Ranking Prospects
by Grant on Feb 2, 2010 7:00 AM PST
345 comments
Three years ago, Kevin Goldstein told the following to both of the readers of this site:
McCovey Chronicles: When ranking prospects, how do you balance the five-tool, high-ceiling types with the one- or two-tool types who are already close to impacting a major-league roster at something less than an All-Star level?Kevin Goldstein: That's kind of the secret sauce in many ways. Ranking prospect combines two things - predicting a player's ultimate ceiling and crossing that with a players chances of actually reaching that ceiling. It's really different for every guy and you have to develop a feel for it really.
That description always stuck with me. Secret sauce. It’s a quick and vivid way to describe the art of prospectin’. The problem is that anyone can slap together a secret sauce and call it a secret sauce, but that doesn’t make it a good secret sauce. If my knowledge of the Giants’ best prospects were analogous to a secret sauce, for example, it would be some vinegar and buttermilk in a fondue pot, heated lukewarm before it’s poured over a pile of mushy cauliflower. That’s why this stuff is free. I don’t know what I’m talking about. I was only able to see a few minor league games this year, and I’m certainly not qualified to do anything scouty when I’m there.
That isn’t to say that I’m humble enough to forgo a top-10 list this year like I used to. No, I’ve been getting more and more arrogant as the years have built up, so I’m going to stretch this thing out into a top-30 list over several days. Hold up your plate; I’ve got something I’d like to ladle onto it. Mmmmm.
When I’m pretending to be qualified, here are some of my prospectin' tenets:
- Ignore references to "TINSTAAPP," that wacky acronym of dogmatic baseball nerds everywhere. It’s only useful for creating false dichotomies. All prospects will break your heart. Pretending that hitters turn out swell in a nice, linear fashion is a good way to do something stupid. Like, oh, ranking Todd Linden over Matt Cain.
Instead of flipping a coin to decide between two prospects, though, go with the hitter. I’ll give the TINSTAAPP partisans that much. - Overrate players who show an above-average ability to hit for power, take a walk, or strike a hitter out while being among the youngest players in their league. Pablo Sandoval wasn’t lighting the prospect world on fire, but 20-year-olds usually don’t have a .189 ISO in High-A. Should have paid more attention.
- Value high ceilings more than lower ceilings who are more of a sure thing to make a major league roster. Brandon Medders struck out 53 in 41 innings in his pro debut, coasting to an ERA of 1.32. The scouts said, meh, he’s projectable, but he’ll never be a closer. He has a good chance of being a useful middle reliever, they’d say, but nothing more. Some folks believe in cost certainty with their prospect rankings, so they’ll look at a player like this and argue forcefully in his favor.
And the cost certainty folks had part of it right: Medders provided a major league team with value. But he didn’t do it for the team that drafted him. He did it for a team that picked him up off the scrap heap. Teams share players like Medders like hydrogen atoms share electrons, or like Dylan McKay and Brandon Walsh share girlfriends. So when a player’s ceiling is something akin to what Brandon Medders has proven he can do, I respond with: You want a Medders? I can get you a Medders, believe me. Hell, I can get you a Medders by 3 o’clock this afternoon. I used to be tempted by the Adam Cowarts and Brian Horwitzes of the world. No more.
Nothing especially scientific, mind you, but that’s most of what goes into my secret sauce. That, and a couple teaspoons of dill. Maybe some nutmeg. Over the next week or so, I’ll go over my amateur list of 30. Please, no wagering.
Comment starter: Your secret sauce. Divulge your secrets. Keep the lawyers and their non-disclosure agreements out of this.
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My pet peeve (for all of the minors) is ranking HS players high on lists. I just find it hard to believe that you couldn’t find 22 players in the all the MiLB that aren’t better than Matzek.
My career path, have you seen it?
I don’t get this at all. Baseball is a game of physical ability. Matzek (for instance) has physical ability comparable to the very best pitchers in the game. Why wouldn’t you rank him high?
I just find it absurd. HS’ers are relative unknowns, I mean Strasburg wasn’t even drafted out of HS.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 7:35 AM PST up reply actions
And I know the Strasburg argument is stupid. But it just shows you how fast things can change.
I’m also not saying not to draft HS’ers, I just think ranking them highly, over proven pro commodities is one of my pet peeves.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 7:39 AM PST up reply actions
Actually, on second thought, I know for a fact it is on of my pet peeves!
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
Well, Strasburg is relevant to the discussion, because I guarantee you that someone somewhere on the internet is at this moment writing something like, “I don’t care about the hype, I’m not going to take him seriously until we see what he can do against professional hitters.”
Why wouldn’t you rank him high?
Probably because all they’ve done so far is go against HS level competition, and even the level of competition among HS varies widely. Production matters to some degree, and these guys have yet to show any amount of production against actual talent yet. There have to be guys with ability and some amount of production to go along with it out there to rank over the HS guys, right?
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 7:44 AM PST up reply actions
Production, for pitchers this young, matters to zero degree. First-round HS pitchers very often flop, but they also have a decent chance of turning into Cain or Kershaw or Greinke or Kazmir or Hamels or Danks or Philip Hughes. I’ll happily take the risk along with upside.
Draft wise- I agree with you 100%
Ranking wise- I just don’t see it.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 8:07 AM PST up reply actions
Well, I guess that’s one of the side questions raised by Grant’s post — how does ranking differ from drafting?
Because you’re only drafting the HS player against other players without professional experience, too.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:43 AM PST up reply actions
But if you’re going to draft a player highly because you believe that their ceiling is high enough to take the risk, wouldn’t you want them to be considered one of your higher ranked prospects?
I’m not sure why you would rank draft choices differently than prospects. You’re still talking about all the same things: potential ceiling versus potential to hit potential ceiling. If the reward is good enough to get you drafted, it should be good enough to get you ranked on a prospect list.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 8:14 AM PST up reply actions
Well the thing with HS players is that you may get higher ceilings, but you also get lower floors.
Take this scenario:
-Giants draft HS player X this year
-X is a RHP and is said to be a superior talent to any HS pitcher in last years draft.
-Wheeler debuts and pitches to 150 IP, 122H, 165 SO and 27 BB.
Would you rank X higher than Wheeler b/c his “talent level” is said to be higher?
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 8:20 AM PST up reply actions
Probably not, but by the same token would you draft X higher than Wheeler if they were in the same draft and you knew for a fact that would be Wheeler’s line?
I’m not quite sure what distinction you’re drawing. In this scenario, Player X might have a higher ceiling, but that’s outbalanced by the fact that Wheeler has now shown the chances that he will reach his own relatively high ceiling are much higher. It’s still the same balancing act.
Now say the Giants select Hitter X out of HS this year and he projects to a very high ceiling. Then say that some 32-year-old minor league lifer puts up a .300 / .387 / .540 line in AAA for the first time in his life. Are you saying that the 32-year-old should be ranked more highly than Hitter X?
I just don’t see how the process of balancing ceiling and potential to hit ceiling changes when you’re talking about players who have already been drafted as opposed to players who have not yet been drafted? Wouldn’t it be a mistake to draft a player in the first round who you wouldn’t be willing to rank among your top prospects later by the same criteria you used to draft him?
How is the criteria different?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 8:36 AM PST up reply actions
Its just that drafting you have limited information, when it comes to prospect rankings to have a lot more info on a lot more players and some of the information is whether or not the talent translates to the pros. I happen to think that ability to translate talent to the pros is a major factor in prospect rankings. It matters less so, for me, for players coming out of college, but it is the reason I would, right now, take Heyward over Strasburg.
Now say the Giants select Hitter X out of HS this year and he projects to a very high ceiling. Then say that some 32-year-old minor league lifer puts up a .300 / .387 / .540 line in AAA for the first time in his life. Are you saying that the 32-year-old should be ranked more highly than Hitter X?
This is why I choose two consecutive drafts.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 8:43 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, basically the difference is the big time prospects are like a survivor bias group of the big time players drafted. Not only were the prospects drafted on their talent, but then the ones ranked high are the ones who’s production has increased their prospect stock. The guys drafted only have the talent evaluations, and are farther from the majors, without the production to indicate how they’ll fare against professionals. Production gives us more information, and so those guys have a higher expected amount of success then the guys we have yet to see play a game as a professional.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
Assuming that’s what say hey is getting at, I honestly don’t think there’s any disagreement here, between any of us, and I don’t know exactly why there’s such a gap between the words we’re saying.
When ranking a player who you just drafted against a player who has been in your system, of course you have more to go on for the person who has been in your system. If you have two guys with similar ceilings and one guy has already shown that he’s closer to actualizing his than the other, then that guy should be ranked more highly.
When ranking draft picks, you don’t have the luxury of that professional experience. You’re still ranking them on the same exact scale. You just don’t have as much data to fill the scale out with.
I mean, you draft players based on what they could become versus how likely they are to become that. You rank players in your system exactly the same way. If you have a player in your system who you just drafted and who hasn’t played, the actualization risk is naturally higher. But that’s being taken into account when making the rankings out. I mean, it’s fucking built in. I really don’t get the disagreement here.
I mean, it seems like say hey is saying, “You shouldn’t include high school players in your system rankings at all BECAUSE THEY HAVEN’T PLAYED.” And that seems extreme to me. If you’re applying the same system of risk versus reward, an extremely high reward / extremely high risk player should conceivably come out rated more highly than a moderately high reward / moderately high risk player, depending on your own tendency toward or away from risk aversion.
I feel like what say hey is saying shouldn’t be “HS players shouldn’t be ranked as high as these other guys.” It should be: “MY secret sauce is one that doesn’t appreciate high risk value because I don’t believe in it that much.”
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 9:03 AM PST up reply actions
ay hey is saying, "You shouldn’t include high school players in your system rankings at all BECAUSE THEY HAVEN’T PLAYED."
Not what I’m saying. Missing Barry is saying what I want to say, just in a more concise manner.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
Then we’re not disagreeing. We just have different opinions when it comes to risk-factor.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
Pretty much.
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
Ok, that was a good way of putting it. I just don’t see how their secret sauce can really rank HS guys who have yet to play against a high competition level as highly as they do in some cases. There really aren’t that many talented prospects with decent production out there to push them farther down the list? Like Maztek at 22, there really are only 21 prospects better than him? That just seems strange to me, that means he would be the top prospect in a number of systems – those systems don’t have guys with talent AND at least some production? Really? Though I guess the flip side is some guys with talent give you poor production and drop off the radar altogether…
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
I wouldn’t want to make too big a deal of this (because I do believe in the value of basing these rankings on scouting reports), but I do think it’s wrong to blanketly assume that top HS players haven’t played against high competition. The guys who are getting drafted in the top couple rounds (and getting the plum college scholarships) have been playing in competitions against each other for most of their high school lives — not in high school itself, of course, but in the showcase games and the prospect summer leagues. There’s very rarely a 1st round high school kid who hasn’t played in the top prospect only leagues every summer.
And that is a pretty high level of competition — higher than some of the lower levels of the minor leagues. For instance, Mike Trout and other high school stars who landed in the AZL last summer were almost certainly playing against a lower level of competition than they had previously in summer leagues and showcases with the best high schoolers in the country.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I knew about the showcases, not about the leagues, though. Are they really sustained leagues where they can actually get decent sample sizes to work with? It just seems to me like looking at how they do in showcases wouldn’t tell you anything more than watching them in any other high school setting since you just don’t have any kind of sample size to say anything about their performance, so all you can really do is watch them for tools and what not.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve never ever seen any stats from these summer leagues, but that may be just coverage. I’d say they’re the high school version of the Cape Cod League. But yes, the value is watching the kids with the highest tools compete against each other so the scouts see exactly how they’re skills match up.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Yeah it’s not so much looking at the stats as when the scouts watch a guy hit a bomb for a HR, was that a fluke, or if you watch them a bunch of times in a league, for instance, is that the type of thing you see more often so it’s actually a skill, you know? Even the best hitters will have days they just look bad, and the worst days they look like a stud, so I guess it’s more being able to see them repeatedly (like in a league situation) where you can get a better feel for how meaningful those performances are.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Right, plus the issue of, can this guy only hit bombs against inferior competition (most high school players), or can he catch his the potential major league quality stuff of the Jacob Turner, Matt Cain, Josh Beckett types.
That’s the real advantage I think, and that extends on into the minor leagues. It’s perfectly possible to put up a very good batting line in the minors by feasting on the career minor league types which fill most minor league pitching staffs (the guys with the 85 MPH fastballs) and still be completely outclassed by the real pitching prospects of your league. That’s why scouting reports are still essential to weigh against minor league stats.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Are you referring to AAU leagues? The teams tend to be compiled of the best of the best in young talent. i.e. The Norcal Angels.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Feb 2, 2010 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
i agree with most all of this
but scouts going to H,S games for pitchers really could care less about the comeitition. they want to see 96 on the gun, and command of secondary pitches, which maztek showed on several occasions. how many guys in the giants, or any other team’s organization can do this ? that is one explaination for that high of a ranking.
I run a girls youth softball organization. We deal with this issue constantly. I work closely with many travel and club level organizations. As with many Latin American baseball facilities, this has become an industry devoted to revenue. If one player from your organization hits MLB star status, it draws others and generates a huge payday.
From experience, I can tell you that scouts (college and pro in the US) are not really looking at high school games any longer. You may see them at a State Championship, but that’s about it. Most of their time is spent at showcase tournaments, and program organizations like the following:
http://www.baseballfactory.com/ourprograms/tryouts/
http://www.mycoreathletics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=26&Itemid=27
http://www.metroshowcasebaseball.org/
Players are using training facilities, travel teams and the web to get the message out to colleges and pro scouts. In the Lake Tahoe area, there are four scouts that live in the area and scout Northern CA, Nevada, Washington, Oregon and Utah. They affiliate and fund training facilities that are focused on getting players into the system so that they can gather as much long term data as possible on a player and “direct” their progression through all levels of amatuer play. The higher the level of players they turn out, the more recognition that players get.
A friend of ours has a son playing High School baseball. When that season finishes, he plays a month on a team affiliated with his high school (illegal under most state amatuer athletic guidelines, but required by many Coaches), and then plays through October with a club affiliated team. Then trains indoors through the winter, all with the goal of getting exposure to scouts, pro and college.
By the time a player like Tyler Matzek reaches draft eligibilty, he likely has at least six years of statistical data, and many hours of video on file before scouts finally come out to see him live.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
by nvsfg on Feb 2, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Missing Barry — here’s a much more definitive description of what I was talking about. With links even! Thanks nvsfg.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
this is the kind of thing
that I wish would find its way into fan posts more often. I get that no one wants to sound like SeaplaneLawyer, but some posters here actually DO have knowledge of the baseball industry and are often overly shy about sharing it.
Believe it or not, many of us actually do learn more about baseball by reading things like this. Thanks, and rec’d.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Bengie Molina: "I don't understand why they didn't want to commit to another year, with my numbers and my experience and things like that." Brain Sabean: "He's certainly welcomed back with open arms".
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Feb 3, 2010 7:41 AM PST up reply actions
many of us actually do learn more about baseball by reading things like this.
Thanks for rec, and glad I could provide another viewpoint, The modern youth sports environment is an industry at this point. It has taken some of the innocence from the game(s), and includes virtually all organized youth sports. Sadly, as has been demonstrated in Latin America and occurs here more than we know, there are unscrupulous individuals that are focused on their benefit and not the kids dream of playing the game.
As much as we all goof around posting LOL cats and photoshopped Veruca pictures, this is a very good place to learn about baseball. Xanthan, Missing Barry, Roger, and BCVE have really elevated my understanding of MiLB, and newer evaluation metrics.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
there are unscrupulous individuals that are focused on their benefit and not the kids dream of playing the game
Now, I don’t know much about the baseball circuit, but from my basketball experience….man, it’s ridiculous how corrupt something like that can become. Basketball from middle school through college is absurdly corrupted, dominated by weasels and snakes, and largely takes advantage of these kids talents. Can’t say I would ever blame someone like OJ Mayo for trying to get a piece of the pie his talent baked. So the point is I don’t know how far along baseball is, but if it’s not at basketballs level, expect a slow decline to get to that point over time…
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
Last year there was a series of articles in The Washington Post, right when it appeared that Gary Williams’ firing was imminent (before an amazing turnaround in the season), and one of the articles focussed on this recruiting middle man phenomenon, where college coaches are essentially forced to pay these weasels in order to get contact with the players they want to talk with. I think they call it the AAU circuit in this area.
Williams outright refused to deal with these folks for years, and I took it as a pretty devastating critique of the current situation that everybody involved effectively implied that that was a mistake on his part — that he really needed to “play ball” for the good of the school, the team, and the alumni. The AD (no Williams supporter for sure) had a quote that came as close as possible to promoting recruiting violations. it was an eye-opener.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I think they call it the AAU circuit in this area.
Yep, AAU is where most recruiting of big recruits happen (and camps). It’s higher level than high school, and it collects all the talent and puts it into one place instead of as spread out as it is throughout high schools.
But yeah, that’s exactly the type of crap that’s rampant throughout youth basketball. It starts as early as middle school. It really is disgusting how adults will treat these kids for their own benefit.
by Missing Barry on Feb 4, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with this, but what I don’t get is what makes Matzek so much better than other highly ranked high school pitchers from the class like Wheeler and Turner. They were all comparable before the draft, but now Matzek seems to be a consensus top 25 prospect and Wheeler and Turner are in the 50-60 range.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I thought Matzek and Turner were the two guys the scouting community thought highest of prior to last year’s draft, to the degree that any consensus can be said to exist. Both dropped because they were considered hard to impossible signs. Looking at BAs Top 50 lists, Callis see them as virtually indistinguishable (ranking them #22 and #23), John Manuel sees a little separation (Matzek at #24 and Turner at #34) and Will Lingo puts only Matzek in the Top 50.
What the separation is between these guys and Wheeler I can’t say, but I think they are being consistent with their pre-draft reports that there WAS a separation there.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Honestly, I’m still just disappointed they didn’t take Matzek!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I was kinda upset on draft day
Wheeler isn’t bad but he clearly wasn’t the BPA. Matzek was the BPA and it looked bad when he only signed for 600K more than Wheeler
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
It seemed very unlikely to pretty much everyone except Rox Girl that the Rockies could sign Matzek
Several people even called it a pennypinching pick, believe it or not. Since the Rox had picks at 32 and 34, some feared they chose Matzek just so they would have an excuse not to pay three picks in the top 34. It turns out he accepted a contract for half of what he was asking, literally in the last five minutes
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 3, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
The Giants LOL
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
well, he ended up getting only 600K more than Wheeler…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Maybe the Giants team of doctors found a injury risk!
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
That is the current price for a Garko!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
Sabean misplays the market again! Or Sabean sucks at negotiating, again! Or Sabean signs inferior talent, again! I dunno, whatever way you want to put it, it doesn’t look good…
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
meh
I think they’ve earned our trust wrt young pitchers
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Otherwise known as the Alderson Defense!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
feh
Wilson, Cain, Linc, Lowry, Romo, Runz, Sanch. I trust them. Hitters, on the other hand…
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Well I take “young pitchers” to mean teenagers, high schoolers — because there’s a whole lot more projection involved in HS than college pitchers (and particularly college seniors). Cain and Romo are the only high school pitcher draftees on that list and Cain was a consensus pick at that point in the first round — the best high school power pitcher on the board. The next year they took the same guy and he was a spectacular flameout.
Romo (as well as Sanchez and Runzler) is a better example of what they’ve done exceptionally well — find live arms outside of the highly scouted guys and “coach ’em up”, change mechanics etc. to get an elite performance out of the arm. That’s an incredible value and soemthing our front office deserves no end of praise for — but I don’t really know that that’s the same thing as looking at the top 4 or 5 high school guys, for instance, and picking “the guy.” In that case, I really still trust the scouting consensus more.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Cain was a consensus pick at that point in the first round — the best high school power pitcher on the board.
Really? I thought that was Jon Lester. I was surprised when the Giants went with Cain, since Lester was apparently well regarded by the Giants who scouted him heavily in Washington.
I try not to break the rules, but merely to test their elasticity.
I think 2002 was the first draft I followed closely, and Cain was being mentioned in connection to the Giants pretty frequently in the run up to the draft as being the perfect fit — team who likes young power pitchers with a low first round pick and best young power pitcher likely to come off the board in the late first round.
Lester was taken in, what, about the mid-2nd round, right? A few other HS pitchers went off the board in between Cain and Lester, including super flameout Greg Miller. Lester was considered a tough sign and signed the highest bonus outside the 1st round.
Looking at the 2003 Prospect Handbook, it mentions that Lester was a first round talent but still very raw, as he hadn’t yet focussed on pitching (not only playing 1B, but also baseketball), while the comment on Cain is that "the Giants believe he’s on the fast track.
This seems to have been true as Lester took a couple more years getting to the majors. Interestingly they both were in the Sally in 2003 in their first taste of full season ball and Cain pretty clearly outperformed Lester in his half season there, despite being almost a year younger:
Cain K/9 10.9
Lester k/9 6.0
Cain K/BB 3.65
Lester K/BB 1.61
Cain WHIP 1.095
Lester WHIP 1.377
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Talentwise. There’s still the pretty substantial difference that Cain is going to be able to hit the free market at 26, while Lester’s locked up until he’s 30. So you could say from an earning’s potential standpoint, Cain continues to be ahead of Lester.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Well, to be fair, Lester did have that whole lymphona thing that set him back a bit…
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
No doubt.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Lester for Fielder!
Wait, did I do that right?
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
Thanks, ’02 was the first year I started paying attention to the draft, too. I thought I read a couple of articles that said the Giants really liked Lester and had some concerns about Cain since he only became a full-time pitcher like the year before the draft?
Anyway, thanks for the insight. You could be right. In any case, both are standout young pitchers now.
I try not to break the rules, but merely to test their elasticity.
He wasn’t the best pitcher on his HS team going into his senior year, there was a guy there named Conor Lalor who was higher on lists but blew out his elbow his senior year. Cain on the other hand got better and better through his senior year and put himself into 1st round contention.
That said, Cain had moved to Germantown specifically to play for that HS because it was known to produce professional players. In fact, I think he was living with a host family, which I don’t even think was legal for high school athletes back when I was a kid. It was very much a “pro in training” situation.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Many scouts had Matzek rated higher than anyone except Strasburg before the draft
He fell to 11th because of signability concerns, given he said from the beginning that he wanted a “precedent contract.”
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 2, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
How does production matters zero degree? We’re talking about comparing them to A, AA, and AAA prospects here. Production for those guys DOES tell us important stuff, stuff we don’t know about the HS players. That stuff we do know about the other good prospects increases their expected production. I’m not saying talent evaluation shouldn’t play a big role, I’m saying that just having talent evaluation without the additional production information makes the guys who have yet to play as a professional a much worse bet, with lower expected production because of that added uncertainty.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:49 AM PST up reply actions
First, let me say that I’ve enjoyed following your discussion – this is the reason I read this site (well, that and Grant’s promise to pay me monthly).
In response to Missing Barry: I don’t see how you can say that
having talent evaluation without the additional production information makes the guys who have yet to play as a professional a much worse bet
I wouldn’t say they are a worse bet, just a more wildly fluctuating bet. As someone said above, both the ceiling and the floor are greater with the unknown HS player. So the decision is whether or not that greater fluctuation is worth living with after you’ve drafted him. In Matzek’s case, I’d live with the fluctuation.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
I think it does make them a worse bet, though, on the basis that most prospects don’t pan out, so to a degree some of those guys get weeded out once you start looking at production. If you think about a given years talent pool – in a couple of years, it’s still going to produce the same amount of talent as it was going to initially, but it will have dropped some of the guys who aren’t going to make it, you know? So that makes the guys that are left a better bet.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
MB-
Taking your point to an absurb conclusion, we could agree that it would be much safer to draft only college players, since they’ve had approx. 3 years to sort themselves out and more accurately show their true talent level. But I assume you wouldn’t actually implement this as a plan.
So, how do you, personally, weight the greater likelihood/knowledge of college players versus the “get ‘em before everybody else knows they’re good” potential of HS players? This, I think, would be an excellent discussion all by itself.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
Hmmm, I dunno, I mean, as you point out, only drafting college players is going to miss out on the guys that come out of HS, and it’s a pretty safe assumption to say a lot of those HS guys are very talented prospects, whereas in my example I was just looking at a whole draft class which includes both and shouldn’t have this bias. Anyways, I think data like this is very informative for deciding how much weight to put in college vs. high school.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
That’s already baked into the cake. When Keith Law or whoever says that Matzek is the 22nd best prospect, he’s saying that his talent is such that even though he has a long road ahead of him, he’s still more valuable than almost everyone ahead of him. Law may be wrong, but he’s pretty close to the scouting consensus. Are you going to argue that it’s impossible for a player to be ranked that highly if he hasn’t yet had the chance to strike out 17th-round draft picks in low-A?
Nah, I never said impossible, as we’ve been discussing, it just seems to me like there should be more prospects we can have confidence in above him, between both their talent and their production.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
MB, did you see nvsfg’s links above. His comment that these topshelf kids have years of statistical data and hours of video footage behind their reports is a much more informative version of what I was trying to say.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
It's all in the name
“Madison Bumgarner” is clearly superior to “Joe Martinez.” I mean, it’s so obvious.
Todos somos Gigantes
More like Jesse Floppert, amirite!?
by AndOnTheDrums... on Feb 2, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
What sorta value are the intangibles
like murdering people in night clubs?
Bruce Bochy: Leave him alone, he's the Manager Man and his BORK is much worse than his bite.
Ray Lewis has intangibles.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
OJ clearly has intangibles
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 2, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions
I only voted for maybe the top 7 in the MCC community prospect list. And my only secret sauce was to pick the player with the highest upside. And by upside I mean how many times MCC have referenced the player as the second coming. I really don’t care how close a mediocre prospect is to the majors.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
I voted for like the top two, and I’m pretty sure that my votes in those polls messed it up for everyone.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
Millions of Venezuelans drop everything when their two premier teams go up against each other as they are in the country’s championship series.
Which explains how Pablo got down there.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Feb 2, 2010 7:25 AM PST reply actions
Operation Panda?
What happened to the big training camp news that Pablo was going to be in amazing shape? If he is down there scarfing down beans then he got some splainin to do.
Where has Rusty gone..........bring him out of the outfield closet!
Looks about the same to me
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
I tend to be heavily influenced by the scouting reports about the players. Lets be honest, most of us haven’t seen these kids, and can really only base our judgments on the STATS and what scouts say (age too).
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Feb 2, 2010 7:29 AM PST reply actions
most of us haven’t seen these kids
And even if we had, we wouldn’t know the first thing about what we’re talking about…
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 7:45 AM PST up reply actions
I try to get as much information as possible from scouts, but I don’t like just going with their rankings. If they rank a Scott Podsednik type over a Nick Swisher type, is it because of something they know about them that I don’t, or just becausde they think Podsednik is a better player than Swisher?
I was promised lasagna.
But when you do see them...
You tend to stick with that impression forever. Even if you don’t have a scouting bone, you’ve been watching baseball enough to go with your ‘feeling.’ right or wrong.
I firmly believe Matt Downs will be a MLB player and that Chris Dominguez won’t amount to nuthin’
my secret sauce… defer to people with far more information than me. after that, i’ll look at age compared to the league they’re in, and the numbers that resulted in. if that doesn’t work, i go with the guy who’s name i most want to hear said over the stadium loudspeakers… Sharlon Schoop, anyone?
Petey and Fresh always dunking on Spartans,
Biscuits in baskets from Heatley and Thornton,
Bam-Bam and Gore on the way to some rings,
These are a few of my favorite things.
Do you prefer Tim Lincecum’s or Geno Espinelli’s secret sauce?
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Feb 2, 2010 7:46 AM PST up reply actions
A crackhead by my old apartment in Boston used to say “dip it in the soy sauce” every time an asian woman walked by.
by ktice on Feb 2, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I make my secret sauce with pretty much the same ingredients I use to make my gravy.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
mayo?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Rotten Sauce
What they don’t want to tell you and can’t is that in the end it is just a guessing game anyway and part of the job is to take chances on unknown quantities. It’s all a gamble and like any good gambler, you just hope to be right more than 50% of the time and make some money.
When the sauce goes rotten…….you bring in older overpriced veterans.
Where has Rusty gone..........bring him out of the outfield closet!
This was my thought as well
Secret sauce was the result of rosterbation.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
Seminal Sauce?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Feb 2, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
Grant
In general I agree with your points above. Regarding high ceilings vs. low ceilings, though, how do you make the ratings decisions between guys like Craig Whitaker and Henry Sosa versus Ryan Rohlinger and Matt Downs?
Perhaps those weren’t the best examples to use, but I’m trying to see how you’d differentiate between “formerly high-ceiling guys who still haven’t really put it together” and “formerly low ceiling guys who keep hitting/pitching as they move up the ladder.”
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
I would put the latter guys higher, personally. I would say the more road blocks that come up between a high-ceiling guy and his “high ceiling”, the less likely he is to ever achieve it (or even to ever be a major leaguer).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
True, but then more high ceiling guys (like Jose Casilla and Zack Wheeler and Edwin Concepcion) come along and leap frog those low ceiling guys. Just another example of the man keeping those low ceiling guys down.
My secret sauce is really almost exactly the same as Grants. So I bow to his expertise.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I knew I was forgetting somebody.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I heavily discount Whitaker and Sosa (the former much more than the latter). They aren’t likely to be impact players, so they’re more in that utility, fifth-starter/sixth-inning-reliever category.
But I really don’t give a lot of credit to Rohlinger-types. You want a Rohlinger? I can get you a … you get the point.
My secret sauce is that I dramatically overvalue every one of my team’s prospects, until said prospect has been exposed as a marginal utility infielder at best, at which time I take to the internet and post comments that indicate I never liked the guy in the first place.
/Lance Niekro
"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."
My Secret Sauce...
I evaluate guys based on what I have seen in person. I have been living in Brooklyn for the last 7 years, so seeing a San Jose Giants game or Spring Training Game is nowhere as frequent for me as it used to be. But I’ve made some good calls over the years. I used to LOVE watching Doug Mirabelli catch (defensively) and when ever he got a hold of one he hit it a mile. Or course he was not a very good hitter.
I saw Buster play in Spring Training last year and was totally impressed. I think he’s ready, and so do you guys.
I am very glad we traded Alderson! I saw him last year and I KNOW he’s going to blow out his arm soon. I’ll eat my words if I’m wrong on this one.
In general I value talent and production much much higher than size and ceiling. That’s probably because A) I feel I was slighted as a player because of my size. and B) It’s a better gamble and sometimes a cheaper one.
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you
by milesntrane on Feb 2, 2010 10:11 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Excellent
Looking forward to your list. As I remember, they have been very good in the past.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Ranking prospects is like trying to understand this:
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
It’s a red ‘x’ in a box. I shall now name Kevin Frandsen the second best prospect in baseball. Only behind John Bowker.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Ah man. I wish you could see it
Try this:
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Visit CreepyGif.com to view this GIF animation.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
GOD DAMN IT
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
by GiantPain on Feb 2, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Wow
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
That is a creepy gif
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Feb 2, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
The real question is where Grant sides in the McBryde-Gloor-King Debate
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Thanks for sharing a year of your great career with the Giants and their fans.
Throw me the idol!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
OT -- Neyer hates us
Jem (Westcheter)
What a waste of a stellar pitching staff in SF, especially with Bum-G on the rise, don?t you think? Not only is the offense once again vastly sub-par, but their defense got worse with Molina still there, Huff and Panda at the corners, Renteria at SS and Winn gone.
Rob Neyer
(12:13 PM)
Yeah. Without Posey there’s almost no hope for a real improvement in the hitting, and I don’t think the pitching can make up for it. The Giants look like a fourth-place team and might finish last.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I agree with him and I don’t hate the Giants.
I try not to break the rules, but merely to test their elasticity.
Yeah, I really don’t disagree with him. However, I do not think they will finish last.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
I feel fairly confident there’s no way they’ll finish last.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
if they’re going to finish 2nd and out of the playoffs, i’d prefer them to finish last and (hopefully) be rid of things evil once and for all.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
And a better draft pick.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
This is totally correct. Either playoffs, or new GM and kick-ass draft pick in 2011.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Aren’t Sabes & Bochy signed through 2011? As long as the team is decent in odd-numbered years, they’ll be fine.
I don’t think so. I think Neukom gave them both two year deals specifically so he could fire them after THIS season if he wanted to.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Feb 2, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
When was the last time the Giants have fired a GM or manager?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
My memory is Rog was allowed to gracefully “retire” to his ranch with only a little push.
Apropos of nothing, I was controversially named after Roger Craig (Craig being my middle name). Controversially, of course, as Craig was a Dodger pitcher when I was born. I’ve never quite forgiven my dad. For his part, he says he wasn’t naming me “after” Craig really, it’s just that once they’d decided to name me Roger he did like the way those two names sounded together.
Still, ewww.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Your dad was merely prescient. Good job, dad!
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
Sure it looks good now, but it was tough back in the 60s when he was losing 20 games a year!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Really? You’re really going to tempt the tommy john gods like that?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
they have more chance of finishing last
than they do of finishing first
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
I haven’t followed anything Padres related, but based on last year and what the Dodgers have done, it seems like the Dodgers are less good than the Padres are bad, so I dunno about that….
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
assumptions:
- Giants are an 83ish win team.
- Giants are the 3rd best team in the division, and roughly tied with the D-backs
- They are just as likely to win 93 as they are to win 73 (wins are normally distributed about 83)
- Padres are as much worse than the Giants as the Giants are than the Dodgers (I would guess about 5-6 wins)
In a 3 team division then (Pods, Giants, Dodgers), the Giants (in the above model) would have exactly the same chance of finishing last as finishing first.
HOWEVER, there are 2 other teams, one of whom is better (Rockies), the other which is similarly mediocre. There are fewer teams to pass “going down” than going up, so they are more likely to finish last than first.
QED
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
FWIW (i.e, not much)
Pecota (adjusted) predicts:
D-backs (86 wins)
Rockies
Dodgers
Giants (81 wins)
(gap)
Padres (71 wins)
CHONE predicts
Dodgers
Padres (!)
D-backs
Rockies
Giants
But before you panic, the spread is only 5 wins between the top and bottom of the division (82 vs 77).
Also, I should say while I stand by my statement that the Giants are closer to last than first… I think it’s actually quite close.
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
Many projection systems had the Padres 3rd last year and over .500
which was obviously completely ill-informed
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 3, 2010 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
Obviously
the variance on all predictions or projections of seasonal wins is very high.
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
Naturally
but predicting a team to be over .500 whose roster was completely gutted to the point of having only three proven players is just silly.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 3, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
Neyer hates the Giants because how could you love anything Brian Sabean does?
I remember I traded emails with Neyer when we signed Zito…He hit the nail right on the head on that one…I meekly tried to defend our $126 million man and he tore it apart and pretty much predicted everything that has happened…
Neyer is right…We stink, again….Last? We are better than the Madres, but last season’s fairy tale is not likely to be replicated….
by Sgt. Dingleberry on Feb 2, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Neyer is really good at predicting standings. Here's what he did last year!
East champ: Mets
Central champ: Cubs
West champ: Dodgers
Wild card: Diamondbacks
Champion: Cubs
East champ: Yankees
Central champ: Indians
West champ: A’s
Wild card: Red Sox
Champion: Yankees
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
by heimy25 on Feb 2, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL. 4 for 9 is pretty good!
We’re going to finish 3rd in the division again. There’s no way the Dbags and the Pads overtake us
omg Jim Caple
East champ: Mets
Central champ: Cubs
West champ: Giants
Wild card: Reds
Champion: Mets
AWARDS
MVP: David Wright
Cy Young: Randy Johnson
Rookie of year: Jordan Schafer
OTHER
Breakout player: Pablo Sandoval
Underrated player: Adrian Gonzalez
Dark-horse team: Giants
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Caple’s a Giants fan.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
That’s what she said.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Too easy...
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Feb 2, 2010 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
“Bum-G”?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
For what it’s worth Neyer was firmly on the Giants bandwagon last year, but then he’s a Royals fan so grain of salt and all that.
by Orwell D. Catt on Feb 2, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Well, he’s a Royals fan, but he’s pretty objective when it comes to ripping the Royals for their poor management…
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
This is marginally more pessimistic than I am. But let’s say Neyer’s right and the Giants once again field the NL’s worst offense. Would spending $24M to “improve the offense” as Sabean did, and completely failing, be enough to get him fired. I don’t think so. They’ll probably just fire another hitting coach.
don't rank, grade
Otherwise you will not know the difference between Buster Posey and Calvin Murray.
Ranking Prospects
Wasn’t that a ska band back in the late ’90s?
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 2, 2010 11:07 AM PST reply actions
Rankin’ Pickle?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Feb 2, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skankin’_Pickle
Find the McC member!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
didn't we have a Less Than Jake
as well as a Mike Park
I saw Skankin’ Pickle back in the day once or twice.
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
Is it Eugene?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
He does that well enough on his own.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Feb 2, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
So you are talking about Eugene, then???
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 6:11 PM PST up reply actions
Key to evaluation: Defer to Judy Steffes
The #1 factor is age relative to league. The fact is, most major league talents (i.e. above average, major league talent) came up through the minors at or below each level’s average age and reached the majors around 22-24 (at the latest).
Second, I look at ceiling and weigh it more than proximity to the majors. Jim Callis had a great line in one of his chats a few years ago – he made the point that minor league systems exist to find good players for their parent teams, not replacement level players (which are, by definition, easily replaceable – unless you’re parent team is the Giants and the position in question is 1B). Ryan Rohlinger and Kevin Frandsen have some value, especially at the league minimum salary – just not that much.
Position scarcity is important – SS, C & Starting pitching are much more valuable than DH, 1B & relievers.
Scouting reports are important to consider, as are stats. Probably the most important single stat, if I could only look at one, for both pitchers and hitters, is K/BB ratio.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
The police will be contacting you shortly.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Indeed it is awesome.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 2, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Irrationality.
"Career potential: situational lefty." Situation: Ragnarok, bases loaded, Odin at the plate. You know who's getting the call.
-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler
Why do we rank prospects, anyways?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
'The longer I do this the smarter I get' --Brian Sabean
Because the offseason is long and cold.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
it's like Pokemons
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Pablo Sandoval happily eats anything.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Feb 2, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Pablo Sandoval used Double Hit. Hit (5) times.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
Oh! I just got it. Hehe.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Thomas Neal apparently had a fateful encounter at level 5.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Buster Posey
Nature: Lonely
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
/Lonely Matt Cain is Lonely pic
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 2, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
Did the spambot inform you?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 2, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
It’s pink and it’s awful.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
TWHS
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 2, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
Nah.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
More OT: Old dudes playing golf and talking Giants
http://www.napavalleyregister.com/sports/article_41b49b86-0fc0-11df-b461-001cc4c03286.html
"How much better we got is a real question," Flemming said before the tournament began. "I think even the Giants are curious about that. I think they feel good about the moves they made, but I think they also are realistic knowing that they didn’t get Albert Pujols in here.
"They’re counting on some guys to be healthy and a couple of guys to have bounce-back seasons. And if those things happen, I think they’ll be significantly better."
Wotus said he’s looking forward to the upcoming season more so than he has in many years.
"I think this is the strongest club going into spring training that we’ve had in a while," he said. "Everybody’s excited about the additions that we’ve made. We’ve improved the ball club — now it’s a matter of going out and doing it.
"Sandoval is the most exciting player they’ve had since Willie Mays, in my opinion," said Bressoud, a former shortstop, who played for the New York Giants, San Francisco Giants, Boston Red Sox, New York Mets and St. Louis Cardinals from 1956 through 1967.
"Sandoval is absolutely extraordinary. I’d go pay to watch him play. I like him very much."
"They have a fabulous pitching staff," said Bressoud. "You start with that and you can go anywhere you want. They’re going to be a wonderful ball club with regard to that."
I try not to break the rules, but merely to test their elasticity.
That last quote
I thought it said “Sandoval is the most exciting shortstop they’ve had since Willie Mays.” and was like WTF?
“Sandoval is the most exciting player they’ve had since Willie Mays, in my opinion,”
Yeah, that Bonds guy sucked ass.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
I can’t think of one good thing that guy ever did in his career.
I try not to break the rules, but merely to test their elasticity.
Dude was a statue in LF.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I can’t even count the number of times Marvin Benard saved his ass by hustling over from center to make what would have been a routine play for any other left fielder in the league.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
lol urban chat
[Comment From JonJon: ]
What are the odds of the Giants moving Panda to first, B Posey to third, and signing Bengie for a couple more years in 2011? Panda is only getting bigger (to the size of an actual panda) and presumably less mobile as he gets older so 1B for him only makes sense for the future, right?
Tuesday February 2, 2010 12:53 Jon
12:55
CSN Mychael Urban:
I don’t see Bengie’s big body holding up for three more years (including this year). His bat’s already started to slow down a little. But I do think Sandoval’s future is at first base.
Tuesday February 2, 2010 12:55 CSN Mychael Urban
FREE BUSTER POSEY
Tony Gwynn did ok with his big body
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
Pedro Sandoval
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Is he wearing his Venezuelan team’s jersey? I thought it was a soccer player or something since I didn’t recognize the uni.
I think that’s their BP jersey.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Super reply fail.
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
by stealth snail on Feb 2, 2010 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
Urban answered my question
Second in a week about F-Sanchez:
[Comment From GP: ]
Freddy Sanchez hasn’t hit .300 since 07 and hasn’t had an OBP over .350 since 06. He also hasn’t had 10 HRs since 07. Why must you insist on these crazy projections?
CSN Mychael Urban:
Because, as you’ve already deduced, I’m crazy. Let it go, Daniel-San. It’s baseball. It’s debateable. It’s opinions. It’s supposed to be FUN!
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Urban it’s your job. Making predictions is your job. Some people like to be good at their jobs even if their jobs are “fun”. I
‘d love to see what would happen if Urban asked Barry Zito about a poor performance and he answered " Come on, Urban. It’s baseball it’s supposed to be fun!."
Except it’s not his job. His job is to generate hits for a webpage, or get people to listen to the radio, or whatever other medium his BS takes. These guys aren’t really baseball analysts, they’re pundits trying to generate interest.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
He’s entitled to his opinion, and we are entitled to make fun of it. The beauty of the 1st amendment.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
The beauty of the 2nd amendment: he’s entitled to his opinion, and we’re entitled to form a militia to defend ourselves against it.
"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."
The beauty of the third amendment: you’re entitled to form a militia to defend yourselves against his opinions, but I’m entitled to tell you to stay the hell out of my house.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
The beauty of the fourth amendment. His opinion can’t conduct an unreasonable search and seizure of my home.
Eh, fuck it, you guys don’t really have the right to anything – I can do whatever the hell I want, I just have to deal with the consequences…
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
Or, you could pin them on somebody else.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
On the other hand, you love Guillermo.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
he is this years Howry
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
Only, not as good
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
he could be just as bad, give’m a chance
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
Howry was only bad in the bottom of the 9th against rookies
Mota is just bad
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Dodger fan here
We signed Russ Ortiz. There’s a pair to draw to.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man
who's this Matzo kid?
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
does he pee chicken soup?
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 8:14 PM PST up reply actions
Shift+A
UPPPPPSSSIDDDEEEEE AND TOOOLLLSSSSSS
(and performance… age relative to league…)
Or just kind of thinking what their maximum true-talent level could be in terms of WAR, then thinking the probability that they’ll reach that level.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
THREE DEE
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Thank you?
I’m confused, and now I have epilepsy.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
That’s pretty much what it’s like talking to Lars.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
something’s wrong with my glasses
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
Now I don’t want to meet Lars. I don’t want to have seizures. Seizures are bad.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
are they contagious?
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
/nevermind
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not going to lie. This is freaking me out.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 6:12 PM PST up reply actions
This won't help
WalrusMan is in that alligator outfit.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Explains the pelvic waggling.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Feb 2, 2010 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
BOOOO
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
did anyone ever nail that Evange chick? or has she disappeared?
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 5:54 PM PST up reply actions
oops, nail—that’s probably misogynist douche material
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
sorry, the only acronym I know is TWSS
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 7:34 PM PST up reply actions
In Real Life
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Indy Racing League
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
Enjoy Two and a Half Men!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
LOL, i dont even watch that show, you’re pretty funny though… i’m more of a NCIS, Cold Case, CSI… I do like NBC though
Do they still make new episodes of without a trace
I just got into that show and its pretty good…NBC on Thursday nights is good if you like comedy
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
not sure they do… i used to be a fan of Without a trace… and definitely Thursday night is money for NBC
Yeah WOAT is pretty good
Although the problem I have with the show is the 2 young male detectives are really similar
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Lol. Only time I watch CBS is for March Madness and football. the CSIs, the mentalist, cold case, etc. play to, i’ll put it nicely, a different demographic
FUCK OFF PUNK!
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
that show played out long ago
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
is the narrator a scientist? cuz he sounds like a real scientist.
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
The narrator is the guy who had the Hot Pocket thrown at him.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
oh, I thought the hot pocket was the girl
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
I stopped watching after the hobbit died. I just watched the catch-up special and boy have i missed a whole lotta whoopie.
JUST A CITY BOY
He’s back! Sort of.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
My secret sauce?
A heaping helping of opinionated arrogance and the forceful parroting of people paid to have better secret sauces.
Although this thread has already about 300 comments, so I’m sure my response is no longer relevant to the direction the discussion has taken.
THATS WEAKSAUCE BRO (phrase borrowed from an angry mccoven)
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 2, 2010 8:19 PM PST up reply actions
The Sauce depends on who you're cooking for.
If you’re ranking for your team that you know and love, there has to be a fudge factor for what your team needs. Call it the Wishful Coefficient.
For the Giants, any player with the ability to hit 30 HRs and/or walk 80 times automatically get his ranking bumped up. Likewise, in a pitching starved organization a guy with a healthy arm and/or the ability to miss bats will be get the bump.
OT
KNBR has a new weekend host during baseball season. For obvious reasons, Mychael Urban is out and former A’s pre and post-game host, Marty Lurie, is in.
"meh"
holy toledo; Lurie is terrific!
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Feb 3, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
That wasn’t all that obvious.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
What I do...
Alright, I’ll throw this one out here…the way we try to do it for SFDugout.
To be honest, we use a scoring system. I know a lot of people have their own ways, but when doing a huge list, the scoring system works well for us. We have scoring for Potential, which is relatively standardized across the board, and also a ‘Likelihood’ score (which isn’t worth as much) to address that issue. We mix in a lot of score: Performance and experience are major scoring factors; health, level, age, and tools all are lesser factors.
No system is perfect, and there are always quibbles, but I like the list we come up with most of the time.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
That sounds pretty good.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Feb 3, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
Incidentally
Kevin’s really gotta be wincing at having that whole Wilson/Sadler comparison dredged up. Man, time can make smart people look dumb.
/makes note to never to set any opinions down in writing.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I’d be interested to know which kinds of players are shared around the way Cesium atoms share their electrons.
Hydrogen ain’t got nothin’ on them bad boys.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
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