The 2011 Hall of Fame Class
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2010 1:30 PM PST
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PrintSome people divide their Hall-of-Fame ballots up by separating the "first-ballot, inner circle" types from the "outer circle" types. I don’t have a ballot, of course, but I would divvy mine up into different categories.
If you do not vote for them, you should not even be voting, what in the hell is wrong with you, you awful person, you’ve ruined the sport of baseball for everyone, I can’t believe this, you make me sick, oh, the humanity, you probably were responsible for New Coke and "Cop Rock."
- Jeff Bagwell
- Tim Raines
- Roberto Alomar
- Bert Blyleven
Bagwell is getting hit because a) there aren’t rumors that he was involved with steroids, but doesn’t he seem like the type would do them?, and b) people don’t remember what an expanse of field the Astrodome was. If Colorado can put balls in humidors to level the playing field, Houston should have been able to put bowls of pills and syringes in each clubhouse to level the playing field. That was the Petco Park of its time, and Bagwell still demolished it.
Tim Raines is one of the greatest leadoff hitters of all-time, and it’s a bunch of south-continent bias that he’s not a first-ballot guy.
Alomar is getting in, most likely. Blyleven has a great chance, too, even though he was cained out of 300 wins by a baker’s dozen. If he gets a little more offense or a little more bullpen help
I’d vote for them, but I understand that there might be less-than-tortured arguments against them.
- Barry Larkin
- Edgar Martinez
- Alan Trammell
Larkin gets hurt by the injuries he had almost every single year, but he was the league’s best shortstop for a decade. Martinez gets hurt because he’s a DH, but I never understood that. There is position called the designated hitter, and Martinez was the best ever. What’s the problem? It’s like refusing to induct a centerfielder because I think baseball should eliminate CF and go with eight fielders. That’s swell that I think that, but that’s not how baseball works.
Trammell is one of the better shortstops ever, but he’s killed by the lower offensive numbers from the ‘80s. A 110 OPS+ accounts for that, though, and it isn’t that impressive, even for a quality defensive shortstop. I still think Trammell and Lou Whitaker should go in together, and they should finish each other’s sentences during the induction ceremony.
I don’t think I’d vote for them, but I understand that there might be good arguments for them, and I reserve the right to change my mind in subsequent years
- Kevin Brown
- Fred McGriff
- Dale Murphy
- Larry Walker
- John Olerud
No
- Everyone else.
Especially you, Jack Morris, because "pitching to the score" is ex post facto nonsense. Every one else on the ballot would be on my Hall of Very Good ballot, except…
Kirk Rueter
- Kirk Rueter
I’d be the guy to vote for Kirk Rueter because, hey, Kirk Rueter.
So now you. Tell the world your HOF picks and snubs, and when you don’t pick Tim Raines, we’ll laugh at you in that condescending internet nerd kind of way. It stings, doesn’t it? You know it does.
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IAWTC
you should not even voting
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
Oh, so you think you can put up a new thread and everyone’s just going to come running and start posting in it right away?
WELL NOT ME! FIGHT THE POWER!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 1:35 PM PST reply actions
I'M WITH YOU
I’M NOT GOING TO POST HERE EITHER
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
YEAH!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
Without a second thought
Anyone who would even post a single word in this thread should be mocked and shunned mercilessly.
"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson
"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.
by Sabean's_Folly on Dec 29, 2010 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
LOL ME
//chopped
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 29, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
oh geez, maybe a suject line would have been appropriate?
LL would have banned me for that… oops.
It’s okay, it was pretty funny. But next time…
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
Bert, Bagwell, Trammell, Raines
Probably McGwire and Larkin, too. Edgar Martinez as well.
MY HALL IS HUGE!
Ask me about my blog.
/Points at xanthan’s hall
/laughs
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
TWSS
“like throwing a hotdog down a hallway”, or words to that effect.
"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson
"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.
by Sabean's_Folly on Dec 29, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
You are truly a HOF Whore.
"I always knew I was going to be thrown at. I was old-school, so I didn't care, as long as they hit me from the neck down.'' Hac-Man One Flap down Jeffrey Leonard
by Penitentiary Face on Dec 31, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
My fictional ballot
Alomar
Blyleven
Raines
Bagwell
Martinez
Larkin
Trammell
Brown
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Oh yeah, McGwire too
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Overall, I pretty much agree.
I would add McGwire into my maybe list. Cause while his numbers outside of power related items are not HoF worthy, the dude almost single-handedly helped revive fan interest in baseball, and now he is being shit on for it. That has to count for something.
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/mark-mcgwire-admits-it-was-really-fucking-fun-hitt,2890/
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
by Natto on Dec 29, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Why McGwire gets my vote...
“High plus far plus hard equals big-time, serious fun,” McGwire continued.
Maybe he didn’t actually say it, but I bet he thought it.
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
Other than Bonds, Puckett and McGriff were the only other players I bothered to trade cards for. I never really had any Griffey or Frank Thomas because of all of the cards those guys kept bringing in trades.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
...
ok?
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
Looks like a reply fail. However, I’m having trouble finding exactly where I was trying to put this. Maybe my brain just thought everyone needed to know this information?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Oh I see now. I read 'McGwire' as 'McGriff.'
It’s not that I’m crazy it’s just that I can’t read!
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I was so confused.
Still interesting information.
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
Nah, you’re crazy.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 29, 2010 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
MARQUIS GRISSOM MAN
I'm still waiting for John Johnstone to come off the DL.
by yankeessuck8991 on Dec 29, 2010 1:37 PM PST reply actions
I love jeopardy!
What is: “a terrible super-hero concept”
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
i chuckled.
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
One of my HoF requirements...
is that you must have been a Starting Lineup figure at one point.
Ask me about my blog.
by xanthan on Dec 29, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Woo!
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
by Natto on Dec 29, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
With special upper-body inflation lever!
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
OBIE!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
This is awesome, too.
http://www.sharapovasthigh.com/2009/09/40-most-undeserving-mlb-starting-lineup.html
There’s a Todd Benzinger Starting Lineup…. that’s amazing.
Ask me about my blog.
Wow.
I don’t think Tom Brookens gets enough credit for pioneering the steampunk wacky facial hair movement.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
awesome
now my office knows I clicked on something called sharapovasthigh.com
Sucking up to Grant for a mod position since 2009
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
‘clicked’ on it.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
I figured that
the masturbated in the men’s room implication would be obvious
Sucking up to Grant for a mod position since 2009
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
I decided not to go with ‘yicked on it’ in order to make it more subtle.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah I got the "FORBIDDEN" page from my work when I clicked on it.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Damn it I should have read the replies.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ray Guy!!!
FtF: Welcome to Opposite Season!
McC: Don't get it? Try the McWiki wiki.
by Merope on Dec 29, 2010 1:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
LOL handegg
but rec’d for awesomeness.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
John Smiley
at the end of the day it's all about kicking the tires
by duke_diligence on Dec 29, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Err... I mean... John Smiley!
at the end of the day it's all about kicking the tires
by duke_diligence on Dec 29, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
I’M not Smiley, I’m a REAL cow! Moo!
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
I don't buy this
Martinez gets hurt because he’s a DH, but I never understood that. There is position called the designated hitter, and Martinez was the best ever.
Does that mean that the best LOOGY ever gets in to the hall?
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
And also
DH is not a position. It is a decided lack of a position.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
This is not a comparison that works. Being a LOOGY means severely reduced playing time, which means having a small effect on the game. A team with a good starter and a bad LOOGY is better than a team with a bad starter and a good LOOGY.
The DH get as many plate appearances as any other position player. A team with a good DH and a bad 1B isn’t better than a team with a bad DH and a good 1B.
severely reduced playing time
Such as not playing 1/2 of the game?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Which stats?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Well, any WAR-type stat.
You could also just compare him to the guys who essentially have no defensive value – his offensive stats compare favourably to Manny Ramirez’s, for example, and he’s a sure-fire Hall of Famer (unless the failed test keeps him out).
For me
I just have a hard time supporting someone for the baseball hall of fame when they didn’t really, you know, play baseball.
Now, my logic runs into a certain amount of trouble when it comes to pitchers not batting, but I think the fact that pitchers only play every 5 days or so mitigates the fact that they’re not batting.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Like it or not...
According to the rules of the game, being a DH is “playing baseball”. We may not like the rule and wish we could wave a magic wand and have it banished to oblivion for all eternity. But, to coin a phrase, “The thing is, it happened.” Edgar Martinez happened. He was one of the greatest pure hitters of his era, and the greatest DH ever. I don’t think he should be punished because we don’t like that MLB created a goofy rule, and then he played in accordance with that rule.
Also, I think it’s wrong to think of Edgar Martinez as a guy who never picked up a glove or who couldn’t play defense. He did log a fairly significant number of innings in the field—more than 4800 innings of defensive play over the course of his career—4600 of those innings at third base, a demanding position, and one where I think he was a pretty solid, steady defender.
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
So does WAR give them negative value for defense or is it just zero. IMO if they are being compared to players who play defense then a negative mark is needed.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Seems like the right thing to do. The question is how much?
I’m sure there is a list of positional adjustments. One of you nerbs has the link handy. I know it.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Here it is.
So DH is only .5 worse than playing 1B? I don’t know about that.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
5 runs worse
The logic is to assume that an average DH would be, if he played defense, one of the worst 1B in the majors, which would be somewhere around 10 runs below the average 1B.
They then get 5 runs back because (and this an important point that people tend to forget) DHing is really hard. Just ask Pat Burrell. The average DH would hit better if he got to play the field.
I can grasp comparing the DH to one of the worst 1B and giving them 10 runs below average. How are they quantifying the ‘really hard’ part of DH’ing that gives them 5 runs back?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
The math is in The Book, which I haven’t read.
But I would assume they just looked at the offensive stats of players who split time between DH and the field.
Thanks for the insight anyway.
I knew that positional adjustments existed but didn’t know the DH had one.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
The DH adjustment is "only" five runs off of 1B
Because of how difficult it is to hit off the bench or hit when you haven’t been fielding.
It’s based off of Andy Dolphin’s work regarding pinch-hitting (I think) which can be found here.
If you want to know the process of positional adjustments, this thread from The Book blog (especially that comment) is a good place to start.
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
That thread is an interesting read. However, they don’t really quantify giving the DH and extra .5 adjustment other than ‘DH is hard.’
There is this from the BP article:
What can we conclude from all this? Simply put, when a pinch hitter comes in, you should expect him to do significantly worse than if he were a starter, so a substitution that would look good on paper may actually cost you runs. Managers beware!
I don’t take exception that an allowance is made for the DH but the .5 just seems arbitrary.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Also, I have a gripe with 1B being rated so low. I don’t believe their ability to receive throws from infielders is taken into account. If it were it seems that 1B defense would be valued much higher since their opportunities would increase quiet a bit.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
It’s not about opportunities to make a play, it’s about opportunities to fail to make a play. 1B receive thousands of throws a year, yes – but how many does the average 1B drop? 2 a year? So a perfect throw-receiving 1B would only make 2 more outs than the average one. It just doesn’t have a big impact on the game.
It’s not about dropping easy throws but more about receiving bad throws. Are there any statistics on the average number of digs a 1B has to make?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I guess I pretty much ignored your first sentence there:
It’s not about opportunities to make a play, it’s about opportunities to fail to make a play
Perhaps my beef is with the entire premise of how those rankings are calculated then. I’ve seen it mentioned that catcher’s defensive stats are suspect due to intangibles. Perhaps 1B should be given some similar consideration since 1B and Catchers are the only two positions who’s ability to handle a throw is constantly tested.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Is this Tango’s website? I don’t see anything on 1B fielding. Of course, that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
here's one study
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/first-basemen-scoops/
I wish it mattered a lot because it’s my one true baseball skill.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
I found this interesting:
So before you start opining about how your favorite first baseman is so great defensively because he "saves so many errors," consider that scooping ability is probably worth less than a ¼ of total defensive ability or value at first base. Fielding grounders is at least 75% of the package and "scooping" is the rest.
I think that they might be mistaken in minimizing the effect of scooping. If by < 1/4 we can assume it is close to 1/4 then I think it should at least be considered. Especially since it is a skill other positions (other than catcher) generally don’t have to use.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
In fact, it appears that the spread in talent between the best and worst "scoopers" at first base is on the order of 2-3 runs, plus or minus (a 4-6 run spread)
In other words, even if assume that any player who isn’t a 1B would be terrible at scooping balls, that would only make him 2-3 runs worse than average. So even if we are underrating how hard it is to play 1B, it is only by 2-3 runs.
And, of course, there’s really no reason to think that the average non-1B would be that terrible at scooping balls – 1B generally become 1B because they can’t play anything else, not because they have amazing 1B skills. They do tend to be tall, which helps, but except for that, I doubt they are better at scooping balls than the average player.
I’m sure there are other position players who have great scooping ability but my gripe is that the 1B position requires it while other positions don’t (for the most part).
As far as I can tell 1B positional adjustment doesn’t take this into account.
I’m not trying to say that 1B should be adjusted the same as SS or anything I just think it is underrated.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Why should it take it into account, though? If scooping at a decent level isn’t hard for major league players, then I don’t see why players should get extra credit for having to do it.
I think it should because it is a skill required of 1B but not other positions.
IMO it’s like an extra task at their job that nobody else they work with has to do.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Outfielders have to sprint.
Isn’t that figured into UZR with their range?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Yes, because it has an effect on the game. The difference between Ichiro and Dunn, or Crawford and Ramirez, just in terms of their running speed, has a huge effect on their game.
Scooping isn’t part of UZR because it makes close to no difference. At the major league level, it’s essentially a non-issue.
Fielding grounders is at least 75% of the package and “scooping” is the rest.
If scooping is 25% of the job I think it should be counted.
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He said at least.
Anyway, I mean, I don’t see the big deal. It’s a 2 run difference, at the extremes. For most players it would be even less.
I’m not trying to make a big deal. I’m just saying that IMO 1B defense is underrated.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I don’t see how you’re arguing that, to be honest. You’re arguing that some 1B (who are bad at scooping) are overrated, and some (who are good at scooping) are underrated. But, as a group, they stay the same.
They shouldn’t just randomly get credit for having to scoop balls, just like OF don’t get credit for having to run around. They get credit for how well they run around, but they don’t just get a bonus for running.
I am saying that, relative to other positions, 1B is deemed easier than it really is.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
OK
But I honestly don’t see how you’re arguing that, or why you think including scoops in UZR rating would make 1B look harder.
We’ll have to agree to disagree here.
It’s a pretty learnable skill for any infielder past the little league level, is my guess.
Even John Bowker (the worst defensive 1B I have ever seen) wasn’t too bad at scooping. He was bad at fielding groundballs and backing up the correct player on throws from the outfield.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
So he would probably agree with me!
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Also
Everyone should remember that the positional adjustments on the 12.5 runs C to -17.5 runs DH scale is not really fixed in stone, nor is it really precise. It’s just an easy-to-remember approximation of positional adjustments. I think Rally’s (on bb-ref) formulation of WAR is generated year-by-year, but I haven’t read up on his methodology in a while.
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
Thanks for all of the info :D
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
But really, in HOF discussions, I think we can just compare him to the great hitters who really couldn’t field at all. I mean, should we really give Ramirez any credit for insisting on playing the field all this time? He wasn’t helping his team by doing that
But you aren’t looking through my prism of hate for the DH.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
by jhiat00 on Dec 29, 2010 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I can’t stand the DH, actually. But I absolutely love those high-AVG, high-OBP types. I have irrational love for Chipper Jones, for example. And don’t even get me started on Mauer.
I like both of those guys. Of course Bonds was a DH candidate at the end of his career too.
Even though Barry was a liability in LF I would rather a team have to chose that in order to keep his bat than just hiding him on the bench and hitting him 5th.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I remember you saying something like “Mauer is the best player in baseball today.”
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
GIVE HIM TIME!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
But because he did actually play the field we have some idea about how bad he really was, which you can’t say about a career DH.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
The problem I have with using that comparison is in the case of a HOF candidate who became a full time DH because he probably couldn’t stay healthy playing the field everyday (Martinez?, Thome?) and thus could not have been a HOF worthy hitter without being a DH. If both leagues had the DH, then maybe this wouldn’t be an issue for me. Should a player go into the HOF if they could not have been a HOFer in both of the major leagues?
I don’t think it matters that both leagues don’t have the DH. If the hypothetical player who has a HoF bat needs to DH to stay healthy, there is a job waiting for him in the AL.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
It wasn't all Martinez's decision to play DH
I believe Lou Pinella, his manager, said to Edgar after his umpteenth injury, “You’re never playing third base again,” and that was that.
Also, consider the fact that the Mariners left Edgar languishing in the minors for a long time because they had a third baseman blocking him.
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by Murray, Present on Dec 29, 2010 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
Didn't Edgar get hit in the face fielding at third one time?
I thought I had read that somewhere (maybe Tim Kurkijan’s book).
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
What about when HOF voters are choosing between DH and non-DH players?
Don’t they have to rank their votes? If so I don’t think that is very fair. If it is simply a matter of saying yes/no to each player I guess it doesn’t really make a difference.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
The thing is...
We can surmise that Martinez “probably couldn’t stay healthy playing the field everyday”, but in truth, we really don’t know that he “could not have been a HOF worthy hitter without being a DH”. In the end, we’re resorting to conjecture rather than looking at what actually happened. I can just as easily imagine that, had he played in the 50’s and 60’s, Martinez would have found a way to keep playing, and that his manager would’ve found a way to pencil Edgar’s name in the lineup at 3B or 1B, and he would’ve put up similar numbers to the HOF-worthy ones he put up.
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
counterpoint
pitchers.
No AL pitchers in the HOF!
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
They should have to be teamed up with a DH.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
LARRRRRRYYYYYYY Wokker
le bon homme
And the worst part, those fukin’ douchenozzles over at the MCC get to lord this over us.
I'd go
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Larry Walker
Kevin Brown
In no particular order.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
shouldn’t be too hard for him to get in
you ever been on a real shrimpin' boat?
no, but i've been on a real big boat
Definitely not a hard member.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Similar list to Grant
Except Walker and Olerud are in the “probably in” section, and I’m having a hard time thinking of an argument against Larkin.
It’s more of a playing time thing. He played more than 140 games four times, and that was with 143, 142, and 143 games played in three of those seasons. But a good Cookyman smackdown could make me think twice.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
I just tend to be very forgiving when it comes to playing time. The park thing is tough – on the one hand it’s hard to believe that the park adjusted stats aren’t punishing him for Coors enough – in 2000 he hit .309/.409/.506 and got a 110 OPS+. And it’s also clear he was a great hitter without Coors – his numbers were really good with the Expos and Cardinals.
But on the other hand, well, Coors really was a joke in those days, and Walker had better (park adjusted) numbers in his mid-late 30’s at Coors than he had in his mid-late 20’s with the Expos. Maybe he just peaked late. I don’t know.
I think, yeah
But the park-adjusted stats really like him too.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
But his counting stats got docked for being at Olympic Stadium
a la Tim Raines… I think
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
HIS LAST NAME SOUNDS TOO MUCH LIKE A BIRD
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
AND IT CHEATS THE GAME
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
BIRDS CAN FLY, WHICH GIVES HIM AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
Yes, Grant, please do explain.
/crosses arms, taps toe irritably
by mrs. owlcroft on Dec 29, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
Forgot about him. He’s not the I’d vote for him but I could see an argument list.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t care what his stats say. John Olerud is not a Hall of Famer. There’s just no way.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
This baseball thing is pretty cool
I think he’s just below the standard, per the graphs here:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/12/21/1888629/the-2011-hall-of-fame-ballot-graphically
It’s closer than I expected, though.
Olerud was a fantastic hitter. Robbed of an MVP in 1993.
He’s probably not a HOFer, I guess, but he’s got a much stronger case than someone like Vizquel, for example.
Dude wears batting helmet on the bases. That’s a gamer.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
That's because his doctor insisted.
Dude has a plate in his head.
by mrs. owlcroft on Dec 30, 2010 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
Mine would be the same as Grant's too
with a distinct lack of enthusiasm. Somehow I don’t really get into this year’s crop.
"It's too LATE to stop now!" - John Lee Hooker
Huh
I’m watching the MLB network atm, and they’re doing one of their top-9 lists, and this one is for closers.
They just did a segment on Lee Smith, and when they interviewed him, he was wearing a Giants hat, which confused me because he never pitched for us.
Turns out Lee Smith is a roving pitching instructor in our minor league system. That’s pretty cool.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He knew he’d barely crack the all-time Giants bullpen, what with Quisenberry, Bedrosian, Gossage, and Righetti in the mix, so he stayed away.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
Don't forget Wilhelm!
Proud member of the Adopt-a-Giant program (Aaron Rowand)
I remember reading about that in some spring training reports a few years ago.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
New voting rule
Every vote for Mattingly or Olerud is also counted as a vote for Will Clark, who under this rule and only this rule is again eligible for election.
Proud member of the Adopt-a-Giant program (Aaron Rowand)
This
I want Will in the HOF and I want it NOW!!! and don’t confuse me with facts and number stuff, I copied his swing in high school and I’m sure it got me a couple hits just thru intimidation.
Can we also include Lou Whitaker?
He matches up comparably or better with Ryne Sandberg (among others) yet got dropped pretty quickly off the HOF ballot.
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
Speaking of matching up well with Ryno (from Ben Badler's twitter)
Link.
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
OT: Can we talk niners GM search?
I’d go to niners nation but… nevermind.
Who’s down to riot if they hire Baalke?
Don't be ridikulos
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
It's just not the same level of discussion that goes on here
I get frustrated over there
Same with me and Arrowhead Pride. Pretty good front page writers but seems like many discussions are just not as interesting to me.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
it's the same with Silver & Black Pride
The actual writers are very good, but the commenters are…. well, Raider fans. They speak a form of English.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
/glares at RDreamer
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
but it's true
And I am a huge Raider fan, but you need a translator and a Valium for most of the stuff posted there.
Unlike Niners Nation, most of the posters there get along unless they are fans of another team such as the Chargers, Broncos, Chiefs, Niners, Seahawks, or Steelers. Raider Nation is unified. They are simply unified in typos and poor grammar, something a pedant and spelling/syntax Gestapo like myself will not abide, engage in or stand for.
If you check out Silver & Black Pride, you may notice prediction threads every week for the Raider game. RaiderDamus makes a prediction every week concerning what the score will be, and when he predicts the Raiders to lose most of the extreme homer Raider fans disagree with him and laugh and call him names and won’t let him play any Raider games, etc. RaiderDamus is almost always right and almost always close to the actual score, in fact he correctly guessed the score of the Raiders-Cardinals game earlier this year. You may also notice that RaiderDamus is none other than me.
So quit your glaring.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
I am a huge Raider fan
That’s why I was glaring. As a KC fan it is an automatic response. At least we have a shared love for the Giants!
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Oh.
You like the Chiefs.
Well, uh, congrats on your impending loss to New England in the playoffs.
/sniff
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
If they made it far enough to play NE I would be ecstatic. They haven’t won a playoff game in 17 years. It’s looking like NYJ in the first round.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I should have said,“You are correct. And stop calling me Joe Montana.”
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
You’re not Joe Montana? Oh man, this changes things.
I guess as long as xanthan really is Paul Hamm, my world won’t be turned too far upside down.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
Paul Hamm is a computer?
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
No human could perform those feats of physical precision.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
I’m imagining Morgan Hamm with a :( reading that.
They might be Giants...but they are definitely WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
"And what was once torture for an entire city became a magical ride into an Orange October."
Paul kicked Morgan’s ass in Ninja Warrior too.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
I feel like a football discussion that shifts into men’s gymnastics references is something I’d see only on MCC. And that’s why I like it.
The only man in the world who would buy a Brian McCann swimsuit calendar.
Huge Raider fan here too. I was never impressed with the community over at SBP. Maybe the literate fans need to participate more.
The Raiders are one of the teams of my “yout” and the 12 or 13 year old in me is still mad at Davis for moving my team to LA. I mean LA!!
FtF: Welcome to Opposite Season!
McC: Don't get it? Try the McWiki wiki.
I was too young then to really hate LA
But I knew in my soul the Raiders belonged in Oakland, and was pleased when they moved back.
I’m doing my part to raise the level of discourse at S&BP as it is, IMO, the best Raider forum around.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
That is an unforgivable crime.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
In my mind, continuing to support the Raiders after Big Al moved them to LA is a mistake.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
You should become a Chiefs fan!
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
In my mind, continuing to support the Dallas Texans after Lamar Hunt moved them to Kansas City is a mistake.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Hunt totally screwed Dallas over
They haven’t had a good team there since then.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Yes, but Al also moved them back and broke LA's heart
Which means he is awesome for screwing Los Angeles. We should support all his further endeavors.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
To me this sounds like domestic abuse victims that refuse to dump their abuser and instead tell everyone how much they’ve changed to justify the continued relationship.
LA doesn’t give enough of a damn about football to have their heart broken. In fact I suspect it was a bit of a relief to the non-baggy pants wearing set since the reputation for Raiders fans’ thuggishness had become such an embarrassment.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
OK, that’s a little harsh… but man do I not like the Raiders.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
I haven’t checked around, but I think this is probably pretty common with football blogs regardless of team. Football demands a great deal of intellect from a lot of people, but not specifically the fans.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
actually
I think it may rather have to do with blog commenters in general. Most people don’t quite have the allegiance to grammar, spelling, and good sense that we do around here.
This isn’t to pick on Raider fans, they’re a passionate and loyal bunch and I am proud to be amongst their ranks. This is humans as a whole, particularly lazy English speakers.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
On further review, I think the problem at Niners Nation is that there is one guy who just wastes every thread bickering with two other guys. It’s pretty obnoxious.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 31, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
If you break it down to its most immediate components, I suppose so.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Jan 2, 2011 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
As far as I can tell, it’s a lot of sofa-shouting and everybody hates each other.
Look out. I'm having a thought.
by waelwulf on Dec 29, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
ProFootballTalk ProFootballTalk
by androog
Lombardi: “The 49ers are going to hire Trent Baalke” http://bit.ly/i3VV6w
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
I wouldn’t actually mind Baalke. I think he could be a good GM. What does bother me is that Jed went through this whole farce of searching for the best candidate. If you want to hire Baalke, just hire him. Whatever.
He is obligated by the league to stage at least a Potemkin GM search.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
I read that as ‘Pokemon’ GM search.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
So this must have been the interview process
“Baalke, use tail whip!”
A real owner would have had him use earthquake.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
Do you mean the Rooney Rule? Because if they just interviewed Softli and that was it, everybody would know it was Baalke’s job. However, Jed just interviewed Lombardi. Again, I would prefer that Jed actually interviews a lot of people and gets the best guy. I just don’t like this giant PR scam if he is only looking at Baalke in the first place.
Baalke is part of the dysfunction
I hate this
What do you dislike about Baalke besides the fact that he is already part of the organization (a big “besides,” I know). Personally, I would rather have a new guy come in fresh and do it, but Baalke could be a good GM, I think.
What do you think is wrong with it? (A lot of the things mentioned in that article aren’t true if you include the 2010 draft. Two O-linemen in the 1st, a linebacker in the 3rd. I also think it’s rather unfair to judge him on picks where he wasn’t actually in control of the draft.) Last year was probably controlled by him, and I’m pretty fine with the results. Davis and Iupati will both be very good in the next couple years, and Mays and Bowman look like they could be starting caliber with some development. Grabbing rather useful guys in later rounds like Williams, Byham, Dixon and Adams make for a pretty solid draft IMO. The lack of talent development is the main problem, especially at the QB position. I’m personally more interested in who the new coach ends up being rather than the GM.
The 49ers are always hiring from their oldboy network: has-beens, or first timers, or guys to learn on the job. Just once I’d like them to go after market-coveted personnel with a history of success.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Dec 29, 2010 7:04 PM PST up reply actions
Get out of the city limits!
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
I think Baalke will be a fine GM. That is why the Niners should absolutely not hire him.
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Promote him, I mean
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
I don't get the HOF
It’s just a pseudo country club for old retired ballplayers. Voted in or out by their media friends or enemies (yes the same baseball writers we all like to dump on because they are idiots), using totally subjective criteria. I’ve been to the HOF, nice museum, cool displays, but it’s not the heart of baseball. Baseball is a team sport, not a showcase for a few superstars to strut their stuff. It takes a team to win a title or championship regardless of having potential HOF players or not. I love baseball. The HOF not so much.
I think individual accomplishments are a really important part of the game, though. It’s one of the things that frustrated me so much about having to hear all this “band of misfits” crap about the Giants. “Oh, there’s no superstar. It’s not like when Bonds was here.”
It’s a great conceit, but I don’t think it’s fair to what those guys did. Aubrey Huff was only one of the most valuable players in the entire league last season. He deserves to be recognized individually as more than some misfit jigsaw piece. Andres Torres was only the best centerfielder in the game for most of the season. But no, that doesn’t count for much. He was just one scrapper out of many! Buster Posey wasn’t just one of the best rookies we’ve seen in a long time, he was one of the best catchers in baseball. Matt Cain did something in the playoffs that only like four people in history have done. Cody Ross performed feats of superstardom in the playoffs. Madison Bumgarner did something only like two other people in history have done in the playoffs.
These guys individually played like superstars throughout the season and/or postseason. They weren’t just a group of heterogenous piles of average that happened to congeal into a championship.
They didn’t do it all alone, but they do deserve individual credit for the things that they did alone.
Oh, and Tim Lincecum is a superstar. He’s, like, the new Barry Bonds. Except sassier.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
And this also applies to the Hall of Fame.
Forgot to get back on topic at the end there.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions
Bring it on home!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions
Because, uh, we gotta go home.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
We're going to the ship
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
"And this also applies to the Hall of Fame"
You lost me there. The great play by many of the Giants player resulted in a clear objective goal being met, winning the WS, although any given baseball game has a little luck, good or bad breaks to add to the mix. The HOF is a collection of ex player that baseball sports writers subjectively vote in or out. Is there even a published criteria for how a vote should be cast?
It used to be a paper ballot you filled out but they might do it electronically nowadays.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks for clearing that up.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
I think individual accomplishments are a really important part of the game, though.
The entire post was about recognizing individual the accomplishments.
I don’t disagree with you that the way the Hall gets filled is wacky, but I do disagree with the idea that takes up the second half of your comment: that individual accomplishments from individual players don’t deserve the sam recognition as whatever act of synergy creates a championship team. A collection of individual accomplishments creates a championship team. And the players who perform them should have some platform for continued recognition.
How many people will remember that Aubrey Huff was actually one of the most valuable players in the entire league last season? Not just a good player. Not just a good season. Not just a great Giant, Quite literally one of the best active players in the whole league. I’d bet not many outside of xanthan. He’ll be remembered largely as a misfit with a fire in his eyes who brought the team together… and I think that’s kind of sad.
The Hall of Fame just gives individual players the kind of recognition that I’m talking about on a career sort of level, and I think they deserve that.
But the voting process itself is clearly messed up.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
But, as we’ve seen before (see Eckstein, David) there are established narratives that are easy to hold on to and repeat. “Group of misfits bands together for victory” is tried and true. It’s easy to sell. Something more nuanced and complicated is, of necessity, unpopular because popular is simple.
Same with HOF votes, I think. Steroids is never going to play out to anyone’s satisfaction in the HOF, because there’s no easy handle for it other than “cheating.”
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
What he said
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
It’s a matter of writing headlines-the media wants to twist everything into a simple story. If you took those writers who said that the Giants don’t have superstars and ask them if Tim Lincecum is a superstar, they’d probably say yes.
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
I think it’s kind of strange how Tim Lincecum has been elevated to superstardom. Obviously he’s a great pitcher, but I feel like the nation tends to overrate him compared to other players on the Giants. Not too long ago I read a post on a blog about a hypothetical NL Cy Young ballot that had Lincecum ranked fifth, when he was pretty clearly not the best pitcher on his own team.
"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"
Two Cy Youngs will do that.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
0_o
someone with more free time than sense.
Itaque, in anno MMX Gigantes San Francisconis Seriem Mundi vicerunt.
Ryan Rohlinger: world champion.
by shanghaijim on Dec 29, 2010 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t really think it was clear. I’m pretty sure he led the team in fWAR.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yes, but xFIP.
"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"
I think EP was saying that despite leading the team in fWAR
OMG HIS xFIP!!!
as a joke
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
But
Lincecum had the best xFIP on the team.
And it was 5th best in the majors.
There is no way in hell that Tim Lincecum isn’t the best pitcher on this team. No matter what metric you use.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
As a joke!
As a joke, I tell ya!
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
Because in his first two full seasons he...
Won 2 Cy Youngs.
2 Strikeout titles
Was 1st in BAA in 2008 and 2nd in 2009
Was 2nd in ERA both years
Those are the sorts of things that elevate you to super-stardom.
And this year, even though it was a “bad” year, he…
Won his 3rd strikeout title
Was the play-off MVP
…
Now, is putting him 5th on the Cy Young ballot this year overrating him? Yes. Matt Cain says “hello”.
But is he overrated overall? I doubt it.
If anything…I actually think us die hard fans might underrate him. We spend so much time drawing attention to the others, especially Matty, that I think we sometimes forget exactly how good Timmy is. And that is very, very, very good.
"Today, it's as if McCovey's line drive finally went through. And the earthquake didn't happen. And Spiezio struck out. And Snow was safe."
SL for your sanity, but it cannot contain the awesomeness within
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
by jctGamer on Dec 29, 2010 11:51 PM PST up reply actions 12 recs
Apparently
The Giants made a ML offer to Andrew Miller
.Ultimately, Miller decided he was most comfortable with the Red Sox, even though Rodgers admitted he received major-league offers from at least three teams, including the Texas Rangers and San Francisco Giants
Weird.
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
EAST COAST BIAS
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
That’s surprising. I would’ve thought nothing more than a minor-league deal with a ST invite.
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Dec 29, 2010 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, same here
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Maybe to compete with Boston. Just in terms of Miller, a minor-league deal made the most sense to me.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 29, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
Top tier:
McGwire
2nd tier:
the four grant listed & Larkin who I put on the same level as Bagwell.
Then whatever.
I think McGwire is an interesting case in that he was somewhat one-dimensional but is also pretty much THE home run hitter from his era. From 1989 until his retirement, he was the guy you thought of when it came to hitting home runs. It’s the Hall of Fame. Not the hall of statistics.
This leads to Bert who I believe deserves to be there based on stats. But I can see why he isn’t there. Same thing with Bagwell. Larkin, Alomar and Raines I think all deserve to be there based on being the best in the era at 2b, SS, and other than Rickey..the best leadoff hitter.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Dec 29, 2010 2:32 PM PST reply actions
While I mostly agree with you, this is a little odd:
It’s the Hall of Fame. Not the hall of statistics.
This leads to Bert who I believe deserves to be there based on stats.
Proud Adoptive Parent of no one, cause my son left me.
I still think Obi-wan wanted them to hook up & raise some genetic freaks with midichlorians firing out of their ass. - ResDog
THE GIANTS WON THE WORLD SERIES
It was an inconsistent distracted post. To clarify, I think McGwire deserves to be there not because of his stats but because of who he was as a player. He is legendary. I think that should be the #1 criteria of the hall of fame. Blyleven I think does deserve to make it in based on how he did over his career as compared to other players. But he is in on stats and again, I think that is #2.
Hopefully that makes more sense.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Dec 29, 2010 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
Bagwell, Raines, Alomar, Blyleven, Martinez, Olerud
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Dec 29, 2010 2:37 PM PST reply actions
Now MLB network is doing a special on 'most unbreakable records'
They just did DiMaggio’s hitting streak.
Did you know that during his hitting streak, from May 15 to July 16, DiMaggio hit .408/.463/.717?
And did you know that during that exact same time period, Ted Williams hit .412/.540/.684
But DiMaggio had the streak, and he won the MVP that year with an OPS 200 points lower than Williams.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
didn’t know that, but what did they say was the #1 unbreakable? I think it’s Vandemeer no-hitter streak of 2. Who’s gonna throw three no-hitters in a row to break it? Besides Cain I mean.
I think Ripken’s record is silly. It is very breakable..you just have to care more about your record than the teams success for many many years. I believe he would have been a much better player had he taken days off and healed on occasion.
I think the most unbreakable record is Cy Young’s 300+ losses. I can’t see any pitcher being given that many opportunities to lose games ever again.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Dec 29, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions
I somewhat doubt Ripken’s teams had anyone who could have provided more value at SS for the bulk of his career. I don’t think he was hurting his teams by playing every day (except maybe at the end of his career, but by then The Streak was happening whether anyone liked it or not).
What really makes it tough to beat is to play that many years and not have to hit the DL at least once.
There are a lot of records in baseball that won't be broken
Mostly because of how the game has changed. Young’s loss record, like you mention. Also, his wins record. Innings pitched records. .440 single season batting average. And etc.
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
Wilt Chamberlain's record is unbreakable
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
What was it? 101 points? Amazing.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
It was 10,000 women
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Both of these are unbreakable
But yeah, I meant the women.
The cool thing about the 100 points was that the game never actually ended. After Wilt scored his 100th point all the fans stormed the court to celebrate with Wilt, and the game was called.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
I wonder how many times he got a hit in his final at bat of the game
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 7:20 PM PST up reply actions
This is a pretty apt comparison, I'd say
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
Ted Williams got jobbed out of so much in his career
Including two seasons to our war with Communism.
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
did they mention this one
Sewell holds the record for the lowest strikeout rate in major league history, striking out on average only once every 63 at-bats, and the most consecutive games without a strikeout, at 115.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
Sewell-if he's the guy I'm thinking of
Took over as the Indians SS after their primary SS got killed by a pitch, right?
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
yeah
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
who was the only major league player to ever be killed by a ball during a game
and one of only 2 to die from injuries suffered during a game
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
I can’t believe players weren’t required to wear helmets before the 50’s. It sounds absolutely sounds crazy. How did players not die every year?
Olerud = ultimate pansy
"Campeones." - Andres Torres
Please follow my Twitter
by Murray, Present on Dec 29, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think the ability to survive a fastball to the skull is a matter of toughness
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
I certainly is a matter of the toughness of your skull.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 31, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
I read a book about that
Apparently the pitcher-Carl Mays-wasn’t liked by anyone
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Carl Mays
was a submarine pitcher and nailed Indians SS Ray Chapman in the head with a rising fastball, and he never regained consciousness. Joe Sewell took over as the regular shortstop and the Indians won the World Series that year. He went on to have a hall of fame career, including setting numerous records for lack of strike-outs, including only striking out three times during the entire 1932 season!
And speaking of records likely to never be broken: Ray Chapman holds the record for most sacrifice bunts in a season with 67 in 1917.
Chris Gloor: my lefty is bigger than your lefty
by crazedcrustacean on Dec 29, 2010 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
The stigma of that accident made Mays badly underrated for the rest of his career, and it precluded him from any Hall of Fame consideration (who would enshrine the pitcher who killed a man?), despite his excellent career: 39.6 WAR pitching and 8.0 WAR batting, despite spending his entire career as a pitcher. Compare to Jesse Haines, who was two years younger and was inducted to the Hall of Fame.
"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"
Definitely yes:
Blyleven
Bagwell
Alomar
Larkin
Less certain, but probably yes:
K. Brown (and he’s closer to the top group the more I look at him)
Raines
L. Walker
McGwire
E. Martinez
Trammell
Close, but no:
Palmeiro
Olerud
McGriff (these guys were good, but just a bit below better 1B of their time)
Morris (I do give him extra credit for the postseason heroics, but it’s still not enough)
It's tough for me to understand
How you can be a yes on McGwire but a no on Palmeiro. Mark was a better hitter, yes, but Palmeiro was a much better fielder (gold gloves aside) and he has 3,000 hits.
Palmeiro will be the first ever non-banned player with 3K hits not to make the hall. I think he’s good enough.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Peak Value
Palmeiro is more of a “career value” guy (almost never led his league in anything), while McGwire is known for a sky-high peak (led the majors in HR 5 times, SLG three times, OPS twice, BB twice). And I think players SHOULD get more credit for having a higher peak, because that’s what helps teams win pennants. For me, peak value puts McGwire just on the right side of the line and Palmeiro just on the wrong side of it (and I suppose I am docking both of them a bit for the steroid thing, but that’s hard to quantify).
I certainly don’t think anyone is stupid for voting for Palmeiro; he’s probably the closest of the “No” group for me. It’s very close.
Incidentally, as to the argument about defense, it’s worth noting that McGwire was actually a very good defensive 1B in his youth — by B-R he ranked 1st in the AL at his position in Total Zone Runs in ‘89 and ’90. Palmeiro was better over the course of his career, but McGwire wasn’t a bad defender at all.
Palmeiro has like no peak. Never had a single year above 5.0 WAR. I think he’s over the line, but he’s 11th out of 10 for me this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I read that on BBTF and I didn’t look it up. Haha…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Sure, but consistency can be its own reward
Fangraphs has Rafael at more WAR than Mark. Imperfect, yes, but gives you an indication.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Yes, I don’t think there’s any question that Palmeiro is first and foremost a career candidate. I think both career and peak should be taken into account, which puts McGwire over him (slightly). Like I said, I think Palmeiro is HoF-worthy, he’s juts 11th ranked and you only get to pick 10 names.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
It's not the size of the dog in the fight
It’s the size of the fight in the dog.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I remember hearing of a law in some country that says that you’re allowed to have sex with an animal as long as you don’t eat it later.
That’s because you’re supposed to eat it before, amirite?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
oh dear
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 7:35 PM PST up reply actions
This reminds me, what is PETA’s stance on bestiality anyway?
someone with more free time than sense.
Itaque, in anno MMX Gigantes San Francisconis Seriem Mundi vicerunt.
Ryan Rohlinger: world champion.
Missionary.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
I did, briefly.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
Players do get points for consistency, in that those who have amassed a lot of impressive counting stats generally get in; longevity and consistently strong performance will do that.
However, when it comes to players who are roughly comparable on a career level (like McGwire and Palmeiro), I think it is fair to give an extra boost to players who had a higher peak. 5 excellent seasons are better than 8 pretty good seasons, because those 5 seasons give your team a better chance at winning a title. (I think Bill James ran a study on this and showed that the bias in Hall of Fame voting towards players who had a higher peak was justified.)
I wouldn’t be upset if Palmeiro made it to the Hall, but I do think it’s fair to rank him below the other candidates I’d vote in above him.
I didn’t watch any of these guys very much. I just have some random memories of them at the end of their careers. Like, Jeff Bagwell hitting a homerun off a changeup. I don’t remember who was pitching. The name Michael Tucker pops into my head, but I’m fairly certain thats not correct. I also remember watching SportsCenter and seeing a webgem where Fred McGriff hit a groundball and the shortstop made a terrific play, then proceeded to make a sandwich, eat the sandwich, and take a nap before throwing to first and barely getting McGriff out by a few yards. And I remember that stretch of a bajillion games where Kirk Rueter gave up a bajillion runs every game.
Weird.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 29, 2010 2:51 PM PST reply actions
I remember McGriff’s swing. He did this thing where the bat would swing over his head at the end.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7143489
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
I didn't think Cop Rock was all that bad.
The only man in the world who would buy a Brian McCann swimsuit calendar.
How can a courtroom musical series fail?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
I think I’m just a sucker for musicals. I wish our office would spontaneously break into song on occasion.
The only man in the world who would buy a Brian McCann swimsuit calendar.
The first time I saw it I was just channel surfing. After several minutes of waiting for the skit to end, I changed the channel.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
How about Fish Police?
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
I, too,
liked Cop Rock.
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 29, 2010 6:03 PM PST up reply actions
It wasn't all that bad
I think the problems were twofold. First, it’s true that the show wasn’t all that bad, but it also wasn’t all that good, either. There were too many moments that didn’t really work. Too much just seemed a little bit forced and labored. In my opinion. The other problem was that most people either hated it or couldn’t be bothered to watch it. It was a tough mix, really—the type of audience that might go for a gritty, hard-bitten Bochco cop show, weren’t generally the type that would go in for musicals. And vice versa.
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
BTW
If Bagwell gets in, he’ll become the first player I remember watching play to make it to the HOF.
I’m getting old.
/passes cooky the Geritol
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
Whippersnapper!
Why, I remember the heady days of Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn! Used to have to watch them on 16×9 aspect ratios, we did!
I had to go back and look up the first player elected who I could actually remember seeing play in a live game or on TV. It was Nolan Ryan in 1999.
Yep, Nolan Ryan and George Brett for me, too. Saw them both in Oakland – different games, obviously. Only two A’s games I ever went to.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
All of you!!!
Off my goddam lawn!!!!
/faints from effort
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 29, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
Good grief!
Did no one else here see McCovey play? (I’m afraid to ask about a real old-timer like Mays.)
by mrs. owlcroft on Dec 29, 2010 6:13 PM PST up reply actions
I saw McCovey play when he played for San Diego. We were living in Yuma at the time and would drive across for heat relief. Also saw Hank Aaron.
FtF: Welcome to Opposite Season!
McC: Don't get it? Try the McWiki wiki.
yes
and IIRC he won the game in extra frames with a single. 1978.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions
I saw Mays, McCovey and Marichal
and a lot more. Mays was in his last years and still damn good. MCovey was smooth. Marichal was amazing, god, that leg kick.
You kids have MOW my lawn.
"It's too LATE to stop now!" - John Lee Hooker
First saw him on an A's telecast during his brief stint in Oakland
then saw him hit a couple of homers in person at that old stadium the Giants used to play in off the Bayshore Freeway. I remember looking forward to him coming back to the Giants because my older siblings had been telling me how great he was.
Hitting 74 on the radar gun but hitting my spots.
by VidaWantsYourCar on Dec 29, 2010 6:30 PM PST up reply actions
I think technically, I did. I don’t remember it, though.
I’m old enough to remember Jack Clark and Joel Youngblood, and that’s old enough.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
I saw Barry Bonds play
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 7:46 PM PST up reply actions
I think Ricky was the first player I remember watching
Him or Bonds
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
McGwire
ugh.
career .263 hitter – dude hit dingers…admittedly enhanced dingers.
Bonds was HOF before the explosion of HRs – my question is: would we even be talking about McGwire if it wasn’t for the HRs?
I can see the argument that “the greatest HR hitter of a generation” perhaps deserves a place in the HOF. I might even agree with that if I’m drunk.
I just don’t remember him being a particularly well rounded PLAYER.
but yeah – dingers.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 29, 2010 3:03 PM PST reply actions
would we even be talking about McGwire if it wasn’t for the HRs?
Your question is basically – Would we be talking about McGwire if he was a bad hitter?
Well, uh, no.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Would we even be reading this website if Grant was a bloviating, humorless hack?
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
what if I came here for a bloviating, humorless hack?
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
That .394 is pretty shiny…
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
79th all-time!
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 29, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
Mike Hargrove and John Kruk are not impressed. ;-)
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 29, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions
Well, 79 is still pretty good!
Seriously, though, I just don’t think a low AVG means that much in McGwire’s case. OBP gives you a better idea of what AVG is supposed to measure, which is a player’s ability to get himself on base consistently, and McGwire did that. That he didn’t do it on actual hits is not especially relevant. He did things that brought value to his team.
A .415 career wOBA is good, right?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think AVG means that much in the case of any player who was good enough to be considered for the HoF. You just don’t get to HoF considerations with a low OBP unless either your defense is good enough that your offense doesn’t matter, or the people voting are dumb.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
Well that was awfully considerate of him.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 8:15 PM PST up reply actions
Moat votes for Larry Walker!
Dude was a beast in the MVP Baseball video game series.
Hitler was a Dodgers fan.
by The Nick on Dec 29, 2010 3:07 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Bah. Stupid iPhone autocorrect. Moat should be more.
Hitler was a Dodgers fan.
by The Nick on Dec 29, 2010 3:08 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
That’s hilarious
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 29, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
OT - Ehire Adrianza twitter
Anyone out there with an understanding of Espanol care to translate his two tweets from this morning?
- - Hermanos periodistas hay que hacer una campaña en contra de la celebracion a patadas de los peloteros por los niños que tanto los ADMIRAN
google translate – Brothers journalists to do a campaign against the celebration of the players kicked the children who admire them both
- - PELOTEROS no a las patadas en los juegos ustedes son profesionales
google translate – Dung not kicking in games you are professional
and, yeah, totally wish I took Spanish instead of Latin in High School.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 29, 2010 3:15 PM PST reply actions
High School Spanish wouldn’t have done you much good with this, glenallen.
“a patadas” is a “modismo” (a saying or expression) that means “in abundance.” Here, it indicates excessive celebration by ballplayers. Ehire’s syntax is a bit tortured in the first tweet, but he is saying that “writers who understand need to campaign against excessive celebrations by ballplayers that they so admire.”
The second: Ballplayers who don’t celebrate excessively in games, you are pros.
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 29, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry: in the first above, " . . . ballplayers that kids so admire."
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 29, 2010 6:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Gracias gallo del cielo!
and, I also like this kid!
49 Days!
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
I like this kid.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 7:55 AM PST up reply actions
Careful – I bet he’s trying to curry MCC favor so he can shoot up our community prospect ranks. Crafty he is.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
Mmmm… curry McCC flavor….
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
Edgar Martinez was a one tool player
But that is one ridiculously good tool. I’d vote for him.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
TWSS!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
If you vote in Tim Raines it is very hard to say that
Reggie Smith, Dwight Evans, Sherry Magee don’t also belong in the hall of fame. Personally, I believe they all should be in.
Similarly if you say Roberto Alomar should be in then you can’t count out Bobby Grich.
If Larkin and Trammell are in than so is Bill Dahlen.
Lastly if either Olerud or McGriff are in than Keith Hernandez and Dick Allen.
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 29, 2010 3:21 PM PST reply actions
On my ballot I would vote for
Tim Raines, Bert Blyleven, Larry Walker, Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Alan Trammell, Edgar Martinez and of course Jeff Bagwell.
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 29, 2010 3:25 PM PST reply actions
Good god I love Buster Posey
As I learned in our June phone call, Posey is serious about his baseball. So serious that, by the end of the season, Bochy found himself at ease seeking the rookie’s insight into how the pitcher on the mound was faring. Never was this more evident than in Game 3 of the World Series. Enigmatic lefty Jonathan Sánchez was on the hill, clearly gassed at the end of a long season. After Sánchez gave up a three-run homer in the second inning to Rangers first baseman Mitch Moreland, Guillermo Mota began warming up in the bullpen. But Posey believed he could coax a few more innings out of the southpaw. Chatting in the dugout between innings, Posey and Sánchez talked about how to proceed without the pitcher’s best fastball. "In that situation, you’re telling him, ‘This is not out of hand, just keep it right here,’ " Posey says. “He made adjustments. From the third inning on, we went away from the fastball.”
Instead of relying on the heater, a pitch Sánchez threw 65 percent of the time during the regular season, Posey called for off-speed stuff more than 60 percent of the game. He basically turned Sánchez into a junkballer for the rest of the night. Amazingly, the pitcher managed to make it into the fifth, allowing just one more run. It was the Giants’ lone loss of the Fall Classic, but the bullpen was saved from six innings of mop-up duty, keeping the relievers fresh for the rest of the serie
Obi-Wan Decker!
May in Fresno, lovely for the pitcher-handling tutorials. “Yes my young padawan, for the junk you must call when the fastball lagging is”.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 6:27 PM PST up reply actions
why Buster Posey is better than you
All this success makes it hard to believe he took up catching just four years ago. At Lee County High, in Leesburg, Ga., Posey played shortstop and pitched, but he stood out most on the mound. Before his senior year, he pitched in the World Junior Championship on a Team USA squad that featured future big leaguers Andrew McCutchen (Pirates), Ike Davis (Mets) and Justin Upton (Diamondbacks). He was named the Georgia Gatorade Player of the Year the next spring and graduated fourth in his class with a 3.938 GPA. “My parents set high standards,” says Posey, who picked up his nickname from his father, who was known as Buster in his youth. “It wasn’t okay if you got a B. You should shoot for high standards, and believe they’re obtainable.”
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, I see.
It’s right there.
This will not be my mother’s proudest moment.
Look out. I'm having a thought.
All-ACC Academic Team (2006 & 2007)…two-time member ACC Academic Honor Roll (2005-06, 2006-07)…President’s List Spring 2007 (4.0 GPA)…Dean’s List (Fall 2005, Fall 2007)…major is finance..
<href=“http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/posey_buster00.html” >
His major was Finance? Ooo, Buster is gonna make friends with all the Franklin/Templeton people in the Giants Investor’s Group and be King of Montgomery Street in 30 years. Or else own southwest Georgia. Or both.
"It's too LATE to stop now!" - John Lee Hooker
TWSS
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
of course
they only needed two more innings from the relievers the rest of the series
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Tim Raines is one of the most under-rated players in the history of baseball
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
Probably the most underrated is Gene Tenace, who I’ve never even heard of before today. One All-Star appearance, two 18th-place finishes in MVP votes, 1 HOF ballot (out of 503!), and he just happens to have A 136 CAREER OPS+ AS A CATCHER.
The guy must be one of the 5 best catchers of all times.
You hadn't heard of Gene Tenace?
He was a member of the 70s A’s dynasty.
Also, he wasn’t a catcher for half of his career, roughly. But, yeah, he was really good. Part of the reason was that a lot of his value was in his OBP. He often had low batting averages. In the 70s and early 80s, that was pretty much a guarantee of being under-rated.
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
The 70’s and early 80’s are a pretty huge hole in my baseball education. Partially because the Giants sucked back then.
This may boggle you, but I once heard that in the 70’s, Reggie Jackson hit three home runs in a single World Series game! Crazy!
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
On three consecutive pitches!
And the dude from Baseketball caught the third HR ball.
Hitler was a Dodgers fan.
by The Nick on Dec 30, 2010 4:27 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I wasn't trying to diss you. I don't know if you took it that way.
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
wait were you even born in the 70s? I thought you are like 20
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Wait I was led to believe you were 20 and lives in Israel
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
IT WAS A TRAP
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
YOU’RE 37, YOU LIVE IN OAKLAND AND THAT’S ALL THERE IS TO IT. NOW GO EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
who cares about that
what is he wearing right now? Let’s get real good information.
And no, I will not go into the kitchen for some iced tea. Suck it Stone Phillips.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
Cookyman's true identity
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
Tenace was a big favorite in my household in the 70’s, which is saying something as we were a Giants family. I remember my dad giving it the Italian pronunciation – ten-AH-chay.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve always heard it pronounced here like tennis.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
It was origianally Ten-a-chay
but the fans couldn’t pronounce it and Geno became Gene Tennis-anyone? Gene happily explained this during world series spotlights.
"It's too LATE to stop now!" - John Lee Hooker
Is audio part of MCC Premium?
THE THING IS, IT HAPPENED - 11/1/10
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Dec 29, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but it’s all Rush songs.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
If it's Italian
ten-AH-chay, like JD wrote.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
I believe he's from the city I'm currently in
Poway, CA
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
3rd all time
by wRC+
Also, holy crap Mickey Cochrane: BB/K ratio of 4.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
wow
best bb/k rate of all time goes to Joe Sewell, who clocks in at a mind numbing 7.39. 10.1 BB%, 1.6(!!!!!) K%
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
But could he hit dingerz?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
Not that it's not impressive
But K rates used to be really really low back then. They’ve been pretty much going up in a steady pace ever since baseball began.
that's true
walk rates were pretty low as well.
Here’s something else mind blowing: In a season in which he struck out 3 times, and had a BB/K rate over 13, he also had an 88 wRC+
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
really?
I didn’t really investigate it that throughly, but it seemed like a lot of the low-k guys were also low-bb guys
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
Also
I don’t know when walk rates started climbing, but it ended a long time ago – it’s been around ~8.5% for at least 30 years now. The whole SABR revolution had a huge impact on the way the game is watched and evaluated, but close to non on how it’s played.
The whole SABR revolution had a huge impact on the way the game is watched and evaluated, but close to non on how it’s played.
That seems to me to be a profound statement. But I would assume SABR has at least made some inroads in player selection by some management?
Probably
But I also think that by now there is a pretty big gap between FO’s and players/managers in terms of their opinions regarding new stats, and their understating of them. The people running the teams have changed, but the ones actually on the field haven’t really (with a few exceptions; the best is probably Greinke, who is smarter than his own GM).
Brian Bannister follows SABR stats too, I believe
And I thought there was another player, but I can’t remember who right now
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Scherzer, probably?
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
Nicole Scherzinger?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Yeah
Mickey Cochrane was really, really good. Those A’s teams were also really, really good.
Foxx, Cochrane, Simmons, Bishop, Haas, Dykes, etc.
With Lefty Grove heading a good pitching staff.
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
http://www.fangraphs.com/careerleaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&type=6&min=1000
And it’s probably because of his real low AVG. People didn’t appreciate teh OBP.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Higher WAR per PA than
Roberto Clemente, Ken Griffey Jr, Willie McCovey, and Tony Gwynn, just to name a few.
Ivan the Opposite of Terrible
Pudge the Second looks like the best defensive catcher of all time by a long ways.
The only guy who is close is Charlie Bennett from the 19th century.
He played for:
The Grays
The Ruby Legs
The Wolverines
The Beaneaters
I say we rename four teams immediately because clearly baseball would be better with Ruby Legs and Beaneaters.
I’m going to go with Johnny Bench on this one.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 8:01 AM PST up reply actions
I’d say it’s also longevity. He only had 8 years as a starter. Not all of that at catcher. That kind of detracts from the HOF credentials.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
I’m going to blame that on the fact that people in the 70’s didn’t understand how an offense works. He was never anything other than a great hitter during his entire career.
Yep
But too many saw his batting averages. In 1974, I’m sure there were many who couldn’t get past the .211 BA.
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
The funny thing here is that Wikipedia tells me he’s been a hitting coach for years, and is known for teaching an aggressive approach at the plate.
I mean
In his last season as a starting player, he had a 137 OPS+. After that he was made a backup 1B, and spent the last 3 years of his career posting a 130 OPS+. In his first 4 years in the majors, which he spent as a backup catcher, he had a 120 OPS+. A backup catcher with a 120 OPS+!
I'll still go with Lou Whitaker
Eddie Matthews is a guy who I still underrate, even though he’s probably one of the top 3-5 third basemen of all time.
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
*definitely
*the second best
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
very short career
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
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He made the majors at 22, which isn’t old, and played until age 36, which I guess is young for a HOFer, but it’s not that young , especially for a catcher – Bench played from 19 to 35.
He mainly just didn’t get enough playing time – it took 4 years before Oakland agreed to give him the starting job, even though he was the best catcher in the league from the second he made the majors. And then, at the end of his career, he could only get a platoon job, even though he was still an really good 1B/C.
In his first 4 year combined he got just 635 PA’s, and produced a 4.4 WAR. In the last 3 years of his career combined he got just 417 PA’s, and produced a 3.8 WAR.
i meant career in PAs
that’s really what matters, right. Now, you can argue that his managers screwed him, but that doesn’t make him a HOFer.
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
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Says who? He proved that he was good enough and healthy enough to be in the hall. Just because managers in the 70’s didn’t understand how an offense works doesn’t mean that we should pretend we don’t.
Because to get into the Hall, you have to have actually done it on the field, not “might have done it” if only you’d gotten more playing time. There are plenty of guys who would have made it “if only” — we can’t just start letting them all in.
I think it’s fair to make a allowances for certain extraordinary circumstances: black players who were stuck behind the color barrier, players drafted into military service, etc. IMO, “manager’s decisions” doesn’t really fall into that.
Players who actually missed years (or careers) are different – you don’t know what they would’ve done. Here that’s not the question – there is zero doubt that Tenace was good enough to make the HOF.
I am pretty hard core about this
It makes no difference what your “talent” was, if you didn’t do it, it doesn’t count. I don’t give war credit.
I do give credit for Negro Leaguers, however. Only exception.
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
You don’t even need to give him a boost for his reduced playing time to get him in the hall. It just makes his clearer. But ignoring it:
His career WAR is 48.7 – the median for a HOF catcher is 51.
If you use a stat like Wins Above Average, rather than above replacement (and I would argue it’s the better choice in HOF talk – we care about how good they were when they were good, not how decent they were when they were decent), then he’s not just good enough – he’s better than most HOF catchers. Bench, Fisk, Carter, Berra, and Cochrane are the only HOF catchers (out of 13 in total) with more Wins Above Average.
Problem is that most of the HOF catchers he’s better than were flat-out mistakes by the Veterans Committee: Bresnahan, Lombardi, Ferrell, Schalk. Tenace would really come in near the bottom of the “worthy” BBWAA selections.
Campanella was stuck behind the color barrier at first, so he’s getting extra credit for that (and that’s one of the few things I’d say it’s fair to allow extra credit for). He also won 3 MVP awards, something Tenace can’t say.
Anyway, if Tenace went in he’d hardly be the worst selection ever, but I wouldn’t support his selection until Joe Torre and Ted Simmons are in. (Yes, I know Torre is a lock to get in as a manager anyway, but he’s not in yet.) And of course, Piazza and Pudge will be coming up soon, and he’ll have to get in line behind them too. By then, he’s pretty far down the list of HOF-worthy catchers.
Mentioning MVP's doesn't make sense
Tenace was drastically underrated in his time – that is non-arguable. Again, it’s enough that people back then didn’t understand how an offense works, there’s no need to pretend that we don’t either.
It’s not that clear that Campanella would have had better numbers than Tenace if he had been allowed to play from the beginning. Depends on how much worse you think he was in his early 20 than he was in his peak. In any case, it would almost certainly be close.
Tenace and Simmons have very very similar numbers.
Look, I would agree that Tenace was underrated, and maybe he would have put up Hall of Fame numbers if he’d been allowed to play more. But the fact is that he didn’t get to play more, and there were no special rules or military drafts that said he couldn’t. He’s also already behind two more worthy catchers who aren’t in yet, based on the numbers as they stand.
I’ll say this: looking more closely at Tenace makes me think that he’s closer to the HOF than I’d originally expected. But he’s not the BEST catcher who’s not in, so I wouldn’t support his induction. Yes, it’s true that Tenace is close to Simmons; it’s also true that Simmons was demonstrably better.
MVPs count when it comes to making the Hall of Fame, as do All-Star selections, Gold Gloves, and other hardware. They always have. Again, maybe it’s not “fair” that Tenace didn’t receive more accolades, but it’s not such an extraordinary circumstance (like black players being shut out of the major leagues) that he deserves much extra credit for it. In any event, I think Campanella’s career WAR likely would have surpassed Tenace’s if he’d been allowed to play before he was 26 — all of the other top HOF catchers were in the majors and playing regularly by 22 at the oldest. If we give Campanella 4 seasons at his career average of 3.6 WAR per season, he’s over 50. (And Campanella was playing in the Negro Leagues at 16, so he might have made it at an even younger age if not for the color line.)
Anyway even if we don’t give him credit for the time missed, Campanella would still be the ONLY Hall of Fame catcher that Tenace’s numbers surpass, once you remove the always-questionable Veterans Committee selections. It’s not a strong case if you have to argue for him being at the bottom of a worthy group; he’s should be somewhere in the middle.
Anyway even if we don’t give him credit for the time missed, Campanella would still be the ONLY Hall of Fame catcher that Tenace’s numbers surpass, once you remove the always-questionable Veterans Committee selections
First, that’s debatable – I’d say his numbers are better than Hartnett’s too. And second, if you remove the Veterans Committee selections, you’re left with only 7 HOF catchers, and only 4 from the modern era. That’s an insanely high bar.
Maybe so, but again I think you put Simmons and Torre in the Hall before Tenace, and Piazza and Pudge will be in there before long. Then we can think about Gene Tenace.
I suppose. I don’t really see why we can’t talk about him before these guys, two of them aren’t even eligible yet. One is still playing.
It’s more that I’d consider Tenace as a candidate after the others who are better get into the Hall, but by the time Simmons and Torre get in (if they get in), then we’ll probably also have Piazza/Pudge eligible.
Tenace has a better case than I’d previously thought, though personally I wouldn’t vote for him.
Timmons vs. Tenace
Simmons has a nearly identical peak (28 WAR/5 seasons), but 10 more WAR career.
He also was a 90/10 C/1B not a 60/40, and caught >15,000 Innings, more than twice Fury Gene Tenace.
(That is somewhat double counting his career WAR since it’s positionally adjusted… essentially, Tenace was a better hitter, but Simmons played more Catcher — they were both bad fielders).
And Simmons is not in the HOF. He has a better case than Tenace, but is like 10th on the snub list I think (after Blyleven, Whittaker, Trammell, Grich, Santo, Dave Steib). Tenace and Simmons are in the HOVG with Will Clark (blasphemy).
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They’re both better than most HOF catchers, so if they don’t belong, it means there should only be something like 5 catchers in the HOF. And that would be ridiculous.
that argument
FWIW works for Simmons who was a 90% catcher, but not so much Torre and Tenace.
Bill Freehan (better career than Tenace, more Inn@C similar peak) is not in the HOF either.
I GUESS one could make a “PT” adjustment for Catcher since it’s so hard to accumulate a stat like WAR. If you call the in/out for non-catchers 60 WAR/15 years (this is a 50/50 line remember) then for Catchers it would be, what, 85% of 60? 50? But you’d have to prorate Tenace and Torre and the border would be like 54-55. They still aren’t that close.
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The Hall of Merit
Has Freehan, Simmons and Torre in, Tenace out
More useful link:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/the_hall_of_merit_plaque_room
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How are they selected? Because I see that Roger Bresnahan (~40 career WAR) made it in, and I think you’d agree that Tenace was clearly better.
they are voted on by internet folks
it has some strange rules to try to make sure that the HOM is the same size and same rules for voting (eligibility, etc.) as the real HOF. There is a whole discussion thread on Bresnahan. You could read it. There must be a thread on Tenace as well…
found it: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/gene_tenace/
My guess, you can read all about the HOM if you care is that it uses the same voting rules, and when Breshnahan was eligible he got enough votes, while Tenace had to fight through better players.
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
The main discussion in his thread seems to be about how to pronounce his name.
I guess being on the same ballot as Bench will hurt any catcher’s chances.
They’ve been doing this for a long time, being on the same ballot as Johnny Bench isn’t going to have much of an effect.
I think you’re probably going so far beyond the underrating of Tenace during his career that you’re overrating him. And I would guess that the short career + relatively low % of games played at catcher hurts him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Eh
I think I made a pretty objective and simple case for him – even by replacement level stats he’s only slightly worse than the average HOF catcher, and by less PA-based he’s average or better. The counter argument is that half the catchers in the hall were poor choices. But even then:
There are 13 catchers in the HOF. Of catchers eligible for the hall, Tenace ranks 13th (tied with Ewing) in WAR. So if we ignore who actually made the hall, and compare him to those who should have made the hall, and use such a PA-reliant stat as WAR, he’s still a borderline HOFer (unless we assume there should be less than 13 catcher in the hall, but considering there are already fewer catchers in the hall than any other position except 3B, that’s a hard argument to swallow).
By Wins Above Average, he’s closer to #10. By Wins Above Excellence (as they use at BtBS), he is 7th.
By WAR per PA, he’s 2nd best of eligible catchers. In fact, he’s essentially tied for 1st – Ewing was better by half a run.
These are pretty simple arguments. How am I overrating him?
Because you’re treating him like a pure catcher when he played a significant amount of his career at first base.
I know that Ewing and Bresnahan played a lot of their career elsewhere than catcher but it was a much different era. They also had similarly short careers by G and PA (compared to Tenace), but Ewing, at least, played at a time when 154 game schedules were not played. When Bresnahan played, catcher was an absolute wasteland position and Bresnahan stood out a ton. Tenace’s career in the context of the era he played in is extremely short.
I don’t know whether Tenace is a HoF or not – I can see why he’s been underrated and why you’re arguing for him – but the reason he never got much attention from the HoM (not the HoF, which probably never even considered him) is probably because of the short career and the fact that he played a lot of first base, not because of a low batting average. Looking at the ballot results, he’s sort of hovered around 60th place more or less since he went on the ballot.
It’s also worth realizing that they’re not just using straight WAR and voting on that – a lot of them have their own statistical systems for voting, a lot of them do additional adjustments for era or schedule length on top of whatever basic measure they use, etc. And they have elected 20 catchers – you can pick out some you think aren’t as good as Tenace, but some of them (like Bresnahan) are probably near the bottom of the rung as far as HoM catchers go.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
No one will see this, but
First off all, I made some mistakes: Tenace ranks 11th of all times at WAR among catchers, not 13th.
Now, 57% of Tenace’s games were played at catcher. Yes, that’s lower than usual, but it’s still the majority of his games. And he’s comparable to some other great catchers – of the 10 catchers above him in WAR, both Ewing and Torre played a lower percentage of games at catcher (48%, 41%); Simmons wasn’t too far off either (62%).
Ewing and Bresnahan indeed played in different eras, but that could also be an argument in favor of Tenace – the level of play was so ridiculously low and unbalanced during the first years of organized baseball, that I would take a player from the 1970’s over one from 1880’s whenever it’s close to being close. In 1883 there were three different starting catchers with an OPS+ above 145 (Ewing’s 146 was 3rd best), and one with an OPS+ of 20. 20! It was AA ball compared to what baseball had become 100 years later.
Not including Tenace is a list of the 20th best catchers of all times is completely ridiculous to me, so obviously I disagree with whoever does the voting at BBTF. I’ve read the relevant threads, and haven’t found any particularly interesting arguments against Tenace (partially because people generally talk more about the players they did vote for). Mainly people just say he’s not a HOMer, with a few ranking him silly low on their ballot: one guy has Fred Caroll in the 20’s and Tenace out of the top-75; another has Bresnahan at #21 and Tenace at #97!.
So, yeah, not much to change my mind – if we include 13 catchers as the HOF does, he’s borderline-in (in by overrall value, knock him down for playing some 1B, possibly knock him back up for being screwed out of PA’s by managerial incompetence); if we include 20 catchers, as the HOM does, he’s a no-brainer.
This is going to sound funny
but you cannot typically boil a HOF eligibility down to 1 number.
Most HOF (in my book) have either a peak case, a career case. Obviously, if you have zero career or zero peak (above average, say) then the other metric has to be well above a typical HOFer.
You can use WAA for peak – I would use WAA for best 5 or best 7 seasons, but not career. In a long career having a bunch of 2 WAR average seasons is valuable.
So, Tenace
Has 6700 Inn as a Catcher, and 4500 as a 1B. He also has 260 Inn at other positions at -6 runs total, so we can just throw that out. Overall, he was on the mediocre side of the fielding ledger, BBREF gives him ~-1 win. That’s not going to make or break him.
He’s basically a 60/40 C/1B. Note that his early career 1969-1972 he did 1000 Inn of Catching but never put up more than 2.3 WAR in a season. That’s not helping his case.
His 5 year peak, non consective is: ‘73/’75/‘76/’77/‘79 where he put up 28 WAR, which is pretty damn good to be sure. But it’s not enough for a peak HOFer argument, and he only put up 20 WAR outside this peak. Eyeballing it, it looks like he was pretty much a 60-40 C/1B for these 5 years. He has no seasons that really look like MVP quality seasons (ca 7+ WAR),although he had 1 year > 6 WAR.
His career actually looks a lot like Dale Murphy… but his peak is worse. And if you can’t beat Dale Murphy on Peak or Career, you are out of my HOF. Yes, he’s a part-time catcher, but Murphy was a CF, and WAR adjusts for position.
I don’t have the WAA numbers available, but Murphy will be helped more I think.
In summary: His peak was adequate, but not extraordinary for a C who played 1B 40% of the time. His career value was not noteworthy (better than say, Jim Rice though).
He’s certainly better than the worst players in the HOF, but certainly much worse than the best players not in. His case is worse than Ichiro’s and I think Ichiro is marginally qualified (although he’s truly “Famous” so will go in first-ballot no doubt).
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
He’s basically a 60/40 C/1B.
Good point here — I didn’t think to look at how often Tenace actually played catcher. Everyone else we’re talking about logged more innings at catcher than Tenace did; he’s on the fringe of really being considered a career catcher, even beyond Joe Torre, who was already near it. Given that, I don’t think he’s quite in the HOF range.
Torre
not even a 50-50 catcher, but close. Similar peak to Simmons/Tenace, but 55 WAR (same as Simmons).
I made the observation that there cannot be a HARD in/out line for any rough value metric in the HOF. Given the imperfection of measurement (especially defense, or effect of defense behind for pitchers) — not to mention VC and other outright mistakes — there will always be a “widish” (15-20 WAR?) bar around the in/out line.
Thus I define the “true” WAR in/out line to be line at which 50% of players are IN or OUT. Of course there really should be 2 – 1 for peak 1 for career, but that’s a detail. I think Simmons and Torre are pretty close to 50/50, although I think the career 50-50 line is more like 60 WAR.
Never looked at the 5-year or 7 year “peak” line but it’s probably around 35 for “pure” peak players (Murphy, Koufax). (Koufax was 42 peak WAR out of 54! – he’s a no brainer pure peak HOFER, so the line must be somewhere between Koufax/Murphy.)
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
he’s on the fringe of really being considered a career catcher, even beyond Joe Torre, who was already near it
I really don’t understand how you could come to that conclusion. Tenace played 58% of his games at catcher. Torre played only 41% of his games there.
Yeah, not my strongest argument. However, Torre did play more total innings at catcher in his career, and had some seasons where he played a higher percentage of games at C than Tenace ever did.
I probably should have said they’re roughly in the same boat, not that Tenace was less of a catcher than Torre.
I’m voting woody right now.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
One reasonable criterion for the Hall of Fame is
can you discuss that particular era of baseball without mentioning a specific player. I don’t think you can talk about the 80s without McGwire.
It’s criterion like these that’s sort of along the lines of Bill James’ “black ink” thingie, isn’t it. Or was that “grey ink”.
by non sequitur on Dec 29, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
This is why guys like Bagwell, Palmeiro, McGriff…they just don’t seem like sure HOFers to me.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Dec 29, 2010 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
Palmeiro and McGriff, sure, but Bagwell? You can’t talk about the 90s without talking about Bagwell.
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Sure I can.
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Where was I in the ’90s?
I HAVE NO IDEA.
Look out. I'm having a thought.
McGwire’s candidacy aside, I’m not sure that’s a reasonable criterion.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 29, 2010 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
I'd vote for..
Alomar, Larkin and Raines.
The others you would have to coax somehow into voting for them.
I'd vote for
Your mom!
I LOVE YOU BASEBALL GODS!!!!!
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
The ballot is limited to 10 names max, right?
At any rate, I would vote for:
Blyleven
Alomar
Larkin
Martinez
Raines
McGwire
Trammell
Bagwell
Walker
Olerud
Guys like Walker and Olerud and Trammell are because I don’t think they’ll get much support, and I think they deserve some good consideration. No on Palmeiro because there’s no room left and I never much liked him anyway.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
Let it Raines
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The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
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Not sure if old, but...
Looks like I will be buying this!
by BeatLA55 on Dec 29, 2010 4:43 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
.
someone with more free time than sense.
Itaque, in anno MMX Gigantes San Francisconis Seriem Mundi vicerunt.
Ryan Rohlinger: world champion.
by shanghaijim on Dec 29, 2010 6:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's good to be back!
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by Natto on Dec 29, 2010 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 10 recs
Oh Wow.
You just won the internets.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
How about
Who do you guys think are the active players who’ll be in the Hall some day?
Pujols. A-Rod. Jeter. Pudge Rodriguez. Roy Halladay. Ichiro. Chipper Jones. Vlad Guerrero.
Can you think of any more/ are any of mine wrong?
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Depends on how much projection we’re doing. Are you thinking if these players retired now, or are you assuming continued production. For example, it’s too early to be sure, but I think Brian McCann is on a Hall of Fame trajectory right now.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 29, 2010 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
Let's go with
Which guys would you be willing to bet 1,000$ on even odds that they’ll be in the hall.
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Hmm…I’d take that bet on McCann, but I think some voters will overlook him because he doesn’t get the recognition he deserves.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Todd Helton
/ducks
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 29, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
Though
I don’t think he’ll make it – ~350 home runs from a 1B in Coors isn’t going to be enough. But he probably should.
Guerrero probably has the weakest case of those, and he’ll make it on the first ballot, so yeah, I’d say all of these are no-doubters.
I think Mauer is more likely than not to make it at this point. I don’t think I’d bet on anyone else.
I’d definitely vote in Pujols, A-Rod, Jeter, Pudge, and Chipper right now. Probably Vlad too.
If Halladay got hit by a bus tomorrow and never pitched another game, I’d say he’s out. But I think he’ll probably build enough stats to be a solid selection.
Ichiro is an interesting case, also somewhat dependent on how long he keeps playing at a high level; 2 or 3 more seasons of this make him a lock, but then he’ll be 40. On the other hand, he seems like the kind of player who could keep going for a long time.
I’d say that as it stands now, his MLB career probably isn’t worthy by itself, but how much credit should you give him for Japanese and international play? I bet if he retired next year, the writers would vote him in.
Ichiro . . .
no doubt about it.
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 29, 2010 6:35 PM PST up reply actions
Stat of the day
For his career, Ichiro Suzuki has grounded into 46 double plays (in 6779 at bats.)
Pablo Sandoval has 42.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Another Stat of the Day!
Buster Posey had ZERO infield popups this year! 0.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Dec 29, 2010 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
Ichiro is remarkably consistent
He never gets injured and always bats around .350. He’s been the hits leader 7 out of his 10 years here, and the singles leader every year. He’s a perennial All-Star and Gold Glover, for what it’s worth. Dude probably could keep it up until he’s 50.
Don’t forget that he was the first modern Japanese position player to break through (and he was undoubtedly the best by far in Japan, and the best here), paving the way for guys like both Matsuis, Fukudome, and the legendary Shinjo. That’s also worth considering. But unlike Nomo, the first Japanese pitcher of note, I think Ichiro’s sustained excellence alone merits him a HoF spot.
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by Murray, Present on Dec 29, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions
Actually
I remember looking up the numbers once, and it seemed to me like Ichiro’s numbers in Japan weren’t quite as impressive as you’d expect – Matsui, for example, IIRC, had way better numbers in the NPB. It was pretty surprising.
He changed his approach in MLB
He was a power hitter hitting in the middle of the order in Japan. When he came over to MLB he said he “carried the burdens and hopes of the entire country” with him and cannot fail. He knows that the one thing he does that will translate 100% is his speed so he changed his approach to maximize his chance of success (batting average is viewed at as “the stat” for him).
I’d say it worked out pretty well for him.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Plus Japanese stadiums are (on average) smaller than MLB stadiums
Aaron King, please pitch better.
McC Wiki - for all you newcomers out there.
I love their songs
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Ichiroll!
"Campeones." - Andres Torres
Please follow my Twitter
by Murray, Present on Dec 30, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
Ichiro’s kind of anomalous in that his stats didn’t take a big hit when he came to America. IIRC, So Taguchi was the only other such player.
"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"
plus plus plus
he is the best RF in the universe. I don’t know about Gold Glove but I do know of Gold Arm.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Dec 29, 2010 8:16 PM PST up reply actions
GOLD LASER BEAM
just ask Terrance Long
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The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
You can give Ichiro credit for being pretty friggin good.
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Ichiro is a hall of famer if he retires today.
10 straight seasons of 200 or more hits. MLB single season hits record. MVP. Rookie of the year. 10 consecutive gold gloves. Batting title.
That’s more “black ink” than most hall of famers.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Ichiro does do well by Black Ink, though by Career Standards he’s well below the average HOFer, since he started his MLB career at age 27. I do think he gets in if he retires today, but it’s closer than most people expect. A couple more seasons at something like his current level and I think he’s a lock.
I think he’ll probably do it too, despite the fact that he’s 37. He’s into his late 30s and still flashing “young player” skills: AVG, SB, and great defense. He’s never really been hurt. He could probably play into his 40s and still be worthy of a starting corner OF spot.
Kirby Puckett got in with an abbreviated career on his first try
Their qualifications are similar. While Puckett had a little more power, Ichiro had a little more speed.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Puckett is one of the worst players in the hall, though, so I don’t know if it’s a good comparison. Unless you’re talking about whether Ichiro will get in, opposed to whether he should get in. He’ll get in, there’s no doubt about that (partially because he’ll be given credit for starting late).
But if you’re saying his year in the majors, alone, should be enough to make him an easy HOFer (without giving him credit for starting late), then I would disagree – compare his 10 years in the majors to the 10-year peaks of Beltran, Edmonds, Rolen, Abreu, and A. Jones (non of whom are clear-cut HOFers) – Ichiro’s numbers don’t really stand out.
I'm strictly speaking about his "chances" of getting in
He is a lock even if he retires today was my point. His reputation, his “heritage”, and his black ink stats (yes, HOF voters still care about # of hits more than, say, OBP) will carry him in. Maybe not on the first ballot, but he will get in if he decides to hang them up right now.
But he won’t, and in ~4 years he will have 3000 hits and be a sure fire first ballot, surpassing Griffey as the most beloved and perhaps greatest player in Mariners history.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I think by now Griffey’s time with the Mariners has become a bit underrated, because he declined so quickly once he left them, and because of all the complaints about how he was overrated compared to Bonds. Griffey was the best player in the AL in the 90’s, by far, and the 2nd best in the majors, again by far. Ichiro is great, but I don’t think he can replace Griffey as the best Mariner. Maybe most popular, though that’s a tough (pretty much the 2 most popular players in the game, non-Jeter category).
I agree with you, particularly because Griffey carried great defense with his great offense and was good enough on the bases. That’s why I had the “perhaps” qualifier there.
Though, if Ichiro racks up 200+ hits for another 4-5 years, that’s 15 years in the Mariners Uniform vs 11 for Griffey (I refuse to count the last 2 years, which were just awful). I think at that point longevity might begin to compensate.
emphasis on might
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Griffey’s fall of the cliff is really unbelievable. He lost all his skills the second he left Seattle.
disagree
He didn’t lose skills, his stats started declining when he started getting injured.
His first Cincinnati year (new league/new pitchers) he hit .271/.943 with 40 HRs in what was considered a “down year”.
2001 on was just injury after injury. Hard to fault a decline for that, especially when those injuries take your running and bat speed away.
totally made a baby during the 2010 World Series.
Injuries were definitely most of it
Though that one year in Cincinnati was still the worst offensive year he’d had since his rookie season (not including 70 games in 95). Then injuries ate him up.
there are like 7 threads
on BBTF on this exact subject.
Summary: He WILL certainly go in, but if he was hit by a bus his career is not much more impressive than Larry Walker or Dwight Evans’ (i.e, marginal HOF at best). He gets a HUGE WAR bump from his defense in RF – so huge that it calls UZR etc. into question) and his hitting stats aren’t all that for a corner OF.
That assuming you don’t count his career in Japan at all, which I think is fair (not to count it)
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
I’m not sure that the defensive bump isn’t justified, though. Ichiro has been a brilliant fielder for his entire career.
well
brilliiant, sure. Best RF in the history of MLB? Harder to swallow, but I guess someone has to be the best. Even that just gets him past marginal HOFer. 10 years with not a fantastic peak is hard to overcome.
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
you know
I withdraw this objection. I was of the opinion that he blew away all the other corner OFs in this stat, but he seems just at the top… so it’s not unreasonable.
I checked his dWAR on bb-ref. He has 13.2 dWAR in 10 years, 1.3/year.
Other notable corner OFs:
Jessie Barfield: 16 WAR/12 years (1.33)
Brian Jordan 16/WAR 15 years
Yaz 19.9 WAR/23 years
Barry Bonds 20WAR/20 years
Roberto Clemente 22 WAR/18 years
So on a rate basis, Barfield >= Ichiro ~> Clemente > Yaz/Bonds/Jordan.
So he’s one of the the top 3 RFs of all time… however, since he did all of this in his 30s… one might imagine he was even better in Japan (since fielders usually are best in their 20s).
Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...
I had a discussion a few weeks ago in which someone claimed that Ichiro has “quietly been the best hitter in baseball since starting his MLB career”. I was frankly shocked at this statement. I listed a couple of off the top players – Manny, Jim Thome, but I could not convince the other person that Ichiro has not been the best hitter or even close to the best hitter.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
I also suggested Pujols first, and the other person said, “Yeah, for hitting homeruns.” I said, “Well, precisely.”
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
That’s just ridiculous. Pujols and A-Rod were clearly better during that time, and let’s not forget that Ichiro’s MLB career started exactly when Bonds became superhuman for 4 seasons. Ichiro’s greatness is as an all-around player (hitting, baserunning, fielding), not strictly as a hitter.
People do define “hitter” differently, you know. Since he joined American baseball, Ichiro has more hits than anyone else. Some folks begin and end their definition there.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
It’s a few years off, but if Ichiro gets to 3,000 hits, it’ll be tough to keep him out just based on good company alone.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
Manny, probably. Thome would at least demand a discussion.
by non sequitur on Dec 29, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
I still don’t have a read on Omar’s candidacy. It could be obvious that he’s in or obvious that he’s out.
by non sequitur on Dec 29, 2010 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
I think Vizquel is obviously out. Very good player, but he can’t get in on the Ozzie Smith model (offense not quite as good, defense not quite as stellar), and he’s going to compare poorly to other top SS of his time (Jeter, A-Rod, Nomar, Tejada).
There’s something weird with all these plus hitters landing at short — there’s the four you mentioned and then Ripken and Larkin in the half-generation before them. Among players who have lasted at least 10 years (and thus qualify for the Hall), the shortstop position must have outhit the second base position in recent history.
by non sequitur on Dec 29, 2010 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe the top SS, but SS as a whole, no.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I was thinking that Vizquel’s chances might improve if there was some sense that Jeter/A-Rod/Nomar etc. were somehow considered extremely aberrant as far as the offensive standards of a HoF shortstop were concerned. But I suppose that’s not going to matter if voters are only going to let in so many shortstops in a given era.
by non sequitur on Dec 29, 2010 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
The first sentence above is not constructed well.
by non sequitur on Dec 29, 2010 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
it sure does not follow.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
your cat is a non sequitur?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Does he like troll or the other thing?
someone with more free time than sense.
Itaque, in anno MMX Gigantes San Francisconis Seriem Mundi vicerunt.
Ryan Rohlinger: world champion.
by shanghaijim on Dec 29, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions
I’m generally a fan of comparing guys to the others of their era when I first start looking at his candidacy. If a player was clearly the best at his position in a given era, I’m fine with letting him in (that’s why I supported Ryne Sandberg getting in, despite some iffy career stats — he was obviously the top 2B of the 80s). If a guy isn’t clearly the best of his time, then he’d better have obvious value as compared to the all-time greats.
I think Vizquel fails both tests: he doesn’t rank particularly highly among all-time position players (just 243rd in career WAR by B-R), and he’s clearly not the best SS of his era. Fine player, and I liked him. Just not a Hall of Famer.
It’s a few years off, but if Omar gets to 3,000 hits, it’ll be tough to keep him out just based on good company alone.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
If Brooks Robinson got elected,
then so should Omar Vizquel.
by mrs. owlcroft on Dec 29, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
Career WAR
Robinson: 69.1
Vizquel: 43.1
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Obviously Robinson had TEH FEAR and Vizquel didn’t.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Yeah, this
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
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Miller, Antonelli
Kirkland, Herndon
All fall down.
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 29, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
It’s a few years off, but if Posey gets to 3,000 hits, it’ll be tough to keep him out just based on good company alone.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
If Posey retired tomorrow, I’d vote him in. That’s why I don’t have a vote.
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
Belt
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 29, 2010 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
Load
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
I want Moyer to get 300 wins and go into the hall for sheer olditude.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2010 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
I want Moyer to get 3000 hits and get in based on good company alone.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
This baseball thing is pretty cool
That would be pretty sweet. Just 2,951 to go!
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
I always say "If they died today would they be in?"
With that criteria I would include Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Ivan Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Chipper Jones, Todd Helton, Albert Pujols, Scott Rolen, Jim Thome
Guys like Pettite, Posada, Ichiro, Guerrero, Berkman, Halladay need a few more good years to get in. Also it is very very possible that Javier Vazquez gets 3,000 K’s for his career. Does this make him a hall of famer? I say no, then again I don’t believe in milestones making a player an automatic hall of famer. Which is why I would never vote in Craig Biggio.
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 30, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
I’d have Larkin in the first category.
My ballot (reposted from twitter, teehee)
Larkin, Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Trammell, Raines, McGwire, Brown, E. Martinez, Walker
I have no problem with voting for the full 10. I’d vote for Palmeiro too, but he’s definitely at the bottom.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
My first thought on seeing that list...
I like Gary Brown too, but c’mon. Let’s not elect him to the Hall just yet.
I should stop reading prospect threads.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
Whatever – DRAFT POSITION!
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
Only Blyleven is on my '11 ballot
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 29, 2010 7:52 PM PST reply actions
SO YOU ARE THE GUY THAT DIDNT VOTE FOR RICKY
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I'm on the Dale Murphy train
2 MVPs, 7times All Star Games and only 49 players in MLB history hit more homers.
I know his slash line numbers aren’t gaudy, but he just feels like a HoFer to me.
The thong is, it happened.
this
Brian Wilson: "Don't Quote Me"
Buster Posey: "I Ain't Havin' It"
Pat Burrell: "The Patural"
by slackersphere17 on Dec 29, 2010 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
Blyleven and Alomar for sure
and I’m starting to come around on Raines as well. I also think Palmeiro is a hall of famer, but not on the first ballot.
Chris Gloor: my lefty is bigger than your lefty
by crazedcrustacean on Dec 29, 2010 10:03 PM PST reply actions
Robbie!
I’m with you on Blyleven and Alomar. I think Alomar tops my list, and Blyleven is running out of time and really should be in.
The HOF doesn’t have many 2B’s in there, and it’s possible that Alomar, Biggio, and Kent will all make it. That could make the 90’s look like a golden age for the position.
"The two worst things in football are: 1) They think that a 30-year old professional athlete has to be locked up in a hotel room, with a curfew, the night before a qame; and 2) They're right."
- Cowboy safety Cliff Harris
by achiappanza on Dec 30, 2010 12:48 AM PST up reply actions
And there we are
Alomar and Blyleven it is!
"The two worst things in football are: 1) They think that a 30-year old professional athlete has to be locked up in a hotel room, with a curfew, the night before a qame; and 2) They're right."
- Cowboy safety Cliff Harris
Great line
I still think Trammell and Lou Whitaker should go in together, and they should finish each other’s sentences during the induction ceremony.
Perfect. I LOL’d.
"The two worst things in football are: 1) They think that a 30-year old professional athlete has to be locked up in a hotel room, with a curfew, the night before a qame; and 2) They're right."
- Cowboy safety Cliff Harris
With regard to Jack Morris and “pitching to the score”, I think Updike’s words can be repurposed.
“Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter’s myth, he is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.”
"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"
OT: LOL Royals Review
http://www.royalsreview.com/2010/12/29/1903336/dmit-sweet-sixteen#storyjump
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
That’s brilliant. I’d put my money on Yuni.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Just watched Human Centipede
Weird.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 30, 2010 12:14 AM PST reply actions
Why would you choose to watch that?
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
He should get his head out of his ass and watch something less disgusting.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
Boredom, mostly. Partly curiosity
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 30, 2010 3:09 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I choose not to watch that.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
Would you refuse to eat this then?
Apologies for the size.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 31, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
That’s What Ichiro Said?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 31, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
I was at the MLB Club House in Anaheim last week
Fact : This store, despite the name MLB Clubhouse, sells zero items with the words “San Francisco Giants” on it. It does, however, have Peyton Manning, Kobe Bryant, and Reggie Bush jerseys readily available.
I don’t think I have ever been to an official store for a professional league that does not sell merchandise for its current champion, one that is within the same state, no less.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Looks like the Santa Ana – Main Place Mall
If so, I’ve seen Giants stuff in there before, though it was during the season.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Dec 30, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
It was.
I went in there and looked all around. Nada.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
MLB decided retroactively that the Giants didn’t win the World Series after all. The Series was actually played between the Yankees and Phillies, with the Phillies eking out a win 4-3 thanks to the stunning last-minute acquisition of Cliff Lee from Texas.
"Campeones." - Andres Torres
Please follow my Twitter
by Murray, Present on Dec 30, 2010 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
My parents had the same complaint about this place.
It was funny, because they both grew up as Dodgers fans,
But my father couldn’t wrap his head around the indignity.
“It’s stupid,” he kept saying.
“I know,” I said.
“Stupid. Are you staying for dinner?”
Look out. I'm having a thought.
I thought this would be a limerick.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
There once was a man from Orange County
Who, seeking the World Series bounty,
Drove out to Main Place
And donned a grim face
When naught but crap SoCal schwag found he.
Look out. I'm having a thought.
by waelwulf on Dec 30, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory | Confused? Check the McWiki
Tortured last line.
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 30, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
Goodness...
Did you berate someone making $10/hr?
Not saying that’s the right thing to do, just saying that’s probably how I would’ve handled it.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
I was in my WS Champion Sweatshirt + Giants Cap
I had more Giants Merchandise on myself than they had in the store. They are, however, large men and I decided to gloat quietly as I browsed through a sea of Red and Blue, smiled at the clerk, and took my victory lap around the store before walking out.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
you know....
keeping a small bottle of champagne on your person to pour over your head in times like these seems like a good idea to me now.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
It would be pretty epic to stage “random” Giants celebrations in funny places. All of the sudden there are 20 Giants fans pouring champagne on each other.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
This is an excellent idea!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Denver Bronco fan here
/ducks
but – it would be funny at the 49ers last home game to see a group of people do this very thing.
eh, screw you Jed – WE GOT CHAMPERS.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
I'd say...
Rose
Bagwell
Blyleven
Martinez
maaaaaybe: McGuire
totally made a baby during the 2010 World Series.
Rose shouldn't get in until Shoeless Joe gets in
I don't have a very high opinion of southern California, in sports or in general
by short_shifter on Dec 30, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
Good Point.
He’s the new top of my list, rest stays the same.
totally made a baby during the 2010 World Series.
Put them in the hall...
and tell their stories. Good, bad, ugly, and note that there remains the possibility that the story most people “know” may not be true. Let the history of the game be the history of the game.
Playoff baseball is fun. We should do this more often.
THIS
Pete Rose deserves to be in the HOF. He had more hits than anyone.
He was also a compulsive gambler who put the sanctity of The Game in jeopardy.
Tell his tale, warts and all.
BUT → Rose stays banned from the MLB. Period. No managing.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
The thing is that Rose’s accomplishments (such as breaking the hits record) ARE commemorated in the Hall of Fame. He just doesn’t get a plaque.
I say give him his damn plaque, but don’t allow him near MLB baseball and call it a day.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
DAY!
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Well my sleep patterns are fucked
I’m practically nocturnal at this point
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 30, 2010 3:13 AM PST via mobile reply actions
me too.
And then all of a sudden it’s 330 AM, and I have work in 5 hours.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
I went to bed at 11 last night because I was sick. It’s the earliest I’ve been to bed in longer than I can remember.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
Do you work a job? Not being an ass, just wondering. I can’t stay up late anymore because of work.
Ask me about my blog.
11:30 might be the latest I go to bed any more. Waking before six and having to deal with a toddler do that to you.
Yeah, I’m going to be in that same boat soon. I’m pretty sure I’m going to have to drink nothing but coffee to survive.
Ask me about my blog.
Don’t run it through Howie’s coffee maker.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t right now, but even when I was working I had trouble getting to sleep by 11. I imagine this will change really quickly as I round the corner on my 20s here and head toward 30.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
When I was eighteen, I didn’t go to class a whole lot. For a while there, I had trouble waking up in time to make it to the dining hall before they stopped serving food.
Dinner food.
This was one of the less popular Sinatra songs.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
Some people can work with little sleep, I need at least 6-7 hours or so. If I don’t get that, I feel like death.
Ask me about my blog.
I was like that
Then I ended up being so tired that I now go to bed at like 10 and wake up early
"You think someone that big would be more well endowed" Aubrey Huff's mother on Pat Burrell
I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
I’m 21 and still afraid of the dark (when I’m alone- like now). I need a solution.
"Can Manchester United score? They always score... Peter Schmeichel is forward... Beckham, in towards Schmeichel- it's come for Dwight Yorke. Cleared... Giggs with a shot- SHERINGHAM!"
by Useful_Idiot on Dec 30, 2010 9:30 PM PST up reply actions
I found these battery operated candles at Costco. They have a timer on them 5 hours on 19 off (and regular on and off). We liked them… and then the power went out the other night and I put the candles on the stairs and in the bathroom … now we love them. Next time I go I’m buying enough of them so that there’s one in every room! Emergency preparedness FTW !
FtF: Welcome to Opposite Season!
McC: Don't get it? Try the McWiki wiki.
My criteria is fairly straightforward
Kirk Rueter
Benito Santiago
Marquis Grissom
Bert Blyleven
They might be Giants...but they are definitely WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
"And what was once torture for an entire city became a magical ride into an Orange October."
'criteria' are plural
‘criterion’ is the singular
Fifteen months and my first McC grammar correction. YES!
They might be Giants...but they are definitely WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
"And what was once torture for an entire city became a magical ride into an Orange October."
I think it took me 15 minutes.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
OMFG
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
“stadia” and “stadium”
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 30, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
Latinizing plural nouns when you’re not speaking Latin really chaps my hide. ‘Data’ and ‘criteria’ have become English words. ‘Stadia’ really hasn’t, no matter what the OED says.
by wcw on Dec 30, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. “Stadiums” has become the American standard. But Webster’s New Collegiate (not the Old World OED) still marks “stadia” as preferred. The OED doesn’t have a prescriptive bone in its body.
He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.
by gallo del cielo on Dec 30, 2010 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
Oh wow
“he’s a no because he might have done steroids”
Welp, guess that means that no one who played from the mid-80s to ’06 or so should get in then.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
My list
•Jeff Bagwell
•Tim Raines
•Roberto Alomar
•Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Kinda OT, but still HOF related
I know the Giants sent gear to the HOF, but couldn’t the Hall also asked for some of Bumgarner’s testicular fortitude (or guts if you prefer)? Just finished watching game 4 again, and the kid STILL shocks me.
"A 1-0 Loss is the fault of our pitching staff" Bruce Bochy/Brian Sabean
Courtesy of our friends at LL
Madison Bumgarner is a 21 year old lefty who spends oodles and oodles of time working inside against right-handed hitters. Madison Bumgarner’s balls are so big that they interfere with cell phone reception, and when you walk by him when you’re on the phone, you have to tell the person on the other end, hold on, I’m walking by Madison Bumgarner’s balls.
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2010/11/1/1786407/on-game-4-of-the-world-series
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
LL is awesome
They make me want to root for the Mariners because of how Giants friendly they are over there.
"A 1-0 Loss is the fault of our pitching staff" Bruce Bochy/Brian Sabean
by Cant_buy_a_run on Dec 30, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
That’s awesome.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
He’s a 21 year old kid! He still needs that!
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but he is married
So he really doesn’t.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
I think he has plenty to go around. Like you said, only 21! I want some remaining fortitude for future championship runs!
"A 1-0 Loss is the fault of our pitching staff" Bruce Bochy/Brian Sabean
by Cant_buy_a_run on Dec 30, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
The Giants were not good in 2010; they just got lucky
And Jose Lopez will have an OPS of .840 next season. Nevermind his career .697 OPS over 3300 at bats.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 9:52 AM PST reply actions
One of the things that I would like to see studied is how certain league or team switches improve the odds of unlikely events happening, because I’ve done a complete 180 on Lopez and I think he’s capable of putting up an All-Star level season with the Rockies in 2011. I’d be talking about something like .310/.340/.500 in a triple slash line.
This delusion is delicious. Lopez’s best OBP in any season is .322 and his career OBP is .297. That’s like predicting that Eugenio Velez will have a .340 OBP next season — because hey, new team!
Ask me about my blog.
LOL COORS
"Campeones." - Andres Torres
Please follow my Twitter
by Murray, Present on Dec 30, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
Oh, wow. She’s using fan projections from FanGraphs.
A .340 OBP would also be easy at that point as it seems this is what everybody thinks according to FanGraphs. If you plug in the same 4.2% BB rate fans are projecting to a .310 average instead of a .275 one (which, as I’ve explained, I think is way low given his career rates and how Coors Field plays) you get a .339 OBP. Close enough.
They might be Giants...but they are definitely WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
"And what was once torture for an entire city became a magical ride into an Orange October."
Whatever. Even if true, being lucky World Champions is better than not being World Champions. 29 other teams wish they’d been lucky too.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
You know what? Fuck Purple Row. Fuck them and their goat ass.
Fans are delusional. We all are. Every fan of every team overvalue their own prospects, players, and make excuses for their teams. The difference with Rainbow Line is their unabashed sense of entitlement with regards to their team; that 20 game winning streaks are the norm and unforeseen outcomes of defeat are never a reflection of quality, but rather reflection of randomness within the game.
The Rockies were in a virtual tie for the division with 12 games to play. Was it luck that doomed their season? was it fate that derailed their championship parade? No. It was a collection of strong willed, steel bending, bullet deflecting, thunder eating and lightning crapping men of destiny that went into the lion’s den and ripped their guts out, leaving a trail of devastation, a wake of destruction, if you will. A pitching staff, dipped in the river of styx and forged in mount doom, left no prisoners as they rampaged through the National League west in the final weeks on its way to everlasting glory. It was every bit about skill and determination as it was about randomness and chance. They call it “luck”, I call it “Savage Beatings.”
As the calendar turn from 2010 to 2011, the Orange and Black are national champions, ready to once again march onto the battlefield and defend its title. They can lament the wounds of 2010 and the what ifs, the maybes, and the should have beens. We have the pennant, the ring, the trophy and the flag, and it will fly in centerfield of the house that Lord Barry Lamar Bonds built for an eternity.
We beat their ass last year, we’ll beat their ass again this year. Get ready for the balls of Madison Bumgarner, larger than the statue of liberty, to crush their hopes for another year. The shot gun wielding, cantaloupe eating, panda riding ninja is still lurking in the woods, ready to pounce at a moment’s notice. Barry Zito is still in the distance, still caressing the water buffalo, with film ready to roll.
Bring it, my purple child. This is our world, you are just living in it.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
by jctGamer on Dec 30, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 29 recs
This was awesome!
rec
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
Holy wrecking ball of Rec
If we could get this engraved on a cruise missile and guide that baby up the nether regions of Dinger…well…that’d be great too.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
I am the blond kid in the Raptor Jesus gif after reading this.
someone with more free time than sense.
Itaque, in anno MMX Gigantes San Francisconis Seriem Mundi vicerunt.
Ryan Rohlinger: world champion.
by shanghaijim on Dec 30, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Words cannot do justice to this beauty.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
This is, perhaps, the greatest thing ever written on the interwebz.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Dec 30, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
Flagged for AWESOMENESS
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 30, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
This is so wondrously good...
"…It was a collection of strong willed, steel bending, bullet deflecting, thunder eating and lightning crapping men of destiny that went into the lion’s den and ripped their guts out, leaving a trail of devastation, a wake of destruction, if you will. A pitching staff, dipped in the river of styx and forged in mount doom, left no prisoners as they rampaged through the National League west in the final weeks on its way to everlasting glory. It was every bit about skill and determination as it was about randomness and chance. They call it "luck", I call it "Savage Beatings."
As the calendar turn from 2010 to 2011, the Orange and Black are national champions, ready to once again march onto the battlefield and defend its title. They can lament the wounds of 2010 and the what ifs, the maybes, and the should have beens. We have the pennant, the ring, the trophy and the flag, and it will fly in centerfield of the house that Lord Barry Lamar Bonds built for an eternity."
I want to post it on a banner over my house and garage. I want to paint it onto my car. I want to put it on my tombstone. I want to change my sig. And I like my sig.
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
I want to freeze it and ice skate on it. Then in the spring time we can melt it and drink it!
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I want to dip my balls in it.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
I remember that show.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
I actually don’t. But I’ve seen enough people quote that line on this website to pretend.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
The State, right?
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Dec 30, 2010 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
I do believe it is Beer Fest.
"A 1-0 Loss is the fault of our pitching staff" Bruce Bochy/Brian Sabean
by Cant_buy_a_run on Dec 30, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
I also like your sig
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Dec 30, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
This is why you are my hero, when I grow up, I want to be you (even though I may be older than you). Rec’d for pure unadulterated awesomeness.
"A 1-0 Loss is the fault of our pitching staff" Bruce Bochy/Brian Sabean
by Cant_buy_a_run on Dec 30, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
The Rockies were in a virtual tie for the division with 12 games to play. Was it luck that doomed their season? was it fate that derailed their championship parade? No. It was a collection of strong willed, steel bending, bullet deflecting, thunder eating and lightning crapping men of destiny that went into the lion’s den and ripped their guts out, leaving a trail of devastatio
…
I got a bo-bo.
Look out. I'm having a thought.
I had a Buster Posey dream last night
For some reason, the Giants were playing the Cubs or somebody AFTER they’d won the World Series again in 2011, because some regular season games got rained out or something. Anyway, the important was that Buster threw out, like a million runners. At one point, he got up and ran along the third base line and literally annihilated the runner. Like, in an explosion.
"Campeones." - Andres Torres
Please follow my Twitter
by Murray, Present on Dec 30, 2010 10:19 AM PST reply actions
I think if I torture FanGraphs fan projections enough
I can totally see this actually happening.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
I had a dream that it was opening day and the Giants were playing. Andres Torres was hurt so Rowand was playing in center. The opposing batter hit a ball to left-center. Rowand sprinted toward the foul line, not only seriously overrunning the ball, but actually rounding off his route at the foul line because he got confused and thought that he was actually running imaginary bases and was imagining himself rounding third. Burrell ran in to cut the ball off, but it went under his glove. By now, Rowand realized that he was playing defense and ran back to the ball with an embarrassed look on his face, picked it up, and airmailed it to the pitcher. Unfortunately, the play was at second (apparently, this was a slow runner). So the pitcher throws to second, but misses and throws to the shortstop instead. The shortstop (not Tejada, but I can’t remember the name on the jersey) throws to the second baseman… a guy named “Wade” for some reason, who drops the ball. The shortstop runs to get the ball, because the play is incredibly still on, and runs into the second baseman Wade. They both fall down and the runner is safe at second. The broadcasters then mention that those two guys didn’t play much together during Spring Training and are still finding their rhythm. And I remember thinking “that makes sense, but I hope they find it soon.”
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
That does make sense.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
I like the part where Aaron Rowand thought he was running the bases in the outfield. It’s funny because it’s true.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
throws to the second baseman… a guy named "Wade" for some reason, who drops the ball.
Found him: Chris Wade had an OPS of .600 in the Sally at the age of 23 as a shortstop. Clearly he can be picked up with minimal cost, and placed upon the path of Bocock.
Your dreams work wonders, master.
My adopted son: Jose Casilla.
I'm sure that you now wish to immediately go and vote for him in the Community Prospect Lists.
I dreamt last night (well, early this morning) that Imelda Marcos held me and an entire mall hostage by ordering the fireproof doors to shut so no one could get out until we stopped disrespecting her. But I had to get out because I had a letter from her husband in her minivan on which I forged his signature because, y’know, he’s dead, and I had to retrieve it before the forgery was found out.
How I got this dream after reading a Tim Lincecum/Buster Posey slash epic and writing a WW2 novel, I have no idea.
someone with more free time than sense.
Itaque, in anno MMX Gigantes San Francisconis Seriem Mundi vicerunt.
Ryan Rohlinger: world champion.
by shanghaijim on Dec 30, 2010 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
Tim Lincecum is half Filipino and Imelda Marcos was alive during WW2.
Done.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
Also: Lincecum/Posey doesn’t seem like a good pairing to me for some reason. Too much glitz. Posey/Cain could be a good tale of two southern boys with different dispositions learning to live from each other… and to love.
Placeholder.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
This sounds like an awesome dream.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Dec 30, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t understand people who aren’t voting for Barry Larkin but are voting for Roberto Alomar.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
So, Posey wins again?
After much deliberation, ESPN The Magazine has found the athlete destined to make the biggest impact on sports in the coming year…and for years to come. Hitting .305 and blasting 18 homers—as well as handling baseball’s best pitching staff—San Francisco Giants catcher and NL Rookie of the Year Buster Posey is The Mag’s NEXT athlete.
They might be Giants...but they are definitely WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
"And what was once torture for an entire city became a magical ride into an Orange October."
as well as handling baseball’s best pitching staff
BUSTER WAS TRADED TO PHILLY!!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
Hmm
I might do it for Carlos Ruiz, Domonic Brown, and, oh, Joe Blanton?
My Adopted Giant
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Buster is Carlos Ruiz!
They might be Giants...but they are definitely WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
"And what was once torture for an entire city became a magical ride into an Orange October."
I am shocked at your lack of campaigning to re-introduce Will Clark to the ballot.
That is all.
Better to be a Giants fan than an Athletic supporter!
6th Starter.
I’m sure there has been discussion about a 6th starter but I have pretty much been absent here the last week or so. After seeing the Rangers signed Webb for a 1 year deal I thought, “maybe the Giants could have signed him for that.” However, that doesn’t make sense since the entire starting rotation is locked up.
So my question is what is the best case (realistic) scenario for a 6th starter? Probably someone who does long relief or a AAA guy? Seems to me that anyone worth much would already be in a rotation somewhere.
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Duchschererererererer
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
So would he be in the pen or AAA?
Pull your kids from school and get them Twitter accounts. Let them learn from the people!
Long relief/spot starter
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Not hallucinating
I probably shouldn’t have raised the subject in the first place.
My bad.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
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