Matt Cain vs. Felix Hernandez
Entering 2005, both Matt Cain and Felix Hernandez were among the top 15 prospects in baseball. Cain was rated #13 in Baseball America's annual Top 100 Prospects list and Hernadez was ranked 2nd. Both were young phenoms on their way to AAA that year before making their major league debuts in the 2nd half of the 2005 season. Cain was the oldest of the pairing at age 20, and Hernandez was 19.
So it was only natural for both of these young prospects to often get compared to one another, and Hernandez usually came with the higher accolades, due to his younger age and better stuff. Hernandez tore up the PCL in '05, going 9-4 with a 2.25 ERA in 19 games (14 starts) with 100 K's in 88 IP and 48 BB, while giving up only 3 HR. Matt Cain fared well for a 20 year old, with a 10-5 record and 4.39 ERA in 26 games (26 starts) with 176 K in 145 2/3 IP. But Cain also walked 73 and gave up 22 gopher balls.
Hernandez would go 4-4 in 12 starts in the majors that year with a 2.67 ERA with very good numbers of 77 K in 84 1/3 IP while allowing only 23 BB, 61 H, and 5 HR.
Cain went 2-1 in 7 starts with a 2.33 ERA and 30 K in 46 1/3 with 24 H, 19 BB, and 4 HR allowed.
Since then Hernandez has been anointed as one of the best pitchers in baseball, while Cain has been mired in obscurity due to the emergence of Tim Lincecum, and because the Giants putrid offense has given him the worst run support in the league since he's entered it in 2005. Both Cain and Hernandez have thrown in exactly 148 games since entering the league in '05, here are their results:
Hernandez (24) 148 Games (all starts), 8 CG, 3 Shutouts, 969 IP, 929 H, 417 R, 374 ER, 86 HR, 312 BB, 868 K, 60 - 45, 1.28 WHIP, .253 BAA, 3.47 ERA
Cain (25) 148 Games, 147 starts, 10 CG, 3 SHO, 940.2 IP, 791 H, 378 R, 361 ER, 80 HR, 371 BB, 780 K, 47 - 55, 1.24 WHIP, .229 BAA, 3.45 ERA
So while Hernandez is proclaimed a true superstar pitcher who has arrived, virtually nobody talks about Matt Cain. Even many casual Giants fans think Cain isn't that good because he "can't win". As you can see by the numbers, Cain stacks up with Hernandez just fine as their peripherals are pretty spot on, with Cain besting Hernandez in some, while Hernandez is better than Cain in others (notably K/BB ratios), but there really hasn't been much that separates the two other than win total.
The saddest part of this is that Cain is 6-35 when the Giants give him 2 runs or less of support, but that Cain's seems to have performed best when he gets no support:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=cainma01&year=Career&t=p#rs
In 51 starts with 0-2 runs of support, Cain has a 3.17 ERA
While Hernandez is at his worst when he gets 6 + runs of support:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hernafe02&year=Career&t=p#rs
Now I'm not trying to say that Cain is better than Hernandez, just that Cain is deserving of more praise, as he certainly is pretty close to King Felix in terms of performance so far in their careers.
And for those that think Cain has an advantage pitching in the NL, and he'd fair worse in the AL: his numbers in the AL are better than Hernandez vs the NL:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=cainma01&year=Career&t=p#oppon
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hernafe02&year=Career&t=p#oppon
Granted the sample is only that of like half a season of work, but I think the whole thing about advantage pitching in one league over the other is minimal if any, and these two would be great in either league. Just thought this was an interesting comparison given the paths each player's career has taken. Neither has disappointed so far, but Hernandez has gotten far more acclaim than Cain has. It's even easier to compare when they've had the same amount of appearances and broke in at about the same time. Plus their ages aren't that far apart either. Thought it would make for a good discussion.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
54 comments
|
4 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
OMG BUT WUT ABOUT THEIR XFIP
I think Felix is better than Cain, but I definitely think Cain is somewhat underrated. Great post.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I agree Felix is better. The xFIP is going to benefit Felix since he gets a lot more groundballs since Cain is an extreme fly ball pitcher. I think that’s another reason why Felix gives up more hits too, as both have great stuff but I think anyone who watches baseball knows Felix has a better arsenal of the two.
Still usually in baseball circles it’s “OMGZ FELIX!” and…. “Cain doesn’t even win”.
I’m sure most of it just has to do with the fact that the Giants have sucked since 05 and even Timmy is underrated in most baseball circles. Even with two fucking cy young’s the media seems to forget about him. So it would make sense that even less is said about Cain. It just makes me sad.
I think the reason Felix might be a bit overrated is that his stuff just looks so pretty. Kind of like how Griffey was a bit overrated because he had such a pretty swing. Hernandez is really good, but definitely not elite.
I was promised lasagna.
That’s not what fangraphs will tell you, but of course, they’re completely objective when it comes to the Mariners.
Well, who’s elite? Felix is clearly not in the Lincecum/Halladay class, but he’s probably among the top ten starters.
Somewhere around #10, I guess, yeah. He’s not Lincecum/Greinke/Halladay level, and probably not as good as Sabathia or Lee either. Then there’s Wainwright, Haren, Lester, Verlander, maybe Jimenez. Hernandez is somewhere in that group, probably close to the bottom.
Haren, I think, is the one who’s really underrated. Over the past three years he’s thrown 223, 216, and 229 innings, with an ERA+ of 138, 139, and 146. He’d have some CY Young votes if weren’t pitching in a launching pad.
I was promised lasagna.
Past 3 seasons, cumulative fWAR:
Sabathia
Halladay
Lincecum
Haren
Greinke
Beckett
Javier Vasquez
Verlander
King Felix
Cliff Lee
I’d throw Vasquez out of that group because I think FIP overrates him. Looks like a pretty good list to me, though. Greinke’s a little underrated because he’s much better now than he was 3 years ago. Sabathia’s probably lost a little bit….but yeah. Lincecum/Haren should be penalized some for being in the NL, but are still somewhere on that list.
by Missing Barry on Jun 1, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
What’s fWAR?
Greinke was the best pitcher in the game last year, but this year he’s no better than Verlander and Hernandez, among others. I don’t think he’s established himself at that upper-upper level as Lincecum & Halladay have.
Fangraphs version of WAR.
As for Greinke, the point is that list was just in order of who had the most Fangraphs WAR (fWAR) over the past 3 full seasons, 2007-2009. Greinke’s numbers over those years:
2.5, 4.9, 9.4. Even if the 9.4 was flukey high, he’s a better pitcher now than a 3 year average will have him pegged for. Also, he was so amazing last year that you can discount it a ton…like regress it 50%, and it was still an amazing year – top 10 last year. That’s really, really good. Plus you compared him to Verlander….well Verlander had a pretty amazing year last year, too….
I’d put Greinke on the very top tier right now.
by Missing Barry on Jun 1, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
This would really underrated Lee, since he’s just clearly not the same pitcher he was in 2007.
If you do past three calender years, so you include the beginning of this year, you get:
Roy Halladay
Tim Lincecum
Cliff Lee
Zack Greinke
CC Sabathia
Dan Haren
Justin Verlander
Jon Lester
Ubaldo Jimenez
Felix Hernandez
Lincecum benefits from the lack of a DH, but he’s a full two wins over Lee, so it probably doesn’t matter. Haren and Jimenez are also in the NL, but also pitch in extreme hitters’ parks, so I think it should sort of even out. Bump Lester up a bit a few spots for pitching in Fenwey and in the AL East, and I think that’s a list I’m willing to stand by. But another great year and Wainwright is in there.
I was promised lasagna.
Yeah I wanted as big a sample with as little effort as possible, so that’s why I didn’t use this season. WAR includes a park adjustment already. Overall, I’d say that looks like a pretty solid list, too.
by Missing Barry on Jun 1, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Hmm, if it includes a park adjustment then flip Jimenez and Hernandez, as well as Lester and Haren (I’d still bump Lester two spots up for pitching in the AL. He was only 3 runs or something behind Haren anyway). OK, my finale list:
Roy Halladay
Tim Lincecum
Cliff Lee
Zack Greinke
CC Sabathia
Jon Lester
Justin Verlander
Dan Haren
Felix Hernandez
Ubaldo Jimenez
I was promised lasagna.
They actually do kinda forget about Timmy.
Whenever I’m listening to some “experts” on ESPN and stuff, they’re always talking about how they think Johan Santana or Cole Hamels have the best changeup in the game.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 1, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I looked at Cain, Hernandez, and Verlander before the season started
Their similarities are interesting:
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/3/29/1394902/comparing-cain-hernandez-and
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on May 29, 2010 6:24 PM PDT reply actions
Really Nice Work
And now for the over/under on how long before FP Santangelo rips it off: 72 hours sound like a good median time?
Hitting 74 on the radar gun but hitting my spots.
by VidaWantsYourCar on May 30, 2010 7:44 AM PDT reply actions
does he look for material here?
We don't have to improve our ability to get people on base to improve our offense. If we sign FAs with decent RBI totals they will bring those RBIs with them. Its science. Or magic. We aren't exactly sure. The IT department hasn't responded to our telegram. --Sabean's offseason master plan
One of the things I like about Cain is that he doesn’t seem to mind being out of the spotlight, even when he doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Pure class
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
This is definitely true, although Cain also definitely has a sad.
"I never watched baseball on TV. It's slow and boring. I'm not a fan. Never was." - Jeff Kent
/pic of Cain sitting by himself
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
K.F.I.S.T.F.
Hoping for BowkerMania to get consistent playing time at AT&T Park
AH WILL BE UR FREND MAYT KANE
Goodbye, Steven Johnson, we hardly knew ye. Seriously, that was short.
I want to throw a party and invite Matt Cain
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
by Useful_Idiot on May 30, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you sell the differences of pitching in the AL vs NL short
While it’s not as big a gap as many make it out to be, being able to pitch to a pitch ~10% of the time is a huge advantage and lower the over all numbers
I wasn’t trying to sell it short, I mean do you really think Cain would be Vazquez esque in the AL? I sure as hell don’t. Especially when his fastball is consistently above average every year.
No, don’t think he’d be Vazquez at all, and he’d still be a very good pitcher in the AL as well, but his numbers wouldn’t be the same. It’s just tough to compare players across leagues where the rules aren’t the same. I agree with you post overall, and especially your response to jponry above, but think that you dismiss the argument that it is tougher to pitch in the AL, when it is a pretty strong argument when you are comparing numbers of players in different leagues
The K/W difference is substantial, as is the difference between the AL and the NL. Cain’s great, but Felix is in the next tier up.
How so? I’d say the parks narrow the gap between the two of them. Ours has clearly become a hitter’s park, and Safeco is certainly kind to pitchers.
Suppresses HR’s. For an extreme flyball pitcher, that’s very helpful.
by Missing Barry on May 30, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
That's something that I've been wondering in terms of park factors
Going only by FIP components and pitcher handedness, would AT&T still be considered a pitcher’s park (at least FB, RHP) if you only did park factors for home runs, strikeouts, and walks?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
What is the home run factor these days, anyway? It used to be 90% or so, but I’m sure it’s gone up.
Regardless, I don’t think it’s fair to dock a pitcher for getting his outs in the way that happens to be the most efficient way to get outs in his park. And anyway, when you look at Cain’s career splits, you see that he’s given up just as many homers on road as at home.
He has a 6.4% HR/FB rate at home compared to a 6.9% rate on the road. That seems like the most useful/correct way of looking at it to me.
by Missing Barry on May 30, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s pretty similar.
Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!
by GovernorStephCurry on May 30, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Is there a reason to think he can get more groundballs if he pitched somewhere else? I believe AT&T park helps Cain. I don’t believe he’d have that advantage playing somewhere else, so of course it’s something I’d hold against him.
by Missing Barry on May 30, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd hold Matt Cain tightly
Wait, what were we talking about?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Be careful . . .
. . . when trying to use park factors. Be very, very careful.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by 




























