An early look at fifth starter options...
by Grant on Jan 28, 2010 1:29 PM PST
496 comments
I’m not opposed to Madison Bumgarner being in the rotation at the start of the season, just as I’m not opposed to him starting the season in AAA. If he shows up to camp throwing hard with clean mechanics, he’d give the Giants a better chance to win than any of the in-house alternatives.
If Bumgarner comes to camp and throws 89 MPH, looking like a quality pitcher but not a world-beater, there’s no sense in putting him through the rigors of a full season in the majors. Put him in Fresno, limit his workload, and call him up if he dominates.
Simple…except the Giants aren’t going to know until spring training, at which point any free agent options are likely to be off the market. And this is the perfect offseason to look for back-end starters on one-year deals. Heck, I wish there were a clever all-offense, no-pitching team with money at the beginning of the offseason, just so we could have watched a rotation of Pedro Martinez, Erik Bedard, John Smoltz, Ben Sheets, and Rich Harden. That would’ve been a high-risk, crazy-high-reward gamble for a single season. It would have been a fascinating experiment.
The Randy Johnson gambit from last season might have been a marketing success, but it was on-field bust. That’s a shame, because it was a fantastic idea. Not only was Johnson a marketable player, but his peripheral statistics indicated that he was still likely to be effective if he remained healthy. High-risk, high-reward. The Giants ended up with a leaky sack full of fermented risk for their money.
The Giants say that they’re probably done making moves for the offseason. Okay, fine. But I’ve been surprised by enough Giants-related news to know that the team says a lot of things that they don’t necessarily mean. I’m hoping that they’re at least having internal discussions about any of the following:
- Pedro Martinez
- John Smoltz
- Erik Bedard
Oh, they’ll need to do due diligence on the pitchers’ health, and they’ll need to kick several tires at the end of the day, but if healthy, all three pitchers could be bargains. It’s kind of a false dichotomy when we yap about the Giants needing more hitters – it’s true, but it’s more accurate to say that the Giants need to improve the team. If adding John Smoltz for $5M, say, might give the Giants an extra couple of wins over what they can expect from Bumgarner, Joe Martinez, Kevin Pucetas, or Steve Johnson, it’s an idea worth thinking about. The on-field improvements are the main selling point, but it also helps that Bumgarner can be stretched out in a five-man rotation, held to five or six innings at a time when needed, and eligible for arbitration later than he would have.
If the fragile vet breaks down like Randy Johnson did, Bumgarner is the likely replacement anyways. Nothing lost but money…which is exactly why the Giants probably aren’t going to do this. They’ve spent their money for the offseason. This is the part that I grumble about Bengie Molina, except I think I’ll pick on Juan Uribe this time. Utility infielders for $3M are luxury items, and the Giants aren’t a luxury kind of team. I would have rather seen Pedro Martinez try to stay healthy in a Giants uniform. Not at goofy Ben Sheets prices, mind you, so maybe that's the catch to this whole thing.
I’m not as rabidly anti-Bumgarner-starting-in-the-majors as some of y’all, but if there were ever a season in which a team didn’t have to rush up a prospect to be a fifth starter, this is it. Here’s hoping the Giants weren’t scared away from a good idea just because it didn’t work last year.
0 recs |
496 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Why aren’t we a luxury kind of team?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 1:32 PM PST reply actions
This team is $100MM
worth of polished turds with a few valuable gems stuck to it
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 28, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
So I guess my question then would be:
If Sabean was given twice the payroll to work with would we have more turds, more expensive turds or would we be able to prevail against that mythical opposition elite FAs have to playing here?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
I suppose a mod will now delete my reply, like they did with my Randy Win Fanshot.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
It is Natto's grudge against the time/space continuum
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
CURSE YOU, EINSTEIN
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I read this as
CURSE YOU ECKSTEIN
And I immediately agreed, though I didn’t know how he had come up in conversation.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Albert Einstein
was not a gamer.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Natto LOVES the windows file download time remaining estimator.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
Because you should only get luxuries when you have what you need first. We don’t have what we need.
At least not on offense.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe Sabean needs to kick tires throughout the workday, and not leave all the tire-kicking to the end of the day. He’s obviously tired, hungry, and confused by that point, and that’s how you end up signing Renterias and NotGardos.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jan 28, 2010 1:35 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
But then how would he “FUCK WORK AND DRINK”?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
I have a feeling that at least one of the veterans you mention will still be available come the middle of spring training. Unfortunately, Bedard probably won’t be able to help any team on Opening Day, so I’m crossing my fingers that either Smoltz or Martinez is still available around the beginning of March.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Vote for Pedro
I think Smoltz is done, even with the type of competitor he is. His stuff just doesn’t seem to be there, and his arm is a ticking time bomb. Bedard could be great, but could do nothing, and can’t start the season. Based on last year, I think Pedro is the way to go.
I like MadBum, and am not as down on the low-velocity and K% from last year as some. Even at the major league level, if you change speeds, hit your spots, work the corners and change sight-lines you can be very effective as a two pitch pitcher. The problem is that with only two pitches (that are major league ready) the margin for error greatly diminishes. I actually see MadBum being a slightly better version of Kirk Rueter, a solid 3 or 4 starter, with the frame to develop in to a a good #2. However, he’s no Freak.
Don't give him the game ball Dusty, you'll jinx it...
by The Neuschler on Jan 29, 2010 4:29 AM PST up reply actions
Just calling him a two pitch pitcher seems pretty optimistic compared to all the scouting reports I’ve seen. And it’s pretty hard to be effective if you aren’t striking guys out or inducing a lot of GB’s, even with good control (which Bumgarner has). K% and BB% are probably the two biggest predictors of future success for a prospect, from a statistical standpoint…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 6:44 AM PST up reply actions
If not Pedro then how about Edgar or Tino.
by GiantMalcontent on Jan 28, 2010 1:37 PM PST reply actions
They would be Sabean type of guys. Veterans and Gritty.
Randy Hahn: "I’ve been referred to as a playa…"
All of 'em
Sabean could call it his “three Martinez lunch”
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Jan 28, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I didn’t know GRM was malcontent.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 28, 2010 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
I think the FO was so focused on finding any kind of middling, multi-position player to overpay that they failed to recognize that they could have upgraded their rotation at a relatively cheap price.
Don’t want to pay Sheets 10 million? Fine, Duchscherer was available for 20% of Sheet’s asking price.
I really doubt they are even looking for another starting now (or if they ever were). They really think Bumgarner is the answer in spite of his declining velocity of plummeting K rate. The big “W” is all they care about. My hope is that he doesn’t end up on the Foppert/Williams/Ainsworth scrap heap.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 1:37 PM PST reply actions
Holy crap. Type much?
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
Too Long; Did Read?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Too Long; Dominican Republic
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
To Late: Duchscherer Resigned
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
*Too
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
And if AT&T really has such a pitchers’ park reputation, to the point where we have to overpay for hitters, we should be able to underpay for pitchers.
I was promised lasagna.
Could it be why Penny chose us?
Wherever he went, he was going to get the same dollars, so a “pitcher’s park” is a good place to pad your stats.
I’d bet that was a bigger reason than the chance to face the Dodgers
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
It’s possible, but I mentioned this in another thread – if pitchers really want to pitch in AT&T, and hitters don’t want to hit there, it seems to me pretty clear that we should sign pitchers instead of hitters. We can then trade some pitching for hitting if we need to. Instead, the vast majority of our FA signings the past few years have been hitters.
But when we did sign pitchers – Johnson, Affeldt, Howry, Zito, Benitez – we didn’t seem to underpay at all. If anything it seems the other way around.
So either AT&T’s reputation doesn’t really affect whether or not players want to sign with us, or it does, and Sabean has been handling it really poorly.
I was promised lasagna.
He just wanted to swap Alyssa Milano stories with Zito
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think I remember a quote
where Penny said he chose us over the Marlins because “He wanted to play in front of fans”
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I think Braden Looper should be added to the end of that list, as the 4th choice.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
I like Looper
he’s gotten about as much time on MLBTR as Ryan Garko. Another guy who I wouldn’t hate would be Todd Wellemeyer but Looper is the better pitcher.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
haha
the only negative WAR starting pitcher of 2009! I guess he’s due for a dead cat bounce!
(I am mostly joshing, I didn’t check his history or peripherals or anything)
Well, he’s not that bad, but his K rate has been 5.03 or under since 2005.
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
You know what's strange about the Bumgarner situation?
If the Giants don’t care about minor league stats that much (as seems to be the case), then they must use scouting reports, right?
I know GRM is always talking about the Giants evaluating talent based on their scouting eyes. So, wouldn’t the worrying scouting reports scare the Giants a little bit? Just a tad?
Or maybe they only use scouting eyes when the players are in the majors.
Or maybe they are evaluating prospects with scouting eyes and their scouting eyes are telling them something different than the scouting reports that are getting to us.
Of course, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt considering their success at finding good pitching.
The baseball Satanist
I’m scared that they use the same logic as BA (he still managed to not allow hits without the strikeouts). That really disturbs me. He’s not going to do that in the majors. It just doesn’t happen. And it scares me because then it’s not about the Giants abillity to develop pitchers (which I trust), but rather their understanding of things like peripheral pitching stats (which I really really don’t trust).
I was promised lasagna.
Yeah, this is basically my thing, I trust their judgment in evaluating how Bumgarner can perform, I just don’t trust their ability to properly value his performance. I fear bringing Bumgarner up as a reliever first. What a waste that would be, kind of like bringing Posey up to sit him on the bench in September.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not opposed to Madison Bumgarner being in the rotation at the start of the season
I am, I’m very opposed. Why waste one of his cheap, cost controlled years on a non-playoff team? Furthermore, in terms of long term strategy, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to me to let guys develop a lot in the minors so you can make the 6 team/cost controlled years you have the player as valuable as possible instead of letting them learn on the job and getting worse performance over those 6 years because you brought them up when they were lower on their development curve. I don’t really get why people don’t understand this and make decisions with this in mind, other than the fact that they just don’t plan that far in advance (which is stupid, or the type of move someone concerned with their job in the short term makes, even though it’s bad for the franchise in the long run….so still stupid).
Wouldn’t it be cool if Bumgarner came into Spring Training throwing in the low/mid 90’s, but ended up getting shelled due to BABIP shenanigans and sent to Fresno?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
I’m not opposed to Madison Bumgarner being in the rotation at the start of the season
I’m not opposed to it specifically. I don’t really like it. He’s so young. He’s so undeveloped. He has one pitch. I mean… wait… I’m getting opposed to it specifically now.
Anyway. A team that says Posey isn’t ready but insists that Bumgarner is is a stupid team. A team that wants to delay Posey’s arb clock, but couldn’t give a shit about Bumgarner’s is a stupid team.
This is a stupid team.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
Because YOu Are Being Foolish Concluding Now That They Are Not a Playoff Team
The have a shot and they have to take it. It is more foolish not to take the shot.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
Jesus Christ
Your first comment in this thread and you’re already insulting people.
I was promised lasagna.
Just Stating Facts
The Giants have a shot and it is foolish to think they don’t.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
Here's the thing
Bumgarner (ACCORDING TO MINE EYEZZ and other factors) isn’t ready to pitch a full season. I’d like to see him get stretched out a little in ST, then go down to AAA (or AA, whichever) and pitch regularly until some point during the season. I’m advocating a Smoltz signing because I don’t think the guy’s going to last more than ~120 innings, so if he goes down, then Bumgarner can step in.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
How Is Limiting Him To 120 Innings Stretching Him Out?
He has exceeded this in each of his last two seasons (pitching 141 innings in both). Wouldn’t stretching him out at a reasonable pace be adding about 30 to this which would be pretty much a full season as a MLB 5th starter?
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
the value of Smoltz lies in the fact that if Bumgarner proves himself to be a solid starter by the end of May-ish, Smoltz can convert into a middle reliever and pitch better than Bob Howry.
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
He also hasn't pitched as often as required in an MLB rotation
And if we could hold him down to like 150-160 totals innings pitched without him getting worn out, it would more more ideal.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
No no, it’s an opinion. Well, it’s a fact that they have a chance, but whether that chance is significant is a matter of opinion.
I was promised lasagna.
I Think It Is Pretty Much Fact That It Is Too Significant To Pass On.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions
This doesn’t mean anything.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
To clarify
Your sentence was gibberish.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
Dumb it down for me doc
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
You’ve been shedding too much light Lu (Dumb it down)
You make’em wanna do right Lu (Dumb it down)
They’re getting self-esteem Lu (Dumb it down)
These girls are trying to be queens Lu (Dumb it down)
They’re trying to graduate from school Lu (Dumb it down)
They’re starting to think that smart is cool Lu (Dumb it down)
They’re trying to get up out the hood Lu (Dumb it down)
I’ll tell you what you should do (Dumb it down)
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Pour champagne on a bitch!
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
As the roster is currently constructed right now, I think our chances are very, very small. I do think we should be doing everything we can to contend right now. I fully agree with you there. We blew it this offseason, we didn’t spend the money we had in a way that turns us into a playoff team. I would have gone after Holliday, if we signed him (not guaranteeing we would have), played Posey at C, and looked to trade for a middle infielder – potentially a quality one, and I would have been willing to trade Bumgarner, or Neal, or some package of anyone not named Buster. I also would have had a backup plan for Holliday, though I can’t guarantee it would have been enough. Posey only comes up if we get Holliday. So yeah, I do agree this is “too significant to pass on”. Only we didn’t do enough, and there’s no reason at this point, being the non-playoff team we are (I do acknowledge we still have a chance, just not a big enough one to act on) to ruin long term plans to go after the bad chance we have now. That’s exactly the mentality that leads to stupid moves, since we disagree on the Giants, I’ll use the Astros as the example, when they make moves you’d expect out a contender, but they suck, and they sabotage their future in the process.
I also think Bumgarner is not ready to contribute as a starter in a significant way. The Giants track record clearly shows they know more than I do about evaluating pitchers – they do that well, no doubt. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’ll trust their evaluation of what Bumgarner is capable of. What worries me is they don’t properly understand the value of the performance they expect out of him. Anything short of 1.5 WAR and it’s a mistake to bring Bumgarner up right now.
it makes a hell of a lot more sense to me to let guys develop a lot in the minors so you can make the 6 team/cost controlled years you have the player as valuable as possible instead of letting them learn on the job and getting worse performance over those 6 years because you brought them up when they were lower on their development curve
Anything less than that and we’re bringing him up too low on the development curve, and not maximizing the value of the 6 cost/team controlled years enough.
Now curious – how many wins do you think this team is capable of, as constructed, right now? I think this team is a true talent ~85 win team, right now, over a full season accounting for injuries, and the possibility of guys just flat out bombing. That’s not close enough to the playoffs to jeopardize the future over, in my opinion.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 6:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
rec’d because it is long, and therefore complex and interesting
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
(Also, 1.5 WAR is an absolute minimum, I’d really prefer 2+ WAR to bring him up)
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 6:26 PM PST up reply actions
I Agree To An Extent
We had an opportunity to improve much more then we did and I do consider it a poor offseason (grade of D) that we did not. That said I think your opinion that we are thus too far away is wrong. I believe we are too close not to go for it and this would have been so even if we had done nothing this offseason. I believe what we have done has improved our chances more then what they would have been if we had done nothing. I trust the Giants judgment that Bumgarner is ready while Posey is not.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 6:30 PM PST up reply actions
Sabean tried. As usual, he failed. Huff, DeRosa, and Molina aren’t bad consolation prizes for missing out on the Johnson/LaRoche sweepstakes, until you realize they take almost 1/6 of our payroll.
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
Sabean failed from the beginning
He said he would wait out the market. He had targets like Johnson and LaRoche and when they passed he got flustered and signed Huff when better options like Branyan and Delgado were (and are) still available.
He accepted that Uribe & Molina were gone but when the market didn’t develop like they thought it would Sabean immediately took them back.
He did a CYA signing with Sanchez-not doing hus due dilligence and seeing that quality 2B’s (like Hudson & Lopez) would be available in late January.
The DeRosa signing was just Sabean trying to get a relative big name FA to come to AT&T
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
To be fair, the Uribe signing might have been a response to Sanchez’s surgery.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
While true, that doesn’t exactly reflect well on Sabean either, since there were (and still are!) other, cheaper, healthier second basemen available.
Yeah, not trying to excuse Sabean, just thought the context of “when the market didn’t develop like they thought it would Sabean immediately took them back” may not accurately describe Uribe’s situation.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 6:45 AM PST up reply actions
Branyan and Delgado are better options?!? Delgado hasn’t shown he’s healthy yet, and Branyan’s had one decent year ever. Sorry, but I’ll take Huff over either of them at this point.
by crazedcrustacean on Jan 29, 2010 12:45 AM PST up reply actions
If you choose to be wrong, that’s fine. I don’t know if you understand how statistical forecasting works or not (most people do not), but it knows how to discount a breakout year, just like it also knows what happens to 33 year olds coming off a year where their production collapsed entirely. There’s a reason Branyan is projected to be a 121 wRC+ hitter and Huff only a 103 wRC+ hitter (CHONE)….because Branyan has a much higher probability of outperforming Huff, despite taking that factor into account, than Huff has of outperforming Branyan. And really, it’s not even very close. Branyan is a much, much better bet than Huff (though we have yet to see what kind of contract Branyan gets, so we can’t full judge the move yet).
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 6:48 AM PST up reply actions
I agree that Branyan will regress this year
but I’d rather take a chance off a guy coming off his best year ever (Branyan) than a guy coming off his worst year ever (Huff)
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Well, beyond what we did or didn’t do this offseason, as our team is constructed right now, how good do you think we are? How many games do you expect us to win? Because ultimately that number should dictate our strategy – if it’s high enough to give us a good shot, I completely agree we should make moves to try to push us into the playoffs this season (though I’m not sure Bumgarner is going to improve us, but that’s another discussion). My thoughts are we’re in the mid-80’s, while a ~90 win team has a 50% chance of making the playoffs, and we’re more in the 20-30% range, which isn’t high enough for me. Your thoughts? Maybe when we see the GRM pitchers projections we’ll get your team projection?
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:02 PM PST up reply actions
I See Us Being About Three Wins Better Then Last Year
I see last year’s team as having been a NL 84 Win True Talent Team. To my way of thinking being now a NL 87 Win True Talent Team gives us a legitimate shot at making the playoffs.
I will indeed address how I see us achieving this when I get around to finishing and posting my Franchise And Friends Projections.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, in that case, assuming we’re projected as an 87 win true talent team, I can see your point of view that we should be making moves for right now. Our difference is I think we’re not that good, so that’s why I differ on how hard we should be going for it. As I’ve said as well, I’m concerned that Bumgarner isn’t going to contribute in a meaningful way this year – the Giants probably have a pretty good idea (or at least will after Spring Training) of how good he is in the present, but they still might choose to bring him up even if their evaluation is he’s less than my cutoffs (1.5 WAR minimum, 2+ preferred), and that worries me. I don’t see that giving us a meaningful improvement in our playoff odds, even if we are around an 87 win team, and so it doesn’t accomplish anything in my view other than wasting one of his 6 years.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 6:52 AM PST up reply actions
you realize
that an 87 win team makes us probably the 4th or 5th best team (projected) in the NL (after Phillies, Dodgers, Cardinals and maybe Braves).
An 87 win PREDICTION is generally a division leading prediction (AL East excepted)
I understand how you get to 87, but I suspect that we are vastly overrating the defense/pitching – and wishcasting that it will be just as good as last year. Sure, it might be. But there was a whole mess of performance past expectations (not “insanely” past expectation… but who did worse that we thought? Randy Johnson? Practically everyone did as well or better than you would expect. So some of those guys are probably better we expected… and some of them were playing over their heads a little.
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
Even 87 wins only gives us a ~30-40% shot at the playoffs, based on historical data.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
But at the same time there’s a league adjustment working in the NL’s favor.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
madbum
analysis just went up on sickles’ site..
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/1/29/1282554/madison-bumgarner
by giantdonkey on Jan 28, 2010 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed.
Plus, don’t fresh call-ups get a few games of above(their)average performance given lack of scouting report?
I say give some older less heralded pitchers a try:
pucetas, Garrett Broshuis, Paul Oseguera,
Craig CLark?
Whoever invented rope was a real a-hole!
by Cannonballden on Jan 29, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
see: sadowski, ryan
but really, it’s kinda pointless bringing up guys in the middle of the season who can’t consistently pitch in the majors. plus, you’re banking on them to not be scouted thoroughly and have some type of advantage for a few games
Pedro as the 5th starter with Smoltz as long relief/5th starter replacement. That’s my favorite scenario.
MadBum should start in AAA and work on his secondary pitches
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
I just trip out how Bumgarner who hasn’t been in AAA is ready but Posey who was awesome in AAA isn’t. Personally I’d like to see Bumgarner in Fresno and probably promote him mid-season. I wouldn’t mind Pedro or Smoltz though, and yes I am hoping those two would be available during ST
01.19.2010
r.i.p. buster posey I really thought you had a shot
What does each want respectively?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
IDK what Pedro wants
but I believe Smoltz wants 4 Mil + Performance bonuses
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
So Pedro wants hookers and Smoltz wants blow?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
I just saw that Smoltz won’t play for the Mets (he has some standards – that may work against us), and may hold out until mid-season a la Pedro to find a team in playoff contention.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
So you're saying we like 'em cheap and easy???
true, true….
Plotting the ultimate demise of Gore51 (never met him, I dunno he could be swell) so as to adopt Kyle Nicholson.
"I don’t know much about sabre-stats but there’s nothing better than white tea and poptarts first thing in the morning" - tk
by Whiteteaandpoptarts on Jan 28, 2010 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
He probably doesn’t want to pitch against the Braves. The Giants may still have a shot although he really didn’t look that terrific as a member of the Red Sox last season. I am overwhelmingly “meh” on Smoltz.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
If the price is right, I’d take a chance on him. Either he does better than most, or he teaches something to the other guys. Plus, he has an awesome manly beard. Hot.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
He doesn’t want to play for them? The NY Times has it the other way.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
That's just radio clowns throwing gas on it.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
/inserts Purple Row joke
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 28, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
Why Bumgarner and not Posey...
I just figured it out after reading this comment. MadBum has been in the system longer. He’s done his time. Good soldier. Gamer. I mean two whole years of Minor league experience. That Posey guy, just one full year. Serve you dues, kid!
co-dad w/AfDC of
Ishikawa, the Topps Rookie All Star Team's First baseman. Does he get a chance in 2010?
The Giants Think He Is Ready And Posey Is Not.
If he starts the season as a member of the rotation and completes the season as a member of the rotation he will still have 2 years of non arbitration followed by three years of arbitration of team control left. If he is ready now (as they seem to believe) there is no good reason to wait and some would argue a good reason to not wait in that he might waste some of his ready pitches in the minors if he only has so many as many pitchers do.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
There is an possilbe motive I've not seen mentioned.
Could the Front Office think it has possible trade lined up is Madison shows well in Spring training or the beginning of the season?
In that scenario it would not matter that he has not thrown 150 IP in a season or velocity drop (because he would have started the ’10 season well) or the lack of developed pitches. The acquiring team would probably put him on the farm and delay the arbitration clock any ways as the rebuild other parts of their roster.
Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at - 25%
Cause it worked so well the last 2 times!
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
This is just a good a place as any for this:
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
Crap – premature “post”.
Anyhoo, this tweet made me laugh:
DodgersGM Latest: If you are a former Giants pitcher and still looking for a job, the Dodgers want to speak to you. #SFGiants #Dodgers #Preapproved
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
Schmidt didn't sour 'em, huh?
Dem r sum dum Dojjers.
Hi, Wil!
/waves
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
I would prefer the Bummed one starts in Fresno. That way his clock is delayed, we see if he was just tired last year and I can see him throw a couple games here in town.
My choice of the available ones would probably be Pedro, but it seems pretty likely the Giants will only get a starter if they can get him on a minor league deal with a spring training invite. I do not see any of those you mentioned taking that deal.
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
A backup starting because the starter is hurt isn’t a starter. He’s still a backup.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
But how many games need a backup start to be the starter if the starter does not start but backing up?
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Jan 28, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
I can’t believe that a remotely health Freddy Sanchez sits on the bench behind Uribe. Even a not-remotely-healthy Edgar Rentaria kept starting over Uribe for some reason.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
So in short: your question is invalid.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
Answer:
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
It's probably been said
but that muppet also reminds me of Ray Ratto.
"Man, you just can't beat a good bowl of gumbo." ~ William Nuschler Clark
And more eloquent.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Jan 28, 2010 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
"Well no... Uribe is a starter because he's been an MLB starter already."
- Bochy
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
He will be playing SS as well. He will cover both positions all by himself. Xanthan will then overdose on orgasms and will a human interest story in the local rag. Once posted on the internet, the story will become viral and he will become a household name.
BASEBALL FAN DIES FRM TOO MANY ORGASMS!!
He will have a wikipedia page and everything.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
He’ll play the inner infield.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
But xanthan already has a wikipedia page!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moran%27s_I
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Jan 28, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
That page makes me angry
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
Orgasm on the rag?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
It’s not impossible or anything.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
Howie has his red badge of courage.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
Juan Uribe
AS I SUSPECTED
Still in despair.
"Use the stencil! Do it!"
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Jan 28, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions
It’s too bad Randy Johnson wasn’t healthy for the year, and gave up 1.78 homeruns per 9 innings, which is just crazy. He was fun to watch pitch at Pac Bell. I can see how having another great, old pitcher like Smoltz or Pedro, would be hopefully fun to watch.
How much do you think the Mariners want Adam Jones back?
only because they couldn’t find the serial key for CS4.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Mmmm…. serial….
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
MLBTR also said Molina to Mets
My career path, have you seen it?
by say hey nation on Jan 28, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
Bedard
Get it done!
Buster Posey, saves Pandas, plays catcher for the SF Giants.
This
it would be like a lower-risk RJ IMO. Big strikeout lefty who might get hurt, but at least he’s younger than Johnson. If he’s not too expensive I’ve always been in favor of taking the chance
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
He would be alright, but his injury history would scare me.
Randy Hahn: "I’ve been referred to as a playa…"
JOEY?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Joey had a pretty good season in Double A in 2008. He looked like a guy you could fill out the rotation with. I’d like to see what he does a year removed from the incident.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
I wouldn’t mind giving Joey a chance at the fifth spot.
Randy Hahn: "I’ve been referred to as a playa…"
Yeah I think I would be ok with this.
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
YEAH JOEY
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Guy can’t even take a 100+ mph fastball to the noggin. Not a good soldier
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
I like the idea of having Bum in the pen, as a step towards the rotation.
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
Ugh. No.
He needs to work on his secondary pitches, which is exactly what he would not be doing if he were a reliever in the majors.
Furthermore, the point Missing Barry is making is quite valid. You get six cost-controlled years of a young player; if you have a future star starting pitcher, why would you want to waste one of those years by using the guy as a middle reliever?
That just sounds like the Jonathan Sanchez development strategy to me
Starter, bullpen, starter, Minor Leagues, Bullpen, Starter, Minor Leagues, Starter, Bullpen, Starter, Bullpen, Starter, Minor Leagues, Bullpen, Starter…
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Worked, didn’t it? He threw a no-hitter!
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
That kind of pinball approach worked for Pablo as well.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
SEND EVERY GIANTS PROSPECT TO THE MAJORS FOR ONE WEEK
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
CONOR GILLASPIE AGREES!!!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
Jesus Guzman loved it.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 28, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, guys, remember when we called Guzman up, and then traded for Garko like 12 hours later, so we had three first basemen on our 25-man roster, and four if you count Pablo? Yeah.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Pablo plays pinball?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 28, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
bo belinsky threw a no-hitter, too (throwing a no-no, in itself, does not make for a good career)
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
Has sort of a poetic rhythm to it
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Smoltz or Martinez
Only because it would continue the Giants’ fine tradition of acquiring potential future Hall of Famers right when their career is about to fall off the rails:
Warren Spahn
Duke Snider
Joe Morgan
Steve Carlton
Gary Carter
Goose Gossage
Randy Johnson
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Yeah, just last spring they were all about “speed & D”. Speed are D are dropped ASAP.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 28, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think he was really seen as a HOFer
If you’re going to include that level of player, Joe Carter’s another one.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Roids
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 28, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions
Don't put Joe Morgan on that list ...
I know he’s the Devil Incarnate on Sunday Night Baseball, but his HR was the only great thing that happened for those of us who came of age between Montefusco’s no-hitter and 1986.
my dodger fan friends are still bitter
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
I love the replays of the Lasorda facepalm
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 28, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
it's not a list of shame or anything
It’s not a BAD thing to be a future Hall of Famer who played for the Giants briefly at or towards the end of his carrer.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
My argument would be that he actually make a legit contribution during his Giants years
As opposed to the likes of Carlton, Gossage and Johnson, who were here to play out the string.
You could argue that those pitchers made legit contributions. I thought Johnson pitched pretty well while he was healthy.
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
agreed, he produced more than I expected, and seemed to have a + effect on the staff (look it up, it’s in the statz)
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
Well…kind of. Johnson did pitch well, but he gave up a lot of HR’s. Counting the HR’s, he didn’t contribute a whole lot, but the HR’s were probably a fluke, so it wasn’t really his fault as much as bad luck.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
I Think The HRs Were The Result Of The Absense Of Enough Velocity Difference Between Slider And Fastball
Thus not a fluke but rather an new reality. Hitters could look for the slider and adjust to the fastball and clobber it.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 6:36 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe, I won’t rule it out. I also noticed how small the velocity difference was. Still, 19.2% HR/FB is really, really high (though Johnson for his career is at 12.1% which is also high). So even if that was a large factor, I’m not sure it accounted for all of it.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:04 PM PST up reply actions
Increase in home runs also might've been because of location
As per this article
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Cause of Increase in Johnson's HRs?
pooh flinging. similar to barry zito pie throwing and bobby howry pus-ball
by E Ticket on Jan 28, 2010 9:34 PM PST up reply actions
It’s not a BAD thing to be a future Hall of Famer who played for the Giants briefly at or towards the end of his career.
Too bad Jackie Robinson didn’t believe that.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 28, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
And my earliest Giants memories are of the LeMaster/Wellman/Trillo era, so.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Without Morgan
We have never known about Mike Krukow.
Randy Hahn: "I’ve been referred to as a playa…"
a little OT:
One of my buddies posted a pic of Mike Aldrete. I commented, “The greatest Giant to ever wear the number 25.”
Another guy commented that I was an f’in idiot and I was wrong because the correct answer was Bobby Bonds. I asked if he was from Colorado. He said he was and asked how I knew.
Highlight of the day.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 28, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve been hiking in the Rockies, and believe me, I passed a lot of wide sarchasms
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Who knows
Maybe the Hall of Fame will decide that Randy Johnson will go into the Hall as a Giant
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
It’s a joke, since the Hall recently decided that Andre Dawson will go in as an Expo rather than as a Cub
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
Any other decision would have been ludicrous. He was really a shell of himself by the time he got to Chicago.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
BUT TEH CUBZ R TEH CENTUR OF BEISBOL
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
But he publicly stated that he wanted to go in as a Cub. It should be up to him
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/09: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
He Played Way More Of His Career As An Expo - Player Preference Just Should Not Matter
The fact that the NFL allows this and thus Marcus Allen is in the NFL Hall Of Fame as a Chief instead of a Raider is a total joke.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
They’re honoring the man, let him choose how he wants to be immortalized in Cooperstown.
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/09: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 11:19 PM PST up reply actions
Weren’t there people basically selling their induction team or writing it into their contracts? I thought that was why they started having the Hall officially be the one to decide.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
It’s all Wade Boggs’ fault.
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
I thought it was Winfield’s for going in as a Padre and everyone said he’d been paid off.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
It was Wade Boggs. Tampa Bay was apparently going to pay him to go in as a Devil Ray
Wayne Rooney, 1/27/09: Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 29, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
Morgan's numbers in his two years with SFG, 1981-82
.388 OBP, .802 OPS, 128 OPS+. FWIW, he was named on a handful of MVP ballots in 82 and left to play 123 games for a pennant-winning Phillies team the following year.
Morgan was such a beast. I can’t believe he got into the HOF with only 81.8%.
Fun Fact: In his first year in the majors, at age 21(!), Morgan drew 96 unintentional walks. It took Barry Bonds a full 10 years in the majors to do that for the first time.
I was promised lasagna.
Most unintentional walks Marvin Benard ever drew: 57.
Huh, he was listed at 5’10". That’s gotta be bullshit.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
benard
he was the ONLY outfielder drafted by the giants in the 90’s, who ever had a starting job in mlb. and he was drafted in the 50th and final round.
by giantdonkey on Jan 28, 2010 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
Well
OK. But that makes the fact that he actually led the league in SLG once(and was in the top-10 for 4 years in a row) absolutely amazing.
I was promised lasagna.
not as impressive as this guy breaking Babe Ruth's home run record
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Something I thought about
During some important AB, in a 3-2 count, as the pitcher starts his motion, the batter sits down/goes into fetal position.
That’s a guaranteed walk, isn’t it (since the strikezone now ends a few inches off the ground)? Nothing in the rule book against it, as far as I know.
I was promised lasagna.
I could see that kind of move leading to a bench-clearing brawl. Or at least a freakout like when Bob Brenly was a jackass about Ben Davis, you know, trying to help his team win instead of helping Curt Schilling get a no-hitter.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Oh, definitely. It guarantees getting beaned in every time you face that pitcher.
I was promised lasagna.
Yeah
but then you get on base every time you face that pitcher. I’d do it.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
The Strike Zone shall
be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.
Generally, sitting down isn’t considered being prepared to swing – I think if you try to duck under a pitch, the ump is supposed to call it as though you were swinging.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
Yup
Umps will look at your normal hitting stance and the strike zone is supposed to stay right there.
If someone tried that fetal position thing, I’d ring him up on principle.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
No, the rule states that the strike zone is where you are when preparing to swing, not cowering in the dirt.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 29, 2010 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Joe Morgan’s bb-ref page is one of my favorites.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
It always bugs me when people say Kent is the best 2B of the past 40 years or something. Morgan was sooo much better.
I was promised lasagna.
Whitaker and Sandberg are arguable too
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
hmm
Rogers Hornsby
Jeff Kent
Roberto Alomar
Joe Morgan
There seems to be a correlation with being a great second baseman and being a jackass.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Put ________ at second then!
I’m still trying to figure out which McC poster should be in there…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
/Bill James descends and smites Cookyman
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
he had a huge mancrush on Biggio
Named him the second best player of the era, only behind Barry.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I’m assuming era = 90’s. Biggio had a great decade, but I don’t see how was better than Griffey.
I was promised lasagna.
It was among active players, I think, probably written earlier this decade. So yeah, more or less the 90s.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
oh, and also
Now that I did some Googling, I’m reminded that Bill James also had Craig Biggio as the 35th best player ever.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I wish I could find my copy of the Historical Abstract, because he does a long comparison of Biggio and Griffey. If memory serves, the crux of his argument is that Biggio’s performance was more valuable within league context.
In 1994, for instance, which was Biggio’s first great year, run scoring in the NL was 4.62 runs per team per game; in the AL, it was 5.23. So Biggio’s .408 wOBA was a lot closer in value to Griffey’s .442 than you might think (especially since Biggio was playing in the most extreme pitcher’s park in baseball).
That's intersting
But what if the AL scored more runs because it had better hitters, not because of worse pitchers? If that’s the case, then it shouldn’t affect anything.
I was promised lasagna.
The AL certainly had better hitters, if only because of the DH. James’s contention is that that doesn’t matter. If you’re playing in an environment in which nine runs are scored in the average game, everything you do is considerably more valuable than it would be if you were playing in a ten-run environment, because it would produce more wins for your team.
It’s flawed reasoning, I think — it’s like rewarding RBI guys with the MVP every year, simply because of the circumstances they find themselves in.
Yeah, when you’re talking about the greatest players ever, I don’t know why taking into account run environment to see who was more valuable matters. Shouldn’t we attempt to determine who the best player was?
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 7:25 AM PST up reply actions
To me, RBIs are only significant for awards like the MVP.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 29, 2010 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
RBIs are the thing I lived for as a batter… and yes, you are correct. I was assuming that it was after the act.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 30, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
Biggio is certainly worthy of being in the discussion
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
He had a loooooooooooooooooooong decline, mostly because he hung around, but his peak is still really damn good.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
My guess is that Alomar’s defense greatly exceeded that of Morgan’s.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Actually, (obviously you would take this all with a grain of salt) but Alomar’s defensive numbers that have been run don’t look as good as expected. That said, his reputation was so great that I think I can’t imagine him being below average and it’s hard to really buy him being even just average for his peak.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
What defensive numbers? The only UZR I see are from his old, decliney Mets years.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
There’s discussion of it here and in other threads relating to that election. It’s obviously not the be all and end all, but it’s a pretty interesting discussion.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
TotalZone
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-defense-for-players-back-to-1956/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-defense-for-players-back-to-1956-part-2/
Has him as pretty average. Morgan a bit below average. I actually wrote about this before – Sean Smith used it to name the best fielder of the past 50 years, and everything was completely intuitive – Mays, Ozzie Smith, Kieth Hernandez, Schmidt, Clemente, etc. The only real exception I noticed was Alomar.
I’m willing to ignore it, though.
I was promised lasagna.
I saw him play quite a bit with the Padres and he looked crazy good to me.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
He has about 12 GG too. I don’t know what it is he did that somehow looked amazing but TZ couldn’t pick up.
I was promised lasagna.
Well, Jeter has multiple GG’s, too. Not that Alomar wasn’t deserving….just that they’re probably not the most accurate reflection of whether a player was actually good or not.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
Jeter has 4, all in the later part of his career, after he had been crowned Emperor of Baseball.
Alomar won 10 GG in 11 years, starting in his age 23 season.
When a guy wins a few GG’s, it’s sometimes just a sign that he’s really popular, a good hitter, etc. But 10? That means there was a clear consensus that he’s great.
OK, I did some research; here’s a list of position players with at least 8 GG’s, with the ones who don’t have good defensive numbers* in bold:
Roberto Clemente
Willie Mays
Ken Griffey
Andruw Jones
Al Kaline
Keith Hernandez
Don Mattingly
George Scott
Roberto Alomar
Ryne Sandberg
Bill Mazeroski
Brooks Robinson
Mike Schmidt
Ozzie Smith
Omar Vizquel
Luis Aparicio
Mark Belanger
Garry Maddox
Dwight Evans
Andre Dawson
Torii Hunter
Ken Griffy Junior
Barry Bonds
Ichiro Suzuki
Johny Bench
Pudge Rodriguez
Only 4 out of 26 don’t have good defensive numbers (Griffy has a few good years drowned by a lot of terrible ones, Mattingly is a bit above average, Hunter and Alomar are meh). Of the rest, a few have pretty good numbers (Dawson, Evans, one or two others) most have great numbers, and a few have ridiculous numbers (I think Robinson and Belanger lead the group).
So I wouldn’t dismiss GG’s, especially when we don’t have a lot of other information (guys for whom we don’t have UZR and whom we didn’t get to see play). There have been many silly selections, and there are some who were snubbed, and good hitters definitely have a huge advantage, but when a guy wins a ton of them, it usually means something.
When there’s a rare contradiction between the stats and the consensus, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the stats are off, but it’s definitely a possibility. With cruse stats like TZ, it’s probably likely.
*Either UZR, TZ, or Sean Smith’s catching metric, depending on what’s available and appropriate.
I was promised lasagna.
I don’t think that could make up for the difference on offense though. Morgan is still the clear #1 for me.
I was promised lasagna.
Their OPS are pretty comparable. Are you giving Morgan credit for his era?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Alomar OPS+: 116
Morgan OPS+: 132
Alomar’s top 5 years by OPS+: 150, 141, 139, 136, 134
Morgan’s top 5 years by OPS+: 187, 169, 159, 154, 149
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
And Morgan’s OPS was more derived from his OBP, so yeah, I do see your point now.
BUT ALOMAR WAS A 300 HITTUR
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
I wish we had a player like Joe Morgan right now :(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
go to bed, sabes
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
They are both black and “play” second base!
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
Budding superstar cornerstone, sucka.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Morgan was a superb fielder with the Big Red Machine, and he was probably better when he was younger, though no one ever saw Colt .45 games so it’s hard to tell. What do the historical zone ratings have to say about him?
I feel like I just read a think on BBTF that said that he probably didn’t age that well. I wish I could find it.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
He peaks at above average for a about 5 years with the Machine, but below average before and after that.
I was promised lasagna.
Hmm
His TZ peak is exactly his GG seasons, so maybe there’s something to it.
I was promised lasagna.
TZ?
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
TotalZone
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Those TotalZone numbers for Morgan tell an interesting story. All through the sixties, his fielding numbers were below average, culminating in a -10 in 1970. Then in 1971, he was in positive territory for the first time with a +11, one of the best in the league.
What happened between 1970 and 1971? AstroTurf. The Astrodome had problems with the playing surface all through the ‘60s, but in 1971 they put in new turf, completely eliminating the dirt infield except for the little patches around the bases. And Morgan’s number’s skyrocketed.
He moved to Cincinnati the next year, which also had the all-turf infield, and his numbers continued to be great for several years before he slowed down in the late ’70s.
Which is pretty weird
TZ varies greatly from year to year, but usually over a career you see a logical progression. For example Mays is very good over his first 10 years, then superhuman in his early-mid 30’s, then OK in his last few years. I like that because it fits what people say.
I was promised lasagna.
Is that a logical progression? I find it hard to believe that a center fielder would peak in his thirties.
From what I remember from the stories I’ve heard/read, the general consensus is that he looked better than ever in his early 30’s. I might be misremembering though.
He was still fast at the time, though not crazy fast. It could be about Candlestick – the toughest thing there was the winda, not the size of CF, and Mays was the best in the league at handling them (both because he’s Mays, and because he got to play there more than anyone).
I was promised lasagna.
Seems like the wind at Candlestick would make a big impression on observers but not so much on a rating system. Unless the system uses some sort of park-effect adjustment, comparing how Mays did in Candlestick with how everyone else did there.
Nah, it’s not a logical progression – fielders peak earlier than hitters, more like age 25-26 or so. Doesn’t mean in Mays case he didn’t peak in his early-mid 30’s, though.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 6:59 AM PST up reply actions
I meant logical
In the sense that it tells a story (albeit a unique – though not impossible – one). It’s doesn’t just look like random year to year fluctuations.
I was promised lasagna.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Big Red Machine won their back to back world series during Morgan’s two best seasons. Those two seasons are some fantastic seasons. A .466 OBP from a second baseman in 1975? That’s insane.
The baseball Satanist
What about his BA?
That’s the only number that really matters.
2nd was Rose, and 10th was Griffey, both also on the Machine.
Why is it that Morgan hates OBP again?
I was promised lasagna.
If Morgan was more open to our new age statistics, he might actually realize what a great player he was…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
I’v have softened my stance on Morgan, though. He’s wrong, and he’ll die wrong, and he’s arrogant and dismissive, but – he was just so good. Can you really expect someone who was so good at we he did to suddenly realize – or even just be open to the idea – that he he doesn’t completely understand parts of what he did? if Beane hadn’t been a bust, I don’t know if he would have been able to open up to new ideas.
He’s still a pain to listen to, and some of what he says is completely inexcusable, but I’ve learned to accept him.
I was promised lasagna.
I actually dislike him less than most – I think it’s kind of reached the point where people just jump on any little thing he says and does they disagree with, but there are times when he actually does show a decent understanding of the stuff we accuse him of not knowing, even if he doesn’t understand it through Fangraph’s framework or anything.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Wait, really? I’ve never seen him demonstrate even the most basic understanding of any new idea.
I was promised lasagna.
"The two most overrated stats in all of baseball are batting average and earned run average. I measure a player by his run production: Slugging percentage and on-base percentage actually tell you more about run production than batting average."
-Joe Morgan, 1993
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve heard this quote, but never saw the context.
He says a lot of crap now. He keeps on trying to put Beane down, and ends up embarrassing himself because he just shows how little he actually knows about the A’s, or about sabermetrics.
Hello Joe. What do the Oakland A’s need to do be competitive again? Maybe Billy Beane should quit writing books and start acquiring some athletes.
Joe Morgan (11:07 AM)
Become more athletic. Sometimes, when I look at the A’s players, I think they’re playing softball. They have some big guys who try to hit the ball out of the ballpark. They strike out a lot. They just are not in position to make things happen on the basepaths. They’ve never really been a team to run or steal bases, bunt guys over or hit and run. They’ve always tried to hit the big home run. Now they have one guy in Davis. Their philosophy was working for a while, but now that philosophy doesn’t work any more. You have to be more athletic, steal some bases in order to be a well rounded team. You don’t have to steal a lot of bases, but you have to have the threat there.
The A’s were 4th in the majors in stolen bases last year. 27th in home runs. They were arguably the most attletic team in baseball. Morgan’s willing to make stuff up just to make the A’s look bad.
Not to mention the ridiculous notion that the difference between a bad team and a good one could come down to stealing more bases and execute the hit and run.
Like I said, I’m not angry at him or anything. But he’s an awful announcer.
I was promised lasagna.
I mean, I understand why he became a target, I don’t think his preperation is very good and he’s become out of touch with the evolution of the game and advancement in statistics and such, but I do think it’s gotten to a point where it’s just not really fair to him. I think he does have a lot more knowledge than he’s given credit for, though in general I’m not a fan of his announcing, either. I guess the only point I’m trying to make is he does have some redeeming qualities, if it wasn’t for FJM, I don’t think he’d get nearly as much crap as he does.
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
I know I’m probably freaking out over MadBum’s velocity dips and lower K rates, but with Tim going to arbitration, the idea of trading MadBum for a good young hitter is sounding much more appealing to me.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
Who would you trade him for?
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
#2 in Fanshots
PRINCE FIELDER
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
WCW TOLD U SO
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Smoak, maybe? Would that be enough? Too much? You guys really know better than I do about that.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 28, 2010 3:35 PM PST up reply actions
I’d do that trade for sure.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 28, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
Do scouts still expect his power to appear? He’s shown great discipline, but a 1B without power is pretty limited in value. Nick Johnson pulls it off, but he’s really something special.
I was promised lasagna.
I saw him a little bit last year. So my opinion as a advanced amateur novice person pretending to be a scout is Smoak is patient & seems to have good bat control (to me that means he can slap the ball to right with the runner moving, or hitting with power to the opposite field). He seemed to be willing to get singles instead of swing for the fences. Not sure if he was just trying to get settled in to AA first, but then he got hurt, healed & was sent off to Oklahoma (AAA) where he was probably still recovering from an oblique injury.
Just my 2 cents from maybe 10 games seen.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Given what you just said about velocity dip and low K rates, this would seem like a classic case of trading low.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Well obviously nothing is really certain yet about his status, I’m just concerned he’s going to go all Ryan Jensen on us.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 28, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Ryan Jensen wasn’t really ever much of a prospect.
Not that there aren’t good comps in our recent past, mind you.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
But he was a pretty solid fifth starter in 2002
by crazedcrustacean on Jan 28, 2010 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
I’d like to see Bumgarner start in the majors, then rest if he struggles. Then have the other three get a shot
Apparently the Marlins do this type of thing fairly successfully.
They don’t have much of a choice though.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I’d rank Bedard at a few levels above “meh”
"Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say 'he's playing well' and I'm thinking 'no, he's not.' My advice to anyone is don't listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinion."
-Roy Keane
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 28, 2010 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
Im not sure about that.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Im not sure. I would rather not spend the money, I dont know if Bumgarner is ready but Im alright with him being the 5th starter. I think Bedard is better though.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
Yea, agreed… i mean, if the giants can get him for cheap then i’d say go for it, but that’s the issue, can they get him for cheap…
Alright yeah. But I think there are better options out there.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
I’d honestly rather go JoeMart, or KevPuc. As long as those names don’t stick
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Jan 28, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
BOOYA!!! WITH AUTHORITY!!!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 28, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
I like your new sig. I feel like I should say that with a wink
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Jan 28, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
It’s an orange and black light special!
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Jan 28, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
/gets hired by giants marketing team
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Jan 28, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
Oh sorry, fresh out of water, how about some FLAMING HOT balls of FIRE!
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Jan 28, 2010 6:03 PM PST up reply actions
Damn. Looking at the list, there are not as many pitchers still available as I thought. I think Wang would come cheaper, and i think he would be a good 5th starter at worst. He is only 30 and I consider last season to be a fluke. If anything he should have improved. His FIP is .17 lower than his ERA. i think he would be our best option if we want a quality pitcher.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
Not for 10 mil. More then I wanted to spend while we have MadBum.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:59 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah. Hes is really a gamble too. He hasnt pitched in a while. I heard his velocity is back up to what it was when he was dominate, but is he is pretty injury prone.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah. If not, try YEAH JOEY, Pucetas, and whoever else. If none of them work, then go after someone.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
Not meant to be mean
But I saw that you two were going back and worth and was like “wow, they’re talking about baseball…”
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
And you just killed the moment.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
Dude, the mean streets of Moraga… crazy shit goes down there, you have no idea… Going into Fudge Alley at 1 AM on a Saturday is crazy
yer one tough sonofabitch, pika
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
Fudge Alley? That some kinda candy store? sounds real scary
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:15 PM PST up reply actions
moraga’s famous fudgepacking district
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 6:21 PM PST up reply actions
Sounds like a booth at the Folsom St. Fair.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
Ya, well im guessing it will be MadBum, but im saying we wont know whether he will be good enough to keep the spot. I wouldnt be opposed to signing a cheaper, pitcher to be our 5th starters for a year, such as Josh Fogg(33), Kip Wells(33), Todd Wellemeyer(31) or Jason Jennings (33). Any of these guys would probably come cheap and would be fine as 5th starters.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
He originally came up with the Pirates. He, Kris Benson, and Josh Fogg were supposed to be the core of a good young pitching staff for them.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Wells and Benson, maybe. Not Fogg.
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
Yea somethin like that i think… Whatever, i’m down, that’s only if Bumgarner is meh this spring training
does he cook & clean?
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
That sounds dirty.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 28, 2010 11:40 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
They can’t exactly sign whomever they want.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
She’s in her early-30s. Just in his age range!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
2 year 12M
Well allegedly she has not had any “procedure” done. So she should be healthy right.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Utility infielders for $3M are luxury items
It’s a shame we don’t have 3 ML ready utility infielders,like Frandsen, Rohlinger and Downs, that would be making the league minimum this year.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
They Suck And Uribe Doesn't - Calling Them ML Ready Is The Same As Calling Burriss ML Ready - Do Not Want.
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
Deja Vu?
Ok, we had this SAME discussion last week so I won’t go into it too much except to say that the 3 guys I mentioned have actually hit at AAA and Burriss hasn’t hit above Low-A, so it’s not the same and I would rather spend 3 million on a #5 starter than on a guy like Uribe, who will likely regress, and keep those 3 guys at 4A purgatory without giving them a shot.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
The past three seasons, Uribe has been worth 0, 0.2, and 2.9 WAR. Which one looks like the outlier to you?
None - The Average Of 1 WAR + Looks Like Reality To Me
by giantsrainman on Jan 28, 2010 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
As much as I hate taking your side, more recent performance is more important, which is why he’s projected to be a ~2 WAR player (though I could see his utility role reducing his defensive performance a bit, so maybe more like 1.7?), given a full season of PT.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 6:21 PM PST up reply actions
More recent performance is more important, but you can’t totally discount the three seasons before that. I don’t think he’s going to splode or turn into a pumpkin, but he’s probably going to be somewhere in between replacement and below average. If he’s anything else, I’ll be surprised.
Well that’s the whole point of looking at the projections – they know all that, and they’re built to take historical averages into account and what players in general actually do, and they say he’s likely to be a below average hitter, but still hit better than his career totals.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:06 PM PST up reply actions
But know I still would rather have Frandsen over Uribe and the money spent elsewhere, unless Uribe gets a lot of PT (which probably means we’re wasting money on one of our old, hurt infielders).
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
so does Uribe
TEMPORARY SIG AWAITING FINAL SABEAN APOCALYPSE
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game in development
Random Note
Last night, I asked Sandoval if he was going to play any catcher this season. “Nope,” he said. “Well, look,” I said. “It would totally help my fantasy team if you had eligibility at the position.” “Nope,” he said. “A’ight,” I said.
You just…ran into Sandoval on the street… or, what?
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
It was a Greg Papa-hosted “Inside the Clubhouse” thing with Schierholz, Groeschner (sp?), and Bam-Bam Muelens. Awesomest part: Lincecum randomly popping his head out a door in the hallway like a gopher and saying “hi.” He had his sunglasses on for some reason…
Thats cool. where was it?
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm I didnt hear about this. It was a fundraiser?
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
Other Possible 5ths
I was holding my breath for Jon Garland, but the Padres stole him away.
Jarrod Washburn would be perfect, but I fear the price tag is too steep. He will probably be looking for around $10mill.
Erik Bedard would be a great addition, but he would be our 3rd lefty in the rotation. I’m not sure if having more lefties and righties is necessarily bad, but it just seems weird to me.
welcome to McCovey Chronicles. Bedard had an overrated season last year, and should regress significantly. i think we should sit tight with Bumgarner and see what he has to prove in spring training.
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
Do you mean Washburn had an overrated season last year?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
he’s 34.
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
also, he had a 7.33 ERA with the Tigers, but an ERA of 2.68 with Seattle, so I don’t think he’ll do all that well
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
Actually, Bedard’s FIP last year was ridiculously higher than his ERA. Doesnt mean he will regress, but its likely.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:29 PM PST up reply actions
Well, depends, if you’re talking about his 2.82 ERA, yeah, that was helped by his defense, but he still had a 3.55 FIP, which shouldn’t regress too much, and that’s very, very solid, especially out of the AL (DH means worse numbers).
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
On Fangraphs the team fans, who are always the most generous to their players in terms of projections, predicted that he’d end up with an ERA of 3.50, which accounts for something
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
I dont put much stock into that. I do put some stock in his 3.55 FIP however.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
Bottom line, I don’t want Bedard. other teams are staying away from him, and for good reason. I’d much rather have Smoltz, as he’d give more bang for the buck.
I speak fluent English and Arabic and have a working knowledge of Spanish. Yet a certain GrahamCrakalaka cannot distinguish me from Mike Fox. My God, the Dodgers suck.
First off, he is 43. Secondly, he posted a 6.35 ERA last year, although only a 3.87 FIP. I dont think he is fit to play a whole season any more than MadBum is.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
3.87 FIP is solid. Remember we’re talking 5th starter here, even if it goes up to 4.50 FIP that’s still good for what we’re looking for.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:07 PM PST up reply actions
yeah I know, the 6.35 ERA isnt though. Something happened to make those two so far apart, like maybe hitters are hitting a lot of line drives off of Smoltz. I dont know if FIP accomodates for that or not.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions
Fielding Independent Pitching. Nothing in play counts towards it. (Unless you’re Ryan Sweeney and robbing homers from Ian Kinsler.)
Basically, all FIP does is take into account strikeouts, walks and HR’s, under the theory a pitcher can control those, and not much else. It could have been defense for Smoltz – Penny experienced a similar thing in Boston last year where his ERA was well above his FIP, and on the year the Red Sox were a bit below average defensively. It also could have been luck – things like having a bunch of hits strung together by random variation to lead to a lot of runs – things like that definitely bring down a pitchers contribution over that period, but go back to being normal in the future.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:53 PM PST up reply actions
So if a pitcher struggled from the stretch, that would most likely result in him having a higher FIP than ERA?
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 7:59 PM PST up reply actions
Well, depends on what you mean, exactly. As long as he’s still racking up strikeouts, walks and HR’s at his normal rate, but you mean he’s getting hit hard (high BABIP) with runners in scoring position, his ERA will be higher than his FIP, and his FIP will better indicate what his ERA will be in the future.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 8:04 PM PST up reply actions
Oh. yeah that makes more sense. I just confused myself. Thats what happens when i think too hard. Thanks.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 9:25 PM PST up reply actions
Are either of these supposed to be bad things? 3.50 ERA from Fan projection or 3.55 FIP would be fantastic to have, even if only for a partial season (though not at 10 mil)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
No I guess not. Im just saying he not going to put up another sub-3 ERA.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 6:50 PM PST up reply actions
He doesn’t need to to be a good candidate for 5th starter though
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I think he would be better than sanchez and Zito.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 28, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions
Spoiled
Have we become spoiled as Giants fans? Is it so wrong to wish 4 or 5 runs out of the 5th man in the rotation and cross our fingers the offense picks up the slack every other game? Most teams didn’t have the luxury of Sanchez as the 5th starter. But I agree mostly with everyone else at giving Bumgarner a shot. He has looked promising thus far. Wish we would do the same for Posey.
by BooRadley2785 on Jan 29, 2010 9:49 PM PST up reply actions
We did OK with three lefties last year.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
In case anybody missed it, KNBR Hot Stove League hosted by Dave Flemming (taped because Flem has his ESPN U college basketball duties tonight). He had Joe Martinez, Bam Bam Meulens and Henry Schulmann on. I’m sure the show will be archived on KNBR.com.
"meh"
damn, meant to remember to listen to it
KNBR hasnt been posting it, but I found a link on the giants website oddly enough with them all.
But I think they take a while uploading the new shows onto there
Its funny because fuck the dodgers
OT: Fucking A, sharks game…. whatever, great game, now Santa Clara has to beat Gonzaga, GO BRONCOS!!!! (only time this will ever happen)
ESPN U had San Francisco vs. Portland with Dave Flemming doing play by play. Weird to hear him do national TV (if you consider ESPN U national TV).
"meh"
YIKES!!!! i went to USF for a semester…. but then transferred back to MIami U… sweet school, basketball sucks
Didn’t know that… i mean, I was there around the time Eddie Sutton was there, and i was like.. Oh hey thats cool… But i’m a SMC gael fan, so yea
uh, the Cal game; completely forgot about it.
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions
FUCK MU
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 28, 2010 10:51 PM PST up reply actions
but I do know a little about mu
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Jan 29, 2010 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
Tyler Walker Signs with Nat's
good for tyler, still gettin’ paid to play baseball…
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
Sign Pedro Martinez
For no other reason than he’s awesome and my favorite player and he’s awesome.
Also he’ll probably only give you a good two months before flaming out, which would dovetail nicely with MadBum, unless he’s still throwing 74 mph fastballs with the Giants saying there’s nothing wrong.
In which case I panic.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 29, 2010 4:09 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
This belongs in the image repository.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 29, 2010 7:34 PM PST up reply actions
Recommended because of that gif
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
My question is are Molina/Uribe enough of an upgrade over Frandsen/Posey to justify not bringing Penny back for 7.5 million?
No one here gets out alive.
penny for my thoughts
i liked brad penny :/
by slackersphere17 on Jan 30, 2010 4:11 PM PST reply actions
he was lik a yoked up version of cain
by slackersphere17 on Jan 30, 2010 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
2010 Giants line up
Depth chart details for mlb
Position Starter
Catcher Bengie Molina 25hr
First Base Pablo Sandoval 20hr
Second Base Freddy Sánchez .300 150 hits
Shortstop Édgar Rentería .290 135 hits
Third Base Juan Uribe 23 hr
Left Field Mark DeRosa 25hr
Center Field Aaron Rowand 20 hr
Right Field Aubrey Huff 30 hr
Pitching Staff
Starting Rotation ERA
Tim Lincecum 2.48
Matt Cain 2.89
Barry Zito 4.00
Jonathan Sánchez 4.00
Pedro martinez 4.00
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on McCovey Chronicles
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- We're Going Streaking! Delmon Young is finally blossoming
- Edwin Jackson is headed to Chicago, but will he stay there?
- Is Bryce Harper using Facebook for contract leverage?
- Say what? Michael Saunders chases homer, creates bleacher chaos
- Twins fans are the opposite of psyched for this Matt Capps trade
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
