Brewers Want Sanchez for Fielder
by Fire Sabean on Jun 30, 2010 5:04 PM PDT
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PrintAccording to Mychael Urban the Brewers want Jonathan Sanchez and Thomas Neal for Prince Fielder..
Is that too much? I can part with Sanchez, but Neal might bite us later on..
He also says the Giants probably won't do it, who would replace Sanchez? We have a few options in AAA and Fielder could be that "big bat" that people want. He's young, too, can you imagine?
Torres, LF
Sanchez, 2B
Fielder, 1B
Huff, LF
Uribe SS
Sandoval, 3B
Posey, C
....sigh.. Rowand.. CF
Pitcher
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"according to a decent source in Milwaukee"
I have a hard time believing that anyone but a better than decent source would actually know this. It would also imply additional trading because there are 3 probable leftys in the rotation next year.
Go for it Sabean
It’s perfect for you. You should add Posey, too…and Bowker.
Hm..Sanchez, Neal, Posey and Bowker. Oh yeah, also volunteer to pay their salaries till free agency.
Seriously, this is the deal you’ve been waiting for.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jun 30, 2010 5:15 PM PDT reply actions
All rumors and speculation. I doubt that’s what Milwaukee really wants.
I wouldn’t be terribly upset if this deal were to go through though. We still wouldn’t be championship contenders, but it beats watching this sad sack of offense everyday. Neal may be good, but do you really believe the Giants will give him a chance? Sigh.
Sabean has shipped off like 5 minors last year
so I’m sure he doesn’t care.. It’s Dirty that he’s worried about
I would do Sanchez straight up
Neal less so. See if you can move them on to a less prospect. Kieshnick or someone.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 30, 2010 5:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
THIS IS NOT GREEN ENOUGH
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I bet they do
Fielder is only under team control for this season ($9.5M) and next (arb eligible after this season, and likely to make $13M at least). So far this season Fielder and Sanchez have been close to equal by WAR (2.0 for Prince, 1.7 for Dirty). Therefore, this proposal is to swap approximately equal players*, except one will cost $18M through the end of 2011 while the other will cost around $6M and is also under team control for an additional year. Also, the Brewers propose that the Giants throw in one of their best prospects.
NO.
- Granted, Prince has been much better than Sanchez in the past, but Sanchez has convinced me that he has arrived. Those who do not believe Sanchez really has “figured it out” might be forgiven for considering this a reasonable proposal provided that Neal is not included.
There's no way they do this without both Sanchez and Neal
And I think you’re right, price tag too high. What if it was Belt instead of Neal?
Fulfilling your Gus Benusa needs since 2009!
by Giantsfan4life on Jun 30, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
How about Zito and Rowand for Fielder. Works for me.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jun 30, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah great reasoning
Makes it look like a terrible deal.
But his offense every day vs. Sanchez’s defense one out of every 5 starts.. does that factor in?
But the real question is . . .
not if this is a good deal, it’s if Sabes will actually do it. We don’t get a vote here, obviously.
Fulfilling your Gus Benusa needs since 2009!
by Giantsfan4life on Jun 30, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Sanchez isn’t actually pitching any better than in the past. His FIPs for the last three years go 3.85, 4.17, 3.85. And Fielder’s a significantly better player than his numbers this year would indicate.
I wouldn’t make the trade because a ham-handed first baseman wouldn’t help the Giants much given their current configuration, but in a vacuum Fielder’s easily worth the extra $ over Sanchez.
If you think Fielder is really two wins better than Sanchez, it’s basically a fair trade. I don’t, but it’s a position that can be supported by evidence.
Then again you’re also quite right that lumbering first basemen aren’t exactly in shortage on the Giants’ roster.
Sure, but really really good lumbering first basemen
We lack.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
I think the question is whether or not Fielder and Martinez/Wellemeyer (Sanchez' replacement in the rotation)
Is worth more, going forward, than Huff/Sanchez.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
This is correct.
That is exactly how this should be measured.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 1, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
wouldn't it be more like
if Fielder and Martinez/Wellemeyer is worth more than Renteria/Sanchez because Renteria will probably lose the most playing time if Fielder is traded for.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Hmmm
Maybe we should lay out what the rosters would look like with each scenario.
/running late
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Christ
No it’s not. You measure it by who gets pushed out of the lineup. Huff would still be in the lineup if we got Fielder.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
BUDDHA!11uno!!11eleven
The point is that you have to measure it against the hit that the rotation will take.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 1, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes
But the direct comparison is probably
Fielder/Martinez VS Renteria/Sanchez
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
I don’t see how Renteria plays into it. My guess is that if this trade went through, Huff would take over right field permanently.
We’d score more runs, but we’d probably be giving up even more. Not only would Sanchez be replaced by a less effective pitcher, but we’d be downgrading our first-base defense and locking ourselves into Burrell/Huff at the outfield corners. That might be the worst defense in baseball.
Renteria plays in to it
You’re right, Huff would take over right field.
The infield would be
Fielder – Sanchez – Uribe – Sandoval
There’s no room for Renteria if we get Fielder, hence why he would be squeezed out. Not super hard to understand.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
So the default infield is Sandoval at first, Uribe at third? That’s awful.
Uribe’s had a nice hot streak, but he and Renteria and Sanchez are all pretty much the same player. It doesn’t matter which two of them start.
i think it does matter to an extent
because uribe is the only one that provides any kind of power out of those three players.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Do this deal and . . .
watch Prince Fielder set a new major league record for IBB. I mean, what’s the record now, 15, 20? Oh, yeah . . .
Fulfilling your Gus Benusa needs since 2009!
The record for IBB is substantially higher than 15 or 20. Unless you mean in a week.
BLT?
slowly dying, one giants game at a time
by SirPsycoSexy on Jul 1, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m not even really sure I want Prince. The chances of signing him to an extension are very slim given that his new agent is Boras. He’s also fat and probably won’t age very well in the event that you even resign him. So basically we’re talking about trading Sanchez (who is cheaper) and Neal (who I wouldn’t want to trade away) for a year and a half of Prince, only to have him walk away for 2 draft picks after 2011. Plus if Prince kept the Giants from being able to resign Timmy or Cain long-term I’d probably scream. Also, think of how many more GIDP that would add to the lineup!
+100
This would be the type of deal to make if we were only one player away from contending for the championship. But, we aren’t now, and we won’t be next year either. Fielder will make us a better offensive team, but he won’t put us over the top. There’s absolutely no way we re-sign him after 2011 – he’ll be gone. If were going to trade a package of Dirty and Neal, we need to get somebody back that we can control for at least 2.5 years.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
But who really fits that description? No one is going to give up an all star talent who is under control for at least 2.5 years for just Dirty and Neal. IMO this is probably the best player we could ever get for just those two.
This seems like a realistic POV to me
"That sort of thing only happens to white people."
- Kirby Puckett joking about the fairy-tale nature of his friend, Cal Ripken Jr., homering in his final All-Star Game
1.5 years.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
completely agree with you Runz
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabes says he doesnt want free agents
And the price is too high, this probably wont happen unless Neal gets swapped..
Hobbes is absolutely right. I have no idea whether life with Fielder would be nasty and brutish, but it certainly would be short. The only way we might profit from Fielder for Sanchez is if Milwaukee would take Sanchez plus Molina, replacing the injured Zaun, so that Posey could catch and Huff continue in LF, and the Giants could be Molina-less—the only way the Giants lineup will be speedier if Fielder is added. As many have said, we don’t need another first baseman either, especially a wooden one. If we are going to trade, let it be for an outfielder.
No no, you want Prince, I promise
Yes, he will probably not age well, and yes, he will be extremely hard to re-sign. But those are both positives.
Dude is 26. He won’t age well, but the year and a half that we would have him would be his prime years (and a contract year!). And then, just as he’s about to decline, he becomes an FA and is out of our price range.
Look, I love Sanchez, but Prince Fielder is a bona-fide superstar capable of a 6 WAR season and a 1.00 OPS. That’s worth giving up a lot for, especially if you mix it in with our pitching (which would, of course, take a hit without Sanchez, but would still be quite good).
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
I’m not even sure this trade makes the team any better at all, even ignoring salary. Is Prince Fielder even close to as much of an improvement over Huff/Sandoval/Posey at 1B as Sanchez is over Wellemeyer/Martinez/Pucetas? I doubt it. And you can’t really ignore salary because Prince makes it financially impossible to upgrade that 5th starter spot.
You're thinking about it wrong
Fielder doesn’t have to be an upgrade over huff/sandoval/posey because all those players will still be in the lineup. At the end of the day, he’ll be an improvement over whoever gets squeezed out, which would probably be Renteria (assuming Fielder/Sanchez/Uribe/Sandoval infield).
So, yes, Fielder is a big enough upgrade over Renteria to justify the trade.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
I think Fielder is the greater improvement because Martinez/Pucetas will only throw once every five games. Also, I like Sanchez but I still see him as inconsistent.
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
yes
sanchez has been very good this year, but even lately he’s shown some inconsistency and this has been his only year where he hasn’t been completely inconsistent, so there’s no guarantee he will ever reach his greatest potential.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
If it was just Sanchez for Prince I’d be more inclined to do it, since Mad Bum could step into the rotation for Sanchez and would be even cheaper. But then we’ll still need to spend $ to find a 5th or 4th starter. It would be nice to have a real trade chip in Prince (if the team continued to suck) and having the option of trading him or getting the 2 draft picks for him after he leaves in FA.
But no way should we give up more than Sanchez. Neal is far too intriguing to just throw in a deal like this.
I agree with this
But I’m utterly and completely perplexed by people who say they don’t want Fielder, period.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
I think they mean . . .
. . . that they don’t want Fielder given his contract length and cost. I think few of them are truly unqualified “period”.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I disagree
since Mad Bum could step into the rotation for Sanchez and would be even cheaper.
MadBum is already in the rotation, so it’s Martinez or Wellemeyer that would be taking Dirty’s place.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Or we could get another starter in a trade
a Millwood/Jeremy Guthrie type
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
This is a strange prospect… If he’s only here for a year-and-a-half, before he’s guaranteed to go the FA route, that means we’d have him while he’s still valuable, and the Red Sox or Rangers can then sign him to a 7 year deal when his value declines. Really not a BAD prospect for the Giants. At least if you think he’s just the type of player the Giants would need to make the playoffs this year.
I might pass, but I’d be really tempted to make that trade. I’m curious what Sabean is thinking about this one.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Done. I will drive Sanchez to the airport and carry his bags for him if it nets us Prince Freaking Fielder
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
This trade doesn’t feel right. If we’re trying to get better now, we shouldn’t be trading away a major part of our rotation. If we’re trying to get better later, we should be focusing on someone we can control for a while.
+1
It doesn’t make any sense. This trade would be fantastic for the Brewers, though, which is why this has evidently leaked out of their FO. But it’s hard to see what the advantage of the deal is from the Giants’ POV. Maybe they’re hoping that the news reports will get the Giants’ fan base excited about the Fielder idea and that will create a little momentum for the idea.
is this official? when was this said? where did you find this?
by ryanstrtddafire99 on Jun 30, 2010 8:02 PM PDT reply actions
No. If they make a deal for the players such as Sanchez and Neal they need to get back younger cheaper talent so they can afford to keep the pitching.
The Giants would have to accept this deal
If a year ago, you had been told that you could get Prince Fielder without giving up Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, or Posey wouldn’t you be ecstatic??
Sanchez has been a major part of our rotation, but even if he leaves we will have 2 great starting pitchers, one above average pitcher, and one young prospect who’s probably going to be a very good fourth starter. Yes, the fifth starter spot would be a weak part of the staff, but it’s easier to get a fifth starter in the offseason than sign a major offensive force. Acquiring our first legit slugger since Barry Bonds would completely make up for the fact that we would be losing a good starting pitcher.
And I think there’s a tendency to overvalue Neal. He probably is the best hitter in our farm system but that’s because our system lacks hitters. On a good team, he’s probably a No. 6 hitter. He’s had one great year in single-A and a couple of okay years but I don’t think keeping him is worth passing up Prince Fielder.
This guy is only 26 and has twice had an OPS over 1.000. Imagine how that would change our offense. Frankly, I’m a little surprised that the Brewers wouldn’t be asking for more. You always have to give up something good to get something good.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jun 30, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Think about it:
Frankly, I’m a little surprised that the Brewers wouldn’t be asking for more. Consider that statement in light of the very real possibility that the Brewers are not imbeciles.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
haha are you agreeing or diasagreeing with that statement?
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jun 30, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that Owlcroft’s point is that the Brewers have their own internal evaluation of Fielder, given his cost and the shortness of team control over him. Their trial balloon of Sanchez and Neal, if that’s the deal they’re angling for, is therefore (they believe) sufficiently more than they think F is worth for them and sufficiently less than would seem too risky for us. Sanchez can keep pitching for them as a #2 or #3 for years, and Neal may be a bonanza, while we get a season and a half of Fielder and then either break the bank or settle for the chancy promise of draft pick compensation when he becomes an AL DH.
okay that's a good point
basically then, I think it makes sense for both teams. The Brewers get a #2 starter and a pretty good prospect. And it makes sense for the Giants because just for their No. 4 starter and a prospect they get one of the best power hitters in the game.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jun 30, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
At a high cost for a short time.
Fielder’s career numbers are certainly better than those Aubrey Huff is putting up right now, but they are not season-changing “franchise”-level better. In fact, Fielder’s 2010 is only trivially better than Huff’s 2010, though arguably neither man’s season is fully representative. But you don’t burn quality players for such relatively small changes, especially when accompanied by a huge contract, a short duration, and potential health problems.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
why does everyone assume he won't re-sign with the giants?
I do think if the Giants were to trade for him they would need to make sure they could extend him. But everyone’s assuming there would be 0% of re-signing him and you can’t make that conclusion yet.
Fielder’s 2010 hasn’t been great but in his best years his OPS has been over 1.000 and he’s still only 26. And even with his current stats he’d be better than almost every hitter on the Giants.
Getting Fielder would not be a small change. If we had to trade Sanchez we’d have 4 very good starting pitchers and one bad pitcher. Plenty of good teams have one bad starter. Even at the beginning of this year when Wellemeyer was our 5th starter, our pitching staff was one of the best in the league. So, essentially with Sanchez gone we’d still have one of the best starting staffs in the league and would add a proven slugger to the lineup.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions
How would we “make sure [we] could extend him”? How could we make sure we could extend him without promising him a long-term, highly expensive commitment, of the sort that is typically unwise, and certainly so for a hippo aspiring to the heft of an orca? The more unwieldy such a player becomes, the more appealing and rational it is for him to work towards becoming a DH, thereby lessening the chance of career-impairing injury.
For those of us who are skeptics, then, the cost of not signing him for 2012-beyond is high (small added value over a short time—Owlcroft’s “huge contract, short duration, and potential health problems”) and the cost of the alternative, bettering the contract he probably can get elsewhere, is also very high and entails enough risk to make one uneasy.
obviously you can't be positive that he will re-sign
but you can get certain indications from him and his agent that h’d be interested in an extension.
Now, it sounds like you wouldn’t want to re-sign him because of his body and worrying that it will break down. That will be a big debate among fans, I guess, and it’s a fair thing to worry about. I’m of the opinion that just because he is a really big guy doesn’t mean he has to break down. Certainly it’d be a risk, so I can understand where you’re coming from. So it would be interesting to see what would happen in that scenario.
I just think a No. 4 starter and a prospect for a 40-HR type of guy would be worth it. Couldn’t the Giants be a potential dangerous playoff team with a playoff rotation of Lincecum-Zito-Cain-Bumgarner and one or two more proven hitters?
I guess we just have different opinions, nothin wrong with that.
Just curious, do you think there’s a better hitter we would be able to get for Sanchez and Neal?
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Boras could "indicate" anything he wants
I wouldn’t believe a word of it unless it includes Fielder’s signature
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
with boras as his agent
He’d be difficult to re-sign, yes. But are we just going to shy away from all guys that are going to demand big contracts?
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 9:18 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes
Because they often end poorly.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
well,
Seeing as the giants are unable to develop their own hitters, free agent hitters don’t want to sign here, and people don’t want to acquire hitters if they’ll need an extension, I’m not sure how the offense will ever improve.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 10:04 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Trading for hitters.
Just don’t extend them!
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
chances are
a team isn’t going to give up a really good power hitter that they have control over for 2-3 years, so we may only be able to get guys like Fielder who have 1.5 years left on their deal.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok then!
Do that!
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
I guess it's just a shame
that the Giants can’t develop their own hitters. Otherwise they’ll keep having to trade very good players for just short-term improvements.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
The point is
If you make the decision to trade for Fielder, fine. Just don’t artifcially inflate his value thinking you’ll re-sign him when he hits FA. At that point, all bets are off.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
that's true
but given that he’d be under team control the Giants would have a head start at extending him, if that’s what they wanted to do.
you can’t just assume that it’s a given that he will not be re-signed.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
but given that he’d be under team control the Giants would have a head start at extending him, if that’s what they wanted to do.
They’d only have a head start if Fielder was interested in an extension. Given that he’s a Boras client, I’d say that’s pretty remote.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
sure
but you should never be afraid to improve your team because a guy might be hard to extend. I mean, any game-changing hitter is going to command a lot of money.
And I don’t think there’s a better hitter on the market that we could get for Sanchez and Neal.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
So say the giants do this deal
Then what about a rowand for zombrano deal. Z takes sanchez’s spot in the rotation and the giants have ridden themselves of both rowand and Molina. I’m not sure how much money the giants would be adding by doing both deals but without really thinking about this too much I think it makes sense.
by travis j bagdad on Jun 30, 2010 10:20 PM PDT reply actions
i think that'd be great
but the Cubs could probably do better than Rowand
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jun 30, 2010 10:23 PM PDT reply actions
"Hey, Ken . . .
. . .why don’t the Giants just trade Johnny LeMaster for Nolan Ryan?"
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
you could say that again
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
It is so slooooww . . .
. . . when I hit “Post” that I sometimes think it lost (which does happen regularly). I don’t know if it’s the SB software, my comical internet connection, or both (the most likely), but it’s a pain. I notice that when I load an SB page, my CPU usage pegs for a while.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Internet connection seems to be the main culprit for me for a double posting
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
"Hey, Ken . . .
. . .why don’t the Giants just trade Johnny LeMaster for Nolan Ryan?"
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I actually like this...
After watching Thomas Neal over the last couple of months here in Richmond, his power doesn’t seem to be as advertised and to be hones I’ve been generally unimpressed. Brandon Crawford is the real star of the Flying Squirrels and Nick Noonan has a good chance to continue to develop given his age. If the Giants could ink Fielder to a long-term deal as part of the trade I think it’s a good move.
Think about it this way. Sanchez is pitching out of his mind this year, and do we expect him to pitch like this the rest of his career? If you say yes, you don’t make this trade. If you say no, you make it.
Thomas Neal is a prospect we have someone to replace (Tommy Joseph) so I am not that against the idea of trading a minor league overachiever who we have an inhouse replacement for in a Prince Fielder trade.
Thomas Neal earned his reputation as this amazing force because Giants fans wanted one when Angel went down on murder charges. He is good, but not great and probably never will be. His ceiling is probably Corey Hart actually. So, if you think Sanchez is pitching over his head, and you agree that Neal is not actually the second coming of Mickey Mantle like he is talked about on this site, then why not trade them for Prince Fielder who is a proven power hitter and scary middle of the order bat (one that would put the Giants into World Series contention with their pitching staff and starting line up). Plus, adding a piece like fielder allows for more free agents to want to sign with a team they believe can with (maybe not Cliff Lee, but certainly other great players)
This is irrelevant to my thoughts on a Fielder trade
But you can’t just replace Neal with Joseph because they’re both named Thomas. They play different positions…
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
Yes, they play different positions, but Tommy Joseph isnt going to stick at Catcher. He won’t be our 1B of the future with Fielder on the team, so by default, they would end up in pretty much the same position…OF.
by Michael Uhlhorn on Jul 1, 2010 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions
This makes no sense at all
Fielder is only under contract for a year and a half, and Joseph will spend more time than that in the minors.
You’re making a lot of assertions, assuming that Joseph won’t stick at catcher (where he’s still playing every day), as well as trying to project prospects YEARS away while using positional variability.
I just don’t understand at all why having Tommy Joseph makes Neal expendable. I, of course, happen to think that Neal is expendable; but not because of ToJo.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
Yes, because we would MUCH rather have Joseph at catcher than BUSTER POSEY.
Joseph is a hitting first player who is in the minors and a couple of years away who will end up in the OF.
Neal is a hitting first player who is in the minors and a couple of years away who is already an OF.
Plus, Fielder would be signed to an extension upon being traded for, which is why I pointed to the 1B position being blocked. I still don’t understand what makes you think Joseph would ever stay at catcher when we have Posey.
by Michael Uhlhorn on Jul 1, 2010 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Your main error is assuming that Fielder would be signed to an extension. He probably wouldn’t be; we don’t have that kind of money.
And Joseph is at least 3-4 years away from the majors. Who knows what Posey will look like then? Who knows what ToJo will look like then?
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
Ok, saying we dont have that kind of money proves you really either dont get the Giants financial situation, or like most Giants fans like to believe that they are similar to Pirates and Marlins fans when it comes to Ownership. The Giants have more than enough money to pay Fielder. The Giants would still make money with a 100 million plus payroll and they are one of 10 teams in the Majors with the ability to spend 18 million or more on a player.
Plus, what does that mean what Posey will look like. Are you saying you expect Joseph to have a better chance at staying behind the plate than one of the most athletic players the Giants have ever drafted? Plus, Joseph is 18, Posey is 22. In 4 years when Joseph hits the majors, Posey will be just starting to hit his prime. No way in hell Joseph supplants Posey.
Plus you don’t know what they will look like, but you can project body type, and the amount Joseph’s muscles and body fat will continue to grow in the next 4 years will take him out from behind the plate, unless of course you would rather have Bengie Molina than Joe Mauer behind the plate because that is basically what you are arguing for.
by Michael Uhlhorn on Jul 1, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Mike Matheny took two balls to the facemask
And never played baseball again.
Projecting 4 years out is nigh impossible.
My only argument was that Tommy Joseph is in no way a similar player to Thomas Neal. They are completely different.
My Son, the best position player on the damn team.
My rule for the 2010 Giants: Everyone with an OPS over .800 gets a pass.
They are. Neal would play a decent outfield, Joseph would be a 42 year old Barry Lamar Bonds. But still, I know that it can happen, but I dont see Joseph as the catcher of the future even if Posey moved back to SS. I think we would look to draft someone else, or there would be a signing. I just don’t think he has the abilities there (playing catcher at low-A Augusta is different than playing it in the Majors: unless you are the Royals cather, then it is basically the same thing).
by Michael Uhlhorn on Jul 1, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Different minor leaguer
I’d seriously consider it with Pill substituted for Neal. Pill is blocked here and seems to have a decent chance of actually helping the Brewers. Neal is higher risk, higher reward at a position where we are weaker. The Zambrano for Rowand (presumably plus someone else in the minors) would only work for me with a manager who has a long track record of effectively handling head cases — not sure who that would be.
Sanchez is most likely our most valuable trade chip. Great stuff, but prone to inconsistency. If he could ever put it all together, he’d be a prime #2/3 pitcher. However, he’s yet to completely arrive… or maybe he has. Maybe he’s never going to gain that solid consistency where you can expect the same guy to show up 8 out of 10 starts. But the point is, Fielder is right now a bona fide middle of the order power bat. There is no one in the system that projects to be that type of hitter. You gotta give up something to get someone like that. I’m not saying it has to be Fielder that we get, but he’s really the only one that fits the bill right now.
BOOK IT!!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 1, 2010 9:08 AM PDT reply actions
So who replaces Sanchez in the rotation?
Wellemeyer?
Martinez?
Is anyone really thinking this all the way through without letting their dingerz gland stand in the way?
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 1, 2010 9:29 AM PDT reply actions
even with wellemeyer as our 5th starter
We still had one of the best pitching staffs in the league, so I think it’d be fine.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 10:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That is because Sanchez was in there
Remove him and replace him with Wellemeyer and we are decidedly not fine.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 1, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
without sanchez
We still have a pretty good rotation, and it could still be a great rotation depending on how Bumgarner performs.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 10:52 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It would be top heavy and probably prove to be league average by the end of the season.
The runs we gain by having Fielder in the lineup will be more than offset by having to rely on Wellemeyer and a 20-year old pitcher who should still be back in AAA.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 1, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
No, we have one ace, one solid #2 guy, and one #3 guy
Bumgarner is the wildcard, but without Sanchez, our rotation is noticeably weaker.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
yeah it'd be weaker obviously
but I think improving the offense significantly makes up for that.
And Sanchez is 27 right now, has always been inconsistent and has a career ERA of 4.50. Sure he’s had a solid year this year, but even his last few starts have been inconsistent. Can we really be sure that a guy with that kind of career ERA and a history of being inconsistent is going to stay solid all year? Is he really worth passing up on Fielder?
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions
If Sanchez is the main piece they want then they won’t balk at doing the deal without Neal involved. Should Fielder walk in a year and a half then we will be once again in need of hitting, and with our system that sorely lacks hitters, trading away one of our better hitting prospects is not the right route. Especially since in a year and a half we will probably be starting to see Neal crack the bigs.
Replace Neal with a pitcher, most likely a reliever, and the deal makes more sense for us. It makes more sense for them too since they need all kinds of pitching.
We just traded who for who?!
yeah this would be the best situation
If they could be convinced to take someone besdies beal if sanchez is who they’re really targeting.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 10:19 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
They don’t need relievers. What’s the reasoning that leads to the conclusion that taking something out of the deal won’t affect it?
yeah the brewers most likely wouldn't go for a reliever
it’d have to be a starting pitcher.
My love for Buster Posey isn't unhealthy. Or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
by 8thInningWeirdness on Jul 1, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Without any thought or analysis I say go for it.
I JUST WANT TO SEE SOME SLUGGING!
Kyle Stratford : Brian Sabean :: Toby Flenderson : Michael Scott
I think I make this deal
but I want to make sure that I can get another starter. My pitcher of choice would be Jeremy Guthrie from the O’s
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
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