Fifth Starter: The Poll
by GiantPain on Mar 19, 2010 6:56 PM PDT
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We all know that this is one of the most contentious issues that still needs to be resolved. We have a few worthy candidates, all of whom are trying to prove themselves.
Todd Wellemeyer is the grizzled veteran. He had a great 08, a terrible 09, but insists that he's feeling more like his 08 self. Wellemeyer has looked pretty good in ST thusfar, take that as you will.
Kevin Pucetas is one of the young guys vying for the spot. He was, at least from my impression, considered a longshot for the 5th starter spot. That is, until spring training. Thusfar, he's gone 9 innings without an earned run, and has given up only 3 hits. His strong ST performance seems to have raised his stock to the extent that he's being considered seriously for the 5 spot.
Madison Bumgarner is the young phenom who we're all aware of. His 09 in the minors was exceptional, and he even looked good in a few late-season call-up games. But there seem to be more questions than answers from Bumgarner, from decreased velocity to endurance. Though he came into ST looking like the 5-spot was his to lose, he might just lose it.
Joe Martinez is perhaps a longer-shot candidate for the spot; he spent parts of last season in relief and started a game or two, pitching decently but not overpoweringly. He's been limited in spring training, pitching only one inning and giving up a ton of runs. Subsequently, we were told that he has "elbow inflammation", and he hasn't been seen since then.
There may be some other option I'm overlooking, so I'll include and "other", which includes the longshot options of signing Pedro Martinez or John Smoltz or something.
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Ah, so
I realize that this thread has been made before (http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/1/28/1273722/rounding-out-the-rotation).
My only defense is that is hasn’t been made lately, and that spring training has happened since the last time we had the poll. Plus, we didn’t have Wellemeyer back then. And if that isn’t a game-changer, I don’t know what is.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
My Son was the third most valuable Giant position player by WAR in 2009. A little sad, a little happy.
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by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 19, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
No Quarter
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by victor frankenstein on Mar 19, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Two Buck Chuck
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by victor frankenstein on Mar 20, 2010 3:43 AM PDT up reply actions
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by Giant among Angels on Mar 20, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
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by natteringnabob on Mar 20, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
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"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 20, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions
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flagged
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 21, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Data.Tree
/nerd
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
I hope its Pucetas
but it will probably be Wellemeyer.
by crazedcrustacean on Mar 19, 2010 8:32 PM PDT reply actions
pretty much this
doan worry, poplo loe he team, he wan get berry good for body to play the beisbol
by Tim LinCyYoung on Mar 19, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Since Wellemeyer was signed to a minor league deal with ST invite what player does he take on the 40-man roster?
Steve Johnson cleared waivers and was returned to Baltimore, leaving the Giant’s current roster at 39, meaning there is a spot for Wellemeyer. However, if Wellemeyer and Guillermo Mota or Denny Bautista make the team, my guess would be Fred Lewis would be traded or waived.
by mark30perq3 on Mar 20, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
If that happensmy guess would be Fred Lewis wouldVelez should be traded or waived.
Fixed
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
Re-fixed
If that happensmy guess would be Fred Lewis wouldVelez should be traded or waived, but we all know the awful truth that it’s going to be Lewis who gets waived or traded.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Sadly, this
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 22, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
It’ll be Wellemeyer because Wellemeyer can opt out of his contract if he doesn’t land the job, or something along those lines. I think they’d rather have Wellemeyer and fall back on Pucetas than Pucetas with Bumgarner as the only other option.
by fantastical on Mar 19, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
that makes sense
and therefore will never happen.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 19, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
5th starter/Long relief?
I kinda think Wellmeyer and Pucetas will both make the opening day roster. One of them will the 5th starter and one will be the long man (TWSS) and back up the 5th starter if he farts and fails
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
It might just be cause he's my son
but Pucetas is pretty ok as an in house 5th starter option! I mean, he doesn’t have super good stuff, but outside of last year’s aggressive promotion, he’s always gotten danged ok results. Would it be nice to be able to keep him in AAA, see if last year was growing pains or an indicator of true talent, and use him as an emergency starter candidate? Maybe. But, I don’t think anyone rational thinks Bumgarner as 5th starter right off the bat is the best idea, YEAH JOEY isn’t feeling good, and Wellemeyer… well, it wouldn’t kill me if they used him. But I think they’d get pretty similar production out of both, and Kevin Pucetas is a spectacular pitcher, you know.
Spring training stats don't count. Unless you're talking about Kevin Pucetas.
wait,
he is your son?
I think it’s worth giving him a shot early in the season. He’d be new to the league and could change up things for a few months. I wouldn’t expect him to remain the 5th starter all season, but I think a little seasoning at that level would be great. He could go back to AAA to work out kinks if they arose, and if he sticks the Giants will figure it out now instead of waiting much longer when Bumgarner is going to be more on the radar. Get the guy who’s got it together now.
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Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Pucetas. Just as the prophecy foretold.
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"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 19, 2010 9:06 PM PDT reply actions
It’s going to be Wellemeyer because they lose him if it isn’t. They have options on both Pucetas and Bumgarner, and there’s a clause in Wellemeyer’s contract that says the team has to inform him of their plans for him before the end of spring training, and if he doesn’t like them he can declare himself a free agent.
Dumped Edgar Renteria and adopted Buster Posey. Biggest upgrade since George Jefferson moved up to a deluxe apartment on the east side!
What if Wellmeyer makes the team as a long reliever?
What then? Huh, smart guy?
I voted Pucetas with the idea that Wellmeyer would go to the ’pen. It would be nice to start grooming a young starter to move up in the rotation since it might eventually take trading Sanchez to get that elusive big bat.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
I'll give you that
I would think Wellmeyer would stay under that arrangement, but I just don’t see that happening. I don’t think there’s room for both of them on the Opening Day roster, especially with all those Thursdays off where the team can use four starters if they choose. Pucetas stunk at Fresno at the end of the year, and he came to camp with a lot of excuses. He’s certainly looked good this spring, but let him go to Fresno and pitch every fifth day and show that those excuses actually were the reason he was throwing batting practice at the end of last season.
Dumped Edgar Renteria and adopted Buster Posey. Biggest upgrade since George Jefferson moved up to a deluxe apartment on the east side!
he says it was (lack of) conditioning
[April 1st-Aug1]…..10-2……3.23 era…..21 gs…128.0 IP…117 h…51-46 r-er…11 hr…39-74 bb-k
[Aug2 to Sep3]…….0-4….12.48 era…….7 gs…..31.0 IP…..56 h…44-43 r-er…..4 hr…11-22 bb-k
not sure its the only reason but he probably deserves benefit of the doubt. Consider he goes from San Jose to the PCL and puts up those kind of numbers for 4 months – did they finally get some kind of a book on him or ?
by Lunatic Fridge on Mar 21, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Bumgarner is far superior to Wellmeyer and probably Pucetas
they are all probably better than Zito.
Really… I don’t think any of them are better than Zito. And I don’t think Bumgarner is superior to any of them, at this point. But other than those two points I agree with you.
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Which means
They don’t agree on anything?
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I like Joe
But I went with Pooh. Wellemeyer is pretty meh to me
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
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the kid got his brains beened out of him n im a sucker for a a feel good story
by slackersphere17 on Mar 20, 2010 3:24 PM PDT reply actions
I voted Pucetas, but I’m fine with Wellemeyer, especially if he’s only making a couple starts the first month (with the time off).
The three younguns could all be decent starters down the road, a little AAA seasoning can’t hurt. No rush.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
I voted Pucetas too
But if Wellmeyer keeps that kind of performance up, I’ll change my mind.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
TWSS
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 22, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I voted "other"..
there is no other of course, but I am standing by that choice.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
Beyond the Big Phone Dome !!
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
Steven Johnson.
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Mar 21, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
He didn't die he just went to a "Horse shit city"
/Aubrey Huff
//Masturbation joke
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Either Way
If one fails, the other will most likely get a chance. This town is apparently big enough for the two of ’em…
Combined, Wellemeyer and Pucetas have a spring ERA of about 0.95. They also 5 walks and 7 strikeouts in 29 innings.
One of them’s going to get the job and get clobbered. Then the other one’s going to get the job and also get clobbered. We just have to hope Bumgarner’s ready by then.
Yup. Although my hope’s pretty low for Madbum right now. I might go with a stealth option of Henry Sosa hope, except I’m starting to wonder if they’re going to shift him to the reliever stream given his usage this spring.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I’ve been wondering the same thing about Sosa’s role.
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 22, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Not good clubhouse behavior.
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 22, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
0 K in 7 IP (Bumgarner’s line) ain’t so hot either.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Why get bent about strikeouts?
If a pitcher is effective at inducing grounders or manageable flies then isn’t an out an out?
I’ve seen this strikeout – happy commentary pop up from time to time and it’s baffling.
I made a fanshot once about Jim Barr throwing ten innings – and winning – against the eventual WS champ Reds and some clown snarked about the lack of strikeouts. Hell, as long as they don’t get hits you’re doing your job.
And Pucetas seems to be doing his.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Mar 25, 2010 4:21 AM PDT up reply actions
The list of modern major league pitchers who don’t get many K’s but also don’t allow many hits is a very short one. So short it doesn’t even exist – someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t find a pitcher in the entire majors who has consistently put up a poor K/9 and a good H/9. Not one in the entire major leagues.
If a pitcher can consistently avoid allowing hits without striking people out, yes, it doesn’t really matter that he doesn’t strike people out. But hoping that Pucetas (or any other prospect) can be that pitcher is hoping that he’s mastered a skill no other pitcher in the majors has.
I was promised lasagna.
I hope Pucetas has mastered a skill no other pitcher in the majors has.
Hope springs eternal.
Eternal Spring hopes.
/orders case of Avacor hair restoration formula, London bridge, beachfront Nebraska condo
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Mar 26, 2010 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions
This is the 5th starter we're talking about.
I’m sure a lot of other teams would be thrilled to have decide between Wellmeyer and Pucteas for a 5th starter.
With all the 5th starter skips they can do early in the season, they can probably keep the clobbering to a minimum.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
There probably really isn’t a player that exists as a 5th starter anyways, it’s usually just an amalgamation of poorly skilled pitchers (AAA, long relief bullpen guys, etc.). Which is what Wellemeyer and Pucetas are. Neither are really good and neither should get 12+ starts in the “5th starters role”.
You could probably make the argument for the Giants that as bad as their offense is, they need every bit of pitching help that they can get.
#1 FanShot Champion
Exactly. The Giants can’t afford to lose every fifth game. Last year in the period after Sadowski’s first two starts and Penny coming onboard the team went 2-7 in that fifth man slot. That’s a two-month period covering July 8 – Sept. 2, in which the starting pitchers (Sadowski and Martinez) combined to put up a 10.55 ERA, and much worse, averaged less than 4 IP per start obviously creating a spillover effect on the other 4 days because of the strain they were putting on the bullpen.
If you have any hopes of winning a division (and your hopes are pinned to your pitching staff) you just can’t live with a situation like that long-term.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I'm not convinced Wellemeyer will get clobbered
Over the last four years, there’s been more decent than bad. Of those, 2009 was the only year that was truely bad. I’m not sure what happened last year. Looks like his BABIP spiked up quite a bit, so maybe he was just unlucky.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Get ready
for POOOOOO-cetas
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
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