My two cents
by slcgiant on Jan 2, 2010 7:36 PM PST
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PrintI'm not sure that anyone should care what I would like to see with the rest of the off season but I've read everyone else's rosterbation crap :) so now it's my turn. Enjoy.
Despite the fact that it has become a punch line to trade Cain I still think it makes the most sense for the franchise. My dream trade is Matt Cain, Jeremy Affeldt and maybe 2 million for Smoak and Feliz. If the Rangers offered those two for Josh Johnson then this is doable. It really solidifies Texas' pitching and the offense is already packed.
Knowing Sabean (nor Daniels) is not likely to make this trade then another option I would like to see the Giants consider is a trade for Mike Lowell to play 3B next year. The Sox will eat most of the salary and take a relatively low level prospect to make this deal. Although I wouldn't hate Adrian Beltre I don't believe he would be worth the money on a multi year contract. I suppose this moves DeRosa to LF which isn't ideal but wouldn't be awful either.
I'm absolutely on board the Kiko Calero bandwagon and would also like to see Bedard or Sheets. Would probably prefer Bedard but both are nice risk/reward relatively low dollar signings.
I also think there are some relatively undervalued players who could possibly be had. Brandon Wood or Reid Brignac would be ideal. I also believe that Delmon Young is going to blow up. Unfortunately, he probably wouldn't blow up with the Giants because he is too much of a free swinger and there is no one on the team to be a take a walk mentor.
I'm not terribly fond of the LaRoche idea as I'd rather they just kept Garko. Unless he could be had reasonably cheap, which might be likely this year, I'd prefer they ride with Ishi, Bowker or Guzman and see what happens. I could get excited about a one year deal for Tejada to play 3B and then move Sandoval.
I don't care whom the Giants sign to play C for a few months to delay Buster's arb clock. I'd probably prefer Yorvit but anything more than a year and a couple million would be way too much.
Only 47 more days until pitchers and catchers report. Here's hoping the next decade is kinder than the last 5.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Texas Rangers Trading Partner
Tim Lincecum for Andrus, Borbon, Feliz and Smoak.
More Texas stuff: the Rangers/Red Sox deal involving Lowell is basically on hold until ST. Then the Rangers can scout the health of Lowell.
An addition of Kiki Calero would provide Jonathan Sanchez a wingman.
Wood, Brignac and Young are Exhibit A why teams should never have a player that should be consider untouchable,
why the hell would you deal tim
that is the stupidest thing you can do
because
if it comes to 2012 and beyond and they still have no offense, he and Cain (or at least one) are going to take a hike anyway and leave the Giants with nothing.
Alternately, even Herschel Walker was traded, although even last year’s Giants offense isn’t as bad as that Cowboy team was.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 3, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
For the love of God, the Rangers have denied that report. They would not have offered it. If they had, the Marlins would not have turned it down. It didn’t happen.
"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
I realize the Rangers have denied the report but that doesn’t mean it did (or didn’t happen).
Regardless of whether they offered the trade for Josh Johnson the trade proposal is certainly a fair offer. The Texas Ranger’s offense (assuming a healthy Hamilton) with Cain, Feldman, Harden, Holland and Hunter would make for a nasty team.
It’s not a fair trade. Cain has 2 years left on his current contract (one, plus a no-brainer option). You might find a team that would give up a top prospect for that, but no team in MLB would offer you two.
"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
I think you made my argument for me. Not only is Cain young and potent but also incredibly cheap over the next two years.
You say no team would give up two top prospects for a stud pitcher. Let’s check the tote board.
Bedard was traded for Jones, Tillman, Sherrill and two other prospects.
Halladay was traded for Drabek, Taylor and d’Arnaud.
Haren was traded for Anderson, Gonzalez, Eveland, Smith, Carter and Cunningham.
Colon was traded for Sizemore, Lee and Phillips.
Sabathia was traded for LaPorta, Green and Bryson.
For more trades see Jake Peavy, Johan Santana, Cliff Lee, etc.
I am willing to grant you ResDog that the Rangers probably wouldn’t make this deal but I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. Most of the above pitchers were traded when they were more expensive and only under contract for one year (Bedard being an obvious exception but they also netted the best return).
All those pitchers are/were much better than Cain and two of those trade have gone down as two of the worst trades of all time for the team getting the one player.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Thanks for the correction Gobroks. When the trade was first announced everyone assumed that the PTBNL would be Green but it ended up being Brantley.
I’ll grant you Marcello that there are two incredibly awful trades in Bedard and Colon. However, I don’t know that I agree with you that all of those pitchers are/were much better than Cain. Are/were Bedard and Haren really that much better?
Granted Sabathia and Halladay were better pitchers but Sabathia was a three month rental and Halladay only had a year left. Cain has two at a total of 10 million.
PS—I forgot the Mulder trade who netted Haren, Calero and Barton.
Are/were Bedard and Haren really that much better?
Yes. By far.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
Bedard is by far better than Matt Cain?
What exactly are you looking at? Not ERA+ and certainly not durability. Please explain.
"Forget it Donny, you're out of your element"-Walter Sobchak
by icanplaythird on Jan 3, 2010 1:39 AM PST up reply actions
I’d rather have Cain than Bedard. Plus with Cain only being barely 25, he’s probably pretty coveted by most GM’s. He’s very underated.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Jan 3, 2010 2:45 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t see how you can make a case that Bedard at the time of that trade was a better pitcher than Cain, much less far better. Mostly, their stats were pretty comparable (aside from Bedard’s huge outlier 10.9 k/9 in 2007). Cain typically has a slight advantage in ERA+ consistently, and a little better h/9. Bedard’s bb/9 had been going down lower than Cain’s, and his k/9 was typically just under 8 (again until ’07). Their HR/9 were very comparable.
But then Cain has the huge advantage in consistency and durability. Bedard has never thrown 200 IP in a season and he has only one year (the 196 IP in 2006) that’s higher than Cain’s lowest IP total. Not surprisingly, he’d also been on the DL in every season of his Baltimore career, including the final 5 or so weeks of his breakout ’07 campaign.
So I have to humbly ask how throwing fewer innings at a lower ERA+ equates to being a “far” better pitcher.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Well, simply put, ERA+ is a poor way to measure pitcher performance. Defense has so much to do with ERA (and therefore ERA+), that it doesn’t accurately reflect how good a pitcher is by himself.
If you look at when he was traded, Bedard was coming off two seasons when he pitched ~380 innings and Cain had thrown 390. So, while Bedard still had durability issues, he had pitched 180+ innings the last two seasons. Plus, his most recent season at the time appeared to be the step forward, from good to great, most thought he was capable of. Anyways, over those two years, Bedard put up a FIP of about 3.40, while pitching in the AL East. Matt Cain, in the NL West, was (and still is) basically a 3.90 FIP pitcher.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
But we’re not talking about trading the Cain of 2006-07, we’re talking about trading the Cain of 08-09 and he’s thrown 435 innings the last two years, which is a fairly significant difference from Bedard’s totals.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
True
Bedard 2006 – 2007: 10.4 WAR
Cain 2008 – 2009: 7.3 WAR
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I never said Bedard wasn’t better than Cain, I just said that using Cain’s 2006-07 as evidence that he’s not any more durable than Bedard is silly.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Ok, but in talking in terms of trade market, do you believe that a) that’s enough of a difference to call “far better” as in: nobody on the free market could fail to notice that these two guys belong in distinctly different groups; and b) that every front office in baseball would look at FIP to evaluate worth rather than shiny shiny ERA or merely reputation (wow that guy’s good!)?
Especially when factoring in that Bedard had missed a considerable portion of the end of his breakout season with an injury that any willing trade partner should (have) considered could be a significant issue with him moving forward?
I certainly agree with your post above that that was one of the worst trades in recent history, but I can’t see that comparing Eric Bedard of the winter of ‘08 and Matt Cain in the winter of 2010 have such vastly different trade values that one can’t imagine getting a great package (of say 2 premium prospects) for moving Cain.
Now I don’t think the Giants could do that from a PR standpoint because it sends a definite “rebuilding” message to the fanbase after Neukom has quite clearly mandated that we should be competing this season, but that’s a different discussion entirely.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I’m pretty confident in saying that the FO that traded for Bedard had no clue what FIP was. Or at least had no interest in it.
I think Cain has pretty good trade value right now, but I don’t think it’s hard to see how Bedard had more at the time he was traded.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Minor Correction
It was Brantley, not Green, that went to Cleveland for Sabathia.
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Brandon Wood is probably going to be the Angels everyday 3B
I agree with Calero and Lowell (for the right price). Delmon Young would also be ok for the right price.
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2010 10:38 PM PST up reply actions
Is Merope getting a royalty for every one of these?
I’m starting to wonder
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 3, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
post fail
if Merope is bribing posters to come over with these.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 3, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
I’d be ok with Lowell as a platoon option at 1B and occasional fill in at 3B, but I doubt his 3B defense is really going to be better than Pablo’s. While his bat has been pretty consistent, his health hasn’t been nearly consistent enough to have him be counted on as an every day type middle of the order hitter.
Thing A
No offense intended, but it’s utterly ridiculous to post trades like Matt Cain for minor leaguers while Brian Sabean is the GM of the Giants. Even Bill Neukom would not be on board with any trade that compromises the present, no matter how promising you might think it would look in the future.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Jan 3, 2010 5:24 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Agreed
All of the trades listed above involved teams in rebuilding mode trading an established star for prospects who were judged to be a number of years away from contributing in the big leagues.
I’m not sure the FO sees themselves as being in a pure rebuilding phase any more (or if they ever really did for that matter), especially given their jump in wins last season.
Besides, do any of us feel confident the Giants would be able to pull off as impressive a haul as some of the teams listed? I would be afraid, very afraid, that the Giants would get hoodwinked and trade established major leaguers for a package of Grade B prospects who in the end would not justify the deal. Just like I would be wary of the Giants trading their own blue chip prospects for established major leaguers in decline.
by baseballjunkie on Jan 3, 2010 6:52 AM PST up reply actions
yeah, that’s definitely the problem. If the Rangers actually come to you offering Feliz and Smoak, there would probably be a voice in the back of your head telling you that maybe the Rangers have realized they’re not that good. Elite prospects are like gold these days. They’re going to turn into star players at big league minimum costs. Why would somebody want to trade them?
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
Thanks Kent
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis. To pass the time during the offseason I decided to try my hand at blogging about photography and music.
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