Jose Reyes Avaiable???
According to this post, Jose Reyes could be had from the Mets. If there is one thing the Giants need to address in the offseason is the SS position. I can only fantasize about the Giants with Jose Reyes at the top of the lineup and gobbling up everything up the middle of the diamond. I don;t know what it would take, but if the cost was Dirty and a couple of prospects, I'd be on board.
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I wouldn’t trade Sanchez for Reyes straight up. Putting aside Reyes’ persistent injury issues, any trade of Sanchez forces us to go out into the SP FA market which is always terribly overpriced and isn’t particularly appealing this year. The drop off from Sanchez is a steep one.
A few SS seem very likely to be traded this winter, including Marco Scuturo and Jason Bartlett. Bartlett’s a particularly interesting one because Tampa’s entire bullpen, literally, just became FA and bullpen arms is one thing I do think we have a surplus in, so there’s a potential matchup there that might not cost us too much.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I wonder if Runzler for Bartlett would be a fair deal
If we could somehow get Upton too, I’d be really excited
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
The free agent starter market is only overpriced if you're dumb and desperate.
If you’re not worried about getting a ‘big name", and you’re willing top take on a little injury risk, there’s always some smart pickups available. It’s definitely a stronger bunch than the list of free agent shortstops.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Exactly.
I wouldn’t go more than seven years $126M for Chris Young. $3.8M for pitching ability and the rest for overtaking the Pads in the all-important Guys Who Attended Ivy League Schools arms race.
by biff pocoroba on Nov 11, 2010 8:35 PM PST up reply actions
Well you've obviously got to be smart about it.
Wellemeyer’s what I like to call a low upside gamble. Anyone who expected something positive out of him just wasn’t paying attention.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Sanchez for Reyes
Is absolutely ridiculous when you consider the drop-off from Sanchez to whoever the Giants would have to sign or the gamble Dan Runzler would be. I think Uribe is a much better option even if they have to overpay, although other SS’s are going to become available.
"I signed up for this job, the day I was born" - Brian Wilson, Ninja
I think Uribe is a much better option even if they have to overpay, although other SS’s are going to become available.
Are you really serious about this statement? Uribe is a better option than Reyes?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
I wish you were the Mets GM and I was the Giants GM. I’d make this deal in an instant. Reyes is only 27 years old and, before he had 2 seasons cut short by injuries, other than Tulowitski & Ramirez, was widely recognized as the best young SS in the NL. Once he is healthy again, he should be right back there again. Uribe has never been, nor will ever be, in Reyes’ class.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
Reyes's age is irrelevant, he's only under contract for one more season.
If he has a good season, he’s a near lock to test the free agent market (if only because his recent injury history will scare him into that that he may never get the opportunity again).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
+1
Not to mention the fact that if he’s so great why are the Mets looking to unload him? I’ll tell you why, besides the injury bug, his reported decline in play (even before this year’s injury), and bad attitude have not engendered a lot of love between him and the Mets baseball people. He’s not somebody I want the Giants relying on in 2011.
Dirty is under team control for 3 more seasons at a very reaonable rate. We could not have made the playoffs or won the NLDS without Dirty this season. We did win it all without an everyday, or highly-performing, SS.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
My bad, Cot’s hasn’t updated their site with the new service times yet. Dirty should be only under team control for 2 more seasons. That doesn’t change my mind at all. Two seasons of Dirty is still much more preferrable to 1 on Reyes.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I’ve always got the sense that Reyes is kind of a headcase. His glove and focus are good when he’s hitting, but as soon as he slumps, he looks and plays like he doesn’t want to be on the field. If someone calls him out on his play he starts pointing fingers. I wouldn’t overpay for him.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Nov 12, 2010 6:36 AM PST up reply actions
Yes
Considering the risks with Reyes’ health, and ability to fill Sanchez’s spot in the rotation, Uribe is a MUCH better choice.
Sanchez had a 3.07 ERA last year and a great K rate. and BAA. Forget what you saw in his last two appearances in the WS, he was a HUGE contributor to this team even making the post season. No way we make it with an average starter in his place, let alone some reincarnation of Wellemeyer.
WAR 2010, 2009
Reyes: 2.8, 0.9
Sanchez: 2.6, 2.1
Uribe: 3.2, 2.8
Reyes gave 3.7 WAR combined in 09-10, Sanchez and Uribe combined for 10.7 over the last two years. Obviously Reyes is greatly effected by playing only 169 games over the past two years, but could you really expect to get much more than that?
IMO you’d have to add an no1/no2 kind of SP to offset the potential defecit. Another approach might be to keep a very strong backup behind Reyes, like Uribe. Then that might make sense, and you might be able to make up the loss of Sanchez with an intellegent FA pickup.
But it just seems a lot less risky to keep Uribe and Sanchez.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
The Mets already have Jonathan Sanchez
He pitches under the name “Oliver Perez” there
at the end of the day it's all about kicking the tires
by duke_diligence on Nov 11, 2010 10:38 AM PST reply actions
nah
Oliver Perez is definitely a poor man’s Jonathan Sanchez
If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour, you're gonna see some serious shit!
-Doc Brown, Zito fan
by jordanovich on Nov 11, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
More like a 3rd World Plague-infested man’s Jonathan Sanchez.
by Uncle Russel on Nov 11, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
Cold war is over
it’s “developing country” now :-P
/PC’d
Honorary parent of Duane Kuiper, beloved broadcaster and power hitting coach for the Giants.
by Giant Voodoo on Nov 11, 2010 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
Wow, the wrong is strong in this one.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 11, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
You don’t think they’d be reluctant to take on Sanchez as the main centerpiece of a trade because o…
Oh, nevermind. New GM. You’re right.
at the end of the day it's all about kicking the tires
by duke_diligence on Nov 11, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
Jonathan Sanchez is closer to Johan Santana than Oliver Perez is to Jonathan Sanchez.
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
you guys are crazy
Sanchez for Reyes is a trade would make like RIGHT NOW if it were on the table. I like Sanchez and I like his upside, but Reyes is a 27 year old stud who has been one of the best shortstops in the game in recent years. Yes, he’s struggled with injuries and that’s a risk, but you’ve got to take risks if you hope to land a superstar, and Reyes could be exactly that.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2010 11:32 AM PST reply actions
Cliff Lee!
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
Adopted parent of good old Wendell, he tries so hard. You'll get a hit someday son!
by theghostofjasonellison on Nov 11, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Wellemeyer is a FA!
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Rotation gets weaker
Lineup gets stronger… But really what we’re talking about is still having one of the top three young starters in the game, then Zito at four and we find a fifth starter somewhere. Maybe that’s Runzler, maybe it’s a FA. All I know is for a player like Reyes, I would take the risk of the rotation getting worse to add a guy who could be one of the very best shortstops in the NL. Tulowitzki and Hanley are definitely better, but I’m struggling to think of another guy in the NL who I would want more…
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
Yup.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Nov 11, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
A few years ago certainly. Now maybe.
Saying we’d have to fill a rotation slot with a FA doesn’t scare me much because right now we have to fill the SS hole, and there’s fewer options for SS.
It’s a fair trade, but the financial side makes it lopsided, I think. Reyes is due $11M. Mets would have to cover the difference in money for me to be interested.
by Monkeyking42 on Nov 11, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
That's kind of compelling
And depends on how much Sanchez gets in arb. But I have a feeling we’re all getting suckered by Shiny New Toy syndrome. We didn’t trade Sanchez for Hart or Dunn, and we shouldn’t trade him for Reyes; control problems or no, pitchers like Dirty don’t grow on trees. Maybe if Runzler is for real as a starter, but until then, stand pat or hold out for something ridiculous.
It's Johnnie Walker inside.
by Lies and Perfidy on Nov 11, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Well, the closer he gets to free agency, the less we can expect to get for him.
by Monkeyking42 on Nov 11, 2010 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
I just feel like these are the kinds of chances you have to take to get an elite starting position player. No team is going to trade a guy who is an elite, risk free starter at the height of his powers. So if you want guys like that you have to either a) develop them yourself; b) pay a ton for them on the free agent market; or c) take a chance on a player with risks. I guess I just feel that Reyes is the kind of player I’d be happy to take a chance on.
As you point out, everyone would’ve wanted him a few years ago. Which is exactly why the Mets never would have even put him up for trade then. It would be a gamble to trade for him now, but most trades are.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2010 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is that the risk vs. reward just isn’t there.
Jose Reyes could be an elite position player, but he’s not the kind of guy who’s going to transform an entire offense on his own. The Giants won the World Series on the strength of their starting pitching; specifically, the idea that all their offense needed to do was scratch a few runs across or pop some random dingers, because all five starters were capable of keeping the game close.
If you trade Sanchez without a credible replacement, then you’re effectively placing 20% of your games in the hands of the bullpen and the offense. Jose Reyes, great defender and capable bat though he might end up being, isn’t enough of a difference-maker. Even if he was guaranteed to meet his upside, I just don’t think there’s enough pitching depth in the organization to pull the trigger.
It's Johnnie Walker inside.
by Lies and Perfidy on Nov 11, 2010 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
I’m well aware the Giants won the World Series on the strength of their starting pitching, thanks for the reminder.
Look at it this way if you like: Sanchez just had his best year and Reyes just had a down year. Isn’t that a perfect sell high, buy low opportunity?
I guess what it comes down to is this. I think we’ve seen the best that Jonathan Sanchez has to offer. I think Reyes played below his talent last year. I would make the trade and hope for the best. There is absolutely a risk involved but it’s one I’d take.
Another factor to consider— as it stands we’d need to sign a shortstop on the FA market. If we made this trade, we’d need to get a pitcher. I much prefer the pitchers who are available to the shortstops. A guy like Kuroda or Penny could be an excellent back of the rotation option.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking about Kuroda myself...
Problem is, he’s likely to command a 3 year deal in the neighborhood of 11 to 12 million per.
You trade Jonny for Reyes, you’re paying Reyes 11 million and roughly the same for Kuroda. That pretty much leaves no room to re-sign Huff, or Uribe as super-sub. Kuroda will most likely be worth that dough, but is Reyes?
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
Harang might be a better option
He’s coming off a down year, wouldn’t cost too much, and there’s no doubt his flyball tendencies would better serve him in AT&T than in Cincy.
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
I honestly don’t believe we’ve seen Sanchez’s peak yet. I feel like he’s progressing. Sure he’s still a bit of a head case but compared to a year ago, or even two years ago this year he’s so much better at handling his emotions. I’m not taking any of his playoff starts as something to really evaluate as I’m convinced that the reason he wasn’t performing as well is because he was tired. The velocity was down and he was way above his previous IP high of 163.1. Including the post season he has 213.1 IP. I may be crazy but I think he may be a year or two away from being elite. As long as he continues the trend he will get better.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
I think the Giants will offer him an extension like they’ve done for all of their pitchers. I honestly think if he was going to be traded he would have been already. I don’t see the Giants trading him because there really isn’t anyone in the minors that wouldn’t be a significant drop off.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
You’ve forgotten about Zack Wheeler? He could very easily be ready for the SF rotation to begin the 2013 season, when he’ll be less than 60 days from turning 23. He had similar unhittable stuff and stats to what Dirty was slinging in Augusta when he was more than 2 years older than Wheeler was this year.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I didn't forget Wheeler
I’m saying that until Wheeler is ready there is a significant drop off in talent that would be ready to immediately take his spot in the rotation. We don’t even have Hacker anymore who could be a 5th starter. If Wheeler was ready by 2013 and we traded Sanchez this year who would replace him in the rotation now?
Also RE the extension He isn’t going to be making money like Matt Cain. He’ll get much less than Tim. I see him getting a 3 year deal maybe to buy out the rest of his arbitration and a year of FA. After that we’ll see.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Jose Reyes was not an elite player in 2010. He wasn’t an elite player in 2009. He’s never been a particularly exceptional fielding SS and the last two years he’s been a downright terrible one (with a -5 UZR in 2010). He’s a speed guy whose suffered a series of injuries to his legs. It’s really a dicey package. Frankly I’d trade for Beltran before I traded for Reyes.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
?
06: 5.3
07:11.7
08:+1.8
He was pretty good picking it before injury
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 3:14 PM PST up reply actions
Even if one year UZR figures meant much, -5 doesn’t indicate terrible.
by Monkeyking42 on Nov 11, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
I definitely get where you're coming from
But I’m not sold on Sanchez either, and it’s not some small-sample postseason BS. He beat his FIP by nearly a run this season, and it’s not something he’s ever done before. His ratios say that he’s basically the same pitcher he has been since 2007. Sure, he could turn over a new leaf and suddenly command his pitches, but the stats say that he isn’t making any progress in that direction, and he’ll be a free agent soon anyway. If there’s a worthwhile deal available, trade high. And, honestly, I see alot more attractive names on the list of FA starters than on the list of FA shortstops.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Case in point why FIP can be misleading
2008 FIP: 3.85, fWAR 2.8
2010 FIP: 4.00 fWAR 2.6
Stats don’t lie, but….. There’s just no way he was a better starter in 08’ than he was this year.
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
Why? The big difference between that season and this one (besides IP) was his BABIP, and we know that’s a highly variable stat largely beyond a pitcher’s control. It’s not like Sanchez is Matt Cain, who has consistantly suppressed BABIP, there’s no reasoning to think this was anything but a fluke.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
For one, innings
On the 2nd hand, his balls in play in 08’ had a line drive % of 21.4, while this year the LD % was 14.8. You don’t think that might have had a little bit to do with his BABIP? I’ve watched every one of his starts since 07’ and he’s harder to square up than he was back then.
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
The LD rate would explain things, if pitchers had reliable control over that, but they generally don’t (and those that do suppress line drive tend to be extreme groundballers, which Sanchez is not). Which is precisely why pitchers have so little control over their BABIP: they have far less influence than the hitter on how hard each ball is hit.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Good point...
But his LD rate has been on the downward trend for 2 straight years now. Whether Sanchez has control over it or not, the fact remains that his stuff induces weak contact these days.
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions
Trading 2 years of JSanchez for just one year of Jose Reyes is dumb.
by BornRaisedAGiant on Nov 11, 2010 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
Reyes would be a type A, right?
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
I don't think so
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
I'm sorry but am I missing something?
Jose Reyes hasn’t been a stud since 2008
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
2008 was also the last year he was healthy
He’s a player who age-wise should still be at his peak. I recognize that there’s a downside there (is he just going to be an injury-prone disappointment for the rest of his career?), but I think there’s a pretty clear upside as well (even in the past two years his offensive numbers have been pretty decent considering his position, and before that he was a very valuable asset).
I dunno, maybe it’s just me. But this seems like the kind of trade where Mets fans would be screaming that Sanchez wasn’t worth Reyes, and Giants fans would be complaining that Reyes wasn’t worth Sanchez. To me, it’s a pretty even deal, which means I could take it or leave it, but given that the FA options at starting pitcher are better than the options at SS, I’d probably take it.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
He is going to play about 60% of the time.
If we could keep Uribe also, I might do it, but I don’t think there’s any way that happens.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
[…] but Reyes is a 27 year old stud […]
I hope you are not a breeder of any carbon-based life forms.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Nov 11, 2010 10:46 PM PST up reply actions
Reyes
Living in NJ, I’m forced to listen to a lot of Mets games while doing the dishes and so forth (great announcing crew actually, but it’s still hard to listen). You need a hamstring genius on the medical staff if you are going to touch Reyes. Also, each injury seems to have sapped some of his baseball intelligence — my impression is that he made an unusual number of boneheaded running and fielding moves this year. Perhaps he’s been trying too hard. I’m not completely against trading Sanchez, but I’d be very nervous about doing it for Reyes straight up and I certainly wouldn’t throw in any prospects.
I think those mistakes are just a result of being out of the lineup so much.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
I don’t want Brian Sabean making a deal with Sandy Alderson.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
Made one with Jon Daniels
and fared pretty well I think.
by BustaTheRippa on Nov 11, 2010 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
This time we don’t have a top-shelf prospect waiting in the wings at the positions we would trade from.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
If Reyes is available, it means the Mets have doubts he can stay healthy. Not only that, he was a patient of that HGH and steroid doctor Galea. His patients were Reyes, Beltran and Delgado, and none of them have stayed healthy since he was busted. I’d take Reyes only in a deal that took on his salary for middle of the road prospects.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Nov 11, 2010 6:42 PM PST via mobile reply actions
If it’s Sanchez for Reyes at 11m. I think I’d much rather keep Sanchez and try to sign Carl Crawford.
Belted!
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 12, 2010 1:28 AM PST reply actions
well 11 mil-Sanchez’s salary is probably not that close to the annual salary Crawford will command.
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
I think the Mets want to unload Reyes because he’s just too damn risky. They don’t want to give him a huge long term deal right now because he can’t stay healthy, yet they know if they let him play it out and he has a big year, they’re going to lose him or have to pay him a fortune. Why should the Giants give up something substantial to put this risk upon themselves?
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
How about
Sanchez and Rowand (and throw in someone to make it more worthwhile for the Mets — perhaps a bullpen arm like Waldis Juaquin or Santiago Casilla) for Reyes and Perez or Maine?
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
No on Perez
Sanchez is way better than him. And they wouldn’t trade Scott because of the contract. The only way he gets traded is for another bad contract..
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Of course Sanchez is way better than Perez… because Reyes is way better than Rowand. That’s how trades work – you have to give something good up to get something good and you have to take something bad to get rid of something bad. The money in this scenario is almost even, except for Rowand’s guaranteed 2012 at $12M. But, then again, the Mets would also get Sanchez’s third arbitration year in 2012.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
Reyes would be way better
If he could possibly stay healthy which I doubt he’ll play a full season. I don’t care about trading Rowand. So here is what you want: You want to trade Jonathan who is a legit #4, probably #3 on another team and Rowand for Perez who is a downgrade in the rotation and Reyes who can’t stay healthy and who may possibly be good. Yeah a guy who has played 169 games in the last two years who has a -5 UZR. His Bill James projection doesn’t even have him playing a full year so how exactly would it be worth it?
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Well, if you don’t think he can stay healthy, of course you don’t make the trade. If you think he can, you’re trading an inconsistent starter from a position of great strength to acquire a young SS (a position that is a complete black hole in our organization) with serious offensive potential.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
Please...
stop trading Sanchez. That is all.
Playoff baseball is fun. We should do this more often.
by bgunn on Nov 12, 2010 2:31 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I like this comment.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
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