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The difference between an intelligent GM... and Sabean


http://ussmariner.com/2010/02/01/ms-sign-garko/

Garko projection from Marcel: .272/.345/.428
Huff projection from Marcel: .263/.327/.438

$550K. While we are paying $3M for an older, worse hitting, worse fielding player. Awesome. 

Seriously, offering Garko $1M wouldn't have been a good idea at all. He might not have considered it.

I'm curious how fans of teams with good GM's live. Do they slap their foreheads in perpetuity? Do they have faith in the their GM's decision making abilities, as opposed to thinking that we went off on another bender?


This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Don’t you get it. Nobody wants to play for the Giants. Oh sure, if you’re a prestigious team like the Mariners (who’ve made the playoffs 0 of the last 8 seasons!), and you play in an actual pitchers park, hitters will obviously flock to your team and you’ll have your choice of them all, but when you’re the Giants and those gosh darned hitters have to actually come to your stadium and play in a park that helps hitters, well golly gee you better pay them a lot of money for that. No hitter would ever want to subject themselves to that kind of environment. Don’t you see? It’s never Brian’s fault.

*Heavy dose of sarcasm

by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 11:07 AM PST reply actions  

Enjoy your free Scott Barnes, Cleveland...

Shapiro did laugh at you Sabes, behind your back

Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard

by SoFa King Mike on Feb 1, 2010 11:09 AM PST reply actions  

Barnes would only have been free if the Indians re-signed Garko. They still lost a player; if anything, the Mariners got Garko for free.

by quincy0191 on Feb 1, 2010 3:32 PM PST up reply actions  

When you put it that way, I feel much better about the deal.

Wait. No I don’t.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 2, 2010 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Using the power of my mind, I shall turn this into a fanshot posted by marcello.

"Career potential: situational lefty." Situation: Ragnarok, bases loaded, Odin at the plate. You know who's getting the call.

-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler

by Alex_Lewis on Feb 1, 2010 11:12 AM PST reply actions  

Yes, but can you kill me with your brain?

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Feb 1, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

I think it’s a One Tree Hill reference.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Feb 1, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I don’t see what that has to do with U2.

I don't know about that, to the groin.

by howtheyscored on Feb 1, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes on the firefly

I am that kind of dork

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Feb 1, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Ever notice how like Dumb GMs eat all like this *pantomimes sloppy eating
But like smart GMs all eat like this *pantomimes mannerly eating

Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?

by TexasRanger on Feb 1, 2010 11:18 AM PST reply actions  

DON’T LOOK AT ME!!!

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Feb 1, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Anyone want to hold hands with a black millionaire?

Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?

by TexasRanger on Feb 1, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Sabean: Ah ha ha, it’s true, it’s true! We’re so sloppy!

go rowand

by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 4, 2010 2:29 AM PST up reply actions  

I have a feeling that Huff runs and fields better than Garko.

 Not familiar with either of them as they are AL lifers.

My career path, have you seen it?

by say hey nation on Feb 1, 2010 11:34 AM PST reply actions  

I would assume this too, Huff probably is a better and more polished 1st baseman… also quite possibly a more powerful hitter

by PiKAgiant on Feb 1, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

He's a GIANT!

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Feb 1, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t think Huff fields better than anyone.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 1, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Er, what about him? He’s a very, very good fielder?

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Feb 1, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Very good infielder indeed… i’ve been adamant about him playing 1st for a while… But hey i’m damn chill with Huff playing and starting 1st…

by PiKAgiant on Feb 1, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you misread my comment.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 1, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I think so as well.

I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory

by Natto on Feb 1, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

And I think so, too!

….

I just wanted to feel like I belong.

by Wazl on Feb 1, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

WHAT!?!?!?!? i screwed up?? shit, ok, sorry

by PiKAgiant on Feb 1, 2010 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Tomayto / Tomahto

I still haven’t heard a convincing argument that any of these projections are so well refined and consistently accurate enough (especially Marcel) to boil my blood over which marginal player the Giants should have gone with… And yes, $3M is still a bargain for corner infielders (apparently, they’ll make it all back on the Snuggie promotion).

by KrazyKrabMeat on Feb 1, 2010 11:46 AM PST reply actions  

I still haven’t heard a convincing argument that any of these projections are so well refined and consistently accurate enough (especially Marcel) to boil my blood over which marginal player the Giants should have gone with

Marcel isn’t made to be accurate. It’s made to be simple. I also hate this attitude because I think it completely and utterly misses the point on what makes projections useful. We have all this information about players, since we record what they actually do in the past. Based on that performance, what are they going to do in the future? Well, we have a huge database of players that tell us, on average, what players will do given their past performance. It understands aging curves. It understands regression to the mean. It understands weighting more recent years more strongly than past years. It understands factors that are repeatable and factors that are probably flukes. Every bit of information you can get out of the stats, it understands. How? Because it has a huge historical database and it sees what actually happens to players, and uses that information to project forward. It’s not meant to get the projection right – it’s meant to give you an average of what real players actually do, which at its core, is what anyone who’s trying to figure out how an individual or team is going to perform does. Only the projections systems know better than us, because they have way more information, can process it in way more advanced ways than us, and do so in objective ways. Will it get an individual right? No chance – the probablity of correctly predicting an individual data point of a continuous distribution is a limit = 0 as n goes to infinite. On average, though, it will give us a much better prediction than we could get by looking at the data ourselves, and if you make enough decisions, on average you’re going to be right and your results will improve.

And yes, $3M is still a bargain for corner infielders

Opportunity cost. Marginal cost of a win. Huff makes me angry!

by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not knocking projections, themselves,

but how they are used, and overly valued, as short-hand evidence when evaluating personnel, and the decisions involving
them.

You did a nice job of explaining what projections can tell us, and a near-absolute example of what they cannot tell us. I’m with you all the way up to your conclusion that these slash-line projections are enough to fuss over because not only are they JUST PROJECTIONS, but they are MARCEL PROJECTIONS (wank wank).

Marcel isn’t made to be accurate. It’s made to be simple.

As for who, in this next year, has more potential to be an impact on the offense, there are a few arguments to be made one way or the other, but my point was that the “evidence” (projected differences) and the relative pay of an in-house-under-team-control option vs. bargain FA ($3M for corner infielder) is well within the margin to not get the boxers in a twist.

by KrazyKrabMeat on Feb 1, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions  

within the margin to not get the boxers in a twist

For me it’s about the collective group of signing – it’s all the same thing. Old, washed up veteran who is probably worth his contract if he’s playing over replacement player, but he’s actually playing instead of an above replacement player (Ishikawa, for instance), or even a legitimate starter (Lewis), and on the collective whole we ended up spending an amount of money that could have gotten us a real upgrade, instead of a bunch of marginal ones that add up to much less than said “real upgrade”…

So that’s why my boxers are in a twist about. ;)

by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 2:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Well said

You can twist my boxers anytime. And yes, I did mean that in a dirty way.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 2, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Bargain?
And yes, $3M is still a bargain for corner infielders

It’s not a bargain to pay $3M to get a player (Huff) who is worse than the one (Ishikawa) that you’re paying $450k. I mean, I guess $3M would be a bargain for a good corner infielder, but Aubrey Huff is not that.

by taliesin on Feb 1, 2010 1:03 PM PST up reply actions  

How about a decent corner infielder?

What is the minimum you expect for $3M?
(I am very curious to see answers to this one)

by KrazyKrabMeat on Feb 1, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

You can't get much for $3M

So you usually shouldn’t try. One WAR costs $4-5M in free agency, so $3M normally won’t buy an average player. For $3M you’re either getting a gritty veteran who’s barely over replacement (if you’re lucky; someone like Rich Aurilia the last two seasons), or a guy who might be very good but who has serious question marks, probably because he’s coming off a significant injury (somebody like Carlos Delgado this year, for example). A good GM should almost never sign the first type of player unless no plausible in-house option is at hand. The second type is high-risk/high-reward and might sometimes be justified.

In short, Aubrey Huff is exactly the sort of player you’d expect to get for $3M. The problem is that the $3M should not even be expected to produce much better than slightly above replacement-level performance, so it’s essentially wasted. The charitable view would be that Huff is a lottery ticket, probably worthless but holding some chance of a big payoff if he recaptures that 2008 magic.

by taliesin on Feb 1, 2010 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

or,

to beg the question and expound further on your charitable view:

Sabes may (and by “may” I think I really mean “absolutely”) sees Huff as the second type of low-cost FA that you mentioned above, the high-risk/high-reward variety… and with Ishi still around, he not only has a little insurance on his lotto ticket for only $3.45M total, but has the liability divided by two players. Could either or both give the Giants $3.45M worth of offense?

It may very well be that the $3M + opportunity cost is essentially wasted on the Huff hope, but I’m not ready to sharpen my pitchfork because projections give them similar lines (or worse with Ishi > Huff).

by KrazyKrabMeat on Feb 1, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Can we at least wait and see on Huff...

Maybe he wasn’t the most desirable signing, but lets see if he’s the Huff from last year or two years ago. Its not like he’s too old to not conceivably return to the form that’s made him a decent middle of the order hitter throughout his career. If he sucks, so be it – then you can go with Ishikawa, or someone else after a few months (maybe Brett Pill is tearing it up at AAA, who knows), and he’s just another in the long line of post Snow flotsam that’s littered first base for this team in recent years. But if he does return to his status as a decent slugger, then it wasn’t a bad deal for the Giants. And its not like there were many better choices out there that wanted to play for this team, so lets hope for the best.

by crazedcrustacean on Feb 1, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I like judging the process, and the process sucks. Looking at results in hindsight is a poor way to judge how “the process” will perform in the future.

by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

But good processes tend to yield good results more often than bad processes...

Which is why people like to look at process

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 1, 2010 9:38 PM PST up reply actions  

You’re missing the point entirely. We cannot know the results ahead of time. We can have a good process that gives us a higher chance of good results, though, which is exactly what we should be doing – maximizing our chances at good results, and the only way you can do that is by putting the best possible process in place. This is exactly what you have yet to acknowledge – that we cannot know the future, and all we can do is play the odds to the best of our ability.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:30 AM PST up reply actions  

On The Contrary You Fail To Acknowledge The Value Of Good Scouting

Statistical Analysis has limits in that it is very much sample size dependent. In baseball one rarely has enough time to wait on sufficient sample sizes so one must use other means to make decisions quick enough to stay competitive.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

The value of good scouting is dependent on probability and sample size, too, though. You can’t just see exactly how good a guy is by watching him play once. It takes a lot more than that, and even after seeing him see enough times you can’t exactly predict future production, or even know exactly what the players “true talent level” is.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

you do have a point, but a talented scout can tell a lot more from one game than you can glean statistically. A player could have a great swing, crush 4 balls and go 0-4 with a GIDP, but a scout can see that the swing is there.

by tyrannoman on Feb 3, 2010 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t disagree with that, though it still takes more than one game to see if the swing is there. Even the best players look foolish in a couple of at-bats, and the worst have nice at bats at times. Plus, all you can really see are skills, so there’s always the question of how does that translate into production? Lotta probability involved in that….Anyways, I have some other points elsewhere in the thread, not gonna repeat them here, don’t need parallel conversations going on. :)

by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I make the off-season a game

Especially when being a Giants fan.

I watch teams go out and sign former Giants, and then I tell them how bad of a player it is they really got.

When the Yankees signed Winn, they thought they got a good player, but when I showed them the splits for hitting right handed…they got sad.

by Owner on Feb 1, 2010 1:33 PM PST reply actions  

OK

I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory

by Natto on Feb 1, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

But the Yanks are smarter than the Giants. Winn probably won’t bat right-handed for them.

by taliesin on Feb 1, 2010 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

ding ding ding winner winner chicken dinner!

by Fresburg on Feb 1, 2010 4:30 PM PST up reply actions  

With two of the Yankees’ starters being Gardner and Granderson, I’d say Winn is guaranteed to get plenty of at-bats right-handed — at which point we’ll learn that his crappy performance against lefties in 2009 was indeed a fluke.

by Evan on Feb 1, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't forget Swisher

Gardner and Winn will probably platoon

Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010

by Gobroks on Feb 1, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

It wasn't a fluke

He may bounce back. Maybe he was injured, or maybe he’ll get new contacts or lasik or something. But 4 walks and 3 extra-base hits (just 19 total hits) in 125 PAs is not a fluke. That’s a guy who legitimately sucks.

There are two aspects to small sample size in baseball, and they tend to get conflated for the precise reason that it really is difficult to distinguish them, at least for an outside observer. One is actual luck; for the same reason if I try long enough I can surely toss a coin and get heads five times in a row, a .300 hitter can go 0-10 over some period strictly by chance. But there’s a second aspect: a player’s ability — his “true” chance of success — can also fluctuate because of injury or a newborn child or whatever. Winn’s 2009 as a RHH can not be explained by the first one; it wasn’t bad luck (or, to be precise, it’s extremely unlikely that it was random). It could be the second one, however; he might have sucked for some reason that will be corrected.

For his sake I hope he does bounce back. It would be pretty sad if he finally played for a playoff team but then got DFA’d before the end of the year.

by taliesin on Feb 1, 2010 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Some of his sucktitude probably wasn’t a fluke. Especially the lack of power. Buy are you seriously expecting him to post anything that resembles a .178 BABIP from the right side next year? Because of 125 PA’s, even though BABIP fluctuates wildly and is almost useless in 125 PA’s?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 2, 2010 3:07 AM PST up reply actions  

The utter lack of power suggests that the BABIP isn’t that big of a fluke.

by taliesin on Feb 2, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Because fast ground ball hitters with no power tend to post BABIP’s around .180?

I can’t think of any comparable player with a BABIP under .290. And there isn’t any player with a BABIP under in the .260 entire majors – anyone close is slow and an extreme fly ball hitter. So basically even if you think that he turned into the worst BABIPer in the league, and I really don’t think that’s reasonable, you’d still expect him to add about 80 points of BABIP, which really is a huge deal.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 2, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions  

I do expect his BABIP to improve, but as a RHH I don’t think Winn is really a ground-ball hitter. I wish I could find splits for GB% and FB%, but I strongly suspect that Winn hits more fly balls as a RHH than as a LHH, because in past years he had a higher HR rate as a RHH. If all of a sudden he’s hitting fly balls with no power, he’s gonna make a lot of outs.

But even if you take the BABIP off the table and assume a .300, his 2009 as a RHH works out to .267 AVG/.290 OBP — Bengie Molina without the power.

by taliesin on Feb 2, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Obviously that’s still terrible. But I still think you’re underestimating the flukiness of 125 PA’s.

In his last 124 PA’s, Freddy Sanchez hit .244/.254 /.277 (that’s 29 hits, 2 walks, 2 extra base hits) with a .298 BABIP. He also had a 12.0 K/BB (4.6 for Winn).

That’s worse than Winn’s BABIP-regressed line. If we change Winn’s BABIP to, say, .290, and change Sanchez’s to .325 (career .328) we get .256/.278 /.298 for Winn, and .265/.271/.296 for Sanchez – strikingly similar lines.

So obviously that’s a red flag for Sanchez (I actually wasn’t aware of this – 24 K’s to 2 walks is really really awful), but wouldn’t you still expect him to post something closer to his line in the past few years than to that?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 3, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually that’s kind of a perfect example, because we know that Sanchez was injured, so his “true” ability during his time with the Giants was probably below his career norms. Even so, a 99% confidence interval on Sanchez’s line for those 124 PAs would surely include his career averages. That’s just not the case for Winn as a RHH in 2009. That’s the point I was trying to make, Winn’s performance as a RHH was so bad that it simply could not be chalked up to luck or even a normal slump.

Furthermore, even though I do think Winn’s BABIP should be somewhat higher going forward, you can’t just pretend the .178 didn’t happen; hitters, unlike pitchers (mostly, at least), do influence their BABIP. If you don’t ever hit the ball hard, you’ll have a low BABIP and it’s not bad luck; look at, for example, Barry Zito’s BABIP as a batter (career .147). Winn, as evidenced by the lack of power, wasn’t hitting the ball hard as a RHH last season.

As for Sanchez, yes I expect him to be somewhat closer to his career averages because I do think it’s reasonable to suspect that the injuries affected him, but given his age, injury history, and AVG-dependent OBP, I don’t expect him to be an average hitter.

by taliesin on Feb 3, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

The thing with Winn for me that I can’t figure out is why one side would get so much worse while the other side didn’t, especially given his talent level from the two sides have been roughly equal for his career. I just can’t think of a good explanation for it.

by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2010 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

injury has to be the most likely cause, right? Perhaps his right knee or ankle. As a landing leg batting lefthanded, it would have less of an effect than as a power leg hitting righthanded.

by tyrannoman on Feb 3, 2010 1:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I made the point earlier, though it’s below now, that a right leg injury would explain the sudden lack of any power in his RH swing. You’d think it would affect his fielding, though…

by taliesin on Feb 3, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions  

And if it is an injury, we wouldn’t expect it to factor in for the future, so it’s kind of irrelevant at that point…

by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2010 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Not necessarily. The biggest problem with age is the increasing inability to recover from injury. Your body stops healing as fast and it stops healing as completely. Given the extraordinarily effective body mechanics that it takes to play baseball at this level, very small input declinces lead to very large output declines.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 3, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

It could be a whole bunch of injury (or declining skills) issues that affect one part of his body specifically — his left knee or ankle (the plant foot of the swing), his right wrist or hand or shoulder (the top or power hand of the swing), etc etc. Even one of his eyes declining faster than the other I’d guess. Although given Randy’s history of fouling balls off himself, if I had to put money down I might go for the left foot/ankle.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 3, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

The eyes and the reaction speed. Old guys will tell you, never throw off speed stuff to an old guy. Throw him ched. He won’t catch up to it. You remember Wilie in ’73? Not even able to catch up to mediocre fastballs that 5 years earlier he would have launched even while off-balance.

by E Ticket on Feb 3, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Well with regards to Winn, it just seems to me that it would be strange if those things declined so much from one side but not the other.

by Missing Barry on Feb 4, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I don’t know. I’d be really interested to see a study on how switch-hitters decline. I do know anecdotally (because he was a Giant at the end) that Reggie Smith could not hit RH at the end of his career at all, but was still a fairly productive LH, despite being pretty equal from both sides in his career overall. And I seem to recall that Pete Rose could still do a fair impression of batting RH at the end but completely fell apart LH.

As I say, that would be an interesting study to me.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 4, 2010 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

I think it would be interesting, too.

by Missing Barry on Feb 4, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions  

I didn’t mean to imply that was the reason for the drop off from one side to the other. Sorry bout dat.

WTF? now that I re-read it, it makes no sense at all in the context of Roger’s post. I mean my statement is correct, but it has no relevance to one side being weaker than another.

The only thing I can think of is if he has an injury on his front side like a bum knee, hip weak ankle etc. (the same would apply to pitchers too) than that would make hitting or throwing a ball that much more difficult. The front leg and hip always takes the brunt of the dynamics in a swing and a pitching delivery. But now that I look below I already mentioned that.

Getting old certainly has its drawbacks

by E Ticket on Feb 4, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, like pitching the it is the front leg that bears the brunt. You drive against the front leg in both instances and use the front leg to help rotate the hips, which in turn help rotate the shoulders and pivot the arms etc and the shinbone connected to the legbone dah dah dah de dum duh.. snap..

by E Ticket on Feb 3, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

I did project a .290 BABIP for WInn, even though he’s a career ~.320, with something like .300 from the right side.

There’s a whole lot of space between league average and Sanchez’s line in his last 125 PA’s. Same with Winn. I expect him to be much much closer to his “normal” line (which would be his career from the right side adjusted for his overall decline) than to his 2009 suckfest.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 3, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, but it’s a distinction without a difference — it’s equally unlikely that his true ability against lefties would plummet while his true ability against righties stayed basically the same. Whatever caused his one-sided collapse, it’s liable to even out again next year.

At any rate, the Yankees obviously see him as a complement to two guys who notoriously can’t hit lefties, so something’s gotta give.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 3:53 AM PST up reply actions  

It is certainly not “equally unlikely” that his true abilities as a RHH could plummet as that the bad performance happened by chance. The probability that it happened by chance is approximately 1 in 100,000. What’s the probability that he hurt his right knee a little bit somehow, and that affected him far more as a RHH than as a LHH?

The other theory would be that since he has typically been more of a slugger vs LHP (higher HR rate from that side), that his swing is longer as a RHH. Maybe his reaction time has slowed just enough that it’s killed him from that side, but his shorter, more line drive oriented stroke from the left side is still effective. Perhaps he can spend some time in the cage this winter and correct his right-handed swing.

In either case, I do think there’s a decent chance that he’ll be better as a RHH this season, but for that to happen he will actually have to swing the bat better, either because he’s healthier or he’s made an adjustment. It won’t happen just because his luck comes around.

by taliesin on Feb 2, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

it also helps that he’s not batting third in the yankee lineup

by speedyt72000 on Feb 1, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

This Is A Stupid Arguement

The Giants didn’t have the option to pay Garko just $0.55M. The choice the Giants faced was between paying Garko $3M (his likely arbitration award if the Giants kept him) or Huff $3M. One could argue on the side of either one but one would be foolish to argue with any degree of certainty that Garko was clearly a better choice.

by giantsrainman on Feb 1, 2010 3:48 PM PST reply actions  

But they could have cut Garko and then signed him for, say, $1.5 million. They’d save money and probably have a better team, if only because of the platoon possibility that doesn’t exist with Huff & Ishikawa.

by Evan on Feb 1, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

just because he was non tendered doesn’t mean he was banished for life

Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010

by Gobroks on Feb 1, 2010 4:25 PM PST up reply actions  

NFW

Players don’t do this much if at all. If a team isn’t willing to give him the arbitration raise he thinks he has earned why would he re-sign with that team for less when he could re-sign with a different team that didn’t “screw him” instead?

by giantsrainman on Feb 1, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions  

why would he re-sign with that team for less when he could re-sign with a different team that didn’t "screw him" instead?

because 1 million > 550K

Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010

by Gobroks on Feb 1, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

That Is Still Not the Way Most Think - He Was No Longer Even Talking To The Giants

He would of just used any offer from the Giants as leverage to up the offer from the other team he would be willing to sign with.

by giantsrainman on Feb 1, 2010 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

If the Giants hadn't signed Huff and had offered Garko 1 million, today (Feb 1)

He would’ve accepted

Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010

by Gobroks on Feb 1, 2010 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah, the imaginary world where athletes will take half as much to play in an inferior hitters environment.

by NeifiChicken on Feb 1, 2010 6:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Lest you forget

The A’s non tendered Jack Cust and re-signed him

Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010

by Gobroks on Feb 2, 2010 4:10 PM PST up reply actions  

The Exception That Proves The Rule

Not many baseball players egos allow them to do so.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 6:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course, because one person did what you said players don’t do, that proves your point. I never thought of that!

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Bochy benched him, why would he come back?

by ktice on Feb 1, 2010 9:13 PM PST up reply actions  

There are people out there who think an extra half million, or extra million, is a lot of money. Crazy, I know.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:31 AM PST up reply actions  

awesome

you’re now a behavioral economist as well?

Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Feb 1, 2010 5:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure Ryan Garko wouldn’t have turned down $1 million just because his feelings were hurt.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 1, 2010 9:43 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not a no-win game

Actually if you get other teams to pay more for players you don’t want that is a win. Not a big win, but if other teams waste resources, that’s good for you.

by taliesin on Feb 1, 2010 9:51 PM PST up reply actions  

That Would Be A Stupid Effort To Make

You can read things wrong and end up with players you don’t want. But even more importantly the last thing any team wants is a reputation for this kind of gamesmanship with other teams or players.

by giantsrainman on Feb 1, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m sure the player would be so pissed that the Giants stepped in and improved his market so he made more money. Damn those Giants! The whole point is if you make the offer to Garko for $1M (just using that as an example), then it’s because you want Garko for $1M, you’re not ending up with anyone you don’t want. It’s not gamesmanship, it’s being a baseball GM. You make players offers for the money you want to pay them.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:33 AM PST up reply actions  

But you’re making a serious offer, if the other GM is mad, they clearly don’t understand their job.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I wish I was you, GRM

To be absolutely sure that you know how any number of other people would think/react in a given situation must be a great feeling. No matter how incorrect you actually are.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 2, 2010 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

That does seem like it would be an excellent skill for screenwriting.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 2, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Not if all your characters are thinly-veiled versions of yourself. (Shh! Don’t tell my agent)

In all seriousness, though, I really struggle to figure out how my characters would react to a given situation — and I created them. That’s sort of like GRM God not being sure whether or not Garko holds a grudge against the Giants.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 2, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

You know the old story about Pushkin, talking about his heroine in Evgeny Onegin, supposedly said, “look what happened to my Tatiana… she up and rejected that Onegin. I never expected it of her.”

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 2, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

To me, that’s the best feeling a writer of fiction (as opposed to a fictional writer) can ever have — besides writing “The End”, that is: When one of your characters is developed to the point where they act all by themselves, their own free will seemingly separate from yours.

It seems impossible until it happens — one moment you’re thinking up things for them to say/do, and then suddenly one of them just up and says/does something before you can decide exactly what it should be. Not only do those words/actions almost always take you in a direction you’d never even considered until you find yourself actually writing them, but those are the moments readers usually identify as their favorites.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 2, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

You are aware, I assume

That the A’s cut Cust this year to avoid offering him arbitration, and then signed him for less than he would have gotten in arbitration, right? Doesn’t mean that Garko would have done the same, but it’s ridiculous that you call a scenario “imaginary”, say there’s “no fucking way” it would have happened, and tell Gobroks that he lives in an “Imaginary World” , all when the exact same thing happened just two weeks ago.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 2, 2010 3:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Didn't the Padres used to do this often?

Or was it offering arbitration to type-B’s with a gentleman’s agreement not to accept?

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 2, 2010 3:21 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know

But it took the A’s a few weeks to re-sign Cust, so I don’t think it was an agreement.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 2, 2010 3:48 AM PST up reply actions  

OWNED

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Feb 2, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions  

The Exception That Proves The Rule

Very few baseball players egos allow them to do this.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

So by “imaginary” you actually meant “not likely”, and by “no fucking way” you meant “probably not”, and by a “Choice That Never Happened” you meant “a choice that I acknowledge might have existed, but probably didn’t, though I am aware that similar things have happened before, including few weeks ago”. What a nice way of communicating you have.

How do you even know that’s not how most athletes think? Yes, it’s hasn’t happened many times, but the possibility of it happening is extremely rare in itself – it requires a team willing to cut a player in order to not pay him a few millions, but also liking him enough that they’re willing to pay more for him than any other team in the majors. How many times does that situation presents itself? Do you have enough (or any) counterexamples to the Cust one that support your point?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 3, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

-1

just because he signed for 550k, doesn’t mean he’d sign for 1.5 million

YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL

by heimy25 on Feb 1, 2010 8:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Hitters just don’t sign with the Giants, guys! Never! Why assume he’d take the way better offer when we can just assume he hates AT&T and will never play for us!

by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 8:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Playing under Bork again for a larger single season salary would be a short-sighted move for his career.

by ktice on Feb 1, 2010 9:15 PM PST up reply actions  

He just signed up with a team that wants to use him as the weak side of a platoon, in the harder league, in a park that’s murder on right-handed hitters! If he’s trying to reestablish his value, he has chosen probably the single worst situation in the majors.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 3:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok, that’s fine, throw it out there as a factor, but don’t claim that it makes anything definite. You can claim that factor, and I’ll claim that players tend to take the best deal they’re offered. Doesn’t seem to me we can assume to know what he would or wouldn’t have done.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Makes two of you guys then ;-)

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 1, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

You mean I don’t assume to know things I don’t? Yeah, exactly. There’s no reason to “assume” he wouldn’t sign with the GIants. I have yet to claim he would have, just point out that players tend to take the best offer, so that’s something working in the Giants favor. What you don’t get is the limits of your knowledge.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions  

I’m not even saying just the Giants specifically. There are other factors that make guys decide about who to play for besides the money. Who knows, maybe Garko learned he doesn’t like the NL, maybe he doesn’t like SF, maybe he doesn’t like playing against the other teams in the West. Who knows? You can’t just blame the FO assuming you know that more money AUTOMATICALLY means a player will sign with one team or another

YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL

by heimy25 on Feb 1, 2010 10:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Likewise, you can’t absolve the FO of responsibility for poor roster choices by assuming that better roster choices were impossible.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 6:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Well……you can if you’re a Sabean apologist.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Feb 2, 2010 8:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Who knows, maybe Garko learned he doesn’t like the NL, maybe he doesn’t like SF, maybe he doesn’t like playing against the other teams in the West.

But it’s fucking stupid to assume any of this. I realize I don’t know this, so I don’t take it into account. You know why? Because I don’t know, and assuming one way or the other is fucking stupid. You know what we’re best off doing? Realizing what we don’t know and assuming those factors are what we would expect out of any other player. Which is to say he doesn’t have any special hatreds. Why would you just assume he does? We can blame the FO, because more money is something we DO know influences players. What you don’t get is more times than not we’re going to be right.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Someone is a little cranky

YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL

by heimy25 on Feb 2, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah I dunno why but people not acknowledging that we shouldn’t make decisions on things we can’t know is really bothering me this morning. It’s the same crap with GRM and his projections – he doesn’t recognize the purpose of projections is that, since we can’t know the future, we can try to figure out the probability distribution for the future and make our decisions based on that.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

And yes, we all know how accurate Marcel's are: Not!

Is this guy for real? He’s actually using Marcels to compare players? The quality of USS Mariners must have gone down when their co-founder left them for Fangraphs. Not one of the major baseball analytics websites even uses Marcel for player comparisons.

CHONE is a more accurate projection and that makes this move makes Sabean look even more dumb, as Garko is projected to hit .781 OPS vs. Huff’s .765 OPS. The author should have done that, at least, it would have helped their argument.

Still, one needs to remember that even the more accurate projection systems, which Chone was deemed to be for their 2008 projections, really is only accurate on an overall basis.

Plus, the number generated is only the mean projection for the player. None of these consider the spread of possibilities for that player. Maybe Huff is projected to be as good or lower than Garko, but Huff, being a vet, should have a smaller distribution curve and thus a greater likelihood of hitting around his projection, whereas Garko has a wider span of possibilities.

Here are the negatives I saw with Garko when looking at whether the Giants should keep him or not:

  • He has benefited from hitting better at home, this despite a pitcher’s park of a home in Cleveland.
  • He can only play 1B and his defense there is not as good as Ishikawa
  • While he hits LHP well, he’s not good against RHP, not for any position except for maybe catcher or SS. As you can see, he’s never played a full season, and that is because he was held out against certain RHP, resulting in more play against LHP. There are roughly 25% AB against LHP in the NL, and Garko had 28%. Adjusting that would reduce his lifetime OPS by around 5-10 points, including the effect of him facing better pitchers.
  • Garko is more comfortable hitting lower in the order, his batting line goes down greatly the more you rely on him.
  • He has also done very poorly in inter-league play, that is, when playing in NL parks.
  • His batting line has dropped to unacceptable levels for a 1B the past two years, suggesting that the league has adjusted to him but he hasn’t adjusted back. Yet the projections, even Marcel, has him doing much better in 2010 as compared to his 2008 and 2009.
  • There is little difference between him and Ishikawa, other than handedness, because Ishikawa’s defense makes up for his lacking in offense relative to Garko. To keep two hitters so similar and limited to 1B would hamper the flexibility of the roster.

Huff, however, has consistently hit 20+ homers in 6 of the last 8 seasons, has a lifetime batting lne that is better than Garko’s, particularly in terms of SLG and power, plus can play 1B, 3B, and LF/RF.

Maybe that flexibility and the possibility that the Huff of 2008 might return is not worth the extra $1.5M difference (they are forgetting that had the Giants kept Garko, they would have to go into arbitration with him and pay him around $1.5M, which was the estimates I was seeing before he got dropped).

But that is not really the point here. Huff most probably should hit around what Garko would deliver had we kept him. But there is the possibility that 2009 was just an off-year (his low BABIP suggests as much) and if he is hitting the way he can, he would be a valuable hitter in the cleanup spot of our lineup, whereas Garko at best would be batting 7th in the lineup, now that Molina is back. There are no indicators that Garko can improve, other than “he’s young” but Huff could conceivably return to past performances levels, as he is only 33, a lot of his problem last year was BABIP related, then park (Detroit) related.

In addition, he provides flexibility in that if Sandoval is injured like he was last season, Huff could move to 3B while Sandoval moves to 1B, no loss to the offense, while if Garko was around, Sandoval would play 1B while Uribe takes 3B, which would be a loss of offense unless Uribe can pull another rabbit out of his hat like he did in 2009 (which he couldn’t do in the 5 seasons before that else he wouldn’t have had to take a minor league contract with us to play in 2009). Huff could also play in LF or RF (with Ishikawa at 1B) if either LF or RF was scuffling or whatever. We would not be able to do that with Garko.

Again, is that worth an extra $1.5M? Maybe, maybe not, but that is certainly not being accounted for by the USS Mariners poster.

And ultimately, does a fan cares that the team spends a little more money to get additional flexibility plus the possibility of a significant output if that helps the team wins? No. They only really care when the team sucks (though 2009 is testing that, one would think that after such a great season of WINNING, some fans would get off their high hiney and stop complaining, but oh well…).

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"Woo hoo!" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"The objective is that World Series ring" - The Kid

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 2, 2010 9:45 AM PST reply actions  

yeah, boyeeeeee

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

I’ve never understood why you put so much stock into splits. You obviously do the required reading. You should know better.

Also, I’m really unsure about Huff’s position flexibility. If he can play those positions adequately, I think you have a point to some degree, I just don’t see why you think that holds true. He hasn’t played OF since 2006, and he was pretty bad out there to begin with. He’s played under 400 innings at 3B the last 3 seasons combined, and it’s not like his 3B line was ever good, and you’d expect him to be worse now than he used to be, plus, from an objective standpoint, you should include his 1B fielding (with the proper positional adjustment) with the 3B fielding since they’re so similar to look at what you think his true talent level is…

one would think that after such a great season of WINNING, some fans would get off their high hiney and stop complaining, but oh well

I’ll just point out that one thing a lot of us aren’t happy about is the 88 wins were luck. If it got us into the playoffs, sure, I’d be thrilled to be lucky, but we still missed the playoffs, and we weren’t nearly as good as the 88 wins suggested.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 10:16 AM PST up reply actions  

The reason splits are important are that you see what you are getting most of the time

High 700 OPS looks good for Garko for his career, but if 75% of the time he’s a .750-ish OPS playing 1B, then that’s not so good for your offense.

Splits are also important to pull out players who are benefiting or suffering from the effects of their home park, which, of course, would not be duplicated when he moves to a new park.

And there are people who cannot handle the pressure of being the focus of the offense and do worse in that position.

So you should now know better.

According to the fielding bible, in limited play in 2008 at both positions, he was a -1 run saved, or roughly about minus half a win when you prorate his starts to a full season. That’s not great, but that is not bad if he hits the way he’s capable of. That is roughly what UZR/150 says for him too. UZR/150 says he’s -1 win defensively so, yeah, I agree he’s bad offensively out there.

But I never said that he’ll be playing out in those other positions regularly. He’s our 1B. But because he can play 3B or LF or RF, we can keep him in the lineup, assuming he’s performing back to his former standards, while rotating in some of the younger players. Garko would either start at 1B or sit.

88 wins was not entirely luck. We got the pitching to back that up and the pitching and offense should be even better in 2010. An average offense with the defense we had last year should net us 90+ wins.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"Woo hoo!" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"The objective is that World Series ring" - The Kid

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 2, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions  

High 700 OPS looks good for Garko for his career, but if 75% of the time he’s a .750-ish OPS playing 1B, then that’s not so good for your offense.

It’s also worth noting that 65% of the time, Garko is an .000 OPS player! If that’s the Garko that shows up, you’re in real trouble.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Most splits are not predictive. It’s sample size. You’re ignoring better data and choosing to use worse data in it’s place, because you’re looking to confirm your beliefs. L/R splits are fine, if you have a big enough sample. They make sense. H/R splits are almost always meaningless. Seeing how a guy hits in a different part of the lineup is meaningless. Seeing how a guy hits when playing a different position is mostly meaningless (has some merit if you’re talking about C, but that’s it). Use the full data set. It’s a much, much, much better estimate of a guys talent level, and these splits you’re looking for (other than L/R) don’t change talent levels, which are what we’re trying to estimate to predict future performance. They’re just confirming biases. Use the full data set – it’s the only objective way to do it, unless you have a really, really, really good reason why a split is meaningful AND the sample size is very large. Seriously, read The Book blog (or The Book itself), read Fangraphs (I know you do), these points come up. Splits are meaningless, and if you use them to make decisions for the future, you’re doing it wrong.

88 wins was not entirely luck. We got the pitching to back that up and the pitching and offense should be even better in 2010. An average offense with the defense we had last year should net us 90+ wins.

I mean, no, it wasn’t entirely luck, we were seemingly more of an 82-84 win team, a definite improvement on years past, but still not 88 or a playoff team or anything meaningful when it comes to winning the World Series, which should be our goal. Our pitching is great, but who’s to say it’s as good as it was last year? All it takes is a key injury and then what are we gonna do? What if Wilson regresses, or Lincecum (it’s more likely he does worse than better)? And who’s to say the defense is the same? Old guys get worse. Ishikawa to Huff is a clear downgrade. Winn is gone. And we’re a far cry from an average offense right now.

Look, there’s a reason people do projections. You can’t just say “if our offense is average we’ll win 90 games because we allowed X number of runs last year”. The objective, correct way to do this is to estimate talent levels and project each individual and add it up at the team level. We’re not a 90 win team if you do that. Not all that close, either.

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Rally cry for 2010: Go Crazy luck! Go!

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 2, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I just finished by 2010 WAR projections today for my site (plug!) and I’ve got us as an 83 win team right now. Seems about right because my first instinct is that we didn’t really improve our team that much from last year. And the more Sanchez misses at 2B the worst it gets.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

If things had broken just a little differently we were only a couple injuries away from a Burriss/Bocock MI!

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 2, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I’ve got Freddy projected at 525 PA’s right now — I’m not sure if that’s optimistic or not.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Let’s hope it’s not.
.
.
.
.
.
.
But I think it is.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 2, 2010 3:16 PM PST up reply actions  

that seems about right to me.

TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development

by zenbitz on Feb 2, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Positional flexibility?

I don’t really think Huff can play 3B except in an emergency. He’s career -4 UZR at 3B, but has played there very little since 2006. His -4 career UZR/150 at first (where he’s spent the most innings recently) would suggest (charitably) that he’s likely to be -10 or so at third base at this point. Sanchez, Uribe and even Derosa would all be better choices there, so I don’t see much value in his moving across the diamond.

He could probably play LF at a level not that much below average (given how terrible average is in LF), but the Giants have tons of outfielders so I don’t see that as being particularly useful either.

I guess all that changes if he somehow starts hitting like he did two years ago. Then you’d really want to do anything to keep his bat in the lineup. I just don’t see that happening.

by taliesin on Feb 2, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

He could probably play LF at a level not that much below average (given how terrible average is in LF)

I think that underestimates how terrible an outfielder Huff is. -7.8 UZR/150 at the corner OF spots, and all that came when he was under 30…

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

By “not that much below average” I was sort of thinking “significantly better than Adam Dunn.” I was envisioning he could be in the -5 range, but you’re right, even that might be generous.

by taliesin on Feb 2, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

As I noted above, it is not like I’m suggesting that he could start at other position indefinitely. He would be going to these other positions as needed (i.e. as you note emergency) and not look like he’s never played there before. He hasn’t been the greatest in those positions, but I didn’t say that he would be, just that he could field those positions if necessary, so that we can play other players in the starting lineup and still keep him in the lineup.

And he’s been a 3B since college and he’ll get the chance to get comfortable at 1B, defensively, which should help him be more consistent defensively, whereas previously he was playing at a number of positions and not given a chance to get comfortable.

And, of course, the main point is that it all depends on him hitting like he did before, defensively flexibility was meant to just be one additional beneficial aspect of having him. It’s a $1.5M bet that he could be what he once was:

  • he does hit: then we get a big boost to our lineup.
  • he hits OK: then we mix Ishikawa in there.
  • he hits horribly: we still have Ishikawa there to take the position and we DFA him.

It’s a slight gamble of some money to possibly get a good performance from him, whereas Garko, I would not say that there is much hope of a breakout season, he is what he is, now that he’s 29 YO.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"Woo hoo!" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"The objective is that World Series ring" - The Kid

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 2, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

just to be clear

you’re aruging the that 34 year old player is a better upside player than the 29 year old who out-performed him last year while providing better defense. Gotcha. And you’re preaching to me based on your “Feelings” and citing inter-league splits as a sample size? Do you understand the basics of statistical analysis, at all?

Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Feb 2, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

We don’t need to be hitting like he did two years ago, we only need him to be hitting better than Garko. I would bet that he hits better than Garko.

I just got the Baseball Forecaster today and this is what they said about Garko: “Looking for a breakout season? … CON: Power now less than average, slide v. RHP says he’s a platoon candidate. … bet against.” Projected to hit .271/.325/.425/.750

About Huff: “He will rebound some…” Projected to hit .270/.331/.445/.776

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"Woo hoo!" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"The objective is that World Series ring" - The Kid

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 2, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Except with Garko we had a platoon advantage with Ishikawa. With Huff we don’t have that. I’ll also note that projections don’t take into account how our park is hard to hit HR’s to RF. Huff pulls all his HR’s to RF…

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I wouldnt bet on it either. That said he is just turned 33, and 2004 is the only year in the last 8 seasons in which he didn’t outproduce our 1B (and he had a very good year that year), so it doesn’t strike me as outlandish to suppose that he wouldn’t bounce back from 2009 and be our best 1B in years.

That said I totally agree with you that Huff brings no practical defensive flexibility. I can think of a few pitchers on our staff who could probably play the OF more effectively than Huff.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 2, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Trying to sell Huff off as a flexible defensive player seems dishonest at best.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Hey, he’d be better at third than Garko would be at catcher!

I mean, probably. A little bit.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I was about to say that Garko is just as flexible as Huff is when it comes to defense.

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by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Man, Huff’s Fan Scouting Reports are brutal. Last year, he ranked around 41st out of 48 first basemen. The year before, he was scored as a third baseman and came in 45th out of 50. The year before that, he was a first baseman again and finished 46th out of 58th.

But hey, he was ahead of Garko!

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

This doesn’t really have anything to do with our conversation, but I noticed today that Branyan is still unsigned. I’m going to be really ticked when he signs for less than Huff.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t really mind missing out on Branyan. He’s better than Huff, but probably not a lot better, and he’s got that back injury.

An incentivey contract to Carlos Delgado would make me happier.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Still, 300 PA’s of Branyan > 600 PA’s of Huff by a good margin. I keep hearing that Delgado is moving around poorly in the winter leagues but I’d take a shot on him over Huff.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Nah. Branyan had a good year last year and Huff had a bad one, but before that they were virtually the same with the bat, probably a slight edge to Huff. They’re the same age, neither one can field much …

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Branyan is a better defender at 1B and CHONE has him projected at .359 for next season. Huff is projected at .334. That’s what I’m going off of.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I’d have their projections much closer together.

But it may well be that Branyan’s constant injuries have kept his numbers below his true talent level, which would make him a good Delgado-ish gamble: if he’s healthy, he’ll be good, and if he’s not, you keep him out of the lineup.

The fact that our backup plan (Ishikawa) isn’t completely terrible makes the Giants well suited to gamble on a player like that. Or would, if we hadn’t committed to Huff instead.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I’d have their projections much closer together.

But why? The projections are less biased then you, have more information, have a better ability to properly regress the factors that lead to performance….in other words, your personal opinion does exactly what the proejctions do, except not as good. Unless you have some sort of information the projections don’t have, I don’t know why you seem to trust your own opinion over theirs?

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

The projections are surely smarter than I am, but they’re still organized guesswork, as reflected in the fact that different systems often vary quite a bit in their projections. So yes, I apply my subjective perceptions of players as well.

Branyan was a far better player in 2009. From 2006-08, Huff was the better player, and it’s not close. If the projection systems give less weight to that than I do, so be it.

by Evan on Feb 2, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

And I don’t try to claim their methodology is perfect, I’m sure there are ways they can all improve.

If the projection systems give less weight to that than I do, so be it.

And my whole point is the projections systems have a systematic, unbiased way at weighting these based on years and years or historical data that indicates how they should weight it, but you’re trusting your own opinion that’s based on…..nothing, really, rather than their ability to analyze historical trends. Now, if you have an actual methodology behind your thoughts, I reserve the right to take this all back…but it just seems to me you’re going with your “gut” over better information. :)

by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Why Isn't Huff An Equal Upside Gamble?

2008 is not that far in the past and it wasn’t his only 4+ WAR season.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 6:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Because historically if you look at what players along Huff’s lines do, and what players along Branyan’s lines do, the ones like Branyan do better.

by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2010 7:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Boss Hogg!

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 3, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Big Bossman!

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 3, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Do you think through your answers before you post them?

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"Woo hoo!" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"The objective is that World Series ring" - The Kid

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 2, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

We both know that Huff isn’t a ‘flexible defensive player’. So, yeah, I’ve thought that one through.

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by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

And there really isn’t a reason to be snarky. How old are you again?

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

very old

if I’m remembering who this poster is (Martin?) correctly; he was preaching about veterans back in 2007, if I recall correctly.

Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Feb 2, 2010 5:17 PM PST up reply actions  

STEALTH REBUILD!

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Feb 2, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

But Roger, do you really think that pitcher will hit as well as Huff?

As I noted above, it is not like I’m suggesting that he will be regularly starting at other positions, it is that if the need arises, he can be moved and the team wouldn’t suffer that much defensively while keeping his bat in the lineup.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"Woo hoo!" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"The objective is that World Series ring" - The Kid

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 2, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, Huff would be a defensive hit at every other position

Especially in the spacious outfield of AT&T park

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 2, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm sorry

All I heard was “I’m going to do that annoying and dumb thing I do where I think of what I want to say and bend stats to try and make myself sound righ.”

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 2, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I like these new shorter replies.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 2, 2010 7:33 PM PST up reply actions  

By the Way - I Can't Find Your WAR Projections At Your Blog

i saw here at the mccoven that you said you had completed them and they added up to projecting a 83 win season but I can’t see where you have posted them.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 8:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I have the draft done, they should be up in a couple of days! Getting over some food poising, so I’ve been moving slow (and having copious amounts of butt pee)

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by xanthan on Feb 3, 2010 4:21 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL!

GRM, you haven’t lived until you’ve both vomited and had butt pee at the same time. It was truly awful.

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 3, 2010 6:55 AM PST up reply actions  

I know how that felt

I got that after one lunch from Jack in the Box.

"meh"

by SFGuy on Feb 3, 2010 7:15 PM PST up reply actions  

This might be the first time that I find myself in agreement with GRM.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Feb 3, 2010 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

From Oldrips
To: McCoven
RE: Xanthan Buttpee

“….in agreement with GRM”

I think I’ll just file this particular memo in file 13 thank you very much.

by E Ticket on Feb 3, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

You should frame it also…………….it’s not likely to happen again.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Feb 3, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Xanthan’s buttpee or you agreeing with he who shall remain invisible to the webot? Prolly both right?

by E Ticket on Feb 3, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Someones optimistic about the buttpee (or lack thereof). Who said this forum is out of touch?

go rowand

by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 4, 2010 2:41 AM PST up reply actions  

What are you talking about?

Can you show me a specific example where I cherry-picked splits instead of using career-average production or projections or something like that?

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 2, 2010 9:29 PM PST up reply actions  

You Bend In Other Ways

And you are wrong on splits. In one season they do not tell you much but over multiple seasons one would be foolish to draw the same conclusion.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 9:57 PM PST up reply actions  

.....

I actually use splits a lot, mainly in regard to lefty-righty splits. I do not, however, do what OGC does and set arbitrary endpoints (and pull out certain stretches of time where a player did poorly) to illustrate my point.

In OGC’s post above he:
1. Fails to tell us that the league as a whole hits better at home than on the road.
2. Talks about Huff’s time in Detroit without mentioning his even bigger time in Baltimore, which played as a neutral park last season.
3. Fails to mention Garko’s deviation in BABIP from his normal levels.
4. Generally bloviates and throws out random crap comments like Huff being able to offer “positional flexibility” when he’s a damn liability at every position, save first base where he’s just bad.

And which ways do I bend stats GRM? You have charged something against me, so as to show that you’re not just pulling something out of your rear end, can you provide examples?

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 2, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

We All Bend - It Is Only Natural To Do So

I read you both and I appreciate both of your different points of view. I see little value in one of you using a strawman to attack the view of the other.

by giantsrainman on Feb 2, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions  

But I did not push a strawman

I have a legitimate issue with the way OGC uses arbitrary endpoints and splits to make his arguments and says things that don’t have much basis (not often) such as Huff’s defensive flexibility. These are direct, specific criticisms I have that I believe skew the way one looks at players and teams.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Feb 2, 2010 10:44 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

This has nothing to do with “strawman”. Absolutely nothing.

And, earlier, if you just meant that everybody bends stats, "Pot Talking To Kettle " doesn’t really make sense either (though it’s not as irrelevant as “strawman”).

You made two allegations, and then, when asked to back them up, just made different arguments, and pretended that’s what you meant. Why not just admit your allegations were baseless? Or, at the very least, admit that your wording was poor (if that’s really what you meant)?

You argue like you think people are idiots, GRM. Like you think you can contradict yourself as much as you want, and retroactively change the meaning of your comments (many times to something not even similar), and no one will call you out on it.

We’re not idiots, and we will call you out. I don’t understand what you think you can gain by continuing to argue like this.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 5, 2010 6:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Didn’t you say the other day that you were like 14 or something? Can I just say that I’m stunned and amazed by this. I never ever would have guessed it from the sophistication with which you build logical and cohesive arguments. I’m fairly confident that this was not the level of debate that I was using when I was a teenager.

Bravo!

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 5, 2010 8:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Cookyyoungman!

#1 FanShot Champion

by xanthan on Feb 5, 2010 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

PS, I apologize if that sounded condescending.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Feb 5, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!

I am 17 though, which is quite different from 14. At least in my mind.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Feb 5, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Fourteen or Seventeen, little matter. Your construct and logic are well structured as well as easy to follow. Your restraint and maturity is one exhibited normally in a manner of someone much more experienced with contrary personalities.

My only suggestion would be to expend your reasoning on more reasonable people.

by E Ticket on Feb 5, 2010 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

We All Bend – It Is Only Natural To Do So

Maybe, but some of us at least put some effort into being objective and consistent, even if it sometimes leads us to conclusions we don’t want to make. Others of us don’t. If you want to attempt to be objective, there is very little value in splits. If you have a big enough sample size, L/R splits can be meaningful, since we know there is a real difference between hitting against LHP and RHP. It could also be that a huge sample could tell us if a player was a good fit at a certain ballpark (think of a guy like Lewis with gap power but not much HR power in AT&T), but you need a huge sample for that, and most guys never even get close. The bottom line is just because you find a difference doesn’t mean it’s meaningful, there has to be a reason for the difference to give it any weight, which is why most splits are meaningless – they don’t change the guys talent level (unlike L/R splits, which do change the players talent level), so going forward, you can only expect him to play at his talent level.

by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2010 7:11 AM PST up reply actions  

What is it with this thread? Xanthan butt-pee? Waxing on the proclivities for community bend-overs?

I was genuinely not aware that Advanced Statistical Analysis was so immersed in human anatomical ingresses and egresses

by E Ticket on Feb 3, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Your East Coast Bias Keeps You From Being AWhere The Action And Info Are

It’s a wino, isn’t it?
Come on, you can tell me.

"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry

by victor frankenstein on Feb 3, 2010 7:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I probably shouldn’t share my regression of ingresses on egresses then.

go rowand

by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 4, 2010 2:43 AM PST up reply actions  

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