Trading Defense for Offense
This past offseason, the Giants have made a couple of decidedly mediocre maneuvers to try and improve one of the worst offenses in the major leagues. Success came in 2009 on the backs of great pitching and a solid defense and despite ranking at or near the bottom in most offensive categories. The additions of Aubrey Huff over Travis Ishikawa, Mark DeRosa over Randy Winn, and Freddy Sanchez over Emmanuel Burriss are all, at the very least, lateral moves with upside. However, with the offensive upgrade, the Giants have sacrificed some of the key components of a defense that posted a team UZR of 51.2 in 2009, good for fourth in the major leagues. Combining this excellent defense with one of the deepest and best pitching staffs and a little luck led to a significant improvement over 2008, and one might wonder if the defensive downgrade will cost as much as the offensive upgrade returns.
The Opening Day lineup last year included Ishikawa and Winn, two players who contributed very little offensively and quite a bit defensively. In their stead are Huff and DeRosa, almost assuredly offensive upgrades and defensive question marks. While DeRosa’s outfield ratings are good, they do have small sample size issues attached; he’s only spent 412 innings in left field, presumably his primary position in 2010, and about 1600 innings total in the outfield (spread over nine seasons, which doesn’t help the credibility factor), about half of what’s recommended to be able to form an accurate assessment of a player’s defensive ability. He’s on more stable footing at second (2236 innings) and third (2408 innings), but is below average at both positions. Shortstop and first base suffer from an extremely limited sample size, but again DeRosa is below average at both positions. While possibly a valuable defender in the outfield, DeRosa is a liability in the infield, and he does stand to get multiple starts there with the glut of outfielders the Giants have and his positional versatility.
Aubrey Huff, meanwhile, will almost certainly not perform as well as Travis Ishikawa with the glove, considering he has been a DH for much of his career. But he’s a good bet to be at least as good for six times the price (copyright Brian Sabean) offensively. On paper, however, it looks like the runs Winn and Ishikawa stole on the field and gave back at the plate will now be the same runs DeRosa and Huff steal with the bat and give back with the glove. So where’s the upgrade?
Here’s where we get subjective, and ironically enough, subjectivity is the problem. I simply don’t think that any defensive metric is accurate enough to represent the true value of a fielder. UZR, fielding percentage, some third metric, none of them are devoid of observer bias. Certainly UZR is the best stat we have for measuring a player’s defensive skill, but even that has a five-run margin for error (and certainly the potential for more).
Perhaps it’s because I don’t understand UZR all that well, but there’s a big part of me that doesn’t trust it. The subjectivity of the metric (and subjectivity is why I’m not even going to talk about fielding percentage, because that’s just ridiculous) compared to stats like batting average, on-base percentage, and slugging percentage on the hitting side just make me skeptical. If I see a guy like Nick Johnson, I know he’s going to get on base 40% of the time. Ichiro is going to get a hit one-third of the time. These are rock-solid facts that I can count on (if they still hold water once luck is accounted for) because there is no room for interpretation: the hitter either got a hit or he didn’t. I don’t have to temper every stat citation with a disclaimer that says “Stat may be unreliable and thus relatively meaningless”. I can look at Freddy Sanchez’ ridiculous +19 2006 and say that he had an equally ridiculous .364 BABIP (40 points above his career average) and 27.5% LD% (3% above his career average) so I wouldn’t expect him to repeat that performance, and I can say the opposite about his -17.2 2008. But when he posts a +14.2 mark defensively (2005) in his first full season, I don’t really know where that came from, and I don’t know if I should expect it to continue. His subsequent seasons of 6.3, 9.2, -1.8, and 7.4 seem so wildly erratic, it’s hard to have faith in UZR; I understand why you might have an up or down year if your BABIP is fluctuating, but shouldn’t you be more or less the same defensively year-to-year? Certainly a general decline is expected, but looking at Sanchez’ numbers, I’m not sure it’s possible to predict a player defensively unless they’ve posted multiple consecutive seasons in the same general territory.
And that right there is why I think the Giants’ decision to trade some defense for some offense is a good one: offense can be predictable, while defense really can’t, and offense can be evaluated with a fair degree of certainty, and I don’t think the same can be said of defense. Maybe Huff is a +10 defender this year, Renteria goes +5, and Sanchez and DeRosa are both in negative territory. Combined with the strikeout nature of the staff (tops in the majors in K’s last year), I’ll trade unreliable defense for reliable offense any day. Of course, it’s arguable whether Huff, etc. provide reliable offense, but the overall point seems valid.
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The team’s offense was so wretched that any sacrifices made to improve it were most likely worth the risk. The unfortunate thing is that there were plenty of in-house options that could have provided similar improvements.
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The really unfortunate thing is that it’s not clear that any improvements were made.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2010 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
DeRosa and Huff, when looking at career numbers, are better bats than what we had before (Velez and Ishi/Garko). The big question is whether they bounce back from awful 2009s.
The team’s offensive strategy is praying for a lot of players to rebound from bad 2009s. Rowand, Sanchez, Renteria, DeRosa, Molina, and Huff all played poorly last year and make up half the goddamn lineup. If they do bounce back (I think at least a few of them will) then great, but if they don’t, some other options (Bowker, Lewis, Torres, Posey) better get a shot.
by fantastical on Mar 15, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m smelling a lot of “if” coming off this plan.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
DeRosa? Yes. Huff? That’s not clear. When 32 year olds fall off the cliff like that….well, it’s a big red flag. There’s a reason a Garko/Ishikawa platoon has a higher projection offensively than Huff.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Eh Im guessing the offensive gains will probably outweigh the defensive downgrades. But it definitely hurts, especially when pitching is our biggest strength.
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Mar 14, 2010 11:08 PM PDT reply actions
Nobody on our starting staff is a groundball pitcher – all of them are flyball pitchers, so OF defense is more important to our team. Given our strikeout-flyball pitching staff, I’d rather have the defensive downgrades show up in the IF, which they have, instead of the OF.
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In that case though wouldn’t is matter to play the the player witha longer track record in the OF with decent numbers over DeRosa?
And for that Matter if you have a pair of marginal bats with questionible glove work wouldn’t the limmitng the time they are both on the field be a better idea?
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Principally Schierholtz is replacing Winn, and DeRosa is replacing Lewis and Velez. “Principally” here because Winn did play some LF last year. But for the purpose of this analysis, one can compare Schierholtz with Winn, where the defensive dropoff is probably small; and DeRosa with Lewis and Velez, where again I suspect the defensive dropoff is small. Sandoval has more experience at third than last year, and may be more mobile if he is svelter; Renteria is supposedly healthier, so that he can actually throw the ball when he gets it; and Sanchez (plus Uribe) should improve on Burris and company. Shouldn’t the infield, save for Huff, be defensively better than last year? And as to Huff, we had Aurilia and Garko, not only Ishikawa, in that team UZR at first last year. Huff may well be worse than the 2009 collective, and I suppose as Molina ages, he will have worsened too. But I don’t understand why we should be thinking in terms of overall defensive downgrades, at least not to the degree that our pitchers will suffer as a result. Why then do I see people, not only on this skeptical site, pulling long faces about the Giants’ defense in 2010?
Your point about the OF is what I was going to say
The OP sold Derosa way short, IMO
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First – Rowand is older, and most likely worse. DeRosa is old, and the points about his sample size are fair. I do believe he’ll be an adequate replacement, though. It also remains to be seen what the dropoff from Winn to Schierholtz is – Winn put up a 17.4 UZR/150 last season, and he had a great feel for how to play RF in AT&T – it remains to be seen if Schierholtz can do the same, and even if Schierholtz is just as good as Winn, the whole “regression to the mean” concept means he’ll probably post a lower UZR.
Renteria is also older, he could easily be worse than he was last year. And don’t discount just how big the drop is at 1B – our 1B posted an 11.5 UZR last season, depending on how much Huff plays, we could be losing 15 runs there defensively. Uribe is older and probably worse, and what happens if he was to play some SS (or a lot of SS)? And finally, when a team posts a UZR as good as the Giants did last year, it’s more likely that it was helped by luck than hurt by it, so there’s a good chance our team as a whole simply regresses back to the mean a bit. Our defense will still be good, but you should expect a UZR drop compared to last year.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Rowand lost 10 pounds in this offseason. Don’t you think the extra mobility would more than outweigh the fact that he is one year older?
And questionable UZR stats aside, if you use the best stat measurer, your eyes, there is not much of a dropoff between Winn and Schierholtz, if any at all. Nate has a better arm, great range and everything I’ve ever seen from him in RF suggests he an above average fielder. Plus, you cite age as negatives for Rowand and DeRosa but neglect to account for the 10 year age difference between Nate and Randy.
We just traded who for who?!
It sure is! The only problem it too can be unreliable because of the brain they are connected to.
We just traded who for who?!
Are we also taking into account most of us watch on the TV, and you can’t really get much perspective at all from the TV on what kind of fielding ability an OF is displaying?
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Rowand has certainly been playing CF as if age is catching up to him.
Also.. There was reason to believe that Randy Winn wouldn’t be as good in 2009 as he was in 2008 because of his age. Because he didn’t drop off significantly doesn’t mean that all old players don’t lose ability with age. Just like seeing Bonds put up huge numbers when he was 40 doesn’t mean that all 40 year olds can do that too.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Mar 15, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Well let’s be honest…Bonds was roided out when he was 40
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Mar 15, 2010 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Technically, he was ’roided in.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s great, you, like howtheyscored and lincecuminyourface, would be wrong.
by Missing Barry on Mar 16, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
But you put them in you.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 16, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
TWSS
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by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 16, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
for injecting yourself into this debate!
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by natteringnabob on Mar 17, 2010 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Your muscles expand outwards.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Mar 16, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions
But they remain inside your skin.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 16, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Rowand lost 10 pounds in this offseason.
Best shape of his life! (I call BS on all preseason stories like this in all sports)
And questionable UZR stats aside, if you use the best stat measurer, your eyes, there is not much of a dropoff between Winn and Schierholtz, if any at all. Nate has a better arm, great range and everything I’ve ever seen from him in RF suggests he an above average fielder.
Multiple points here. First, even if UZR is questionable – the whole premise is based on how good our UZR was from last year. Second, arm strength doesn’t make a huge difference, and arm strength is only relevant if used well. Schierholtz arm has been a negative for his career – not because he doesn’t have a strong arm, but because more baserunners advance because of his arm than normal – you see the couple of times he throws someone out, but you don’t take notice of all the bases players take when he misses the cutoff, or has a slow delivery, or isn’t accurate, or throws it into the backstop, or any number of possibilities where players get extra bases. Next, even if Schierholtz has good range (something I’m not disputing) – does he take good angles? Is he really getting to as many balls as Winn just because he’s as fast? That matters.
Plus, you cite age as negatives for Rowand and DeRosa but neglect to account for the 10 year age difference between Nate and Randy.
Age is irrelevant to the past. Randy’s performance is in the past. If we were talking about what 2010 Winn was going to do for us compared to 2009 Winn, age would have to be a factor, but that’s not the case. Winn is gone. No need to factor in an age decline.
I’d also like to take the time to point out that UZR is, at it’s core, just a systematic way of observing what “your eyes” are telling you. People watch the game and record where the ball landed, and then from that information they perform calculations to see how many outs a player recorded compared to how many an average player would have recorded.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know if we should just give Ishi most of the at bats at home
He was very good at home and very bad on the road. We would suffer signifiucantly less defensively with him at first for home games. Also Huff would be better rested and maybe because of the rest, he may hit better, not making tired swings as much. Also, on home games he could be a good pinch hitter off the bench. Both guys could get more than 300 abs and I think would produce better combined numbers with Huff taking road games and pinch hitting in home games, and Ishi taking home games and pinch hitting on the road.
Huff from 2007-2009 has hit well in clutch abs. He thrives in clutch at bats. Thats what makes him a good pinch hitting option. Ishi hit .349 at home last year. I am sure he can not be any worse on the road this year than last. If he cannot hit well on the road, they have other guys who can pinch hit.
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I’m not sure I’d say he thrives in clutch opportunities.
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Splits are less telling of what a guy will do in the future than his overall career numbers. Ishikawa probably doesn’t have any sort of home advantage beyond what you normally expect (that is, players on average do better at home, and Ishikawa probably just does better in the same amount as everyone else). It’s extremely doubtful Huff is clutch. Also, players do better with regular PT, shuffling the two of them in and out like that might actually produce a worse overall performance than letting one guy get the majority of the PT.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Ishikawa and Winn, two players who contributed very little offensively and quite a bit defensively. In their stead are Huff and DeRosa
Should probably say
Ishikawa and Winn (in right with Lewis in Left), two players who contributed very little offensively and quite a bit defensively. In their stead are Huff and DeRosa (in left with Nate in right)
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Winn played RF consistently in 2009, while LF was shared between Lewis, Bowker, Velez, Torres, and Schierholtz, and I expect DeRosa to play LF consistently in 2010 with RF shared between Schierholtz, Torres, Velez, Lewis/Bowker (whichever makes the team) and Midseason Acquisition X. Considering this, I felt it prudent to mention players who are likely to play 100+ games and not be part of some four-player platoon, because you can’t really predict how much time each one will get, so it’s hard to determine the impact they’ll have.
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Midseason Acquisition X
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by natteringnabob on Mar 15, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Racer X’s cousin?
Matt Graham is an anagram for .... why don't you ask the scrabble expert!
by say hey nation on Mar 15, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
No. Malcolm X’s cousin.
The Giants offseason moves - "meh"
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by say hey nation on Mar 16, 2010 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions
And that right there is why I think the Giants’ decision to trade some defense for some offense is a good one:
Pro-tip: If you’re going to trade defense for offense, actually get some offense.
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http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/3/14/1373345/trading-defense-for-offense#32590740
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
That probably didn’t need to open in a new window.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
lol
Still in despair.
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by Zetsuboushita on Mar 15, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course, it’s arguable whether Huff, etc. provide reliable offense, but the overall point seems valid.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
Here’s what I’m saying:
UZR’s reliability < wOBA’s reliability
so
Player who typically posts +10 fielding runs < Player who typically posts +10 batting runs
I’m not saying UZR is crap, I’m not saying we should throw it out, and I’m not saying we should never listen to it; I just think it’s a good idea to go with the offensive production over the defensive production, ceteris paribus.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
this would be more impressive
if you dropped the Latin and showed the STDDEV of batting runs and UZR fielding runs.
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To get an equal amount of certainty, you need about 3 times more fielding data than batting data….
by Missing Barry on Mar 16, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
that's a sample size argument, correct
same as below…
I would call that a hypothesis. There is an “actual” data question though – what is the actual variance (or sqrt thereof) of RC vs. UZR?
I am not actually claiming it ISN’T more variable… I just have never actually seen anyone, you know, graph it.
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I was trying to be helpful, I don’t know the variance, but I gave you enough information to at least figure out their variance relative to each other!
by Missing Barry on Mar 16, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the important thing to realize is that defensive statistics are still catching up to offensive statistics, and doing so at an incredible rate. The 1990s (and 1980’s, and even the late 1970’s for the real ahead of the curve baseball nerds) were all about developing innovative hitting statistics. The late 90’s and 2000s were more skewed toward pitching (the era of Voros McCracken, Tom Tango, and the like). Now with field f/x data starting to become available and sabermetricians everywhere analyzing this data in every conceivable way, fielding statistics will be the new frontier of the 2010s, and by the end of the decade I’d be very surprised if they hadn’t caught up to the rest of the baseball numbers game entirely. Probably sooner.
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UZR is still the best defensive evaluation publicly available. That said, I’ve heard enough comments from front office types disparaging it and intimating that they have better, proprietary data that I don’t hold it as gospel. It’s just the best we, as fans, have.
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You mean like last winter, when the Giants front office complained that their proprietary data showed Renteria was still a fantastic defensive shortstop and the press should stop knocking him?
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(I seem to remember the Giants saying that Edgar had an .800-something OPS in the 2nd half of 2008. Therefore, he wasn’t cooked.)
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Yep. They’re honestly some of the worst statistical cherry pickers I’ve ever seen. Stats are just there to confirm what they believe – if someone has a good 2nd half, it’s proof they’re talented, if they have a bad second half, they’re obviously going to bounce back. It’s just ridiculous how poor our management’s thought process is.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I can’t kill them too much for the signing, though. The Giants had nothing in their system at SS — like zero depth near the majors. I liked the deal at the time, but it’s looking bad these days.
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I can’t kill them too much for the signing, though
That’s exactly the thing – most of the signings, in a vacuum, don’t look that bad. Even the ones like DeRosa when we had Lewis already weren’t that terrible. Collectively it’s a group of overpaid shitheads that barely make us better and cost us a fortunte, though, and prevent us from contending.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I can. $9 million a year for Renteria at his age is just questionable regardless of what’s out there.
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 15, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, no, the Giants are a terrible example. But Theo Epstein basically said he didn’t pay any attention to UZR either. For vastly different reasons, I presume.
Also, amazingly, UZR was kind to Renteria last year, rating him as almost exactly average.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
What evidence do you have that he wasn't almost exactly average?
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Indeed. I was surprised by his UZR but maybe that came from analysis of his defense. No reason sabremetric nerds aren’t prone to that too.
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 15, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, it’s not like Epstein is going to come out and say Ellsbury is a bad defensive outfielder. Also, keep in mind that they moved him to LF for Cameron. Actions do speak louder than words.
I presume Tom Tippett is their head analyst; his work is on par with MGL’s. I also assume their data source is BIS, meaning their data source is the same. I can’t see how their numbers differ that much from what we’ve got.
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Yeah, obviously within that context of course Theo said what he did. The funny thing to me is he knows what Ellsbury’s UZR was. If he knows, he probably IS paying attention.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree with the idea that fluctuations in UZR show it is unreliable. It is definitely not perfect, but I see no reason defense shouldn’t fluctate from year to year. Players can end up getting a disproportionate number of tough defensive plays one year, just as they can end up facing unusually good pitchers or have some lucky base hits. A player can have a slight injury issue that limits their range a bit one year compared to another. Or a player can just have some defensive problems just like players occasionally run into stretches where they struggle offensively. So fluctuation in UZR doesn’t surprise me, and I don’t think it should make us disregard the value of runs prevented.
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 15, 2010 12:29 PM PDT reply actions
There is measurement error in UZR which is a problem something like offensive statistics doesn’t have, but it’s not a legitimate argument against UZR’s worth – for the most part, it just means you need bigger sample size to estimate true talent levels at a given accuracy.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d have no problem with the fluctuation if I could explain it. But there aren’t things like BABIP for defensive metrics that tell me if a player is just having a fluky season or stretch and should be expected to bounce back or is actually bad. Sanchez has put up ridiculous variation in his UZR over consecutive seasons, and there’s really no explanation for that. Sure, maybe he got a bunch of tough hops in one year and a bunch of easy grounders in another, or maybe everything was hit right to him in ‘05 and everything was just out of his reach in ’08. But those are maybes, and I don’t like to evaluate a player based on maybes. The Giants’ philosophy of “maybe last year was a fluke” seems to run along similar lines, but it’s certainly gotten quite a lot of heat here.
I don’t discount UZR entirely; I think it’s a good metric, and definitely the best defensive stat we have, and we should absolutely use it. I just think that when you have to choose between adding 10 runs offensively or adding 10 runs defensively, you go with the offense, simply because you have more reliable stats that indicate Player X can continue to contribute on that side of the ball.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
I’d have no problem with the fluctuation if I could explain it.
Sample size. You’re welcome, now it’s explained. :)
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
That doesn’t really help. If each year has SSS issues because it’s only one year, then you have to take the last several to properly evaluate a player. And considering how much can change over the course of several years, you could very well be using irrelevant or misleading data because players aren’t the same now as they were three or four or five or six years ago.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
If each year has SSS issues because it’s only one year, then you have to take the last several to properly evaluate a player. And considering how much can change over the course of several years, you could very well be using irrelevant or misleading data because players aren’t the same now as they were three or four or five or six years ago.
This is all completely true. Applying an aging factor and regressing to the mean helps some, but it doesn’t completely negate all this stuff.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
It also depends on the position. Let’s say that it takes 1,400 BIP to really begin to get an understanding of an individual’s fielding talent.
Here’s the average BIP hit to the positions in 2009 (rounded), followed by the years it takes to get to the target BIP:
1B: 255, 5 years
2B: 455, 3 years
3B: 385, 4 years
SS: 490, 3 years
LF: 345, 4 years
CF: 440, 3 years
RF: 355, 4 years
So we’re going to get a better handle of fielding talent at 3 years for positions up the middle, but 4years for the corners…and 5 for first basemen. And that’s the AVERAGE distribution of balls in play. Obviously, different teams will have different distributions.
The purpose of UZR (and other fielding metrics) is to give the defensive value of a player; not his talent. We can’t ask a metric to do something it wasn’t designed to do.
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The purpose of UZR (and other fielding metrics) is to give the defensive value of a player; not his talent. We can’t ask a metric to do something it wasn’t designed to do.
Hmmm…I’ve always looked at it the exact opposite way, it doesn’t seem a very good measure of their value to me, mostly due to measurement error (at least as far as my understanding goes), whereas with a larger sample you can start to get an idea of a guys talent level. I have thought about it and wish I could see the data at a much more “raw” level to get a better feel for exactly where all the variation comes from, without that, I have to admit a limited understanding of exactly what the fluctuations mean and come about.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Also
When the swings are that wild from year to year, you have no idea what you’re going to get from a guy defensively on any given year when you sign a guy.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Well, it depends on the swing. If a player has erratic positive results (Utley) then you can expect he will provide good defense, even if you can’t predict the exact number. A player who has some positive years and some negative years presents a problem, but so does an offensive player who has a really bad year following a good year (Huff). I think using UZR as part of a player’s value is a better move than not using it. But yes, if you have +10 offense versus +10 defense, I might sign the +10 offense as more reliable. Also, puts more butts in seats.
Eagerly anticipating adding to my Giants family.
by giantsfansince1981 on Mar 15, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure that the swings in UZR are really telling you what value he actually provided you – that is, a -5 UZR for a guy doesn’t necessarily mean he gave you -5 defense that year, if he’s a career +5 defense it seems to me you probably got +5 defense that year and UZR just experienced measurement/sample error.
by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think so. If a guy has a career average of +5 UZR every year, but posts a 5 year one year, that’s not within the +/ 5 margin for error that UZR is supposed to have. And the big problem is that you don’t know if that -5 year is a result of injury (and thus reversible), luck (and thus reversible), in part as a result of measurement/sample error (and thus reversible), or age-related decline (and thus not reversible).
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
So I guess you can create strikethroughs by leading with a "" and ending with a “-”-?
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
Yes SBN autoformatting is annoying. It also depends on position and innings and opportunities, the +/- 5 is just a guideline (and I think it’s more based on variance of the observations but doesn’t necessarily do a good job accounting for measurement error), I tend to think it has a wider range than that personally….
by Missing Barry on Mar 16, 2010 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
poor defense sucks.
If Huff’s D is as bad as advertised, give me Travis or give me Bowker.
Yeah, that's comical.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I agree with your subject line
That’s as far as I got
RED SIX!!!
Bah =(
He would have provided offense and defense. Sabean whiffed.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 16, 2010 9:39 AM PDT reply actions

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