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Around SBN: Ellenberger vs. Sanchez Heats Up, Hughes Talks Retirement

The state of this country would not be significantly effected by the loss of baseball beat writers or sports writers in general, but this is yet another sign of the trouble that newspapers are in, and it is really frightening to me.

Anyway, I wish this guy luck.

about 2 years ago Bender_futurama_tiny Uribe nee Gonzalez 35 comments 0 recs  | 

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This is a subject that greatly interests me...

In all seriousness, the transformation we are about to witness the media going through is going to be epic, for what people consider a ‘vital’ industry.

What we’ve seen already is the so-called Democratization of the industry with the internet allowing anyone with anything to say being able to post. However, while this has allowed a number of incredible opportunities, it has also led to, in my opinion, a loss of ethics and an increase in the tabloidization of the entire media (from sports to politics coverage). It also has, more quietly, led to the preaching-to-the-choir polarization of the news.

The worst thing that the industry did was set the expectation that this content could be provided for free. Real, true news reporting has real costs, both in terms of the financial and beyond. Now the regular public has reached a point where they feel it is just short of a constitutional right that news be free. This as a number of people (including many on this site) have added ad-blocking software to their browsers, which is the long-standing main source of revenue for most media outlets.

This situation is going to get worse before it gets better. I doubt that the news media will go away…but the system will have to change. Part of me is genuinely scared, though, that the way the average person views the news, and what they want out of it, won’t allow it to be as clean as the real media wishes it could be.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com

by BruteSentiment on Feb 8, 2010 9:25 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Ah, a return to the good old days

When every newspaper was funded by and the mouthpiece for a political party, union, religious booster, ethnic group, or fraternal organization. Biases were up front and blatant.

Seriously though, 100 year old “news” articles are a hoot. It’s like the internet with better editing (usually).

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 8, 2010 9:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I Completely Agree

The current states of both Fox News and MSNBC are in my view a threat to our democracy. We need the media to be truly independent and non biased. We do not need the multiple different and competing agenda driven media wings we are starting to see more and more of today.

by giantsrainman on Feb 8, 2010 9:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Thank God we still have CNN and the best political team on television

by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 9, 2010 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Larry King is a heartless wretch.

Well, maybe not. I don’t know the man. But his show is terrible.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Feb 9, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Larry King is a heartless wretch.

Well, maybe not. I don’t know the man

He’s a dodger fan. Need you know more?

Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010

by Gobroks on Feb 9, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

It is.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 10, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

there’s really no such thing as independent unbiased media. at the end of the day people with biases and agendas make the final decisions on what news they’ll deliver or won’t. And just because some journalists or executives claim they don’t have an agenda, doesn’t mean that’s true.

and what we need are more Fox’s and MSNBCs’. there need to be more sources of news, analysis, opinion. if people don’t like what they see, they won’t watch (see MSNBC’s ratings). if they do, they will (see Fox’s ratings). more voices are better for democracy, rather than a threat to it.

anyway, cable news channels hardly have the influence that people threatened by them tend to attribute to them. they reach far less people (%-wise, if not total #-wise) than the big 3 TV networks did in their heyday before cable and talk radio and the internet divided the market. they don’t have a monopoly and no one should, regardless of how independent and unbiased they claim to be.

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 9, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I think the problem with the FOXes and / or MSNBCs isn’t so much that it’s analysis and not reporting, but that it’s pandering and not analysis.

What we need is more people trying to tell us things that are more correct. Sometimes the two sides to an issue are the wrong side and the right side, and we need fewer networks that are dedicated to one particular side regardless of whether it’s right or wrong, and more that are dedicated to trying not to be wrong, regardless of slant.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Feb 9, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Looking at that comment, it’s a bit of a base way to state it.

Mayor says it somewhat better than I do: here and here.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Feb 9, 2010 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

To clarify, we’re not quite talking about the same exact things, Mayor and I, but we are hitting on the same aversion of the modern media to actually report rather than pander, and he expresses it more fluently than I have.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Feb 9, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Good comments Brute.

One thing to remember is that virtually all news stories no matter the media that one consumes them in, originate from newspaper beat reporters. These are trained professionals who understand the objectivity and the ethics of journalism. Analysis and opinion are not necessarily constrained by these forces. My fear is that there is a Foxification of the news media, where analysis replaces objective reporting. The cable channels are not going away, but their interest in objective reporting certainly isn’t increasing.

Maybe, just maybe, projects like the iPad and other multimedia devices will save “newspapers”. If they can get the costing model right, there are potential sources of revenue there.

Also, this concept of “free” is strange. There is no “free”. When we (I am as guilty of this as anybody) consume media for no money, and the effect is that bureaus close their doors and staff is cut at newspapers – this is a huge cost. Yes, I didn’t pay any money up front to view the NY Times, but my quality of life is now effected by the lack of civic coverage.

One more thing. The dynamic of the the death of the newspaper industry will be interesting. I think it is very possible that major regional newspapers find a way to survive, possibly through a combination of factors like endowments, but smaller papers die. Hopefully these smaller markets will be able to maintain a news gathering ability, perhaps like San Diego (http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/support_us/about_us/). Also, as Egon Spengler said way back in 1984, “Print is dead.”

/auto-defenestrates

Dear Internet,
Please fire Brian Sabean.
Signed,
Me

FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.

by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 9, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Today's newspaper is now yesterday's newspaper.

You don’t need huge bloated newsrooms to produce in depth news reporting and analysis. if newspaper businesses want to stay alive, they’ll have to trim the fat and get sleeker and produce more up to date information – they’ll have to compete in the marketplace like other businesses do.

But you’re right about the free thing. However, 10 years ago, a lot of people were insisting that music be free and now for the most part, people seem to readily pay for downloads.

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 9, 2010 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Brute

Hey man, I am an old friend from another board, who has worked in print media and is now dealing with a career change after 10 years of a pretty successful career in print.

Anyway, I think that once the transition is pretty much complete, to digital media, there will be other ways to monetize the news beyond directly placing ads in content, and subscription pay.

The problem is that the advertisers have a gigantic hammer over the media outlets and every year the demands for product integration and editorial content for ad dollars gets more and more intense. Just look at your local news broadcast for a prime example. When I began my own media venture I was shocked by the editorial demands of advertisers, I didn’t give because my position was that, real, usable, and relevant content presented in a high quality manner was what differentiated me from my competition. Well, I didn’t survive, and my competition did. The sad thing is that I had a ton of outrageously possitive response, while all I ever heard about the competition was negative. No one read the competition, yet they whored their editorial space for their advertisers, and their advertisers were just vain enough and dumb enough to keep the ad contracts going without getting the ROI they could get other places.

Quality of content is a very difficult differentiation to win with in the media game—look at Hollywood. It is more and more about how you bring in revenue, and if the only way you can do that is through ads, your advertisers are going to, for the most part own your editorial too.

While behavioral advertising, like we see on McC, is entirely orwellian, it may be what frees news outlets in the future.

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

By the way Brute and others

You must listen to the podcasts on this topic by Bill Simmons. The guy can be genius and idiotic all in the same package. Here is one of the three with Chuck Klosterman, another was with the former Ombudsman for ESPN, who was the first female sports editor for the NYT, can’t remember her name, and the other was with, John Walsh of ESPN.

http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=ptrivial.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquery-origin.andohs.net%2F8000A6%2Fcontent-root3.andomedia.com%2Forigin%2Fmp3%2Fespnradio%2Fsportsguy%2Fsimmons090313.mp3

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

The worst thing that the industry did was set the expectation that this content could be provided for free. Real, true news reporting has real costs, both in terms of the financial and beyond. Now the regular public has reached a point where they feel it is just short of a constitutional right that news be free. This as a number of people (including many on this site) have added ad-blocking software to their browsers, which is the long-standing main source of revenue for most media outlets..

Well said Brute. The current situation with print media was created by the old guard publishers that had no real concept of how powerful the “twenty-four hour/ seven day a week” monster the internet could be. By the time that they realized what had happened, it was beyond their control and costing them the very “readers” they were trying to capture. They didn’t take the medium seriously and are now paying the price for their ignorance.

As you stated, “the regular public has reached a point where they feel it is just short of a constitutional right that news be free”. I would be interested in your thoughts as to how this could be corrected. We are surrounded by advertising driven media. Broadcast TV and news is almost completely supported by as evidenced by yeaterdays advertising extravaganza. I’m not sure that advertisers are completely sold on the return on investment of internet advertising as a viable means of communicating with their target audience. In reality, advertisers could more easily and effectively reach their target audience on the internet. Sadly, they often choose annoying and obtrusive advertising that cause viewers (readers) to use features like ad-block and other tools to make the advertising disappear.

Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !

by nvsfg on Feb 8, 2010 10:01 PM PST reply actions  

Well said Brute. The current situation with print media was created by the old guard publishers that had no real concept of how powerful the "twenty-four hour/ seven day a week" monster the internet could be. By the time that they realized what had happened, it was beyond their control and costing them the very "readers" they were trying to capture. They didn’t take the medium seriously and are now paying the price for their ignorance.

just an example of this. About 6 months ago I spoke one on one with a VP of one of the largest news publishers in the country. She thought that interactive media was essentially a trend that would die and there would always be a need for print media. She asked me if I knew anything about the advent of television and why radio didn’t die with TV…This is VP of a MAJOR publisher.

On a related note, a few months later I spoke with a media director for a fortune 500 company. I asked about their buying trends and how they are dealing with the changing environment. He told me this…"Web has always been difficult for us because our top revenue products are very heavy, and people aren’t going to go to click on an add to go to our website just so they can pay $30 for an item that costs $35 to ship."

I then asked,

“Do you see web advertising as only a means to drive web purchases?”

he answered,

“Yes.”

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m not sure that advertisers are completely sold on the return on investment of internet advertising as a viable means of communicating with their target audience. In reality, advertisers could more easily and effectively reach their target audience on the internet. Sadly, they often choose annoying and obtrusive advertising that cause viewers (readers) to use features like ad-block and other tools to make the advertising disappear.

Two things here.

1. Everything is free on the web. This attitude will not change until incredible communication innovations like Facebook, Twitter, Google, are not free anymore. Just about every web based communication aplication is free, and it’s always been that way, mainly because it was undervalued from the start, and services felt like they had to give it away just to gain an audience.

2. Interactive advertising is a million times more effective than print. If news services only allowed behavioral and key word based advertising and sites only offered that in text ad form like what google does, they coould monetize their content while not having advertisers dictate editorial.

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Obviously this type of thing directly impacts me and I’m scared. Yet, this type of post gives me hope. This man is not asking for a handout. He’s taking the shifting dynamic of media, the more cooperative/collaborative angle of it, and working it to his advantage. He’s offering incentives to his readers to give him money, to get better access and coverage. Everyone wins here.

As someone who’s been doing it by herself, paying completely out of pocket to travel, get the technology to stay in the game, and working for little or no salary through my entire career, my hat is off to this guy.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Feb 8, 2010 10:18 PM PST reply actions  

the scary part about this to me is the lack of editorial control with self published sites. Brute hit the nail on the head, with a loss of ethics, and especially politically, it is forcing people to choose which slant they want on their news. This is going to be interesting, for sure.

by tyrannoman on Feb 9, 2010 9:52 AM PST reply actions  

One could argue the lack of editorial control in mainstream print media as well.

WHY IS BENGIE?!

by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 9, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

In my opinion it is more of total editorial control in the terms of content. The lack of quality editing with the final document has become frightening. The “text and tweet” generation does not format correctly, spell correctly, or use proper grammar.

That said, the grammar nazis may now feel free to pick apart this post.

Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !

by nvsfg on Feb 9, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

The New York Times

can’t turn a profit and your worried about comma splices?

Seriously?

This is a business innovation and adaptation problem that has nothing to do with punctuation.

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

The New York Times can’t turn a profit and your worried about comma splices? This is a business innovation and adaptation problem that has nothing to do with punctuation.

I am not worried about it just offended by it. I completely agree that the problem is a lack of understanding on how to compete effectively and be profitable in a new medium.

Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !

by nvsfg on Feb 10, 2010 10:50 PM PST up reply actions  

or too much control as in the complete cover up of the John Edwards sliminess during the campaign.

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 9, 2010 1:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Which Most Likely Cost Hillary

In my view she was a better option then either Obama or McCain.

by giantsrainman on Feb 9, 2010 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think this is bad

Can’t I tune in to CNBC knowing I will get Kieth Olberman style Telegraph Avenue politics, and the next minute, go to Fox and now that I am getting News from behind the Orange Curtain? Then I can go to a Blog and discern what I get from there? Ideally I think that you would get truly unbiased news, but I don’t think that is as significant of a problem as the horrendous, and even nonexistant revenue models being used today.

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m a little frightened that there are so many people that are actually frightened about the death of newspapers.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 9, 2010 12:50 PM PST reply actions  

So you think that newspapers do not play a vital role in the propagation of democracy in this country?

/auto-defenestrates

Dear Internet,
Please fire Brian Sabean.
Signed,
Me

FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.

by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 9, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

not really

I think they role newspapers play as guardians of all things factual and investigative is highly overstated, and I think any role they do play can be easily replaced by other forms of media (the ones that people actually consume these days).

by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 9, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

exactly. people these days want more unfiltered news/facts so we can make up our own minds about stuff – we want to decide what’s important and not leave that up to some ivy league douchebag.

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 9, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't understand.

Unless you are witnessing “news”, it is being filtered by the person distributing it, no matter the form. I would rather that person be an educated, experienced individual than the kid down the street with a twitter account.

/auto-defenestrates

Dear Internet,
Please fire Brian Sabean.
Signed,
Me

FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.

by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 9, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Agree.

I think the splintering of news is a good thing.

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Feb 10, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

news won’t go away, but the way it is consumed and delivered will change. there will always be a market for news and if there’s a void in its delivery something will pop up to take its place, assuming govt doesn’t come in make the newspaper business a utility. newspapers are just a physical delivery system. there’s no reason to expect that it will remain exactly the same way forever.

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 9, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

big brother’s watching, we watch him back
he sees right through our disguiiiiise
he likes to scare us, with angry words
but we all know that they’re liiiiiies

danny elfman

Les Plack = more chicks
Yahoo FFL champ 2009
Dingerz.exe League Champs 2009- The Rile Rods...managed by yours truly.
Chose the Saints and the under to win my bet with my gf...i'm on a roll.

by Headhunter Rollins on Feb 9, 2010 2:28 PM PST reply actions  

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