Madison Bumgarner = Jesse Foppert?
I got a question answered on the latest Baseball America podcast. I asked about Bumgarner's velocity, and whether he could be another Jesse Foppert.
The bad news: they said yeah, he might be.
The good news: they don't think he's hurt (at least not yet).
The other bad news: but they do see some serious problems with his mechanics.
about 2 years ago
jcb9
75 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
…and ultimately, they seem optimistic that he can adjust, although they say he’s “lost a little bit of his shine” as a prospect.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Oh, and the Bumgarner question gets answered first, a few minutes into the podcast, so if you don’t care about the rest of the stuff you can just listen to that pretty easily.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I definitely don’t feel as excited about Bumgarner as I once did but I still think he’s young enough to still have a great future ahead of him
by 49erEmpire on Mar 26, 2010 9:18 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Exactly. Taking a step back off the fast-track doesn’t necessarily mean he’s doomed. He’s still just a pup.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Mar 26, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
If only some devastatingly handsome and brilliant Norwegian would have pointed this out 2 months ago. =)
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 26, 2010 9:25 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah. It just didn’t have the same effect when you did it.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Mar 26, 2010 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions
$23 million!
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
He already won2 Cy Youngs. hes past catching Foppert disease.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Mar 26, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Reduced Velocity And Command Just Like Foppert
This could be a strong indicator that a serious injury is in process as was the case with Foppert.
It just doesn’t really matter if this happens before (and even preventing) MLB success or after (even after two straight CYs).
by giantsrainman on Mar 26, 2010 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe it is a major reason the organization is stepping up the extension of one Matthew Cain. Read somewhere where an NL scout or front office guy said Matt Cain would be the guy he would sign long term if he had both pitchers.
Git r done
Reduced command? His walk rates have done nothing but go down each year.
Surely you aren’t using spring training stats to make this assertion.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
SPRING TRAINING FREAKOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
No one is past catching Foppert disease.
Since Foppert disease is sudden loss of velocity and control followed by major surgery (possibly with a side of hiding an injury).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
That's not really "Foppert disease"
That’s called “aging”
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
(at least the velo)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Two Entirely Different Things
Age should have nothing to do with either Lincecum’s or Bumgarner’s reduced velocity. They are both too young for this to be a factor.
by giantsrainman on Mar 26, 2010 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Not really
Attrition is still attrition, no matter what age you are.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Wear and tear? If Lincecum puts up numbers like this through his age-32 season entirely as a Giant, I’ll take it.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
No kidding. Oswalt threw 181 IP last year and it was his lowest by far in 6 years. He’s topped 200 IP in 6 of his 8 full seasons, and in 3 of those been over 230. And yet he’s a career 135 ERA+ pitcher.
If that’s wear and tear sign me up!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Really
I always thought Oswalt needed to pitch deeper into games and pitch more than 6.1 or 6.2 innings a start.
I remember a quote from Oswalt when he was 29 yrs old and was talking about Lincecum. Oswalt mentioned that the innings/pitch count could catch up with any pitcher. It was not so much how you threw in any one season rather it would be an accumulative effect.
Oswalt has averaged 221 IP over his 9 seasons. The numbers do not show any tendency to leave games early.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 27, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
My Q about Neal was answered, too!
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Mar 26, 2010 10:09 PM PDT reply actions
Apparently he is, But Manuel mentioned some other player who wasn’t on the top 100 that he’d have put ahead of him.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Mar 26, 2010 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to worry about Bumgarrner
He is a gamer, a real bum gamer. He will be fine and better then Wellenmeyer or Pucetas. He is better than Vanlandingham, Jerome Williams, Ainsworth, Forppert, Hennessey and Correia combined. If his velocity dropped from 94 to 89, and Timmy’s dropped from 98 to 92, I would suggest we get the gun fixed. Speaking of Velocity, How did that speedy jumpy fastball work out for Merkin Valdez last year?
by bradleybear on Mar 27, 2010 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Coulda, woulda, shoulda
"And we plead and we pray for a glimmer of day,
As the night folds its wings and descends, exposing the loose ends."
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Two More Words
Beau Mills
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
That’s the dude I wanted!
These pretzels are making me thirsty
by NuschlerFace on Mar 28, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Lots of 20 year olds have mechanics issues
But most of them weren’t in the big leagues last year. I really think its something that can be fixed with the right coach…lets just hope this Pat Rice fella is the guy to do it
I don't know.
There are alot of pitchers with bad mechanics, there aren’t that many whose bad mechanics lead to a sustained drop in velocity. For the all the scout/coaching talk of players adding velocity through tweaked mechanics, I don’t think I’ve ever seen evidence of it happening. Certainly not on the scale of 4-5 MPH. While I’m not ready to throw it out as an explanation entirely, at the very least it’s often used as baseball doublespeak for “we have no freaking clue why this is happening”.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
For the all the scout/coaching talk of players adding velocity through tweaked mechanics, I don’t think I’ve ever seen evidence of it happening. Certainly not on the scale of 4-5 MPH.
Maybe I’m wrong, but my recollection is that the Giants did just this with Jonathan Sanchez after he was drafted. As I recall, Dick Tidrow identified an issue with his mechanics that significantly improved his velocity, and moved him from being a 27th round draft pick to a Top 100 prospect.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I recall that Sanchez was always a hard thrower. If anything, he’s lost a couple MPH. It’s generally my impression that tweaked mechanics lead to a more repeatable delivery and improved command more than improved velocity.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Let me ammend that.
At the professional level, tweaked mechanics tend to be more about making a healthier, more repeatable delivery and have little effect on velocity. With rank amateurs, learning the basics of mechanics can work wonders.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
jcb’s right about the story of Sanchez being scouted and drafted (although it was the scout who suggested the change in mechanics, not Tidrow) and he supposedly added 5-8 MPH after that change. That said, his K/9 rates in college were pretty similar to the what he’s always put up as a pro, so it’s hard to say. That is the story the organization told, though.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Interesting.
The only thing I can find about Sanchez’s early career is John Sickels’ “Not a Rookie” retrospective, which notes that Sanchez had essentially the same velocity in his first season as he has now (90-94 MPH). Combined with his complete dominance in College (huge K rates, 4 no hitters), I have to think that he wasn’t working with a mid-eighties fastball (which is what he’d have to have done for the 5-8 MPH improvement to be accurate).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Huge dominance in college at Ohio Dominican, though. It’s not like he was playing in a powerhouse league.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
The story is quite possibly apocryphal — a bit of scouting legend myth-making. And it’s much more than possible that I pulled that 5-8 MPH figure out of jcb’s ass (you find the craziest stuff up there!). That said, here’s the salient portion of Sanchez’ writeup in the 2006 Prospect Handbook, when he was the #6 prospect in the system:
Sanchez starred at NAIA power Ohio Dominican despite a delivery that left him pushing the ball. Scout Sean O’Connor recognized a player with arm strength and mechanics that could be fixed, and the Giants stole Sanchez in the 27th round in 2004… The change has pushed the velocity on his fastball consistently to the 93-94 mph range with excellent life and sink.
What’s interesting is that the story of scout projecting improved mechanics pushing his velocity is nowhere to be found in the 2005 Handbook, where Sanchez is the #23 prospect:
On the second day of the 2004 draft, San Francisco looked to NAIA power Ohio Dominican for a pair of picks, taking Sanchez in the 27th round… Sanchez, who holds the schoold records for strikeouts in a game (16), season (105), and career (311), helped pitch the Panthers to three straight NAIA World Series. He impressed the Giants with his aptitude in IL, then drew the attention of scouts in winter ball by having one of the best fastballs in a down year in his native Puerto Rico. Sanchez has a loose, quick arm that generates 92-94 mph heat despite his slight frame. His fastball is a swing and miss pitch when he commands it. He has to iron out his mechanics and hone his curveball, and work on a his changeup to remain a starter in pro ball.
Reading both those, it seems most likely to me that Sanchez’ velocity was already there in college ball, and they’ve worked on his mechanics to try to improve his command and make the delivery more repeatable.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
They tried changing Bumgarner’s mechanics right after they signed him. He pitched so terribly they just had him go back to what he was doing in high-school. I don’t know if they want to try it again.
I was promised lasagna.
But think about it from a PR point of view. If they let him throw like he’s used to, and he blows out his arm, he’ll be another Foppert. But if they change his delivery now, when he’s still a top prospect, and he doesn’t make it – regardless of whether or not it’s because of the new delivery – the media and fans will never let Sabean forget it.
I was promised lasagna.
You know
If Mad Bum ends up being a bust, that great draft we had that year ends up being hugely disappointing.
As it is, it’s already pretty disappointing.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
I still have some hope for Noonan.
But ugh, every other pick was such a huge bust.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
And yet we still have a much improved farm system. You can’t win em all. Plus we shouldn’t have expected the Giants to find 3 All-Stars. :(
The much improved farm system appears to be due to a much worse major league team. The top-10 picks have been great, but the later picks have been nearly as bad as always (maybe worse, the Giants had some decent picks in the late first/supplemental rounds in the early 2000’s).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
It's kind of hard to call Alderson a huge bust
Even if he turns out to be a 4-5 starter.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
He’s a bust for the Giants, regardless. All we got out of him was less than 100 AB of Freddy Sanchez
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Fewer than, jporny!
I believe I’ve corrected you on this before.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Whoops!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Duh.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
jponry is incapable of error.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
jporny, however…
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Eric Hosmer redefines the Baltimore chop with infield double (Video)
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
