McCovey you're losing me
by world wide suicide on Jan 20, 2010 9:59 PM PST
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McCovey you are losing me. I’ve been a fan of this blog for about two years now, though I don’t comment often. McCovey has provided its readers and I with insight and humor regarding our beloved Giants and baseball in general, but the blog’s content and themes are turning me off. For gosh sakes, the negativity mixed with statistical dogmatism around here is incredible and its eroding my enthusiasm about the blog itself and even the Giants. I don’t remember the last time Sabean or the Giants made a wise move or even one that couldn’t be ridiculed. By reading this blog, one would think it was about the Pirates or Washington Generals! The Giants were 88-74 last year!
Well, you might say ‘but there is so much wrong with Sabaen and organization’s philosophy and decisions’. Of course, there problems and mistakes have and will be made, but are they really as bad as is portrayed here? No, they are not. Take a look at Athletics Nation for ten minutes and you’ll find twice the hope and optimism. The A’s stunk last year and are almost guaranteed to finish in last place this year, but the blog looks on things with a more even keel and is not afraid to voice optimism from time to time. One might say, ‘well, they have Billy Beane and he’s a certified baseball genius’. Beane makes plenty of mistakes, they just get sugar coated over.
Pessimism regarding Bengie Molina’s a case in point. Is he a flawed catcher, you bet. Is he a horrible catcher that will drag down the Giants season? No. There’s been no discussion by Grant as to Molina’s likely role on the Giants in 2010. In my opinion, he was brought back to be the main catcher for the 1st half, batting 7th in the lineup where his type of hitting should play more efficiently, and in the 2nd half cede playing time to Buster Posey. In my opinion, Posey is not ready for the big leagues just yet and I think it correct that he catch for AAA for some time. I also disagree with the logic that the catcher doesn’t affect a pitching staff. I think if one could privately ask all the Giants pitchers who’d they want behind the plate this year, Posey or Molina, Molina would win in a landslide. It is also just a one-year deal so nothing is stopping Posey from starting next year, only his 2nd out of college. I don't recall these arguments being made on the front page of McCovey.
Blogs are made for criticism and baseball is a game full of second guessing, but could we please see less ‘woo’s me’ and more overall optimism. I mean the Giants have a lot of great things going for them this year and we have a lot to be proud of and hopeful for.
Go Giants
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Is he a horrible catcher that will drag down the Giants season? No.
That’s actually up for debate. :)
I don't know about that, to the groin.
It really is, as is world wide’s opinion of what Molina’s role will be.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I honestly don’t even think Sabean knows what Molina’s role will be.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
By who?
He didn’t drag their season down last year, and if he’s so inconsequential how will he drag this season down? You can’t argue out of one side of your mouth that defense and calling games means next to nothing, then argue how Molina’s poor defense will drag the Giants down. I sat through the ‘86 Giants and some other awful teams, and what’s not to like about the Freak, Panda and the mo-hawk riddled bullpen. Is each one of them the best player at their position in the league? No. But that doesn’t mean they can’t get to the playoffs, and with their pitching that’s all they need to do. Not to mention that anyone who spent money this offseason is a fool because the 2010 class is leaps and bounds better than this year’s free agent class.
Don't give him the game ball Dusty, you'll jinx it...
by The Neuschler on Jan 21, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t know how you pulled any of that from my comment.
Bengie Molina is a very bad hitter who stands a better chance of being worse than he was than anything else. That could potentially be detrimental to the team.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 2:11 PM PST up reply actions
No He Has A Better Chance Of Being The Same Then He Does Of Being Either Worse Or Better.
You can reasonably argue that he has a better chance of being worse then he does of being better but it is foolish to argue that he has a better chance of being worse then he does of being the same. The only way your arguement makes any sense is if you limit your defination of being the same to a single statistical point rather then a reasonable range.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
Well, I see the point you’re making, and you’re right that we should assume a player will play at their talent level (rather than above or below), but given aging curves, we should assume that talent level is lower than last year by some amount…
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
Well, I’ll play my 75% heads, three-sided coin with you and call that a perfectly fair point. I do worry about Molina’s age and size getting to him, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he stays roughly the same.
Even then, though, he’s a bat hitter who stands a very good chance to cost the Giants runs on offense.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
No, he’s likely to be worse. He’s 35 and coming off a career best in home runs. How many players are able to hold their ground from there?
How many catchers are able to hold their ground?
According to one BP study, not many.
After age 34, things go downhill very quickly for catchers, a trend noticeable even in the very small sample sizes beyond age 35 that aren’t shown here.
Anecdotally, the two notable exceptions that come to mind are Benito Santiago and Carlton Fisk. (Holy cow, Fisk started 112 games at catcher at age 42, and put up a 134 OPS+ for the season. No wonder the dude’s in the HOF.) I’m confident Molina is no Carlton Fisk.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
It was all about your comment, some was more a response to the original posting about negativity on this blog. I was taking issue that it was up for debate whether Molina would drag down the Giants season, and dealing with some of the arguments I’ve seen tossed around on here. I don’t think it’s up for debate, Molina is a catcher who will hit 6th or 7th, and put up decent—not great—numbers for a catcher. The Giants also don’t seem to be in love with him, and if he falters I think Posey will get his chance.
Don't give him the game ball Dusty, you'll jinx it...
by The Neuschler on Jan 22, 2010 4:00 AM PST up reply actions
I think it’s up for debate whether or not he’ll put up decent numbers for a catcher, though.
And even then, I’m not saying he’ll singlehandedly drag the season completely down the crapper. But he’ll most likely cost us runs, which will most likely drag down the season, even if the effect is only marginal.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 22, 2010 8:36 AM PST up reply actions
Not to mention that anyone who spent money this offseason is a fool because the 2010 class is leaps and bounds better than this year’s free agent class
Well, I don’t know which class is better, but I think you’re missing half the equation here. How much is each class being paid? Last year and this year we’ve seen the price of a marginal win fall to pretty low values – will it continue to be so cheap?
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
I think that for what the Giants need it may not be a matter of how cheap, but how good. What I mean—and this is a couple of years apart, but it’s the best I have off the top of my head—is that you can pay 125 mil+ to Barry Zito or to C.C. Sabathia. Even though Sabathia might have ultimately cost a bit more, which would you prefer? Obviously, there seem to have been better hitters out there than the ones the Giants eventually signed, but they also need to deal with the very real perception that AT&T will kill a hitter’s stats, and ultimately cost them money, even though it only ranks 20th in hitters park, instead of 45th as often perceived. Yes, they could have gotten somewhat better players, but what they really need is a 3 or 4 hitter with power, and there simply weren’t any available.
2010-2011 FA’s
Lance Berkman
Derek Lee
Albert Pujols
Jimmy Rollins
Adam Dunn
Jayson Werth
Paul Konerko
Don't give him the game ball Dusty, you'll jinx it...
by The Neuschler on Jan 22, 2010 3:56 AM PST up reply actions
i smell jayson werth for 6/ 75 mill
Les Plack = more chicks
Dingerz.exe League Champs 2009- The Rile Rods...managed by yours truly.
by Headhunter Rollins on Jan 22, 2010 7:51 AM PST up reply actions
Pujols has no chance of hitting the market. Rollins just isn’t that good. I think Philly will try to keep Werth…..I dunno how good that looks if Werth doesn’t hit FA.
The whole point is every year there are a lot of FA’s. At the top of the market, sure, it’s very different year to year what’s available, but anywhere below that there are always going to be a collection of good players – and the question is, how much does it cost to get them? Maybe next year a guy like Nick Johnson gets $12M a year instead of the 8 I think he got. Well…that makes the situation worse for us – if we had offered him $12M this year, we probably would have had a good shot at landing him and giving ourselves a real boost in offense. We can make a big difference without taking one of the best players – 2-3 good players helps a lot, too.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2010 7:59 AM PST up reply actions
I think Johnson got a $5.5m contract
(I think he turned down an extra 500 K from the Giants too…. hahahahhah… :-( not funny)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
I believe Lance Berkman is expected to retire after the season.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Perfect fit for the Giants then.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 22, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
I hadn't heard that before
Where’d you hear that? As recently as last May he was talking about playing 3-4 more years.
If he doesn’t retrire, the Astros have a club option for 2011 anyway.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 22, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
Also, you’re mistaking realism for pessimism.
I get your point. It can be kind of gloomy, and that’s not necessarily a welcoming environment. But the team isn’t exactly winning hearts with its organizational procedures.
If you want to see us not be gloomy, just start a thread about Sandoval and Lincecum. And Cain. We love those guys. Seriously.
It’s not our fault that the breaking Giants news right now is unencouraging at best.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
Well said.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Jan 20, 2010 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly
I’d say our pessimism is justified. Plus Sabean’s moves haven’t really earned our trust whereas Beane’s moves have earned the A’s fans trust.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
by Gobroks on Jan 20, 2010 10:48 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Unless you are talking to A’s fans that root for laundry instead of baseball players that is Bullshit.
Beane trades off players just as they begin to endear themselves to the fans. Broke-ass Chavez is the only guy he’s held onto and he shoulda’ been DFA’d 2yrs ago.
Your bench player is our #5 hitter!!!
Beane has almost always put a competititve team on the field
He gets rid of players when they become too expensive for him. If Billy Beane was the Giants GM I think we’d be a lot happier.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I loved Beane til the Harden trade. That was uggh I thought. He’s probably still one of the best though.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
He's not perfect
For example: Ethier for Milton Bradley.
But he’s still very good
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
They got a lot of talent in the Haren trade, including Brett Anderson, who might be as good as Haren soon.
Not so sure about trading what might have been among the best of those (Carlos Gonzalez) for Matt Holliday though, I’ll admit.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yeah I thought the Haren trade was great.
For now Im thinking big Z in seattle has the better hit/miss ratio, Theos good too, Cashmans finally figuring out how to do not dumb things with money, I blank on other gms.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 23, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
not great but good considering he was gonna leave
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 23, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
Not to get all mathy on you
But this is how my feelings about the team go:
good moves by the FO = good feelings
good play = good feelings
bad moves by the FO = bad feelings
bad play = bad feelings
We’ve had a lot of bad moves by the FO recently. Therefore, I’ve had a lot of bad feelings about the team.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
by baetown415 on Jan 20, 2010 10:12 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
tl; dr
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
This is what sucks about the off-season
We focus on the FO, instead of the actual BASEBALL
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Plus
Sabean has showed me this past season that he’s willing to abandom his semblance of a plan for a chance to go for it… yet he has no idea how to really go for it.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
This.
How is this offseason’s use of FA money considered anything but, a full blown, balls out effort to remain mediocre and hedge against a 90 loss season? Look at the acquisitions. If Sabean was interested in trying to win a championship he would have at least attempted to sign Holiday and added a cheaper 2B like Carrol or Uribe rather than signing 3 6 million guys who have equal chance of sucking or being slightly above average.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
I meant to add
that the outrage is warranted.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
This is exactly the formula used to play "meaningful games in September"
“…hedge against a 90 loss season?”
That is “The Giants Way”. That was clearly established when Neukom extended Sabean and Bochy by 3 years. (or 2 years plus an option for the pickers of nits)
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
DIVIDENDS! Managing for the margins, appeasing a board of investors.
by Every6thDay on Jan 21, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Beware
The A’s stunk last year and are almost guaranteed to finish in last place this year, but the blog looks on things with a more even keel and is not afraid to voice optimism from time to time
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 20, 2010 10:22 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
"Statistical Dogmatism"
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the whole point of the scientific method and statistical analysis to draw conclusions independent of dogma, and in many cases is used to disprove it?
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
I think he’s talking about our devotion to statistics above other forms of evaluation. He’s right that we do use statistics more than anything, and sometimes to the exclusion of everything else, but he’s wrong when he says that’s a bad thing. In most cases, stats are the best way to evaluate and project a player.
We don’t like stats over other forms of analysis, though. We like stats WITH other forms of analysis. It’s only the people who reject stats entirely in favor of analysis that stats could be used to inform who try to suggest that we in any way try to eschew other forms of analysis.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 20, 2010 10:42 PM PST up reply actions
We do embrace other forms of analysis, but a lot of the time we only use stats because that’s about all we have to go on; that’s especially true with prospects, who we can have scouting reports on, but 95% of our data on them comes from numbers. I don’t think anyone here would use only stats given the presence of alternate, reliable data, but I do think we sometimes use only stats. He’s right about that, but he’s wrong about it being a problem, because there isn’t another option.
In most cases, stats are the best way to evaluate and project a player.
And of course, one of the big things is stats are much more useful for the general population. Someone like me who works in economics has a very strong grasp of statistical principles – so as long as I read the background on the stuff I understand it pretty thoroughly. I’m hardly a baseball scout, though – and while I develop my stat skills through school/work and other completely unrelated fields….being a baseball scout is something you can really only learn by….being a baseball scout. So there’s just a lot more statistical knowledge than baseball scouting knowlege in the fanbase, so we can do a lot more and make much better conclusions using stats. Also, they’re less prone to opinion – they’re actual records of things that happened, so they’re much stronger evidence.
Combine that with how readily available statistics are compared to scouting reports, and the fact that you have to actually watch the player a bunch of times to form a good scouting report as opposed to being able to easily check stats from every game they play….and it’s pretty easy to understand why stats are so popular. Simply put, they should be widely used, and while it’s great to supplement them with further analysis, we often don’t have that extra analysis….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:26 AM PST up reply actions
You’re assuming your fanbase is composed of people who can comprehend math. I for one can’t. Which is why all stats discussions lose me and why I don’t really pay attention to anything involving prospects. Whereas anybody can pretend to be able to judge another person by watching them for a while.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
I calculate you have a value above replacement poster of .9, but you also have swagger
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
Also, Grant rarely if ever cites any kind of advanced statistics in his analyses. And the statistical nerdheads nonetheless tend to agree with him.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 20, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions
Grant is an after-school daycare teacher
That’s exactly right, all the nerds agree with him almost always.
It reminds me of when I was five years old and Loma Prieta hit. I was working on a coloring book at my after-school daycare. When the building started to shake, two dozen kindergartners who had moments earlier been scattered around a double-wide portable classroom all tried to squeeze under the same table as the teacher. Was her table sturdier or more rugged than the ones we were coloring on? No. But it felt good to be on the same side as the person who ran the show.
That, and Grant can put my anger toward Sabean in neat little paragraphs that make me laugh. It’s not so bad really.
Here's to the Dodgers and their bucket of suck.
I call Grants basement when the big one comes
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
That’s the idea, however the interpretation of statistical data can become inflexible and dogmatic. For example, if player A has a higher WAR or wOBA than player B, that doesn’t necessarily mean player A is better. If you reject out-of-hand counterarguments based on other factors (e.g. scouting reports, personal observation), then that could be called “statistical dogmatism”. I don’t think that sort of thing goes on so much here, though, people seem receptive to well-reasoned arguments.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and... relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants?
Many years ago I was working on an internal video for the World Bank that was meant to spur internal debate on how to make the institution more effective, or failing that, less destructive. In the course of that project I had an interview at one point with Robert McNamara, who had been the World Bank’s President for over a decade — years which had unfortunately seen a lot of disastrous changes in most of the developing word. In particular, skyrocketing debt in Africa, and increasing poverty indexes.
McNamara’s stated goal at the Bank was poverty reduction and so we talked about why so many of the institution’s programs seemed to have backfired and created more inequity rather than less. At one point, after a long detailed explanation of the models he and his team had created for world poverty reduction, I asked him how their models had changed over the years as so many of the projects fell victim to the law of unintended consequences, and he said something that just flabbergasted me — he said “we never changed them. There was nothing wrong with the models. People just didn’t respond the way they were supposed to.” And because I couldn’t believe what he’d just said, I asked him again, “are you saying that when populations fail to behave the way models predict they will, that the people are to blame and not the models?” And he said “Absolutely.”
That, I submit, is statistical dogma. And it is a bit unnerving to me that through his connection with the Harvard Business School, Robert McNamara has cast a long shadow over modern statistical analysis education.
But I’d say the vast majority of our stat heads have the appropriate questioning spirit and have taught me much about the game I love, even if the math does remain a bit fuzzy to me at times.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jan 21, 2010 6:34 AM PST up reply actions 13 recs
Whoa. What an awesome response. Thank you for sharing!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
McNamara’s good at justifying himself… to himself.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Wow. If that isn’t a perfect parallel to my mental picture of Brian Sabean, I don’t know what is.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions
Stupid people! Why didn’t all those poor guys go to business school to behave right! God, how can you expect a guy to eliminate poverty when all those damned poor people are around!
Great comment Roger. I had a Professor in a statistics class (many,many years ago) relay a similar story, and then use the same data set to convey three different results.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
It really is amazing how people can be educated and understand enough to create these models, and simply not understand the basic common sense that goes into them. It seems to happen all the time. They just don’t have an actual fundamental idea of how to use the math properly (or maybe they do and simply forget to think about it), even if they get the details in how to do the math…
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:00 AM PST up reply actions
Wow
Now we know why the World Bank (and the IMF) have exacerbated, rather than helped, the developing world’s problems. Given this line of reasoning, Giant’s fans just didn’t act as they were supposed to when Horace Stoneham built that beautiful ballpark at Candlestick point.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Jan 21, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Well, aside from just that point, the World Bank and IMF are politically invested in rich country’s interests, which often conflict with the developing world’s interests….so yeah, conflict of interest means sometimes they’re really not even trying to help the developing world (even if they frame it like they are)….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Well, that definitely filters in at the board level, but my two cents on that topic would be that these are institutions filled with literally thousands of the best educated and best intentioned people in the world, and from virtually everywhere in the world. Which to my mind makes the moral even more depressing.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jan 21, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
So, Roger, you weren’t Robert McNamara’d into submission?
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
No, no. It was an interesting experience. He was quite polite and cordial, really. The funny thing was I think that was right around the time he wrote the book about Vietnam, or maybe he was in the process of writing it, where he “apologized,” and so he had this strange combination of both admitting failures and yet defying criticism at the same time. He could go from introspective to defiant within a sentence almost. Really quite odd.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Interesting
I interviewed William Colby, former CIA head, while in college in the late 70’s, and although I don’t remember the exact questions I asked, I definitely got a similar vibe from him. He was very certain that he had done the right thing in every circumstance. Very composed; almost an old-money confidence. It was a bit unsettling.
And that was a terrific anecdote. Right on the spot.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
While you were in college! Nice scoop. What was Colby doing at that point? He’d already been ousted in the Kissinger coup that put Bush in charge at the CIA, right?
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Colby
Yeah, it was about a year or so after he left The Company. I believe our college had invited him to speak at some function (they leaned rightward on social/political issues). Suprisingly, I found on Wikipedia that Colby wound up being a champion of openness for the CIA – relatively speaking, I presume. Not the complete right-winger I perceived him to be.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
He got born again in prison I think.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 27, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
International organizations like these are always going to be a step behind simply because of what they are. That particular factor is not the primary one.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
One of the best comments I've ever read here
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
I guess you could then call statistical dogmatism in baseball "The Fog of WAR."
Eh? Eh?
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice!
Although I may be the only here to agree with you.
Expect me to liberally use your phrase in the future, likely without attribution. I’ll apologize now for that.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
I don’t know how to break this to you, but Willie McCovey doesn’t actually run this place.
PS WE HAVE A NEW ORANGE JERSEY WE KNOW YOU’RE GONNA LOVE! BUY TEN!
by satyricrash on Jan 20, 2010 10:25 PM PST reply actions 7 recs
ok, I’m back…..I actually kinda get a bit of schadenfreude from the people who get really really riled up about things
Your bench player is our #5 hitter!!!
I kinda get s…sch… dafen… I get that way too
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:41 PM PST up reply actions
It’s pronounced “lah-fing at dah-jerz fahnz.”
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it's not like the site is called McCovey Chronicles or anything.
oh wait!
Kill yourself for your stupidity.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jan 21, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you saying this to satyricrash or world wide suicide?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
i obviously addressed it to the person I replied to.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jan 21, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
I’m not sure why you’re so hostile, but crash was making a “joke”.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I’m at work and I’m REALLY bored. And his comment rubbed me the wrong way and was so counter-intuitive, especially considering what post he was responding to.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jan 21, 2010 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
o ho ho! You got me!
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jan 21, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Employees licking company-owned monitors is prohibited in the employee manual very specifically. It is a fire-able offense
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
You must be really bored if you’re a Braves fan reading a meta post on a blog you don’t normally comment on!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
i joined this to talk about the “flying squirrels” when it was first announced. then i forgot about it. I only came here to see if you were gonna pay Lincecum or not and ended up here.
and yes, I am really bored.
Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!
by RichmondBraves on Jan 21, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Well, just for the record, the McCoven enjoys a large dose of irreverence in its baseball discussion and quips like the one ’crash made are fairly par for the course.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
“…bored if you’re a Braves fan”
That is overly redundant. Braves fans are why school paste jars are safety-sealed.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
And, just for the future,
please don’t tell people to kill themselves. :)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
lol......thats so funny, when you like at it out of context
please don’t tell people to kill themselves. :)
What's the matter with Sabean?!?!? He's a bum!
by The Montana Giant on Jan 21, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
heh
So perhaps he should have used the entire name. Or if he really had been lurking for a while, he would know that to address the collective, a person uses McCoven.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, that caught me off guard too. I thought maybe the restaurant had taken his favorite dish off the menu or something.
Or completely forgot the reservation he made for 14 people…ahem.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Did it ever occur to you that it could mean Chronicles of McCovey rather than McCovey’s Chronicles?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I’m sorry, I’m too dumb to kill myself. Demonstrate!
PS WE HAVE A NEW ORANGE JERSEY WE KNOW YOU’RE GONNA LOVE! BUY TEN!
by satyricrash on Jan 21, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
The next person to suggest that somebody either die or kill themselves who isn’t trying to be a jackass by responding to this comment is seriously getting banned.
WTELF is this? Two in two days? From two different people?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
Are you referring to the one on the main page from this morning.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Jan 21, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Somebody told Grant he should die. It was dumb.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
Ah, yes I commented to him, i think. northbay?
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Jan 21, 2010 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
yeah
he’s too busy fishing in his cove. Once in a while he meets Willie Mays at his hot dog stand and they walk over to visit Cepeda in his kitchen.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 22, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, the Giants were 88-74 last year, and yes, that was a very pleasant surprise. But excuse us for not jumping up and down about it; personally, I’m in this for a World Series title, and every time the Giants do something that makes me think they’re moving away from that and not towards it, I get pissed off (especially when they do incredibly stupid things).
I was and am extremely happy about the Giants finishing 2009 with the record they did, but it’s over now, and the offseason is about next year and improvement, not last year. And there’s not a lot to be happy about next year; we’ve decided to sign a bunch of mediocre veterans to reasonable contracts, and none of them really make our team better. They’re marginal upgrades, which are fine with a team that’s already good, but this team is not good offensively, and getting an extra 0.5 WAR out of each position isn’t how you take a bottom-of-the-barrel team and make it a competitor. Add in the regression we’re due for next year, and I don’t see another 2009 coming our way; .500 is a more realistic outlook.
So after an offseason of poor decisions and the likelihood that we’ll be worse next year than we were last year (which isn’t really the goal of the game), excuse me for being a little pessimistic about the direction this team is headed. We could dwell on last year ad infinitum, but we could also dwell on 2002 or 1993, which were both better years with regard to team performance. 2009 is done, 2010 isn’t, and it doesn’t look good.
by quincy0191 on Jan 20, 2010 10:38 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
this sums it up well
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 20, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Let’s also mention that there’s a lot of pretty sound research out there that indicates we were lucky to win 88 games last year. Which is great, I enjoy being lucky. The important thing, though, is that we can’t count on that luck in the future.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
Add in the regression we’re due for next year, and I don’t see another 2009 coming our way; .500 is a more realistic outlook.
Eh, we’re probably an ~85 win team. I mean, I don’t like what we’ve done, but in some cases, it did make us better (just not very much better).
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I think we’ll finish above .500, but I was saying that .500 is more realistic than 88-74. And I quoted myself to point out that I did mention luck.
Blind optimism, while maybe not a learned outlook, still feels better.
You may recognize this in its more popular form – “Ignorance is bliss”.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:32 AM PST up reply actions
I Just Don't Get This Thinking.
How can so many people that seem to claim to understand statistics actually believe a lucky year means the next year is “due” to regress. It just does not matter at all how many times in a row you flip a coin and it comes up heads to the odds of it being tails the next time you flip it.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
Well, the coin flip isn’t exactly accurate.
A coin flip has two possible outcomes that have roughly equal chances of happening. So the 50/50 thing works fine there.
Warning: arbitrary numbers follow.
A player has a certain chance of living up to his career averages (let’s say 75%), a certain chance of repeating a career year and exceeding his career averages (let’s say 12.5%), and a certain chance of doing worse than ever before (let’s say 12.5%). It’s not the same for every player, but you’re most likely to play the same way you usually do. So in this scenario, you’re flipping a 3-sided coin that has a 75% chance of coming up heads. I would bet on heads every time with that coin.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
But In This Case They Are Betting On The Other 12.5% And Not On The 75%.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
Not a good bet.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
I’m a little unclear on what we’re arguing about, so I’ll just put out some simple framework. If one year you’re lucky, it means you’re playing above your expected output. Now, there are times when we don’t know for sure if you’re lucky or not, but I’m not going to go into that now. It’s not that you’re “due” for bad luck next time, it’s that we expect neutral luck (because thats’ the “expected amount of luck”) next year, which is less than “good luck”. So using a coin as an example, if you flip heads 7 out of 10 times, heads was lucky. Next year we obviously bet on you flipping heads 5 out of 10 times, because that’s the true average, which is less than 7. We don’t expect any bad luck to cancel out the good luck, we just guess we’ll turn back to the “normal” amount of luck.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Say a lucky year = 6 flips in a row landing heads
The most likely outcome for the next 6 flips is 3 heads, 3 tails. That’s regression, and you’re “due” for it in the sense that you can’t expect to keep flipping heads forever.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Short take: being 88-74 last year just means now is NOT the time to fuck things up.
Every decision the Giants have made is that much more important, because it could mean the difference between playoffs and a severe regression to the meh.
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
Seriously thank you
I’ve often shared these sentiments over the past couple weeks as well.
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
NO WAY I HATE BASEBALL GRR
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I convinced myself Sabean had a plan after the Huff signing. I give up now.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 20, 2010 10:50 PM PST reply actions
I said this to the guy who took my ipod and wallet last week
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
Man, I wish I could’ve talked to the guy who took my iPod last week. I probably would’ve gotten my ass kicked, but at least I would’ve gotten an explanation for why he smashed my car window when the door was unlocked.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I got my window smashed and they didn’t even take anything. Maybe a couple of quarters in the cupholder, maybe not, I don’t even know because anything they took was that unimportant and not valuable. Didn’t take my nav system, mind you (maybe they didn’t find it?)….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, that happened to me too. I never leave anything in my car, and I even leave the doors unlocked so people won’t break my windows. Didn’t help. I guess it’s too optimistic to expect the kind of guy who goes around trying to steal stuff out of cars to be bright enough to check the doors before he breaks the window.
Maybe they were just fucking shit up and not stealing.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 21, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t write often on this blog, but I read it everyday. I found a number of the writers two or three years ago (in the old format) would criticize the F.O. and would do it with humor and imagination so much so they would have me laughing for days later. I couldn’t wait to read their next installments.
More recently some of the comments, not all, but enough that one would notice, like the writer who started this post, lack imagination, silly and childish and sometimes downright mean. I love Baseball and have followed the Giants longer than I care to admit. But using foul language and constant harping on the F.O. seems meaningless when you don’t have a solution. Just saying sign a ballplayer here make a trade there without being specific is rather shallow and… not very funny!
by Buzzword on Jan 20, 2010 11:01 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
like the writer who started this post
Which one? I can’t tell if you’re talking about the fanpost’s author or one of the commenters.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
I totally understand where you’re coming from and I am probably guilty of a lot of what you’re saying. However, a lot of people do bring up a solution and it’s quite simple. Do nothing. Play the kids. It’s cheap and probably wouldn’t make the team substantially worse.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I would have been for this as well, but Sabean is trying to ensure he gets another contract. Bowtie expects a playoff team this year, and if Sabean had done nothing, and we didn’t make the playoffs, he would have been gone. Now, if we don’t make the playoffs, he can argue he signed veterans who didn’t play up to expectations.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Jan 21, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
I think a lot of us are specific on the moves we’d like the FO to make, and the direction we’d like the team to go, and we’re providing plenty of solutions which are easily more logical than what the Giants are actually doing. So I have no problems with people getting pissed at the FO when they’re doing insanely stupid things like re-signing Molina.
Holliday! Matt Holliday! Give me a Holliday! All I want for Christmas is a Holliday!
(So yeah, I think I do give alternative solutions, only gonna speak for myself)
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:03 AM PST up reply actions
+1 on this post. I do enjoy this site and most of the well deserved criticism of front office moves. But it seems like it has come to a point where if someone posts anything positive they get ripped by everyone in the comments… and, consequently the positive posts/thoughts come few and far between.
That being said, I can’t stand the Molina signing. Free Posey.
I'm a man
A victim of our own success
People coming in here late, not knowing the environment, and wants to “change” this place to fit their image of what a wonderful corner of the internet should be.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
-109
These pretzels are making me thirsty
by NuschlerFace on Jan 21, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
you win, just share with us this: how do u make an infinity sign?
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
You can go to the Character Map under Accessories in the start menu and copypasta from there.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
COPYPASTA!
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Jan 22, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
I was horrified to realize recently that “Al Dente” does not mean “firm, yet tender”. It doesn’t really mean anything close to that, except in a very loose, very idiomatic sort of way. I was even more horrified to realize that I believed it translated cleanly to “firm, yet tender” for many, many years without question.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 22, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
What the HECK is THIS?
BTW, thanks.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2010 10:52 PM PST up reply actions
۞
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Oh. Well, if you must.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:29 AM PST up reply actions
Long offseason is long
I just want baseball to start.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
by heimy25 on Jan 20, 2010 11:15 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah this is the real problem
And we’re still deep in the doldrums of the offseason.
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
by stealth snail on Jan 20, 2010 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t remember the last time Sabean or the Giants made a wise move or even one that couldn’t be ridiculed.
That’s kind of the problem, isn’t it?
It’s been a pretty bleak offseason. With that having been said, this type of post seems to crop up every six months or so, and I don’t see much difference between the pessimism now, the pessimism in 2008, the pessimism in 2007, etc.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
No matter what moves are made, people will and do complain anyways. I am going to at least try to save my complaining for when the season actually starts and we see how the moves pan out
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
we see how the moves pan out
That’s a problem, though. Judging success based on results alone (given a small sample of results) doesn’t give you a whole lot of information. Much better to judge the process.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:31 AM PST up reply actions
Well, except we don’t know the whole story on the process. For example, I fully expect Huff to be a disaster, based on his age and last five years’ performance. But Sabean seems quite confident. (When doesn’t he?) But suppose Huff actually duplicates his 2008 — great success! Then there are too possibilities: either Sabean ignored statistical analysis and got lucky, or he had more information than we have access to. Maybe he knows Huff was injured last season and their scouts and medical staff are convinced a rebound is imminent.
Certainly my belief is that if Huff turns out to be good that it will have been dumb luck, because we’ve seen plenty of these types of signings over the past few years that turned out poorly, so there’s not a lot of historical support for the “superior information” theory. But we actually don’t have any way of knowing for sure.
True, and we can only judge to the best of our ability, which will always be at a big information disadvantage. No doubt. If a trend starts where guys over/under perform, though, we can start to figure out that they really are better/worse than we thought. Unfortunately, with Sabean, he has a long enough history and an obvious enough trend that we can pretty much assume his information isn’t making up for his poor process. :(
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
and if you think there's too much negativity
I’d recommend checking out the community prospects threads. Well, there’s some negativity about prospects some people don’t consider worthy getting votes, but mostly, there’s a lot of optimism about the state of the farm system and some of the really interesting players coming up through the system.
I think the McCoven are, generally, quite willing to praise Sabean and the rest of the front office when he/they deserve it. Lately, that’s mostly happened in the draft and in the farm system.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Thats why I for the most part don’t have a huge problem with the moves that were made this offseason. Short term deals and the big time prospects aren’t really being blocked right now (Posey up for debate)
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
For me, it’s not about blocking prospects, but the fact that we paid about $20M for maybe 2-3 extra wins; the guys that would have played had we signed no one are for the most part not much worse than the guys that replaced them. Cost-efficiency is the hallmark of a contender.
They efficiently spend their money by signing good players.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jan 21, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
and average players and bad players and, well, pretty much any player they want.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I feel like people were fairly optimistic and positive last offseason. The Affeldt signing got credit and most people liked the RJ signing as well.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yeah, I meant the pessimism during the 2008 season, really.
A lot of people defended the Renteria signing, at least half-heartedly, against all the stuff about how it was the worst signing of the year, too. whee.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I even managed to convince myself that the Renteria signing wasn’t too bad at the time, tbh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yeah
I thought “2 years isn’t so bad and he could rebound since he’s back in the NL.”
The baseball Satanist
I really am sorry that you don’t like the atmosphere here, but I’m not the sort of person who can sit around and pretend everything is okay if I don’t think everything is okay.
Perhaps, though, Grant should make an open THINGS WE LOVE ABOUT THE GIANTS thread sometime soon, so we can show that, yes, there really are things we love about the team. Because I could talk for hours about how much I love Sergio Romo.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
by jponry on Jan 20, 2010 11:24 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Closer Material.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 20, 2010 11:26 PM PST up reply actions
Now, the Sergio Romo accidental DFA thing – that really did turn out to be a freakout over nothing.
Although it was still pretty dumb to send down Romo and Matos for Sadler and Yabu, come to think of it.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Yes, it was!
Romo had been awesome and then had two bad outings in a row and they sent him down! I raged! But it all turned out okay in the end when everyone realized how wonderful Sergio Romo is.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
It was really only one bad outing
Last two games before he was sent down:
1.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 1 SO, Win
1.0 IP, 4 H, 5 R, 4 ER, 0 BB, 0 SO
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
He’s not my favorite Giant because, come on, TimMattPablo, but oh gosh, he might be the dreamiest current Giant.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Balding
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
HOW DARE YOU
PREMATURE RECEDING HAIRLINE PRIDE!!!!!!!!!!!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I look at it this way
Most moves in baseball actually aren’t great. There’s a reason why it’s hard to consistently win in the majors. Major league baseball is an extremely competitive environment (amongst the ballclubs, amongst the players, amongst the agents). Every single organization out there makes bad moves. This is because bad moves are easy to make in the MLB environment.
Ergo, most moves have room to be criticized. This will be especially true when someone like Brian Sabean is running the organization.
The off-season is a time when the moves an organization makes are going to be dissected more often than during the season. This is because the moves an organization makes are the only thing we CAN talk about. So when those moves aren’t so hot, they will be criticized.
I don’t really think I needed to ramble on about that. But now that I’ve typed it all out, I don’t want to simply delete it. So I’m going to post it anyway.
The baseball Satanist
another thing, I think
Sabean’s been around since 1997. A lot of us have been Giants fans that long or (sometimes much) longer. And a lot of us have been irritated with him since at least 2003. After so many years, it’s inevitable that frustration is going to boil over and go apeshit from time to time. Having a fundamentally different philosophy than your team’s front office is pretty frustrating. Especially when the results have been terrible 4 of the last 5 years.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I think the last 2-3 have been pretty good
We’ve definitely done some rebuildin’
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
by stealth snail on Jan 20, 2010 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
I like a lot of the things the Giants have done in terms of the rebuild, but I remain skeptical that they’re willing to go through with it (i.e. play the young guys they develop.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
yeah
Also, they started to rebuild about 3-4 years after they should’ve. Water under the bridge, I guess. But it was really frustrating.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Magowan.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I can’t really get behind the line of thinking that blames Magowan for all of the Giants issues and gives Sabean a pass. Magowan is long-gone and the team is still being run similarly (though the farm system is obviously much, much better.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Well yeah thats why hoping the short term contracts mean our minor league dudes step the hell up to come into bigger roles in 2011, 2012 and beyond
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
The trouble is that they’ve been using this short term contract to bridge the gap to the younger dude strategy for awhile now. I think it’s fair for me to say that I’ll believe they give young guys (other than Pablo) a chance when I see it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
It's completely fair
seeing as how they’ve NEVER given ANY young position prospect a fair chance.
Don’t point to Sandoval, either, because I would bet that if Sandoval hadn’t hit .340 during his call up in 08, he would have been benched or sent back down when he struggled to begin the 09 season.
The baseball Satanist
Well, the thing is I guess you can debate if the Giants are stunting growth of young guys, or if we really haven’t had any young successful guys minus Panda. Its not like our guys are making it big for other clubs who didn’t get a chance in SF
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Of course they are going to be right more often than not
Most prospects fail. That doesn’t mean we should guarantee that they fail.
The baseball Satanist
Our young guys aren’t particularly good, I do believe the Giants are right in their evaluations of them in that regard. What bothers me is often they aren’t worse than the veterans who suck that we’re paying way more money to. Than when we get a guy who actually deserves to start (Lewis), he gets run out of the organization and replaced by guys who suck (Velez) while we go out and spend money on veterans who are….pretty close to as good as Fred Lewis….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I guess I just personally haven’t been overly excited with anyone really who hasn’t been getting a fair chance.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
It becomes a neverending cycle though. There’s always some excuse for why they can’t play this particular position player prospect. And so far, yeah, it hasn’t really come back to bite the Giants too bad. But I’m hoping they give guys like Posey, Neal, Crawford, etc a longer leash than they’ve given the others so far. (Early returns are not good but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt on Posey… for now.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Well, Neal just completed a ridiculous A+ season at the age of 21 where he hit 22 homeruns and OPS’d 1.010. At 21 years old, Bowker was also in A+… OPSing .733 with 13 homeruns.
I guess the short answer is that at the same age and the same level, Neal performed way better than Bowker.
Of course, Neal is still a much, much bigger question mark. But even with a cursory glance at their careers I can see why he’s considered more promising.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 12:03 AM PST up reply actions
The Giants have certainly had hitting prospects in the past who were as well thought of as Neal and Crawford though. I mean, most of the prospecting community is not nearly as enamored of Crawford as we are. The same probably goes for Neal, though he’s gotten positive attention. But it’s worth remembering that the Giants have had hitting prospects in that B to B- range before.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Sure thats why I just don’t understand if the Giants just can’t develop these guys or what the deal is there
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
It's just intersting to me to see the difference
between how young position players are treated compared with how young pitchers are treated. The only pitcher that I can think of in the Giants organization who has been treated poorly has been Jonathan Sanchez. And he has gotten plenty of chances, at least.
The baseball Satanist
I really, really don’t think it helps that players are given such a short leash when they’re called up. And then you hear Sabean say things like, “We’ve learned we can’t really trust Fresno statistics” (which I assume based on poor major league performance) and then in same breath say something like, “There is an adjustment period between the minors and the majors” and I just wonder what the heck is going on in there.
I mean:
a. they didn’t realize you had to adjust PCL stats before?
b. they know that there’s an adjustment phase between the majors and minors, yet they rarely let players go through it unless they’ve started strong out the gate?
c. they know there’s an adjustment phase and yet they take a player’s first 30 AB in the majors as evidence of their true talent?
and so on.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Yeah who knows. Just if a guy has the real talent to be a big leaguer, has a short leash with the Giants and gets released or whatever, you’d think another team would still be able to turn that talent still into the player he should have been
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
The position players on the Giants don’t really get a short leash though, so much as they seem to spend the better part of 2-3 years getting called up, given random stretches of 50 AB or so, getting benched, getting sent down, spending two years in a row in Fresno, etc etc. before they are finally released.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
This, jponry
is the crux of the problem, I believe.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
What Is Your Solution?
By what appears to me to be the McCoven’s definition of a reasonable shot (large enough sample size) the Giants have to risk punting a season if the player fails. Teams trying to make the playoffs don’t (and shouldn’t) do this. They Giants are not using stats to make these player evaluations then are looking at his mechanics and mental approach. When you scout these you don’t need nearly as large a sample size to make a reasonable determination of the players true current MLB ready talent level.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
Well, they already risk punting a season when they play vets the whole year despite their failings… ??
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
So
You think the Giants would have been better off playing Frandsen, Downs, or Rohlinger last year instead of Renteria?
I am not buying this.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t know if any of those guys can really fake shortstop, so I dunno about them specifically, but it’s not like Renteria had a high level of performance to best. I mean, he was barely above replacement level. 0.3 WAR last year. It just wouldn’t have taken very much to best that.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
They definitely could have pulled the plug on Winn sometime in July, that’s for sure. If there’s one thing the Giants have in abundance, it’s slightly above replacement level outfielders.
Randy Winn Produced 1.7 WAR Last Year
You are only looking at offense and ignoring defense.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
Except if they’d just gone with Schierholtz the defense would have been almost as good. He probably wouldn’t hit any better than Winn, but he might, and the club would know whether he was likely to be better than a fourth outfielder. He might have a future with the organization. Winn clearly did not.
That Is Not A Move A Contending Team Makes
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
You obviously wouldn’t bench a good veteran, but why would you be shy about sitting a guy who’s stinking it up? You’re trying to win, not assuage some guys hurt feelings. I have seriously never heard the argument that a contender would not bench a guy who sucks.
I am still very curious for more data to see if something about AT&T’s RF breaks UZR. There’s a lot of conflicting evidence with Winn…
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2010 8:46 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
What defensive metric doesn’t like him?
by giantsrainman on Jan 27, 2010 12:32 AM PST up reply actions
3.0 UZR/150 in over 3000 innings in LF, -1.3 UZR/150 in 5600+ innings in CF…basically outside of playing RF in AT&T UZR hasn’t been too impressed by his defense. I’m not going to say somethings wrong with UZR right now, I do not know that it is, but I am at least noting it as something worth looking into in the future.
Just for the record, if you objectively look at his collective UZR totals, he’s averaged 9.7 UZR/150 for his career for a corner outfield (I added +10 to his CF UZR to account for the positional adjustment, and then took a weighted average, by innings, of the 3 fields).
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2010 7:18 AM PST up reply actions
Hmmm….looking back on it, it seems my calculation is going to be a little off (it’s unclear how off it will be or what direction it’s off) – the innings totals include innings without a UZR measurement, so that will wrongly affect the weights. I’m not going to correct it, too much effort. Anyways, I think it’s at least in the ballpark so it doesn’t change the general concept.
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2010 7:23 AM PST up reply actions
Speaking of Winn
Any teams showing interest in Randy?
Seasons will pass you by. I get up, I get down.
In Sabean’s defense (and I hate doing that), I really do believe he’s on a mandate to field a competitive team every year. Which is why he doesn’t give prospects time. My evidence is the 2 year extension he got after getting back to above .500. Imagine if the Giants finished 76-86 this year and attendance dipped a bit. BUT we realized what we have in players like Velez, Frandsen, Flew, Bowker, Nate, etc. Do you really think the front office would deem that a successful season? I think they would have given him the boot.
God I feel dirty.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Agreed. Sabean is trying to save his job. Bowtie’s short-term, quarterly profits thinking demands results now.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Jan 21, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
But Bowtie’s a smart guy. He must know that there are long term investments that yield greater profits, ie. Posey. Why are we one of only about 5 teams with this proposed mandate?
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:50 PM PST up reply actions
The transformation of the farm system started in Magowan’s reign, though – 2007-2008 drafts, plus the signing of Villalona (whee).
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Also
HOLY SHIT IT’S ALMOST 3 AM AND I’M TALKING ABOUT THE FUCKING GIANTS.
Of course, I’m up because I can’t sleep, not because I had a desperate, burning desire to talk about the Giants in the middle of the night, but still: I have too much of an emotional commiment to this team.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I still would’ve liked to have seen what they could have gotten for Schmidt, Durham, etc. in 06.
You know, instead of trading for some mediocre non-upgrade.
The baseball Satanist
Nope. The process is what matters. We can analyze the process just as well now as we can later.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:36 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah I don’t get the “wait and see” approach. If that’s the case, what are we supposed to discuss in the offseason?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Its not the signings-it's what they represent
The Uribe signing represents that a guy who’s uncle used to play for the Giants and who had a career year, but isn’t likely to repeat it should be played over 2 guys (Frandsen and Rohlinger) who are ML Ready utility guys.
The DeRosa signing was Sabes getting another “big name” to come to SF-similar to the Rowand signing.
The Molina signing represents that he is unwilling to give young guys a chance.
The Huff signing represents that Sabean thinks that a guy who was good once can be good again.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
You know what?
Since you asked for it, here’s my optimism.
The Giants have the best pitcher in baseball, who’s also a likable, goofy guy.
Pablo Sandoval is awesome! Also, he’s a likable, goofy guy.
Matt Cain is awesome! Also, he’s a likable, romantic-comedy watching guy.
Jonathan Sanchez has lots of potential that he has almost fulfilled. Also, he throws no-hitters in front of his dad.
Brian Wilson has really come into his own. Also, he’s a…goofy guy.
Sergio Romo has already been covered.
Affeldt was a nice find.
Bowker and Schierholtz still have potential. Too bad neither will really get a chance. Wait, sorry, optimism.
Bumgarner is one of the top prospects in all of baseball. Also, he’s a goofy looking guy.
Posey!
There. Happy?
The baseball Satanist
by thehavenot on Jan 20, 2010 11:45 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
:[
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Reminds me SO much of Shia Lebouf in this pic.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
BANNED
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
He looks like he's concentrating on looking a certain way
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
bad names for pitchers
Bob Walk
Homer Bailey
The best name for a pitcher, of course, was Early Wynn. Especially since that was his REAL NAME, not a nickname.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I still like Randy Johnson.
It’s an adjective before a noun.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:52 PM PST up reply actions
favorite names in the organization
Sharlon Schoop
Chris Gloor
Skyler Stromsmoe
Roger Kieschnick (though Brooks Kieschnick was a better name)
Oliver Odle
Nestor Rojas
Vladimir Frias
Juan Carlos Perez
Kaohi Downing
Too bad they didn’t sign Diego Seastrunk or Randolph Oduber, though.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
This seems to be minor leaguers only, but Tim Lincecum is a pretty awesome name too
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I love Eugenio Velez’s name (and nothing else about him). Sergio Romo is pretty sweet, too.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I know I've mentioned this before, more than once
But my favorite name in all of baseball: Sequoyah Stonecipher. Fucking awesome.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
okay, now that I'm off on this tangent
Favorite baseball names from the past:
Rance Mulliniks
F.P. Santangelo
Oil Can Boyd
Herm Winningham
Tsuyoshi Shinjo
Pete Incaviglia
Damon Berryhill
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
and more
Rusty Staubb
Carlton Fisk
William Van Landingham
Alejandro Freire
Stubby Clapp
Mordecai “Three Finger” Brown
Grover Cleveland Alexander
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
one more
Steve Soderstrom
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I don’t enjoy his movies.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 21, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Rusty Kuntz
I finished Only the Ball was White and there are some great Negro League player names
Turkey Stearnes
Satchel Paige
Smokey Joe Williams
Cristobal Torriente
Martin Dihigo (I think that one is real badass)
COOL PAPA BELL
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I'm also partial to
Arky Vaughan
Harmon Killebrew
Enos Slaughter
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Boog Powell is another good one.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Honus Wagner
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Al Kaline
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 21, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
and looking at the list of Negro Leagues Hall of Famers
Bullet Joe Rogan
Biz Mackey
Effa Manley
Mule Suttles
And then there’s….Cum Posey. Huh. Okay.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I think ’Cum-Posey is our battery of the future. Or the now.
I think we’d all prefer the now.
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
If by ‘now’ you mean ‘later this summer’.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Feb 1, 2010 6:56 PM PST up reply actions
HULK WANT BASEBALL NOW!!!!
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 8:02 PM PST up reply actions
Mets players
Marvelous Marv Throneberry
Mookie Wilson
Ron Swoboda
I was always amused by the combination of Mookie Wilson and Preston Wilson
Two ballplayers from the same family, but their first names couldn’t be more different.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Interesting note that many or all you will already know: Pearl Jam wanted to name the band Mookie Blaylock as a tribute to their favorite basketball player, and their album Ten is a reference to his uniform number.
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
Old timey names are a gold mine
Just looking at Nap Lajoie’s 1909 team-mates, I came up with:
Wilbur good
Bris Lord
Elmer Flick
Nig Clarke
Duke Reilly
Dolly Stark
Milo Netzel
Walt Doan
Grover Land
Heinie Berger
Addie Joss
Cy Falkenburg
Harry Ables
Jerry Upp
Lucky Wright
Red Booles
The baseball Satanist
Cap Anson
Cy Young
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Joe Iron Man McGinnity
Smokey Joe Wood
Eddie Stanky
WILLIAM VANLANDINGHAM
Mickey Morandini
Steve Scarsone
and the nickname that first caught my attention:
Chili Davis
“Merkle’s Boner” Heh. Too soon?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Urban Shocker
Adopted Giant: Clayton Tanner
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jan 21, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
Is that what the kids call it nowdays? I remember the good old days of suburban shockers.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
Archi Cianfrocco
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
by stealth snail on Jan 21, 2010 12:16 AM PST up reply actions
I KNOW!
He is made of awesome.
Although he didn’t do to well in short season ball. GIVE HIM MORE CHANCES, MARLINS BRASS!!!
Side-note: Stonecipher was drafted last year in the 14th round. That round was lousy with great names. Aside from Stonecipher himself:
Naoya Washiya
Adam Neulubowich
Timothy Crabbe
Crawford Simmons
Chadwick Bell
Casio Grider
Graham Stoneburner
Zach Quate
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I wanna hear this read in a depression-era radio accent:
Madison Bumgarner squares off against Graham Stoneburner!
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Eugenio Velez is a fantastic name.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
can't forget
all time great name…. Dick Pole
Dickie Thon
"Forget it Donny, you're out of your element"-Walter Sobchak
by icanplaythird on Jan 21, 2010 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve always liked the way Erubiel Durazo rolls off the tongue.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Good call
I always liked him as a hitter, too.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
ditto, he won me games when I played the demo of some game with the dbacks vs yankees
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:56 PM PST up reply actions
my real favorite ?
detroit lion harry colon
How can you have a list like this and not include Sundrendy Windster?!?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 21, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
worst/ best athlete names ever
- Former Quebec goalie Ron Tugnutt
- Olympic freestyle skier Assol Slivets
- Florida State receiver De’Cody Fagg
- Russian figure skater Irina Slutskaya
- Chicago Bears legend Dick Butkus
- Olympic basketball player Gregor Fucka
- Former University of San Francisco standout Chubby Cox
- Former MLB outfielder Johnny Dickshot
- Olympic swimmer Misty Hyman
- Eastern Illinois linebacker Lucious Pusey
- Former NFL free safety Harry Colon
- Former MLB utility player Pete LaCock
- Former Minnesota Twins outfielder Rusty Kuntz
Les Plack = more chicks
Dingerz.exe League Champs 2009- The Rile Rods...managed by yours truly.
by Headhunter Rollins on Jan 22, 2010 8:27 AM PST up reply actions
Also, I like the Santiago Casilla signing.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Semi-postives about Molina signing
Okay, I’ll dig deep down and try to find some silver lining.
1. It’s a one year deal, $4.5 mil. Jason Kendall and Ivan Rodriguez both got 2 /$6 mil. Sure, Dayton Moore might be worse than Sabean but Jon Daniels is not a moron. The Texas situation actually might shed some light as to why these veteran catchers seem to always get jobs somewhere. Texas last year went with Salty/Teagarden combo of young catchers and apparently the FO thought that was not a complete success and that they needed a veteran catcher to help a young but talented pitching staff get them into the playoffs. So the value of a veteran catcher to a pitching staff might be more than just outdated baseball CW, but something invaluable, and perhaps something of an enigma for us fans because it’s intangible and not as neatly calculable as WAR and VORP and wOBA. I think we fans need to be a bit humble here and acknowledge that we don’t know this value as well as people who are intimately invovled in MLB decision-making.
2. Molina was signed on Sabean’s terms. Even after not being offered arbitration, Molina essentially came begging for a job. That being said, I think Sabean’s thought process was less analytical than most here would’ve liked: “we can sign Barajas for $3 mil or Yorvit for $3.5 mil. Benjie’s twice as good as they are, so we’re getting a bargain!”
Anyway, Benjie batting 7th and “creating” 30-40 ribbies with his dingerz is okay with me.
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
I know, I called him Benjie. ?&#$@
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
by tellusfrank on Jan 21, 2010 12:56 AM PST up reply actions
heh this
I think we fans need to be a bit humble here and acknowledge that we don’t know this value as well as people who are intimately invovled in MLB decision-making.
can probably be said about many more things than just this situation
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
There are undoubtedly many, many things that Brian Sabean knows about baseball and running a baseball team that I never will. On the other hand, I knew that things like the Zito contract, the Rowand contract, signing Neifi, and the Pierzynski trade were idiotic from the moment they happened. So maybe neither he nor I really knows what they’re talking about.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Bullshit!
It is pure bullshit for anyone to claim they knew then that trading a young relief pitcher coming off of his first good year and two then not top tier starting pitching prospects for the three arbitration years of a left handed near .300 hitting starting catcher was idiotic.
by giantsrainman on Jan 21, 2010 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
If you really want me to
I can probably dig up a link for you where I freaked out the day that trade happened. It wasn’t on MCC (probably because it didn’t exist yet), but I bet it’s still out there.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Here
jcb9
2003-11-14 02:17 pm (local) (link)
I don’t know. I like Pierzynski as much as anyone, but I think Torrealba would’ve been a perfectly good catcher. And they gave up way too much. Without Joe Nathan, the bullpen will be really, really thin if Worrell leaves and Nen doesn’t return to pre-injury form. Plus, both of the minor leaguers they gave up were good prospects. Liriano has had a lot of injury problems, but he also has a lot of potential, and Bonser was one of the best young arms in the system.
(Reply to this) (Thread)
Later, response to someone defending the trade:
Re: Well..
jcb9
2003-11-14 04:50 pm (local) (link)
True. And Pierzynski is a couple years younger than I realized. I don’t have anything against trading for him – I’m just afraid they gave up too much.
(Reply to this) (Parent)
http://community.livejournal.com/sfgiantsfans/49564.html
None of the wording is as strong as “idiotic,” but yeah, I didn’t like the trade at all. Despite the fact that I was giving A.J. more credit than it turned out he deserved.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Yeah. Imagine if we had done that, and had just traded him for 80% of what we gave up for him. That would have been so much better.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Yeah, but don’t you freak out over every decision the Giants management makes? Want to impress me – find a decision that you LIKED and turned out well.
/sub-set zero within zero value set
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
Oh, there are plenty:
Joe Carter trade (very controversial at the time!)
Jason Schmidt trade
Robb Nen trade
Jeremy Affeldt signing
Ray Durham signing
There are also ones I liked that went bad – I’ve already admitted to liking the Benitez and Alfonzo signings when they happened.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I also LOVED the Moises Alou signing
How well that turned out is a matter of debate, I suppose.
Stuff I freaked out about that turned out fine: Randy Winn trade, for one.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
My favorite move ever was the Ellis Burks trade. I was living in Boston when he first came up and I’d always been a huge fan of his. I also really liked both the Durham and, gulp, Alfonzo signings.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Yeah, that was awesome.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I liked Moistness. A lot!
Pretty much for the same cherrypicking reason I liked J.T….I choose to remember the hits.
Dude was a .300 hitter fo’ sho’ ! Just a little too much porcelain.
I also remember the look of disgust on his face when he went up for that fly ball…and Steve Bartman made himself known.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:38 AM PST up reply actions
i didnt like the barry bonds singing at the time..heres proof
headhunter rollins
1992-11-14 04:50 pm (local) (link)
i dont like the barry bonds signing
(Reply to this) (Parent)
Les Plack = more chicks
Dingerz.exe League Champs 2009- The Rile Rods...managed by yours truly.
by Headhunter Rollins on Jan 22, 2010 8:33 AM PST up reply actions
I thought Barry Bonds was a judge in that contest. I’m pretty sure he didn’t do any singing.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 22, 2010 8:37 AM PST up reply actions
damn you walt whitman!
just post a weird pic of yourself next time and leave my typing skills alone
Les Plack = more chicks
Dingerz.exe League Champs 2009- The Rile Rods...managed by yours truly.
by Headhunter Rollins on Jan 22, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
I was actually hoping somebody would post the Bonds as American Idol judge pic. Oh well.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 22, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
Ask and ye shall receive
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
You can throw a tantrum about it all you want GRM, but
I and others did, in fact, hate the trade at the time. I had no idea who Boof Bonser and Francisco Liriano were, either.
The baseball Satanist
Cue the country squire beating the dead horse...
Sorry to keep dredging this up, but Robb Nen did.
Seasons will pass you by. I get up, I get down.
Very well said
I use to enjoy different people’s perspective, but recently the way some of these comments have come off is obnoxious to a certain degree. It’s like everyone read “Moneyball” and treat statistics like it’s the end all to every discussion. The sarcasm and shear obnoxious attitude of some of these “fans” have put me off also. I hope the Giants get into the playoffs and stick it up the ass to these so called fans of the team.
Focusing on what players actually do..
..which is basically what statistics are – a record of what you do – should kind of BE the end all to every discussion, no?
While past performance is not a 100% guarantee of future performance, it is a lot better than seeing a guy 30 times a year from your TV.
/auto-defenestrates
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Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 21, 2010 1:25 AM PST up reply actions
True, but the stats tell us more about what his future performance will be like.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Not necessarily true
The Giants finished near the bottom of every offensive category last year, but still finished with 88 wins so in short, even though statistics is a good way to evaluate a team, it is not the only component of evaluating a team.
Keep digging.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 21, 2010 1:20 AM PST up reply actions
Real basic here...
Baseball is made of three parts: offence, pitching, and defense
The Giants were very good in two of those three.
/auto-defenestrates
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Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 21, 2010 1:26 AM PST up reply actions
yeah, this
Statistics indicate that, in 2009, the Giants had great pitching, very good defense, and worst-in-baseball-or-close-to-it offense. Aside from defense, which some may quibble over, I’d be shocked if that didn’t jive with nearly everyone’s subjective experience of the team.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
…and which was reflected in the standings. Using the 2009 Giants to argue against stats is a little silly, since if you look at the nerd standings over on Baseball Prospectus, it gives you a 86+ first-order wins and 82+ second-order wins. In other words, that says that the Giants did a little bit better than the stats said they should’ve expected to do, but only by a small margin, easily accounted for by luck and so on.
If you wanted to argue against statistics using the Giants position in the standings, 1997 would be a better place to start. That year, the Giants won the division despite giving up more runs than they scored – they had a -9 run differential, but finished 2 games ahead of the Dodgers, who were +97. And, while the advanced stats should’ve indicated they were due for a collapse in 1998, they ended up doing almost as well in the standings with mostly the same players. I have my theories about that, but that’s another story.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Why didn't they win 92?
And make the playoffs? Perhaps…offensive ineptitude?
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
The sarcasm and shear obnoxious attitude of some of these "fans" have put me off also. I hope the Giants get into the playoffs and stick it up the ass to these so called fans of the team.
First: if you find sarcasm annoying, maybe this isn’t the best place for you. Sarcasm on MCC is not exactly a new phenomenon.
Second, we’re back to the, “you guys just want the Giants to lose, won’t you be pissed when they win 100 games!” premise. And no offense, but that’s ridiculous, and it’s a pretty bad misreading of where almost all of us are coming from. As I said in another thread, none of us would give two shits about Aubrey Huff and whether or not he sucks if we didn’t have an unhealthy emotional commitment to the Giants and their future prospects.
Finally, re: statistics – speaking personally, stats are neither the only nor the primary thing I enjoy about baseball – I love baseball for its stories, really. But right now, it’s the offseason, and there aren’t any stories going on right now. All we have are offseason transactions, and making sense of offseason transactions requires player analysis. To deny the utility of statistics in player analysis is ridiculous and flies in the face of facts, evidence, and all that good stuff.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
real fans dont appreciate sarcasm or obnoxiousness, buddy
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
Skip Bayless infects the McCoven
What’s wrong with a little blind optimism from time to time? That’s part of being a fan!
I totally agree with the sentiment of this post as it seems this blog seems to be channeling Skip Bayless all too often. Sure the moves this offseason have flaws but what about the alternatives? Given the mistakes of Zito and Rowand I think Sabean did a decent job of constructing a respectable lineup without handcuffing the team for the future. At least now we have 6 guys who can hit .300 or bash 20 DINGERZ!!
by joebirdie3 on Jan 21, 2010 8:28 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I think we reserve our optimism for young guys who’s flaws we have yet to see (and awesome big leagers like Lincecum/Sandoval)….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
I have plenty of blind optimism!
I think Buster Posey is going to be a great player, Madison Bumgarner will regain his velocity, Sandoval will continue to improve, Lincecum will be a Hall of Famer, Romo will be one of the better closers in the majors, Kieschnick will become a quality major leaguer, Neal is Real, and Crawford will learn to hit well enough to be a decent shortstop. I’m not sure how much more optimism I could manage.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I love the Giants
I love the talented prospects that have been picked up and my optimism lies in them. I spent more time at Muni, than at Big Phone Booth this season. Just watching them play gives me so much hope for the future.
The only thing is, I just don’t like the direction the leadership is currently steering the organization. On a $100MM boat.
I feel they say one thing, to which is make logical decisions, and then out of the blue, go against that logic. That is where my negativity lies.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, really, I have tons of blind optimism for plenty of players on the Giants!
Just listen to me talk about Thomas Neal, for God’s sake.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I was there for his 8 RBI explosion!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
I saw him hit a ridiculously massive home run in San Jose!
Of course, I also saw Villalona do that. :(
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Posey dented the CF wall with a laser shot double.
That was awesome.
You know what else was awesome? Gerald called a fantastic game for Bummy and Runzler. I thought he’s not ready to catch for these guys?!?!
AM I BEING NEGATIVE FOR SAYING THIS????
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
I SHOULD BE MORE POSITIVE
AND PRETEND PROBLEMS DON’T EXIST
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
There is no such thing as a problem
Only a deficiency of drugs
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Y Tu?
holy shit, i thought it was just my monitor
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Me 2 on Villalona
He nearly hit the warehouse beyond left field with one blast I saw. What’s the latest on his status? Is he gone forever from the Giants future or can we still hold out hope?
by joebirdie3 on Jan 21, 2010 11:42 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Am I an optomist or a pessimist in thinking he’ll be acquitted for the murder case?
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
Speaking of blind optimism
Just you guys wait until my adopted Giant becomes our first baseman of the future!
He’ll beat that rap, yet!
The baseball Satanist
At least it's not a mistake of the magnitude of signing Zito!
Hooray?
That’s not really blind optimism, to me. That seems more like settling.
The baseball Satanist
Sheer. Shear obnoxiousness would be kind of interesting, though.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
I prefer tensile obnoxiousness.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 21, 2010 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
I hope the Giants get into the playoffs and stick it up the ass to these so called fans of the team.
I’m not too worried about this. ;) Errr, I mean…
:’(
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
Speaking of obnoxious
Questioning someone else’s fandom is pretty high on the list of obnoxiousness.
The baseball Satanist
I'm a Negative Creep
And I’m Stoned.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 21, 2010 1:15 AM PST reply actions
I can dig it
It’s rare you see Nirvana references here.
"Forget it Donny, you're out of your element"-Walter Sobchak
by icanplaythird on Jan 21, 2010 1:36 AM PST up reply actions
This strikes me as the whole conservative/liberal dichotomy writ about the Giants/this site.
You think 88-74 is good and that we should be happy about 88-74.
I think that 88-74 was lucky, doesn’t indicate future success, and is an underachievement based on the potential of the club.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 21, 2010 1:20 AM PST reply actions
But
How can 88-74 simultaneously be lucky and underachieving?
I think he means it was underachieving in the sense that, with even a league average offense, the team would’ve been great.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
also
underachieving given their level of spending.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Im not happy with 88 wins, not at all
You’re missing the point, it’s the attitude that people have and the negativity displayed even before the season starts.
Reply button.
I don’t understand what is wrong with criticizing moves by the team or the team itself. It is my right as a fan. If I felt that the team was doing things that were positive I would say so. If said positive moves did not end well because of injury or the player did not live up to their potential I would say so. Ultimately I think that the unhappiness of many around here centers on the Giants management putting mediocre-to-poor players on the field. The reality is that the Giants GM is behind the times in regards to evaluating talent. I can spend a few minutes on the internet and draw different conclusions than Sabean has which would be based off of evidence rather than intuition and feeling. The world evaluating baseball players has evolved, most people on this site are on-board with this evolution, many people are uncomfortable with it. This does not mean that we don’t like baseball, or that we are just clutching spreadsheets and don’t take pleasure in watching Timmy pitch or Panda bat, it just means that we are using the available data to inform ourselves.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 21, 2010 1:36 AM PST up reply actions
This seems to be more criticism = hatred and realism = being negative
If you criticize the president you hate America… you MUST be an optimist or else….
Some people just can’t accept that one CAN be critical AND love something at the same time.
It gets a little tiring sometimes trying to explain it over and over again in every arena of life.
I’m not a big fan of Barbara Ehrenreich but reading Blindsided at least helped me feel that there other people out there for whom everything is not puppies, rainbows, and roses.
You mean there are people missing out on puppies, rainbows and roses all the time? Sucks for them.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
I only occasionally post here
But I’ve lurked for several years now (even before making an SBNation account). And the emphasis on advanced stats has been there for a long time. It’s part of the reason I loved this place. It introduced me to Fangraphs and the like. I wouldn’t want to see that go. People do occasionally come of as a little acerbic when they are disregarded. But when you consider how the front office’s actions have portrayed a seemingly complete disregard of these measures, I think that such a tone is warranted.
Part of what makes baseball wonderful IMO, is that it can be analyzed so clearly and beautifully. When my beloved baseball team does stuff that is so obviously wrong, according to analyses that I, a person who doesn’t worry about baseball for a living, can do, something is fucked up. Yeah, the A’s suck more than the Giants, but at least they have a front office that has shown that it understands what makes the game tick. Ours seems to be built on a foundation of meaningless platitudes.
As for those complaining about negativity before the season starts, the problem is that the team has basically made a bunch of moves that will have no effect on the team. In my mind there is no doubt that all the FA signings from this year could have been replaced from within the organization with no detriment to the teams’ results. (In fact, I believe the team would probably have done better if that were the case.) The saved money could have been banked for future higher payrolls, signings for the farm system, or even cheaper tickets (yeah, right). The point is that the team has shown no ability to do anything well, other than drafting and developing pitchers.
I love watching Lincecum, Cain, and Panda play the game.
I've been around this site
since just after its inception, mostly lurking and occasionally posting a smartass comment or praise for another poster’s Simpsons or Star Wars reference. I’m not a stathead, per se, and I don’t consider myself generally negative or positive about the Giants at any given moment.
But I freaking bleed orange and black, and I visit and read these pages every day, multiple times, and I look forward to every one of Grant’s posts and every new item on here, because this is far and away the best place for a Giants fan on the interwebs.
Disagree
I love this place for the exact reasons this site is “losing you”. It’s funny, obnoxious, overly dramatic at times…and you need to know your shit.
It’s certainly not for everyone – I’m guessing that there are Giants sites that are more “Hello Kitty” and less “Fight Club”. You might want to frequent one of those, instead of hoping for a change to this one.
Oh, and I fully expect Bengie Molina to be one of the five worst everyday hitters in baseball. That’s why I don’t like the signing.
"When you look at him, you say: 'Holy God.'" - Pete Carril on Tyreke Evans
I understand where you are coming from. It can get very negative around here at times, and this offseason has brought out the worst in us. The 88-74 season brought hope, and hope is a dangerous thing. I felt as if there were 2 portions of the offseason, and if one of these portions had gone decently well, you would be feeling the love.
First, This offseason was the time where the Giants could think about signing Lincecum, Sanchez and Wilson to multi year extensions. If any of these players were signed to a multi year deal to buy out arb years, the mccoven would probably be ecstatic, especially if it was lincecum. Second, I think there was an expectation that formed early in the offseason that Posey would play some roll in the Giants season, whether it is in April or June. Additionally, the hope became that an above average hitter would be brought in. What has occurred has disappointed us because we became hopeful that the shrewd deals of last offseason would continue. And full disclosure, we could be wrong, we were on uribe last offseason.
However, the group consensus of the Giants moves tends to agree with the majority of opinions from analysts and commentators outside of the organization. If we were drastically different, I would be worried. There are places where homer optimism comes in to play. I was very hopeful when edgar renteria was signed last offseason, even when the deal was eventually panned by analysts. I really thought renteria would be good. I don’t have that fan optimism this offseason, the moves seem too close to moves of offseason past, and that strategy was employed with a HoFer in mind. I put my hope in prospects, stats or no stats. I want to see Bowker, Posey, Schierholtz and Lewis play because I legitimately believe they can be above average players on the Giants, and they make much, much less than the going price for a FA. So I pan these signings because they seem like paying market value for production you already have on your roster.
Sorry for the long post. I am seeing a lot of long posts on this thread, so I think you have at least started an interesting discussion point.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Thanks for sharing a year of your great career with the Giants and their fans.
as a quick-and-dirty test of how negative I really am about the team
I just made two lists – current Giants players I really like, and current Giants players I really dislike, because I wondered which list would be longer. The results are that I like a lot more Giants than I dislike:
1) Tim Lincecum
2) Matt Cain
3) Jonathan Sanchez
4) Madison Bumgarner
5) Sergio Romo
6) Jeremy Affeldt
7) Fred Lewis
8) John Bowker
9) Pablo Sandoval
10) Buster Posey
11) Dan Runzler
1) Edgar Renteria
2) Aaron Rowand
3) Bengie Molina
4) Aubrey Huff
5) Eugenio Velez
…but it may also explain some of the negativity some of y’all are seeing. The list of players I like includes guys who probably won’t get much playing time in 2010 (Lewis, Bowker, Posey), while the list of guys I dislike includes bad contracts (Rowand, Renteria), guys who got more playing time last year than any logic can account for (Velez, Renteria), and both of the team’s two most recent free agent signings.
As I said in another thread where someone was complaining about negativity: we love the Giants, we just hate the way they’ve been run recently.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
by jcb9 on Jan 21, 2010 6:09 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
But do you “like” like all those players?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 21, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
I do. If we’re all being honest here, let me say this: I like watching sports because I like athletic guys. I wonder if it can get more basic than that.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
That would be funnier if you still had the link to BCB in your sig
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Thanks for sharing a year of your great career with the Giants and their fans.
by Speedforthewin on Jan 21, 2010 6:23 AM PST up reply actions
nah
baseball is ruining statistics
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t know if anybody saw the Front Burner edition of Hot Stove on the MLB Channel last night, but it was just Rosenthal, Verducci, and Heyman talking about every team in the NL and answering one question from fans via their Facebook page I think on each team.
Anyway, the question they took for the Giants was essentially, why don’t the Giants spend more money? And all three of them answered a) it does seem like they have the revenue to spend more if they wanted to; and b) the bigger problem is the way they spend. Why did they spend $20 million on a bunch of guys who are all “pretty marginal” (I think that was Rosenthal’s term) instead of spending $20 million on an impact player. And why do they follow that same logic pretty much every year.
Verducci suggested that it was being gunshy after the Zito contract. But all agreed that there was a strategy of essentially quantity over quality at work and it seemed the them a questionable way to spend money.
Now I’m not suggested that Rosenthal, Verducci, and Heymann are the greatest baseball minds of our times, but I do think that they represent a pretty good cross-section of mainstream baseball thinking. None of them are particularly statistically minded at all and certainly not “cutting edge.” And yet their criticisms are almost exactly what a lot of the McCoven are complaining about in this offseason’s moves.
I don’t think this is a case of provincial whining. For the second straight offseason the front office’s moves are being severely questioned by the national mainstream.
That said, we have Timmy and Panda and Matt and Dirty and Wilson. And that’s a lot of fun to look forward to.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Well put. The team continues to spend a huge amount of money for average (and below) production. It’s pretty obvious that they prefer quantity over quality to some extent.
The amount of money tied up between Zito and Rowand is astounding. Between the two, the Giants are paying $30.5M in 2010 for maybe 4 total wins. That works out to $7.6M per win. Which isn’t very good — it’s terrible.
#1 FanShot Champion
Did they say what impact player that money should have gone to? Holliday? Where’s the guarantee that we could have signed Holliday if we just handed him 20 million anyways?
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
There obviously isn’t, but he’s a Boras client, so he goes where the money is no matter what, and that would have been more than the Cardinals offered. I don’t know if they could have beaten an offer around $18-19M a season, even though that’s only a little more than what they are paying him, simply because of the impeding Pujols contract.
Are you suggesting that all clubs should have guarantees that their pursuit of any particular player be successful before they decide to pursue them? Because that would be one complicated system! It’s the strategy at work that’s being questioned. And as has been noted quite a few times lately, it’s a strategy that has been at work for years now. “If we had signed Guerrero we couldn’t have ….”
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Last year, I thought Sabean had turned a corner, and had started making smarter moves. This year, it pretty much seems like he’s gone back to the same crappy formula that hasn’t really worked since the Bonds years.
Pessimism regarding Bengie Molina’s a case in point. Is he a flawed catcher, you bet. Is he a horrible catcher that will drag down the Giants season? No. There’s been no discussion by Grant as to Molina’s likely role on the Giants in 2010. In my opinion, he was brought back to be the main catcher for the 1st half, batting 7th in the lineup where his type of hitting should play more efficiently, and in the 2nd half cede playing time to Buster Posey.
Maybe there’s been no discussion of this because the team has not said anything to this effect, and the way Bochy and Molina reacted to Posey’s promotion last year makes it seem unlikely. I think if we all knew that Posey was getting MLB playing time in the second half, we would gladly put up with two months of Jiggles behind the plate. But there’s just no reason to think that. Sabean and company think that Molina is not just an adequate catcher, but a good one and the one that gives them the best chance to win.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Jan 21, 2010 7:15 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
Yes, exactly, on every point. After last offseason, I really did think that Sabean’s methods had changed. The Renteria contract was ugly, but it was defensible on certain levels (though maybe not at quite so many $$s). That said, he made a number of very nice signings between Affeldt, Howry (yes, Howry), Johnson and Uribe. The trouble is that this season it has been a lot of Renterias – contracts which seem ugly and pointless but can be sort of justified if you think about each one separately (not so much all of them together) – and not many Affeldts, Howrys, Johnsons or Uribes.
And yes, I’m disappointed. I thought Brian had turned a corner finally, but instead we’re in a position where the best thing I can say about most of these signings is, “Well, at least they’re only for 1-2 years.”
And I also agree that if we believed the Giants would really split playing time between Buster and Bengie (or give the job to Buster altogether) in the second half, no one would be complaining, but based on the history of the Giants, Bengie and Buster, I can’t see it happening unless Bengie gets an injury that keeps him out of the lineup. Do you really think Bengie Molina would go from wanting a 2-3 year contract as a starter to being happy spending the second half of his new contract year on the bench?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
The trouble is that this season it has been a lot of Renterias
I remember being excited about how we were finally going to be rid of most of our stupid contracts…in 2004.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I agree
BTW, sig change time!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
I agree with most of this, except for...
I actually don’t think the current strategy worked all that well during the Bonds years, either.
The baseball Satanist
No, it didn't
It’s funny, though, almost the very first thing he did as GM, and probably the greatest success in Sabean’s career, was the Matt Williams trade. He traded a gritty veteran for some under-30 players and struck gold. You would think that he’d be out there trying to repeat that success, but he does just the opposite, collecting over-30 guys who are nearing if not past their expiration dates. It’s puzzling.
If you think Molina will be giving way for major PT for Buster in the 2nd half of the season, then you have not watched Botchey manage. Even if Sabean meant to have this be the case, it will not happen. Molina will start until his large body parts begin falling off. Plus, Molina was signed with a PT incentive attached. No way will we not see Molina 6 days a week.
Proud supporter of the Fightin' Hydrants.
by Little Napoleon on Jan 21, 2010 7:23 AM PST reply actions
COME ON, GUYS!! BE HAPPY!!
GUYS?
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 7:38 AM PST reply actions
MAKE LOVE STATS, NOT WAR STATS
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
STAT WARS!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions
A Spreadsheet ago, in a Spreadsheet a Spreadsheet away….
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Vikings are only happy when we’re screaming, burning and pillaging.
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
Some vikings, upon killing a hapless villager, cut the victim open so that the stomach and lungs were exposed. The viking then blew air into the mouth of the victim. The air then exited quickly through the exposed lungs and stomach causing them to flap like a balloon.
The baseball Satanist
GO VIKINGS!!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
LOL
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
It’s a big community. Does it really detract from your experience as a fan that other people express their fandom in different ways?
I do think the stat-inclined could stand to cut back on their relentless efforts to educate the masses, which frequently tip over into mockery and insults.
by Evan on Jan 21, 2010 7:43 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I demand that everyone think exactly as I do!!
I want people to have their own opinions as long as they are all like mine!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 7:45 AM PST up reply actions
LARS THE DEMANDER!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 21, 2010 7:59 AM PST up reply actions
I pretty much agree with this.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
Pie sucks
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
YOU SIR ARE THE WORST MAN IN HISTORY
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
'history's greatest cake monster' GIS result
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
This would never happen as a cake
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
always the trump card
Also, those tomatoes look good, at least!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
NIGHTMARE FUEL
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
That baby looks delicious!
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
OMG RESDOG IS A BABY EATER!!!!
I think I found a picture of him:
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
then he must secretly be a dodgers fan!
/checks signature for proof
Dodgers fans eat their young.
by redhornet78 on Jan 21, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
How is babby formed?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
You can say that again
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
How is babby formed?
Chick's dig the long ball.
by The Montana Giant on Jan 31, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
How is babby formed?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
It was just an expression
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
You can say that again.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 21, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
that again.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Relentless effort to educate the masses? Eh? Maybe it’s because I’m one of the stat-inclined, but I don’t think I see it that way around here.
#1 FanShot Champion
There are things like aghast reactions to people complaining about Fred Lewis’s defense. But I think mostly that’s just exasperation with going over the same argument 10,000 times with 10,000 people.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I think Fred Lewis’ defense is one of those explosive topics. There’s no good way to avoid an argument with that one.
#1 FanShot Champion
Well, to be fair
Fred’s defense is pretty explosive.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 8:06 AM PST up reply actions
Leave it to Lars to come up with a comment on Fred’s defense that we all can agree on.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Somtimes the response to bad stats is along the lines of RBIS!!! YOU BRAINDEAD CAVEMAN HOOKER!!!
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Jan 21, 2010 8:07 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And they totally don’t mind if you pull their hair.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 8:10 AM PST up reply actions
and beat them with clubs. Sabean is a caveman hooker right?
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
hmm… i would say this happens almost never. and if it does its most likely a joke.
No one here gets out alive.
Naming this name is OK, though.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
haha… this was just about renteria. and he was kind of an entertaining troll.
No one here gets out alive.
was he?
I guess calling people a gay nerd is okay.
THough the fact the he himself was a rabid anime fan made that amusing in an ironic way.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I disagree. I could name names, but I’d prefer not to cross that line here.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Oh, no doubt. I try to just Z right past those people.
There’s a ton of good information posted here every single day: stat stuff, scouting stuff, budget stuff, bourbon recommendations, whatever. The information is there for anyone open-minded enough to see it. Yelling at those who choose not to see it seems counter-productive (even if it’s a playful, ironic yelling, because it’s often not perceived as such).
So true.
I’m certainly not talking to you in particular, btw. There are a couple dozen of us who get into “educate the masses” mode from time to time, and usually it’s cool, but occasionally I get the feeling it drives people away.
I'm sure it's been done, and I could search the site for it
but I’m a bad lazy person and I wont; primers on all yer stats for those of us who have only recently accepted that OPS isn’t going away.
Here’s a cool link on a site that has a lot of good writers. Don’t ask xanthan, he hates stats.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
This is the kind of stuff that drives me insane
I can figure out an ERA, a WHIP, and OBP without much issue. Formula for FIP?
The formula for FIP is: (HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)3-K2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor that scales FIP to match league average ERA for a given season and league
My low math IQ is inhibiting my ability to keep up =P
Eh, don’t worry about the details, just note the key points. Only HR’s, BB’s and K’s are included. 2 Walks are equally as bad as 3 K’s are good. Now you’re very knowledgeable about FIP. :)
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2010 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
other way around
3 walks = -2 k’s = 13 HR
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
No those are the coefficients. 2 walks * 3 (walks constant) = 6. 3 K’s * -2 (k’s constant) = -6. So 2 walks are equally as bad as 3 K’s are good. Also, 3 HR’s = 13 walks.
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 8:46 PM PST up reply actions
duh.
I’m actually good at math, I swear.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Was he that PEOPLE IN BASEBALL HAVE RESPECTED MY KNOWLEDGE!! guy? Not the best way to make your first post to a community.
#1 FanShot Champion
wasn’t he the guy that responded to a disagreement by saying how baseball people every he went told him how great his opinions were?
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Didn’t he also keep talking about Johnny Bench or something? It was pretty weird!
#1 FanShot Champion
No, that was me :(
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 21, 2010 6:04 PM PST up reply actions
no he’s talking about this weird comment.
You’re arguments concerning Bench make sense to me.
FU, FO
That wasn’t meaningless. That guy was snooty and self-important.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
I Dont Knoe Anyone Hear Like That.
Your biased hatred won’t let you see him.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2010 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
There’s a ton of good information posted here every single day: stat stuff, scouting stuff, budget stuff, bourbon recommendations, whatever. The information is there for anyone open-minded enough to see it. Yelling at those who choose not to see it seems counter-productive (even if it’s a playful, ironic yelling, because it’s often not perceived as such).
Amen.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 25, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
Right, exactly. I’ve had the Fred Lewis’s defense argument myself a few times, but doesn’t it get tedious? And is anyone EVER convinced? Sometimes you just have to let people be wrong and get on with your life.
Unless Grant is getting paid based on the number of comments on his blog. In that case, full speed ahead.
And is anyone EVER convinced?
I successfully convinced someone on Fangraphs one time. :)
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
Go home folks, the internet is over.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
There are things like aghast reactions to people complaining about Fred Lewis’s defense. But I think mostly that’s justexasperation with going over the same argument 10,000 times with 10,000 peoplejponry.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
Perhaps you should comment more
You know, to balance out a perceived one-sidedness of opinion here.
It seems to me that if you are going to complain about a blog having a “group-think” mentality while simultaneously admitting you do not post much is sort of spitting into the wind.
To summarize: post more.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 8:09 AM PST reply actions
Piss into the wind instead!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Tug on Superman’s cape
Pull the mask off the Lone Ranger
Mess around with Jim
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
go back to knbr
I’m as positive as the next guy, but come on man over the years los gigantes have beaten people down. You can’t just yell “PRINT THE WORLD SERIES TIX!” after every Giants move. When the FO does shit over the years like sign Armando Benitez, it’s like we’re not even watching the same goddamned sport.
I’m not sure why you think the Giants should receive the benefit of the doubt, as they’ve done nothing to deserve it. Scary statistics aside, what exaclty have you OBSERVED with this team that gets you excited for the years to come? I guess if you want to be excited about the future, there are probably a lot of good vibrations in minor league related posts. Or, you know, the sfgiants.com message board.
Pretty much sums it up for me.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
It’s the offseason. If the only action coming is from the front office, then we’re going to bitch & moan (justifiably so). There will be plenty of sunshine & rainbows when spring rolls around.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Basically, Bochy and Sabean have beaten me down. At this point it’s so obvious they spurn knowledge that would make them better at their jobs. I’m sure there are things they do well (I like Bochy’s handling of our bullpen, and Sabean has improved our farm system since we put more emphasis on that), but overall, there are just so many things over their head (almost entirely stat related) that is so basic and readily available even we non-baseball people know it. I’m sorry, but I simply expect my GM, who’s in charge of a $200M corporation, to know this same information in his decision making process. It’s inexcusable that he doesn’t understand it. It’s frustrating, and it leads to most of the negativity.
Look, I know not every move will work out. That’s why bell curves exist to begin with – sometimes you get the unlucky end of the curve, sometimes the lucky end, but the best you can do is play the averages. My negativity stems from the fact that not only is Sabean not playing the averages, but he’s overpaying to play in the first place. So I judge his collective moves in that light, which is why I hate them so much. It’s not going to be successful without a ridiculous amount of luck, and I want to see a championship team. Sure, we won 88 games last year, which is 7 more than average, so that’s good, but I know we were lucky to do so, and it still didn’t get us into the playoffs, and we’re not likely to get into the playoffs next year. It’s frustrating. Until we move on from Sabean (and Bochy’s ridiculous lineup decisions), this attitude isn’t going to change. Get me a new GM, and I’ll be ok even with the moves I disagree with, as long as I can see there’s a sound process there. Then maybe (probably) they know something I don’t. I can acknolwedge that. In Sabean’s case he’s beyond the benefit of a doubt, though, as it’s quite clear his process is faulty and uninformed. Even when he does know things I don’t (hopefully often), it’s not enough to overcome his painfully obvious shortcomings.
One Franchise. Two Distinct Entities
I think you have to look at it in those terms. You have suits and you have unis.
The San Francisco Baseball Company. Thats the partnership. The Money guys. The Marketing guys. The Media guys. The Real Estate guys. The Baseball Front Office Guys and their idiot stooge in spandex, Bochy. They are successful at being pretentious millionaires but are long term failures in winning a World Series. I pretty much hate those fuckers.
And there is the team: The guys who everybody around here roots for and follows religiously like it was the Allies vs the Axis:
The San Francisco Giants Baseball team. The pitcher guys. The infielder guys. The outfielder guys. And during the season, they are the reason to breathe. To eat. To sleep in heavenly fucking peace. I pretty much love those fuckers.
And I hate what the San Francisco Baseball Company has done to the San Francisco Giants Baseball Team
You’ll not see Pollyanna holding much sway around here.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 9:00 AM PST reply actions 11 recs
yeah
most of my FUs are reserved for the FO.
Hell, I love Bengie Molina. For all his flaws, he’s been one of my favorite Giants over the past few seasons. I can even see why he was pissy about some whippersnapper coming up to take his job last year. But I love the Giants more than I love Bengie Molina and if he’s a bad bet to make the team better, then I’m going to be pissed off. BECAUSE I LOVE THE GIANTS AND I WANT THEM TO SUCCEED
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
BECAUSE I LOVE THE GIANTS AND I WANT THEM TO SUCCEED
Don’t let xanthan read this.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
Xanthan Hates Pie!
By the way, SB Nation has a kick-ass search engine
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
by ResDog on Jan 21, 2010 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This pie chart is becoming pretty incredible. The ‘splits’ slice made me laugh because it’s true.
Also, ‘this offseason’ lol.
#1 FanShot Champion
This offseason
A direct quote. I’m actually having to use stuff you really do hate now. There’s no room for me to make shit up now.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Hey, I was just complaining about referring to hitters as"bats" in the other thread, too!
WE HAVE STUFF IN COMMON XANTHAN!!!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Plus, I was called out by The Hardball Times for calling the Bill James projections optimistic.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
You weren’t really called out. You were cited.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
I’m pretty sure they WERE found to be optimistic, though, right?
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
I keep running into him in the grocery store, and I'm afraid he'll kick my ass
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I will say, at times the San Francisco Baseball Company makes me dislike the San Francisco Giants Baseball team. When they shove their “gamer” advertising down my throat and I watch our “gamer” Aaron Rowand not hit the cutoff, or another “gamer” in Barry Zito acting like the whiny little flake he is, it makes me resent those players to a degree. When I see a guy like Molina playing every day, who really isn’t a bad player for a C, hacking at crap, not getting on base, and GIDP, it makes me resent him for what he represents – a failing philosophy of the FO. So….maybe I’m a little over the top negative? I dunno, but I can acknolwedge it happens.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
I really try hard not to let the FO poison my view of the players. It’s a struggle, though.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
You’re talking about individual players. I have a certain disdain for individual players like most. But it is the TEAM itself. The whole. Not the parts to which I was referring.
Aside from a handful of guys from the 1958 team, I don’t remember much about the individual exploits, but I sure as hell remember living and dying on every pitch and at bat.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
LOL "idiot stooge in spandex"
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 25, 2010 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
Isn’t that the Rolling Stones’ Some Girls that he’s wearing there? That’s kinda cool, I guess.
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
Why yes, it is.
He thinks it’s very cool.
He’s actually upset that he didn’t order more – that one’s no longer available.
And since it’s got all the celebs’ images – including Lucille Ball, who sued the Stones for unauthorized image usage – there’s no guesswork involved!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Feb 1, 2010 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
I love this comment so much
I wish I could rec it 10 times.
Seasons will pass you by. I get up, I get down.
Is the cup half empty or half full?
I have been reading this site for several years now. This thread, couples with Grant’s recent posts have prompted me to register and throw in my two cents. Would I have liked to see different (what I think would be better moves) from the Giants? Yes- And, especially when I was a season ticket holder (1988 – 2008), I have told them so repeatedly.
BUT – I am happy about some of the moves. I think DeRosa, Huff, and Molina, would make us better than no moves (remember the year of Dustin Mohr being our only offseason move).
I am writing because I like the notion expressed at the start of this thread. I get enough negatives from so called fans of other so called team ( one local American league team that stinks, and one somewhat south NL team whom I hate). I am not looking for “homers” (and apparently Brian Sabean isn’t either). I just hope that more of us who do have some positive feelings and more importantly hope, get off our duffs, write, and add that hope to the mix that has traditionally made this site so much fun to stalk, er… hang out at.
So, I like that we have improved our hitting, I think as it stands without doing the sabermetrics, we have to be at least a half run per game better, with luck a full run.
I would like to have more home runs, because even as a self described baseball purist I know that people do not stay in their seats to watch a great pitcher pitch, but they do when they think someone is likely to hit a monster shot. I have told the Giants many times that i is not just chicks that dig the long ball.
Having said that, I am looking forward to seeing a 20 year old have a chance at being an every day starter. If it can work on any staff, the Giants have the staff to give MadBum example, encouragement, and support (maybe not RUN support,, but at least they are less likely to blow a save). I am looking forward to a full year of Runzler ( maybe we can change his name to Whiffster). I think Casilla might be the younger poor man’s Calero.
And although I hate Byrnsie and all the smarmy “ies” from that local softball team across the bay, I think it would be a great pickup to get him while the Dbacks pay his salary, bat him in the 7 or 8 hole, let him run into the brick wall in right, and maybe, just maybe be more help to us the than the “I don’t need no $17 million dollar doofus LaRoach” is to them.
Folks – my cup is not full by any stretch, but I say just about half full. Bring on Spring Training. May the Giants do something that encourages us all, and yes, I can imagine all the jokes about : “what is in that cup?” I don’t think people have necessarily been too negative, it’s maybe that those of us positive lurkers need to not be so lazy about posting our views as many have in the notes that preceded mine.
Spring training is probably the best baseball experience that exists. I can’t wait for my next trip out to Phoenix….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
Wrong!
Winning a championship is the BEST! EVER! :D
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
I wouldn’t know…. :’(
But seriously, chillin out in a stadium in the desert when it feels like a nice summer day, when back home it’s all wintry/springy/crappy, such a low key atmosphere, not expensive, get a chance to see the players you want to see and prospects you never get to see, not worry about stats or winning or losing, just enjoying baseball for what it is – a bunch of kids out playing a game, show up early, get some autographs, maybe a ball, watch them hit, sit on the grass and walk around the stadiums (most of which are pretty cool)…..I love it. Only been twice, hope to go again soon.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
it is the best...
Chick's dig the long ball.
by The Montana Giant on Jan 31, 2010 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
All in your perspective, I suppose.
I can’t wait for my next trip outtoof Phoenix….
I can’t wait for my next trip out toPhoenixSan Francisco….
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2010 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
True looking forward to my next trip to the Bay, as well. And I would only want to go to Phoenix for Spring Training. :)
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
(remember the year of Dustin Mohr being our only offseason move).
Actually, that was the year of the Pierzynski trade and giving up our first round draft pick on purpose via Michael Tucker. And also Grissom, who was better than those two disasters. But we probably would’ve been better off if Mohr had been our only move, really.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Also the year we signed Brett Tomko, changing tk’s life forever.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 21, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
Good thing we had him instead of Vlad
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I can get behind what you’ve said here, but I really can’t get behind Eric Byrnes.
It would be so, so, so depressing to me to watch a team who doesn’t have a single position player under the age of 32 (except for the one) and feel like the Giants have really managed to accomplish anything in the past four years. Just no to Eric Byrnes. He would tip me over the edge.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Eric Byrnes
embodies those traits which I hate most in some players..
False Hustle
Media suck-up
Look-at-me-I-am-a-major-leaguer
Stupid facial expressions
Retarded Hair
Irritating Voice
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
plus there's this
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
As the cliche is repeated “…worth a thousand words”
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
must… resist… urge… to… punch… in… face.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
No shit. The urge is overwhelming, but my damn monitor is too expensive to replace. Ah….wait…
(adblock filter) htt://coreybrock.mlblogs.com/photos/uncategorized/byrnes.jpg
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Please add:
Stupid front somersault throws to infield
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2010 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
“When its time for a change….think…SpeeDee Oil Change and tune up for all your vehicle needs”
God, I miss those guys.
Chick's dig the long ball.
by The Montana Giant on Jan 31, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
This should be green
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Jan 31, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
A glass half full outlook isn’t so bad. I often have one, myself.
It just feels like being positive about this offseason (as a whole, not individual moves) is more along the lines of saying “That glass isn’t empty, it’s full…of AIR!”
The baseball Satanist
it too is necessary for life!
/rainbow appears
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:24 PM PST up reply actions
Also
but could we please see less ‘woo’s me’
I believe the expression you are searching for is “woe is me”.
“Woo is me” is an expression that is used by fashion designer Staci Woo; or by anyone I date.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 9:22 AM PST reply actions
My wife just looked over my shoulder at this thread
Me: “We’re having a, ‘You guys are too negative and mean’ conversation.”
Her: I thought that’s what it meant to be a Giants fan."
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
In all seriousness
I’m just treading water here till baseball starts again and I can post shopped Dirty Sanchez pics and a bunch of new animated dancing gifs
Just don’t hate me before then
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Exactly
Amen.
The whole point about bringing Molina back is spot on. I have to believe that the fans were getting a little too excited about Posey prior to the Molina signing. Fans hadn’t been these pumped up about a Giants prospect since Clark more than 20 years ago. I get that. Honestly, I’m just as excited as the most of the folks who post here, but I’m willing to be patient for the Posey/Neal/ Bumgarner era – for now.
I won’t lie that part of it is that I just really didn’t want Bengie on the team anymore.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I don’t dislike Bengie. I dislike the fact that Bruce Bochy will be managing him.
#1 FanShot Champion
Me too. But I do understand why other people would like him more than I do.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Who didn’t love Money in 2008?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
OK, I slightly dislike him. But I’ll hate the way he’s used way more than anything else.
#1 FanShot Champion
And by slightly dislike I thought his attitude was pretty bad at times last year. He doesn’t seem very mentor-ish to me.
#1 FanShot Champion
You clarify my opinion on Dr. Waffle House, completely.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
“You called Buster up? I feel much better now!”
That was the last straw. The chump was perfectly willing to pout on the bench during the latter part of the season when the Giants were in contention. He only became “healthy” when Posey was brought up.
Fuck Bengie Molina. He is a waste of roster space.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
He only became "healthy" when Posey was brought up.
And it was Bochy’s decision to put him back in there. A skipper who wasn’t a marionette (like when Pinella sent Bradley packing for being an idiot) would have let Bengie sulk in his pancake batter at the end of the bench.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
That’s another problem I have with the Giants. At what point is the boss of the organization just going to say “fuck what you think, you’re going to do what I say”. I mean, you can be more diplomatic about it than that, but really, you shouldn’t be making poor decisions to cater to these guys feelings. I don’t care if Fred Lewis does or doesn’t like to bat 1st – if that’s where we think he should be, he’s going to do it (unfortunately the truth is Lewis won’t even be on the team). Who cares if Bengie doesn’t like the situation – it’s in the best interest of the Giants, he has to deal with it. Who cares if Bochy gets mad when his lineup gets veto’ed. It’s a shitty lineup that hurts the Giants, and it’s the boss’ responsibility to step in and tell him it’s going to be done a different way. These things don’t seem to happen within the Giants organization.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
You struck at the heart of the bigger issue here I think.
“…making poor decisions to cater to these guys feelings”
And that kind of decision making reputation gets around the league. Players talk. They know guys like Bochy and Sabean are more about old-school, old tools more than places like Anaheim, LA, Boston, Seattle, St. Louis, and that the chances of winning a championship in San Fran are somewhere between none and winning Powerball all to yourself.
Its not coincidence that so many old and formerly good, players come here to receive last rites on their careers
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Yep, thass' a spade all right...
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:43 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah
It may be a little harsh, but I really do not want to watch that fat sack of crap swing at pitching that bounce or slowly plod his way to first base, stretching a double into a single, all the while thinking about how we’ve got one of the best prospects in baseball just waiting to take over from the guy.
I wouldn't have minded any other FA catcher
I just needed a change. I mean, did we even try for Gregg Zaun? John Buck?
(either on a 1 year deal or a cheap 2 year deal that wouldn’t hurt you if he was the backup)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
well, also
There’s the whole thing about how they called up Posey in September. I don’t think any of us would’ve had such high hopes for him starting this year if not for that. Because, you know, calling up your top prospect to the majors a year before you think he’s ready is kind of a silly thing to do.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Yep. He wore out his welcome with me last year. I love it when he hits the occasional dinger, but the rest of his game and his approach just reminds of Neifi F. Perez. Only Neifi didn’t whine as much.
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
I'm apathetic to Bengie
I just REALLY REALLY REALLY like Posey
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
positivity!!!!: things that are funny
People who are Facebook fans of The Onion but don’t seem to understand the concept of jokes, such as Charles, here:
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Up jcb’s ass.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
You’d think it would be cleaned out by now.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
There’s just so much stuff backed up in there that it’d require major surgery to sort it out.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I think if one could privately ask all the Giants pitchers who’d they want behind the plate this year, Posey or Molina, Molina would win in a landslide. It is also just a one-year deal so nothing is stopping Posey from starting next year, only his 2nd out of college. I don’t recall these arguments being made on the front page of McCovey
I’ll address the overall negativity in a post today, but as to this point, I’ll concede. Now, I’m not sure if pitchers are the best judges of how to build a roster — really, they’ll always say nice things about the teammates they like — but if it makes them feel more confident to have Molina, I can’t argue with that. I tried to imply that with this:
But I’ll accept the possibility that Posey isn’t ready, that his defense needs work, and that it isn’t a good idea to drop a full-time catching gig in his lap for a team ready to contend. I disagree, but I don’t think I know enough to be dogmatic about it. A year in AAA isn’t going to ruin his development, and it might actually aid it.
But I didn’t reference what the pitching staff would prefer. My bad.
Of course, if you could also figure out how to tell Matt Cain that Posey in the lineup means less of a chance that Cain will lose 1-0 and 2-1 games, he might be able to lobby the clubhouse.
Matt Cain needs to learn how to get his own damn runs
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 21, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
3rd Starter at best
Needs to learn how to win
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
taco bell should do the trick
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
but if it makes them feel more confident to have Molina, I can’t argue with that
Well, it depends. How they feel only matters in the context of how it affects their performance. They can feel good or bad about something, but if they perform the same, who cares? It’s a point I made recently when someone mentioned clutch hitting and how pressure situations make people feel different. Who cares, unless it actually changes the output in a meaningful way?
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
Wow
Thanks for all the great comments. First off, I want to state that only someone who really cares about the Giants and McCovey Chronicles can write what I did. Though I don’t post often, I show my respect for Grant and the site by reading it almost everyday. I think Grant is hilarious. I’ll never forget ‘freebasing MLB Trade Rumors’. I’m also not anti-statistics at all. The more the merrier. They are part of the reason why baseball’s such a great sport. But I stick with my ‘statistical dogmatism’ line though as it appears that other facets of the game, ones that can never be catalogued accurately (like how a catcher relates to his pitchers), are nearly completely ignored on too many occasions. OBP is important, but it’s not everything (unless the Giants can consistently string 8 walks in a row ).
Anyways, I didn’t want to focus on statistics. I wanted to express my feeling that the blog was getting downright depressing. Many of you have made comments stating that there is a lot to complain/worry/criticize about the Giants. I completely agree! But other communities manage to do this while keeping an overall more optimistic vibe, such as the aforementioned Athletics Nation, Gaslamp, etc. To use one of our president’s favorite choices, this is not a ‘false choice’.
I know you all love the Giants and want to see them succeed. I remember reading all 5 million comments after Sanchez pitched his No-No. I think McCovey is great place, one that it would be tough to live without, I just think it can be better.
Go Giants
by world wide suicide on Jan 21, 2010 11:21 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Could you offer some solutions, perhaps? I’m kind of at a loss as to what, exactly, you want us to do. Be more optimistic? As we’ve said, if you get us talking about a pretty good proportion of the team, we can certainly be irrationally exuberant.
Seriously, I doubt there are many people here who have a bad word to say about Pablo, Tim, Matt, Jonathan, Brian (well…), Sergio, and so on. But I’m not gonna lie, I’d find it pretty difficult to work up a lot of enthusiasm about Renteria, Huff, Rowand, Molina, etc and honestly, I think it’s a bit unfair to expect people to do so.
I do think it’s a good time for a “Talk about what you love about the Giants!” open thread though.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Simple
If you want sunshine blown up your ass, go hang around a politician who wants your vote.
If you want to be delusional fanboy, there are plenty of chatrooms, message boards, and tons of worshipful stargazer sites that will sate your appetite for fantasy.
This isn’t one them.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Then what is the enjoyment for you, sir?
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
Making fun of guys who don’t know stats :D
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
I see. I take it then that I’m unwelcome with you.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
Actually just the opposite
see my comment to you below.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
I did. I know you’re a legend around here, and your occasional fanposts are powerful stuff. But I don’t think we’d hit it off in a bar. Not that I’d go into a sports bar anyway. I remember that ridicule from high school.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
I think this is worded a bit harshly, though I know that’s your style.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Harshly worded. I prefer it to Times Roman.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, maybe it’s the calendar talking, but I checked out a lot of places before I signed up for this place. The sarchasm, irreverence, and love of the Giants was the draw. (The LoLcats, Simpsons references, and dancing help too.)
Remember too, that many people on this blog know each other so you get some pretty crazy locker room antics sometimes just because of the familiarity of many of the posters.
My problem with McCoveychronicles is there’s just too many damn posters, wasting my time with too many comments I don’t care about (see: comments about pie, cake, or whoever’s ass has been brought up multiple times recently). Do you know how slow that makes my browser go when I’m at work? God. Makes it difficult to participate (and why I generally stay off front page comments).
Well, I’ll probably get banned for this, so….talk to y’all never? ;)
RIP Missing Barry
we barely knew you.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
You know, he's right.
I have to admit it, and I do know I’m often a contributor to the mess.
The comment count seems to have tripled in just a year.
But it’s not that we suddenly have 1100 posters, but the usual handful and another handful having some good in depth analysis and covering all angles. Then there are the witticisms and manifold varieties of image manipulated humor, of which I’ve never seen the like and I have to admit are endearing as all hell.
I mean, minor topics – even some painfully redundant ones – get hundreds of posts.
Still, the thought of the mods all circling around like handsmacking parochial school teachers trying to admonish those who throw up in the name of personal humor is funny.
A flamewarconversation I had with Wilriv some years ago keeps popping up in my mind, as does that sig about having " a fine blog if it weren’t for all these members" or something. At the time I thought he was a fucking elitist…although even then I understood his point. I just knew I’d never have an ability to come with the mind – numbing (but very informative) statistics and qualitative analysis…so I was just making noise.
I think there’s going to be some changes implemented here, but be careful not to create a situation where there’s a perception of favoritism.
I REALLY don’t want to reinforce any of the ’Pit’s blanket assessments, y’know?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2010 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
As long as you’re cool with me posting weird pictures of myself, then everything you said is okay by me.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
People like that should be banned.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
I’m pretty sure we should just ban everyone at this point and let Bonds sort it out.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
The only just and reasonable solution.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I second that emotion.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:45 AM PST up reply actions
I actually would like to see a separate OT Fanpost (weekly? semi-weekly)
So that the front-page material could stay more on topic and people can keep their personal convos out of it….
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
That might be a possibility. I mean, I have to admit that while I like OT conversations (the one we had about religion last night was pretty interesting), at times they get a bit, “Hey, you know, there’s this thing called ‘AIM’”, if you know what I mean.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
A McCovey Chronicles IRC channel would be kind of awesome, actually. I do agree that the OT stuff overwhelms the main page posts a bit too much.
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
I think it would be kinda cool. And this place is full of nerds anyways so it could work out.
#1 FanShot Champion
Or
A MCC MUD/MUSH/MOO/whatever!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
A MCC MUD would be awesome. lol
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
I suggested an IRC channel once but iirc… a total of 0 people were interested. I’m frequently on Dalnet. I’ve known some of the people in #notinsane since the 90’s so I check in with them from time to time. If people want an IRC channel on Dalnet I can easily set one up…
I don’t know how to use IRC, but I agree there needs to be some way to funnel a lot of the extended stream-of-consciousness one-liners to a different location. Mirror site? LJ community?…
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Jan 21, 2010 7:17 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t use LJ Facebook or any of that other stuff… the nice thing about IRC is that it is live chat and you don’t have to set up an account. You can register your user name on some networks, but it’s not necessary.
Once you d/l a client (mIRC for pc’s, colloquy or ircle for macs – there are others, those are the most popular) and find a server you’re good to go.
What's that in English, ma'am?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:47 AM PST up reply actions
All right ya pervs…. I meant something more along the lines of: Sometime tomorrow I’ll put up a fanshot with semi-detailed instructions on how to use irc.
’k?
thanx
You think you can stop my mind from wallowing in the gutter that easily?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 23, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
Mod powers please! :-D
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Actually
This is one of the main reasons why I haven’t been posting as much lately (aside from the last couple of days)
I can’t check the MCC during work so when i get off and come home and see a post or an article with 600 or more posts, I can’t make myself slog through them all.
I love the conversations here (on-topic and off-topic), but i don’t have the time to slog through them most of the time.
The baseball Satanist
I hate math, I hate statistics, not just baseball statistics, ALL statistics, I never went to stats 101 in college because I just couldn’t understand how to work numbers, right now I can barely do arithmetic without a calculator and I cannot, cannot, do math in my head. Well, maybe stuff like 2 + 2 or 10 times 2 or how many nickels there are in a dollar (twenty, right?)
I don’t care about prospects or the farm system or the minor leagues. At all.
I like this place because I like the people. Well, except maybe Missing Barry, who apparently is my antithesis. :)
JUST A CITY BOY
If its any consolation
You don’t have to know jack shit about stats to be a knowledgeable fan. Anymore than you need to know C++ to get frustrated with Windows.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
That’s my point. I don’t need consolation. I like this place just as it is. I was perfectly happy until this damn conversation started up.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
I'll drop it then.
And for me fun is giving and taking shit Really. I like your posts and your enthusiasm. NO intent to create any ill will here.
Sorry if you took things the way they were not intended. It can happen.
by E Ticket on Jan 21, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
The nice thing about most baseball stats is that either higher = better or lower = better, and you always get a baseline.
Say the OBP baseline is .330. You just know that a guy who OBPs .340 is doing better.
Or say that the WHIP baseline is 1.4. You just know that a guy who has a 1.25 WHIP is doing pretty good.
Most of the really advanced stats follow the same basic principles. Not understanding the math is only a small obstacle as long as you understand the principles.
OBP = getting on base. That’s good!
OPS+ is approximate overall value relative to the league!
I don’t know how OPS+ is calculated, but I get what it’s supposed to do, I know which direction it runs, and I have a pretty good idea what its baseline is. The rest is just details for nerds with spreadsheets.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
My point is, none of that is part of my enjoyment of sports. I’m here for the camaraderie. And if my singalongs and raunchy comments and picspams—most of which I only did once I got the feeling it was okay since other people do it to—are annoying people, then there, that’s when I don’t like it. And I liked it fine over in the damn t-shirt thread. I don’t like being inferred that people like me are insignificant or useless just because we can’t talk jack shit about stats.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Well, everyone is going to have a different idea of what makes the site useful. I don’t think Missing Barry was trying to say that you’re insignificant or useless, because you’re certainly not the only person who takes place in OT threads or even the only person who prefers participating in the LOLZ part of MCC and less so the big long baseball arguments. If it’s his opinion that the site would be better without that, he’s got a right to have it, but he can’t expect the blog to change to his standards. (just like the OP of this thread can’t expect people to force themselves to be optimistic or I can’t expect people to think Fred Lewis is awesome and so on and so forth.)
And for the record, I think you’re awesome and that MCC would be a worse place without you!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I did get very pissy, and I still am, and I’m sorry; I’ll be fine in an hour or so. You have to understand, when you grow up artistic, non-athletic, non-mathematic, and gay and you find yourself drawn to sports for beauty and history and the goddamned legends of Americana, to get in touch with what a guy in the 1910s felt about Christy Mathewson or a guy in the 50s thought about the Shot Heard Round the World or Willy Mays, and you go through several years of believing the jocks and the nerds don’t want to talk to you because you’re a sissy or an airhead, you get a little sensitive about defending your fandom. And I am a Giants fan, dammit. For a lot more personal reasons than I can even share even here right now.
… so yeah i’ll be fine in an hour or so. Just decided it’s time to state myself for the record.
JUST A CITY BOY
by shanghaijim on Jan 21, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
He’s tasty too!
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Wait - you're gay?
Get…out! (wink)
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 23, 2010 5:50 AM PST up reply actions
I get what you are saying 100%, man.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Jan 21, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
You don’t need to justify your fandom to anyone. I’m glad you post here…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 21, 2010 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Ah. I see what you’re saying now.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t like being inferred that people like me are insignificant
Well sir, considering the reader is the one inferring, I would have to say you have only yourself to blame. ;)
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, just take what you need and ignore the rest. I am awful with math and stats and have no interest in it. I have a very narrow interest: SF Giants baseball. I barely know who plays for any other team, or if they are any good. And I don’t really care. I’m here because I like the community and I love the laughs. I’m not a sports guy AT ALL. And none of my friends are, really, either. If it’s not the Blazers (or the Ducks) none of anyone I know knows anything about it. So I don’t have a lot of people to be social with about baseball. But make no mistake, I LOVE watching baseball. And I love the gameday threads, where I get to watch – and laugh at – baseball with my friends on McC, some of whom I have know for a long time now. SO long now, I can watch or listen to a game where I am not online and I go “Oh, Lars going to say about that?? Oh, I bet they’re all giving Scott grief over THAT play.”
Sheesh, I’m a rambler.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Jan 21, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
This thread is bringing out the vulnerable children in all of us. Wow.
/Walrusman joke
/TWSS
/blahblahblah
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...-----RIP, MY SON
Will your perspective change if say they did win it all in 2002?
Let’s pretend the 2002 Giants brought home the hardware instead of having a fluke hurricane that hit Southern California prior to Game 7 and blew the Anaheim Angels away (hence they renamed themselves the LoLs Angeles Angels of Anaheim) so Selig thought it was best to end the series in a tie.
I would have been pretty satisfied or at least somewhat upbeat even with how it has turned out from 04-09. It would have broken the San Francisco WS “drought”, shut up the Dodger fans, shut up the A’s fans while we can rub it in the faces of the Red Sox, Cub and White Sox fans. Bonds would have a ring as would Kent and Nen’s career sacrifice wasn’t all for nothing; Dustiny would have been fulfilled. [/sigh]
Instead, here we are — nine plus years later still chasing an impossible dream so excuse us for a tad bit pessimistic especially with this offseason’s “major” moves. However, I’m still excited for the upcoming season just because I do love baseball, most of the Giants’ players in general and free Bubbahead giveaways.
Win the inning.
If the Giants win the World Series, I will give them at least 10 years before I will ever even think of bitching about them again
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Yep, I can do A LOT of forgiving and looking the other way from terrible processes after a World Series victory….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
I would probably bitch about them the very next season. That is just who I am.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
I couldn't change even if I wanted to
I am way too old for that.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
The Wanderer abides.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2010 11:47 PM PST up reply actions
Bill Simmons actually says 5 year grace period
12. After your team wins a championship, they immediately get a five-year grace period: You can’t complain about anything that happens with your team (trades, draft picks, salary-cap cuts, coaching moves) for five years. There are no exceptions. For instance, the Pats could finish 0-80 over the next five years and I wouldn’t say a peep. That’s just the way it is. You win the Super Bowl, you go on cruise control for five years. Everything else is gravy.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020227
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Oh, I apologize for posting a link to an article I thought was funny that pertains to the conversation
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I can’t necessarily agree with all of that. I mean, if the Giants won the WS and then went absolutely nuts and did a lot of blatantly horrible moves, I would complain. Maybe not as vigorously as I would if they hadn’t won the WS, but I would still complain.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
For example: Florida Marlins fire sale, 1997-1998.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Yeah
And at least they had some sort of tenuous excuse for that (even if it’s bs). There’s no way I’d buy the Giants ever having to do a firesale for monetary purposes.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Except then they rebuilt and won another won. That would be perfectly acceptable to me. I’m all about championships – I’d rather have 9 years of horrible losing and 1 WS than 10 years of playoffs with nothing to show for it. Well, at least at this point having never seen a WS (or any other championship besides ’95 Niners)….
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
He also promptly violated that rule in the season after each of the Pats, Sawx, and Celtics won their respective titles.
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 1, 2010 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
Totally. Winning the WS is what it’s all about. I would love to see one my teams (Giants, 9ers, BC football, Sharks) win a title during my adult life. That would make being a fan so worth it.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Nah, you’d still be the same fan.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
The last Niners’ super bowl was when I was in fourth grade. I don’t really know what it’s like for one of my teams to win a championship. My friends that are Sawx fans all say that some edge they had mellowed a bit after 2004. They no longer had this certainty that their team would find a way to screw up (this is a Simmons paraphrase, I know, but every Sawx fan I knew in Boston felt this way). That’s how I feel about the Giants, about the Eagles, about the Sharks, even about the Niners. Deep down I feel like the good times can’t last because they’ll find a way to screw it up. I’d love for that feeling to go away.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
E-A-G-L-E-S. EAGLES EAGLES EAGLES! Wait, why do you like the Eagles? That’s strange. Ugh and I hate Boston, it’s accent, and pretty much everything about their sports teams/fans….
:)
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
I went to Boston College. I don’t like any other Boston teams, though. Their fans are ridiculous.
In the end, America will be remembered for three things: the Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I live in Philly, and Eagles fans are pretty ridiculous. I was supposed to go to the Eagles Niners game but couldn’t make it. I’m glad this wasn’t me…
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2010 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
lol
BC Football :(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
About 5 years for me, as long as they appeared to be trying. If they’d won it all in ‘02, I’d be getting antsy for another one right about now, I’m pretty sure.
Back when I gave a shit about the Niners in the ’80s, I had them pegged at winning the Super Bowl every 3 years. If they went longer than 3, I got pissy.
Yes, really, I have not updated my blog in a long long time: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
2002 was a trauma
a lot more than a lot of us would admit. to get so close to the WS title and not win it was heart-breaking, but it also created an hotter intensity of desire to actually win one, among the fans.
Unfortunately, since then, the Front Office had been more blatant in its policy of putting a competitive money maker out on the field rather than a championship team and that frustrates the fuck out most of us b/c we just want to win, not “compete.”
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 21, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
They spent money alright
Just on the wrong guys. D’oh.
I think with every championship will come a honeymoon phase as well as a perhaps false certainty that “well they have won it all already so winning it again is very possible.”
I think Phils’ fans aren’t that much down on losing this past WS (because of their recent championship) compared to if they did lose to Tampa Bay in 08.
Win the inning.
by Scooter Ellis on Jan 21, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
I would still complain
Bad moves are still bad moves.
I would also, however, be happier because of that ring.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
I’m really fed up with Brian Sabean & The More of the Same Band. With no Barry Bonds to cover the holes, there’s really very little to the Giants offense. They finally lucked their way into a prospect — Sandoval — becoming a major league player that they couldn’t bench or keep in AAAAAAAAAA and there’s a very obvious motto by the organization that they’re in it to compete, not to win it all. Why should I be happy about a team that manages for the margins? Why should I be positive about moves my team makes when I know the reasoning behind such moves? It’s not to build a winner, it’s to build a team that doesn’t lose a bunch of games during the early parts of the season and through the summer when they can make the most out of ticket and concession sales. If they make the playoffs, that’s icing on the cake, but the Giants have already figured out how much revenue they need to generate each year to be successful and have likely done so keeping in mind that making it into the playoffs, as well as being competitive within them, is a crapshoot unto itself. Better to stay hydrated in a marathon than train for a sprint.
I kind of agree
I completely understand the negativity, and I haven’t liked a single thing Sabean has done this offseason. However, the negativity doesn’t bother me as much as the quantity of it- 4 posts and 4300+ comments on a one year signing of Molina, 99% of which were super negative, seems a bit much. I mean, I HATE the signing but sometimes the threads just get out of hand…lately pretty much every single thread has 1000+ comments, 600 of which are negative and 400 of which are completely off topic. It becomes really difficult to navigate through. I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t want it to become strict or anything but it’d be nice if people could monitor themselves a bit…like if you want to have a conversation with someone IM or email them or something, don’t add 100 comments to a thread that has nothing to do with what you are talking about. At the same time I want it to remain fun so I don’t know.
I am almost cynical enough to believe that this was issued by someone in the Giants PR office. This kind of thing is not without precedent. If I remember correctly, the Golden State Warriors were busted for trying to influence online sentiment towards their club.
I’m not saying that this is the case here, but I have to admit that it made me wonder.
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 2:27 PM PST reply actions
So you're not saying
You’re just saying?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
teehee
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
lol
SO I AM NOT SAYING!!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting screen name choice for a Ginats PR worker.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 21, 2010 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve said it a few times already, but I am a company man now, but this site hasn’t been brought up yet in any sort of capacity yet (I also haven’t started working yet, but I am technically on the Giants payroll right now)
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
The main theme I’m hearing is “I don’t post often, but I’ve been lurking for a few years.” So maybe the solution is to start posting well-crafted comments and posts, instead of coming in here with the “C’mon guys, stop being so negative and stuff!” lines.
And no, posting fanposts with unrealistic trade ideas and “your lineups!” would not be considered well-crafted.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jan 21, 2010 2:53 PM PST reply actions
There are plent of those. Just mention Sergio Romo…..
Sergio…..
Romo………
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jan 21, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
Anybody else find the irony
with the topic of this thread (optimism at McCovey) created by username “world wide suicide”??
Social Studies
I’d opine that most of the threads on here appear so negative because of the personalities of the people who post most often on here. I happen to think that those who do not post here as often usually have some of the more interesting things to say; the regulars do too, it just requires navigating hundreds of meaningless posts to find them. While I think we can all agree that we enjoy coming to this blog (because after all, we’re here reading this thread), think about this:
- What does it say about a person who feels they need to be heard in just about every thread and every post? This is not natural, if there is such a thing as “the average person.” I mean, does the average person REALLY have time to be monitoring this site 24/7 (and if so, what does that say about their productivity at work)? So for the folks who seem to always have something negative to say, and say it often, remember we’re talking about people who are both obsessed with Giants baseball but obsessed with living life one word-on-a-screen at a time. The internet, and chat rooms, or blogs, are their social life. And it’s not like that’s not ok, it’s just, well, what it is.
- Often, the people who post so many millions of negative posts are either trying to promote some sort of statistical knowledge supremacy, or trying to be funnier than the previous guy. Or, worse, trying to enhance their ’net cred by saying something funny on here “x” times per day, in search of some sort of popularity.
- Many of the negative comments you see on here are almost of the cut-and-paste variety. Like, the same person has already said the same thing in 50 other posts since January 1st, and is just waiting to see their argument spawn off more replies than it earned the time before. Because if you say something “funny” and negative and it generates 25 replies from your internet friends (who you’ve probably never met), well then dammit, the beer with dinner is gonna taste that much better tonight.
- I see nothing wrong with negative comment-starter topics by Grant (not that he asked my opinion), but I’d also argue that he knows exactly what to write in order to attract more comments. More comments = sexier, regardless if they are lame. Right?
Advanced statistics ARE important. Criticisms of front office decisions ARE important. Trusting your eyes IS important. So many of the arguments on this site used to criticize are valid as all hell. The degree to which its necessary for some “stat guy” to attack someone who says “you know, Bengie seemed to be pretty clutch” by inundating them with a slew of memorized stats is, well, debatable. Acceptable? Yes. But the attacks can come across as fairly spiteful and elitist. And god forbid you’ve ever actually, you know, worked in a front office, because just mentioning that mere fact is enough to get you tarred and feathered here.
Imagine the guy who is sitting, unshowered, foaming at the mouth with big white eyes in their unvacuumed dorm room, just waiting for someone to support Bengie’s offensive contributions. Sausage fingers just dying to hit CTRL-V and spew out his “BUT YOU DON’T HAVE A CLUE WHAT wOBA IS DO YOU!! DIE YOU LESS-THAN-TRUE GIANTS FAN!” Is that most of you? Of course not. Is that some of you? Of course it is, and that roll call will likely begin with all the flames I garner in reply to this. And those are the comments I presume this original poster is remembering most. Because they are the least necessary yet most memorable.
So that’s my take. It certainly doesn’t apply to the majority of people here. But it only takes five future unabombers to take what should be a 400-comment thread and turn it into a 1,200-comment one full of anger… anger I suspect has more to do with the fact that they can’t land the hot chick rather than the fact that we signed Aubrey Huff instead of gave Garko a chance after dealing away a supposedly valuable prospect for him.
Enjoy.
lol nerd cannot land hot chics
SUCK IT NERDS
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Doesn’t he know that nerds are in these days?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I’m concerned about why you would save that.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
i was going to use that once but ended up not… totally forgot why, and just remembered it now!
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
You forgot why you were going to use it!? He only posted it 2 hours ago.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
hahahaha
you cannot escape the nerdz
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
What do I care what kind of tree you have, Natto?!?
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 21, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
Because I sent you one in Farmville!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
LARS THE EXULTER!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 25, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
That was unnecessarily hostile.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 4:27 PM PST up reply actions
/goes to copy paste this comment into every other thread that was opened today.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 4:27 PM PST up reply actions
after all you got a lot of work to do to get that comment ranking back up
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:28 PM PST up reply actions
This is an especially ridiculous statement
because there is a “regular” here who actually does work for a major league organization (in the minors, but still), and he gets absolutely no shit for it.
The baseball Satanist
And owlcroft used to consult for two different FO's (I think)
And no one bagged on him for that.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
maybe because we all had hot chics at the time?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I googled ‘chic’ and you are wrong. Moreso than if u had said chick.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:30 PM PST up reply actions
AWWWW, FREAK OUT!!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Jan 21, 2010 10:40 PM PST up reply actions
Le Freak C’est Chic.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 22, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
owlcroft was awesome, I dunno where he went. We need him back.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2010 8:11 AM PST up reply actions
the only time people have been given shit for that kind of thing
is when they’ve said it in the context of, “HEY! LOOK AT ME! I WORKED FOR A MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM MAKING PHOTOCOPIES! THAT MAKES MY OPINION BETTER THAN YOURS!”
Actually, at least one of the guys who got a lot of shit for that sort of thing later re-read his original post on the subject and agreed he came across as a bit of a douche in it.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
If you were a newbie, I’d say troll.
Since two of your most recent posts on MCC have been complaints about Sabean (including a complaint about the Huff signing), and you used nerd stats to make your point, I’m wondering about sarchasm.
And as for regulars being here constantly and having no lives outside the Internet, well, I think I was fourth or fifth in most comments in 2009, so I thought I’d detail a few of the things I did outside of MCC in 2009:
- Worked the entire year, except for the last week
- Spent a lot of time looking for a better job (thank you shitty job market and high Bay Area cost of living!)
- Moved across the country with two kids, a dog, and a wife.
- Applied to several Ph.D programs
- Raised two kids under the age of four (one of whom was under the age of one for most of the year)
- Wrote most of a novel (I really need to get back on that – sigh)
- Hosted a kick-ass Chinese New Year celebration
- Read about 3 books a month
- Scored on any number of occasions, often in non-paying situations!
Seriously, I don’t have anything like the 24/7 monitoring capacity you suggest. Hell, I don’t even have to time watch games all the way through most of the time – I’m lucky if I catch half a game on the radio. But when I am here, I’m chatty. It’s a community I enjoy, and it’s a nice way to unwind from a lot of the stress that comes with a lot of the stuff above. Of course, Brian Sabean often undermines that whole unwinding thing, but that’s another issue…
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Scored on any number of occasions
that means he didnt get any
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
Inability to Read 101
“It certainly doesn’t apply to the majority of people here.”
yawn.
continue the anger, masses.
To be fair, my thumb does look pretty obese here
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
most of the threads on here appear so negative because of the personalities of the people who post most often on here
This narrows down to a limited amount of individuals on this site. After that, no matter how you try to dodge the subject by saying words like “it doesn’t apply to the majority of you”, it doesn’t change the fact that you are talking about a very specific subset of the posters here.
It is not difficult to decipher who you are talking about, and you don’t need to beat around the bushes. Come out and say it.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
He’s obviously talking about Natto. Man, that guy’s whole approach to life is depressing.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
LIFE IS PAIN
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Don’t be so emo, emo boy.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 5:59 PM PST up reply actions
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
You’re allowed to be exactly that emo.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 10:27 PM PST up reply actions
Lolmasses.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
Oh man, that makes me want molasses.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
I’d rather have a mol of asses
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
What did he fail to read?
I mean other then saying “NERDZ CAN’T GET CHIKS”and that this was “YOUR SOCIAL LIFE LOSER”
He was 5-15 with the Oakland Raiders and got fired before his second season was over. He went 7-6 in his one year at Tennessee in a season when the SEC wasn't terribly good. He lost at home to UCLA; the Bruins only road win in the Pac-10 came at Washington State.
I lost you after "I opine..."
Because it’s just a bunch of bloviating without really any basis in reality.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
I can’t speak for the rest of the posters, but I think you nailed me perfectly.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Wow, yeah, we’re the negative ones here. Huh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
eventually our relationships will spoil like a tear in the rain and we will all die alone
=/
congrats tho
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
U r just angry cause u can’t get hot chics
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Jan 21, 2010 6:03 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Especially true in movies and tv shows. Every sitcom has to have a fat guy with a hot girl. It’s the law.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
mlb22, I was almost with you until the “you don’t know each other” and “hot chicks” business. Right there you veered way off the road to a valid argument about too much static vs. signal, and into the abyss of cliche and aggro.
I think the comment threads have turned into yet another venue for low attention span chitchat that signifies neither hostility nor superiority … just boredom.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Jan 21, 2010 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
I can't figure a block quote to save my life, so I'm just going to use regular quotes
“The internet, and chat rooms, or blogs, are their social life. And it’s not like that’s not ok, it’s just, well, what it is.”
This part me made laugh. I mean, are you serious? Our social life? So we go on an internet forum or blog or whatever it is to express our opinion and chat with people that shares our interest, and that constitutes our social life? What a generaliziation. And I don’t think many post in every thread. I know I don’t.
“Often, the people who post so many millions of negative posts are either trying to promote some sort of statistical knowledge supremacy, or trying to be funnier than the previous guy”
Or their trying to post their opinion? Hmm…
see nothing wrong with negative comment-starter topics by Grant (not that he asked my opinion), but I’d also argue that he knows exactly what to write in order to attract more comments. More comments = sexier, regardless if they are lame. Right?"
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think Grant gives 2 shits about comments. He’s here to write about his favorite baseball team, and if it’s negative then so be it.
“anger I suspect has more to do with the fact that they can’t land the hot chick”
You’re quite the funny guy.
He was 5-15 with the Oakland Raiders and got fired before his second season was over. He went 7-6 in his one year at Tennessee in a season when the SEC wasn't terribly good. He lost at home to UCLA; the Bruins only road win in the Pac-10 came at Washington State.
I can’t figure a block quote to save my life, so I’m just going to use regular quotes
Copy/paste your intended quote, except you hit either “reply” in order to to reply to a particular post and then click on the “quotation marks” and rightclick/paste your copied quote in between the BLOCKQUOTEs or just start your own w/o replying to anyone in particular.
So we go on an internet forum or blog or whatever it is to express our opinion and chat with people that shares our interest, and that constitutes our social life?
Actually, yes.
Since everything costs what I haven’t got enough of to be outwardly social this is pretty much the sum total of my public interaction right now, except for teasing fleeting conversation out of an occasional cashier.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 27, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
I adore meta. (It's true!)
I don’t have any time to read the site at work, and when I get home, it would be another three or so hours to keep up. But what’s great is that the people from this community — I like them so much I’ve found other, less-spammy ways to keep up with them! Even Grant. So maybe this makes me part of the in-group and it probably does. I apologize in advance to anyone who feels like I’m being eliter-than-thou.
I like the baseball, and the people, and stats and discussion about signings. I cannot deal, anymore, with the lulz. Macros and memes and LOLthisandthat, and for-christ’s-sakes vomit gifs, are most of the reason I don’t get around here much anymore. But I’m not driving the site’s direction, or its purpose (which I still think is not to be 4chan, but to be a Giants discussion site). I’m glad I was here early on and met all these amazing people and learned all this stuff about baseball because of it. It’s outgrown me now, though.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
Yeah, I have a similar experience
I actually took the time to participate in some conversations yesterday and it consumed six hours of my time. Sure I was doing other things at the same time…
But SIX HOURS!
I love this place but there’s no way I can slog through 600-1200 comment conversations in multiple places after i get home from work.
So i have to pick and choose when and where I participate.
The baseball Satanist
Wow. This exploded while I was gone.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Agreed
I completely agree with you world wide suicide…I’ve been reading this blog for about 3 years now and i have to say that the arrogance and unrealistic pessimism on here lately is very troubling…
by 07 playoff push on Jan 21, 2010 8:13 PM PST reply actions
I guess I’m just having a hard time grasping the concept of unrealistic pessimism. Unrealistic optimism is fairly obvious and straight-forward. But, I can’t really think about what unrealistic pessimism is.
The baseball Satanist
hmmmm…. how bout all the conniption fits people were throwing prior to Y2K?
Thinking that all the computers on the planet would go belly up at midnight on December 31st could be considered unrealistic, and pessimistic…
Or the 2012 stuff?
my example: my father
He can drive you crazy with his pessimism. One story:
In the summer of 1997, we went on vacation to the UK. My mother had some work to do, so she left a week before us. My father’s and sister’s passports didn’t arrive until the day before we were leaving. He was frazzled by that, which is understandable, but what’s less understandable is that he continued to be convinced we somehow wouldn’t be allowed on the plane EVEN AFTER the passports arrived. All the way to the airport. Argh.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Unrealistic pessimism?
It’s the exact opposite of thinking the Giants were going to make a playoff push in 2007.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
Just don’t think about that too hard, though, because it falls apart pretty quickly.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 10:31 PM PST up reply actions
i made this account after the warriors 07 push
by 07 playoff push on Jan 26, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
It would be nice if people would reply to comments they see as arrogant, rather than make these blanket statements that are impossible to disprove.
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
Like when Grant called me an arrogant mod.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 10:31 PM PST up reply actions
Ooh, interesting. Link?
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Current Team's CHONE WAR projection= 12.6
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/1/19/1260768/bengie-molina-back-on-the-giants#29170269
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Jan 21, 2010 11:08 PM PST up reply actions
It’s easier to make broad generalizations.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Can you give an example of that?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 22, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know
I’ve been visiting the site for quite a long time, and it doesn’t really seem a lot more negative or arrogant than it used to be. The big difference I notice, actually, is there are more new people who complain about the arrogance and negativity.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 21, 2010 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
I thought it was funny that this site is too pessimistic for a guy named world wide suicide
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 21, 2010 9:13 PM PST reply actions
i disagree with this
he was brought back to be the main catcher for the 1st half, batting 7th in the lineup where his type of hitting should play more efficiently, and in the 2nd half cede playing time to Buster Posey
I don’t really believe this, especially when you have Bochy managing. He played Whiteside over Posey at the end of the season to “keep him fresh” even when the game was a blow out, he would be catching pitcher’s that he was more familiar with and when Whiteside played a few days before. Bengie whines and has a poor attitude and he “has no intention of being Posey’s stand-in”. That to me signifies that he wouldn’t mentor the kid but bitch and moan about how his playing time is cut. He’ll start a vast majority of the season especially because of the incentives with his contracts based on games started. I can understand that maybe Posey isn’t completely ready, and I don’t think it’s completely horrible if he starts in AAA, but can you blame us for being so upset? He’s the best position playing prospect we’ve had in a while and I don’t think anyone’s been as excited about a prospect since Will Clark. I wouldn’t have cared if we signed Yorvit to hold over the starting job while Posey got more experience, but Bengie’s signing just represents everything I hate about the FO. They refuse to see that he’s old for a catcher, he’s out of shape, he can’t run for crap and has a horrible OBP. They refuse to let young guys get out and play and are adamant about signing old declining veterans “Oh yeah sure he had a horrible year last year but look at his upside! He’ll bounce back next year.” I know the pitching staff is comfortable with Molina but it’s irritating because they’re going to need to suck it up and get used to Posey catching because Bengie won’t be a giant for forever. But hey maybe I’m wrong, maybe somehow Bengie will be good this year batting 6th or 7th. Maybe even Posey could be so incredible in spring training he’ll win the job. But this is so unlikely that I’m not even going to hold hope for it. I’m not negative, I’m just so fucking pissed off with the decisions that they’ve made continuing to believe that mediocre players can make us real competitors.
01.19.2010
r.i.p. buster posey I really thought you had a shot
it is difficult to criticize the guy that criticized the criticizers.
Folks here criticize the giants, especially our beloved GM. But here we have a post criticizing the beloved naysayers. Reminds me of the guys that constantly whine about the whiners. There is symmetry in the Universe. Somewhere. But not on this giants team. The pitching is toward the top of the league, the hitting makes up for it by being among the worst. Now with this newly delivered team, the fielding and team speed are newly suspect.
Why be pessimistic about a team who hasn't won the world series since 1954.
And this team, this year, is far from the best team we have fielded. Far, far from the best team we have fielded.
by bradleybear on Jan 21, 2010 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
To set the record straight, I do not work for the Giants Organization. ha. I’m just a life long fan. The name ‘world wide suicide’ comes from the name of a Pearl Jam song.
by world wide suicide on Jan 22, 2010 10:22 AM PST reply actions
for the record
I hope you start posting more. Getting different perspectives in here is always a good thing.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I agree it can get a bit too negative around here sometimes (always).
But, you managed to pick the two main issues that it’s truly impossible to be negative about enough…
1)Sabean
2)Bengie
BTW maybe a thread could be started around Spring Training time where those who wish can pledge to try and be more positive during the upcoming season.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 22, 2010 11:42 AM PST reply actions
good idea
and if they fail to be more positive they have to do something embarrassing, like getting Tommy Lasorda’s signature tattooed on their neck.
by Into the Void on Jan 22, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
No furniture = no Pledge.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 25, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
Hilarious!
I find it funny how I go to McC more than I do other sports blogs BECAUSE it’s less negative and more funny. For those of you who think McC is negative, you simply have not seen how negative other sports blogs get. Sure, many comments on McC are of the negative variety, but they’re often funny. Humor helps us defuse and cope with all the stupid decisions that Sabean and Melonhead make in running this team. Other sites just have the negative and not the humor, and that’s no fun.
Plus, McC posters are so knowledgeable and I’ve learned so many statistics from this place. As a fairly recent baseball fan, I already know more than most baseball fans not on McC. This place, even amidst all the TWSS, +109, and BORK comments, is informative in a big way. Sure, there might be a lot of grougthink here, but I do think their points have been argued effectively.
Anyway, give us advice on how not to be negative about Sabean and Bochy. If you disagree and think they’re making good or average decisions, speak up. By not posting, you are simply letting that opinion that you don’t agree with more popular.
I can’t believe I just wrote a serious post here. I demand dingers for this gritty, veteran effort.
"I never watched baseball on TV. It's slow and boring. I'm not a fan. Never was." - Jeff Kent
THAT WASNT THE DINGERS HE WAS LOOKING FOR
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I dont have to take this
/migrates to purple row
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 23, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Damn
I wish I had found this post days ago, because it expresses a lot of what I feel. In fact, McCovey Chronicles did lose me, at least as someone that posts comments anymore. I still come back to read Grant’s posts occasionally, and although I don’t agree with him 100% of the time, his writing is funny and enjoyable, and his opinions well reasoned. But then I make the mistake of looking at the comments and then it’s, “get me out of here”. I particularly hate the “Sabean is a moron, and I could do better” tone that is so prevalent. 4/5 of our starting rotation, which is one of the best in MLB, is home grown. Sabean gets no credit for Sandoval either. While I admit that I am not a Sabean fan, thinking there are better GMs on other teams, I believe in being fair as well. Sabean is not the worst GM in the history of baseball, but reading the comments of some, you would think he was. GMs have to live with their mistakes, but fans can make all sorts of imaginary trades or acquisitions that could have been disastrous, that have no consequences, and can easily be forgotten. How many wannabe GMs sign Adam Dunn last off season? Eric Byrnes this season? I’m sure Sabean wishes he had the same 20/20 hindsight that some of the fans do.
One of the really big problems with last years team was not Bengie Molina at catcher; it was Bengie Molina batting in the four spot. This is already a big improvement on last year’s team. Did anyone consider that Huff is not only a high reward gamble, but insurance on whether or not Ishikawa breaks out? Should TI hit on the road next season like he did at home last year, then Huff is not so expensive that he couldn’t sit in favor of TI. I know, some people are absolutely sure Bochy will play Huff over TI no matter how TI hits, but I will wait and see first before assuming and criticizing.
And I agree with what you say about statistics. But don’t get me wrong either. I love statistics, and spend a lot time at baseball-reference looking and comparing stats. But I think you cannot judge a player purely on numbers, no matter how advanced they are. Especially defensive stats. That Fred Lewis is rated a good outfielder by defensive metrics tells you something about how reliable those numbers are. And there are people that will argue that Lewis is a good defender, and they will use those defensive metrics as if they were proof of his ability. But try and argue that stats aren’t the be all, end all, on this site and it’s like walking into Fenway with a Yankees cap.
I had a disagreement with the majority of posters here that led to my giving up contributing anymore. Not only was it the attitude, that we were not debating opinions, but facts, and I was just plain wrong, troubling, but I found myself arguing with people that were taking positions 180 degrees from each other. But there were too many posts telling me what a moron I was, and I felt like I was being shouted down for my blasphemy. Just look at some of the responses where you are criticized for referring to this blog as McCovey instead of the full name, even though everybody knows what you were talking about.
There are some here that I enjoyed exchanging comments with. But there are a lot of reasons to stay away, like the repetitive sophomoric humor that pervades, and gets tiresome. That, and the elitist tone of some, which also keep me away. But thanks for this post; it said a lot of things that needed to be said.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
"Sabean is a moron, and I could do better" tone that is so prevalent
Very few people here claim that they could be a better GM than Sabean. Most people here are smart enough to realize that the GM position goes beyond just signing players. However, the mutual feeling is that there are many people out there who would be a better GM than Sabean.
Sabean is not the worst GM in the history of baseball, but reading the comments of some, you would think he was
So, because Sabean is only merely bad, and not the worst all-time, we dont have the right to complain? We watch this team year after year fail to score runs because the washed up veterans that Sabean signs drop off a cliff. Every year, Sabean claims to want to make the team younger, but we have seen no sign of that. So, we are going to complain. Also, if you direct your attention to the right of your screen, you will see a poll, just recently posted, about the worst GM in baseball. Sabean is not first, not by a long shot. he is not even second. We realize there are worse GMs out there, but that doesn’t make us grateful to have Sabean.
One of the really big problems with last years team was not Bengie Molina at catcher; it was Bengie Molina batting in the four spot
It was also his sub-.300 OBP, one of the worst in the game, comparable to Alex Rios, who was dropped by his team, and Clint Barmes. Molina is not a good hitter.
I do agree with you on some points. I do believe the game goes past statsistics, but numbers dont lie. The argument about Fred Lewis is one that I will let someone else (jponry) make, but the basic idea is that Lewis is fast. And for every ball he drops, he gets to a few other balls that other outfielders would not have.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 26, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
Very few people here claim that they could be a better GM than Sabean.
And yet, the criticisms based on “why did he sign Joe Oldguy?”, and “why didn’t he sign Joe Otherguy?” are a big percentage of the posts that actually relate to baseball.
Every year, Sabean claims to want to make the team younger, but we have seen no sign of that.
The Giants average age is the 20th oldest in MLB, at least in 2009, and I don’t see that they got significantly older this year.
It was also his sub-.300 OBP, one of the worst in the game, comparable to Alex Rios, who was dropped by his team,
Molina’s OBP was bad I admit, and OBP was one of the biggest problem with the Giant’s offense last year. But if you are expecting big offensive numbers out of your catcher you are going about it the wrong way. But Molina didn’t even have the lowest OBP among catchers with 100+ games. Rod Barajas, who was available btw, had the lowest OBP at .258 . Dioner Navarro, and Pudge Rodriquez also had lower OBPs. Miquel Olivo was available as well, and had an OBP only slightly higher than Molina. Who was available to sign, on a one year deal, instead of Molina, that could give you any kind of offensive lift?
Rios was a salary dump, not left by the curb as you imply. And if the White Sox hadn’t claimed him several other clubs would have.
Lewis can recover on some mistakes because of his speed. But unfortunately, balls that he could have caught are sometimes not, because they’re misjudged initially. No defensive metric has a way to compute that. I would rather have a guy that can judge balls better, and make the routine catch, than the adventure that Lewis is in the field. Give me the solid guy, not the guy who has speed to make up for a bad read.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
And yet, the criticisms based on "why did he sign Joe Oldguy?", and "why didn’t he sign Joe Otherguy?" are a big percentage of the posts that actually relate to baseball.
Because I think Sabean does make some obviously bad decisions, that many of the people on this saw coming. There are people who will be wrong, and then change their stance, and I am aware that Sabean cannot do that. But the general feeling is Sabean should be better. And the most frustrating thing is that he keeps making the same mistakes.
The Giants average age is the 20th oldest in MLB, at least in 2009, and I don’t see that they got significantly older this year.
20th is more than half, and I would argue that they did get older this year. They will have Huff instead off Ishikawa, DeRosa instead of Velez/Lewis, and Freddy Sanchez instead of Burris/Frandsen/Downs. Im not saying these are not upgrades, but they are certainly older. And everyone on the team got a year older, without them signing a single player under the age of 33. If this team is not getting older, they are definitely not getting younger either.
Molina’s OBP was bad I admit, and OBP was one of the biggest problem with the Giant’s offense last year. But if you are expecting big offensive numbers out of your catcher you are going about it the wrong way. But Molina didn’t even have the lowest OBP among catchers with 100+ games. Rod Barajas, who was available btw, had the lowest OBP at .258 . Dioner Navarro, and Pudge Rodriquez also had lower OBPs. Miquel Olivo was available as well, and had an OBP only slightly higher than Molina. Who was available to sign, on a one year deal, instead of Molina, that could give you any kind of offensive lift?
Sure. Im grateful Sabean didn’t sign Barajas. but how many of those catchers are making 4.25 million next season? How many catchers with a better OBP are making less than that next year. Like you said, the Giants had a huge problem with OBP last year, so why does it make sense to resign Molina. Especially when you have Posey.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 26, 2010 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
20th is more than half,
How do you figure that 20th out of 30 is more than half?
You will note that I said 20th oldest, not 20th youngest. There are 19 teams in baseball whose average age is older than the Giants. There are only ten teams younger. It is also interesting to note that some of the winningest teams in baseball are also the oldest. The oldest team is the Phillies; second oldest is the Red Sox. The Yankees are the seventh oldest. With the departures and arrivals, I don’t see a big difference in last year’s Giants and the 2010 team.
There are many catchers that I would prefer to Molina as well. But how many better catchers were available? Who would you have signed instead of Molina? And remember, any catcher that is available also has to be willing to sign a one-year contract. How can anyone assume that Posey is ready now? It just isn’t as easy as everyone makes it seem, and I am only trying to be fair. My criticism of many of the people that commenter on this site is that they lack a certain fairness.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
But unfortunately, balls that he could have caught are sometimes not, because they’re misjudged initially. No defensive metric has a way to compute that. I would rather have a guy that can judge balls better, and make the routine catch, than the adventure that Lewis is in the field. Give me the solid guy, not the guy who has speed to make up for a bad read.
Well, yes, they do have a way to compute that. They record it as him not making an out, because that’s exactly what happened, while every time another defender DOES make that routine play, they do get credit for making the out, and defensive metrics compare how many outs guys make relative to their peers. Which is the next important aspect of why Lewis is a slightly above average defender – his peers. They suck. Adam Dunn, Manny Ramirez, Carlos Lee, Raul Ibanez….the list goes on. They play awful defense. LF is the second worst defensive position in baseball. Being a “slightly above average” fielder in LF still makes Lewis a below average fielder compared to the majority of MLB players, but again, we’re only comparing him to his position.
So anyways, what it’s really about is how many outs guys make, because that’s how defense actually makes a difference in winning or losing. The more outs a guy makes on defense, the more he’s helping his team win. You could also argue missing the routine ones and getting the tough ones helps the team more as the runners have to freeze on the routine ones, expecting them to be caught…but I dunno if that’s actually true or not, so we’ll leave that out of it for now.
As for Bengie, last year 24 difference C’s with 200+ PA’s posted a higher wOBA than he did. Does that mean there are 24 better hitting C’s than Bengie out there? Not necessarily. wOBA also isn’t park adjusted (is it really that hard to give us a wOBA+ Fangraphs?), so that affects things. What it suggests to me, though, is that there are plenty of C’s out there that can give us at least the production Bengie does, and really, I’m just sick and tired of seeing his hacking ways up at the plate, and while I support leaving Posey in the minors longer, I do think he could outhit Bengie right now (and at worst equal Bengie as a hitter). On a positive note – Bengie’s wOBA last year was .308. You know what Russell Maritn’s was? .307. Suck it, Russell Martin.
It seems to me that the difference between myself (someone who enjoys these comments) and the people that don’t enjoy them, like you and whoever wrote this fanpost, is that I enjoy these conversations – bringing up stats, going in depth to analyze player transactions and moves. I like the intellectual side of it, I like analzying the numbers, I like debating theories, opinions, methodologies and research to expand our knowledge…and I’m glad a lot of other Giants fans out there do, too. So that’s my take on it…..
Finally….Sabean. I honestly, confidently think, when it comes to MLB personnel, roster decisions, and maybe making trades (this is probably harder than I realize, I’ll acknowledge that), I could do better than Sabean. Is that his entire job? Of course not, there’s a lot more to being GM, so I wouldn’t ever say I’d make a better GM than Sabean. But the moves we can see, that happen at the MLB level, I do believe a strong knowledge of statistics will produce better results than what Sabean gives us, because everything Sabean does suggests he doesn’t have a strong grasp of statistical principles (nor does anything in his background suggest he would). Also, Sabean doesn’t appear to be much of a negotiator.
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2010 7:47 AM PST up reply actions
You missed my point,
and it’s probably my fault for not being clearer. I know they have a way to compute outs, both within and outside the zone. But take two scenarios; one with a player of average range, and another with the potential to make catches outside the zone. Both players make catches in the zone. Player 1, because he reads the ball correctly, and Player 2 because he has the speed to make up for an incorrect read. Neither player makes very many plays outside the zone. The first because he has only average range, and the second because his initial read is bad. Although he has speed to potentially make catches outside the zone he doesn’t, but his UZR still indicates that he is a good/average fielder. It isn’t fair to say he isn’t because he doesn’t make plays outside the zone, just as player 1 does not, but if I have a choice between those two, based purely on defense, then I want player one in the field. IMO player 1 is less likely to screw up a routine play at a crucial time.
I think it is too narrow to compare Lewis to only left fielders purely on defense. If Manny Ramirez, or Raul Ibanez hit like Fred Lewis, I doubt they would get much playing time. You cannot compare Lewis to Ramirez on defense only. Ramirez may hurt his team in the field, but his hitting makes up for it. If one is to compare Lewis defensively to other outfielders I would prefer to compare him to players with similar speed/potential range, and look at how many outs each makes outside the zone.
Bengie’s wOBA last year was .308. You know what Russell Maritn’s was? .307.
The very point I was trying to make is that stats are flawed; offensive stats are better than defensive stats, but both are still imperfect. If LA proposed a swap of Russell Martin for Bengie Molina, wouldn’t you jump at that trade. And yes I understand that Martin had a bad year and the stats are indicating that, but I also think some people read too much into a stat like that.
As I said I am not a Sabean fan. I think I would have made different choices as well, but unfortunately none of us has all the information to correctly judge. I saw more than one person criticize Sabean for not waiting longer and getting Adam LaRoche. It is entirely possible that LaRoche would not have signed with the Giants for anything close to what the D’backs gave him. I think LaRoche is hoping to put up big numbers in his one year in AZ in hopes of getting the 3/30 next year that he was asking for this year. I don’t think it’s fair to criticize Sabean for not waiting to try and sign LaRoche. People are constantly assuming a lot when they think of what they would do differently from Sabean.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
On your first point, from the way you describe it, it sounds like they both make the same number of outs on the same number of balls essentially, making them equal fielders? In that case UZR should rate them as equal (if they’re making the same number of outs)…and honestly, I wouldn’t care which I have. Maybe you’re right that Player 1 is less likely to screw up a routine play, but at the same time, maybe Player 2 is more to get a difficult ball that Player 1 cannot get (because he actually makes the correct read)….in the end, if they have the same chances at making an out, I’m indifferent which one I have.
On your second point – yeah, obviously guys like Manny make up for a lot with the bat. No doubt he’s a much, much better hitter (and overall player because of his hitting) than Lewis, at least without taking any age related decline he might have into account. We do account for this, we just record their offensive performances seperately from their defensive performances. The important thing to keep in mind is Fred is still an above average hitter (not by much, but he is). Last year wasn’t a good year for him (he was about 2% worse than average last season), but over his career, he’s been about 9% better than average strictly as a hitter.
Anyways, if you look at how a statistic like WAR is constructed, it compares Lewis only to his position defensively, true, but then it gives a positional adjustment (since not all positions are equal, SS’s are better defensively than 1B and harder to find, for instance) to make up for that. As I said, LF is the second worst position defensively in baseball (not counting DH), so we subtract value from Lewis for playing it. We subtract 7.5 runs of value for playing it, which is quite a bit. Compared to a CF (guys with similar speed/potential, I think we’ll both agree to this), which gets +2.5 runs, that’s a 10 run difference. So an average CF will get a 0 UZR, but +2.5 from positional adjustment, whereas Fred is above average for LF, let’s use +5 for an example, but then after you adjust for his position (-7.5), he’s down to -2.5 value defensively, 5 runs worse than the average CF, which is a substantial amount. So you are actually right that he doesn’t compare so favorably to guys with his speed/potential – and the statistics do back that up. Then we add in their offense seperately from that (this is where a guy like Manny makes up all his value and ends up being way more valuable than Lewis), and we get their value from that. So I think conceptually you have it right, and maybe you just haven’t looked into the statistics enough to realize they’re saying essentially the same thing?
The very point I was trying to make is that stats are flawed
I’m not sure why you think they’re flawed. Sure, I think Russell Martin is better than Bengie, and if I had the choice between Bengie and someone of the exact same age/ability of Russell Martin but not Russell Martin (because I’m compelled to hate him, of course), I’d choose Martin because of his past performance and age. But if I had to choose between Bengie’s hitting last year and Martin’s hitting last year, I’d choose Bengie. They were basically the same, with Bengie coming out just barely ahead. Martin just didn’t hit well last year, his OBP was good, but of his 126 hits, he only had 7 HR’s, 19 doubles, and 0 triples. Of Bengie’s 130 hits, 20 of them were HR’s, 25 were doubles, and 1 was a triple (yeah Bengie!). So yeah, that makes up for the huge OBP gap, and I’d rather have Bengie’s production than Martins’ production, from last year.
In terms of your last point, of course to a degree you have a point. We don’t have full information, we’re just fans, there’s a lot we don’t and can’t know. But it’s not like we can ever know that stuff, so all we can do is judge using the information we have. And what we have says LaRoche barely got paid more than Huff, despite being much, much better. Maybe we couldn’t have gotten LaRoche for that cheap, but maybe we could have, too, it’s not like we have any evidence saying we couldn’t either. What I do know is we offered him a lot more money than that, and if it was us waiting on his market to collapse instead of the DBacks, it seems logical that we would have been willing to offer him more than what he got….
Anyways, yeah, we do assume a lot, you’re right, but we don’t really have a better alternative. At this point Sabean’s destroyed our trust in him, so we don’t give him the benefit of the doubt. Is it fair? Probably not, but we seem to be right more often than not. And most people do at least use the best information available to fans, so we’re making our best educated guesses at this stuff.
Personally, one thing that bothers me is we always overpay compared to the market. We sign Renteria for 2 years/$18M then every other middle infielder signs for way less. We sign Huff than LaRoche (a much better player) signs for barely more. We sign Zito for $30M more than the next highest asking price (this based on rumors, of course, it’s the best info we have). While everyone else is paying ~$3M per projected marginal win this offseason, we’re paying $4M+ per win over replacement, despite having a player better than replacement at that position, so it’s more like $7M-$8M+ per marginal win. That’s why I think most of the criticisms are fair – maybe we couldn’t have gotten LaRoche for a similar deal to what he got, but given how many possibilities there are in free agency, we could have spent our money on some other combination of FA’s in a much, much more effective way however you look at it. We might throw LaRoche out there as the example, and we might be wrong about him specifically, but someone out there is available for a better deal than we got, heck, even the guys we got probably were available for less…
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
I’d chooseMartinplayer of same age/ability as Martin because of his past performance and age
I would never choose Russell Martin.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I don't want to be put in a position of defending Sabean.
As I said I think there are better GMs out there, but I think there are worse as well. I think he is slightly above average. Fire Sabean and we could wind up with a worse GM;.not that I wouldn’t be willing to take that risk. Why would LaRoche have accepted even $1m more to play with the Giants? It’s safe to assume why players sign one-year deals. Especially, if previous to signing, they were asking for what LaRoche was asking. To blame Sabean for not signing LaRoche is precisely the level of unfairness that pervades here.
I think if you ask most baseball people, defensively, they want the player that will make the routine plays on a consistent basis. That is why I would rather have DeRosa than Lewis in LF.
I think there would be a lot less pontificating on this site, which would be a big improvement, if the people that comment here realized that stats are flawed. The parks, weather conditions, the altitudes of those parks, etc play a huge roles in offensive stats, and they simply cannot be resolved by park factors. Park factors are averages. That might work for some, even a majority of hitters, but not all. It’s like a generalization. They might be true overall, but you cannot apply a generalization to each individual. Handedness, and ball trajectory and direction tendencies, of a hitter, are not reliably accounted for.
I am still waiting to hear who you would have signed for catcher, assuming Posey is not ready, that was available, and willing to sign a one-year deal.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
that stats are flawed
But they aren’t – the whole purpose of the stats is simply to record what actually happened. To that degree, they are correct. Now, I understand what you’re saying about the park effects, and I used to think that, too. You’re right that if we compared a hypothetical situation of “what would two players have done if their situations were swapped”, that we wouldn’t be able to exactly predict which of their hits would have fallen or been HR’s or whatever else, but that’s not the point of our park adjustments. Basically, park adjustments aren’t made to adjust what a player actually did , their purpose is to adjust how much value what he actually did provides his team. In a place like Coors Field, a solo HR is not the same as a place like AT&T from a value standpoint, because you expect a higher scoring game at Coors, and thus 1 run is less influential in who wins the game, which is why we adjust it downward. So the purpose is just to take what they actually did and give it a value based on the run value of the park. An average works fine in that situation.
I dunno, I guess when I see you say something like “stats aren’t perfect”, I think it’s more a misunderstanding of what our underlying purpose for our stats are. The basic purpose of stats is just to record what actually happened, and anything we do more than takes into account the limits of our knowledge (and anyone with a strong stats background understands just how large those limits are) – like forecasting the future, we know we can’t predict the future, so our forecasts are really just a range of possibilities/probabilities and we figure, what the hell, give us a big enough sample and we’ll try to be as close to the average of the sample as possible, knowing we’re going to be wrong every time (the probability of getting one data point of a continuous distribution is a limit = 0 as n goes to infinite)…but at least if on the whole we get the average right, our decisions will be as best as we can possibly make them.
I have a lot more to say, but I’m finding it difficult to express it. I just feel like people who understand stats in depth do have a good grasp of the limits of our knowledge (it’s all about probability distributions!), even if we (they?) come off as arrogant at times. I guess I’ll just leave it at that, I don’t really know what else to say, so I’ll move on to other points.
Why would LaRoche have accepted even $1m more to play with the Giants?
Well, that’s a lot of money. And we may be assuming he would take it, but you’re assuming he wouldn’t, so I think we’re essentially in the same boat here. Trying to evaluate the decision based on the imperfect information we have.
I am still waiting to hear who you would have signed for catcher, assuming Posey is not ready, that was available, and willing to sign a one-year deal.
I never looked through the available C’s myself, though I’ve seen a number of people suggest Gregg Zaun. Zaun’s projected to put up a .315 wOBA next year by CHONE, compared to .306 for Molina. Again, keep in mind when I say something like this – it’s not that I expect those projections to be correct – those projections are based on historical data and they’re attempting to be the best estimate of what will happen. We know full well sometimes guys do better, sometimes they do worse, it’s all part of the probability distribution, and knowing that’s going to happen and we can’t possibly know where either player will fall in the distribution, the best we can do is play the averages, and those are what lots of data tell us are the averages. Zaun signed a 1 year, $2.15M deal with an option for a second year at $2.25M, with a $.25M buyout – so it’s either a 1 year deal @ $2.4M (if we buy him out), or a 2 year deal at $4.4M, and we can decide if we want the second year after the season, which has value. There are no incentives listed by Cot’s contracts. Bengie signed a 1 year, $4.5M deal. There are no incentives listed, but we’ve been told he does have incentives, so I don’t know how to treat that exactly. We’ll ignore it (because we recognize we can’t fairly take it into account). So while Zaun is better than Molina, he has a way better contract. I don’t know if he was the best option or not, but he was a better option than Bengie.
So anyways, when it comes down to it, all this evidence is based on statisttical theories and theories of probability distributions, whose underlying assumptions recognize just how much we can’t know. We can’t know where a sample will fall on its distribution curve. We understand that, and we make our choices to reflect the best choice we can from what we do know. To a degree, I would say people with a strong statistical background actually recognize how imperfect our knowledge is much better than almost all non-statistically inclined people. A lot of them seem to me like they assume we can know how good a player is going to be, when the reality is we can’t and all we can do is play the averages to the best of our ability, which is what we try to do . When we ignore the stuff we don’t know, it’s not because we think our stats are perfect and we know everything, rather it’s that we recognize what we cannot know and we focus on what we can know (like all the statistical stuff we use) to make the most informed decisions we’re capable of.
I think that expressed some of my feelings decently, hope it was readable and clear enough to understand the point I’m trying to get at.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
There is a reason why players sign one-year contracts after asking for a three-year, $30m deal. They cannot get the deal they wanted, so instead of signing a 2 year deal for less, the player signs a one year deal in hope of putting up big offensive numbers. If he does put up big numbers, he stands a chance at getting the 3/30 deal he wanted all along. Yes, $1m is a lot of money, but in the bigger picture, it is nothing compared to what he might get. Gambling $1m to put up big numbers in a hitter’s park versus taking taking that $1m more to play in a park that is tougher on lefties, isn’t that big a gamble if his planned goal is realized. Neither one of us knows for sure what the various reasons were for LaRoche signing with the D’Backs, but I refrain from criticizing Sabean for this because of the possibility that this scenario is close to reality. In fact, I think it is the most likely scenario, so I find the criticism of Sabean in this regard to be excessive.
As you pointed out earlier, wOBA isn’t park adjusted, so Molina and Zaun might be closer than the numbers imply. Truth is I would have preferred Zaun, even though he is older than Molina, but I also think that the signing of Molina isn’t as egregious as a lot of people makes it out to be.
We will have to agree to disagree on the perfection of stats, or the lack thereof . I still do not see how park adjusted stats truly show how much Yankee stadium helped a guy like Babe Ruth. Because it is an average for the park , and right-handed hitters had a a very tough time there. In fact, in the old Yankee Stadium it was impossible to hit a HR to right-center. That’s how they could get away with having the monuments on the actual field; no balls ever went that far that they could be any kind of interference. Ruth was a great player, no doubt, but I believe that Willie Mays was far better. But the inflated stats that Ruth boasts, because of where he played, give him the edge. Ruth’s lifetime OPS+ is 207 compared to Mays’ 156. Ruth was not that much better than Mays.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
And I do get your first argument, and there’s definitely some merit to it. I just have no idea how much extra money it would take LaRoche to play in AT&T (if that’s his mentality, which we can’t be sure of). Would $2M do it? $3M? If we were willing to offer $17M over 2 years, we could probably have offered him $9M over 1 if we wanted. To a degree that defeats the purpose, of course, but I just don’t really see a way to know either way, so I think we’re better off not taking it into account then projecting our assumptions onto him. Plus, most GM’s aren’t idiots, they get that AZ helps hitters…
I did look at wRC+ just to confirm wOBA wasn’t misguiding us – it shows a substantial difference from last year, too, and wOBA for projections assumes park neutral. I’m not actually that against the Molina signing, some of my anger is just being fed up with his hacking ways, I can admit that. And almost all the rest is a combination of how the offseason as a whole has gone, and what Bengie represents – a failed strategy of going after multiple mediocre, overpaid veterans, not valuing OBP, creating an organization of hackers, etc…..so mostly it’s not even about Bengie as a player, at least for me….
I still do not see how park adjusted stats truly show how much Yankee stadium helped a guy like Babe Ruth.
I might not have done a good job explaining it. The main point is they don’t. They’re not supposed to. Honestly, the truth is we don’t know how much it helped him. The park adjusted stats are just putting his stats into a value context, not trying to adjust his numbers to show how the stadium helped him. I’ll try to explain it with an example. Take Larry Walker. In 2002, he put up an OPS+ of 150. It was some larger number before the park adjustment, let’s say 165 (making that number up). Since more runs are scored per game in Coors Field by both teams, the value of 1 run is less. So what the 150 OPS+ is telling us isn’t that Larry Walker would have put up a 150 OPS+ in an exactly average park, it’s telling us that all the runs his 165 OPS+ (pre-park adjustment) lead to helped his team win the same amount as all the runs a 150 OPS+ contributes to in an exactly average park. The 150 OPS+ leads to less runs, but each of those runs has more value since games are lower scoring in an exactly average park than Coors Field.
So the truth is we just don’t know how guys would have done in different environments. Each park is different, and some play to certain guys strengths and away from others that we just can’t know, at least not with the information currently available (hit f/x might change this, but that’s new). So we’re not even trying to figure that out with park adjustments, we’re just trying to determine how valuable their offense was based on the run environment. On average, I would guess park adjustments are a pretty good estimate of what a guy would have done elsewhere, but it’s definitely not perfect in that regard for all the reasons you’ve hit on – and we (at least some of us) know that, and acknowledge it.
I think this has been a productive convo so far, I’ve enjoyed it. Always good when people can have a reasonable, in depth conversation…
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
I might not have done a good job explaining it.
No, you explained it well; I think maybe the clarity problem is mine.
So the truth is we just don’t know how guys would have done in different environments. Each park is different, and some play to certain guys strengths and away from others that we just can’t know,
So maybe “flawed” isn’t the right word to have used regarding stats. Perhaps “limited” would have been better. I understand that stats are a record of what happened. My point being though, given that “we can’t know”, there are limits to what stats do tell us. If we can’t know how a park helped a certain hitter, then we also cannot know for certain how a proposed hitter will perform in our park. My belief that Adam Dunn would not have been a good signing is based on what I have seen of him along with his stats, and some of my opinion, in spite of them. I could be wrong. But to me that visual aspect is important. i thought Pedro Feliz would hit much better in Philadelphia than he did, especially his power numbers. I was wrong about that. That they are right in line with what he did here is interesting. In retrospect I think understand why, I also think pure stats would not have been able to predict this, or explain why.
I think there are a lot of people that will insist that some player is absolutely, positively something (good, bad, whatever), and base it totally on stats, when, as you pointed out, no one can really tell how much a park has helped or hurt a player simply with stats. (Excluding guys like Pujols, on which there is no debate.) That is my complaint; that many times on this site what someone has gleaned from stats become fact in their minds, when I see it as opinion; granted that opinion is well-informed, but opinion nonetheless.
I’m not sure if I am ready, or want, to come back to McCovey Chronicles, but if all my difference’s of opinion were like this one, I probably would not have left.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
Limited seems like a fair way of putting it. There is stuff we can’t and don’t know simply from recording past events. As time goes on we do a better job of recording exactly what happened (the invention of fielding metrics like TZ or UZR, adding pitch f/x, hit f/x in the future all go into this), but there are definitely gaps in our knowledge. I guess the thing with stats is they still do give us a ton of information to at least play the odds well. Not that there isn’t room to supplement the stats with scouting reports – more information, as long as the information is good quality, will always improve what you’re working with, and allow you to play the odds better.
I’ll also note that when you’re talking about fans, the truth is when most of us watch baseball….well, we aren’t exactly scouts, you know? For us, stats are far and away the most useful information we have, between the fact that some of us actually do have a solid statistical background and there’s so much quality, freely available content out there…
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 7:13 AM PST up reply actions
It's because they're a bunch of know-it-alls
McCovey Chronicles: a bunch of shellacking know-it-alls.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Actually it comes out to 3.683 X the hope, 4.1777 X the optimism...
Take a look at Athletics Nation for ten minutes and you’ll find twice the hope and optimism. The A’s stunk last year and are almost guaranteed to finish in last place this year, but the blog looks on things with a more even keel and is not afraid to voice optimism from time to time.
Wait… You want us to be like A’s fans??
/recoils in revulsion
Seasons will pass you by. I get up, I get down.
Optimism and the Giants
For me, I find it hard to be optimistic with Brian Sabean at the helm of the club. My thing going into the offseason was that I had 2 guys I knew Sabean would like that I would hate as a signing: Molina and DeRosa. I’ve warmed up slightly to DeRosa, but I feel Lewis would be a better option.
But Sabean’s job is to use every resource availiable to him. Stats, scouts, and his own 2 eyes. To me, it appears he uses one of those, and then the other 2 selectively. Stats, he uses for things like HR and RBI. Also, he uses it for older players and how they played well in the past. Scouts, he uses for draft, but not on the major league side of things (just an opinion, but that’s how I see things. And if you doubt this, look at Lincecum’s scouting. Sabes didn’t even watch him.) But he uses his own eyes far too much, and he uses things like “intangibles” that don’t really exist. It’s obvious to me that he is not using his resources, and it shows in his signings.
Another thing I dislike his the things about how we should be optimistic about Sabes signings. I’m as trustworthy a guy as they come. I trust the 49er brass, I believe in the Kings rebuilding, I think Tedford can get my beloved Golden Bears to the Rose Bowl. But Sabes hasn’t given us much reason to believe in him. He had his run of glory; he made some great trades and put a contending team out for quite awhile. But that’s over now. Other then a few isolated cases (Affeldt, draft- mainly relievers and pitchers in general). But he’s a terrible job of hitting. Other then Kent, Bonds, and Sandoval (who I think Sabes got lucky on- I doubt he did any scouting on him) we haven’t really had any offensive players that were “very good”. Hell, we barely have any “average” players. And lately, he hasn’t made any good moves. The offense still isn’t good, hell even league average despite dipping 24 milliion plus 2 of our top pitching prospects into it. Sabean is an atrocious developer/scout of offensive talent.
So excuse me for my negativity. But when I have very little reason to believe in Sabes when it comes to his history or how I’m seeing resources allocated.
He was 5-15 with the Oakland Raiders and got fired before his second season was over. He went 7-6 in his one year at Tennessee in a season when the SEC wasn't terribly good. He lost at home to UCLA; the Bruins only road win in the Pac-10 came at Washington State.
LOL ironic recs.
I knew they were from the title of the post. just checking.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Mine wasn’t — I actually agree with the dude/tte.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Feb 1, 2010 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
You should probably read the comments.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
but could we please see less ‘woo’s me’ and more overall optimism.
I agree, Im sick of all the “woo’s me”. Knock it off, guys! Whatever the fuck it is, stop doing it!
I mean the Giants have a lot of great things going for them this year
Tim Lincecum
Matt Cain
Jonathon Sanchez (maybe)
Buster Posey (maybe)
Pablo Sandoval
Madison Bumgarner (maybe)
I have just listed everything we as Giants fans have to be hopeful about. It’s fucking stupid to be optimistic and hopeful when the team sucks on offense and the people in charge did exactly FUCK ALL to fix that problem.
Sorry for not thinking everything smells like roses when our team is run by people who think Mark DeRosa, Aubrey Huff, and Bengie Molina are ways to upgrade an offense. That is fucking retarded.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
And sorry if all my points have been mentioned earlier
it’s late and I’m too tired to read everything. Also, lazy.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire. Rescuing moribund Giants lineups since 2008
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Jan 30, 2010 11:53 PM PST up reply actions
Read 'em and weep:
Rob Neyer, who knows a thing or two about baseball, including numerical analysis thereof, today remarks:
The Giants have done essentially nothing to improve an attack that finished last season 14th in the National League in slugging percentage and 16th in on-base percentage. In a hitter’s park, no less! I just don’t see that formula leading to another 88-win season.
That follows his citation of the CAIRO projections showing the G’s finishing in a weak fourth place (barely ahead of the Pads) with 75 wins.
Which sounds about right to me.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Interesting take. I know we weren’t an 88 win “true talent” team last year, but we were definitely better than 75 wins….and I think if anything, we upgraded slightly or stayed the same, so 75 seems at least 5 too low to me…thoughts?
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 7:14 AM PST up reply actions
yeah
i pretty much get rousted every time i post something on this blog. pretty weak.
by nhlogan on Feb 1, 2010 3:08 PM PST reply actions
I guess it would be kind of mean of me to point out that you spelled roasted wrong, then.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Feb 2, 2010 8:18 AM PST up reply actions
Perhaps he types in his sleep and means he is “woken up” by the comments!
WHY IS BENGIE?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 2, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
That would be roused.
Rousted seemed appropriate to me (eg: the cop rousted the shady character from his spot on the street corner), especially if he’s banned each time he posts, or mod-scolded, or something.
Or he could see this as a battle that he loses in a rout.
Or perhaps he gets re-routed to anther site when he clicks “Post.”
I’m really stretching it here, aren’t I?
Yo yo yo... I'ma letchoo finish, but Bochy and Sabean build the greatest lineups of all time. All time!
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 2, 2010 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
TWSS
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
rousted totally works
roasted is a different word
by nhlogan on Feb 3, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
Never forget The Lady
Interesting take. I know we weren’t an 88 win "true talent" team last year, but we were definitely better than 75 wins….and I think if anything, we upgraded slightly or stayed the same, so 75 seems at least 5 too low to me…thoughts?
Two thoughts:
1) The stats from last year show a roughly 84-win team, but . . . just as Lady Luck can give a team more wins than their stats justify, so also can she give a team berrer raw stats than the players’ established abilities justify. That was so last year.
2) “Upgraded slightly”? Even “stayed the same”? I no theeenk so . . . .
Even if CAIRO’s 75 is low, they’d be doing well to get to 80.
Mind, all this is for the team more or less as it stands. It’s unlikely anything positive will happen, but there are a lot mediocre players/pitchers being stockpiled, presumably to be run in there when any decent guy has one or two bad games: never overlook an opportunity to weaken the team, that’s the spirit. And, as someone elsewhere has remarked, the G’s are only one Lincecum-or-Cain ligament pull away from the deepest part of the cellar.
(Thank you for the nice words upthread. When the season ended, I got involved in the 14 or so web sites I maintain that had all gotten way behind—most still are—owing to watching 150 to 160 games. I hope to be able to pop in here from time to time, but not steadily till Opening Day.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
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