Brain Sabean: One of the Frightful Five
On a day when we ponder the possibility of John Miller being honored for greatness, leave it to Fangraphs to award BS for his complete ineptitude.
(yes, this isn't a scientific analysis or poll...)
2 months ago
Uribe nee Gonzalez
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Then there’s Colletti’s mentor, Brian Sabean… That I’m so impressed that he’s restrained himself from resigning Bengie Molina sort of says it all.
Yes, it really does.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 4, 2010 3:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it...
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 4, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
NARF
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 4, 2010 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FJORD
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jan 4, 2010 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you pondering what I’m pondering?
"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
by ResDog on Jan 5, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For better or worse
I’ve been calling him “Brain” for a little while now because I like the immature wordplay/irony of it. Also, he’s a fucktard. Now if somebody would just draw a cartoon of a brain kicking a tire…
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 4, 2010 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All that article did was make me jealous of Tampa Bay, Boston, Seattle, and Oakland.
I want a new, shiny GM! One that is forward thinking, not making shortsighted moves. You know, the kind of GM that wouldn’t have traded our #2 and #3 prospects for, well, mediocre players. Granted, Freddy Sanchez is not that bad of a player, but, in my mind, if you really want Uggla, why not wait till the offseason?
by Squire_Boone on Jan 4, 2010 5:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
he did wait until the offseason.
To re-sign Sanchez
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 4, 2010 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
plus he made that killer trade to get Garko last year.
by Into the Void on Jan 4, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking as an unabashed member of the Fire Sabean Club, It’s nice to see that others are recognizing what a few of us here have understood for at least 5 years. Brian’s time has passed. Moreover, the egregious mistakes he has made are, quite simply, fireable offenses when translated into your or my workplace environments.
In NASA terms, he has screwed the pooch. Google that one, kids.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
by Lyle on Jan 4, 2010 5:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
BRAAAAAIIINNNSSS /Maria Shriver
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 4, 2010 5:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I Don"t Buy At All That Beane Is A Top 5 GM - Way Overrated
I am not sure I even see him as top 10. Likewise I also do not buy that Sabean is a bottom 5 and for that matter bottom 10. I would put them both right in the middle of the middle 10.
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2010 7:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Over a concurrent period (1998-2009), Beane’s won 1051 games to Sabean’s 1030. Similar record, but significantly less payroll. We can argue wether Beane’s a top 5 or Sabean a bottom 5, but they’re not even close to each other.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 4, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Payroll Vs Wins does Matter but It Is
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2010 7:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not All That Matters
I feel very comfortable rating them as pretty damn even and since Bonds I would give the edge to Sabean not Beane.
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2010 7:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
a nice nucleus, the other side of the bay
by sfoakbay on Jan 4, 2010 7:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A Better Nucleus, This Side Of The Bay
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
IAWTC
"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
by ResDog on Jan 5, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why? I’m not seeing either of those at all. Sabean is clearly one of the worst in the business and Beane is certainly top 10 at the least.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 4, 2010 8:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The A’s are going in a strange direction, it appears.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 4, 2010 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For sure (Coco Crisp), but Beane still has a helluva track record.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 4, 2010 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What are your specific reasons?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
by baetown415 on Jan 4, 2010 10:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here Are Three
1) Giants have an elite MLB pitching staff and the A’s don’t.
2) Giants currently have on the MLB roster two homegrown superstars (Franchise and Panda) and A’s don’t.
3) Giants have another two potential homegrown superstars (Posey and Bumgardner) waiting in the wings that are likely better then anyone the A’s have waiting in the wings and may just burst onto the scene in 2010.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 12:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Draft Slots (Giants, A's)
09: 6, 13
08: 5, 12 There’s your Posey
07: 10, 26 There’s your MadBum
06: 10, None There’s your Lincecum
So there’s the first obvious problem with the logic: it’s much more difficult for the A’s to draft “homegrown superstars” in those years because their teams didn’t suck.
The pitching staff and 4 “homegrown superstars” are the strongest points in favor of Sabean, and the draft slot comparison shows they are overstated when used in a direct comparison with the A’s development of the farm. Don’t get me wrong; they were great picks, but you need the draft slot to even have a chance.
When that lone bit of Sabean-supporting evidence has been put into appropriate context, his bottom-5-ness and Beane’s top-10-ness are obvious.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 12:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Horseshit That They Are Obvious
Beane road the Big Three Train for a long time just like Sabean road the Bonds Train for a long time. Sabean is much further along in his recovery from the end of the Bonds Train then Beane is from the end of the Big Three Train. In fact one can argue that Sabean is now starting his own Big Three Train and Beane is just now hitting the bottom Sabean hit earlier. I expect a couple more losing years for the A’s in their bottom to match the 4 the Giants went thru before they recover. I see absolutely nothing in results or methods to justify this cult like belief that Beane is clearly superior.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 2:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re going to go ahead and judge Sabean and Beane based on this year and 2 years into the future that haven’t even occurred, you’re going to ignore all of their past accomplishments.
Sabean has half of a decade of suckitude to draw from (trades, signings, 5 straight losing seasons) and you are not even acknowledging that. Beane has nearly a decade of accomplishments (winning seasons, 100-win seasons with rock-bottom payroll!) that rendered people incredulous at the time.
Also, really?
Beane road the Big Three Train for a long time just like Sabean road the Bonds Train for a long time.
This is complete bullshit. Beane was in his fourth year as an assistant GM (he started in 1994) when Alderson drafted Hudson, Beane was the GM (first year) who drafted Mulder, and he was a second-year GM when he drafted Zito.
Proof (look at the spreadsheet entitled draft picks)
From Brendan Bianowicz’s GM Histories
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A Mistake But Correcting It Supports My Arguement Rather Then Opposing It
The A’s are three years into matching the Giants 4 year losing streak not just two. The A’s will finish in last place in the AL West and below .500 again this year and could continue to do this for a 5th year next year. Even assuming the A’s do turn things around by next year they will have taken then same amount of time to turn things around that the Giants did.
In addition their winning streaks were the same in length at 8 seasons with the Giants running from 1997 thru 2004 and the A’s from 1999 thru 2006.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, agree, agree, agree. In all of this, the teams are about equal.
OK, now we factor in the Bonds Inheritance (54 WAR starting 2002) and the large disparity in payroll and Beane blows Sabean out of the water.
QED
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 7:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beane Inherited Plenty Himself From Sandy Alderson
Giambi, Tejada, and Chavez just to name a few. It is just flat out bias to claim the Beane blows Sabean out of the water.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 7:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ANTI-SABEAN BIAS
You have nothing to say about the huge payroll disparity. I think we’re done here.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 8:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Have Adressed It
It does matter but not nearly as much as you claim. If it did the Yankees would never lose.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 9:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees haven’t had a losing season in 17 years.
I was promised lasagna.
by Cookyman on Jan 7, 2010 4:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and to compound the argument, I’ll throw this in…
Over a concurrent period (1998-2009), Beane’s won 1051 games to Sabean’s 1030. Similar record, but significantly less payroll. We can argue wether Beane’s a top 5 or Sabean a bottom 5, but they’re not even close to each other.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 4, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which was a reply to your assertion about the GMs that you blew off without using supporting evidence. Most likely, the only support you have are those three bullet points you wrote above, which I have put in proper context by noting the draft slots.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Relevent, But Only Marginally So.
The Giants were indeed on a different path to their sucess in the Bonds years (surround Barry with veteran players aquired thru free agency or trade) then the A’s in the Big 3 years (develop in house and trade players as they become expensive for more prosects or just let them go in free agency for draft picks). But both approaches had the same sucess and both eventually crapped out.
Today the Giants and A’s seem to have the exact same approach with the Giants 2 years ahead of the A’s and having already returned to winning.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants and A's have similar approaches, it's true.
But only because the Giants blew their money advantage by signed Zito and Rowand. However, even though they are expensive enough to leave the Giants with an Oakland-sized remaining budget, they’re still productive enough to give the Giants a 3-4 win head start on their trans-bay rivals.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh, draft location has little to do with it. Cain was picked 25th, Dirty in the 27th round.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Jan 5, 2010 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And the A’s took Nick Swisher (good pick) and Joe Blanton before the Giants took Cain.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Jan 5, 2010 8:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was a good draft year.
Year Rnd OvPck RdPck Tm
2002 1 2 2 Rays B.J. Upton
2002 1 6 6 Royals Zack Greinke
2002 1 7 7 Brewers Prince Fielder
2002 1 9 9 Rockies Jeff Francis
2002 1 11 11 Marlins Jeremy Hermida
2002 1 12 12 Angels Joe Saunders
2002 1 15 15 Mets Scott Kazmir
2002 1 16 16 Athletics via RedSox *Nick Swisher
2002 1 17 17 Phillies Cole Hamels
2002 1 18 18 WhiteSox Royce Ring
2002 1 19 19 Dodgers James Loney
2002 1 20 20 Twins Denard Span
2002 1 22 22 Indians Jeremy Guthrie
2002 1 23 23 Braves Jeff Francoeur
2002 1 24 24 Athletics via Yankees *Joe Blanton
2002 1 25 25 Giants Matt Cain
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Jan 5, 2010 8:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I never put it together that Cain and Fielder were taken in the same draft, in the same round. I feel like their lives are an episode of LOST.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jan 5, 2010 8:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Draft location has little to do with the players you get to draft?
I was promised lasagna.
by Cookyman on Jan 5, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You have to have a good FO. The difference between 6 and 13 is probably less than you think.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Jan 5, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just b/c you pick doesn’t mean you will pick right.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Jan 5, 2010 9:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh, draft location has little to do with it.
…
Just b/c you pick doesn’t mean you will pick right.
The idea is that 3 of the 4 “superstar farm players” that GRM cites as Sabean’s great achievements weren’t available to Beane (or to most teams at all) in those drafts, purely because of high draft slot. And as I noted before,
Don’t get me wrong; they were great picks, but you need the draft slot to even have a chance.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well obviously. And just because you have a big payroll that doesn’t mean you’ll use it right. Does having a high payroll not help winning?
I was promised lasagna.
by Cookyman on Jan 5, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Based on what? All the evidence I’ve seen suggests that the difference between top 5-6 and top 15 is pretty big. As is the difference between picking 10th and 26th. And the difference between picking 10th and not picking and 1st round at all…
I was promised lasagna.
by Cookyman on Jan 5, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, of course you need a good FO, you always need a good FO, but if for 5 years one team always picks in the top 10, and the other constantly picks somewhere between 12 and the second round, the first is a lot more likely to get good players.
I was promised lasagna.
by Cookyman on Jan 5, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I LOL'd in moneyball
when the A’s were excited to draft John McCurdy when the Giants drafted some high school pitcher. That made me happy.
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
by Gobroks on Jan 5, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You know they also drafted Nick Swisher and Joe Blanton before Cain?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Jan 5, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But it was how excited Beane &DePo were to get McCurdy
instead of Cain that made me LOL
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
by Gobroks on Jan 5, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked that part too. Lewis doesn’t even bother to mention Cain’s name. Doesn’t mention Cole Hamels either, for that matter.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It was published well before either reached the major leagues.
"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
by ResDog on Jan 5, 2010 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know, it’s just funny which players he ends up mentioning in the scene during draft and which are omitted (in retrospect obviously).
Mentioned: Bryan Bullington, “Melvin” Upton, Chris Gruler, Adam Loewen, Clinton Everts, Zack Grienke, Prince Fielder, Scott Kazmir, Nick Swicher, Jeff Francis, Jeremy Guthrie, Bobby Brownlie, Royce Ring, Joe Blanton, Khalil Greene, John McCurdy, Denard Span…
Omitted: Scott Moore, Jeremy Hermida, Drew Meyer, Joe Saunders, Cole Hamels, James Loney, Jeff Francoeur, Matt Cain…
Damn, that’s a good draft crop.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beane
Eric Byrnes 8th round
Ryan Ludwick 2nd round
Rich Harden 17th round
Joe Blanton 24th overall
Andre Ethier 2nd round
You can find players like that from Beane, too, and in spades.
The point is that draft location features hugely in getting players like Posey, Wheeler, Lincecum, and Bumgarner.
And another point on top of that is that draft position reflects how bad the Giants teams were the year before.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Jan 5, 2010 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Brain has become truly awful. I see what he is trying to do with most of the moves he makes, and even stand up for him from time to time. But I really think he has just lost whatever GM chops he had, and allowed himself to get lazy and too comfortable in his position. I had hoped that his near-firing a couple of years ago would change things, but there are still moves that just don’t make any sense, like e-Rent. I used to blame Colletti as the “contract guy” for things like tucker for 2M, but Brain overpays all the time and appears to be unable to judge a market.
I really hope someone in power in the Giants ownership reads at least a little McC, MLBTR, FG, whatever. The public outcry from fans has been overwhelming for years, and the ridicule from other teams’ fans is constant and far too great to ignore.
just a sambple of carbon-based wastage
by Gaahl on Jan 5, 2010 12:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Your Are Confusing The Blogishere With The Rest Of The World
For the vast majority of paying fans (both Giants and other teams) what you are saying is just not true.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 12:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The blogosphere fans have specific reasons and put alot of effort into it
But I think there’s been a general discontent with Sabean for quite some time, possibly since the non-events of the 2003/4 offseason. Even among casual fans, I haven’t met many who have a positive opinion of him.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2010 2:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If The Majority Of Season Ticket Holders Wanted Sabean's Head The Giants Would Have Given It To Them
Heck even if a significant minority would stop buying without Sabean’s Head the Giants would of chopped it off. Sabean is still the GM because nether of these were the case.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2010 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's true.
Even Detriot Lions fans weren’t able to organize themselves well enough to produce an effective boycott. Sports fans are addicts. it’s takes alot more than dissatisfaction with the GM to force them to vote with their wallet. Hell, I’ve hated Sabean forever, and it’s never directly effected my ticket purchases.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2010 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Byrnes
Really??
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Jan 5, 2010 12:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

























