minor lines, 5/19/10
by steve S on May 20, 2010 8:35 AM PDT
in They Might Be Giants
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PrintWednesday highlights from the Giants' farm: Darren Ford reached base four times, Jose Flores had three XBH, and Kyle Vazquez and Kyle Nicholson each allowed just one run in their starts.
AAA: Fresno had their first scheduled off-day of the season
(Their next scheduled off-day is June 9.)
Grizzlies on PCL leaderboards in selected stats:
--Hitters:
AVG: Borchard 3rd, Posey 5th, Rohlinger 7th
OBP: Rohlinger 4th, Posey 5th, Borchard 6th, Bond 13th
SLG: Borchard 4th, Posey 12th, Rohlinger 14th
HR: Borchard 5th
RBI: Borchard 4th, Posey 12th
SB: Copeland 7th
--Pitchers:
ERA: Hacker 6th
WHIP: Hacker 8th
K: Hacker 5th
IP: Hacker 9th
W: Hacker 1st
Sv: Bautista 3rd
AA: Richmond lost to Erie 9-4
(after yielding six runs in 5th inning)
Richmond: CF Darren Ford: 2 for 3, 2B, 2 BB, CS
Richmond: SS Brandon Crawford: 2 for 5, SO
Richmond: 3B Conor Gillaspie: 2 for 4
Erie: CF Wilkin Ramirez: 1 for 4, HR, BB, 2 SO
Richmond: SP David Mixon: 4.0+ IP, 7 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 2 BB, 4 K--2 HR
Ford reached base four times, raising his OBP to .316. Crawford and Gillaspie also had two hits, but both infielders still have AVGs below .250. Wi-Ram, who made his MLB debut with the Tigers last year, connected for his 9th HR.
Mixon, who had allowed just 7 R in his last six starts combined, had his least effective start of the year, yielding two runs in the 1st inning and four more runs in the 5th inning. He allowed a season-high 7 H in a season-low 4.0 IP.
A+: San Jose defeated Visalia 4-2
(rallying for two runs in the 8th inning)
San Jose: RF Juan Perez: 3 for 4, 3B, 2B
San Jose: 3B Drew Biery: 3 for 4, SO
San Jose: DH Jose Flores: 3 for 4, 3B, 2 2B
San Jose: SP Kyle Nicholson: 6.0 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 4 K
San Jose: RP Jason Stoffel: 1.0 IP, 1 K
Playing in just his eleventh game this year, Flores had three XBH, extending his hitting streak to eight games. After a .361 OPS in 49 AB last year in the Sally League, the 22-year-old has hit .500 through his first 34 AB this year. This game was the first time he has shown any real secondary average as in his previous ten games he had no walks and just one XBH. Perez also had three hits, including two XBH. The red-hot 23-year-old has had eight multi-hit games in his last nine games, including 8 XBH in that time span. Biery was a third Giant with three hits, raising his AVG to .286.
With just one run allowed, Nicholson got his ERA below 6.00. Stoffel got his 7th save with a perfect 9th inning.
A-: Augusta defeated Savannah 3-1
Augusta: CF Evan Crawford: 2 for 3, 3B, 2B
Augusta: SS Sharlon Schoop: 2 for 2, BB, 2 CS
Augusta: SP Kyle Vazquez: 7.0 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 2 BB, 6 K
Crawford had his 4th triple and 2nd double. After hitting just .198 in April, he has hit .343 in May. Schoop reached base in all three plate appearance, but he didn't have such a good night as a baserunner being twice caught stealing.
Vazquez's seventh start of the season was his best start in at least a month, improving his ERA to 2.61. He got more ground balls outs than usual with a 10/4 GO/FO line.
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Clearly, Hacker knows how to win
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
sl
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
I saw this in the theatre as part of someone’s birthday party as an eleven year old, and thought that it was the coolest thing I’d ever seen.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Matthew Lillard was awesome. What ever happened to him?
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
my stepdaughter said that when she was a teenager. But she says that about many films.
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez
by foothillsfan on May 20, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I loved it as a kid because I thought it was so cool and I wanted to be a hacker and I thought that’s how hacking worked. I love it now because it’s just so ridiculous and awesome. I mean, come on:
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
"Knowing how to win"
Just a question: Is the “knowing how to win” aspect of things disregarding completely amongst you? Or do you simply feel its used too often.
To me, their ARE pitchers that pitch better when they are behind and their ARE pitchers that are murder with a lead.
Call it what you will. I don’t buy the “he knows how to win” as a be all end all. I don’t mock it either.
I think it is crap
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on May 20, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
atmo
knowing how to win =/= pitching with a lead, or pitching from behind. some pitchers are head cases (J Sanchez) and some have ice water in their veins (Timmy). If you want to call what Tim does “knowing how to win,” I guess you could do that, but it’s not an accurate term.
atmo.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
you just can objectify the mental aspects of the game
it’s like a lot of old-timey conventional baseball wisdom that get mocked: there’s simply no way to objectively evaluate whether it even exists and yet some insist that it does to no end. “They” often will cite wins as the evidence, but that’s such a poor stat to judge pitching performance, as has been amply demonstrated numerous times, that it simply doesn’t do the trick.
even guys pitching from behind or with a lead, I suppose there could be statistical evaluations of such, but wouldn’t that essentially produce a stat that could be just as easily be labeled “clutch pitching” and as such no objective way to establish it as a fact, just opinion.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
*cannot objectify...
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Agree you can't objectify
Where I take issue is that you should only evaluate on objective criteria. Obviously the objective is VERY impt. But the subjective plays a part as well.
Delorean’s comments are accurate. Subjective, yet accurate.
A great example is closers. Some can pitch the 9th and some can’t. It is as simple as that. And you cannot determine it solely from objective criteria. Because a BIG part of that role is persona and balls.
My favorite example of this is Rod Beck in ‘93. He pitched in something like 30 out of the last 35 games. He went out day after day after day. The last couple weeks, he had nothing. Except guile and guts. Time after time he’d get the job done. It may have been through 3 fly balls to the warning track, but he got it done.
Beck was never the same after this from a “stuff” perspective. His fastball never really came back. His WHIP went way up. As did hits per innings etc. Yet he had a couple very good years as a closer. Cause the guy simply had the biggest balls on the planet.
So my “plea” if you will is don’t rely completely on the objective.
Rod Beck
A great example is closers. Some can pitch the 9th and some can’t.
This is an incredibly overrated angle, I think. Usually, pitchers who “simply can’t” pitch the ninth are guys who just aren’t actually that good. There are occasionally guys who are headcases and really do implode in the ninth – LaTroy Hawkins is a familiar example – but that’s really a lot rarer than the conventional wisdom seems to think. Yeah, it’s not uncommon for a previously good reliever to suck as a closer – but that’s true of ALL relievers. They’re an unpredictable lot. Relief pitchers of all stripes can have a 2.66 ERA one year and 7.11 ERA the next (true story – Jim Poole). This happens just as often in middle relief and setup as it does with closers. It’s just that, when it happens with closers, we notice it more and assign more significance to it. Confirmation bias and all.
For the most part, pitchers “can” or “can’t” pitch the ninth according to how good their stuff and control is, and how overworked they are.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Ok i guess you are right
and every GM and manager in the major leagues for the last 20 years or so is wrong. Because the 9th inning is now considered the special domain of ONE guy on each team. And if it was just another inning, they’d mix it up , go with the hot hand etc.
Do you ever wonder why “closers by committee” never work? Some guys can handle the intense pressure some can’t.
You cannot simply throw a bunch of numbers up in the air and pull out who will be best. Sports don’t work like that.
and every GM and manager in the major leagues for the last 20 years or so is wrong.
Billy Beane doesn’t exist?
Also, appealing to authority, done in as broad a stroke as you’re doing here, is a pretty poor way to construct an argument.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Billy Beane exists
Vastly overrated, but he exists. In fact, his greatest contributions of late have been to the other teams of the NL West.
But since when did Beane have a closer by committee? And if so, when was is successful. Right now its Bailey. And he’s pretty damn good at it.
My argument was “constructed” well before my cheap shot regarding the 20 GMS!!!!
you should read Moneyball - even if you don't agree with what it advocates, it's a really interesting book
Beane (and other folks in his brain trust) repeatedly diss the idea of the all-holy closer. But they also recognized that other teams value closers highly, so they came up with the strategy of taking solid pitchers and “making” them closers – and then selling high on them. Billy Koch, Billy Taylor, etc. I was going to say they did the same with Jason Isringhausen, but he left as a free agent. I believe they got comp picks out of him, though, by offering him arbitration with no intention of actually bringing him back.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
He found a weakness in the market — for closers named “Billy”.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Before this year, Beane had used closers by committee pretty much throughout his entire career, especially from 2004 to 2009.
When was it successful? I don’t how you want to want to measure that. The A’s bullpen was overall very good from 2004 to 2009 (mediocre in 2004 and 2007, good to elite in all the others), if that’s what you’re asking. Not just according to ERA or FIP, but also according to context-dependent stats.
I was promised lasagna.
closer by committee? where?
Except for a few saves here or there, the closers were essentially the same. The one year you see a mix is the year when Street was injured and Embree saved 15+ games in his absence. Am I over looking something here?
by Nnamdi Asomugha on May 20, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree Moneyball is a MUST read for any baseball fan.
Closers are really not worth big money. The A’s go through closers like crazy and every year they have a solid one. When it’s time for the A’s to start paying for Andrew Bailey they will trade him a way and get big time talent for him, just like they did with Huston Street. It’s honestly amazing how Beane has a great bullpen year after year without spending large sums of money on quality arms. Chad Bradford, Keith Foulke, Justin Duchscherer, Jason Isringhausen, Kiko Calero, Jim Mecir. His ability to plug relievers in and out is really incredible.
by Nnamdi Asomugha on May 20, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
And “closers by committee” almost never work because teams rarely have enough relievers who’re especially good. When a team does have that much bullpen talent, there’s no reason why using multiple pitchers in the ninth inning can’t work.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
I don’t think it’s about solely relying on objective evidence, but what are you going to trust more, stats reflecting what actually happened on the field or something more akin to gut feelings and personal opinions (not that stats can’t be misleading.)
As for Beck, you could use “knew how to win” as shorthand for saying that he was equipped mentally to handle his job when he didn’t have his best stuff. That mental toughness most likely came from experience, good command of what he did have and some luck and nearly always pitching with a lead. Maybe that’s “knowing how to win” or “having heart” or “guts”, in which case I wouldn’t say it’s a proper object of derision, but “knowing how to win” doesn’t seem to be generally used that way. Typically, it seems to be used more as a reflection of W-L records, which is the more likely target of mockery and the phrase gets swept up in that.
So, I guess it just depends on how much emphasis you’re willing to put on statistical evidence and opinion evidence and mythology and voodoo.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
the other thing with Beck
As much as we love him, it’s easy to look at him through rose colored glasses. If you look at the record, though he also had his fair share of failure as a Giant.
He had 10 blown saves in 1995 (a shortened year, even), 7 in 1996, and 8 in 1998. That’s 25 in three years.
Armando Benitez had 14 for us in 2 1/2 years.
None of which is to say that Benitez was better than Beck, I should clarify.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Most closers have a fair amount of failure
Beck had some of his best years after leaving. And while he may not have left his heart in SF, he surely left his fastball. Nonetheless, he had at least one 50+ save year with the Cubs.
Closers break down at a high rate. Unlike any other slot, they can’t afford to let down at times. They have to be throwing their “A” stuff, whatever that may be that day. And that HAS to take a toll on the arm.
Closers break down at a high rate.
This is true. But it’s true of relievers generally. Show me a closer who broke down rapidly, and I’ll show you two middle relievers who did the same thing. Show me a guy who was a good middle reliever/setup man but suddenly fell apart when he started closing, and I’ll show you two relievers who suddenly fell apart without changing their role.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
It has nothing to do with pitching with or without a lead. When you’re giving up 2 or 3 runs per outting on a consistent basis and getting losses and no decisions, it is not because you don’t know how to win.
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
by Useful_Idiot on May 20, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL MATT CAIN
7-16, 3.65 ERA
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Useful Idiot
As I’ve said, the “knowing how to win” is greatly overused. It’s just not useless. Some guys are better with the game on the line. Period.
We all know that from the sports we played. Some handle pressure situations better than others.
The argument that the statistical community uses is that the vast majority of the OMG CHOKE players are weeded out far before they get to the majors. There’s a lot of stressful baseball to be played before you get to the bigs.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
For example:
Who do you think is under more stress:
1. the top prospect struggling at Triple-A. (Madison Bumgarner, for example)
or
2. Mariano Rivera, a multimillionaire, closing Game Seven of a World Series?
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
But how is Bum struggling?
He’s pitching very well right now. I understand your argument – the pressure to get there is more than the pressure to perform there. It is a valid point. But you said the 7th game of the WS. About a billion people are watching. NY is not exactly a cozy place to fail.
But don’t ask me the question: Go ask Mitch Williams. Or Donnie Moore (if you could) or the kicker on the Bills that was wide right on the SB game winner (I forget his name).
“the kicker on the Bills that was wide right on the SB game winner (I forget his name).”
This doesn’t help your argument — and not just because you couldn’t remember his name (it’s Scott Norwood).
See, Norwood was always an accuracy guy, who really stuggled to kick anything deep. On his deeper kicks, especially on grass, he’d lose more accuracy than most because he really had to concentrate on getting maximum distance — 40-45 yards was even pushing it for him because his leg strength was so far below average. That Super Bowl season, Norwood was just 3-for-5 from over 40 yards on grass.
So, how long was that kick he “choked” on in the Super Bowl? 47 yards. I have a friend who is a Bills fan, who didn’t even want them to attempt the kick because Norwood “didn’t have the leg” to be accurate from that distance. So what you saw as a choke was seen by someone more familiar with the situation as entirely predictable.
Oh, and Donnie Moore was badly injured and had cortisone shots in his rib cage just before the game where he gave up Henderson’s HR, and according to this account, Doug DeCinces “expressed disbelief” Gene Mauch would even use him under those conditions.
It’s easy to say a guy “choked”, it’s much harder to actually look into the details of why a particular guy failed in a particular situation.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
How do you figure? Player #1’s life and future are on the line—-what could be more stressful than that?
Let me put it this way: which guy would you trade places with?
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Who would I trade places with
Rivera. But that’s not the same question. Look, as I said, I get your point and it is not invalid. Your comparison was not a good one.
If you are asking who has more pressure – 24-26 or the superstars, I agree with you.
The problem of course, is that the superstar will be allowed to fail. 24-26 don’t get that luxury. So it comes full circle a bit.
Some truth to that.
But the bottom line is at every pro level in every pro sport there are guys that cut it when the chips are down and guys that don’t.
Sanchez threw a one-hitter a few weeks ago and lost. Are you gonna say that he choked by giving up the one run?
Honestly, I think we’re talking about the issue in different contexts.
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
by Useful_Idiot on May 20, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I think “knowing how to win” and “clutch” are two different issues for a pitcher
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/10: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
Green and Gold Till the Club is Sold- LUHG
by Useful_Idiot on May 20, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
and also
A lot of the conventional wisdom about who is clutch and who isn’t is bullshit. Like how Bonds sucked in the postseason (until he didn’t), or how everyone thinks Derek Jeter is the Golden God of the postseason (his postseason line is very good, but very similar to his regular season line), or how people thought Joe Carter was Mr. Clutch because of that one awesome home run, even though his postseason line for his career was thoroughly unimpressive: .252 / .282 / .445.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Some of the CW IS
BS. On that we agree. But the premise that there are not players who shine more often than others at key moments is a little hard to digest.
Well, good players shine more often than bad players, for one thing!
And there are guys who are headcases, certainly. I don’t think anyone disputes that.
But I don’t think this kind of thing is as important as it’s traditionally been made out to be.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
GBU
Good: JCP (aka half-man-half-machine), Belt, Ford (his OBP in May is .364, up from .316 on the year), Kyle Vazquez, B Crawford (his OBP in May is .414, up from .351 on the year)
Bad: Mixon
Ugly: Medders regressing to the mean (past the mean?) in one inning
-credit to Marcello for coming up with the Medders line
Please tell me we have moved past the dark ages of post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Hacker
any chance he gets called up over Pucetas as 5th starter if Wellemeyer gets sent to the bullpen?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
If Hacker is pitching well at the time, sure, why not? I’d like to see Pucetas, but a fill-in for Wellemeyer could be pretty much anyone. All I don’t want is to see Bumgarner forced into that role earlier than he should be.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
THIS
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
by Cody_ransom on May 20, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Pucetas is on the 40 man
as I recall
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez
by foothillsfan on May 20, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I was about to say he isn't
But now that I check, he is.
There was a lot of confusion last year, when Pucetas wasn’t on the 40-man, but Kelvin Pichardo was. A lot of people saw Pichardo on the 40-man, an mistook him for Pucetas. But they did add Pucetas over the offseason.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
oh yeah
i had completely forgotten about Joey.
this org is lousy with possible 5th starters!!
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Hacker may well be the best pitcher on that staff, but he’s not on the 40-man, so they’ll probably try a couple of other options first.
This is incredibly relevant. Thank you.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Yes but it could be a good way to exterminate Vrooooooom
Adopted Nut: Paraparaumu, New Zealand native, Andy Skeels
Good things about Joey:
AAA stats
56.8% GB, 2.7 BB/9, 6.97 K/9, MLE’d FIP of 4.54
Ask me about my blog.
Also, I’m amazing that Wellemeyer has a BABIP of just .217 with the Giants.
And yet, he’s still horrible.
Ask me about my blog.
someone’s full of himself today…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, he is pretty flexible.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on May 20, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
he’s giving up a ton of HR
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Also walks
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
Hacker is not likely to get the call unless he reels off another 4 or 5 awesome starts in a row.
Remember, he’s not on the 40 man roster, while Pucetas, Joey, and MadBum are all on the 40 man. To call up Hacker we’d have to DFA somebody on the 40 man.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I hadn’t thought about that. Hacker for Velez!
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
How bad would that hurt?
A: Not at all
B: All of the above.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
by Cody_ransom on May 20, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
When are they going to give this Borchard kid a shot? Their anti-stanford bias is showing.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
1. invent time machine
2. go back and kill Hitler
3. Have Borchard be good at 20 instead of 30
4. profit!
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
I wonder about this idea sometimes. I think older minor leaguers may be an undervalued resource. For those older players, their ceiling drops with each birthday, but what’s the reason to think that an older AAA player couldn’t have figured it out a couple of years late? Physically there’s still a chance to contribute at the major league level.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Seriously. Borchard is not on the 40-man, but I’d DFA Velez for him. I see no downside there. No more Velez is actually upside to me.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Well now that’s a good call.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
if Whiteside can figure it out late, surely, Borchard can to.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
1. invent time machine
2. go back and kill Hitler and scott spiezio
3. Have Borchard be good at 20 instead of 30
4. profit!
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on May 20, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Crawford 5th starter etc.
1. Crawford. His average is going up. More importantly his OPS is second on the team. Timpner is first and he doesn’t count.
I have a question for our Minor Lines host – is Richmond is a pitcher’s league? The PCL is obviously a hitters league. We know that. I know that when they played in Conn that park was a bear. What about Richmond etc??
2. 5th starter. Quite simple – if Wellmeyer has a couple more outings like last night and Bum a couple more like his last, we will have Bum as the 5th starter.
Frankly, I expect that to happen around June 15.
3. Borchard. AAAA hitter. STILL if an OF goes down, I’d give him the next shot. I don’t ever want to see Velez in SF again. No one at AA is ready and I don’t think there is another viable AAA outfielder. Every once in a blue moon, teams catch lightning in a bottle with an over 30 guy. We are talking about the 25th spot. Personally, if it opens, I’d take the shot. If he doesn’t work out, so be it.
I’m against bringing up Bumgarner this year.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I think he should take all year to develop his secondary pitches and prove that his velocity is still adequate. I think that with a full year in AAA he’ll become a much better pitcher. Unless he improves his secondary pitches, I expect major leaguers to eat him up.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s 20?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on May 20, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
And still learning his own mechanics?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on May 20, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
If they waited
for pitchers to “learn” their own mechanics they’d be waiting forever with most. The age thing is a red herring. Either he’s the most able and ready or he is not. He’s been pretty consistent after his awful start. I read somewhere (baggs I think) that he is now consistently low 90’s.
As a 5th, you only expect 5 or 6 innings anyway. That means twice through the order. His “secondary” pitches (they called it breaking stuff in the bad old days!) is potentially an issue. But I trust Decker and Tidrow to have an idea if they are sufficient at this point.
My biggest question: Are the Giants a contender or not? If yes, then you bring him up if you think he is the best option. If no, then I agree, wait.
If they waited
for pitchers to "learn" their own mechanics they’d be waiting forever with most.
This is pretty much a…..strawman, I think? Something like that. I always get my fallacies confused. Anyway, it doesn’t hold water.
Bumgarner isn’t “most pitchers,” for one thing. He’s a 20-year old pitcher in his second full pro season and he’s had mechanical issues so significant they threatened to derail his career. It looks like he’s on the way to sorting them out, but when you’re dealing with that promising of a pitcher and that serious of an issue, it’s crazy to try to rush him. The risk of promoting him too soon while he’s still sorting out his issues and thus fucking up his development is very significant – the benefit of having a fifth starter who would probably but not certainly be at least a little bit better than the several other options is not very significant.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
You had me at “He’s a 20-year old pitcher.”
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Next year he'll be a 21 year old pitcher
So suddenly he’s ready? As for the risk of screwing him up, that is the one statement I agree with. Interestingly, its an old school thought on a new school board. Pitchers are advanced VERY quickly now and allowed to learn at the major league level. Didn’t happen in the days of 20 teams, 4 man rotations and 10 man staffs.
Again, either you trust Decker and Tidrow or you don’t. If they believe he has the makeup to handle it, then I go with it, if and only if he’s the best option.
Some pitchers (Tim Lincecum, for example) can advance very quickly. Others need to be brought along more slowly. It depends on a lot of different things.
And I don’t know what it’s at all “old school” to think it’s premature to promote a pitcher like Bumgarner to the majors at such a young age. Between the first and the supplemental rounds of the 2007 draft, there were 12 high school pitchers taken. Only one of them – Rick Porcello – is in the Majors at this time. He’s eight months older than Bumgarner – and he has an almost 6.00 ERA.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
“Next year he’ll be a 21 year old pitcher”
Can you name one 20 year-old starting pitcher (or 21 year-old starting pitcher for that matter), who has had success in the majors without an effective breaking ball?
“Again, either you trust Decker and Tidrow or you don’t.”
As far as I know, neither has said he was ready to be brought up, so my level of trust in them is irrelevant.
“If they believe he has the makeup to handle it, then I go with it, if and only if he’s the best option.”
That’s the whole point of this debate, though, isn’t it — whether or not he is the best option? It’s kind of like saying, “I disagree with those who don’t think Bengie Molina shouldn’t bat cleanup. I think he should bat cleanup, if and only if he’s the best option.”
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Damn typos!
“don’t think Molina should bat cleanup.”
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Josh
If you are right on Decker/Tidrow, then we agree. To me – its their call.
I agree with your last sentence as well. I have no doubt he’s the most talented. Course that doesn’t mean he’s the best option.
What I mean by “best option” is simple: the guy that can best get major league hitters out today.
One thing I DO know. Wellemeyer ain’t long for the slot. He’s a long reliever. At best.
Totally agree.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
and as for age
Part of the issue is that it’s pretty well documented that pitchers in their late teens/early twenties can break down really easily if they’re overworked. Another part of the issue is that, at that age, pitchers just don’t have that much meaningful experience. This can lead to any number of issues, including – oh, say, mechanical problems and lack of secondary pitches. Just for example.
If Bumgarner was pitching like Strasburg, it would be one thing. If he was pitching this year in AAA like he in 2008 in the Sally League, I’d be all for calling him up to dominate. But he’s not. There are a lot of really good reasons to be cautious with Bumgarner at this point. There’s just no reason to rush him, and a lot of reasons not to.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Work
can be monitored at the big league level. I fail to see how he’s any more likely to get hurt in the bigs.
Well, if the Giants find themselves in the midst of a pennant race, and Bumgarner’s pitching well, do you think Bochy’s going to hold him to a strict pitch count?
I don’t.
Anyway, that’s just one reason why, as I said, his age is relevant to the discussion.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
That is a valid point JCB
But I actually think he will. Now I may be nuts.
At this point, it’s a stretch even to think he’d be better than the alternatives. He has been severely outpitched by Martinez and Hacker so far this season.
If he can put together another six or eight starts like his last few, then I’d start thinking about bringing him up.
I’ve always been a Bumgarner optimist for some reason!
But I still don’t think he should be brought up until late in the season at the earliest.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Not that this applies to your comment specifically but it belongs on this tangent
I don’t think the Giants have the luxury of waiting for another handful of Wellemeyer starts before making a decision. I think it needs to be made right now. I believe the Giants need to start flinging their AAA poo against the 5th starter wall and hope something sticks.
With that said, I do not think the first piece of AAA poo should be Bumgarner.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on May 20, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Poo-cetas! He’s got “poo” right in his name — not to mention his game.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
MOST OUTSTANDING PITCHER!!!!
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
That's fine then
if its now – Pucetas is the guy. Hacker will take a 40 man spot . What I don’t know about Hacker is … everything. He’s come out of nowhere. But I get the impression (and tell me I’m wrong PLEASE) that he is essentially a below average arm that right now has very good command. Quite honestly, I’ve seen too many of those that get called up in their late 20’s cause they “know how to pitch”. Bottom line – they get lit up. If not sooner. Later.
OTOH if he has an above average arm, then that is another matter altogther.
My order of preference for in-house 5th starters goes
Martinez, Pucetas, Bumgarner (he’s at the end just because his secondary stuff is still pretty meh)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
This
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Bum's secondary stuff - meh
Query: Has anyone seen any of his starts?? Martinez and Pucetas stuff PERIOD is meh. Pucetas hits to IP ratio is a little scary. And Martinez has a “heavy ball”. So did Munter.
Not in person, but I’m pretty sure he pitched at least one of the San Jose Giants games that was aired last year. That was before his velocity really started tanking, though.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
Martinez has FIP numbers which make it appear he could do fine for a 5th starter.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Severely outpitched
hacker yes. He has outpitched everyone. Martinez – you have to sell me. Numbers wise, he’s no better. And given that Bum gave up 21 hits in his first 7 innings, I have a hard time “seeing” how Martinez is throwing better. But you may actually go to Fresno games and have an idea from your own eyes. If so, I defer.
Generally, I think Martinez is a middle inning guy at best.
heck, he might still be growing. So his mechanics would constantly need tuneup.
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez
by foothillsfan on May 20, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I blame his parents for that
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 20, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
He should go out a hero.
I don’t ever want to see Velez in SF again.
The money lies in the RBIs
-- Jeff Kent
ooof
i was this || close to picking him up for my pokemans today
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
NOBODY CARES
/positive euphamism
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
gads
they were already starting Winn…
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 20, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The Eastern League is very much a pitcher’s league. The Richmond ballpark probably boosts batting averages while cutting home runs, but that’s based on old numbers and things may have changed.
Thanks
You do a great job on this. It’s one of the reasons I check this site daily. Course, some here may find that a negative!!!
Your Anti-Salsa Bias Is Obvious
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on May 20, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not his fault guacamole is superior.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on May 20, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Not too early to CONSIDER
As I said, he needs to string a couple more strong starts.
Man, the bias continues
Freddy Sanchez is nowhere to be found in Minor Lines YET AGAIN! When are we going to replace this hack with someone who can tell us what we want to know?
Goodbye, Steven Johnson, we hardly knew ye. Seriously, that was short.
by quincy0191 on May 20, 2010 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Crawford goes deep today
1-3 with a walk and a three-run homer. The kid is coming on!!! I’m totally biased. I know his mom a little bit as she was a teacher at my girls Elementary school. One of my kids played on a softball team with Crawford’s sis.
Very nice family. Lifetime Giant fans to boot. Thus I root for him.
There’s a McCoven (though I haven’t seen him post in a long time) who grew up a friend of his, too.
And I do agree with you that Crawford’s performance so far this year is encouraging – so there’s that!
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
We agree on more than you think
My “stubborness” on this board is met very well by the “stubborness” I get in response. I listen to the numbers arguments and I take stock in what is said. I do think that some here are as “set” in their “new ways” as you so us old farts being set in ours.
In any event, I enjoy the debate.
I’m a fan as well, though my bias is limited to just the fact he’s from the Bay Area, grew up a Giants fan, and is their best shot at not having Sabean sign Edgar Renteria/Neifi Perez/Mark Belanger to a multi-year deal deal in the off-season. I also like what I hear/read about his glove, and I’ve liked the way he looks at the plate when I’ve had the chance to see him (not that my SCOUTING EYES! should count for anything).
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 20, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I read Belanger as Benzinger
…which still opens old wounds.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing. Because all 50th Round picks go to heaven (or at least extended spring training).
Enjoy your free Fred Lewis, Blue Jays.
I can't believe I'm about to say this but maybe the Giants should
give Joe Borchard a chance in the majors. He probably will fall flat on his face but it’s better than Eugenio Velez.
Also when is this Juan Perez going to stop hitting lol? This guy’s BABIP must be unbelievable.
by Nnamdi Asomugha on May 20, 2010 3:36 PM PDT reply actions
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