One more take on Armando Galarraga's perfect game...
by Grant Brisbee on Jun 3, 2010 2:41 PM PDT
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PrintEver since I was a wee nerd picking nerdberries on my gammie’s farm, I’ve thought about hypothetical situations similar to what happened in last night’s Tigers game. This, of course, because, as a nerd, I wasn’t thinking about girls or cars or whatever. But I would think, "Okay, two outs, bottom of the ninth, runners on second and third in Game Seven of the World Series with the home team down by one. Line drive to center, the outfielder dives and catches it, but the umpire flubs the call and rules a ‘no-catch’. Two runs score, World Series over, the wrong team wins. What would happen?"
It was a ridiculous, yet realistic, scenario. Would the team that got jobbed pretend like they were the real winners, holding parades and printing up "World Champions" memorabilia? Would MLB officially award the championship to the losing team? Would MLB just say, "Whoops, but them’s the breaks, and the call stands?"
It’s two decades later, and I’ve a) driven a car, b) kissed a girl, and now c) have a pretty good idea what Major League Baseball would say in a situation like that: Whoops, but them’s the breaks, and the call stands. The thing is, it happened.
I can appreciate the argument. Every baseball game is made up of hundreds of judgment calls. Most are right, some are wrong. It would be impossible to go back and correct every single one, so the league takes a hard stance. If there can’t be perfection, the imperfections of human umpires will have to be a part of the game, no exceptions.
What I can’t figure out, though, is how reversing the call in this particular situation – the last out of a perfect game – would set any sort of precedent. It doesn’t apply to my hypothetical situation – the outcome of the game wasn’t in question. It doesn’t apply to any controversial call in the middle of a one-hitter.
So what is the argument against Bud Selig reversing the call and granting Galarraga the perfect game? This is an honest question. I really want to know the argument. Here are the only two I can think of:
"Umpires are part of the charm of the game! Each one is flawed like a corpulent, mustachioed diamond, which is part of what makes the game great!" –This isn’t good enough for me. Armando Galarraga pitched a perfect game. That’s the sort of thing that makes the game great. Eric Gregg’s strike zone, Bob Davidson’s balk fetish, and Tim Tschida’s general asshattery are something we live with, not celebrate.
Maybe the umpire’s union wouldn’t want MLB retroactively undermining their work – I can understand this one, but I think they’d be thrilled to let Jim Joyce become "the man who prevented an on-field celebration" rather than "the man whose incompetence ruined one of the rarest feats in sports." Reverse this one, and then make this kind of last-out situation reviewable as if it were a home run.
What am I missing? I just don’t see a downside to reversing the call, but I’m willing to admit that there’s a good reason I just haven’t thought of.
Also of note: seven years after the Big Cat left, and I still hate trying to spell "Galarraga."
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Just because you post a picture of a cute kid doesn’t prove you can drive a car.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
Non sequitur
What does kissing girls have to do with cute kids?
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
Not directly.
Many obstacles between kiss and kids.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
no, not directly
however, one thing often does lead to another i.e.:
kissing —> heavy petting —> dry humping —> fondling —> unwrapping —> fucking —> accidental breakage —> babbys
easy as cake
...Dr. Vader will see you now.
Dry humping is so lame.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, it’s not as good as wet humping — that’s for sure.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Dry anything-with-a-penis is pretty lame, come to think of it.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Martini?
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
A penis is a pretty lame olive, man.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
irl lol
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
Seriously, that made me do a spit take
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
is apple pie considered dry or wet?
Just wanting to keep things clear.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
If you’re staying outside the crust, that’s dry-humping the apple pie. If you’re penetrating, that’s wet.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I dunno.
I remember enjoying it at the time.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
It was lame.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s good that the two of you have an open line of communication but this is probably something you two should discuss in private.
Or with them.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Jail time?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Look, I just wanted to post a picture of my kid and also get in on the ground floor of this wild new Xzibit meme.
by Grant Brisbee on Jun 3, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Cute kid would be cute.
If it weren’t for all those already-obvious psychic scars. Does CPS know you’re raising her to be a Giants fan?
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I do have two cute kids...
…but on the other hand, I biked to work today. So I’m still confused.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
Well it’s not gonna stay secret for long if you keep blabbing about it.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
/pulls hand back from handshake. Waves instead.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jun 3, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Not on the mouth.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, usually at least 1 mouth is involved
AMIRITE, Russell Martin?
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
kiss (v): to touch with the lips especially as a mark of affection or greeting
kiss (n): a caress with the lips
Doesn’t say anything about the mouth.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Huh.
Well I guess I learned something today
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Are we not considering the lips to be a part of the mouth?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
We’re simply acknowledging that the mouth is not the only place to find lips.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
You must know some very talented ladies.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Jayne Cobb?
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
goldengatebeerbars.com
by troymccluresf on Jun 4, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Why don’t we leave WalrusMan out of this?
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by KTJ on Jun 3, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, I love that I just noticed the 300-comment poll as I was just finishing this. Enjoy your lunch conversations, everyone.
Turkey on Toasted White with Spicy Mustard. Minestrone Soup.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
Leftover pizza, but it was Pizza My Heart’s apple/sausage/Gorgonzola pizza, so it was cool.
by Grant Brisbee on Jun 3, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Scrabble-valid anagram of MINESTRONE
MENTIONERS
Anagram of "Giants pitcher Matt Cain" = TRAGIC MAN, ISN'T PATHETIC
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jun 3, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Salad.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Nothing
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
You are the skinniest viking I’ve ever met.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
172 pounds!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Congrats. Is that your fighting weight?
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
My doc says that my weight is pretty much what it should be.
I’ve never had to actually try to stay thin. I just don’t have a big appetite.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I had a dream that I was working for you and you have me 49ers memorobilia and you were 300 pounds and you signed my paychecks “Lars the Wanderer”.
I’ve been having unsettling dreams recently.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
gave me, not have me.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I would have you, Howie
I would definitely have you.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
This doesn’t bode well for my next dream….
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you think I was paying you in your last dream?
SERVICES RENDERED!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Lars and Howie sitting in a tree…
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
t-a-l-k-i-n-g
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Boo. You’re no fun.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
new indie drama
Lars And The Real Howie.
a story about a lonely man who finds companionship and love in a life-sized doll….named Howie.
...Dr. Vader will see you now.
Peanut Butter Jelly Time!
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
Leftover roasted pork loin with spicy couscous and corn.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Jun 3, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Three pieces of chicken.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
That is what I had yesterday, along with a waffle from Little Skillet. Fried chicken and waffles FTW.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Jun 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Henry Hunan.....Marty's Special & a Diana's Meat Pie
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
Too bad. Frice is delicious.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I had a late lunch
which was also a late breakfast.
Sausage and pancakes.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Apple Pie and 7 UP
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL GC
pics or you’re an ant.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Or a teen.
I lived entire summers on Cheez-Its, Reese’s Cups, and orange soda.
(To answer your next question, I’m 6’3" and have never touched 165 pounds in my life.)
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
There's salt in that
and some remnants of peanuts in Reese’s. GC usually lists entire meals of sugary stuff which always amaze me. His sugar rushes and crashes must be epic.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Last summer I lost weight even though I only exercised like twice a month
cuz I’d wake up at noon, not be hungry until around 4, and at that point I could just wait until dinner
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
That describes my entire life. When my parents took me in for my two-week check-up, the doctor poked and prodded and measured and finally asked,
“How often are you feeding him?”
“Oh, you know, he wakes up about three times a day- about breakfast, lunch, and dinner times- and we feed him each time.”
“You wake him up every two hours and feed him, or I’m putting him in the hospital for failure to thrive.”
“Oh. Damn. OK. Pssst! Honey! If the baby wants to sleep through the night, we’re gonna let him, right? Right.”
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
well, I understand
it’s hard to read with all the concubines and sycophants distracting you as you recline on a settee eating grapes.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve been making these salads at whole foods:
mixed greens
garbanzo beans
shredded carrots
shredded cucumbers
shredded beets
some crumbled blue cheese
dried cranberries (key ingredient)
walnuts
sunflower seeds
roasted chicken
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
Homemade Chicken Salad on Wheat
lovingly prepared by Mrs. nvsfg, with a vanilla yougurt, fresh raspberries, and a granny smith apple.
Adopted Son:Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
Whoops, dem's da breakz
But a “perfect game” (made up title for a certain sequence of at bats) isn’t the same thing as “winning the world series”.
Can’t we just call it a perfect game in the record books? Without changing anything?
Daniel Turpen is a Giant Beaver
That's what I was thinking.
Add a footnote at the end of the boxscore or something.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 3, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I like to argue with myself
If the call happened in the third inning, this would be a non story.
Daniel Turpen is a Giant Beaver
A video ump — VUMP. The umpires on the field are there to make on the spot calls to maintain the flow and pace of the game, the vump is there to guarantee that, when visually obviously, the right call was made. If a call’s wrong, play that alarm sound from Kill Bill.
by Every6thDay on Jun 3, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still forget that Braden threw a perfect game three (four?) weeks ago
So I think this controversy will actually make this game, and henceforce, Galarrago more popular and memorable.
All I can think of, though, is that the play did not change the outcome of the game, and if the call had happened in the third inning nobody would think twice about it.
It was Dallas Braden who threw the perfect game right? :)
It takes neither courage nor intelligence to cheer for a team only when that team wins. The true test of a fan's mettle is the same as it is for a player: Were you there when you were needed?
aka Solace
Perfect games are like Muni buses
You wait forever for one, and then four come along at once!
Hello? Is this thing on?
Giants Baseball: TORTURE
Seriously, this is getting ridiculous
In the 5 baseball months since Jonathan Sanchez’s no-hitter, there have been 4* perfect games and 1 other no-hitter.
by RoyaleWithCheese on Jun 3, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
4?
Mat Latos?
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
braden, halladay, galarraga, buherle
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Oh right. forgot about last season.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
SANCHEZ
UUUUUUUUUUUURIBE!
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t understand the argument “for” overruling the play. What would exactly change? If I’m not mistaken, this is a team sport and the team still won. The ‘record books’ are not the reason I watch this game.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
by ResDog on Jun 3, 2010 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You do not understand that it would go from being a 1-hit shutout to a 0-baserunner victory? And Baseball is watched for the achievement. Wins and losses go in the record books, too.
The moment is over. The wins & losses determine the outcome of the season. This call does not.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
I can see the argument for overturning a call that would effect (affect?) the outcome of a game. I’m not sure if I’d agree with overturning it, but I understand the logic behind it.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
No one knows what calls WOULD affect the outcome of a game (aside from a 27th out). It can only be guessed what COULD have affected the game.
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
goldengatebeerbars.com
by troymccluresf on Jun 3, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
So you don’t care about individual historic achievements in the sport at all? Seriously?
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
I care
I just think a lot of times MLB (not baseball, but MLB) gets carried away with the individual achievements. It’s a nice side story, but it shouldn’t overshadow the game being played.
And a reversal in this case would be for the good of the individual achievement, not the game itself.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
This is true. And honestly, the whole concept of the perfect game as it’s currently recognized, as an individual accomplishment, bugs me. Galarraga got 3 outs last night. His teammates got the other 24 or 25. It’s a team game.
If it doesn't hurt the game itself, I don't see why that is a problem, though
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
It would be a i baserunner, no hit, no error, 28 batters faced perfect game.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m using roman numberals….
That was also a typo, but it amuses me so I’m leaving it.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
NUMBERALS (n)
Numerical data fabricated by committed partisans in order to further a decidedly left-wing agenda. (see also: CONSERVATISTICS)
Anagram of "Giants pitcher Matt Cain" = TRAGIC MAN, ISN'T PATHETIC
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jun 3, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
This seems to be Selig's argument for not reversing the call
It amuses me so I’m leaving it"
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Hell, call it a 1 baserunner, 1 hit, no error, 28 batters faced perfect game.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm in this camp
If you can retroactively overrule the umpire in a trivial case like this, where it doesn’t affect the game outcome, then you have more of an argument to overrule him when it’s actually important.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
It still doesn’t mean you have one. So before you had no argument, now you’ve got half an argument. Still not an argument.
Goodbye, Steven Johnson, we hardly knew ye. Seriously, that was short.
But then you have less than half an argument to overrule in this specific case.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
Maybe I should clarify
Overruling an umpire after the game is an extraordinary act by the commissioner; it should only be done when it really matters.
I believe that the result of the game, any game, matters far more in this regard than the individual achievement of a perfect game (or no-hitter, hitting streak, whatever).
So if you are willing to overrule in the second case, you should be MORE willing to overrule in the first. To me the argument that you can overrule in this case because it wouldn’t affect the outcome of the game is exactly backwards – that’s an argument in favor of leaving things alone.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
While I agree with your logic,
it doesn’t rule out a change in this case.
If a runner was scoring a go ahead run on that play and the wrong team won because of a bad call, it should also be reviewed. The thing is SELIG WONT HAVE TO ARBITRARILY CHERRY PICK GAMES THAT HE FEELS THE URGE TO CHANGE IF THERE IS A GOOD REPLAY SYSTEM IN PLACE. There would be no need for Selig to get involved if a reviewer in the booth could watch a replay on the fly and tell eh crew chief to change the call.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
Correct
I’m not necessarily against a replay system, only against arbitrary interference by the commissioner.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
This is why I would be fine with them changing the call. The substantive outcome of the game remains the same; it’s only the way we talk about it after the fact that would change. No harm done, everyone’s happy (probably even Jason Donald), justice is served.
I don't believe the results should ever be changed
You play by the rules and accept the results. Galarraga understand this. If you want to argue for changing the rules (adding instant replay options) then fine, but you can’t just change the rules because an injustice is done.
There was no ruling to overturn here by the commissioner. It was a judgment call that relied on poor judgment. The real issue here for me is why the umpire did not at least consult with the other umpires to make sure that they didn’t see something else. That was the time to make the correction. Once the next batter came up the die was cast.
… and the counterpoint, of course, is that by the rules the runner was out and it was a perfect game. The rules were incorrectly applied by the umpire in the heat of the moment.
One can go around and around about it and everyone’s still right. I just don’t see any particular harm in recognizing reality in this case and calling it a perfect game. Nobody loses.
“Nobody loses.”
Un-American!
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
"By the rules"
The runner was safe because the umpire called him safe. It may have been the wrong call but “by the rules” the runner is safe.
You really need to learn the difference between the rules and what actually happens.
No, by the rules, the runner is out because the ump called him out.
Even when the ump is wrong.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
I think Evan’s more right than you. The “rules” clearly describe the difference between “out” and “safe”. By those definitions of the rules, the runner was “out”. We all know the ump blew the call, so his bad ruling stands, but the rule books I’ve read are less clear about blown calls.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
By the rules,
whatever the umpire calls is the result and since it is a judgment call it cannot be protested.
This
What constitutes a judgment call versus rule has been defined 3 thousand years ago and has been the same forever.
There really is nothing to argue about. No protest = Selig couldn’t make a decision. Furthermore, because an out/safe call is defined as judgment, the protest would have been overruled anyway.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Isn't a swing/no-swing call a judgement call by the home plate ump that can be overturned on appeal?
Or a home run call where the umps huddle up or use replay.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Neither of those would constitute a valid protest
Especially your HR comparison. Out/Safe is not reviewable.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Out/safe is not reviewable?
What if it’s a home run call?
Example: Batter hits a ball near the top of the wall that bounces back on the field and the batter is thrown out at second. If the umps decide the ball was actually an HR, doesn’t that reverse an out/safe call?
What about a swing/no-swing appeal on a full count?
If the plate ump rules the batter did not swing at ball four, but it’s ruled a swing on appeal, isn’t that reversing an out/safe call?
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
But a hr is a true out come. So its not an arbitrary ruling on how many bases to award the runner, and if its not a HR then the runner is out.
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
by say hey nation on Jun 3, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
No, It Is Not
It happens on the field before another play and at the option of the home ump
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
This isn't my opinion
It is how it is defined.
Like I said earlier, I am not sure what people are arguing about. This situation is clearly covered in the rulebook.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
If the ball was actually a home run,
then the play at second never happened. So you aren’t reversing it, you’re negating it.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Sort Of.
The catcher can ask the homeplate ump to ask for help from the 1b ump (if righthanded hitter) or 3b ump (if lefthanded hitter) but the homeplate it is up to the homeplate ump to deicide if he wants or needs this help, Many times they choose not to seek help and they are not required to.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions
The real issue here for me is why the umpire did not at least consult with the other umpires to make sure that they didn’t see something else.
I believe Joyce was asked this in his postgame press conference (the volume is low on the reporters), and I believe he said that that is not a legal move.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I think this is correct. They’re not allowed to consult, probably because once an out call is made, everyone stops, so you can’t revoke it.
There need to be some exceptions, obviously.
You really shouldn't comment on things you don't understand.
Joyce can ask for help if he thinks he needs it. Only he knows whether he needs it and obviously he thought he didn’t. It is not uncommon for a first base umpire to ask the HPU for help on a foot on the bag issue or if he gets blocked out on a play by other fielders.
Since he felt he saw the play, technically he is correct that he should not ask for help.
LOL
You really shouldn’t comment on things you don’t understand.
Physician, heal thyself.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
"because once an out call is made, everyone stops, so you can’t revoke it."
You’ve really never seen a call overturned?
You’ve never seen an umpire ask for help after a play is over?
An umpire’s number one priority is to get the call right. While I admit to not knowing every rule in place for MLB umpires I certainly do know that they have the option to ask for help on a play after they make a call if they feel they did not see the play.
Look:
Jim Joyce has been umpiring since 1989. He knows the rules. In the postgame press conference last night, a reporter asked if Joyce could’ve asked for help there. Joyce said no, that’s against the rules.
There’s just no argument here.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
And Jim Joyce is never wrong, damn it!
:-)
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
by Goofus on Jun 3, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t know every rule either. My impression is that they can convene to discuss fair/foul calls, home run calls, and that sort of thing, but not out/safe calls. If they can discuss out/safe calls, then that’s a good thing, and the whole crew should be ashamed of themselves for not doing it last night.
Asking For Help On The Field From His Fellow Umps Before The Next Play Does Happen
But it is the choice of the ump and does not have to happen. There is no review process to change these calls after the game is over or even after the next play has occured.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Once he swings his arms right and says “SAFE” then it’s over. If he would have stopped before signaling, then yes… he could have consulted his peers.
I don't know all the MLB rules (and they are probably intentionally vague)
but I know in most leagues I have umpired this is not always the case.
If I am umpiring the bases, I must make a safe call on a play at first when I get blocked out on whether or not the first baseman caught the foul side of first base with his foot (you cannot assume an out). If protested, however, I can appeal to my partner doing home plate to see if they saw the play. If they did and saw that the runner was out, it is my obligation to change the call to make it right.
One of the golden rules of umpiring is to get the play right.
Yes, the outcome of the games is what's truly important
But sports, and especially baseball, is very much oriented around individual achievements. This is why we care about round numbers so much: 500 homeruns, 300 wins, etc. This is why we care about records so much: i.e. homeruns.
Maybe those are nothing to you. That’s fine. But individual achievements mean a lot to a lot of people. Therefore it is a relevant question as to whether the call should be over-turned.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Agreed. In a vacuum, I can understand the argument, but this is earth, and perfect games (and HR records, etc) do absolutely matter.
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
goldengatebeerbars.com
by troymccluresf on Jun 3, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
DAMMIT, ResDog
Yours is the first serious answer to Grant.
Couldn’t you just tell us what you had for lunch?
Proud father of Alex and Fred Lewis.
I ain't denyin' there wasn't no bottle.
I DID! I CHIMED IN FIRST. TURKEY ON TOAST!
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
Oh . . .
. . . . sorry.
Proud father of Alex and Fred Lewis.
I ain't denyin' there wasn't no bottle.
Mmm....nerdberry pie is delicious
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 2:52 PM PDT reply actions
I just typed up some long post, and by the end of it, I really just resaid what everyone else said. I’m all for conforming, but meh, gonna just save some E trees
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
Adopted parent of good old Wendell, he tries so hard. You'll get a hit someday son!
by theghostofjasonellison on Jun 3, 2010 2:52 PM PDT reply actions
Instant Replay
It’s time.
However, this particular decision should not be overturned. There was no rules intepretation issue. No protest was filed and the commisioner cannot just arbitrarily decide to overrule an umpire’s decision without a formal protest.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 2:56 PM PDT reply actions
Agreed.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Jun 3, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
This
Anything else would be munching Pandora’s box.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
At least Pandora would probably enjoy that.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Jun 3, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
So
Why wasn’t a protest filed?
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Because it is a jugdment call.
Protests are for when umpires do not correctly apply the rules of the game.
YES
This is my take as well. Once the next batter it was over. The umpire should have consulted with the other umpires after the call to see if anyone else saw it differently.
I might be for very limited instant replay. Something like each side getting 1 challenge per game (and keeping it if they are correct).
Perfect Games are the new Cycle
In the post-PED era, there will be a perfect game once a month. Do you really want Bud’s fingerprints all of the place that often?
If you can't sign a hitter to play in China Basin, trade a pitcher for a hitter and then sign another pitcher... why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
Statistical Anomaly vs. Post-PED Hysteria
I can make arguments for both. Although it must be considered that pitchers were PED users as well.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
Eric (LA) It seems ridiculous to hear radio and TV people saying that these perfect games/no-hitters CLEARLY mean that steroids are out of the sport. Are they not aware pitchers used them just as often?
Klaw (1:18 PM)
They’re telling you, subconsciously, to change the station, because that assertion is flawed on so many levels that I’d have to spend the rest of the chat tearing it apart.
It has nothing to do with performance enhancing drugs. It would be crazier if all 21 games were spaced evenly over history. Randomness is Randomness.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Not quite.
Randomness is imelhaven.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Or maybe its the large league and less equality between the reach and poor clubs.
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
by say hey nation on Jun 3, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Tigers, Indian?
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
by say hey nation on Jun 4, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Two questions for you
One, do you really believe we are in the “post-PED era”? And two (as has already been noted), PED’s were available to pitchers as well (and there’s some conjecture pitchers would benefit more from them than hitters).
Pacifist ass-kisser
A perfect game is 27 up, 27 down. It’s never mattered whose fault it is, if there are 28 batters it’s not a perfect game. Getting 28 outs without a baserunner, like Galarraga (or Jonathan Sanchez) did is actually more impressive from the pitcher’s standpoint, but they’re still not “perfect” games. It’s kind of a stupid statistic IMO, but I don’t think the definition should be changed.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
Oops, Sanchez gave up a baserunner. But he earned 28 outs.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
If Armando ever goes out with a popular singer -
Lady Galarraga
/Win the inning
//Renteria - Still not a VD but I crush a lot
///Willism is Realism
Lady Galarragaga.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the ring of Lady Gagalarraga better.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
Lady Gagalarragaga.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Ooo la la.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
He kissed a girl and he liked it.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
{sits back in chair, notepad in hand}
Tell me more about this “kissing”.
Proud father of Alex and Fred Lewis.
I ain't denyin' there wasn't no bottle.
First answer me this question: Do you like the taste of cherry chapstick?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
GRANT FORMED BABBYS!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I've analyzed it
Bengie was the best in the league last year, making outs 72% of the time.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I’d like to see 10000 Monte Carlo simulations to see how often a team full of Molina’s gets perfected.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Wait until Selig decides what to do. The opposite of what he decides will be the best thing to do.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
what's the opposite of nothing?
It’s his go-to choice.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
what’s the opposite of nothing?
Liberal doses of God Bless America?
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
LOL! Liberals hate America; I thought everyone knew that.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
The opposite of nothing?
Bengie Molina, I believe.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Colin Cowherd brought up the point this morning that a lot of umpires are in their 50s. Guys in their 50s tend to suffer from declining vision (which is a big deal when calling balls and strikes and home run/foul calls) and if the same guys are also out of shape they might be late getting into a good position to see bang-bang plays.
I’m not saying either one of these factors is why Jim Joyce missed the call last night—after all, he’s a well-respected ump who’s been doing this for 20 years—but maybe their should be an age limit for umpires. Or at least MLB should put a concerted effort into bringing along a new generation of umpires in their 30s.
Giants Baseball: TORTURE
has little to do with age
i have seen plenty of bad calls this season…from all ages
something is very wrong and most times it is because the ump has not positioned himself well
watch the play again
the ump is inside the line, when he should be outside
he is very lackadaisical setting up to call the play
84% of what Colin Cowherd says
is meant to incite argument and calls from dumb people he can effortlessly slay on national radio. It’s a proven fact. SCIENCE! if you will.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
Umpires asking for help
Help me with the rules here.
Could the ump, very shortly, like in seconds after he made the call, have turned to his fellow umps and said, “maybe I missed it, what did you see?” and then reversed the call if they convinced him he was wrong?
I thinks most umps have big chips on their shoulders about being wrong but what is more important, getting it right or their egos?
Radical Racing
It’s not likely, but it does happen in MLB. Weird thing is, Joyce was SURE the runner was safe, so he probably wouldn’t have, despite (apparently) being a humble guy.
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
goldengatebeerbars.com
by troymccluresf on Jun 3, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Crew chief should have bailed him out if he saw the play
I know that the call is not his responsibility but if he saw it and he’s the crew chief he should have ran over, talked briefly to Joyce and changed the call. Worst case scenario Joyce is offended but then relieved when he sees the video.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
Dumb rule.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
Not so
Unless things have changed an umpire can always ask for help.
Usually they won’t though due to their egos. In this case, Joyce should have realized the impact of his call and asked for a conference.
He is the crew chief, isn’t he?
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
goldengatebeerbars.com
by troymccluresf on Jun 3, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I wasn't sure, but if so,
I wonder if he would have gotten bailed out if he wasn’t.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
this for sure
I think under the circumstances it might have done nothing because he was, you know, looking right at it.
But they should be doing that much more often than now, which is almost never.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Against the rules.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Wonder if there’d be much of an outcry if the situation was reversed and Joyce’s call was “out” when a runner was clearly safe, thus preserving (or manufacturing) history…
Plus History Was Made
With things as they are this game will be remembered more then the 20 other games that are officially perfect games. Changing the call would be like rewriting history to be what we want it to be rather then what it was. Even more important, in this case rewriting history will actually deprive Galarraga of some of the uniqueness and thus specialness of this accomplishment.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I mean what if they went back and replayed that game
After George Brett was called out for having too much Pine Tar? That would have been absurd. Rewriting that history would have deprived George Brett of some of the uniqueness and thus specialness of that moment.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
They overturned that call
Chasm?
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
That Was The Umps Failing To Correctly Interprut The Rules
Thus it was challengeable. This call was not challangeable as it was just a judgment call.
Why are these simple facts so hard to understand? Or are you just ignorant of the rules?
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't get this
judgment vs. interpret. Rules are rules. By my perspective the situations are the same.
Either the pine tar was against the rules or it wasn’t. If it wasn’t then the homerun should be allowed.
Either he was safe or he wasn’t. If he wasn’t safe then Galaragga should have pitched a perfect game.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Games Can And Are Played Under Protest
If a team feels that the umps did not interrupt the rules correctly then then can play the game under portest and have this reviewed. If the review agrees with them the game is then replayed for the point of this protest. Judgments calls are not reviewable. If a team protests a judgment call the protest will be denied on this grounds only without any review of the correctness of the call.
Now do you really not understand the difference between judgment calls by the umps (safe/out, ball/strike, fielder interference with hitter/baserunner , hitter/baserunner interference with fielder, balk, etc) and rules interpretations like penalty for pine tar above label? If you are this ignorant you should not be commenting.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Now do you really not understand the difference between judgment calls by the umps (safe/out, ball/strike, fielder interference with hitter/baserunner , hitter/baserunner interference with fielder, balk, etc) and rules interpretations like penalty for pine tar above label?
I laid out my case very simply. You didn’t respond to anything I said. You decided to be a dick, instead. So good day.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
No, I'm Using Your Own Argument
I am well aware of the fact that the final interpretation is the fact the rule was applied incorrectly, and thus they brought the game back.
The point is, your argument of somehow this robs the kid of the uniqueness and specialness of the accomplishment is absolutely ridiculous. It will add to it, not subtract from it.
You are not arguing the technical aspect that this should not be overturned because it was a human call. You are challenging that history should not be rewritten once it has passed. If that is the case, incorrectly applying the rule was part of history. Retroactively restarting the game, changing box scores, is rewriting history.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
But it DOESN'T rob him of the uniqueness of the moment. It's MORE unique now.
How many non-baseball fans heard about Buehrle, Braden, or Halladay? In our rush to say OMG, poor Galarraga isn’t on the list of guys with a zero in the right column, folks seem to have forgotten that baseball is a game of stories. The numbers are fun and fascinating, but not without the context of the stories associated with them. What’s a cooler about the LeMaster story: that his OPS+ is the absurdly low, or that he changed his jersey name to BOO?
In Phantom Tollbooth terms, I side with Dictionopolis over Digitopolis.
I love fantasy baseball, but it’s like someone said “how can we make baseball more like the stock market?”
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
“How many non-baseball fans heard about Buehrle, Braden, or Halladay?”
They weren’t on The Today Show — featuring that delightful Natalie Morales — like Galarraga was, I’ll tell you that.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the human element in the game. I like the long-standing tradition of umpires being right because they’re umpires. I like how bad calls, like horribly timed errors and terrible trades, are a part of baseball lore. I like that for all the talk about baseball’s slow pace, the game is not burdened with constant umpire meetings and interminable pauses while the official in the booth looks over the video. I like that over a long season, teams must overcome bad calls just like they must overcome injuries, bad bounces and the terrible slumps that might, in fact, only be statistical blips but feel like agony. A long baseball season to me is the best challenge in team sports.
So, yes, I like all those things … but nostalgia is no way to run a business. I think baseball’s credibility long term cannot be maintained as long as every baseball fan in the entire world with a television or an Internet connection can know — really know — within a few seconds that the ump blew the call. That just can’t last. I think it’s beyond naive for the people who run baseball to think they can shut out technology. I believe I’ve made this point before: It’s like that moment in the movie "War Games" when the computer was figuring out the codes to launch nuclear missiles and the computer operators raced over to the General to tell him the horrifying news, and he said: "Well just unplug the damned thing." Baseball can keep controversial replays off their ballpark jumbotrons and video boards, and they can fine players and managers for saying that an umpire blew a call. But they cannot unplug 50-plus years of technological advancement. And it’s foolish to try.
— Joe Posnanski
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I totally agree.
But that’s not really my point.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
uh oh
grm is right on this.
is it 2012 already?
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Much To My Surprise, I Agre With GRM
Who woulda thunk?
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I know, right
It kinda stings at first, then you start to question who you really are at your core, but then you get used to it — just like sex in prison.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s for me and my cellmate to know, and you to find out.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably not as much
But I think there would be some.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Besides
Taking away a special achievement like this is much more egregious than slightly helping to create one.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
I think it was also pretty crappy of Bud to allow hope to float by announcing the "consideration"...
…and then dashing it.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jun 3, 2010 3:07 PM PDT reply actions
Typical Bud
I would be way more comfortable if Bud overruled the call than if this incident were used as a basis for using replays in general in the future.
Yes, he should've shot from the hip and made a knee-jerk decision.
Why would he want to take a little time to think about what would’ve been the most dramatic move of his entire term as commissioner?
/My god, I’m agreeing with GRM and Selig. I feel faint.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
No, wait, I'm sorry I didn't elaborate.
(But when I kneejerked this through my head it didn’t sound quite wholesome either so I blurted the primary hoping no one would, well, do that.)
He takes his time. But no one knows. That way if he doesn’t reverse it there’s no revived expectation.
Hell, we don’t even need to know he pondered it.
See? It sucks.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jun 4, 2010 2:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m in favor of this overturn.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
i’m more of a turnover guy
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Turnover Guy
Worst superhero I’ve ever seen.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Apple Turnover with bacon Vanilla Ice Cream
http://nycfoodguy.com/2010/04/09/bbotw-village-tart/
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Turnover Guy's secret identity?
Alex Smith!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Apple fritters crush apple turnovers.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
Apple fritters are all kinds of awesome.
Proud to be the official MCC sponsor of The New Problem
by rightcenterfielder on Jun 3, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
It's like the perfect junk food.
Crispy and soft at the same time, sugar coated, apples, cinnamon…
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
No chocolate.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Just get the call right
it wasn’t even a bang bang play. he was out by a step, easily. how this call was missed can only be attributed to brain flatulence. And at the end of a perfect game, Joyce should probably be thinking that any close play has to go to the Tigers. That’d be more defensible.
Also, Selig HAS THE POWER TO CHANGE this call. Since he’s been granted this power, for whatever reason, changing the call isn’t some affront to the game. Like other rules, it’s a rule of the game, just a different kinda rule than safe or out. It wouldn’t exactly be making it up as we go along, though it would precedence setting. I say this and I consider myself a no DH, no astro-turf, no All-Star game counts, no interleague baseball traditionalist.
Here, it is an obvious blown call. it wasn’t a bang bang play. it wasn’t a tie goes to the runner situation. it didn’t impact the outcome of the game and he retired the next guy easily for the 28th out. How hard would it be to just alter the box-score. 1 guy would lose an at bat in which he made an out. His avg would go up! Galarraga’s whip would go down a little. that’s it. that’s what we’re talking about changing. that’s nothing.
anyway, we hear all the time that the most important thing is that the umps get the call right, even if it takes time. Changing it would be getting the call right and nobody would rightly complain that he really was safe and it’s unfair to call him out now.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 3, 2010 3:26 PM PDT reply actions
how does selig have the power to change the call
where does it say that in the rule book
hey. I could be wrong. I’ve heard all day that the Commish has the authority to change it and decided against it. That conclusive enough to me. Anyway, a prior commish upheld Brett’s homer in the pine tar game and had the game resume from that point, so it seems he has the authority to overrule umpire decisions.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 3, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
He really doesn't
He can decide to uphold or reject a protest. None was filed.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I assume that falls under the commissioner’s broad power to act “in the best interests of baseball”.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
And it’s in the “best interests of baseball” to play the game according to the rules.
The rules state that the umpire’s decision there is final. No consultation, no replay, no commissioner bowing to populist outcry.
The rules may suck, and we all hope they change ASAP, but there it is.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
that’s it. that’s what we’re talking about changing. that’s nothing.
Then why change it?
anyway, we hear all the time that the most important thing is that the umps get the call right, even if it takes time.
I haven’t been hearing this.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
I hear it all the time.
Change it because it’s wrong.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
changing the past would disrupt the space time continuum
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Clearly a problem.
I wasn’t considering Einstein.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
change it to get the call right
it’s nothing in that it only affects the stats of two guys and not in some major way and. now, had the next batter doubled and they gone on to score a couple runs, etc, then it would be something. but that’s not what happened. it has minimal impact, is what I’m saying.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 3, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
And at the end of a perfect game, Joyce should probably be thinking that any close play has to go to the Tigers. That’d be more defensible.
But not correct. That’s the fan in you wanting to see the perfect game. I would not ever wnt to be an umpire.
Adopted Son:Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
THIS
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
This Was Not A Perfect Game - A Mistake Was Made.
It has never mattered before who made the mistake (pitcher, fielder, or umpire) and there is no logical reason to change this now. The fact is that a mistake was made (in this case by the umpire) and thus the game was not perfect.
I might be able to get behind this reasoning
Except the call didn’t just take away a perfect game. It also lost him a no-hitter.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
So the commish should only overturn what the fans/writers/players deem relevant?
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
No, he shouldn't have to overturn anything in the future
if a good review system is in place.
I read this at SI.com.
“I looked at the replay right after it happened, and Miguel Cabrera made a good throw and Galarraga didn’t miss the bag so you couldn’t do anything but call it a hit,” Klonke said Thursday morning. “I watched the replay from the center-field camera, which some people thought showed Galarraga might’ve bobbled the ball, and I didn’t see it that way at all. I have 24 hours to change a call, but I wouldn’t consider it. End of story.”
Did anyone here know that happened? Did that slow down the game at all. All that needs to happen is for the scorer to become a neutral party (maybe they already are, but I am under the impression they are hired by the home team) and give them the authority to communicate overturns of incorrect calls by umpires. The guy did exactly what should have been done by a replay umpire, he went through the exactly correct process, and came to the correct decision, but had no power to communicate that or authority to overturn. It’s all in place.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
I just posted a Fanpost about this topic
I think it’s deserving of a discussion.
But I might be wrong
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
You are totally right, but the key phrase is
in the future
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not even sure I'm for overturning the call
At the moment, I’m on the fence.
However, I do think that there is a good argument for overturning it.
So, in answer to your question…I don’t care to think about every possible scenario for overturning calls. I do, however, think that this is probably a good situation to overturn a call.
A significant achievement is up for grabs, determined by a call that, by most accounts, wasn’t even close. It seems pretty clear cut. Though, I think that there might be other factors to consider.
Hence, the fence-sitting.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
I'm not worried about a bad precedent being set
Extreme situations call for unusual exceptions, and they generally don’t open the door to a slippery slope. There are not going to be a flood of perfect games lost on the 27th out by a bad call, and the 26th out is not the same thing.
Golfers argued that granting Casey Martin a cart exception was going to open the floodgates to other disabilities. It didn’t. Show up with another leg like that guy’s and we’ll talk about it.
Reverse the call. Make it right.
"The questions are so stupid. I don't believe in rivalries. I don't believe in curses. Wake up the damn Bambino, maybe I'll drill him in the ass."
- Pedro Martinez, asked about the Curse of the Bambino
The bootom line is
The scorer cant change it, the rule book says that an official scorer cannot change a play that would directly undermine the desicion of an umpire, therefore the best he could do would be to rule an error, therefore the perfect game is essentialy off the table unless that douchebag selig does something
Who needs smoking? Being a Giant's fan will take 10-15 Years off of my life easy!
Extreme situations call for unusual exceptions, and they generally don’t open the door to a slippery slope.
I’m not sure I’d be willing to concede this point, but I’m not enough of a historian to be definitive… my sense is that unusual exceptions due to extreme situations do in fact open the door to slippery slopes. I’m sure some of the libertarian posters have some concrete examples or more coherent thoughts about this.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess generally is the key word…
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That's what I really enjoy about this debate.
It’s like Constitutional Law, but for baseball.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I have to say, I agree with you. Shit happens that ruins perfect games. Wouldn’t be the first time an umpire arguably ruined a perfect game through a bad call, even if it would be the first time it was the final out.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Jun 3, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
trolls
by definition are not successful due to their under-bridge-living circumstances
...Dr. Vader will see you now.
yes but if they collect enough tolls
Can they not be considered successful at trolling?
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Nope. No boy’s hole.
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
goldengatebeerbars.com
by troymccluresf on Jun 3, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
how about getting into the boy’s soul….
An instant buzz is on the rise, the whiskey's for a big surprise.
DayMan
(Ahh-ahhh!)
Fighter of the NightMan
(Ahh-ahhh!)
Champion of the sun
(Ahh-ahhh!)
You’re a master of karate, and friendship
For everyone
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Protect my balls
Let’s fighting love
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Troll toll
What’d you say?
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
i hereby impose
a troll toll tax which permanently negates said troll’s success in collecting tolls.
...Dr. Vader will see you now.
If I had the ability to level a bork tax, I’d be rich as Croesus.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Nobody was perfect on this day.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
+1
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Moral of the story:
“The thing is, it happened.”
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 3:53 PM PDT reply actions
Jim Joyce had to be focused.
He was focused.
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
The focusing needs enhancement.
Damn right about the 50 yr old eyesight degeneration.
(squints to see if that’s an h or an n there)
Younger umpires.
And on a less serious but hey, what if! note: younger female ball dudes.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jun 4, 2010 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Watch figure skating
If you’re interested in having personal achievements retroactively awarded after judges/umpires/officials, upon further examination, are deemed to have made a mistake in the heat of a moment.
People calling for the ruling to be overturned kind of remind me of the people who think kids should get participation (aka “9th place”) trophies. Sometimes in life we get screwed over. We might feel wronged, and we might feel that the gods of luck and/or fate (or those in the position of authority to possibly change things) should do something to make it right. But that doesn’t always happen. And we shouldn’t expect them to, either.
In any case, what to do if the call is overturned? Have a nice on-field celebration for Galarraga’s retroactive perfecto at a future date at Comerica? Re-create the moment with the Indians and have a mock celebration to relive that final out? The game’s long over, the fans have filed out of the ballpark, the lights have turned off, and that moment isn’t coming back. Galarraga can have his perfect game in his mind, but there are plenty of things that need to happen among the participants of that game (umpires are included as participants) for that to happen. In the end, it didn’t.
People calling for the ruling to be overturned kind of remind me of the people who think kids should get participation (aka "9th place") trophies
Really? A guy excels by doing something that has only been done 20 times ever and you compare it to getting a participation trophy?
Also, is the point of recognizing a perfect game only for the on-field celebration?
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Not the achievement, but the particular mindset that players who are dealt the short end of the stick deserve to have a carrot handed to them to make up for it. You can’t always expect to be handed a bouquet of flowers after stepping on a pile of crap, as wrong and as unjust as it might be.
Also, yes.
by short_shifter on Jun 3, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Can’t always expect it? I agree.
Should have expected it this time? Damn straight.
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
Award him a Corvette or something.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jun 4, 2010 2:48 AM PDT up reply actions
“Life isn’t fair, Bill. We tell our children that it is, but it’s a terrible thing to do. It’s not only a lie, it’s a cruel lie. Life is not fair, and it never has been, and it’s never going to be.”
It’s just fairer than death, that’s all.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s times like these that I’m remind me of what my dad would say to me when things weren’t going quite as well as I’d expected.
Life aint fair, deal with it.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
My dad actually used baseball as a prime example and teaching tool about the existence of injustice in the world. Of course, he was a pitcher and had to rely on his teammates for wins, so his bitterness and cynicism are perhaps justified.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm with Grant.
There have been 392,018 games played in the history of MLB. There have been 20 perfect games pitched (including Larsen). That comes out to one perfect game in every 19600.9 played. I don’t buy the slippery slope argument and I don’t buy that it will destroy the integrity of anything. As of next year, this won’t happen because there will be a mechanism to overturn it in real time (Replay). So the next guy in this situation will have a PG. Since this is without real precedent it would only be fair to Gallaraga to give him his due. In addition, there is no real cost to doing it. I say give the kid his perfect game. Pretend the game ended when it actually should have and just erase the final batter.
Adopted Nut: Paraparaumu, New Zealand native, Andy Skeels
Not Relevent - The Mistake Happened - The Ump Blew The Call
History should always record what actually happened not what we think should have happened.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
But what actually happened was by rule an out.
The umpires brain interpreted it wrong, thus changing history. We need to unchange history in this case.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
The Ump Did Not Misinterrupt The Rule - He Misjudged
This is a big difference that baseball has always recognized in it rules. Safe or out is a judgment call and is not subject to protest or review. Penalty for using a bat with pine tar above the label is a rules interpretation that is subject to protest and review. It is really this simple. The rules say the runner was safe because that was the unpire’s judgment. The fact that the umpires judgment was wrong just does not matter.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
You really can't argue with people who don't understand
the difference between a judgment call and a misinterpretation of a rule.
I said the umpires BRAIN INTERPRETED it wrong
Meaning, he misjudged what he saw. I think we are agreeing.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
What actually happened — the runner was out.
What Joyce saw and called was not what actually happened.
Is that so difficult to understand?
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
Simply Not True
What actually happened is the umpire’s judgment was wrong as has happpened so often before that we can not even count how often. Changing history would be to pretend that the umpire’s judgment that the runner was safe did not happen.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, history should record what actually happened
The final out of a perfect game was recorded but the umpire blew the call.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Yesterday's Perfect Game
GEORDI
Unless we were to re-arm them with instant repl…
PICARD
We can’t do that. If we institute instant replay and retroactively apply it to this game, we would be altering the past…
GRM
But that’s what you’re talking about doing anyway, isn’t it? Altering the past.
PICARD
We’re talking about restoring the past.
GEORDI
How could Grant know that history has been altered… if he’s been altered along with the rest of us?
DATA
perception he has an ability to sense that goes beyond linear time.
PICARD
(acknowledges)
There are many things about Grant that cannot be easily explained. Even he cannot explain how or why he senses that history has been altered. And yet it is very possible he is correct.
An umpire blew a perfectly routine call. Who among us could know what effect that event has had on the present. Indeed, we will never know for certain if Grant is correct. But I, for one, have decided the consequences of that possibility are too grave to ignore.
GRM
Sir, if you wish my opinion…
PICARD
I think I know your opinion, Commander. This is a briefing. I’m not seeking your consent.
GRM refusing to back off, challenging Picard —
GRM
With all due respect, Captain, we’d be asking Jason Donald to give up a base hit.
DATA
Not necessarily , Commander. Jason Donald’s average will be affected by less than .5 of a percentage point at the end of the year.
PICARD
If we reverse this call, history will be irrevocably changed. This time line will cease to exist… and a new future will have been created. I’ve weighed the alternatives. I will follow Grant’s recommendations.
Dismissed.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
by jctGamer on Jun 3, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
MOGGEEE
I’m not supposed to be here, sir. I’m…I’m supposed to be dead!
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
Wow. That dude shares an IP with a lot of other members.
OTHER ACCOUNTS CREATED FROM MOGGEEE’S IP ADDRESS: MAYOR OF 311!
0_0
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s like a veil has been lifted! Black is white! Up is down!
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions
So this is like that episode where they couldn’t break the Prime Directive.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Indeed.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
this was great but...
No way GRM every makes Commander.
Eugenio Velez: Really fast... at getting picked off. SICK BURN!!
But He Makes Every Commander.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jun 4, 2010 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly: a 1 hit perfect game is what happened.
PUT IT IN THE BOOKS.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
How many one hitters have there been
where the only hit was on a blown call? I have to imagine this wasn’t the only one. It probably is the only one where the blown call was on the 27th out, but should that really matter?
Latos against the Giants earlier this year. Our only baserunner was Eli Whiteside’s infield hit on a “questionable” call at 1st base. I dont’t remember if it was blown or not, but I remember thinking it was questionable.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
And if the Wild Card started in 1993 instead of 1994,
maybe we’re not still counting the years since 1954 around here.
The thing is, it happened. It can’t un-happen.
Galarraga still gets his story (and a sweet car); he just doesn’t get to be on a kinda-random list in an accounting book.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Welcome to San Francisco, Pat Burrell
ScottReissCSN
#sfgiants John Bowker sent down to Fresno.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
John Bowker eventually released
Ends up on [major league team]. Hits .290/.350/.450.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
i hope he does
he’ll never get a shot on this team and I feel for him.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
LOL BOWKER!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Soon to be LOL Nate…
At least Fresno is going to be really good
Adopted Nut: Paraparaumu, New Zealand native, Andy Skeels
LOL nate has no LOLption left
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope they trade Bowker.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Amy G says no corresponding roster move...
Who’s coming?
Adopted Nut: Paraparaumu, New Zealand native, Andy Skeels
I am!
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh wait… that’s not what… you were….
/leaves.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
TMI
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
by say hey nation on Jun 3, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
/49ers merchandise
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Those poor socks.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
Socks?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Nah. It’s best to use white socks. Or, if you don’t plan on washing them for a while, yellow ones.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I was a little while ago.
Now I need a cigarette
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
DeRosa or Burrel tomorow.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL flap
Unless you’re talking about an ambulatory surgery center, in which case you might be right.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
You know what?
That’s enough. Keep Ishi, who never plays, and send down Bowker? I realize Ish is out of options, but I don’t get why keeping him around to suck up a roster spot is…
anyway, I’m not watching tonight. OOTP for me, where Bengie Molina plays for an expansion team, Barry Zito is in Japan, and Buster Posey is a goddamn catcher.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
bowker doesn’t play either.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
he has 3X the plate appearances of Ishi.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Plate Apperances
Wait, are we talking Bengie Molina?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I’m not watching tonight either!
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jun 3, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
RIGHT ON!
NO WATCHING TONIGHT!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
you can tell how invested I am in the MAGIC! It’s MEH Inside. And I am too.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Every once in a while, someone comes here and tries to rally everyone into boycotting the Giants
Tonight shall be that night!
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
this one WILL work
even on you.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Selig needs to reverse the call
Poor dude is like a fatter version of Johnathan Sanchez and a less cooler one, but still deserves the perfect game. In my eyes and in all of yours… probably, he pitched a perfect game.
Uh. What?
FresnoGrizzlies
Tonight’s Lineup: Bond 2B, Velez CF, Pill 1B, Burrell LF, Guzman DH, DeRosa 3B, Borchard RF, Holm C, Berroa SS. Hacker RHP.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 4:48 PM PDT reply actions
He’s there. Playing 3B.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, the monster inside his wrist is playing 3B
Mark has the day off
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Which could explain why he’s listed at 3B.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 3, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
what part of "resting" don't you understand?
He’s just “resting” at 3B in Fresno instead of 2B or whatever he played in SJ. That nerve must be TEH CALM by now.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jun 3, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
U……G…..L…..Y
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
by say hey nation on Jun 3, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Is Mike McBryde injured?
/mildly upset that Velez is getting PT over a future 4th OF/Reliever
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
I didn't even know that
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Promotion!
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
Wow, Grant.
I don’t normally just utterly disagree with you, but to find an example of why Selig shouldn’t get retroactive here, you have to go all the way back to… last night.
Twins@Mariners. The second-base umpire called a Mariner safe on what pretty clearly (not as obviously as Joyce, but what is?) should’ve been the last out of the 10th, and the runner from second never stopped running and scored the walk-off. There’s a very good chance that the Twins will rue that loss at the end of year. Not far off of your what-if scenario. From a league-wide perspective, that was probably a vastly more important blown call than Joyce’s. If Selig overrules Joyce, how does he not throw a bone to the Twins? Do we have a make-up there a la the Pine Tar Game?
Holliday still hasn’t touched the plate in Game 163 of 2007 vs the Padres. Jorge Orta was out in the 1985 World Series. Jeffery Meier reached over the wall in 1996. Knoblauch missed the tag in 1999. The thing is, it happened. Even if Selig did reverse the call, the moment has passed; Joyce will always be remembered for this, no matter the Commissioner’s call. Asterisks didn’t change our perception of Maris or Bonds, and they wouldn’t change our memories of Cabrera’s hands on his head or the quiet smile on Galarraga’s face.
Other, more positive spins:
A) Armando Galarraga is and always will be vastly more famous for what happened than if Joyce had called the guy out. In that sense, he entered an even more select club than if his perfect had been intact. How many people remember Harvey Haddix got the win in Game 7 of the 1960 World Series? How many more remember him for that other thing?
B) The perfect game retains its mystique. Talk about not watered down; even when you do it right, the baseball gods might just fuck you anyway. You know what would we’d be talking about today without Joyce? The devaluation of the perfecto. How depressing. Two in a week, three in a month, four in a year? This story had so much more than that.
C) We’ll finally get instant replay, hopefully in the style of NCAA football: an extra umpire in the booth watches every play and calls down when needed to say, “hey, you blew that call. Reverse it.”
There should’ve been replay ages ago. It takes a traumatic event to galvanize opinion: the Lusitania, Triangle Shirtwaist, Pearl Harbor, Rosa Parks, BP. It kinda happened in baseball with all the LOLWRONG calls by the umps in the last few postseasons, particularly that fair/foul call down the line. But the rules of the game are what they are, and that’s how the game should be played. Right now, those rules include the so-called Human Element. Thanks to yesterday, that may well no longer be the case.
Last night was the Worst of times, but from the moment Joyce blew that call, everyone- including the normally-incompetent Selig- has handled this absolutely as well as could possibly be imagined.
tl;dr
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 4:58 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, pretty much this.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
There's logic inside!
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Why?
Why limit the number of overturns? Why put it in the hands of the managers? Look how often they come running out to argue correct calls already? Why not just have one guy whose job it is to check every single call?
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I know it is illogical but I am against instant replay in baseball.
I do see the need for it to be applied at certain critical junctions in games.
Honest questions:
Why are you against it? The ‘human element’ is a nice shout-out to our sepia-toned pastoral past, but whenever that phrase gets used nowadays, at least one fanbase is feeling pretty righteously angry or depressed. The suddenly-sacred “Speed of the Game?” The reviews can’t take more time than it currently takes for a manager to come out, yell for a while, and get tossed (and as it now stands, the manager knows that his arguing won’t change anything).
And how, in a game that is theoretically infinite, do we define a critical juncture?
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions
All very good questions
and why I said I was being illogical. I think the best answer is probably that I lean towards being a baseball purist. I also must fess up to having been a baseball umpire at the teener and high school level and a recreational softball umpire.
Huh.
I’d have thought that would make you more in favor of replay. There’s all the replays and slo-mos and different angles available to literally everyone in the world except the umpires (and those in the blackout areas; LOLSelig!). We make eyesight jokes and bitch and moan about bad calls, yet deny them the tools to let them make the right calls. Umps are men who do generally excellent jobs yet are the ones who wind up looking like buffoons.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I do agree that whatever can be done to get the correct call is the right thing to do. Like I said, I realize I am being illogical, but there is just something that I don’t care for about bringing in a fifth umpire in the booth.
I really was against the wildcard when it was first implemented, however, I have come to actually like it as long as there are going to be three divisions. So, who knows, after I got used to having instant replay I’d probably like it.
This, pretty much
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD!
mccoven diversity: Romosexuals, Velezbians, Nerb's--they're all here...
by greatgiantfan on Jun 3, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Takes deep breath.
So . . . anyone watching tonight’s game?
{reaches for wine bottle}
Proud father of Alex and Fred Lewis.
I ain't denyin' there wasn't no bottle.
Hawk Harrelson is arguing right now in favor of Selig’s overturning the call.
So that should change some of y’all’s minds.
Maybe some of the blame should go on Miguel Cabrera for fielding the second baseman’s ball instead of covering first.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Sophie's Choice
So there are your options — agree with GRM or The Hawk.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jun 3, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
old news, so what, didn't affect the outcome of the game
What am I missing? I just don’t see a downside to reversing the call
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD!
mccoven diversity: Romosexuals, Velezbians, Nerb's--they're all here...
I'm fairly shocked that the MCC voice of reason wrote this post today
Because by writing it, you and your supporters are suggesting that the mystique of the 27th out is more important than any other out in the game. What makes the 27th out more important than the 1st? or the 15th? or the 26th?
How many times in history has a blown umpire call on one play resulted in a near perfect game? Several dozen at least, I’d safely guess. Why shouldn’t all of those pitchers clamor for a re-ruling?
OK OK, you say “but the bad call was made early and he pitched the rest of the game without the pressure of a perfect game!”
Well, that may be true if the gaffe occurs in the first inning. But what makes the 27th out different than, say, the 26th out? He was already 25 outs into the game. He was already under the super pressure. But because the gaffe happened with one out instead of two (in the 9th inning), THAT call wouldn’t be reversible? ONLY the last out is?
Someone above posted something very sound (to paraphrase): the runner isn’t safe because he beat the throw, he is safe because he was ruled safe. A runner is out because he is ruled out. Therefore, in a game built with the human element of umpiring woven within its fabric, an erroneous umpiring decision makes it, by rule, NOT a perfect game.
Our energy should be spent, first, on getting replay expanded if the game needs it. If we’re going to do something as ridiculous as overturning umpire calls, I’d BEGIN with all the bad ones that happened in situations that actually matter FAR MORE than a perfect game (where not even the outcome of the game was affected): 1) postseason play 2) plays that affect the outcome of games that have playoff implications.
Much like Jim Joyce, I think Grant made a forgivable error here. And anyone who thinks the play was an easy call and not a bang-bang play needs to have THEIR eyes checked. Most people who saw it live, as I did, didn’t know if he was safe or out until the replay. I feel badly for the umpire to ever be put in that situation. Yeah, it’s his job, but had he ruled him out – and the runner had somehow beaten it out – he would have been ridiculed too (despite the unwritten rule that you always err on the side of the pitcher there).
My two cents…
I diagree with Grant too, but I don’t agree with all of your points. I think people would have been just as angry if it had been made on the 26th out, and the 27th out is more important because the perfect game is not complete until you get it. No game is. Also, I saw it live. It was not that difficult of a call.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I was in a room of 24 people – people who work in baseball and are used to watching close plays… and most of us thought he was out, but ALL of us needed a replay to be sure. if you need a replay to be convinced, then the play is not OBVIOUS. we went around the room and each of us said we needed the replay. so I sympathize.
My initial reaction, actually wasn’t that he called him safe because the runner beat the throw. I thought he ruled him safe because the pitcher juggled it, and I was trying to see if the umpire would do the hand-juggle thing… which he didn’t. When he didn’t, I knew my assumption was wrong. But I still needed replay to confirm in my mind that he was out.
Well, yes, confirm. But almost everyone’s first reaction was that he was out.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 3, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you, the play was a helluva lot closer
than it appears from the one camera angle that keeps being shown. That angle makes it looks like he is out by a 2 feet, however, the defensive player’s foot is still above the bag and not on it yet.
Someone above posted something very sound (to paraphrase): the runner isn’t safe because he beat the throw, he is safe because he was ruled safe. A runner is out because he is ruled out. Therefore, in a game built with the human element of umpiring woven within its fabric, an erroneous umpiring decision makes it, by rule, NOT a perfect game.
If the runner is out by five feet, rather than one, but the umpire still calls him safe, is he indeed safe? What about if the ump makes the call before the runner even gets there? What about if he shuts his eyes, does eeny-meeny-miney-mo, and then makes the call? Where is the reductio ad absurdum at which “Reality is whatever the ump says it is” no longer applies?
By The Rules Of Baseball Nowhere.
Such an ump however would be suspended or fired.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Strawman.
You have to assume that everyone is attempting to do their jobs to the best of their ability. You can’t build in protections against the Donaghys or the Black Sox into the rules.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, it’s a strawman. But what interests me about this whole question is that we’re dealing with a reductio ad absurdum in the other direction. You have a big, high-profile situation in which an umpire can correct a horribly blown call so that he gets it right, and no harm is done to any party. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t take the opportunity to do that.
Because It Is Now Too Late.
Yes, Joyce could of asked for help from the other umps he did indeed have this option. But he did not and there is nothing in the rules of baseball that allow for this to be changed now.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
In single umpire games, it is not very rare to see an umpire miss a blatant call
It is very hard with only one umpire to catch everything that is going on especially when there are many runners on base. You must always be watching the ball and at the same time all the stuff that can go on with the runners (interference/obstruction/leaving bases early/etc).
It is also near impossible to have a good angle on every play. Tag plays where a tag is barely applied is also very difficult.
It is embarrassing but if you don’t see an out on a play you cannot assume that it happened. Even though everyone in the stands saw an out, if you missed it you have to call safe and it cannot be protested.
+1
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
LEYLAND SHOULD HAVE PULLED HIS TEAM FROM THE FIELD
He should have said that the game was over and that the Tigers won; let the umpire declare a forfeit, then file a protest. Had that been the course of action, Bud Selig could have ruled that the game was indeed ended on that play and voided the forfeit. However, by continuing the game, the Tigers implicitly conceded to the authority of Joyce’s call.
The money lies in the RBIs
-- Jeff Kent
Excellent point
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 3, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually Not - It Turns A Win Into A Lose
The rules of baseball are very clear here.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
The Commioner Would Not Be Able To Uphold Such A Protest
An out/safe call (a judgment call) is not protestable. By the rules of baseball the commissioner just does not have the power you want him to exercise. By your logic Obama should just ignore the US Constitution and Laws and do whatever he thinks is best.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
OT - But The Us Government Doesn't Have The Necessary Expertice To Do This
BP’s technology in the area of deep sea drilling is in fact the world leader as shown by all of their success in the North Atlantic. The other oil companies come in a distant second to BP here. Yes, this is indeed a big fuck up with extremely serious consequences. But there is just no way the US Government could do a better job then BP. In this case the President does have the legal authority to truly take over but to do so would actually be extremely foolish if getting the damn hole plugged is truly the goal. Now if scoring political points is the goal then that is another story.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Goddamnit, GRM, stop making sense.
You’re upsetting my worldview.
What Obama could do is requisition that technology and expertise, considering the scope of the disaster.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
GRM isn't a dummy
No, there are other issues with GRM.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
This is not mention the fact that if he does take over, he owns the mess. He would become responsible for the cleanup rather than BP. It would be a terrible, stupid, counterproductive act.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 3, 2010 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions
You are comparing the rules of baseball to the government structure of the United States.
Seriously? Are you seriously making this analogy.
Status: Feels so broke up. Wants to go home. || Still boycotting Johnsonville and Giants souvenirs or ballpark foods for repossessing my K Wall in right field.
Official Scoring Change?
How about the official scorer changing that play to an error instead of a hit so he could at least get his no-hitter. Hits and errors switch places frequently. Now would seem to be a decent time to do it. Galarraga could get the error for misplaying the toss to first.
Hitting 74 on the radar gun but hitting my spots.
by VidaWantsYourCar on Jun 3, 2010 7:12 PM PDT reply actions
Official Scorer Has Already Said This Is Not Happening
He has review the replays from all angles and can not find a rational basis to rule an error.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Outs as judgment calls
I really hate that part of the rule book. Either somebody is out or he isn’t. This is a fact, not an opinion.
Replay. It needs to get here.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
On an obviously blown call it is clear but it really is always a judgment
What if there were no cameras like in most baseball games played every day? On a close play, you will get different opinions from everyone involved. Who decides what is the call — the umpire.
Even with instant replay it is sometimes a judgment call. Have you never watched a replay with a buddy and find you still disagree? Hell I’ve watched calls in football over-ruled that I thought were wrong and they are supposed to only be doing that if it is incontrovertible.
This is MLB
There are always cameras.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Thus Why There Will Be Soon More Instent Replay
But not a reason to break baseball’s rules and overturn a non protestable judgment call.
by giantsrainman on Jun 3, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
We're gonna have to Replay this thing over and over?
http://www.amazon.com/ABO-Gear-10115-Instent-Shelter/dp/B001GAPN78
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I'm making the case that the rules are wrong with regard to judgment calls.
The baseball Satanist
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DETROIT—The Cleveland Indians were one out away from being the victims of a perfect game thrown by Detroit’s Armando Galarraga when umpire Jim Joyce came to the rescue, calling runner Jason Donald safe even though he appeared to be out. It was a great call that will endear him to the city of Cleveland forever.
"That was a great call by Joyce," said Donald. "And it came at the perfect time, too. We were this close to being no-hit, which would have been an
embarrassment considering how bad this season is already going for us. But then Jim, our fairy godmother, stepped in and bailed us out. He’ll go down in history for that call. He should be very proud."
Cleveland manager Manny Acta described the tension in the clubhouse as a perfect game seemed inevitable.
"It was bad," Acta said. "Nobody wanted to think that this kid was going to throw a perfect game against us. When Jason hit that grounder to Cabrera, I thought ‘Here we go. How am I going to explain this one in the press conference?’ Then he called him safe. The dugout exploded. We started celebrating, although we didn’t really know how to do it. There were a lot of awkward high-fives going on. Many of them missed completely."
Some Indians players are hoping the awesome call will signal a change in fortunes for the beleaguered franchise, which has been stuck in the cellar for the past few years.
"Maybe this piece of good fortune will turn things around for us," said outfielder Austin Kearns. "Maybe we’ll go on a 15-game winning streak and race to the top of the division and Jim Joyce will be remembered as the guy who started it all. It’s possible. That’s why I told him after the game, ‘Jim, you just made history. That one call is going to change your life forever. Congratulations!’ He was all modest about it. He was like, ‘I want to jump off a building.’"
When word came that commissioner Bud Selig was considering reversing the call, Indians players were infuriated. Fortunately, he decided against it and the "greatest call ever" will stand.
"I couldn’t believe they were going to try and change that," said first baseman Russell Branyan. "That was, like, one of the great calls ever in the history of the game. I understand that some people were upset about losing the perfect game, but those people can basically eat shit. When we look back on our 2010 season, we’ll look back with pride knowing that we should have gotten no-hit but were saved by an umpire’s call. It’s the first thing we’ve done right all year."
http://thebrushback.com/perfect_full.htm
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Question for all of you who gang up on poor suckers (and, yes, provocateurs) who bring up no-hitters in progress etc. and demand that they obey the unique and almost supernatural rules of baseball: shouldn’t we consider umpire fragility to be part of the game? Because it most certainly is. Just curious.
yes
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD!
mccoven diversity: Romosexuals, Velezbians, Nerb's--they're all here...
by greatgiantfan on Jun 4, 2010 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions
This is a bizarre argument in a way
It’s like traditionalists vs. progressives or something.
I just look at it in terms of right and wrong. The right thing to do is to change the box score. The wrong thing to do is to just accept it. Grant is totally right that this is pretty much the only situation where you could just go back and change things. It was the last out of the game and the pitcher immediately retired the next batter.
Now had the pitcher blown up and given up the lead, that is something else entirely. He didn’t. There is no “what if?” scenario that can be argued. It does not set a bad precedent because this is a unique situation that is not likely to come up again, and even if it were to happen again, it doesn’t change a thing.
It is right versus wrong.
I am not saying the people who disagree are wrong in their opinions because they are logical and completely valid. I am saying that sometimes things transcend the game and this is one of those cases.
It doesn’t really matter anyway as history has already decided this game will be viewed as a perfect game. Only the jackasses who say things like asterisks should go next to achievements will argue against it, and no one really cares about them anyway.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jun 3, 2010 10:43 PM PDT reply actions
So it doesn't matter,
but we should do something that has never been done in baseball history to make it better.
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 3, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
So then... why do it?
I had some fun with this one. Enjoy the links. -WTAWTAM
It doesn’t really matter anyway as history has already decided this game will be viewed as a perfect game. Only the jackasses who say things like asterisks should go next to achievements will argue against it, and no one really cares about them anyway.
As you yourself point out, the story is over. The story was full of pathos and drama and color, and grabbed the attention of the country for an entire news cycle. But it’s done, the cover is closed. All that’s left is the dispassionate list, the black-and-white neat little rows of names and numbers and zeroes in all the right places, the Scrooge on Christmas Eve. But, as I said earlier, we remember Harvey Haddix for the very fact that he’s not on that list. He is not a number! He is a free man! The story wins out. It is that thing that doesn’t love a wall. It is the ivy that grows to hide a cinderblock shed, the grass that forces its way into the cracks of the orderly sidewalks and resolutely seeks the sun. The box score tells you the skeleton of the game, imparting vast amount of knowledge with perfectly-placed numbers ordered just so; the stories put blood in its veins and breath in its lungs.
That’s the delight of baseball: it’s so perfectly rational yet so… not. It’s measurable and ordered from base to base and mound to home, from seasons to games to innings to at-bats to pitches, the atoms of the game. Yet between those atoms are the ridiculous did- you- see- that?!? plays, the stories, the dark matter that hold the whole thing together. The order of the infield gives way to the randomness of the outfield. Within that perfect, beautiful, geometric logical structure is the chaos of the stories: Bartman and Buckner and Bonds, Merkle and McCovey and Meteor, the 2003 Red Sox and the 2004 Yankees And now Armando Galarraga. Jonathan Sanchez lost a perfect game through no fault of his own; now so to has the gallant Tiger. It’s a game of failure, and some of the best stories are the failures that were snatched from the jaws of victory.
So why open the you-did-it-for-him-why-not-for-us? can of worms when the victory is already in hand? Why risk setting that precedent?
The only people to whom Selig’s unprecedented action would truly make a difference at this point are the aforementioned “jackasses” that are trying to make baseball more like accounting… “and no one really cares about them anyway.”
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 4, 2010 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions
31 flavors!
Gotta catch ’em all!
Giants Baseball: The Thing Is, It Keeps Happening.
Proud parent of William Nuschler M.F. Clark.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jun 4, 2010 1:35 AM PDT up reply actions
You people with your tireless minds and your well laid out arguments, you piss me off no end.
Green me. With envy.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jun 4, 2010 3:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Answer #1: Not really, but I do believe in the PED era and I do believe that we have some hindsight on it. I.e. we are moving past it, but it is not yet over.
Answer #2: Pitchers pitching with more velocity and injured less often (the two intended results of PEDs for pitchers) does not mean less homeruns. Pitching with more velocity, if anything, means more homeruns.
Answer #3: Yes, I was joking.
If you can't sign a hitter to play in China Basin, trade a pitcher for a hitter and then sign another pitcher... why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
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