Urban: Giants on Thin Ice with Lincecum
There’s no need to freak out -- pun semi-intended -- in light of recent comments from Tim Lincecum’s agent, Rick Thurman, who suggested to the San Jose Mercury News that the Giants are low-balling his client...
about 2 years ago
CSN Bay Area
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This doesn't sound good at all
To say the recent discussions between the Giants and Thurman, who exchanged arbitration numbers featuring the largest gap in the history of the process, have not gone well is an understatement.
“Dismissals” would be more accurate — as in the Lincecum camp promptly dismissing every variation of the Giants’ proposed two-year deals.
And with each perceived insult of an offer, Lincecum is said to think less and less of the team he’s almost single-handedly put back on the map.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
If the Giants don’t win a World Series or two while Lincecum’s under club control, he’s all but gone, and he’ll be leaving in four years because of what’s happening right now.
If this thing goes to a hearing, win or lose, the Franchise will never look at the franchise quite the same.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I’d be really concerned about this if it was written by a writer I respected.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Feb 3, 2010 3:38 PM PST via mobile reply actions
So true
I would say Urban is a joke, but that would imply he might be funny, which is is certainly not. The next good piece of baseball wisdom he imparts will be the first.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 3, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
Absolutely
Urban is taking a little too much license by interpreting this (naturally) adversarial process as personal, especially when you consider the unprecedented nature of this case in particular. The facts of the matter are interesting enough without the added bullshit in his so-called reporting.
I wish Baggs would stomp on his tiny little sack.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Feb 3, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
this is ridiculous even for Urban
Come on, this is how negotiations always work. Lincecum will get a very big contract and this will all be forgotten before Spring Training starts. Let’s not overreact.
"even for urban" just when you think he couldn't say anything worse......he does
Chick's dig the long ball.
by The Montana Giant on Feb 3, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
How about we all pretend that Lincecum signed a 4/$80M contract this offseason with an unheard of “risk-limiting” clause that allows the Giants to be completely free from any financial obligation in the event of a catastrophe? Then we’ll celebrate. Yay! Good move, Giants!
And then let’s worry about Lincecum’s contract in 2012 or 2013.
I am going to use this idea as my next feces painting, er… umm… blog post! I think the Giants will like it. Now, if they could have only gotten Tejada and Byrnes.
by My?chael Urbaneless on Feb 3, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
Which is fine with me
There is very little chance that a team friendly contract can be worked out, so just abuse the arbitration process and say goodbye to Timmy once he’s a FA.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
True
It sucks to envision scenarios where Timmy is gone, but I think that might be a forgone conclusion at this point, considering the way he’s been handled.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Handled?
This is the process. If Lincecum wants to complain he then should complain about his signing bonus of over $2M withouth ever throwing a pitch in MLB. That is the process.
He should complain about being paid peanuts after winning his first Cy Young award. However that is the process.
Let things play out. They have yet to go thru the arb process. Sabean would like to sign the kid to a team friendly deal and the player would like to be paid accordingly for his services. The kid is still 4 years away from free agency.
No, I meant the way he’s been handled the last few years. It has to be annoying seeing so many other young stars being given multi-year contracts while not getting one yourself. And there seems to be a lot of bickering in the press between the FO and his agent, which can’t be good.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
it takes both parties to sign a long term contract
by all accounts his people haven’t wanted to do so
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2010 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
The whole back and forth on that (some accounts say he does, some say he doesn’t) makes me think that both parties may have been very difficult to deal with.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I’ve never seen anything that says his side was open to it, other than some bullshit very vague standard statements from Tim himself (the kind of stuff an athlete is almost forced to stay when asked a question like that) like the one that MLB Trade Rumors ran with under the headline “Lincecum open to long term contract!” If you have something that says his side is truly open to it, I would be very interested in seeing that.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
Beyond it being colossally stupid for a player to not want to sign a deal that sets him for life, last offseason there were reports that they were working on a long term deal.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Paying Tim $80 million for the next four seasons still makes him eligible for free agency at the same exact time. And with $13 million as a base, I doubt the Giants would pay that much year-to-year.
The Giants need to go seven seasons with Tim (as with Barry Zito) in order to buy three years of free agency as was the case with Felix Hernandez and Justin Verlander. That begins to involve a lot of time risk though. Even a five-year contract is considered long for a pitcher.
I have a possible solution, but I will need to mention it later.
Haft Thinks Otherwise
SAN FRANCISCO — Though Tim Lincecum’s agent envisions a arbitration hearing for the two-time Cy Young Award winner, knowledgeable observers doubt that a salary showdown with the Giants will unfold.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Schulman Agrees With Urban. Isn't this fun!
It appears the Giants and Tim Lincecum won’t be agreeing on any long-term deal and that the pitcher will have to “settle” for whatever the arbitration panel concludes.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/giants/detail?blogid=22&entry_id=56603#ixzz0eWRFYicn
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
One, two, you hear the clock ticking?
Tick tock, you about to stop living
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I'M COMIN'
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Let the arbitration process play out
If the arb rules in Giants favor then Lincecum will come back to the negotiation table. If the arb rules in Lincecum favor then the Giants will step up their negotiations.
My belief is that the Giants should go one more season before offering more than a two year deal.
“If the arb rules in the Giants favor”? No way that’s going to happen. I seriously doubt the Giants actually believe the court will take their number over his, and they should be stepping up their negotiations now anyway, because they need to keep Timmy around.
they need to keep Timmy around.
He will be a well paid indentured servant the next 4 years for the Giants
yeah but
I want to see him as a well paid superstar for the next 8 years until he retires as a Giant.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
They Do And They Should
Context as always is everything. The Giants offer ($8M) is a new record for a first year arbitration pitcher exceeding the previous record for a starting pitcher by $3.65M ($4.35M set by Dontrelle Willis in 2006 and tied by Cole Hamels last year) and the previous record for any pitcher by $1.75M ($6.25M set by Jonathan Papelbon last year). The Giants offer ($8M) is closer to the record for any first year arbitration player ($10M set by Ryan Howard in 2008) by $1M then Timmy’s request ($13M) is.
Through out baseball history the best everyday players have made more money then the best every 4 or 5 days starting pitchers. Tim Lincecum’s 2 Cy Youngs have no more value in the arbitration process then Ryan Howand’s MVP and Rockie of the Year and may have less value. The Giants have a very good case that their number being closer to $10M then Timmy’s number is the right choice for the arbitration panel to make.
Now on to the clearly Timmy’s agent driven press histaria. Give me a break, this is so obviously posturing to try and put pressure on the Giants to settle early. It looks to me like Timmy’s camp is the one blinking and realizing they are the one’s with an uphill fight if this does go to arbitration. All these numbers for free agent pitchers and post 1st year arbitration pitchers just do not matter. These are not Timmy’s context.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 7:19 PM PST up reply actions
Your logic is the logical reasoning. So your wrong!
Also, note the decline in pitcher salaries this year.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 4, 2010 6:54 AM PST up reply actions
Your=you’re
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 4, 2010 6:55 AM PST up reply actions
Rockie of the Year
PURPLE PINSTRIPE DREAMS!!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 4, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
I think the Giants envisioned meeting Tim halfway between what he’s asked for and what they’re offering. The player and agent are correctly playing hardball because they feel if it goes to arbitration they are going to win. The Giants should have been smarter with their offer, and now they’re going to have to pay for their mistake.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Feb 3, 2010 5:52 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Um… 23 million?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
lol
TRADE HIM NOW!!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 4, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions
Quote from Sabean from the Giant's facebook page:
On Timmy:
“The bottom line is we worked in earnest to negotiate a two-year deal but it looks like it’s not going to happen,’’ he said from the Giants complex in Scottsdale, where Buster Posey, Eugenio Velez, Dan Runzler, Manny Burriss and others are attending a conditioning camp in preparation for spring training.
“It looks like we’ll be going to arbitration on a one-year deal.’’
On the 2010 lineup:
“With this lineup, I think we can springboard off the 88 wins from last year and get into playoff contention,’’ he said
The reasons?
“Number One,‘’ Sabean said, "we’ll have more experience on the field. Number Two, guys will be able to hit in the order where they have traditionally hit.’’
On Buster and Molina:
“That ship had sailed,‘’ he said. "As it turned out, he didn’t want to go to New York and we’re thankful. He is back in place to help the pitching staff and take the pressure off Buster Posey.’’
Posey, he said, could spend most of the season in Triple A or be the backup in San Francisco. "We’ll know more after spring training,‘’ Sabean said. "We’re keeping an open mind.’’
Yes, fans… he really is that dumb.
That might be it for me
…if Posey winds up as the backup catcher on Opening Day.
I try not to break the rules, but merely to test their elasticity.
"Number One,‘’ Sabean said, "we’ll have more experience on the field. Number Two, guys will be able to hit in the order where they have traditionally hit.’’
I’m sticking this one on the mantle next to the “why didn’t the Giants sign Vlad?” quote.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Experienced veteran grit!!
With a side of warrior spirit.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
I Am Calling BS
Until a link is provided this is just make up in my book.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Feb 3, 2010 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
He made all that up and managed to write it in Sabean’s dumbass voice. Are you for real?
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Always what?
Take that!
And that!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Feb 3, 2010 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously?
I told you right where it came from. You can verify in under 30 seconds with very little effort.
Your failure to do so leads me to the following options:
1) you are incredibly lazy;
2) you are just as dumb as Sabean;
3) you are just an ass; or
4) I fell into a sarchasm.
I hope, for your sake, it was 4.
Is your love complete?
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 4, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
He was good at leadoff in a SSS
He basically said it was just SSS but…Bork & Sabes don’t believe in SSS
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I swear to God, I don’t even know what I’ll do if they keep Buster as the backup catcher.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I Would Join The Fire Sabean Now Crowd
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
Goddamn
If even Rainman thinks it’s inexcusable, you know it’s a horrible decision.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
To Be Clear
Posey being the backup for a while is not the issue. It is the timing of starting the season this way as thus wasting one of the Giants’ years of control on a backup role that is the issue. The Giants just must start Posey in Fresno and keep him there thru the end of June. After that I would be fine with bringing him up to be the backup and/or split time with Bengie for the rest of the year. This way they have six more full years of Posey as a starter and no risk of super two. I see no logic behind any other path.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions
when BMoney said he is willing to mentor GPosey that told me the Giants made it very clear to BMoney that the organization is willing to promote Posey from AAA when he shows he is ready/the organization has slowed his service clock enough time to avoid Super 2 status.
OH MY GOD.
"That ship had sailed,‘’ he said.
This is EXACTLY what he fucking said about Molina at the beginning of the offseason. Only the ship was going the other direction.
TIME IS CYCLICAL!
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
After all this time, I still couldn't quite make myself believe it
He really does believe that experience makes somebody a better player. It’s experience that the Giants lack.
Maybe that’s why he is lowballing Lincecum?
The baseball Satanist
fuck you sabean
you’ve been running the franchise into the ground you old hack.
they can hit in their traditional order, but it won’t matter if they’re still mediocre and without a power hitter in the 4 spot. so pissed.
It Is All Made Up.
No link was provided. How gullible can you be.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 7:22 PM PST up reply actions
Before you start your name calling. He told you where to find the article, and just didn’t link it. Relax
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Feb 3, 2010 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
You are correct
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Until A Link Was Provide Being Sceptable Was Warrented
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 7:45 PM PST up reply actions
The word is "skeptical’, my friend.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
How Can We Know That For Sure If You Don't Provide A Link?
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 3, 2010 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Being skeptical may have been warranted (though no one else was and they all turned out to be right), but saying “It Is All Made Up” and “How gullible can you be” to someone who believed it was not warranted. In fact, it was…
Dead Wrong!
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 3, 2010 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
yes, it was completely warranted to believe that somebody made up several quotes that sounded exactly like Sabean and made up a source where he supposedly found them.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2010 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
There are times when I feel like sticking up for you, GRM. And then you do things like this.
The baseball Satanist
Guilty As Charged In This Case Of Too Quick Of A Trigger.
by giantsrainman on Feb 4, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
that's a very interesting piece from Baggerly
but it begs the question: if the entire goal is to avoid Lincecum getting more than $10 million and setting a new precedent, why not file for $9 million or $9.5 million and give yourselves a much better chance to win the case?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2010 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
+1
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 3, 2010 8:41 PM PST up reply actions
Room to Negotiate
Hard to negotiate and keep the final result under $10M if you start that close to $10M.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2010 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah basically this. The Giants rarely go to arbitration, and usually deals that do get settled are close to the midpoint of the offers. If the Giants offer more, sure they gain a bit of leverage by increasing their chances of winning arbitration, but they lose a lot in negotiation because the midpoint moves up.
by Missing Barry on Feb 4, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions
or
if the owners are really pressuring them, and it’s so vital to keep the dollars down, why is a two year deal the end-all, be-all? His “giant motivation” would seem to argue for getting any kind of deal that would avoid a $13M arb award.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Feb 3, 2010 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
Beyond Stupid
Go look at Albert Pujols career salaries. 2004 in particular. A measly $7 million for the best player in the game whose middle name wasn’t Lamar. Yeah, it’s so obvious that modern players quickly sour on a club that underpays them…
To hell with this alarmist fucktardery. Deals will get done and Timmeh will be around for quite a long time. It’s just a matter of sucking it up and living with an inflated payroll for a couple of seasons until the bullshit Zito contract expires.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™
by S.F. Giangst on Feb 3, 2010 8:56 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
alarmist fucktardery
that is the perfect description of this article
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
When I hear the agent and the GM making public statements about a negotiation
it makes me think they’re still negotiating while they are making the public statements. So the sabr-rattling from both sides about inevitability of a hearing I think is what it is. I don’t think it really means the hearing is inevitable.
Unfortunately, it’s also not the same as all the other arb-avoiding deals, which just get announced (cf. Wilson). I know it’s high-profile, but the fact that it’s gone from quiet meetings to public statements means the mercury is rising.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
Good point, the public statements are probably part of the neogiation. Especially in this case, the agent knows how much public pressure can be put on Sabean because Timmy is the face of the franchise.
by Missing Barry on Feb 4, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
Exactamundo!
Lincecum’s agent is almost certainly aware of the fact that Sabes considered trading Timmy a couple years ago before the fan base began firing up their torches and sharpening their pitchforks*. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist (or a Sabermatrician) to realize that a few well-placed comments about the Giants low-balling Timmy could get the local populace all fired up again (like, oh, I don’t know, in this Fan Shot), and put pressure on Sabes to raise his offer. If I was his agent I know that’s what I’d do.
*Just thinking about this makes me proud — some of our parents might have helped stop a war in the 70’s, but we stood up and stopped an immoral trade. If you ask me, we’re the real heroes.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 4, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Urban is very chummy with athletes and he would the the go-to mouthpiece for the athlete’s and agent’s line, just as Haft, and to a lesser extent the Chron, could be relate the front office’s line.
My rule is, never sign a pitcher to a long-term contract.
However, Lincecum is a freak and cannot be predicted. We are Hari Seldon and he is The Mule.
JUST A CITY BOY
Something I read on Fangraphs that I’ll point out to people:
Remember, though, that we expect Lincecum, as a first year arbitration player, to only receive 40% of his market value. As a $21M free market value player, Lincecum should receive about $8.4M from the arbitrators.
So what does this mean? First of all, don’t be surprised if the Giants win their case, as it would be right in line with what the arbitration market has done in the past. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if Lincecum wins the case, either. Much like Howard, it’s possible that the arbitrators will award Lincecum a dollar amount above his true value due to his superstardom and his awards.
second of all
don’t the arbitrators have to pick either the players’ number, or the team’s number?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Feb 4, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah the point I’m trying to make is there seems to be a reasonable case for both the Giants number and for Timmy’s number. I have no idea which the arbiters would pick, I don’t see how anyone could in a case like this with no precedent, but I can see reasons why either side would win.
by Missing Barry on Feb 4, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
yeah I was picking on Meyieacheal
his formula has no correlation to the two possible results from the hearing.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Feb 4, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
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