Schierholtz Must Start in RF
I do not understand the logic here. Bowker won the starting RF job after his great spring training performance, but Bochy is keeping him out when the opposing starting pitcher is a lefty. I'm all for giving Bowker the starting job, but I say either give him the RF job at all times or don't give it to him at all. And what's even more stupid is that Torres is getting the RF starts instead of Schierholtz when Bowker is not in the lineup. As of today, Torres is 1-14 at the plate, with his sole hit not leaving the infield. I understand he hustles and does well on defense, but is that not what late-game substitutes are for? Why is Schierholtz the late-inning substitute instead? Schierholtz plays a solid RF and has the best arm of all the OFs, and is a far better batter than Torres. Schierholtz must start over Bowker because Bowker is too inconsistent. For one thing, he receives an inconsistent amount of playing time. Also, he does not hit for average in the majors the way he does in the minors and I do not think the Giants are willing to waste this season to watch him potentially develop. Schierholtz can work the pitcher and coax a walk, and can rack up hits consistently. Bowker can hit a two-run homer one day and go 0-5 the next. Honestly, I just want to go with the most consistent player available on a daily basis, and that player is Nate Schierholtz.
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I’m having trouble following some of this.
Schierholtz must start over Bowker because Bowker is too inconsistent. For one thing, he receives an inconsistent amount of playing time.
Schierholtz should start over Bowker because Bochy gives Bowker inconsistent playing time? That doesn’t sound like it’s Bowker’s fault. Either I’m misreading what you’ve written or this just doesn’t make sense to me.
Schierholtz can work the pitcher and coax a walk, and can rack up hits consistently.
Nate has a walk percentage of 4.4% in the Major Leagues. Even in the Minors, his BB% was never above 5.6%. That’s absolutely horrendous, and indicates that he’s very much a free swinger and doesn’t work the count.
It remains to be seen if he can “get hits consistently,” but he most certainly does not work the count.
Also, I would very much like to read everything it is you have to say and digest it. But it is nearly impossible when everything is posted as one big paragraph.
Triples Alley: Analysis of the San Francisco Giants, Baseball, and Sabermetrics.
1) It’s not Bowker’s fault that Boch doesn’t believe in him enough to play him every day.
2) Schierholtz, this season (from the spring), has shown more patience at the plate, unlike recent years, to which you are referring.
3) Sorry it’s one big paragraph.
Bandwagoners are the prostitutes of fandom.
Schierholtz has had a grand total of 13 plate appearances- just because he looks “good” in slightly over a dozen PA does not indicate a revamped approach whatsoever. The sample size is excruciatingly small.
He will most likely regress to his mean as his plate appearances increase. But, if he actually HAS learned some selectivity, the difference will most likely be a marginal one. I doubt he’ll double his walk rate to match a league average hitter at walks.
Triples Alley: Analysis of the San Francisco Giants, Baseball, and Sabermetrics.
Well, he's a more consistent hitter than Bowker.
That is all.
Bandwagoners are the prostitutes of fandom.
We don’t actually know which player is more “consistent,” given that neither player has received consistent playing time with the Giants.
Triples Alley: Analysis of the San Francisco Giants, Baseball, and Sabermetrics.
Over the last 5 years, we had 4 straight losing seasons and have basically not had very good OF play from our team in general, and somehow we STILL haven’t figured out if any of these guys are viable options (and we ran the one who looked like one out of town)……sigh. Doesn’t “rebuilding” generally involve figuring these types of things out?
by Missing Barry on Apr 18, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
If you’re run by a competent front office, yes.
Triples Alley: Analysis of the San Francisco Giants, Baseball, and Sabermetrics.
Well, Nate should start against lefties because he is batting over .300 against lefties in his career. Much better than Torres. And defensively he adds another element. However, Bowker is the far better hitter so far, so start him against righties.
Warriors:Nellie needs to go! but while we suffer....John Wall or Evan Turner please!
Giants: Wheres Buster and Freddie?
Platooning is a time-honored way to break young players into the big leagues. I’m a Bowkermaniac and I’m in favor of his sitting against lefties.
But the real problem is the manager’s short attention span. Whoever’s “swinging a hot bat” is going to play, and everyone else is going to sit on the bench and get rusty.
Ya, I agree. I also do not like that tendency of Bochy's.
Platooning can work and will serve the team very well, which would thereby render the entire RF competition null and void.
Bandwagoners are the prostitutes of fandom.
I would be all for this but Bork only seems to employ the whoever’s ‘swinging at hot bat’ theory as long as the guy isn’t a cagey gamer. Any veteran on this team gets a free pass.
It's tragic high tide
by TheBigLeBowker on Apr 18, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd be ok with Bowker platooning
if we had a guy like Jonny Gomes or Ryan Garko. I’m thinking last year was fluky and Torres can’t hit anyone.
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
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Also I know Garko isn't an OF
I was using him as the type of hitter that would’ve been a better platoon guy than Torres.
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: Better than any SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
by Gobroks on Apr 19, 2010 1:15 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Torres has no business being on a MLB roster anyplace
His career OPS is .650. OPS+ of 73. He is worthless save for the random BB. He didn’t all of a sudden get good in less than 200 Giants ABs at the age of 31. Because of Sabean, career minor leaguers like Shierholtz, Bowker, Ellison, Torres, Torasco, and Linden, and career-is-over types like Roberts, Winn, Alou, Hammonds, Ledee, Mohr and Grissom have been starting in the Giants outfield for years…years that happen to coincide with no post-season appearances.
by E Ticket on Apr 19, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
sure he does
Like Mohr, in fact, and Winn now on the Yankees, he can run and field and is a good 5th/6th OF. He’d be handy if the Giants needed a late-inning defensive replacement for a good hitting, poor fielding OF. Unfortunately he’ll be retired by the time that player exists on the Giants.
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by natteringnabob on Apr 19, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
That is, assuming you even believe in the value of defensive replacements.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
What’s the point of icing when you have no cake?
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by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 19, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I do not like this analogy
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Apr 19, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
What’s the point of crust when you have no pie?
Better?
Proud member of The Gentlemen of Leisure.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 19, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Okay
What’s the point of a condom if you have nobody to have sex with?
Can we all agree on that one? Please?
Proud member of The Gentlemen of Leisure.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 19, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
To not make a mess.
Warriors:Nellie needs to go! but while we suffer....John Wall or Evan Turner please!
Giants: Wheres Buster and Freddie?
That is what Zito’s striped socks are for.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Apr 19, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
What’s the point of a condom if you don’t have pie?
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Apr 19, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Condom Crust…
Sounds like somebody who plays for the Dodgers
by E Ticket on Apr 19, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Bowker should have the majority of starts in RF
Bowker can hit a two-run homer one day and go 0-5 the next.
So could every other baseball player, ever.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond.
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Apr 18, 2010 9:23 PM PDT reply actions
Not Duane Kuiper.
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It’s funny. I almost put in a disclaimer about Kuip. Ha
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Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Apr 18, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably neither of them is any long term answer
But Bowker has in AAA demonstrated a nice combination of power and patience that we desperately need. Schierholtz is better defensively, and his spring troubles probably stem from his attempt to develop plate discipline. If that were to succeed—and odds are overwhelmingly against it—he could be a solid player. But if he’s going to keep hacking away at inside breaking balls, he’s useless.
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by Giantsfan4life on Apr 18, 2010 10:21 PM PDT reply actions
BOWKER HAS HAD HIS CHANCE!!!
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John Bowker: The New Problem
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by EliminateMe on Apr 19, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I called it!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Apr 19, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Seriously though Bowker should start
he has much higher upside and made PCL pitchers his bitch last year, while using a new approach (which would lead me to assume he would’ve suffered through some growing pains while attempting). At the end of the year I wouldn’t be shocked if Bowker was the clean up hitter (though I suppose that is more indicative of my feelings on Huff although he has surprised me in a SSS)
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: Better than any SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Grrr . . . .
Torres is 1-14 . . . .
If you want to assert positively that Eugenio Velez, Bengie Molina, and Travis Ishikawa are, in that order, the three best batters on the Giants—which, on the 2010 stats through and including Saturday the 17th, they are—do so and we’ll go on from there. If you are not willing to assert that, then stop taking silly potshots at other players based on 14 ABs. Were it me, I’d give the everyday RF job to Torres as his to lose, and I don’t mean in a week or even a month. Notice that I’m not swearing on a stack of Baseball Prospectuses1 that he can absolutely, positively do the job—but I am saying that there’s plausible reason to think he could, and lots of reasons to think he’d at very worst still be better than Bowkerholtz.
As has been noted, Nate Schierholtz—while he is a fine fielder and probably is nice to little children and small animals—is not a major-league batter. His worst numbers come from the season in which he had the most playing time. What, exactly, is supposed to be left to find out about him?
And Bowker’s major-league numbers are even worse. But, because after a stint with the Big Club, he was able—as virtually every player in the same circumstances has been—to beat up AAA pitching, he is seen as the next peelable banana. Demonstrating what Dr. Sam famously called “the triumph of hope pver experience”, his fans think he should get playing time. I agree—provided we’re speaking of Fresno.
Amusing sidebar: Velez’s career offensive productivity (through & including Saturday’s game) exactly equals Schierholtz’s. both are more than 10% better than Bowker. Read ’em and weep.
……………..
1 Or is that Prospectii?
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Why not make Torres the CF while Rowand is out
if Torres keeps hitting then slide him over to RF, but since he’s currently the Giants best defender in CF why not let him play there for the next 2-3 weeks?
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: Better than any SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Because he’s a 32 year old career minor leaguer who serves perfectly adequately as a 5th OF but shouldn’t be relied on too heavily beyond that?
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Well I agree he shouldn't start
But if he is going to start shouldn’t he play CF instead of RF?
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: Better than any SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
by Gobroks on Apr 19, 2010 7:10 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You forgot the part where he was a pretty fine hitter last year…
Given his defense, performance last year, and the fact that none of our other guys are great options, I think Torres is our best option for CF with Rowand down, and if none of the other guys perform, might be just as good an option as them in RF. Also, Velez just really sucks, so I’m ok with anything that keeps him out of the lineup.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions
So you’re going to take the evidence of 170 PA over 10 years of professional experience. Really the 2008 season in Iowa (when he was a 30 year old hitter in AAA) is the only particularly good one he’s ever had.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Torres is making a bid to become the next Fred Lewis on MCC. Seems like we’ve been arguing about him a lot lately.
2008 was his best season, but put all his AAA stats from 2004-09 together and you get something like .283/.363/.442. That’s not great, but it suggests that he wouldn’t be the worst everyday CF in the majors. And he’s surely above average with the glove.
That said, he’s now 32, so he’s probably not going to be as good going forward as he was then. And we have some young outfielders who need at-bats. So I’d probably try Schierholtz in center and reserve Torres for starts against lefties.
Let the record show that I was on the Torres Is a Bad Baseball Player bandwagon since waaaaaaaaaay before it was cool.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Yay!
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I was on it all last year, but I’ve fallen off it a bit this year. I’m now on the “Torres isn’t that good, but is good enough to be on an MLB roster and maybe even as good/better than our other current options” wagon….
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think most of the “10 years of professional experience” is particularly relevant at the moment. Guys do change their baseball ability over time, and more recent production is much, much more telling about a guys current ability than production from multiple years ago. I’m not going to make the case that Torres is all of a sudden a good hitter, I do think he was lucky last year, but at the same time, I don’t think you can definitively make a case that he hasn’t improved substantially in the last couple years. There’s some evidence he just might have done that. Overall, I think CHONE’s projection of a .318 wOBA or ZIPS of a .315 wOBA are probably pretty close to the best estimate of his true talent we can come up with right now. That’s a decent amount below average offensively, but with his defensive ability, and considering our other options are ALSO below average hitters…..well, I don’t see a problem with giving Torres time right now. He can give a team some value, and our other options are not very good at the moment.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Our other options are pretty grim, but I can’t find a way to make them worse than Andres Torres, at least with the bat. I’m not really a believer in Nate Schierholtz, but his AAA numbers are miles better than Torres’s and he’s six years younger.
but his AAA numbers are miles better than Torres’s and he’s six years younger.
See, I’m not sure that they are. I’ve given my best estimate of Torres ability with the bat – ~.315-.318 wOBA. Nate’s best MLE (using minor league splits) is a .791 OPS but with only a .313 OBP – not sure exactly what the wOBA on that is, but that’s his best line, and he has worse ones…..I’m just really not sure Nate’s track record really is any better than Torres at this point in time. Marcel, just the simple 3 year weighted average with some basic adjustments, has him at only a .326 wOBA, though the other projections are all much more optimistic….
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Forgot an important point – Torres Marcel is .348 wOBA, so just using a 3 year weighted average, basic adjustments (like park and league adjustments), and some basic regression…..and we can see Torres recent past is, in fact, better than Schierholtz’s.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
But Marcel ignores minor-league numbers altogether. Which means the sole input is Torres’s 170 plate appearances in 2009.
In 2007-08, Torres and Schierholtz were both at AAA. Torres hit around .303/.382/.502, which was a quantum leap above anything he’d done before. Meanwhile, Schierholtz hit .328/.364/.580.
Defense probably makes up the difference, but consider that Schierholtz was 23-24 at the time. I don’t think it’s a close call as to which is more likely to be a contributor going forward.
(But I’d still take Bowker over either.)
I thought Marcel included minor league numbers. If it doesn’t, then yeah, it’s not worth bringing into the discussion.
I’m also keeping my end of the argument to “who can contribute more right now”. If Schierholtz isn’t clearly better than Torres right now….well, then frankly, he’s not good enough to worry about what he’ll bring in the future, because he shouldn’t ever be a starter…..
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Just so.
Makes sense to me. Well, hm (scratches bald head) . . . I reckon it could be argued that in Park-Of-Many-Names RF is even more critical than CF.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Actually we did argue this
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/4/2/1402152/right-field-the-burkstowinnian
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: Better than any SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
But only marginally more important, though, as defense is wildly overrated… correct?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Correct. Even adjusting for the sark factor.
But attention to even lesser details matters in a sport this sensitive to nuances. Good defense can mean a game or two more a season, and though that is wildly less than many current claims, it can still be the difference in a season.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wow, at first glance I thought you wrote “even adjusting for the suck factor” and I thought, geez some of our guys might come out looking pretty good with that adjustment.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
The spark factor has to do with how much intangible value is assigned to Timmy’s smoking buddy.
Utter frustration and futility.
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by Johnny Disaster on Apr 19, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I voted Nate
Mainly because I think he has messed up his swing through the trials of Bochism, and stands a good chance of rebounding (even if he still has 1 hbp/strike per season) and finding his power (but not for finding a BB%>6). Bowker, I think, will be exposed again by big league pitching, and maybe he can work a few more walks, and he’ll certainly bop a few dingerz. I mostly think this about them, because it is the opinion and hope I have been nurturing for a couple of years now, and because I’ve been more impressed by Nate than by Dr John-boy Bowker when I’ve seen them play. But i didn’t watch the HBP/swinging strike games. So there is some bias in my sample.
Velez, I might be coming around on… but isn’t he the oldest? For now we are still talking about proven candidates for the 4/5 outfield spot and hoping they can prove they belong in the starting lineup.
But really, if DeRosa is out the outfield is obvious: Ishi, Velez, Torres. Go Giants!
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Ishikawa, the Topps Rookie All Star Team's First baseman. Does he get a chance in 2010?
Fuck that piece of shit steroid female hormone using Manny Ramirez
I like what I’ve seen of Nate so far this season, but it’s just a few at bats. Bowker did it over a full season at AAA last year, and continued to do so all during spring training and the first couple of weeks of this season. (when he’s played) They made the commitment to Bowker as the starting RF, and I see no reason based on his play the first two weeks that he should be benched.
Dumped Edgar Renteria and adopted Buster Posey. Biggest upgrade since George Jefferson moved up to a deluxe apartment on the east side!
Because If he’s on the Giants roster, they might actually have a chance at and in post season.
And because he is way better than anything the Giants can throw out there other than Sandoval.
And because the Giants would actually have a bona fide cleanup hitter for the first time since Bonds was healthy, like 2004..
And mainly because he wouldn’t be hammering hanging sliders thrown by Giants pitchers, an opportunity he will get 15 more times this year.
Because pro sports is about winning. Not a personality contest.
by E Ticket on Apr 19, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s two weeks into the season and I’m not writing Bowker off. He hasn’t had consistent playing time and that’s not his fault. Give him more PA’s and then if he’s not producing after a while, then we’ll see. Though it’s only a super small sample size from Nate I like what I’ve seen. It seems that he’s getting a little better with pitch recognition but again it’s only a small sample size so I’m not going to be saying that Nate’s plate discipline has been transformed. I’d like to see Nate in RF and Bowker in CF or the other way around.
01.19.2010
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Nothing must happen
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Bowker does deserve a chance but not ahead of Nate. Nate was almost carrying the team at the plate last season before he decided to run into the outfield wall and hurt himself. And I love Nate’s D. I don’t mind seeing those two platoon as long as they are getting consistent ABs and I don’t have to watch Velez and Torres take any starts away from them. Nate looked okay at the plate those last couple of games against lefties (this is completely meaningless to the Bork of course).
Be careful with me. I'm sensitive and I'd like to stay that way.
Disagree, not sure exactly what you’re referring to with Nate, but he had one good month of 19 total PA’s before sucking the next month and sucking overall and looking a lot like a poor man’s Randy Winn last year, which sucks.
Overall I’d rather give Bowker a shot because he showed some semblance of a hitting approach that might actually work at the MLB level – plate discipline, solid K rate, solid BB rate, power……
by Missing Barry on Apr 20, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions

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