Don Mattingly For '11 Manager
by SSC24 on May 23, 2010 4:50 PM PDT
Email
PrintI was listening to Marty Lurie's postgame wrap-up on KNBR 680 (meh, it's OK, but nothing compared to that of Damon Bruce, from last season) when someone called and told Marty that the fodgers hitting coach would be a great hire for the 2011 Giants managerial position. And I began to think - this caller knows what he is talking about. Not only will the Giants have stolen a huge piece from the fodgers who knows the fodger roster very well (and who is probably in line to succeed Joe Torre when Torre leaves after this season), but they will also have someone who knows a thing or two about hitting and who will not stand for bullshit (i.e. getting shut out, not being able to move runners over/drive them in/bad situational baseball play in general).
Bochy is an OK manager, but here are his flaws:
1) He tends to stick with the "hot hitter" so when that guy turns "cold" there tends to be a bit of trouble finding the next "hot hitter," because the Giants typically need to rely on one to manufacture some runs.
2) Thus younger players are not played much and have their growth stunted, for if there is no "hot hitter" to be found, the vets get to play simply for the experience factor. The worst part is, he does not seem to learn from this and take a chance on a young, potential up-and-comer.
3) He cannot tell his minor league managers to teach the hitters to bunt. The bunt is completely out of the Giants offense, except when a pitcher does it.
4) He sometimes makes the shittiest lineups. RENT SUCKS!!! PUT HIM 8TH!!! Who else is sick of Molina hitting cleanup? Today he put Torres at leadoff. Torres is a #2 hitter. The Giants do not have a true leadoff guy but Rowand's their best option there simply because he does not feel the pressure of driving guys in (although he is in a bit of a slump right now). Also, Why had Schierholtz been hitting 8th?
5) He has not had much success in the postseason. The best record he's had in October is 7-7 (in 1998) when the beloved Pads were swept in the World Series.
6) He sometimes takes pitchers out too soon, and gives too much attention to pitch count.
If the Giants are successful in paying Mattingly more than the fodgers, the next decade of our rivalry may be one of ownage by the Giants' part. He will demand good hitters, and will also be able to teach a thing of two to the ones already here. Maybe then management will come up with a successful "Giants Way" formula, which they seriously lack.
One more thing: The Giants better sweep LOLkland in SF.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
89 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
What about the current Bench Coach...??
I forget his name, but he’s been mentioned whenever the head hunters go out and the job apps come in.
Uncle Sabes...How much longer til we get there?
Ron Wotus.
I’m a fan of Wotus-Make him manager and Decker as the bench coach to learn.
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
K.F.I.S.T.F.
Hoping for BowkerMania to get consistent playing time at AT&T Park
Good heavens.
The ghost of Rodney Dangerfield hovers in the air nearby.
Ron Wotus has been with the Giants’ organization for 22 years.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I have heard speculation that Wotus isn’t interested in being a full manager. Not to shoot him down or anything, but the drive might not be there for him, awesome as he is.
Adoptive father of the enigmatic Michael Sandoval, and living vicariously through his proximity to Joe Mauer and the Panda.
I'm a fan of Ron Wotus!
proud father of Ron Wotus...The most interesting man in the world. Ron doesn't always drink, but when he realizes he's stuck on the bench next to Big Head he drinks Dos Equis and he drinks a lot!
No
Ron Wotus should have gotten the job after Baker was run out of town, and should have it NOW.
"Kenny Lofton, the man they love to hate in St. Louis has driven a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are DEAD!" Jon Miller
But nothing will truly change until that pretender Sabean is thrown out the window of his office.
"Kenny Lofton, the man they love to hate in St. Louis has driven a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are DEAD!" Jon Miller
by Sabean's_Folly on May 23, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's called defenestration.
Defenestration has been used for hundreds of years, most notably in Prague.
And I heartily agree that nothing meaningful will happen under the current front-office administration. About the only possibly interesting question is whether Mr. Sabean will throw Mr. Bochy under the bus and buy time, or whether Mr. Neukom and his partners will zing the whole kit and kaboodle in one sweep. (I’d bet on the former.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
defenestration actually should mean removal of the window
exfenestration would be a better term for someone going out the window.
science.
if Freddie Sanchez, Mark DeRosa and Aubrey Huff are the answer, I guess I just didn't understand the question.
This always bugged me. For years I thought the Nazis had simply broken a bunch of Polish windows.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Wait, that’s not what they did? So then what are we all mad at them for?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on May 24, 2010 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Nah, it's the Latin "de"
Which means, among other things, “out of” and “down from.”
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Edward Longshanks was also a fan of the practice.
Proud parent of Will the Thrill, standard-bearer of The Giants Way.
"I was jacked leaving that room. I didn't even want to visit another room. It was not enough time," Tebow said. "We were excited, we were enthusiastic. There was passion. It was just intense, and it was ball, and it was juice. The juice level in that room was high, and it was awesome."
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on May 24, 2010 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Mattingly’s had some personal problems due to an alcoholic ex wife. I’m not sure he’s worth the possible risk.
Buster Posey: "still not ready." - idiot of a GM
by rxmeister on May 23, 2010 5:13 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Come on guys! Don't you wanna backstab the ducking fodgers??? :D
Bandwagoners are the prostitutes of fandom.
I’d rather backstab them by taking Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier but that’s not happening
by 49erEmpire on May 23, 2010 5:29 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
In this line
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
K.F.I.S.T.F.
Hoping for BowkerMania to get consistent playing time at AT&T Park
I think of Mattingly as a Yankee
The Giants offseason moves - "meh"
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum, who could do whatever he wants to do.
What happened to Bruce?
Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!
by GovernorStephCurry on May 23, 2010 5:27 PM PDT reply actions
/reads #3
/reads #4
/remembers Rent bunting his way on in the Eckstein extra inning abomination
/goes to make a hot ham an’ cheese sandwich
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on May 23, 2010 6:04 PM PDT reply actions
You suggest moving a lot of these
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I really don’t have a problem with the Giants moving on from Project Boulderskull at the end of the season. His limitations make him particularly ill-suited to managing this roster. Conversely, I know so little about Mattingly’s actual skills as a coach that I can’t condone or condemn his hiring. However, your reasons for wanting a new manager strike me as, um, interesting. I find Bochy’s line-ups as frustrating as anyone. Would better line-ups lead to more wins? I don’t know. The bunting thing, too, is not a beef of mine. I don’t see how giving away more outs is going to lead to significantly higher run production. If anything, I feel like Bochy has a habit of leaving starters in one inning too long. If the leash is one base-runner, the pitcher shouldn’t be going back out there.
The real problem I see, and which you touch on, is Bochy’s major fetish for veterans and his constant line-up shuffling to find the hot hand. These habits are infuriating and do, I feel, hold the team back. If you’re going to fire Bochy, these are the ammunition.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I really don’t have a problem with the Giants moving on from Project Boulderskull at the end of the season. His limitations make him particularly ill-suited to managing this roster.
I have to disagree strongly. Whether you like it or not, this is a veteran lineup and a pitching-driven roster. Bochy is good at managing veterans and excellent at handing pitchers. It would be nice if this were a up and coming young offense, but it just isn’t. Outside of Sandoval and (fingers crossed) Posey, the young players in or near the majors are more placeholders than building blocks.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Can you elaborate?
I’m not disputing your observation, just trying to understand it.
Are you saying they haven’t enough talent to warrant serious consideration?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on May 24, 2010 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m saying that the best position players on the roster are mostly veterans, and the best players on the team are mostly pitchers. Bochy is good at handling these two types of players. Most of the younger positions players we do have (Schierholtz, Bowker, Ishikawa, Downs, pretty much everyone not named Sandoval or Posey) would probably be batting 7th/8th or coming off the bench in a decent lineup. Unless someone can come up with a reasonable argument for benching Sanchez in favor of Downs, Huff for Ishikawa, Rowand for Bowker, etc., Bochy’s bias against fringe youngsters isn’t really hurting the team as constructed (and I say fringe because he’s shown no problems playing young performers).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Most of the younger positions players we do have (Schierholtz, Bowker, Ishikawa, Downs, pretty much everyone not named Sandoval or Posey) would probably be batting 7th/8th or coming off the bench in a decent lineup.
Probably true, but one of the primary concerns here is we still don’t know for sure. After years of not being very competitive, with nothing to gain by playing veterans, we STILL don’t know how good someone like Schierholtz is.
by Missing Barry on May 24, 2010 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Totally with you on this
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I respectfully disagree, with the exception of Downs, these players all have a substantial enough number of major league at bats to draw some reasonable conclusions.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Really? How do you figure? Ishikawa and Bowker have barely cracked 500 career PA’s, spread over multiple seasons in sporadic playing time. Bowker went down to AAA and showed a complete change in his hitting approach. He has less than 100 PA’s, again in sporadic PT, since then. At no point have these guys had a substantial stretch where the Giants stuck with them through slumps. When guys don’t get regular PT, they perform worse, on average. It really does affect performance. Eugenio fucking Velez has more career PA’s than any of them. That doesn’t tell you something? I’m not saying to completely ignore what they’ve done at the MLB level yet, but statistically speaking, I don’t see how we can draw a confident conclusion we really know how good they are right now. Given how uncompetitive we’ve been for quite a while right now, that’s unacceptable to me. There was nothing to lose by playing them, we often played old guys who weren’t part of the long terms plans and who were just as bad in their place, and we chose Eugenio Velez to be the guy we stuck with over them. And because of it, we only have guesses as to how good they are. It’s absurd.
by Missing Barry on May 24, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
How many PAs would hand out to prospect?
1000? 2000? In real life, getting a season’s worth of at bats spread out over three years is a huge opportunity, and about the best that any non-elite prospect who hasn’t performed particularly well could ever hope for. It would be one thing if they were good in ~500 plate appearances, but they would have to improve SUBSTANTIALLY to be good.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Apparently you need this explained slower and louder.
We have veterans.
They are known quantities.
They can’t hit.
They will not get better.
We have prospects.
They are unknown quantities.
They might get better.
The VERY WORST the prospects could do is… also not hit, but for less money.
Capiche?
Proud parent of Will the Thrill, standard-bearer of The Giants Way.
"I was jacked leaving that room. I didn't even want to visit another room. It was not enough time," Tebow said. "We were excited, we were enthusiastic. There was passion. It was just intense, and it was ball, and it was juice. The juice level in that room was high, and it was awesome."
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on May 24, 2010 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Please, most of the veterans aren’t nearly terrible enough for this (and the ones who are play positions where we have no prospects anyway).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
They were last year. However, Winn buried Nate the entire year, making Nate an utter unknown still. This did not need to be the case.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
An “utter unknown” with a season’s worth of at bats, and over 300 PA’s last season?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Where did I find the word utter? Curses, Andre, why do you have to do things like that?
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Everything except the “capiche.”
Adoptive father of the enigmatic Michael Sandoval, and living vicariously through his proximity to Joe Mauer and the Panda.
It’s not about a total amount, necessarily. It’s about giving them a sustained chance – giving them those PA’s in regular PT. If someone like Schierholtz had a stretch of 400, 500 PA’s in one season and wasn’t performing, well then you can make a pretty confident conclusion after that season. When you’re talking about spot starts, getting taken out of the lineup the second things go bad for them, pinch hitting, spread over multiple years where their talent level probably changes some amount…….well, then you’re really fucking with the decision process and getting much worse data. We don’t need any sort of strawman 1000/2000 PA arguments here – there were clear times when we could have afforded to give these guys extended, sustained and regular PT. We didn’t. We made worse decisions than that. We have crappier data to use because of it.
by Missing Barry on May 24, 2010 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s about giving them a sustained chance – giving them those PA’s in regular PT.
What team does this? Unless their the A’s or on pace for 90 loses (and the A’s do it alot more often when they fit into he later category), teams don’t just hand starting jobs to mid-level prospects and let them fail for half a season without doing anything.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Couldn’t disagree more. When teams don’t have good options, and aren’t contenders/winners, they give their players a real shot. Dustin Pedroia put up an OPS+ of 42 in his first season of 98 PA’s, and you know what happened the next season? Well, in April/March he was given 65 PA’s and put up an OPS+ of 52. You know what happened after that? He kept playing, and started hitting. That’s the first example I thought of. And when we’re talking about “failing”, what do you mean, exactly? Less than replacement level play or something? These guys might not be very useful, but they’re not horrible, either. We’re not talking about Brian Bocock, we’re talking about guys who’s track record indicates they at least provide some value, even if it’s not as much as we’d hope. The value of finding out what Schierholtz can do with a real shot would have been a hell of a lot more valuable than playing Randy fucking Winn last season. It might have given us enough knowledge to save ourselves $12M on a worthless piece of shit like DeRosa (I actually don’t dislike DeRosa, just the process that brought him to us without ever finding out what our prospects could give us).
by Missing Barry on May 24, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Less than replacement level play or something? These guys might not be very useful, but they’re not horrible, either.
But also not better than the veteran players at their positions. What prospects/young players do the Giants have on the roster who are better than the veteran playing in front of them? Schiehroltz is playing. I don’t see much of an argument right now for Bowker over Rowand (or Torres), Downs over Sanchez, or Ishikawa over Huff. Posey over Molina will be another matter, but I think it’s pretty clear at this point that he’s in the minors until he’s sure to miss super-2.
As for “Rnady fucking Winn”, he put up 1.6 WAR last season. It would have been nice to platoon huim, but Nate bats from the wrong side (and if Bochy had put any stock in a couple dozen ABs of reverse platooning, he’d be an even bigger idiot than you make him out to be).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
That 1.6 WAR is very defense dependant, and there are legitmate questions as to how good Winn really is defensively. I’m not ready to give him full credit for his defense, which made up 1.5 of that 1.6 WAR. Schierholtz is a good defensive player, too, possibly as good or better than Winn, and all he would have needed to do is hit at a replacement level last year to outproduce Winn. Hey, surprise, he’s hitting above average this year and is projected to continue hitting the way he has so far.
Also, I’ll point out that Winn got more PA’s in every single month last season than Schierholtz got in any month. Even in September, Winn got more PA’s than Schierholtz did in any month of the season. Oh yeah, did I mention Velez has more career PA’s than any of the 3 guys we’re talking about here?
What prospects/young players do the Giants have on the roster who are better than the veteran playing in front of them?
Well, we’re paying Mark DeRosa $12M and we’ve given him more PA’s than Bowker and almost as many as Schierholtz.. He’s put up a 42 OPS+ with those PA’s. I don’t have a problem with Torres playing – initially I thought it was ridiculous for him to play against RHP, but he’s hitting, so it’s worked out fine (and I might have been wrong!), but it always seemed to me the evidence suggested he was better against LHP than Bowker or Schierholtz.
Rich Aurilia got 133 PA’s last year to put up a 39 OPS+. He got 440 the year before that (and he did ok) and 358 the year before that (and he sucked). Jose Castillo got 420 PA’s in 2008 to put up a 73 OPS+. Vizquel got 300 to put up a 45 OPS+. In ‘07 it was Vizquel, Durham, Feliz, Roberts, and Aurlia all getting significant PT while sucking really, really hard. I’m not making it up when I say there are opportunities to play our middle tier guys. In many of the examples I provided, obviously it doesn’t necessarily apply directly to Ishi, Bowker or Schierholtz because of positions, but the point is – if we can give 300, 400+ PA’s to old guys who aren’t part of our future who really, really suck and completely “fail”, how are we not finding that same PT for our middle tier prospects that might be part of our future? The reason we can’t give someone like Schierholtz PT is because if he sucks, it’s so obvious because the rest of our lineup sucks so much, because of the examples I named. Instead we piss away money on guys like DeRosa and Sanchez to block our prospects. It’s batshit absurd.
I have no doubt with a little bit of planning, a little bit of good management, and some actual good decision making focused on this teams long term future, we could have easily found time to let those guys sink or swim. It’s not that hard. You don’t play Aurilia at 1B ever, and let Ishikawa play there. You play Winn in CF and let Schierholtz/Bowker play RF and never sign Rowand to a stupid contract. You don’t sign Freddy Sanchez to get in Downs way, you don’t sign DeRosa and you find a replacement in CF, or maybe you platoon Schierholtz/Torres in CF, or keep Rajai Davis, or play Torres full time in CF…..there are lots of ways it could have been done. Don’t pigeon hole yourself into the Giants current roster construction, because that misses the point – the point is one of the results of good management would have been a chance for our prospects to show what they really have.
Instead, we get sporadic PT, we get management that tries to kill their confidence at every point, they have to get their PA’s pinch hitting, spot starting, and if they ever do get a shot, they get yanked out the lineup the second they don’t light the world on fire. Meanwhile, veterans who aren’t good and clearly not part of the future get all the opportunities the prospects deserve. It legitimately frightens me to think of what would have happened if Sandoval went into a slump like his current one early in his MLB career….
by Missing Barry on May 25, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That sums it up pretty nicely I think.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 25, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, we’re paying Mark DeRosa $12M and we’ve given him more PA’s than Bowker and almost as many as Schierholtz.
Who we sign and what we pay is a Sabean decisions. Additionally, while it’s nice to sit here in fan world as say that money shouldn’t dictate playing time, the fact of the matter is that once a team signs the guaranteed contract, the player is going to get every chance to succeed (or fail). Certainly more than one month. This isn’t a " Bochy won’t play the kids" thing, this is a reality of major league baseball.
Rich Aurilia got 133 PA’s last year to put up a 39 OPS+. He got 440 the year before that (and he did ok) and 358 the year before that (and he sucked). Jose Castillo got 420 PA’s in 2008 to put up a 73 OPS+. Vizquel got 300 to put up a 45 OPS+.
-133 PA’s is not very many for a bench player coming off a decent season, and he was essentially done at the end of June (only 3 starts after that point, weeks at a time with no play).
-Castillo played in a season when the Giants had no apparent alternatives; Pablo Sandoval started the 2008 season repeating A+ after hitting an unimpressive .287/.312/476 in 2007.
-Vizquel was blocking who, Bocock, Burriss and Ochoa? I thought we were talking about prospects. If you’re going talk about 2008, you should really be complaining about Rajai Davis (though the outfield performances were relatively strong that season, so his PA’s would have had to come largely off the bench).
In ‘07 it was Vizquel, Durham, Feliz, Roberts, and Aurlia all getting significant PT while sucking really, really hard. I’m not making it up when I say there are opportunities to play our middle tier guys
Feliz and Vizquel didn’t even really suck, if you include their defense. Durham his to well in 2006 to get the quick hook (and he was still OPSing in the mid-700’s as late as July). Aurilia didn’t suck (as you pointed out). And with all that, the ONE prospect they were blocking, Kevin Frandsen, still got over 300 PA’s (it’s the lost year in 2008 that really killed him, and Bochy had nothing to do with that). As for Roberts, see the DeRosa point above; no manager who likes his job is going to bench a guy who just signed a long term contract in favor of a middling prospect (both because of the money, and because said player presumably did something to earn the contract, something that it would take a significant sample of suck to ignore).
I named. Instead we piss away money on guys like DeRosa and Sanchez to block our prospects. It’s batshit absurd.
Sanchez, really? If we have some impressive MLB-ready 2B prospects I haven’t heard of, I’d like you to tell me about them. Certainly you can’t be talking about Downs and Frandsen, middling/non prospects who have no business being handing a starting job on a team trying to reach the playoffs.
You don’t play Aurilia at 1B ever, and let Ishikawa play there. You play Winn in CF and let Schierholtz/Bowker play RF and never sign Rowand to a stupid contract. You don’t sign Freddy Sanchez to get in Downs way, you don’t sign DeRosa and you find a replacement in CF, or maybe you platoon Schierholtz/Torres in CF, or keep Rajai Davis, or play Torres full time in CF…..there are lots of ways it could have been done. Don’t pigeon hole yourself into the Giants current roster construction, because that misses the point – the point is one of the results of good management would have been a chance for our prospects to show what they really have.
1) I think you’re starting to conflate front office decision (ie: who to sign) with managerial decisions (who to play).
2) The thing about all the players you mention (Ishikawa, Bowker, Schierholtz) is that we have a reasonably sized sample of their performance regardless, and it isn’ that good. Like I said above, these guys are placeholders that we should be looking to replace in the lineup in order to improve the team, not guys to groom as long-term starters. The guys have failed to produce positions players because they haven’t had many worthwhile position prospects, not because they’ve failed to hand enough playing time to mediocrities. Playing time isn’t a magic balm that makes prospects better, it’s a spotlight that reveals [lack of] talent.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
It happens.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on May 26, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Additionally, while it’s nice to sit here in fan world as say that money shouldn’t dictate playing time, the fact of the matter is that once a team signs the guaranteed contract, the player is going to get every chance to succeed (or fail). Certainly more than one month. This isn’t a " Bochy won’t play the kids" thing, this is a reality of major league baseball.
Really? Ask the Rays about the concept of “sunk cost” vis a vis a washed-up vet like Pat Burrell. He got cut after… let’s see… Huh! A month or so! How ’bout that! They were going to pay him either way; they could pay him to take up space on the bench, or they could pay him to go away and see whether Hank Blaylock had really figured it out at AAA.
Again, the Giants’ veteran hitters were terrible with a capital shitty last year; at the VERY WORST, the prospects would’ve given them the same results.
Considering that, there is just no excuse for the fact that Randy Winn got more playing time in September (or, for that matter, earlier) than JuggerNate. Everybody and their mother knew that Winn was not going to be a Giant in 2010, and it was equally obvious that his bat was just completely gone. So what’s that harm in seeing what else you’ve got? You aren’t seriously arguing that 500 ABs as a starter for one season is the same as 500 ABs scattered over three years of sporadic call-ups and pinch-hitting appearances, are you?
Proud parent of Will the Thrill, standard-bearer of The Giants Way.
"I was jacked leaving that room. I didn't even want to visit another room. It was not enough time," Tebow said. "We were excited, we were enthusiastic. There was passion. It was just intense, and it was ball, and it was juice. The juice level in that room was high, and it was awesome."
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on May 25, 2010 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s more of a punctuation dealie imo.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on May 26, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Considering that, there is just no excuse for the fact that Randy Winn got more playing time in September (or, for that matter, earlier) than JuggerNate. Everybody and their mother knew that Winn was not going to be a Giant in 2010, and it was equally obvious that his bat was just completely gone. So what’s that harm in seeing what else you’ve got?
The Giants were trying to reach the playoffs last September, and “Juggernate” hit .240/.279/.384 in the second half of the season (including .220/.273/.293 in September.
You aren’t seriously arguing that 500 ABs as a starter for one season is the same as 500 ABs scattered over three years of sporadic call-ups and pinch-hitting appearances, are you?</blockquote
You make it sound like he was rotting on the bench or something. When Scheirholtz was on the major league roster, he played virtually every day. Before last season, he STARTED most of the time he was on the roster.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Rec'd
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on May 27, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Fred Lewis?
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I think the problem Bochy with veterans is that he is often unwilling to bench them when their performance is unacceptable. Randy Winn (from the right side) and Edgar were awful in the second-half last year, yet were trotted out every day even though their performance was harming the team. Same with Bengie, to a certain extent. I think this kind of stubbornness has a more pronounced effect on an offensively limited team. There simply is no margin for error. Bochy’s errors can be bad and do hold the team back. On top of this, Bochy’s refusal to play youngsters (Fred, Nate, Bowker, Frandsen) means that the team either gave up on young players because their manager wouldn’t play them or is still determining – four years into a rebuilding phase – whether those young players can cut in the bigs. That’s ridiculous.
Bochy’s vet-love is not new, either. The Vinny Castilla situation in San Diego was so ugly because Bochy absolutely refused to bench the veteran 3rd-baseman. He was so stubborn that Castilla was eventually released because it was the only way to keep Vinny out of the starting line-up. The thing is, this really happened. Will this situation resolve when Buster and Co. arrive? Will they have to prove they can hit big-league pitching before they’re allowed to hit big-league pitching? That’s the current pattern, a pattern that Bochy has only broken for one, obviously special, rookie hitter. And could it be that Sabean signs so many veterans because Bochy is whispering sweet veteran nothings into Brian’s ear all night long?
I will acknowledge that Bochy is quite good with the pitching staff and this is a good thing because our pitching staff (well, at least the starting staff this year) is so strong. However, the argument could be made that a few mistakes in managing the pitching staff are more easily tolerated because the talent level is so high there. I for one am willing to walk away from Bochy and his obvious skills in favor of a manager who is more likely to effectively manage the young hitting talent that is coming.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
nicely stated
and ISWYDT
The thing is, this really happened. Will this situation resolve when Buster and Co. arrive?
“& Co.”? I wish I knew who they were, because I’d be excited to see them.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 24, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Bochy has his problems
but many of the things you complain about are not among them.
What makes Torres a #2 hitter and not a leadoff hitter? He’s the closest thing by far to a classic leadoff hitter on this team – speed, high OBP, sees a lot of pitches.
Postseason success, over as small a number of games as we’re talking about, is not that meaningful. See: Alex Rodriguez, Postseason Choke Artist (Except When He’s Not).
You complain about Bochy taking pitchers out too soon, but I would argue exactly the opposite: too often he sends his starter out for one inning too many (or, more frequently, less than an inning, as the bullpen has to try to clean up the mess).
Adoptive parent of Kevin Frandsen, now stopping gaps in...Anaheim?
Very well said
Rec’d
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
K.F.I.S.T.F.
Hoping for BowkerMania to get consistent playing time at AT&T Park
Agreed
The Giants do not have a true leadoff guy but Rowand’s their best option there simply because he does not feel the pressure of driving guys in (although he is in a bit of a slump right now).
Rowand has the 11th best OBP on the team. Not in the league, ON A VERY BAD OFFENSIVE TEAM. Combine that with lack of basestealing ability and you have a guy that is not a leadoff hitter. He isn’t in a slump, he just isn’t that good
+1billion
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 24, 2010 5:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree as well. You’re basically saying that Rowand should bat leadoff, not because he’s good there, but because he’s even worse at other spots in the lineup. That doesn’t make him a leadoff hitter, that makes him a player that should be on the bench. I would platoon Rowand and Bowker, with Torres and Nate playing everyday.
Buster Posey: "still not ready." - idiot of a GM
this
if Freddie Sanchez, Mark DeRosa and Aubrey Huff are the answer, I guess I just didn't understand the question.
So fucking THIS
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on May 27, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
As a Dodger fan
If he’s learning from Torre, you’ll get a lot of those Bochy problems you listed with Mattingly. Torre relys way too much on the hot hitter and has a very short leash on the starting pitchers.
Joe Torre is the same type of manager that Bruce Bochy is. They’re old school who do everything by the book. Give them great teams they’ll win, give them bad teams they’ll lose, and give them mediocre teams and they’ll be mediocre. A great manager just might make a mediocre team into a good one, but neither Torre nor Bochy have that capability.
Buster Posey: "still not ready." - idiot of a GM
who do everything by the book
If only they’d do everything by The Book…
by Missing Barry on May 24, 2010 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions
nah, they have the book
http://www.dummies.com/store/product/Baseball-For-Dummies-3rd-Edition.productCd-0764575376.html
Talk about finding the right/write guy!
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 24, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
fail
Make the Most Interesting Shortstop in the World into the Most Interesting Manager in the World!
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 23, 2010 10:32 PM PDT reply actions
Fearless Prediction:
Steve Decker should and will be the next manager of the Giants, and they will be a very good team under his watch.
Adoptive father of the enigmatic Michael Sandoval, and living vicariously through his proximity to Joe Mauer and the Panda.
Poll question should read:
Would you want anybody other then Bochy as the manager for your 2010 San Francisco Giants?
100% YES
I would rather see Steve Decker as manager. I’ve heard a lot of good things about him. I think we’ll be fine with Decker.
01.19.2010
r.i.p. buster posey
Wave them home Tim Flannery, wave them home.
by sanfrankid on May 23, 2010 11:02 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I'm not a big fan of Bochy, but..
…talent wins ballgames more than managers do.
I was arguing with a dude about Sabean on another board and got this for the (probably incomplete) list of free agent signings Sabean’s had the last 4 years or so:
Dave Roberts, Randy Winn, Aaron Rowand, Mark DeRosa, Mike Matheny, Omar Vizquel, Steve Finley, Rich Aurilia, Ryan Klesko, Bengie Molina and Edgar Renteria.
That is just an epic list of fail.
Omar doesn't belong on that list
but anyway I’d like to think the manager has some kind of input into what ballplayers are acquired to play on his team. And something tells me that when Botchy gets a call from Brain about the latest future pensioner being signed, he mumbles about gritty gamertude.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 24, 2010 5:57 AM PDT up reply actions
A few of these guys had their moments...
Like Omar Vizquel and Randy Winn.. Matheny doesn’t really belong there mostly because he didn’t overstay his welcome, and he particularly had great defensive skills.
I agree with the rest though.
by AmorVincitOmnia on May 24, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Winn's moments came when we originally traded him
we then signed him to a 3 year contract extension where he put up a 95 OPS+ as a right fielder.
Matheny’s defense was great, but he could never hit, and signing him was just classic Sabean rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It’s not a terrible signing if you’ve got a good team that needs a catcher, but for a crappy team that needs offense somewhere it’s a terrible signing.
Eh..
Randy Winn had a great 2008 season, as he was a 5 WAR player that year.
He was pretty solid in 2007, and was very good in 2005.
So like I said.. He had his moments, but he just overstayed his welcome.
I just don’t think the Matheny signing really mattered all that much.
If there were clearly better options, then maybe I’d see your point.
by AmorVincitOmnia on May 24, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Signings that don't really matter much
is classic Sabean.
As I said before, Winn’s 2005 was under his old contract. That Willie Mays impression got him a 3 year extension on his deal which ended last year.
Winn was a 5 WAR player in 2008, but only because he went from average to Roberto Clemente in right field for one year, then reverted back to type. It’s a fluke year.
Nonetheless, even if you say Winn, Matheny and Vizquel are hits, there’s still an overwhelming number of busts in Sabean’s free agent choices.
Jack Clark knows more about hitting than Don Mattingly.
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
isn't he going to take over for the Dodgers in 2011 after Torre retires?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on May 24, 2010 7:58 AM PDT reply actions
and who will not stand for bullshit (i.e. getting shut out, not being able to move runners over/drive them in/bad situational baseball play in general).
Will he be sitting down? Bochy or Mattingly can’t control poor execution.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
The Giants don’t give a crap about losing. Did you hear what Huff had to say after the last team meeting with the manager?
Something like this: " The meeting was friendly. Anyway we’ve been playing great ball with the exception of against one team and that just happens (coincidently) to be the team ahead of us in the standings."
That team also happened to be called the Padres – a team whom the Giants just happened to start a series against two days later. And the Giants just happened to get swept in that series.
I hear players saying crap like that after the team gets “straightened out” by the manager and I know it’s past time for a new manager.. (and wtf with that apathetic bullcrap Huff? way to bring the eye of the tiger onto the field.)
"There must be millions of people all over the world who never get any love letters . . . I could be their leader."
by cybermaldonado on May 24, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
How does Don Mattingly
have anything to do with your blocks of text?
by AmorVincitOmnia on May 24, 2010 11:50 AM PDT reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Get a grip: Reds’ Todd Frazier loses bat, still connects for home run (Video)
- Eric Hosmer redefines the Baltimore chop with infield double (Video)
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
