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FP Added.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yes.
My Son
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
I think somewhere in there I compared you to Humphrey Bogart
Just count that as a win and move on.
My Son
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Eh, Bs are good.
Through 5 teams there have been…
4 A
3 A-
1 Borderline B+/A-
So 1-2 A’s per system is good. The Royals seem to be stacked now with a lot of them but I’m glad with Belt.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Go Roger Kieschnick! And son, please continue to break scoreboards on your way to San Francisco.
As Sickels himself notes B’s are likely to be productive major league players for many years. It’s a good thing. He’s certainly higher on Brown than I am, but as I find pretty much everything else he’s saying here to be pretty reasonable, I find myself wondering whether I shouldn’t have a higher opinion of Brown myself.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Because I'm a masochist, I decided to go back and check out all the B-ish hitting prospects from 2005-2009
A good bit of fail in here (grades are from when they peaked):
Marcus Sanders, B+ (2006)
Eddy Martinez-Esteve, B+ (2006)
Thomas Neal, B (2009)
Angel Villalna, B (2008)
Kevin Frandsen, B (2006)
Roger Kieschnick, B- (2009)
Tommy Joseph, B- (2009)
Francisco Peguero, B- (2009)
Travis Ishikawa, B (2006)
Nate Schierholtz, B (2006)
Conor Gillaspie, B- (2008)
Nick Noonan, B- (2008)
Emmanuel Burriss, B- (2007)
Pablo Sandoval, B- (2006)
Fred Lewis, B- (2005)
John Bowker, B- (2005)
But hey, over that same period of time we’re 1-1 with A/A- hitters!
And the San Francisco Giants won the World Series!
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Eh, Sanders and EME were derailed by injuries, Villalona by off field issues. But of the people who aren’t still on their way up, Schierholtz, Ishikawa, Lewis, and Sandoval have already had multi-year major league careers and all are likely to be around in some form or another for a few more. I think Bowker’s power will get him a few more major league chances. Frandsen and Burriss are probably the worst hitters on there and both have bounced in and out of the majors for a bit and may do so some more for a couple years.
It’s certainly not a shining list, but it’s not like everybody on there is a AA flameout either.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
No, but it does go to show just how rare it is that a good prospect becomes a good player, which I think even the big experts tend to forget from time to time.
that is a great point
I have been saying for a while that I think all of that information we have available on prospects and the minor leagues has lead to prospects as a whole being over-valued and too much being expected of them. You could put together a list of B prospect flameouts and disappointments like this one for every single team in the league
by FluLikeSymptoms on Nov 14, 2010 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
I disagree. A single prospect’s odds of becoming a good player are overrated, but the possible reward is drastically underrated. A good player who hasn’t reached FA yet is the most valuable asset a baseball team can have; and, in general, good players who haven’t reached free agency are what playoffs teams (including the Giants) are built around.
by Cookyman on Nov 14, 2010 10:25 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, I completely agree with Cookyman here. It’s not that all these guys succeed. Clearly they don’t (and honestly there’s not near enough turn over of major league jobs for that to happen anyway). But by and large these lists are where the talent that does come is going to come from.
When the playoffs started this year, for the fun of it I took at look at all the players on all the playoff rosters. That’s a pool of 200 players. Of those 200 players, 56 had previously been a #1 prospect on a BA organization list. If you extend that out to #1-3, the number went up to 91. 91 of 200! And that list included:
39 of the regular starting players (out of 68)
3 platoon starters
22 starting pitchers (out of 29 pitchers who started a postseason game)
6 closers
In addition there were another 9 former #1s and 10 former #2-3 who had played for the playoff teams but were not on their playoff roster either due to injury (Chipper Jones, Justin Morneau, Jair Jurrjens), not deemed ready yet (Hellickson), or disinterest (Dioner Navarro, Barry Zito).
I also looked at players who had made BA’s Top 100 prospect list at some point on the way up and found these numbers. Again out of 200 players:
92 had been on a Top 100 a total 197 times
33 players had made 3+ appearances on the Top 100
34 were in the Top 10
53 Top 20
8 former #1s
6 former #2s
So a little more than a quarter of all players in the postseason this year were once considered a Top 20 prospect in baseball. Those players included
44 Game 1 starting players (out of 68)
23 Starting pitchers (out of 29)
Again, there were also 14 other players who were eligible but were not placed on postseason rosters, including another former #1 top prospect in baseball (Chipper Jones).
Of course there were misses. In particular, Brian Wilson, Robinson Cano, and Mariano Rivera never appeared on a Top 100 or a teams Top 3, but I think that’s pretty much the list. Everybody else who was an important part of a team’s success this year tended to have caught scouts eyes coming up.
And lastly, just for fun (because what else was there to do while waiting for Giants games to start), I looked at the bottom 8 teams in baseball last year, and a group of 8 teams that fell just under 500, and without going into the numbers what I found was those groups still had a lot of players from Top 100 (particularly the bottom 8 who naturally have a lot of high draft choices), but in general they had more 1 time appearances guys, most 50-100 guys, more top guys who were flops (this is where the Corey Pattersons of the world pop up) and fewer pitchers who were top prospects.
So if anybody but me is still reading, while these lists absolutely include a lot of future flops, these lists are also, by and large where the future impact talents are going to come from and success in baseball is related to rounding up the most impact talent. (for those wondering, the Giants playoff team this year included 10 former Top 100 prospects, 6 former team #1s, and 3 team #2-3s).
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 15, 2010 5:12 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Yes, but top three in the organization, or top 100 in baseball, means you’re talking about the elite prospects. When you look at the next tier down — Sickels’s B’s and B-minuses — the success rate becomes quite low. I think FluLike is probably right that the profusion of information about marginal prospects causes a lot people to value them more highly than they should.
Well, yeah, I agree but that. That’s why I think a lot of people think I’m overly negative about our prospects, because I tend to feel the need to argue the more conservative and pragmatic outlook, rather than the hopeful high end one.
There was an interesting couple of articles over at Royals Review looking at just how much production teams with top farm systems in the last decade have been receiving. It’s an interesting read.
And of course this is why I’m a believer that 1 or 2 high impact prospects are better than 10 useful ones — that stars ultimately win titles. And I think our fortunes this year have confirmed that. Lincecum was an insanely high impact prospect. Posey’s gotten off to a very good start for heading that way. Throw in Cain and Wilson, and our system that hasn’t had anything like depth all decade has produced and incredible amount of production in just a very few hits.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Couldn't agree more
It’s not being overly negative to realize that the majority of these guys won’t make it. Only the elite prospects are going to be impact players. The moment someone dips in to the utility infielder, 4th outfielder, back of the rotation starter territory, to me they’ve ceased to be a prospect. From that perspective my list would look as follows:
1. Brandon Belt (obviously)
2. Zack Wheeler (could be a front of the rotation starter)
3. Gary Brown (everyday CF, fringe all-star)
4. Chuckie Jones (corner outfielder with power, more athletic PTB)
5. Heath Hembree (future closer)
That’s it, that’s the list. The rest of the guys have too many question marks to call them prospects. In there, there’s some guys that are really intriguing and could become something like Surkamp, Peguero, Crawford and Rosin, but they all have something that needs to drastically change about their game (ie. Crawford and Peguero’s BB/rate) that inhibit their upside too much to call them prospects. Furthermore, they also have something that is below average for their age/league.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
Crawford did improve his walk rate last year. I’d still like to see more offense from him before I get excited though.
WWRWD?
He did
And I think he’s an intriguing, but a guy who posts a slash line of .241/.337/.375 isn’t exactly someone I’m waiting to hang my hat on, even with his great glove. He also isn’t someone who projects to being a solid starter at this stage in his development, maybe he improves, maybe he doesn’t, but he’s a perfect example of a minor league player deemed a prospect for the very purpose of naming him a prospect.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
I think that you’re neglecting to consider his time in SJ in 2009. Crawford is considered a prospect because of his plus D, and his eye-popping offensive stats during his short stay in SJ. I’m not saying it’s a good reason, just that that is where his profile really jumped to the fore.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Understand that
But given the original point is that most guys deemed “prospects” aren’t prospects. Some of them are intriguing players like Crawford, but I don’t think at this point anyone could project Crawford as the type of player that once they’re on your team you feel covered at that position. Could he be? Certainly, but there’s tons of guys who fall in to that category, most of whom will never even get a cup of coffee.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly
my point (admittedly not well made) was about B level prospects. I think elite prospects have never been more valuable than they are now with salaries inflating so rapidly and the cost of a pre-arbitration homegrown player staying virtually the same. Roger’s information is a great illustration of that.
My point is that too often fans look at a group of B prospects and either see an entire team of the future ( in 5 years we’ll have Noonan at 2B, Gillaspie at 3B, Neal in RF, Keishnick in LF…) when in fact it would be nice to have just 1 of those guys become a major league regular, or think of them as some valuable trade package, somebody wanted to trade Jonathan Sanchez and a bunch of B/C prospects like Thomas Neal and Craig Wescott for Ryan Braun a few months ago (yes, that’s a straw man argument). I think lists like TDonk’s should be constantly brought up to remind people to keep their expectations realistic when it comes to B level prospects.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Nov 16, 2010 12:12 AM PST up reply actions
Realistic expectations on the interwebs? Next thing you’ll be trying to tell me there are girls here!
Or, in other words: well said.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Preach it Rev. Cookyman!
The Giants are 2010 World Series Champs. … And in other news the forecast calls for a rain of toads, heavy at times, with moderate to strong swarms of locust and a high likelihood of a world quake. Details at 11.
I feel like I should remember Marcus Sanders but I sure dont
"I dont always hit home runs, but when I do, I prefer World Series winning home runs"
All Your Fourth Outfielder Are Belong To Us!
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Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™
by S.F. Giangst on Nov 15, 2010 6:24 AM PST up reply actions
We graduated 2 A prospects
It’s not every year teams get top 10 picks and are able to select high end prospects.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
We graduated 2 A prospects and won the World Series! ; )
San Francisco Giants, 2010 World Series champions.
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Nov 15, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
lol Pirates
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Nov 15, 2010 8:09 AM PST up reply actions
Brown and Peguero in the top 5, Culberson, Adrianza, and Parker in the top ten…meh. I guess I’ve been spoiled by our recent bumper crops of prospects.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
I still like Adrianza
This year the average SS hit .262/.319/.374. With his defense, which everyone still insists is special, Adrianza can hit .246/.337/.325 (his career minor league line) in the majors and be an above average SS.
I like him too
but am scared he might just be another Bocock— it’s one thing to say “His defense is great! he doesn’t have to do much offensively to justify a starting spot.” It’s another thing for him to actually show he can make that actually work.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 14, 2010 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
Bocock was a junior at Stetson when he was Adrianza’s age. That’s the biggest difference.
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 14, 2010 9:04 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, in Bocock’s first (and best) year in the minors he hit .243/.312/.344 between A and A+ as a 22 year old. Adrianza did better than that this year, while spending the whole year in A+, at age 20. Also, Bocock never made a top-10 list, despite being ranked as the best defensive infielder in our system by BA, which shows how unimpressed scouts were with his bat. It seems like scouts do think Adrianza has a shot to be a decent hitter.
Burriss’s minor league numbers are actually very similar to Adrianza’s. If Adrianza can just add a bit of power to Burriss’s .264/.329/.302 major league line (and I don’t think Adrianza is quite as slappy as Burriss), he could be OK.
A point in Adrianza’s favor is the fact that he has an incredibly slight frame that has yet to fill out. 2 more years and he could add a lot of strength — he’s around 6’1" and only around 170 currently. He could add a lot of muscle in the coming years, which could drastically improve his power.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
To be fair
It could also limit his range/mobility, there’s definitely a give and take there.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Yeah
Even by just looking at him you can see how wiry he is. He could afford to fill out a bit more and could still keep his range.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Adrianza should move in
with the Sandoval family?
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez--
more game changing bunts than Buster Posey!
a World Champions San Francisco Giant of 2010!
by foothillsfan on Nov 15, 2010 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
On the other hand
We’ve got seven prospects at a B- or higher, which isn’t too bad. Last year we had ten, but three were relievers (Joaquin, Runzler, Stoffel). I don’t know why there’s so much pessimism about our system; we’ve got a lot of talent in the low minors, which is good considering the current team is good enough to win the World Series, so by the time they’re leaving or becoming expensive we’ll have a wave of talent ready to graduate to fill their spots cheaply.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
But we have pretty much the best starting rotation in the majors and they’re all under team control for the next two years at least…
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
ok but even if two of our starters were to go down with injury at the same time we’d still have 3 above average starting pitchers and just be scrambling to fill the back end of the rotation, thats the position most teams are in now.
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
That's always a concern for every team
I don’t see why we should be freaking out because we don’t have immediate replacements if one of our starters goes down. What do the Yankees do if they lose Cano? What do the Phillies do if they lose Utley? What do the Rangers do if they lose Hamilton? Replacing that production would be damned near impossible in cases of injury for every team, so that shouldn’t hold special significance.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Pitchers get injured more often than position players. Also, there is only one Robinson Cano, one Josh Hamilton, etc. There are 5 starting pitchers, and if any one of them gets injured, there is no replacement. Not having a backup starting pitcher isn’t like not having a backup 2B – it’s more like not having any backup 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, and catcher.
None of our top 5 starters spent a single day on the DL this year – how many teams can say that? I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re the only ones. I wouldn’t count on it happening again.
ummm
Todd Wellemeyer
Which I suppose just proves your point. It’s nice to have a Madison Bumgarner waiting in the wings… but that’s not gonna happen too often. Which is why, I suppose, they’re stretching out Runzler to see if maybe he could be a swing guy in the bullpen and making a spot start if needed? I dunno, I guess it’s a position we could address, but we really don’t need to go crazy. If we have to use a Ryan Sadowski type for a few games this year it won’t be the end of the world, and if we suffer more extensive pitching injuries then we’re pretty much boned no matter what we do.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 15, 2010 2:59 AM PST up reply actions
that's exactly who proves the point
And at the time Welly was the 5th starter Bumgarner was not exactly a lock to be a breakout pitcher in 2010. They struggled at times earlier in the year to find anyone to throw 3 innings in games. It’s important for rain delays and when freak mishaps knock a starter out just before game time.
It’s not a question now of “we’re screwed if a starter goes out for a year” it’s “there is literally no one other than the 5 starters able to pick up a few starts if someone sprains an ankle and misses a week or two”.
Defending WS champs have to think about such things.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum
by natteringnabob on Nov 15, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
He was one of the five starting pitchers.
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Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
Well it seems pretty analgous
Not having a backup starting pitcher isn’t like not having a backup 2B – it’s more like not having any backup 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, and catcher.
You can have one backup SP behind SP1 SP2 SP3 SP4 SP5 probably easier than you can have one backup superutilty guy behind 2B, 1B, 3B, LF, RF.
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by achiappanza on Nov 15, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Right
Because if the Giants lose 2 of 5 starters not named Barry Zito they’re screwed anyway.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
i thought there was going to be a wave from the 2007 draft
but it looks like only MadBum will be anything. maybe Culberson.
by repeat_in_2011 on Nov 14, 2010 11:10 PM PST up reply actions
we’ve got a lot of talent in the low minors
Relative to other organizations? I wouldn’t say so. We have a few interesting guys, but all teams can say that. That’s mostly what the low minors are. Both the Augusta and SK clubs this year were as bereft of prospects as I can remember in recent years and both, in particular the Augusta team were pretty old (Dominguez gets a lot of flak for his age, but he wasn’t the only 23 year old in that starting 9 — it was chock full of college grads). The AZL team had guys who we, as Giants fans, might look on as sleepers, but not a lot of guys who were exactly ringing the scouts bells.
I think of team like the Phillies Lakeland club that just had breakout years shooting off in every direction — now that’s a lot of talent at low levels. We have guys to keep an eye on.
One window with which to view the minors right now is to look at BA’s League Top 20s. I believe we had 11 players make appearances on those lists, which put us squarely in the middle of the 30 organizations. However, most of our guys made appearances in the 10-20 range rather than the Top 10, and the of the 3 guys who ranked very high on those lists, two (Posey and Bumgarner) are no longer prospects.
That those two guys just helped the big club win a championship is awesome. But let’s not pretend the system didn’t take a hit when they graduated. Obviously our system has produced a lot of talent in the last 5 years and that’s why we got to have a parade! So yeah! But right now it looks a little on the thin side. Hopefully next year we’ll have more bust outs and less regressions.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Brown’s walk rate is what really makes me nervous about him. He has a lot of good tools now if he can learn to take pitches and take some walks…
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
He walked in the Cape Cod League and in his first two years of college, and posted a 15% BB% in rookie ball for the Giants. Everyone is looking at that last year as his true talent level, without realizing that he hit .438, so he probably wasn’t looking to take too many pitches since he was getting a hit in half his ABs anyway and hits>walks.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
…and it was about 8% his freshman year.
Claiming he only didn’t draw walks because he had such a high average has been silly to me for two reasons. First, because patient hitters don’t stop being patient because they’re successful, and second, because he had cruddy walk rates in his first two college years, when he had batting averages of .292 and .340. Which look good, of course, but they’re pretty unexceptional when you’re talking about college prospects.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
incidentally
In his sophomore and junior years, he had more HBP than walks.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
3 things
1. Brown had a walk rate of over 8% in the 2009 Cape Cod League when he faced better pitching and had to use wooden bats. He’s obviously a very smart and adaptable player and he has improved his game (offensiely and defensively) every year he has played.
2. The coach of the CSUF team doesn’t encourage his hitters to walk and work counts. He’s notorious for wanting to put pressure on the opposing team by keeping his baserunners in constant motion and the ball in play.
3. When you’re hitting .429, with gap power, then you’re obviously seeing the ball very well and getting the pitch that you want to hit. None of us has any way of knowing that he wasn’t being a “patient” hitter. There are no stats to show how many pitches he saw in each AB. As far as you know he could have seen 3-4 pitches on average before putting the ball in play. What we do know is that he certainly wasn’t a wild-eyed hacker in his few weeks of playing for Scottsdale and S-K.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Nov 15, 2010 8:07 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Personally I’m in wait and see mode and like Evan I don’t think it’s at all out of the question that he changes his approach in the pro game. However, I’ve seen some variation of this comment in several places:
The coach of the CSUF team doesn’t encourage his hitters to walk and work counts. He’s notorious for wanting to put pressure on the opposing team by keeping his baserunners in constant motion and the ball in play.
and I have to say that seems a weaker argument to me, because Brown’s walk rates were dramatically lower than most of his teammates (Colon walked nearly 4x as often in 50 more ABs), and if you look back through the last 5-10 years of Fullerton history, Brown’s walk rate is still noticeably on the low end of the scale.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I’m going to go ahead and blame the coaching at Long Beach for the low walk rates.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
Although I don’t know what the coaches at LB had to do with how Brown played while at CSUF.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
So you’re saying I’m grasping at the wrong straws?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 8:11 AM PST up reply actions
Citing his 15% walk rate in rookie ball is pretty silly. That’s FOUR WHOLE WALKS in 27 PA.
In Low-A in the same number of PA, he had 2 walks. That’s a 7% walk rate.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
He can probably be a useful player if he can keep the walk rate at 7-8% and keep his average up – assuming his baserunning and defense are as good as advertised.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
My point was less that a 7% walk rate is untenable and more that citing a 15% walk rate as evidence that he can take walks is pretty silly when the sample size is so tiny that 2 walks makes the difference between 7% and 15%.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
And FWIW, I’m not entirely down on him ever having a chance to be a useful major leaguer. But as a first-round pick and one of the top prospects in our system, I find the guy pretty underwhelming.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
Second half of the first round picks are rarely as exciting as top half of the first round picks.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
In any case
I think we’ve gotten a bit spoiled with our first rounders the last few years. You can see it in the reaction to Wheeler’s season, in which he was not fantastic, but he showed a ton of potential. But if you look at how our other first rounders have done in their first pro seasons the last few years (Lincecum made the majors in his first full pro season, Bumgarner and Alderson both tore up their respective leagues their first year, same thing for Posey…)
I mean, that’s a ridiculous amount of success (even if one of them couldn’t sustain it.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Oh, totally. There are guys who didn’t go until the second round who I would’ve preferred to Brown, though.
Making calculations based upon statiscal histori-garbage rather than situation reality since 1980
Adopted Giant: Kaohi Downing, your next dominant reliever 1.47 ERA in S-K, with 34 K in 42 IP. Uh, just ignore his age and the walks, please!
I've seen videos of him
He has teh vrooooom. Plus speed definitely and would probably have a lot of range.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
What I meant to say was
Dude’s gonna hit .400! Who cares about walkz. Nerds, that’s who.
My Son
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Needs more Sundrendy Windster
Every prospect list needs to be long enough to get down to the guys who are there only because their names are so cool we really, really want them to at least get their cup of coffee.
The guy hasn't been terrible this year.
He looks like a clank in the outfield, but he’s hit pretty well so far.
Bonus points for the cruel parents giving him that name.
Don’t give your kid a name that’s going to get them teased into oblivion between the ages of 7 and 17. I once had a student… named Rainbo Grey. Really? I mean rainbow wasn’t even spelled correctly so she ended up being called “Breadhead” through parts of elementary school.
In that case, name approved.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Nov 15, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
I wonder if Bumgarner was teased as a kid. Not many boys named Madison.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Remember that video when he was still in AAA where he got ejected and threw his glove into CF? That seems so long ago, and it seems impossible that the poised unflappable guy who looks like his dog died every time the camera pans to him in the dugout is that same guy.
"What’s that, Buster? You asked for a bicycle? Well, sorry. Santa brought butt floss instead."
Yeah, but that happened before his dog died.
by Monkeyking42 on Nov 15, 2010 7:47 AM PST up reply actions
I’m guessing it would only happen once. Only about 3,100 people live in his hometown of Hudson, NC. I would think when everyone knows what goes on there.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
I feel like you can get away with stranger names in the country
there’s less frame of reference for people to compare it to to know it’s really weird.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 14, 2010 9:00 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, out there in the country they don’t have the television or them new fangled internets.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 7:41 AM PST up reply actions
fair point
of course, most of the people I know from the country are in their 20s, and thus predate the “newfangled internets,” so I guess maybe that explains some of the name strangeness
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 15, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
I know a few
Nobody makes fun of em really.
Yeah, what kind of asshole parent...
…is Dutch?
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Bipolar Stuffed Sheep of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
At the expense of a 'Read My Blog' comment...
Our Top 50 starts in December. And yes, Windster is in it.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Nov 15, 2010 12:16 AM PST up reply actions
Breaking!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 7:42 AM PST up reply actions
Anyone else surprised Ryan Verdugo does not get more love?
Has had a nice AFL season… Don’t know much about him other than that he pitched at LSU, but was a 9th rounder.
He only started one game last year
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
looks like the team is trying to add some more starting depth at the upper levels. We’re very thin there. A serious injury to one of our starting 5 and we’d have to make a deal for major league starter or bring up someone who isn’t very good or at least ready for the majors.
"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
2010 Giants: World Series Champs
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 14, 2010 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
true,
but the flip side of that is our starting is so good that we could, in a weird way, afford to have this be a problem because we’d just need to go out and find a 5th starter type.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 14, 2010 9:06 PM PST up reply actions
Starting in the AFL isn’t really like starting in other leagues – it’s more like long relief. Verdugo’s average innings per start is less than 3.1 – he’s on a very low pitch count.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
True, but it’s also a perfect place to try and stretch a guy a little in preparation. That 3.1 innings per outing may not seem like much, but it’s about double his innings per outing on the season.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Nov 15, 2010 12:18 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed
He most likely could pitch deeper into games, but the Giants have him on a pitch count – as do all the other teams have for guys they have pitching in the AFL.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Count me in this column
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Nov 15, 2010 12:16 AM PST up reply actions
As a fan who occasionally looks up stats on some of these prospects and otherwise has no basis for any knowledge whatsoever, I disagree on several points!
My Chrome player search extension and gut feelings tell me Peguero is going to flop at higher levels; Neal is better than he looks and is going to mash in AAA next year (and get blocked by some FA signing, so we won’t see him until August/September and he won’t get much playing time); Kickham will be the star breakout pitcher and vault up to near Wheeler on lists next year (which will be partially aided by Wheeler progressing some but not making huge strides); Culberson will bust but Adrianza will start hitting; and Conor Gillaspie will suddenly start hitting for more power.
Now I will bookmark this so I can laugh at myself later.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
I agree with a lot of this
I can’t get behind Peguero, he is just too much of a hacker…I am not sold on Culberson, either, he also has some hacktastic ratios going on and some CAL league inflated numbers. I am not optimistic about these guys next year in AA. I would love to be proved wrong, however…
I am holding out hope for Adrianza and Gilaspie, I feel like they have more solid foundations on which to improve their skills.
by Sgt. Dingleberry on Nov 15, 2010 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
Peguero’s a very problematic hacker. but I do agree with Sickels’ assessment that his tools are going to get him a shot at the big leagues because his tools are pretty loud in all phases of the game. It’s a matter of whether he can make the adjustments needed to take advantage of them once he gets there. Gilaspie’s really the flip side of the coin. He’s going to have to overcome a lot of below-average major league tools (glove, arm, speed, power) and that’s a lot to overcome.
In the end Peguero’s margin for error is much higher than Gilaspie’s in that he can be a useful player without getting anywhere near his ceiling. I mean he could probably come up to SF and be something along the lines of a RH version of Schierholtz right now (although I realize people are going to disagree with that assessment vehemently). He’s an excellent defensive OF with a great arm, and can use his speed to play up his bat.
I hope he makes adjustments with his offensive approach. But whether he does or not, I believe we’ll see him at the Phone Booth in the future getting his shot. The same is quite probably true of Adrianza. Gillaspie? Not so much IMO.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I think your assessment of Peguero is spot on.
I agree with Ott that Kickham and Neal will do well this year, and Culberson not so much. But I don’t see any real future for Adrianza or Gillaspie. I still believe in Brandon Crawford, however, which I believe most folks here do not.
"(Christy) Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball. The first statement means the same as the second." - Damon Runyon
You're right
To be honest, I was essentially just thinking about their hitting abilities when I wrote my initial post.
The comp I keep coming up for Gillaspie is Dave Hansen, at the very worst, I hope he can become a decent bat of the bench who doesn’t play much defense…
by Sgt. Dingleberry on Nov 15, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
Speaking of prospects
Who needs to be added to the 40-man roster this winter to be protected from the Rule 5 draft? Is Neal one of them?
Rule 5 draft eligibles
So it should be the high schoolers and international signees from 2006 and the college guys from 2007. Neal was a draft and sign from 2005 who actually signed in 2006.
I believe Neal, Casilla, and Adrianza would be the logical adds. Tanner, J. Williams, Monell, Edlefsen, Patterson, and Correa are possibilities.
Don't think he ever gets the chance
I don’t think the Giants value him that much. I think he’ll eventually need to go to another organization.
Don't be too sure
Remember Brian Bocock made it to the majors and Jackson Williams is the catching version of Brian Bocock.
It would be Whiteside who Jax would replace
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Oh yeah
And I like Hector Sanchez too. And who knows about Tommy Joseph
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
I posted this on another fanpost, so I'll cut and paste here
Well I believe that would include all the college players drafted in 2007, so guys like
Jackson Williams
Brock Bond
Craig Clark
Daniel Turpen
Michael Ambort
Steve Edlefsen
Joe Paterson
Shane Jordan
Kyle Nicholson
Johnny Monell
Oliver Odle
Dan Otero
Chance Corgan
Andrew Reichardt
David Mixon
TJ Brewer
Andy D’Alessio
I’d say Brock Bond is the guy most likely to be nabbed out of that group. I suppose Jax could be nabbed by somebody as a backup catch and throw guy, except I wouldn’t be surprised if the Giants add him to the 40 man before we get there. And I suppose somebody could take a flyer on Monell or Edlefsen or even Turpen.
We should maybe include Wendell Fairley on that list, who was a HS draftee, but he was 19 when they signed him which puts him on the 4 year side of the divide.
Then you get the HS players from 2006. That would be
Clayton Tanner
Matt Klimas
plus Thomas Neal who was a 2005 draft and follow
Some of the UDFA who’ve been around for 5 years:
Jose Casilla
Kelvin Marte
Jose Valdez
Eliezer Zambrano
Jose Medina
Wilmin Rodriguez
Julio Izturis
Edward Concepcion
Ehire Adrianza
Jose Flores
Jose Medina
Wilbur Bucardo
A few live armed possibilities from that group. Obviously Jose Casilla and Ehire Adrianza would be at risk. I’m sure Adrianza will be added to the 40 man. If I were a team I think I’d sue a Rule 5 pick on Wilmin Rodriguez. I think he could stick in a team’s bullpen for a year easily.
And lastly of course you have all the guys who were eligible last year and weren’t picked, college guys from 2006 (Mike McBryde, Tyler Graham, Brad Boyer etc) and HS of other players signed at 18 or younger from 2005 and earlier.
I’m sure I missed a few, but that’s a decent start. I’m guessing they add Neal, Jax, Ehire, and maybe Clayton Tanner and Jose Casilla to the 40 man, drop Brett Pill and perhaps Alex Hinshaw. At greatest risk to be gone are I think Brock Bond, Wilmin Rodriguez, and Tanner and Jose Casilla (if not added).
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Question:
Was Turpen the PTBNL in the Guillen trade? Or am I imagining things?
Yeah, he was. I just forgot about that when I made up this list.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
No, he wasn't
Turpen was traded to Boston in the Ramirez deal. The PTBNL in the Guillen trade was Pucetas.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Good work Roger, but I think you’ve got you’re math wrong. The rules on the Rule 5 draft eligibilty are:
Players are eligible for selection in the Rule 5 draft who are not on their major league organization’s 40-man roster and:
– were signed at age 19 or older and have been in the organization for four years; or
– were signed at age 18 or younger and have been in the organization for five years.
The college guys that were drafted in 2007 all signed between June and Augst 2007. Add 4 years to that and you get June through August of 2011. Likewise, the high school guys that were drafted in 2006 won’t reach the 5 year limit until next summer. So Jax Williams and the vast majority of the guys that you list above will not be eligible to be stolen away from us.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I was trying to figure that out before I posted, because it does seem like the first full season should be where the clock starts. However, looking at last year’s Rule 5 draft, college players taken in the 2006 draft were selected (our on Ben Snyder for one) which led me to believe that the year the players are signed is counted as the first year.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
That's interesting
Maybe if a player signs early enough to play a full season of ss-A or rookie league ball he’s considered to have 1 year of eligibility off the books even though they’ve only been in the org for 3 monhs?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I found the definitive info at BA
My previous posting was wrong in that it uses the terms “years” and “were signed at”. The correct way to look at it is by the number of Rule 5 drafts that have been held since the player signed, and what his age was on June 5th of the year that he signed his contract. Specifically:
The criteria centers on the player’s age on the June 5 preceding the date of his contract. If a player is 19 or older on that date immediately preceding the player’s signing, the player is subject to selection at the fourth selection meeting that follows. It’s five selection meetings for those that are 18 or older that sign on that date.
So it doesn’t matter how many games that you play after you sign your contract, you can actually not play any games, it’s just the fact that you have a signed contract when the Rule 5 draft takes place that year.
Also, it’s not your age on the day that you sign a contract that counts, it’s what your age was on the preceding June 5th before you signed.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
The Giants Rule 5 guys
That means that the guys that get added to the list right now are the 2006 college draftees and the 2005 HS draftees:
Brad Boyer
Tyler Graham
Matt Klimas (he was a JC player, not a HS as you listed)
Darryl Maday
Johnny Monell
Eric Stolp
Clayton Tanner
Add to that the names of all the guys that were eligible last year:
Brian Anderson
Ben Copeland
Geno Espinellie
Alex Hinshaw
David Newton
Brett Pill, Ryan Rohlinger, and Manny Burriss would have all been eligible, but they’re already on the 40 man roster already.
Thomas Neal is a unique case. He was drafted out of high school in 2005, but didn’t sign until 2006 (after playing 1 season for a JC). However, he was still 18 years old when he signed (his DOB=8/17/87), so he will not be eligible for the draft until next year (2006 + 5 = 2011).
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Roger is right
Last year we were discussing Pill, Snyder, McBryde and such.
Yeah last year’s draft was mostly guys who were 2006 draftees, 19 and over. In addition to Snyder, John Raynor, Hector Ambriz, Jorge Jiminez, Zech Zinicola, Kaneoka Texiera, Ben Jukich, and David Herndon all fit that profile. While players like Brett Pill (2006 draftee) were put on the 40 man to protect them from the draft. And Steven Johnson, who we selected, was taken in the 2005 draft as an 18 year old.
That’s why I made the cutoff where I did, although it was supposition on my part.
BTW, I know Klimas was a CC player, but he was 18 when he signed, that’s why I included him with HS players.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
What's up with Adrianza?
MLB.com has the following info on him:
Signed with Giants as a non-drafted free agent on March 8, 2002
But that would mean he signed with the Giants at the age of 12 – that can’t be right.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Doesn’t seem quite right, does it? He started playing for the Giants in 2006 as a 16 year old, so I’m guessing he was signed somewhere between his 16th birthday in Aug. 2005 and the beginning of the 2006 DSL season.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Yeah, probably March 2006. Which means we need to put him on the 40 man roster right now. Don’t you think that Gillaspie and Hinshaw should be dropped from the 40 man now?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I do, but I doubt they’ll drop Gillaspie and they may even try to protect Hinshaw (who will almost certainly be selected in spite of his obvious command issues). Pill I think is a no brainer to drop.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I think they keep Pill on it. He still has the possibility of being a very useful trade chip next year if he has another breakout year at the plate like he did in 2009. I think that they drop Gillaspie, because there’s no team that’s going to keep him on their 25 man roster for the whole season even if they do pick him up. The only caveat to that is that there’s a strong possibiltiy that the Giants are contractually obligated to keep Gillaspie on the 40 man roster (remember the screwy contract that he signed in 2008). Hinshaw is superfluous with Affeldt, Lopez, Runzler, and Paterson around.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Well my thinking on Pill is:
1) He’s limited to 1B which is getting crowded at the major league level (with the possibilities of Huff and Panda);
2) He’s been passed on the org depth chart by Belt (and by “passed” I really mean "blown off the side of the road into a ditch somewhere); and
3) He was never much of a prospect to begin with.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I agree with points #1 and #2, but not #3. His surprising power numbers and well-above average offensive season in the very difficult EL (while playing his home games in the extreme pitcher’s park in Connecticut), along with his above-average D at 1B, definitely marked him as a legit prospect going into last season.
Also, since neither the Panda or Huff situations will be settled by the time of the draft next week then I’m betting the Giants want to keep Pill around if only as insurance.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
For a 24 year old 1B there was nothing particularly above average about his year in AA and his 25 year old year in the PCL was really underwhelming. He hit 20 HRs at Connecticut which is nice, but the .348 OBP and .480 SLG were entirely pedestrian. Even discounting guys like Ike Davis and Jesus Montero and Carlos Santana, who were of course very good to great prospects, even meh prospects like Brandon Snyder (.597) or Scott Sizemore (.535) or even Ian Desmond (.494) outslugged Pill in the EL in 2009. And of course Pill was older than all those guys. There’s just nothing exciting in his prospect profile and with Belt around I’m fine with cutting him loose.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Extreme youth movement!
Start signing all of the little league stars early. It’s a good move.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Nov 15, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
I don't have the specific names
but basically it’s 2007 College draftees and 2006 (and earlier) HS draftees + JuCo draftees + International signings
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
4 LYFE
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Let’s just start with another 1-2 years first.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Nov 15, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I like Wheeler way more than Brown. He’s still reasonably young, with the stuff to produce strikeouts and ground balls.
OTOH
Position player prospects are universally more likely to succeed than pitching prospects. TINSTAAPP, etc.
My Son
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Except for the past 2 decades in the Giants farm system those odds are reversed.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
No such thing as a positional prospect?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 7:47 AM PST up reply actions
Semi-OT
last year’s draft was weird. I remember a lot of people being kind of upset that we drafted Brown, but looking at the list of drafted players now, I can’t remember who it was that people wanted instead…. was there even a consensus? I remember really hoping for Christian Colon, but of course he went super-high.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 14, 2010 9:09 PM PST reply actions
Zack Cox?
The clank at 3rd base who doesn’t have much power , from what I remember.
But HE HAS OBP SKILLZ.
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 14, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions
I really wanted Castellanos
but looking back I overrated him. If we could do the draft again, I’d want to take Garin Cecchini. I think a lot of people also wanted Zack Cox
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
by Gobroks on Nov 14, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Has anyone made the obligatory “People wanted Cox” joke yet?
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Nov 15, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Yes
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
How about the ‘Your Cecchini is jealous’ jokes?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
I don't remember seeing too many of those
Maybe a couple though
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
I was hoping for one of the high-priced talents who fell: Zack Cox, Nick Castellanos, Anthony Ranaudo, Gerin Cecchhiiiccini.
Cecchini went in the 3rd round and most were surprised he went that high. On draft day 1 during the 1st round not a single poster on the McCoven was asking for the Giants to draft him.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I was into Colon
Austin Wilson too, but apparently dude really wanted to go to Stanford. Anthony Ranaudo and Bryce Brentz too (both in the Red Sox’s organization, iirc).
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
"I was into Colon"
So was Brian Sabean in 2003…..
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
BUTT
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
I liked Colon
But never expected him to be drafted so high. I remember I wanted Tony Wolters though I was hoping he was going to get to the Giants in the second round which he did but was a little disappointed when they didn’t pick him. He ended up I think getting picked 5th in the 3rd round.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
When do the Community Projections begin?
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Nov 14, 2010 9:16 PM PST reply actions
You mean the Community Prospect List?
Projections usually don’t start until Spring Training.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yeah, that is what I meant.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Nov 14, 2010 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
that Dodger site is already voting on Prospect #16
by repeat_in_2011 on Nov 14, 2010 9:54 PM PST up reply actions
The Dodger site got to the postseason more quickly.
The Giants won the World Series.
by FreshStart on Nov 14, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions 8 recs
Belt and Wheeler
I imagine Wheeler will be a solid 3 guy we plug in at the end of our rotation when Zito’s contract expires. I dont expect great things from him (sad since he was the 6th pick) but I think he will produce some decent years for the Giants.
I think Belt is good enough that, should we lose Huff, he could come in and start the season and possibly win ROY. I think even if we sign Huff, Belt is a September call-up with the prospect of moving Huff to LF to finish out his contract after ’11 (however long his contract runs).
by Michael Uhlhorn on Nov 14, 2010 9:18 PM PST reply actions
I dont expect great things from him (sad since he was the 6th pick)
Any particular reason why?
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 14, 2010 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
Because, clearly, our minor league system is bad. Because Wheeler is our best pitching prospect. And he’s only a solid 3 guy who will only produce a couple of decent years for the Giants. Which is why our minor league system is bad.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
yeah, its probably bad now again
what would our minor league be rated now, 20th or worse?
and after Belt there’s probably not much to get excited about for a few years.
by repeat_in_2011 on Nov 14, 2010 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t follow the system as well as others on this site, but I thought Wheeler profiles as a Matt Cain clone. Nothing too wrong about that.
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Nov 14, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions
last i heard Keith Law rated Wheeler about #75 or so
by repeat_in_2011 on Nov 14, 2010 10:02 PM PST up reply actions
Not a great comp
Wheeler gets a lot of groundballs and Cain is an extreme Flyball pitcher
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
what Ott said
Wheeler = Cain in meme only (CIMO)
by TimLaser and MattyC on Nov 14, 2010 10:23 PM PST up reply actions
I said I don't expect great things,
but a solid 3 starter is what J. Sanchez is, so that is pretty good. I have seen him pitch, and I just dont think he has the ceiling of a Cain, Lincecum or Bumgarner. I think he will be a less-wild Sanchez. That isn’t bad at all, just not dominant (nothing wrong with that).
by Michael Uhlhorn on Nov 15, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
A less wild Sanchez is, actually, dominant.
by BestHyperboleEver on Nov 15, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Perhaps
But it is no Lincecum nor Cain.
by Michael Uhlhorn on Nov 15, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
Actually...
If he cut his BB/9 down to league average and all the rest of his stats stayed the same he would very likely be as good, if not better, than both of them.
That said, his wildness likely helps him in some ways. If he spent more time in the zone his BAA and hits/9 would likely rise a bit.
by BestHyperboleEver on Nov 15, 2010 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
He doesnt have the skills that Lince or Cain has. Even with control he is not as good as they are.
by Michael Uhlhorn on Nov 15, 2010 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
That just isn't true
Sanchez has better stuff than Cain for sure, maybe as good as Lincecum’s. Sanchez gets significantly more swings and misses on balls in the zone than Cain (career Z-contact% of 84.1% vs 86.8%), even more than Timmy does. If he had good control he would be an elite pitcher, better than Cain and perhaps as good as Lincecum. (Lincecum gets more swings and misses on balls out of the zone, but maybe Sanchez would get more of those if he were ahead in the count more often.)
Of course, as Mr. Hyperbole says, his wildness may in fact be inseparable from his deceptiveness.
I’m confused. Are we talking about Wheeler here or Sanchez?
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Wheeler’s got a #1 ceiling apparently (plus velocity. If he becomes a #3 that’ll be a slight disappointment to me.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Someone (Callis maybe?)
Said he has #1 upside, but could be similar to Daniel Bard if he moves to the bullpen
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Few guys who have #1 ceilings actually live up to it
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Oh I know. That’s why it would only be a slight disappointment. But I’ve heard he’s got the potential to sit in the high 90’s with his fastball, and the strikeout-grounder combination is just so sexy. Plus, I kind of always think players should live up to their potential, and if they miss it by that much (#2 starter would be just fine), there’s probably something they could have done but didn’t to get there. That’s obviously not always the case, and it’s quite possibly unfair (and hypocritical) of me.
And then there’s the bit where I would just love to see the Giants rotation go 1-5 for homegrown #1’s (Cain’s borderline, probably there, Bumgarner will probably be there in a year, Lincecum’s already there obviously, and Sanchez still has some work to do with his control, but the stuff is certainly legit).
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Cain borderline ace? What do you make of his 0 era in 3 postseason starts? oh wait 1 ER means his 3rd starter at best!!
I’m concerned about his LOB% and BABIP, with slight issues with his K/9. He’s posted a BABIP around .260 for the last two years, which is directly correlated to 3.00-or-so ERA. If he’s going to have a BABIP that low and post a 3.00 ERA, he needs to strike more guys out to maintain the ERA. His K/9 is good, but it’s not elite, and that’s usually a quality of a No. 1 guy.
And I make nothing of his 0.00 ERA in three postseason starts, because that’s just three starts. Cain is a borderline #1, as I said, a guy who can be counted on to produce a mid to high 3’s ERA under normal conditions. On some teams, that’s the ace, on others, it’s the #2. I think if Cain could strike a few more guys out he would rightly be called an ace.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I might be wrong about 3 starter talent
I just dont see him as number 1 quality. I really hope I am wrong about that, but I think he will be a 200 inning, sub-4.00 ERA pitcher for quite a few years. People are posting like I called him Livan Hernandez
by Michael Uhlhorn on Nov 15, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, it would be outstanding if Wheeler had Livan’s career.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I don't mind the lack of top tier talent
Give them another year in the minors and hope someone like Belt jumps up and makes a name for himself.
MadBum and Posey make up for any deficiencies we may have in the minors, and I’m damn glad they panned out so far.
Still no love for Eric Surkamp?
The guys been fantastic at every level with incredible K/9 rates everywhere he’s been. I know people are down on him because of his lack of velocity but if we’ve learned anything from Moneyball it’s that judging an arm based on strength alone is short sighted (young Barry Zito was similarly cast aside by other ballclubs).
Croix De Candlestick: You'll be a better person for reading | My adopted Giant: the next Buster Posey, Johnny Monell
by Chulk on Nov 14, 2010 11:07 PM PST via mobile reply actions
12 seems like a good ranking for him
For now. If he does well in AA, I think you have to bump him up to B- territory.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I'm too lazy
So I’ll just do a cut-and-paste from what I posted on John Sickel’s site.
It’s obvious that John put a lot of time and effort into his list, because most of these guys aren’t well-known or highly thought of. It would have been very easy for him to just assume the party line and say that the Giants have nothing in the cupboard beyond the top 3 or 4 guys.
On the whole I agree with John’s letter grades. Strangely enough, he rated several of the guys higher than I do, and I’m the huge Giants fan. I’m especially surprised to see that he has Peguero, Casilla, and Parker as high as B-. I would rank them as C+, C+, and C, respectively (with Parker being the C). I would also drop Michael Main to a C, and Chris Dominguez to a C-. On the other hand, he has Chuckie Jones rated as a C- (or even lower – he didn’t give him an actual grade), and I would rate him as a solid C+. He’s a 5-tool stud that displayed the ability to stick in CF, and instantly translated his plus power potential into actual game power while playing in the AZL as a 17 year old. BA rated him as having the best pro debut of any high school player in the 2010 draft.
Those are minor quibbles, but I have some major disagreements on where everybody should be ranked. Obviously, from what I wrote previously, I think he has Peguero, Casilla, Parker, and Dominguez ranked too high – with Casilla being the most egregious over-ranking. I’m also surprised that he likes Peguero so much, because Francisco seems to have way too many holes in his game that will be exploited mercilessly as he heads to AA next season, and continues to try and climb the ladder.
The main guys that I think he has too low are Chuckie Jones, Brandon Crawford, Kickham, and Hembree.
Crawford’s defense is on par with Adrianza’s, but his bat is already much better than Adrianza’s will likely ever be able to evolve into. Don’t ignore the fact that Crawford made big strides in his approach at the plate this past season, while repeating in the EL. He upped his OBP from .294 in 2009 to .337 in 2010, and his BB-rate jumped up to 11.6% (way above-average) as compared to the 4.8% rate that he posted in 2009.
Mike Kickham did struggle with his control and his consistency in college in 2010, but he improved as the year progressed, and he produced a significant and prolonged jump in his velocity. By the summer his FB was sitting around 92 mph, and touching 95. He also developed a good power curve/slurve with great depth that could easily become a plus pitch for him. Lefties with that kind of stuff are hard to find. Give Kickham some time with Dick Tidrow, Steve Kline, and the other Giants pitching gurus this offseason and watch him explode onto the scene next year.
Heath Hembree already has a plus FB and above-average slider. His FB sits at 94-96 and has touched 100 mph. He’s also one of those rare things – a college closer whose team made it into the NCAA tournament, but who wasn’t overused and abused. He’s a thrower now, and just needs to learn how to be a pitcher in the pros. He could easily be pitching in the SF pen by the beginning of the 2011 season.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Yes it is
Sucks Amend’s only doing Sunday strips now tho.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
He’s pretty old for his level. He has power but unless he moves to AA/AAA next season I don’t expect much.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
I don't see him
Moving up to AAA at the start of the season. He’s turning 24 next week and he hasn’t even made it to San Jose yet. He would have to start in AA and do very well to merit a promotion to AAA. He shouldn’t play in the Cal League because those will just inflate his stats. If he does very well in AA then maybe I’ll change my opinion but right now it’s a no.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
if a prospect is gonna skip a level
maybe it should be San Jose. So many games in high desert parks where the air is thin, and curve balls are not effective. So even if he hits in A+ you don’t really learn anything.
Yes, AA is tough, and full of good pitchers. And would be a big leap. But at age 24, let Dominguez flail there for a while. At least it is a similar part of the USA to Augusta, he could be more comfortable there than Out Here On The Coast.
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez--
more game changing bunts than Buster Posey!
a World Champions San Francisco Giant of 2010!
by foothillsfan on Nov 15, 2010 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
No way that happens
Dominguez was old coming out of college and he didn’t even start at San Jose last year. He starts at SJ this year and is a candidate for a quick promotion
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
What about Rosin?
Do you think Rosin is a top 20 guy? Interested to hear your take.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 5:23 AM PST up reply actions
RE: Rosin
I had him ranked at #14 on my list. Here’s what I wrote about him:
14. Seth Rosin (RHP): A strong workhorse of a man, with an above-average FB with nice late movement that he can already command and control. Given his ability to limit his free passes, I think that he can move very quickly through the system as a reliever if he can develop a decent secondary strikeout pitch (change or slider). However, seeing how stocked the Giants are in the bullpen in both the majors and minors, I’d like the Giants to be patient with him and let him develop as a starter. All he needs is to develop 2 above-average secondary pitches (I’d prefer the changeup and the slider, but he already has a decent curve) to be a back of the rotation mainstay.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Couldn't agree more
However, I would also add about him, that he could be a guy who, due to his size-6’7", could develop even more velocity, than 93-94 while touching 95, that he currently sits at.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 8:00 AM PST up reply actions
I like Chuckie Jones, and agree that he’s around a C+ guy for us, and deserves to be in the top-20. But the K% scares me — a lot. And that line from BA about the best HS debut bugs me — since most top HS talents from the draft didn’t play, it’s practically meaningless, IMO.
I agree with you about everyone else, but I think you’re a bit low on Peguero and his incredible athleticism.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
I love Peguero’s speed and athleticism, but I question his baseball smarts and ability to hit against top-level pitching. The fact that he’s still striking out so much and making silly baserunning mistakes is very troubling. We’ll find out tin quick order, as Richmond and the EL will be a tough gig for him next season.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Nov 15, 2010 7:44 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If Sickels is this high on Brown and Parker...
Anyone think there’s a chance that they could be dealt for Dan Uggla? I know the farm system is somewhat depleted, but a package of Brown, Parker, Main and Neal might get something like that done, depending on FLA’s feelings about those guys. Since I don’t project any of them to be more than bench players, with the exception of Brown who could potentially be a averagish starter maybe it’s time to sell high, especially with the Giants on the hook for signing bonuses.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
Florida tends to trade for prospects that they can plug right into the lineup. Also, neither Brown nor Parker will be eligible to be traded for another 10 months or so. And lastly, trading 6 cost controlled years of a #1 you haven’t even seen in action yet for majors leaguers walk year isn’t necessarily a good risk/reward scenario. Trading 12 cost controlled years of a 1 and 2 raises the risk without helping the reward any.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Forgot about the waiting period before draftees can be traded. Normally I would agree about trading cost controlled players, but trading cost controlled players who, IMO, don’t project to be stars or even everyday players for one year of someone who could potentially help win another World Series is a good investment, but only if you feel, as I do, that that one players production over one year will be greater than the sum of all of the prospects production combined. I know I’m probably alone in that camp, but I think the only reason these guys are even discussed is that the Giants system is bottom heavy and fairly thin. If Posey and Bumgarner don’t make the leap this year we’re not even talking about guys like Main, Parker or Neal.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 5:27 AM PST up reply actions
There’s so much uncertainty with those guys, I don’t know if you can really say they don’t project to be everyday players. And the Marlins probably wouldn’t be cool with trading Uggla for dudes they won’t be able to have in their system until August anyway.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yeah
Besides the rumor that the Marlins want pitching prospects for Uggla – and they want them to be in the majors or very close to it. Rumor has it that the Blue Jays will play ball, and they certainly have the pitching prospects to interest the Marlins.
Beyond that, I wouldn’t trade a lot of highly-rated prospects for only 1 year of Uggla. Sure there’s a big statistical probability that the prospects don’t pan out, but htere’s also a chance that Uggla doesn’t pan out or that he gets injured. There’s no guarantee that he’ll be rated a Type A, or that we’d get 2 comp picks when he leaves.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I don’t know what his Elias Ranking is right now, but I feel like it would take a pretty huge collapse for him not to be a Type A. 30 HR a year the last four years and 90+ RBI the last three is what they like to see.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I agree with you about Brown and Parker. There’s a whole world of uncertainty with those guys, but as far as Main and Neal are concerned, unless something about them changes, I feel pretty comfortable projecting guys like that, however, in Main’s case, pitchers are much more difficult to project.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 8:01 AM PST up reply actions
I’m confused: why is Dan Uggla number one on our trade target hit parade these days? We already have a pretty good second baseman, and you can’t play Uggla at third unless you’re prepared to give up on a 24-year-old with a career 120 OPS+. Shouldn’t we focus our rosterbation instead on Colby Rasmus or Steven Drew or B.J. Upton or someone like that?
Please yes
I mean, there’s no way the Cards can be that dumb, but I really hope they are.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
It’s a real problem for them; if Pujols and LaRussa don’t like a guy, it’s going to be hard to find a place for him on the team, no matter how talented he may be.
problem is if they are that dumb
I don’t think we have the pieces to get that trade done, much as I’d love to. But the starting point to even get them to talk would be MadBum (and they’d want more on top of that), and I’ve grown attached to Madison.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 15, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
With Carpenter, Wainwright, and Garcia
I don’t think they want pitching. They need infield help; their 2B/3B/SS spots were terrible last year. Unfortunately, we don’t really have anything there outside of Pablo, and while I would absolutely trade Pablo for Rasmus straight up, I don’t think they would.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
For cheap, sure
But Upton’s done nothing the last two years, and he’s hitting his late twenties. I’m not sure we can reasonably expect him to do anything particularly valuable at this point.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I'd prefer Rasmus too
But whether or not he can be had remains to be seen and as far as I’m concerned, Sandoval is a huge question mark. Uggla could also slide over and play 1st base too. I don’t see Drew getting traded within the division and BJ Upton might be nice, but is also a question mark. I think the reason you see Uggla mentioned so often is because he’s on the block and the Giants have been close to dealing for him several times.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
by Giant Torture on Nov 15, 2010 8:32 AM PST up reply actions
Upton would be a nice gamble
Because the one thing that we know he brings (speed and stolen bases) are both things that we kind of lack and would play well at AT&T. plus maybe playing in closer proximity to his brother would mean that some of Justin’s ability would rub off on him or something.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 15, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Even if we wanted a 2B I’m not sure Uggla’s the guy I’d go for. Rickie Weeks is apparently available, too. And I saw a rumor this morning that the Brewers would consider trading Brett Lawrie for a young pitcher, which frankly I’d be a lot more interested in in terms of long-range planning.
But yeah, I’m definitely in the Colby Rasmus/Steven Drew line.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Weeks mostly could not hit
when facing the giants this year. Maybe has hit his ceiling, while league has adjusted to him.
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez--
more game changing bunts than Buster Posey!
a World Champions San Francisco Giant of 2010!
by foothillsfan on Nov 15, 2010 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
The entirety of major league baseball...
could not hit when facing the Giants this year.
by BestHyperboleEver on Nov 15, 2010 4:34 PM PST up reply actions
Weeks put up a .368 wOBA this year. It’s not that bad a ceiling. And as he wouldn’t have to face the Giants if he played for them, one can only assume a little more room to improve.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I like Surkamp and Stoffel more than Sickels.
Not as high on Brown, Parker, or Culberson.
Ask me about my blog.
Yeah, he got that one just right. Overall it seems like a good list, though I’m surprised not to see Noonan or RafRod even in the honorable mentions.
I thought a lot of his comments really did a good job of hitting the right note of cautious optimism/red flags. Actually, I was a little surprised because it seems to me Sickels doesn’t usually show much in depth knowledge of the Giants system (in part because he mostly doesn’t get out to the coasts to see games — he tends to keep his trips with flyover country).
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
+1
He does like to hit games within driving distance, doesn’t he? I agree with you that I was pleasantly surprised at how highly-rated and well-scouted his list was. It will be very interesting to me to see if any of these grades get moved downwards when it is finalized next year.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I've been saying it doesn't matter if Buster wins
Now I just realized that I’ll be pissed if he doesn’t.
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
by NuschlerFace on Nov 15, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
I was pissed that they gave McCann the Silver Slugger over Buster last week. Other than walks, Buster put up better offensive numbers than McCann in about 55 fewer games.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
That’s not why they didn’t vote for him. In the past, they’ve given the award to players that played much fewer games than that at their stated position. They gave it to McCann based on his reputation and familiarity.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
He was AWESOME during those 10 games though
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
by NuschlerFace on Nov 15, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Buster Won This
That’s all I ever wanted, needed, or dreamed of.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
by jctGamer on Nov 15, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
All I ever wanted, all I ever needed
is there, in his arms.
Words are very
Unnecessary
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
by NuschlerFace on Nov 15, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but...
He doesn’t get to keep that bit of hardware on his mantle.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Todd Hollandsworth got to keep his
;p
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
WHO WON
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
OT
#Phillies’ Roy Halladay named to cover of @2ksports MLB 2K11
BUSTER POSEY ON THE COVER OF MLB 11 FTW!!!
BUSTER MOTHERFUCKING POSEY
I'm still in the old thread.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Nov 15, 2010 11:03 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
YES!!!!
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
HE did it!
Our Saviour, what can’t He do?
by posey yaknowsy on Nov 15, 2010 11:04 AM PST reply actions
Hmmm
I’m torn. Heyward was probably a more valuable rookie, so the voters likely got it wrong, but I’m happy for Buster.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
It's too hard to call
Buster did not play the whole year so one is left to guess as to what would have happened…
I think voters saw how valuable Buster was to our winning the division.
That stat 52-32 or something when Molina was traded is pretty indicative of Buster’s value for the Gigantes
by posey yaknowsy on Nov 15, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
No, not really
It’s actually the opposite. He didn’t play the whole year, he only gets credit for what he played. I don’t even know how someone could argue otherwise.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
My point is that if you are Buster believer, you think that he would met and exceeded the Heyward had he played the whole year…
If you are for Heyward, you would argue he did do it for the whole year and Buster may have slumped (which he did at the end of the year) had he played the whole year.
Or, if you do it logically
You just give them each the credit they earned and decide who was better. It’s not a hypothetical, it’s a what happened.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Posey was simply more valuable than Heyward to their respective teams.Regardless of how long they played, even probably taken into account… simply more valuable. Like McCovey who won it playing like 40 games.
by posey yaknowsy on Nov 15, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
Hm
And here I thought the Braves only made the playoffs on the last day of the season and would have had no chance of making it if not for Heyward.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
I don't think there was a clear right answer
It depends on how you weigh quantity vs quality. Heyward provided more value, but that’s because he had two extra months. Posey was the better player.
It's obviously quantity and quality
Both are important.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Buster’s degree of difficulty is much higher.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 15, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I know it's a poor argument, but from a very shallow POV...
It’s hard to be more valuable to your team than being the best hitter on the team, hitting clean-up while playing excellent defense at arguably the most challenging position on the field and catching the best staff in baseball for a World Series winner.
by BestHyperboleEver on Nov 15, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Baggs did us proud, actually voted Posey #1
by posey yaknowsy on Nov 15, 2010 11:07 AM PST reply actions
Hmmm, he got 20 out of 32 first place votes.
it wasn’t as close as they said it would be.
Gaby Sanchez
…got 2 first place votes. Floridians really hate baseball.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Nov 15, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
One thing that you have to understand about Florida is that it’s actually 2 states rolled into 1. Just like California, the northern part of the state is where, in general, the smart, thoughtful, and productive people live, while the south houses almost all of the all-flash, little-substance citizens. And just like California, the south is way more populous than the north.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Let's hope the ROY jinx does not get to Buster
Last 10 ROY
NL:
2009 Chris Coghlan Florida
2008 Geovany Soto Chicago
2007 Ryan Braun Milwaukee
2006 Hanley Ramirez Florida
2005 Ryan Howard Philadelphia
2004 Jason Bay Pittsburgh
2003 Dontrelle Willis Florida
2002 Jason Jennings Colorado
2001 Albert Pujols St. Louis
2000 Rafael Furcal Atlanta
AL
2009 Andrew Bailey Oakland
2008 Evan Longoria Tampa Bay
2007 Dustin Pedroia Boston
2006 Justin Verlander Detroit
2005 Huston Street Oakland
2004 Bobby Crosby Oakland
2003 Angel Berroa Kansas City
2002 Eric Hinske Toronto
2001 Ichiro Suzuki Seattle
2000 Kazuhiro Sasaki Seattle
Here’s the voting. A Japanese relief pitcher that I’ve never heard of came in second.
It doesn’t look to me as though there was a better choice. It was a pretty bad year for AL rookies, but a rookie SS with a .324 wOBA is actually reasonably impressive.
Plus DINGERZZZ. Actually Greinke’s rookie year wasn’t terrible either.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
But also, about 35% of those players are DAMN good.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
As in, MVP-caliber.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
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