Giants vs. Braves - predicting the pitching rotations. With poll!!!
Whew! Glad that's out of the way. I must say that it was brilliant strategy by Bochy (once again) to throw the first 2 games of the Pads series and force the Braves to pitch their 2 best starters, Tommy Hanson and Tim Hudson, on Saturday and Sunday, respectively - not to mention forcing Cox to overwork his bullpen in all 3 of the Phillies games. The Braves entire pitching staff is limping now, while the Giants (besides Zito) are well-rested and on a roll.
I thought it would be fun to play manager and map out the starting rotations for the upcoming best-of-5 series. The Giants play at home on Thursday and Friday night (local start time is 6:37 for both games), then fly to GA for 2 games on Sunday and Monday (if necessary), and finally return home for the 5th game at AT&T on Wednesday (if necessary). There are no start times on the final 3 games, but I've got to believe that Sunday will be an early afternoon game because game 4 of the Yankees/Twins series and the Rays/Rangers series will be played on Sunday if necessary, not to mention game 3 of the Phillies/Reds series. Needless to say, those 3 series will be viewed as more compelling than the Giants/Braves by the TV powers that be. Here's the link to the entire playoff schedule:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5634025
The Braves starting rotation consists of Hudson, Derek Lowe, Hanson, Jair Jurrjens, and rookie Mike Minor. Rookie Brandon Beachy did start 3 games down the stretch for them, but he's not eligible for the playoffs unless the Braves pull an "injury exemption" with one of their other pitchers. Kenshin Kawakami did start 16 games for them, with poor results, but he hasn't pitched at all since Sept. 9th so I don't think he's an option. Also, Jurrjens has a bum knee that has kept him out since Sept. 14th, but he has been doing bullpen sessions for about a week now and was rumored to be available in a pinch for the final 3 regular games against the Phillies. Assuming that Bochy doesn't get whacky and start Sanchez in the first game, every Giants starter will be working on more than their normal 4 days rest, with Lincecum getting 7 days and MadBum at least 8 days (if he starts at all). Since Hudson pitched today, he won't be available to go in game #1 (unless Cox goes nuts and starts him on 3 days rest). For game 1 Hanson will be available on 4 days rest, Derek Lowe on 7 days rest, Minor on 15 days rest (although he did throw 30 pitches in relief on Saturday - and was hit hard), and Jurrjens on a million days rest.
If I were the manager, I'd go with the following rotation:
Game 1: Timmeh (7 days rest) ................. Game 2: Cainer (6 days rest)
Game 3: Dirty (6 days rest) ....................... Game 4: MadBum (10 days rest)
Game 5: Timmeh (5 days rest)
The only controversial thing here is choosing MadBum over Zito, but I think it's pretty obvious that he's the better pitcher by more than a little bit right now. MadBum was absolutely money down the stretch (allowing only 0, 1, 2, 0, and 1 runs in his 5 Sept. starts - while posting a K/BB of 32/4 in 32 innings). Since the end of August his velocity is back close to what it was in 2008 and the first part of 2009, allowing his K/9 rate to jump to over 9.4 in his last 6 starts. As for nerves, I trust MadBum's more than Zito's at this point of the season. MadBum seems to thrive on the pressure and spotlight, and he has a minor league history of coming up big in the playoffs - plus he doesn't walk hitters. IMO, Zito will be much looser and more effective coming out of the pen in long relief in case one of our starters gets in early trouble.
Finally, I'm guessing that Bobby Cox will counter with the following starting rotation:
Game 1: Hanson (4 days rest) ................. Game 2: Hudson (4 days rest)
Game 3: Lowe (10 days rest) .................... Game 4: Jurrjens (N/M)
Game 5: Hudson (4 days rest)
If Cox channels Bochy, then he'll flip Lowe and Hanson, but I doubt it. Hanson was, by far, his best pitcher in Sept., while Hudson and Lowe came limping home down the stretch. Cox might go with Minor instead of Jurrjens in game 4, but he obviously lost confidence in Minor after he got rocked in consecutive starts in early-, to mid-September. If Jurrjens is given the green light to go medically, I've got to believe that Cox puts the ball in his hand for the crucial game 4. If Hanson pitches lights out in game 1 then Cox will probably start him in game 5, but if not, I think Cox will go with his proven veteran Hudson with all his marbles on the line.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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JUST. PLEASE. NO.
Proud parent of Bengie Molina: Buster who?
by The Enchanter on Oct 3, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
MadBum for sure. I wouldn’t even have Zito on my post season roster, although I know they will.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Oct 3, 2010 7:11 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I think Zito has value as a long reliever / situational lefty.
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
+1
We’ll need somebody in the pen that can go 3+ innings in case of a meltdown by one of the starters. You don’t want to ruin 1 – 2 relievers in that situation. Plus, as you stated, Zito can be a Loogy in the later innings if Accardo and Lopez aren’t available.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
LOL
Yeah, where did that one come from? Obviously I meant Affeldt – although I wouldn’t mind slipping one of the Blue Jays’ great relievers on our roster when nobody was looking.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Jose Guillen, Jose Bautista-what's the difference?
Buster Posey>
"Screw it, Redbull time"-Brian Wilson
'Bout 35 homers and a serious beard
/Win the inning
//Renteria - Still not a VD but I crush a lot
///Willism is Realism
by Scooter Ellis on Oct 3, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Even Urban admitted yesterday that Zito is not a good candidate for relief work
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Interesting. What was the reasoning? Just that he’s unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the role?
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
My guess would be that Zito takes three innings to get loose.
Proud parent of Bengie Molina: Buster who?
by The Enchanter on Oct 3, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
/throws 88 mph fastball
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
For the record, I thought about flipping Cain and Sanchez in the 2nd and 3rd games, because Sanchez has been so hot this month and it would be his normal 4 day rest start. However, I checked the splits and Dirty pitches noticeably better on the road this year, and Cain pitches noticeably better at home.
Neither of them were good against Atlanta this year. Cain pitched only 5 innings in Atlanta (giving up 3 runs) in the 1 game he hurled against the Braves this year back in August (when the entire rotation seemingly stunk), while Dirty gave up 4 runs (and 2 HRs) in 4 innings at Turner Field in August, and 3 runs in 4.1 innings at AT&T back in May.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
OT
So, the Giants finished with the 5th best record in all of baseball – and the 4th best run differential (114). Who would have guessed that back in August?
OT #2 – the Pirates finished with only 57 wins and a run differential of -279. That’s comparable to a first year expansion team. As a reward for playing like a bunch of minor-leauers, the Pirates will have the honor of drafting Anthony Rendon, 3B out of Rice University, next June. The Giants will get the #29 pick in the first round – time to get bold and grab a hard-to-sign, high-upside high school kid this time around. It’s never too early to dream.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Christian Lopes!
Buster Posey>
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
a couple of things
derek lowe’s stats in september:
5 GS
30.2 IP
29 K
3 BB
1.17 ERA
i wouldn’t really call that “limping home down the stretch”.
also, there’s absolutely no way the braves pitch minor. he’s thrown 156 innings in his first full season above A ball, and he has no gas left in the tank. that’s why he’s been so ineffective lately. if jurrjens can’t go, it’ll be beachy.
by Daniel McCracken on Oct 3, 2010 10:01 PM PDT reply actions
How do they get Beachy on the roster? From what I’ve read, Jurrjens is healthy enough to pitch, so I doubt that designating him as “injured” would work.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
my guess
he could take the place of eric o’flaherty or takashi saito. both are relievers, both have uncertain health statuses.
by Daniel McCracken on Oct 4, 2010 5:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Good catch on the Lowe numbers. I misread the runs allowed column when I was looking at his stats and thought that he had given up 9 runs over a 2 starts during the middle of Sept.
Now I’m thinking that Lowe will get the start in game 1 over Hanson. I’d love that, because I think Hanson is a better pitcher than Lowe, and the Giants are very familiar with Lowe. Not to mention that Lowe will be pitching on a long rest, whch is often a bad thing for a sinkerball pitcher.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
This
Definitely this, but is that long rest better or worse if he pitches in game 2? The Braves have been other-worldly at home this year, but have been pretty bad on the road, IMO the Giants have to win game 1 and probably need to win the first 2. If they drop game 1, it could be rough sailing for them to come back and would mean they would have to win 1-2 games in Atlanta.
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park." - A. Huff
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Oct 4, 2010 5:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I get your point, but I don’t see that the Giants losing 1 of the first 2 games at home as being terminally fatal. That’s because the Braves have no good options for game 4 on Monday in Atlanta. They’ll either have to bring back Derek Lowe on short rest (3 days), or tap an injured and rusty Jurrjens who won’t have pitched in about 3 weeks, or pick 1 of the 2 rookies – Mike Minor or Brandon Beachy. I think the Giants (with MadBum taking the mound) have to be favored in all of those scenarios. The only way we wouldn’t be favored is if Bochy goes brain-dead and starts Zito.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think it's partly psychological
If they drop game 1, it’s tough to come back from and maybe I’m a pessimist, but I’m just assuming that Bork will go with Zito in game 4 so if it doesn’t happen I’ll be pleasantly surprised. However, if it is Zito, flyball pitcher in Atlanta doesn’t help me to sleep at night.
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park." - A. Huff
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Oct 4, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed. If the Giants are down 2 games to the Braves before game 4 and Zito takes the mound, then I think we’d need a miracle to win that game. However, if it’s MadBum against Jurrjens, Minor or Beachy then I like our odds. The Giants will have the pressure of a lose-and-you’re-out game, but the pressure will also be on the Braves to not have the series go back to a game 5 in SF with Lincecum taking the mound.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
First 3 set?
ESPN is reporting that the first 3 games are set for:
Game 1: Timmeh vs. Lowe
Game 2: Cain vs. Hanson
Game 3: Dirty vs. Hudson
I’m surprised that Cox dropped Hudson, his #1 starter for the whole season, all the way down to game 3, and is pinning a possible game 5 on Derek Lowe’s arm (or Hanson’s on short rest). I guess that Cox is putting a lot of credence to what they did in the month of September. I’m not sure that’s a smart thing. If the Giants took the same view they would have buried Timmeh after his putrid August. I would much rather face Lowe than Hudson or Hanson.
I’m assuming that one of Jurrjens and Minor won’t be on the roster – most likely Minor.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
numberzzz
tim hudson away:
FIP: 4.79
xFIP: 4.27
derek lowe away:
FIP: 4.50
xFIP: 4.04
lowe’s FIP/xFIPs are approximately the same as hudson’s in general, actually.
by Daniel McCracken on Oct 4, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Isn’t Jair injured?
Overplayed memes:
EASTCOAST BIAS
2002 WS CANCELED
Blue Jays want all our player that we don't utilize correctly
He’s been out with a bum knee since the middle of Sept., but he was available to pitch against the Phillies this past weekend. He did throw a couple of bullpen sessions the last week of September. They cleared his knee for the actual pitching portion of the game, but were worried about how he’d handle having to hit and run the bases.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
There is also discussion on a parallel thread here.
I submit that Cain is better suited to start the first game because Lincecum and Sanchez have done much better on 5 days’ rest than on 4, whereas Cain’s results have been virtually identical. Projecting differences from 5/4 days’ rest to 4/3 days’ may not be valid, but the 5/4 data is all we have to work with, and it is quite suggestive. On a 3-man rotation, they all have to pitch once no matter what, but only the first man needs to be available on short rest if it goes to 5 games, so why not go with the man who seems least affected by rest?
Would it make sense to use 4 men instead, with the #1 man repeating in a game 5 if needed? That comes down to asking who seems more likely to win a game 4: your #4 starter, or Matt Cain on one day less rest than usual. Considering that, despite his ERA results, Bumgarner has pitched about as well as Zito, I’d definitely vote for Cain on slightly short rest.
The questions of what to do with Zito, Bumgarner, and the pen are another matter, but the post title question is “pitching rotations”, and Cain-Lincecum-Sanchez seems the clear answer.
Sabean delenda est!
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Nice summary, but I’d keep a 4 man rotation, as long as Zito wasn’t the 4th man. I’d also keep Timmeh as the game 1 starter and Cain in game 2. That way Timmeh would be available to start game 4 if our backs were against the wall (with MadBum in reserve) and Cain would be available for game 5 on normal rest. That would also let us have Timmeh start game 5 on 5 days rest if we enter game 4 in Atlanta with a 2-1 lead and Atlanta wins it to tie it up at 2-all.
Considering that, despite his ERA results, Bumgarner has pitched about as well as Zito, I’d definitely vote for Cain on slightly short rest.
I disagree with this. Since the end of August, when MadBum’s FB velocity took a significant and sustained jump (he’s averaging 92 mph in his last 6 starts), MadBum has been a much better pitcher than Zito. He’s also been a much better pitcher than he was when he first came up from Fresno in July and August. HIs K/9 jumped all the way up past 9.0, while his WHIP, FIP and ERA+ all showed significant improvement. Not to mention that MadBum doesn’t beat himself by putting guys on base via the BB at the alarming rate that Zito does.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Half and half.
OPS splits:
June: .711 (1 G)
July: .656 (6 G)
August: .945 (6 G)
Sept/Oct: .590 (5 G)
OK, since the end of August, in a whole 5 games, he has been better than his season average (.732); but in August, he was substantially worse; and in July he was in between. I don’t see a clear reason to cherry-pick his best month as representative of his abilities. The good things that shot up in September are the same bad things that crashed down in August. It’s like saying “His batting average in plate appearances when he gets a hit is 1.000!” He is successful when he is successful!
He may well be somewhat better now than earlier; I don’t say it isn’t so, only that it’s not clear that it’s so. Either way, however, I’d rather have Cain on one day less rest than usual—which appears to be no big deal for him—than Bumgarner. Maybe in 2011, no; but in 2010, yes.
Sabean delenda est!
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I understand your point, and it would certainly be correct if there was no other data to explain MadBum’s excellent Sept. numbers. It would most likely just be cherry-picking the best SSS of a larger set of data. However, in this case we know that MadBum did have a significant and sustained increase in his FB velocity starting in September. This just doesn’t happen to a young kid that is pitching the most innings that he’s ever pitched in any prior season, and that is pitching every 5th day for the first time in his life. That tells me that he finally has been able to fully correct the mechanical flaw that saw his velo plummet by at least 3 MPH at the end of the 2009 season and lingered through the beginning of the 2010 season. The odds that his velo may drop back down again this season are very slim, IMO, becuase he had the big jump at the end of his season when he normally should be experiencing a noticeable decline.
Let’s check the numbers for MadBum’s Sept. starts (hat tip to nyy601 on the minorLeagueBall website):
9/23 - Avg 4 seam velocity 91.5, Max 93.2… Avg 2 seam velocity 91.6, Max 93.2
9/17 - Avg 4 seam velocity 91.9, Max 94.3… Avg 2 seam veloctiy 92, Max 93.9
9/11 - Avg 4 seam velocity 92.7, Max 93.9… Avg 2 seam velocity 92.9, Max 94.9
9/6 – Avg 4 seam velocity 91.9, Max 93.9… Avg 2 seam velocity 92.6, Max 94.3
As you can see, his average veloctiy was at least 91.5, with a high of 92.9 and an average of 92.1 MPH. According to my quick-and-dirty analysis, he was averaging about 90.3 MPH prior to September. As we know from his minor league heydays in 2008 and the first part of 2009, when he can sit at 92 with his FB he becomes an elite strikeout pitcher. His stats bear that out. His K/9 in the starts after his velocity jump leaped to 9.5 (up from 6.2 in his prior 12 starts).
By comparison, let’s look at the average FB velocity of other elite LHPs from the 2010 season:
Price 95.3
CC 93.6
Lester 93.5
Anderson 92.9
Kershaw 92.5
Hamels 91.7
Lee 91.1
Dirty Sanchez 90.6
Jamie Garcia 90
Santana 89.6
Pettitte 89
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
And correspondingly . . .
. . . I understand your point.
But what we don’t know is if the increase is permanent or just something that happened and might “un-happen” at any time. Why did it drop off in the first place? (As it is reported to have done.) If we don’t definitely know that, it’s still chancey.
And even if we take, as a sort of best case, the ratio of his September OPS to his season OPS and apply that to his season quality of pitching, we get the rough equivalent of a 3.25 ERA. Cain, over the season, is perhaps a 3.05 quality, so even giving Bumgarner the best of it, Cain looks better. There might be some discount on Cain if he’s going on only three days’ rest (though he seems the least likely to be so affected), but there’s got to be a bit on Bumgarner, too, owing to season length.
I wouldn’t scream and throw things if they used a 4-man with Bumgarner as #4, but I still think—especially with the extra roster flexibility—I’d rather see Cain, Lincecum, JSanchez.
Sabean delenda est!
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I think there is a case to be made for your preferred rotation, and you’ve certainly laid it out well. I wouldn’t go that route, but I also wouldn’t be greatly disappointed if Bochy had decided that was how he would go. However, I’m sure that it was never seriously considered by due to the fact that in Bochy’s mind Lincecum is his “ace” and he obviously wants to have the flexiblility to bring back Timmy for game 4 if it’s a sudden-death game.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Sad to say . . .
. . . you are probably correct.
Lincecum has a season ERA of 3.43, and has actually pitched a hair worse, and does better on longer rest than on shorter (5 days vs. 4 days); Cain has a season ERA of 3.14 and has actually pitched a hair better than that, and has shown that he pitches exactly as well on shorter rest as on longer rest (again, 5/4 pattern). So who should start the critical game on short rest? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.
(Yes, I realize that Lincecum’s season numbers include a one-month rough patch, not a smooth pattern. But even so, my case is not based on any material difference between Lincecum’s and Cain’s basic pitching ability—so long as we don’t assume that Lincecum is substantially better than Cain—but on their probable reactions to shorter rest.)
Sabean delenda est!
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

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