Posey
by lexluth7 on Mar 13, 2010 2:32 PM PST
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PrintIf I'm Sabean/Bochy, Posey is on my opening day roster. I'd platoon him at first with Huff. He'd also get some AB's in left field and I'd catch him once or twice a week. The guy is too good a hitter to go to Fresno.
He's also too good a hitter, too good good an athlete and not the right body type to stay at catcher. Why (1) limit him to 130 games a year - 10 to 20 of which his bat drags cause he's catching; (2) risk all the injuries etc that come from catching; (3) shorten his career by 3 to 5 years by keeping him behind the plate?
He should end up at either second, third or left - depending on need. Finally, I may have dreamt this - but isn't there another young catcher in the system that the Giants are high on???
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Wrong wrong wrong wrong
Wrong wrong wrong wrong
You’re wrong. You’re wrong. You’re wronnnnnnnng.
Snark aside, that is a terrible idea.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
When I saw the title of this thread I said to myself, “oh, boy.”
Well, you lived up to expectations.
Triples Alley: Analysis of the San Francisco Giants, Baseball, and Sabermetrics.
If I’m Sabean/Bochy
Are you sure you aren’t?
My adopted son is RHP Steve Edlefsen, currently above Gerald Posey on the catching depth chart.
Didn’t he once play all nine positions in a game in college? Why not do this with him every day? He’ll never get tired that way. He’ll be like a secret weapon. The other team will never know where he is. They’ll try to hit the ball to weak defenders like Huff, Renteria, or Velez, but uh uh, there’s Buster to make the game saving defensive play. Damn, I’m smart!
Dumped Edgar Renteria and adopted Buster Posey. Biggest upgrade since George Jefferson moved up to a deluxe apartment on the east side!
by rxmeister on Mar 13, 2010 3:38 PM PST via mobile reply actions
True story
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/09: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
by Useful_Idiot on Mar 13, 2010 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
versatility
Why limit this excellent “scramble defense” strategy to Posey? Just rotate everyone around, like in volleyball.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
FLOATING REALIGNMENT!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Mar 14, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you keep wanting to put Posey in LF? Do you know how valuable a catcher that can hit is? REALLY FUCKING VALUABLE.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Johnny Roseboro
Tom Haller
Mike Soscia
Mike Piazza
Paul LoDuca
Russel Martin (who can suck it)
Nah…not a big deal to have a good hitting catcher.
Your bench player is our #5 hitter!!!
You know what
Fuck the Dodgers
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
isn’t there another young catcher in the system that the Giants are high on???
The only person who comes to mind is Tommy Joseph and:
a) He’s at least 2-3 years away
b) He could more easily switch to 1B because he has serious power (unlike Posey)
c) Who says he’s ever going to be a major leaguer?
d) If he does, he’s a better option to move from C anyways because Posey is a better defender.
Also, do any of these people realize that Posey is quite good at throwing out basestealers?
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
POZEY WILL HAVE 12-15 PASSED BaLLZ A GAMe!
My adopted son is RHP Steve Edlefsen, currently above Gerald Posey on the catching depth chart.
Jax
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
JAX!
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Mar 13, 2010 8:33 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe he's talking about Monell or Sanchez?
If he is-he should realize that Monell has the ceiling of a back up and Sanchez is probably 4 years away
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Who cares about throwing out basestealers?
Certainly not a team giving Molina an incentive contract!
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
You forget:
1) Posey has no major league experience, and he won’t get to catch major league pitching till he has experience catching major league pitching.
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
#2 in Fanshots
look, guys
I know what the thought process is here. He knows that Tub of Molina is going to get the bulk of starts at C this year and he wants Posey’s bat and slick defense in the lineup every day as a super Util player. I like this idea, if only because the rest of the team’s positional players, Sandoval aside, are fairly shitty.
Next year he can take all the C starts,but for now get him some Major League experience so Bork can’t say he doesn’t have any. Right now he is our best 1B, our best C and our best LF. We should use him at at least one of those positions regularly.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
The problem is that Bork won’t play him at C until he has plenty of catching experience. And that simply will not happen if he’s in the majors this year under this management.
My adopted son is RHP Steve Edlefsen, currently above Gerald Posey on the catching depth chart.
Boom!
This is the key. If Posey is every going to be the Giants catcher, he has to prove to Bork that he (Buster) can catch. If he’s a utility player full-time this season, then there’s little chance he ever catches for Bruce Bochy.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Who cares?
I don’t necessarily want him to play catcher for Bochy, I want him to PLAY for Bochy this year, period. Positional flexibility is the best way to ensure that happens.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
His bat is valuable at Catcher but as a 1st baseman/LF his bat is average. Why put him at a position where his offensive value goes down.
01.19.2010
r.i.p. buster posey
umm
because he is a better hitter than our current 1B.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
He’s also a better hitter than our current C. And there’s a pretty good chance our current 1B is a better hitter than our current C.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
I know that and you know that
But Bork doesn’t.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Sadly, even if our current C’s line is .211/.198/.200 (or something like, maybe something like this cannot happened but I pulled three lines out of my head at random) with a ton of wild pitches allowed. He still would play every day and not even a chance for Posey to start any games.
The Giants offseason moves - "meh"
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum, who could do whatever he wants to do.
Well, the only way that’s happening is if he somehow ends up in San Jose. Can’t say I’d like that.
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions
But why use him at the positions that are the easiest to fill?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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Also the positions where his great arm would be most wasted.
Proud member of The Gentlemen of Leisure.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 13, 2010 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
I guess because the Giants don’t like to easily fill easily fillable positions… If the Giants aren’t going to fill those positions with players that are clearly better than Posey, let him get the playing time in the majors there, and look to fill those positions later.
That said, I’d rather he start out in Fresno and refine his game calling, if it truly needs work. And I’d rather the Giants not use Posey as an excuse not to fill a position of need with a better player. “Well, we can by pass on Carl Crawford because Posey’s now our starting left fielder, so Crawford wouldn’t have anywhere to play anyway!”
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
My only hope is that Sabean
1) finally helped Dorothy defeat the Wicked Witch of the West
2) the Wizard of Oz gave him a brain
3) he’s only sending Posey down for two months
4) then tells Bochy to start Posey every day
5) starts trying to deal Molina to someone desperate for a catcher.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
My secret goal
is for #5 to happen and the Giants to send Bengie to the Dodgers while SUCK IT’s groin recovers and Agent Ned is activated and we get James Loney or someone good.
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Heres what I know
Catchers wear out. There is ONE catcher that I can think of that is a truly great hitter. Mauer. 6’5 and 235. Posey does not have a catcher’s build. He will wear down. Hell he wore down last year in a much shorter season. He got a concussion getting hammered at home plate. Broken fingers. Collisions etc.
Yes I know that a great hitting catcher is VERY valuable. I also know that there is a reason that there are so few great hitting catchers.
I don’t want him to stay behind the plate. I want him getting 150 starts and 600 AB’s a year. That will NEVER happen if he’s a catcher. Period.
Mauer doesn’t have a catcher’s build either.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
How about we wait a couple of years to let him show whether he’s a “truly great hitter” or not, then resume this discussion?
Some questions for discussion.
You are right that ’m jumping the gun on calling him a “great hitter.” But that is the projection. Here are some questions and thoughts:
1. Fresno or SF? That is the no. 1 question in my book. And he sure as hell is not going to stay up to get 150 AB’s as a back-up catcher.
2. Career wise and assuming he is as advertised as a hitter, why do we want to limit his ab’s. Along those lines, how many great hitters that played catcher can you think of over the last 30 years: Bench, Mauer, Piazza. I’m not taling about “great hitting catchers”. That is a different category cause catchers don’t hit like the other 7 positions.
3. Molina. I know its popular to rag on him for what he can’t do (he can’t run, he can’t take pitches and he’s not a clean-up hitter) but he’s probably been the second best hitting catcher in the NL the last two years. (McCann is first). I’m glad he’s back. He’ll be hitting 6th or 7th – where he belongs. And if he gives us the production he has the last two years, those will be excellent numbers – for both a catcher and a 6-7 hole hitter. The problem he had was not of his making. Benjie isn’t a clean-up hitter. But then again, the Giants didn’t have a clean-up hitter the last couple years. I’m not sure they do this year either but I digress.
4. How many gifted athletes do you see behind the plate. The Astros got Biggio out from the dish. And he may end up in the HOF because of it.
5. Does it make sense to delay Posey’s ascension to the Majors so he can learn to call a game? It might if the Giants were (1) not expecting to contend this year and (2) a strong hitting team. But they are expected to contend and they obviously are not a good, much less great, hitting team.
6.. Mauer is a freak. Unfair to compare anyone to him. Nonetheless, I bet he’s not catching in a few years. Were it not for Morneau, they already might have moved him to first base – if he can play it. Piazza stayed behind the plate cause he couldn’t play anywhere else. Course he wasn’t much of a catcher either.
Assuming he is as advertised as a defensive player, why would we want to limit his defensive opportunities? it’s important to think of the whole player, I think, and not just one piece, no matter how important, or perhaps better said, how notable, that one piece is. This gets us to a Runs Prevented = Runs Scored conversation.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Also, honestly I wish people wouldn’t keep dragging Biggio into this conversation. Biggio was not a good catcher. Dale Murphy was a terrible catcher. These guys weren’t moved to improve their bats, they were moved to improve their team’s catching.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Biggio was also kind of a freak. Using him as a comparison for young catchers is like using Nolan Ryan as a comparison for young pitchers. It doesn’t work.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
and anyway
Biggio was 27 and had spent 2 1/2 years as a Major League catcher before the Astros moved him. His situation was very different from Posey’s now.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Molina has not been the second best hitting catcher in the NL the last two years.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Along these lines
It’s a decent bet that Huff out-hits Molina this year.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
It’s 50/50 on whether or not Zito out-hits Molina this year.
by paboperfecto on Mar 13, 2010 8:51 PM PST up reply actions
/admires understatement
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
If Mauer moves to another position in two years, he will have been a full-time catcher for seven seasons and change. Why not get the max value out of Posey while he’s young, then think about moving him down the road?
And Posey has a total of 151 plate appearances above A-ball. He has plenty to learn.
Molina. I know its popular to rag on him for what he can’t do
which would be everything other than hitting for modest power.
Mark DeRosa knows that it's hard to sound intelligent with a Jersey accent.
Eating?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Blocking talented prospects?
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
he can displace a large amount of water when submerged.
Mark DeRosa knows that it's hard to sound intelligent with a Jersey accent.
ok… first of all, molina’s not even close to the second best hitting catcher in the nl. he’s not even the best hitting molina! montero’s probably better as well. going forward, i’d probably take soto and even ianetta over him this year, and that’s before you factor in defense (in which he’s pretty terrible)
Proud parent of the new dominant pitching sensation out of San Diego State University.
but he’s probably been the second best hitting catcher in the NL the last two years. (McCann is first).
No.
In terms of wOBA among NL catchers with at least 400 PA, Molina was 5th of of 7 (behind McCann, Montero, Yadier Molina, and Baker) in 2009, and 7th out of 9 (after Iannetta, McCann, Soto, Doumit, Martin, and Snyder) in 2008. He is not a good hitter, even for a catcher.
Also.
HIS NAME IS BENGIE. IT NOT BENJIE. HE HAS BEEN A GIANT FOR THREE YEARS. WHAT IS WITH ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO CAN’T FIGURE OUT IT’S NOT SPELLED BENJIE!?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
PoseyLincecum does not have acatcher’spitcher’s build. He will wear down.
"Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time."
What does Lincecum have to do with this?
C’mon. Its not a question of whether Posey can play or not, its where.
Agreed, he should just be our DH instead.
Plus bat, no pesky fielding.
by MoreroidsforZito on Mar 13, 2010 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
good idea
store him in Fresno and bring him up every June for interleague road trips. Then when he’s out of options, he can learn to play catcher. Win/win!
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
People say Timmy doesn’t have the right build and that he’ll wear down. You feel the same way about Posey. Let him prove that he can’t handle the catcher, and then worry about where he plays
If the kid wants to catch, let him, especially if he’ll be an asset at that position defensively. Personally, I’m sick of the lazy way Molina blocks balls in the dirt and can’t catch up to high fastballs. I want to see what the Posey can do behind the dish and at the plate – as a catcher.
"Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time."
I want to see what the Posey can do behind the dish and at the plate – as a catcher.
It doesn’t matter what you’d like, the Giants aren’t gonna let you on the field to play catcher.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Crap
I thought I’d punched my ticked to the show.
I’ll have to think of something else…
"Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time."
Please describe the ideal catchers body.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Mar 13, 2010 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Take Bengie, divide by 2.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
A 650 lb. catcher??
The Giants offseason moves - "meh"
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum, who could do whatever he wants to do.
Oh wait never mind, divide.
The Giants offseason moves - "meh"
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum, who could do whatever he wants to do.
Posey is not a great hitter unless he’s a catcher, and he produces on the defensive side of the ball when he’s behind the dish.
Those benefits far outweigh the risks.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
The problem with this theory
Posey’s bat at Catcher=Special
Posey’s bat at 1B/LF= Average
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Not that I agree with Posey changing positions ( I think he should be the starting catcher this year), Posey’s bat = 2nd best on the Giants to Sandoval this season.
The San Francisco Giants must win at least one World Series before I die.
by vinScullySucks on Mar 13, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with this
but I’d rather see him as a MVP type catcher rather than a solid regular type 1B
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
But we’re not likely to make the playoffs with or without Posey, so why waste a year of team control on him to not make the playoffs either way?
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Posey bat at LF/IB
I’m not sure why you think he’d be “average”. He is supposed to be a terrific hitter. Period. But then again – “average” is a big jump up at either first of left for the Giants. They have been putrid at first since Snow’s heyday and even worse in left since Bonds.
1B/LF vs C
At C there is a chance he could be Joe Mauer (the best hitting catcher)
At 1B there is no chance he is Albert Pujols (the best hitting 1B)
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Actually I'm hoping for second base.
And I’ll wager folks right now that within a couple years he’ll be moved.
I’ll end with something we can agree on: lets hope the guy is as advertised wherever he plays. Lord knows the Giants need it. I’ll be happy to be wrong if he is the next great catcher.
Fair enough
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Also-the difference is power
Posey is only projected to hit ~15 HR’s (or so) where as at 1B or LF he needs to hit about 25-30. At corner positions power is more important than average and Posey is projected more as a hitter for average
Adopted Giant: Mike Krukow.
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I’m not sure why you think he’d be "average". He is supposed to be a terrific hitter. Period.
Nah, not really. In his 151 PA’s at Fresno last year, he hit .321/.391/.511. Sure, seems impressive. The MLE on that, though, is .274/.331/.430. Pretty average. If you read up his scouting report in prospect books, they really aren’t as high on his hitting as you seem to think – they’re high on his offense as a C, just like his MLE is a great line for a prospect who plays C – but for other positions…..not so much.
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
(Also, CHONE projection on him is .265/.341/.402 – still average. Even Bill James’ projection, which generally is hugely optimistic for prospects (or at least seems that way), projects .270/.331/.405 – solid for a C, not so much anywhere else)
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
His future is at catcher. He should learn that position, and as soon as he’s ready he should be in SF, playing that position.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 13, 2010 5:22 PM PST reply actions
Exactly. But apparently this is too hard for Sabe-bork to understand.
My adopted son is RHP Steve Edlefsen, currently above Gerald Posey on the catching depth chart.
I don’t think Posey should change positions. But I don’t see how going to AAA makes him a better catcher. If the concern is his ability to catch Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez and Wilson’s stuff, I don’t see how he learns this in Fresno. If it’s about developing a relationship with the Giants staff, he needs to catch the Giants staff. I think we all agree Posey will outhit Molina this year.
The Giants have already sacrificed defense for some questionable improvements in offense, why not one more? (though I’m not convinced Posey is a defensive downgrade when blocking pitches and throwing out runners is considered). I just have this feeling if he spends most of the season in AAA we are going to be dealing with these “is he ready to catch the staff” questions again next season.
The San Francisco Giants must win at least one World Series before I die.
Good points Scully
The Giants obviously felt Posey was not ready to catch everyday this year. Right or wrong they are locked on that position. I feel that a year in Fresno is a complete waste. Perhaps if he goes down he gets called up right around the time of the interleague games and then sticks. Also, if the Giants are not in it by the deadline, Molina will be traded and Posey will finish the year.
Molina is a poor ball blocker. He doesn’t move well enough. From what I’ve heard Posey has the better arm., although that doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll be better at throwing out basestealers. Moina was decent, I think, on that score last year.
It comes down to calling a game. I guess I have a very hard time leaving a guy with his talent in the minors for that reason.
I have no problem sending him to AAA. Let’s consider that he’s only spent one year in the minors, so perhaps he should get some more unimportant ABs so he can prove his .327/.421/.538 is legit. I have absolutely every reason to think that it is, and just about zero reasons to think that it isn’t, but it wouldn’t hurt to continue showing the FO that he is truly ML ready – considering the Garko debacle, I don’t think they know what SSS means, but he has only had 130 at-bats above High-A. Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing him tear up Fresno for another year.
You have to also consider that he just started calling games on his own a year ago or so. By all accounts (including Mr. Randy Johnson, who knows a little something about pitching, and called Posey a great catcher) he is a very quick learner, so his game-calling skills should be considered slightly raw but rapidly improving. More time in Fresno, with pitchers whose mentality is more that of an ML-type hurler, could improve his game-calling and prevent him from having to learn that in a high-pressure situation.
But most importantly are the regular ABs. If he starts the year in SF, he’s the backup catcher. He won’t get regular playing time, and he won’t get regular starts at catcher. More so than anything else, this is the reason why he should be in Fresno. Were Molina still not on the team, he should absolutely be the starting, Opening Day catcher, but with the Rotundity probably starting at least 100+ games this year, there’s no way Posey gets enough playing time to justify a year in SF. Better that he work on anything he still has to (not much) in Fresno while getting the opportunity to play every day, and bring him up full-time in 2011.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
I feel that a year in Fresno is a complete waste.
Why? He’s only had 151 PA’s in his career at AAA and 17 at MLB – you don’t think he can improve by facing that level of competition some more? We still get 6 years of team control over him at the MLB level if we leave him in Fresno this year, and actually can play him up at the MLB level a bit this year and still get 6 more years of team control over him after it……so why is it a waste?
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Some empirical data
Let me try to explain this better using some data. First, understand that my thought for a move is more of a long term issue than anything else.
First, as a catcher you don’t play more than 140 games. In fact, few play that. Last year there were only 9 NL catchers that played in 100 games. Russell Martin led with 143.
Second, body type. Those nine catchers are: Martin 5’10 230. Benji 5’11 225 (that’s what he’s listed at. The last time he saw 225 was when he was with Anaheim. He had to be closer to 250) McCann 6’3 230. Yadier Molina 5’11 230. Kendall (the exception whom I’ll discuss later) 6’0 190. Montero 5’11 190. Baker 6’1 230. Soto 6’1 220 and Ruiz 5’10 215.
Third – Kendall. A great example in my opinion of what happens to catchers. Kendall was, at one time a terrific hitter. No power, but a very high average guy. Hit over .325 twice. His first 11 years he hit for an average of .302. The last three years – .241. He is 35.
Fourth – overall hitting production. Catchers suffer from their defensive load and just the rigors of the position. Here are the nine’s numbers:
Martin .250 7 and 53 (way down from the previous two years)
Benji .265 20 and 80
McCann .281 21 94
Yadier .293 6 54
Kendall
Kendall lost his batting ability because of a horrific wrist injury.
Bengie is old and has never been a great hitter.
McCann put up a 120 OPS+ last year, he is still a very good hitter.
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"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
“McCann put up a 120 OPS+ last year, he is still a very good hitter.”
That’s because he’s fat. Catchers are supposed to be fat. Skinny catchers cheat the game.
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by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 13, 2010 9:13 PM PST up reply actions
so let him catch for a few years then move him off if need be. There’s really no reason to squash his catching career before it even starts.
Mark DeRosa knows that it's hard to sound intelligent with a Jersey accent.
In invoking Kendall's first 11 years
You’re assuming Posey’s going to be here after he hits free agency.
/awaits lightning strike from mods
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
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Third – Kendall. A great example in my opinion of what happens to catchers. Kendall was, at one time a terrific hitter. No power, but a very high average guy. Hit over .325 twice. His first 11 years he hit for an average of .302. The last three years – .241. He is 35.
This is exactly why Posey should play C. That kind of production is extremely valuable out of a C. Kendall, who seems like the most comparable to Posey out of that group, got 11 good years in. We have Posey under team control for 6, and that still gives us 4+ years into his free agency to get great production out of him. Why move him now when we can get immense amounts of value from Posey at C? What happens 8, 10, 12 years from now isn’t a concern for our present decisionmaking.
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Totally agree. Look, play him at first or third or whatever on occasion to keep his bat in the lineup if it’s truly as valuable as we all believe it’s going to be. But don’t look to move him out of the catcher’s position now for the sake of what his career will look like when he’s 33.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Especially considering there’s a pretty damned good chance he won’t be a Giant in 10 years.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
Posey’s lower half sure looks like a catcher to me.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Mar 13, 2010 8:40 PM PST reply actions
A big missing piece from your thought process is how much worse of a hitter Bengie Molina is than even the scrubs we’re likely to install at first base.
Mark DeRosa knows that it's hard to sound intelligent with a Jersey accent.
Something tells me lexluth loves TEH RIBEYEZ!!!
My adopted son is RHP Steve Edlefsen, currently above Gerald Posey on the catching depth chart.
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This makes me laugh and nod my head.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Mar 13, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
When we look at Posey's 150 minor league games behind the plate.
We must realize that this is not just from coming out of high school, but playing for a major college team, which has to be at least at some level equal to or maybe better than low A. Some guys may be worse than low A, but some guys in college are already better than low A.
Baseball Reference has him at 125… all of 35 above A-ball.
It really is not unreasonable for the Giants to want to observe him at AAA for a while. Wherever he is, he should be catching as a regular – bringing him up to not catch is crazy to me.
I personally hope he comes up in the second half of the season, takes over as the everyday catcher and stays there for a good long while.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Mar 13, 2010 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
Nah.
Adopted Giant: Clayton Tanner
by walkoff baltimore chop on Mar 13, 2010 10:36 PM PST reply actions
First objection: Arbitration Clock.
We are talking about a player that is supposed to be very good. After the debacle of how little playing time he was given while riding Big Head’s bench the last couple months of ’09 carrying him as a utility/platoon guy from the start of the reason is dumb. In essence the team is trading his 5th year for 3 months Uribe/DeRosa/Aurillia light at the beginning of the ’10 season. That is trade so ugly I am not sure there are beer goggles strong enough to make it appealing.
Second objection: Others have touched on riding Big Head’s bench if you are not over 30 and signed as a free agent and their point is valid. Big Head will view him as the next Feliz or Fred Lewis at the slightest opportunity. I have seen no precedent in his run as a Giants manager to counter that.
I like your point about not wearing him down by having him catch 140+ games but that is way down the road. Unfortunately Big Head’s love to able to Xerox his lineup cards several days in advance so he will, if ever allowed to be a starter in Big Heads eyes, be catching 140+ games if Bochey is still here then. Of course this is down teh road because short of catastrophic injury Molina will the starting catcher for at least 80% of the games he on the Giants 25 man.
So that means a back up Cather/back up first baseman/back up whatever else will be playing a maximum of 4 games a week in the earliest part of the season so now we are back to arbitration clock and tradeing his 5th season for a Uribe/DeRosa/Aurlia clone for the first2-4 months of ’09. No thanks.
Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at - 25%
The fish let their young guys play.
Ok maybe they had no older more expensive options, but they would struggle and April and May, and then adapt to the majors and many of their young guys come though and develop in the majors, and despite a very low, often the lowest payrolled team they usually compete. There is something to say about not giving a prospect enough minor league exposure to work out the kinks, but their is also something about keeping guys in the minors too long, and not letting them adapt to the major league pace at a young enough age.
But Fish actauly put their young guys on the diamond almost day in day out. The hgiher they reguard the farm graduate the less they rideing the pine. Unfortunelty we can not legitamtley make the same claim with the Botchy/Sabean Giants.
If we could have reseaonible expection of the guy playing every day I would deffinaltey reconsider my stance. However we are left with the choice of part time work for him now and not having controll of his 5th year or playing about half the ’10 season in the minors and controling that 5th season ( either in Orange in BLack or for tradeing). To me, on a 81-84 win team there is no choice here, he has to go down.
Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at - 25%
Marlins don’t really have a choice.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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Xerox lineup cards?
I thought the giants were one of the teams with the most different lineups last year. Am I wrong about that?
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
BB-REF says:
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Mar 14, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Well that’s a great one two punch at the top of the lineup.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
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I guess Winn and Scott did migrate a healthy ammount… but did Big head realy view any one besides Scott, Renteria, Molina and Renteria as legit starters? Given the rest of the guys were probably seen as connon fodder and place holders tell some one with more veteran grit could be had moveing them arround does not count that much.
Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at - 25%
New Plan.
If Posey’s bat is worth a lot more as a catcher, than so is Sandoval’s. If we want to get the most value from each of their bats, they each can catch about half the games and play the field the rest of the games. Perhaps we could, carry a backup catcher or not. Each would wear down at a much slower pace, and they could each be assigned to specific pitchers, with the 5th pitcher assignment rotating. This would obviate the need for Mr. Molina next year. Who has a better catcher’s body, Posey, or Sandoval? Does it really matter?
I believe this is the Roger ( if it was not Roger please forgive me) plan from a couple off seasons back: And I like it.
Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at - 25%
it was a good plan last year
when Sandoval would probably been the first all-star catcher from this team since…
wait, go ahead and google giants all-star catcher
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Roger and I both have preached this
Roger touted a 1B/C platoon and I touted a 3B/C platoon.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
I’ve been on board with that idea for a while, too.
by Missing Barry on Mar 14, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, the Goofger strategem raises it’s beautiful head once again!
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This is a neat discussion, but..
…the real problem is that those douchebags went and paid Bengie $6M. That effectively obliterated the chance that he will get any real time at C this year before or after July 1 and forces them to get creative in looking for ways to get him playing time. I hate it when Bork and Sabes get creative.
You said it
Most of these comments imply that there is some logical process to anything, or that somehow compounded failures will be offset by another failure.
The Giants could have signed a real catcher to a two year contract, with that hypothetical guy taking most of the starts this year, or at least the first part of the year if Posey hits the ground running, and taking a back seat next year (if Posey doesn’t find his swing until late in this season). If Posey is hit by a bus or somehow really can’t throw the ball back to the mound or hit a slider, that means the team would have a major league catcher this year and next year while the team hunts for someone else, waits for Williams or someone in A ball, whatever.
That hypothetical catcher could have been named Gregg Zaun ($4.25 M over 2 years) or Kendall ($6M or so for two years). Yorvit signed for $1.xM with a mutual option for next year at $3.5M. Or John Buck, who signed with Toronto after the Royals cut him loose for nothing, who would’ve been an upgrade over Whiteside at the very least.
Instead they signed Molina to a deal with $1.5M in incentives for games played for next year. Even without the incentives, the $4.5 M base exceeds the total amount of any of those two year deals that were supposedly such a terrible idea during the winter.
And, moving Posey elsewhere, in addition to wasting the two best catching prospects in who knows how long for this franchise into actual catchers, will demonstrate that the other “upgrades” made with free agent signings at other positions weren’t really upgrades at all. Paying Huff, for instance, $3M to sit on the bench or watch balls land in front of him in LF would be a lot bigger waste of money than the second year of a catcher’s contract.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Now that they've signed who've they've signed
I’m more concerned about having the starters be the ones who give the best possible chance of winning. If that means Molina or Huff become expensive backups or platoon players, so be it.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
paying starters and backups the same=
VERSATILITY DOWN THE STRETCH NERDS
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. The real problem here is not Posey’s deficiencies, because there aren’t many, but Molina blocking him from playing every day.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
Today's Chron
Posey’s bat making roster decision hard
Posey is 2nd on the club in ribeyes, so maybe that’s getting Bochy’s attention.
I’m coming around on the idea of Posey being on the big team, but only if Bochy agrees to start him at C at least two games a week and somewhere else another two games per week.
Not have to carry Whiteside would allow them to keep Lewis and Bowker and make the team stronger overall. If I’m Sabean, I’ll snatch Posey away and send him back to Fresno if Bochy refuses to play him.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
I admit, I too am warming to the idea of Posey playing 4-5 games a week at catcher and first base in the majors, although the arb clock thing is still something I’m not pleased about.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Can he play 4-5 games a week at catcher and second base? I’m less confident in Uribe’s ability to repeat his ridiculously unforeseen year than Huff’s ability to regain form, and Sanchez’ injury gives a nice little window for Posey.
Possible uses for your Steven Johnson: 5th starter, long reliever, batboy, go-fer, food taster. Just keep him on the roster!
I'd rather have Derosa at 2B
It opens up a spot in LF for Bowker.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
the Goofus plan, Part II
Mark DeRosa knows that it's hard to sound intelligent with a Jersey accent.
he might just make the roster
if he has a hot spring training! That will allow them to replace anyone who fails to hit over .400 in March. Looking at you, Sandoval.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 14, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Posey needs to play C. The difference between his value at C and at LF is around ~$8M a year if he was on the free agent market. I think you’re underestimating just how valuable C is – even knowing he’s not going to play the full season, Posey + average LF >>>> Posey + average C. It’s an enormous difference. There’s nothing wrong with Posey playing in AAA – he only got 151 PA’s there last year, he can still improve by facing that kind of competition, and more important it delays his arb clock and service time. I honestly wouldn’t mind leaving him in AAA for the entire season, and the beginning of next year (long enough to prevent Super 2) – but that depends on the rest of our roster, if we were the NL West frontrunner this year, I would absolutely start Posey right away at C, but unfortunately….we’re not because of Sabean. To be blunt, we are not a playoff team as constructed right now, whether Posey plays or not. We get 6 years of team/cost control, so why waste 1 of those years on a team that needs a lot of luck to make the playoffs? To maximize the return on our investment, Posey needs to stay at C, and start the year at AAA, at least long enough to prevent Super 2.
This was funny. But not in a good way.
FREE BUSTER POSEY
But on the other hand, can Buster Posey match Bengie Molina's spring training heroics? It's debatable.
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