LaRoche takes less money to avoid AT&T?
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 9:24 AM PST
Email
PrintThe Diamondbacks signed first baseman Adam LaRoche to a one-year deal, according to Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. SI's Jon Heyman says LaRoche will be paid $4-5MM. The D'Backs were not known to be interested or able to afford LaRoche, but the move makes sense as it allows them to use Conor Jackson in left field and give Brandon Allen more minor league seasoning.
LaRoche reportedly turned down a two-year, $17.5MM deal from the Giants earlier this offseason, as he was aiming for three years. The 30-year-old hit .278/.357/.487 with 24 home runs in 610 plate appearances for the Pirates, Braves, and Red Sox. He earned $7.05MM in '09. He was a Type B free agent, but the Braves chose not to offer arbitration.
So one year/$4-$5 is better than two years/over $8 million a year?
What a chick. And people still bash Sabean for not trying to bring stars in? How can he when he has to grossly overpay? If LaRoche turning down more years with more money to go to a worse team isn't enough proof, I don't know what is.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
470 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
So
This either makes Sabean look totally inept, or there is some shenanigans going on here.
I would much rather have LaRoche on this deal than Huff on his.
Even when we would have obviously had to overpay with money and years?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
I think by “this deal” he means the one the D-backs got him on.
by Monkeyking42 on Jan 14, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
Or the 1B market dried up once the Giants were out of it. I too would rather have LaRoche though.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Has anyone ever noticed....
….that the common denominator in all of these Epic Fails is Sabean. Perhaps he’s the problem, no?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
Unpossible!
He wouldn’t have been given an extension if that were the case.
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
I thought we established that Fred Lewis is the problem.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
by ResDog on Jan 14, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
???
How does this make sabean look inept…what could you have done better???
by 07 playoff push on Jan 15, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
Hey Farva whats the name of that restaurant with all the goofy shit on the walls?
Oh you mean Sheninagans?
I used to like the Patriots and Dodgers, then my balls dropped
by Newcomb29(EDGE) on Jan 15, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
It’s simple supply and demand. He thought he could do better than the Giants offer. The Giants dropped out, shifting the demand, leaving him with a worse offer with then ne he rejected initially. Or maybe he wants a one year deal now that he’s seen he isn’t getting the money he wants so he can get back into the market again next year, figuring things will be more back to normal (free agents this year are being paid quite a bit less than they were two years ago). There are lots of factors in play – avoiding AT&T might not be one of them. There also is a legitimate reason for him to avoid AT&T – he’s a lefty, and AT&T suppresses HR’s by lefties. That doesn’t excuse the horrible lineup Sabean’s given us over the last….what, 5, 6 years?
If LaRoche turning down more years with more money to go to a worse team isn’t enough proof, I don’t know what is.
I think you need a class on what constittues actual evidence, much less “proof”…
Well said
correlation =/= causation
I think the strategy to put him back in the market next year is sound, and to play for a team that will (probably) get a lot of attention this year is smart, even at the discounted pay rate.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Jan 14, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
And if you’re going onto the market next year, much better to do it after a year in a place like Arizona to inflate your stats than a place like AT&T, that in addition to being neutral overall, will take away your HR power…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
I'll inflate his damned stats.
/makes plans to sabotage LaRoche residential AC system
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
What is it that makes Chase Field such a hitter’s park? Is it the dimensions, elevation, etc…? Perhaps the lack of cheering so hitters can concentrate?
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
I think a lot of it is that it’s so dry and hot. Ball travels well, you don’t see rainy conditions, it’s hot for the whole baseball season not just summer months, etc…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
It’s possible that pitches break less in the dry heat, too, making them easier to hit…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
The heat should make pitches break less, but I think the dry should actually help. H2O is lighter than other stuff in the air, so humid air has more wind resistance.
I don’t know much about the physics involved here, but theoretically, it seems to me like breaking less in dry air as opposed to more humid air would fall along the same lines as breaking less in thinner air compared to thicker air (like what happens at Coors)?
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
Schilling used to specifically request that the roof be manipulated according to his whims.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Not surprising, he is a huge douche like that.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
Well, to his credit he came a long way from scrambling to get dressed after getting summoned and asking how to pitch to the batter only to be cornered by a teammate later who advised him in no uncertain terms to “FUCKING BE PREPARED TO PITCH!”
It does seem he did just that, to the nth degree.
/nods to visiting Snakepit dignitaries
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Right. Humid air is thinner air. H2O, atomic weight 10, weighs less than N2, atomic weight 14, or O2, atomic weight 16, or CO2, atomic weight 22. A given volume of gas under the same pressure will always contain the same number of molecules, so the atomic weight of the molecules in question determines the density of the air.
Wow it was just a dig at the fans here in AZ and you guys eally took it in another direction.
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
I love this place
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 14, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
+1
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
McC Science Class...
I love this place :-)
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
I sure hope the 2010 Giants batters
will be able to at least hit their atomic weights.
by baseballjunkie on Jan 14, 2010 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Well,
Density is going to be a product of pressure. What you’re talking about is viscosity.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
???
We’re assuming the pressure is constant. The question is, given the same air pressure, which is more dense, humid air or dry air? And the answer is humid air.
Or did I fall in a chasm?
Well, I guess what I mean
Is that Density is relatively unimportant, Viscosity is what matters when you are talking about baseballs flying through air.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
That's hot.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, and air is a fluid.
And the more viscous a fluid is, the more drag losses one has traveling through it.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
I just want to know if humidty should cause a ball to break more or less (though an interesting note I just thought of – a ball backspinning off a bat will carry more where the pitch is breaking more)
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
Check this out
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2b.html
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
I should probably mention that this is a curveball simulator and that it seems to indicate that greater atmospheric pressure = greater break.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
That’s what I was thinking… I found the curveball simulator while looking for explanations more scientific than ‘the seams grab better in higher pressure’.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
On the other hand
Lower humidity also mean higher air density, since most of the other components of the atmosphere are denser than gaseous water.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Yeah, that’s what I said, way up at the top of this thread. In Arizona, the high temperature and moderately high altitude will hurt curveball break, but the dry air should help.
Nasa’s simulator seems to think humidity has a negligible effect… probably has more effect on the weight of the ball than the break. The thing I didn’t expect was lower temp = more break.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
Lower temp = more break would be consistent with the proposition that greater air density = more break.
Re: humidity, it could be that humidity has a small impact on the air density relative to other factors, but I definitely have seen plenty of articles over the years that claim it is easier to hit HRs when it is humid.
In the simulator I was holding the pressure constant and varying the temperature only… much less of an effect than varying the pressure, but still an effect.
I wonder how humidity helps home runs? Humid air is less dense, but the ball would be a little heavier. It should take more energy to send the ball any given distance… Maybe because high humidity correlates with hot days? Warm baseballs are bouncier…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 7:10 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously, what’s wrong with these people, trying to actually learn about baseball related stuff. What idiots.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 7:23 PM PST up reply actions
But the science does seem to kind of take away the fun simpleton aspect of the game. Who cares about a player’s DTTPS (Distance tobaccy travels per spit) or NGPI (nut grabs per inning)? Can’t we all just be happy looking at baseball cards and going to the ballpark to drop $700 on a couple brewskies and hot dogs?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions
Different people enjoy different aspects of the game. While I’d guess we all enjoy going to the ballpark and dropping $700 on a couple brewskies and hot dogs, when it comes to discussing baseball, we all have our different preferences. Some prefer ESPN’s banter. Some prefer in depth scientific analysis. Others apparently prefer finding out personal information about players, like if they have a wife (google someone like Chase Utley and the first thing that pops up in google’s suggestions as you type his name is Chase Utley wife)….so yeah, what can I say. Are you surprised to find the blogosphere crowd tends to lean towards the intellectual aspects of the game?
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
I was joking, I enjoy sabermetrics and do see their place. I don’t however, enjoy ESPN’s banter. And who hasn’t Googled Chase and DeRosa’s wives?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
Gas Laws! I was writing a gas laws lab just a few days ago.
dude, you may just be my favorite poster on this blog now
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
Also add
Second-highest ballpark in the majors helps too.
Back to lurking again.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jan 14, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
Narcissist.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Evan, don’t be worried about your small difference. It’s what you do with it.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
Hm, 1100 feet would change the air density by about 3%. It’s non-trivial to determine the impact of that on the flight of a baseball, but it doesn’t seem like it should do much. (shrug) I’ll take your word for it.
You’re talking about a 10+ foot difference when you extent that 3% out to 300+ feet….
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly
And let’s not forget that it’s not likely to be a linear relationship, either.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not expecting it to be linear. But I don’t know whether the effect would be greater than or less than it would be if it were linear. If a 3% difference in density results in the ball flying 10% farther, that’s huge, but if it’s 1%, that’s probably not worth worrying about.
My only point is even a 3% farther travel is a lot….
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn’t say a lot, but it probably is significant. I’m just thinking that variation in the physical dimension of the parks is more than 10 feet, so it shouldn’t be a huge deal. And like I said, since I don’t know enough about how increased air density —> increased air resistance —> ball travels less far, I don’t know if the effect would be less or greater than linear.
Back in the days of the Firebirds ( Giants AAA before the Dbacks, loved that logo) the dry air and high elevation made people very cautious about AAA numbers. The Park now is nicer but I imagine that part of things have stayed constant.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Heat + dry + elevation also makes New Mexico’s AA team (Albequerque something or other, don’t even think I spelled the city right) the biggest joke of a hitters park in all of professional baseball. Just the fact that I know that off the top of my head should demonstrate just how ridiculous it is.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
/ nods
I remeber when it was the Bums AAA
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
The Albuquerque Isotopes are the Bum’s 3A Club. They bought the rights back last year. The Las Vegas 51’s were the Dodger’s affiliate for about six years, but now belong to the Blue Jay’s.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
You had to see Francisco Grande.
A spring training venue the Giants had out in what used to be the middle of nowhere down by Casa Grande in the Seventies
And when I say “the middle of nowhere” I am not exaggerating – there weren’t even houses within miles.
Picture Scottsdale Stadium in the middle of the Sahara. Or the Sonora.
What evah.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:35 AM PST up reply actions
Just pictures. I had forgotten about that place. I follow a franchise the keeps re-inventing stupid don’t I?
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
In the late Seventies I used to drive a dry goods delivery route here.
I still remember happening upon a baseball stadium in the middle of freaking nowhere. It looked so out of place…
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
The new Goodyear complex
Is kinda like that, pretty much in the middle of desert, just beyond Goodyear Airport.
No, I didn’t know Goodyear had an airport either.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jan 14, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Well if the Giants had designed it that airport would only built for dirigibles.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
/huge manatee
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 14, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
Or a playoff bound football team in their backyard.
/looks around nervously
/remembers he’s physically sitting in Mesa, AZ
/relaxes visibly
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Do I need to put on pants for this?
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
Nah, just wear your dress chaps and you’ll be fine.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 14, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Right.
The ones with the lunatic fringe.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
This is probably a case were agent counted too much on Sabean bidding against himself. Look at next year’s free agent class for 1st basemen and LaRoche is going to have a very hard time standing out in that group.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
Take out Pujols and Johnson, and that’s not too much competition. All he really needs is for the market to correct itself (not sure if it’s necessarily “incorrect” right now, though) back to where it was a couple of years ago, and he’ll probably get a better contract offer. Probably his last shot at a good long term contract, so it makes sense to try to get back out on the market as early as possible instead of waiting an extra year…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
Pena, Berkmen, Russell, Overbay. There is a lot of middle of teh pack there were this off season LaRoache was the Belle of the ball at that position.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
Except for Pujols (who’s obviously not going to be on the market) and Pena (who will be 33 and is in no way a sure thing), those guys seem very comparable to LaRoche, Delgado, Huff, Glaus, Branyan, et al.
I agree with that. So what LaRoche is doing is betting he beats the non Pojols field by a large ammount. I would say those are mighty long odds. If any one of them doesn’t beat the field they will all be ina scrum for job at what ever tehy can get.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
I guess this year’s crop is suffering from the fact that everyone except LaRoche and Branyan got hurt or had an off year all at the same time. Huff, Delgado, and Glaus would have looked a lot more appealing at this time last year.
But in the list below, almost everyone is well into their 30s, and quite a few of them are inevitably going to tank in 2010.
And worst case he takes two 1 year deals. I’m just not seeing much risk involved.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
That is a lot fo bodies looking for a first base job. If he does not light the work on fire he could squeezed ina Dan Johnson sitution real fast. He has real chance of not making $10M combined for ‘10 &’11. And his odss probably get worse if the Astros decide to part was with Berkman or some oneelse in teh group post a 45 HR or 1100 OPs season.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
Eh, between how old most of those guys are, the number of DH spots that are always open…I don’t think he’ll have too big of a problem. I think his bigger problem is he’s not all that good, and not many GM’s besides Sabean are willing to overpay….
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
***Ding,Ding,Ding***
I think his bigger problem is he’s not all that good, and not many GM’s besides Sabean are willing to overpay….
Sabean seems to be unclear on the concept of negotiation.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
LaRoche screwed up
LaRoche wanted a 3 year 30 million deal that’s why he turned down
the Giants offer. He thought he could get the Giants and Bal into
a bidding war. Sabean pretty much said F-off and signed Huff.
LaRoche and his agent over played their hand and are forced to
take the D-Backs offer. He’s not going to get a 3 year deal in 2011
either. Too many good free agent 1B
First basemen
Garrett Atkins (31) – $8.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Lance Berkman (35) – $15MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Wilson Betemit (29)
Jorge Cantu (29)
Adam Dunn (31)
Troy Glaus (34)
Wes Helms (35)
Eric Hinske (33)
Aubrey Huff (34)
Nick Johnson (32) – $5.5MM mutual option
Paul Konerko (35)
Adam LaRoche (31)
Derrek Lee (35)
Doug Mientkiewicz (37)
Lyle Overbay (34)
Carlos Pena (33)
Albert Pujols (31) – $16MM club option with a $5MM buyout
Ty Wigginton (33)
http://forums.sfgiantsworld.net/giants/
I don’t think the the 2011 market is really going to be as big as it looks at first glance. After options are picked up and extensions signed, a few of those guys will be headed to the DH/bench pasture, while others won’t get multi-year contracts.
Assuming he has a decent 2010, a younger (31), proven guy like LaRoche may get the years he wants. The money? We’ll see.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Jan 14, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, barring accidental skilsaw mutilations, what are the chances that Berkman and Pujols don’t get those options picked up? I would think very slim.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 14, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
I heard Berkman loves the diversity that is the essense of San Francisco.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Really? I heard Pujols does! Looks like they’ll be fighting to see who’s willing to take a bigger discount to play with us…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
$15MM on Berkman on the team that is probably up for sale if not a gimme.
I agree Pujols is not going to be there. But you have probably have Johnson, Pena, Russel, Overbay with longer shots on Dunn ( should DH but who knows), Konerko, Lee, Wigginton, Glaus. Tath isa lot of bodies to bet there is not one that has ’09 worse then LaRoache.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
Johnson’s option will get picked up, and if it doesn’t, he’s not going to be a hot commodity for the exact reason his option wasn’t picked up…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
a) it is the Yankees were are talking about. Johnson could have good year and still be replaced.
B) He would another body that would be not at the front of the pack looking for a First baseamn job. There is a real mob of them that realy not that much better then the rest of teh mob and a lot of teams will go in house unless teh price is very cheap.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
I know it’s unlikely, but I’d really like to sign C-Pain.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Still, there are some good names on there outside of the really big ones. LaRoche isn’t necessairly worse than them, but he’s also not clearly better – he might be the fourth best or so. I don’t think his market will be much better next year
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:24 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well, I’m sure he’s hoping the market as a whole is much better next year, making “his” market better with it…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Still, how many teams are going to be in te market for a 1b/dh?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:44 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I can think of one
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
Lol the perpetual search…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:48 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 14, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
lol
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
Boulder-skull
Rock-biter
it all makes sense!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Most AL teams could use a DH, and there are always teams in the market for a 1B. Like the San Francisco Giants, for instance…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
What a ‘chick’?
And people can try to spin this however they want, but ‘at the end of the day’, I don’t see how you can’t see all this as looking pretty bad for Sabes. Maybe he’s getting screwed over by perception of the park, I don’t know, but with how things appear to be turning out, the offseason looks very poor from where I’m standing. There’s no reason why Huff needed to be signed so quickly (same with Sanchez- who, judging by the attention other second basemen have received, is clearly being paid above market value.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:21 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I'm sure that's a typo.
I’m sure he meant to say “What a chuck”.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 14, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
I meant “chick” as in another lefty “power” hitter who wants lots of money and years knowing that AT&T will affect his stats.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t know that slang
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:35 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
pretty sure they are referring to Adam Laroche as a girl
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
Yeah, I know
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I tried to pull you out, but you’re determined to keep digging.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 14, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
I think "power hitter" jponry should "affect his stats" if you know what i mean
by clobbering his junk with the mighty ban hammer. we don’t need sexist tools around here.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
That seems extreme
But he should learn that stuff’s not gonna fly here.
it is extreme
and i’ve probably been sexist in my own way, as have many of us, but that was some pretty blatant ass-hattery. of course, from his follow-up comments, i do credit the poster as being entertaining at least.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Don't need sexist tools?
Are you saying we’re capable of being sexist bare-handed?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 14, 2010 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
Here's my bare hand grasping my tool.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
Haha, I wasn’t trying to be sexist. I initially wanted to call him a b!tch, but in an effort to offend less folks I went with chick. Another bite in the ass from political correctness. My apologies to chicks everywhere. But LaRouche probably would have signed with the Colorado Silver Bullets for less than he would require of the Giants.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
I initially wanted to call him a b!tch
Well in that case…
/facepalm
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Fine, if I recant my “chick” statement and call him a bitch will you people be able to get on with your lives already?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Another bite in the ass from political correctness.
That is such a ridiculous copout!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Get over yourself. I was clearly joking.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
I'm so not over myself
give me a little bit of time, man!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Go easy on hairball
He’s on the rebound from himself.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Apparently I’m the only one that doesn’t see a problem with sexism? ;)
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
Just try not to see sexism where it ain't.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
And now, having actually seen the reference in question, I will retract the previous comment.
VG, you had to see this coming. You will next time!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
I honestly didn’t think people would have coronaries. If the worst people did was use the term chick the world would be a Shangri-La.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
Honestly people get into more trouble here trying to passive-aggressively apologize than the original offense which really wasn’t so awful. Just apologize for real and move on. This stuff is stored forever and it is not worth it. You are back to square -10 with a lot of people here and they will not forget it, for better or worse.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 14, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
/shreds Gigantes’ invitation to birthday sleepover
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
Fine, I take it back! I meant LaRouche is acting like a cute, adorable little baby chicken!
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
Are we talking about Adam LaRoche
or Lyndon LaRouche?
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
NO BICKERING!
We iz bein JUDGD.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think I had a coronary. I just thought it was an odd thing to say and I said so.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
You’re not one of the ones having one. And I’m sorry I said it. Apparently it doesn’t offend you as much as everyone else.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
I've given you the hard time that I felt you merited
Thank you for being a relatively good sport.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Dude – would you say that in a business meeting with women present? Well, guess what? There are women present… and people want them to stick around. Things that might tend to discourage them from participating are frowned on. Live with it.
Aside from that, ‘tee hee, he’s a girl’ doesn’t demonstrate any thought or insight – it is just not smart analysis, and stupidity is not well tolerated here… at least mine hasn’t been.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
I wonder...
…if at some point in the day people will stop sticking him.
I think he’s dead.
- or -
FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve had a girl or two tell me, “Stop being such a girl.” I think we all found it more funny than sexist.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
This
Freaking this. Err on the side of humor. If the joke bombs, try again and make it funnier the next time.
Anyone offended at all by the chick comment ought to be sentenced to a Dean Martin Comedy Roast marathon.
Proud father of Barry Bonds.
I’ll be offended by whatever the hell I want to be offended by, thanks.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I’m offended by that.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I'm replying to Nat.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 16, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
real men err on the dangerous sexy side
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:18 AM PST up reply actions
Sabean should be able to provide evidence that shows the park isn’t murder to hitters.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
This. Agents aren’t idiots. The players will listen to them. Put me into a room with an agent and I have no doubt whatsoever I could dispell the notion that AT&T murders hitters (though in some cases, it IS true…see: Huff, Aubrey). But yeah, the agents will get that it’s a pretty neutral park overall. If I’m an agent I pretend to not get it and don’t buy it to try to get the GM to overpay, of course, but privately I let my player know the deal so his preferences aren’t built on false beliefs. Also, if an agent believes HR’s lead to higher contracts still (at a higher rate than they should based on overall production), I guess there’s a little reason to stay away from AT&T for a future contract, but that shouldn’t be a big deal.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
Myths can be hard to dispel
Even if there is ample evidence against them. Baseball players didn’t get where they are because they are smart and not-stubborn.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 14, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
It’s true, but I really think convincing the agent is an effective way of breaking the myth – becasue the agent will probably understand what you’re saying, and because they have the players ear.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
I necessarily disagree, but you are putting a lot of faith in agents now…
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 14, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
I do have a lot of faith in agents, I think a lot of them are pretty good at what they do. I don’t have much faith in their honesty or integrity, mind you, but I do think their influence and understanding of an argument, be it statistical or not, are two qualities they possess since those two qualities are pretty important in their line of work…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
Good point. I guess my viewpoint of them being slimy jerks clouded my mind to the possibility that they could be pretty smart and informed.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 14, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
I guarantee you Scott Boras knows more about park effects and all that jazz than Brian Sabean will ever bother to learn.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
FTFY
I guarantee you Scott Boras knows more about park effects and all that jazz than Brian Sabean will ever bother to learn.
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
We can all just thank heavens that Boras didn’t represent LaRouche and get him a Holliday-esque contract.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
I’m sure Boras gets a big grin when his caller id reads ‘Brian Sabean’
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
His eyes light up with dollar $ign$
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
His eyes have dollar signs permanently afixed. His ringtone is the chaching of a cash register, and thats for any GM calling.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
By showing the statistical analysis that he uses in operating the Giants every day?
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
How can Sabean employ park factors when he so obviously doesn’t believe in them himself?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I said SHOULD be able, not IS able.
As in, a smart GM would get the feeling that hitters don’t want to come to SF because it’s not a hitter’s paradise, and would come up with evidence to support ATT Park not being one of the worst hitters parks in baseball. But a Sabean GM wouldn’t know what park factors are, and would instead simply throw in the towel and say, “Yeah, it’s tough on hitters alright.”
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
He meant to say "chicken"
…butthead.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
See the guy with the 3-D specs behind Biff?
That’s always who I think of when I see guys wearing those thick white sunglasses.
Jesus, fashion sense is hilarious sometimes…
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t get the white sunglasses thing either. Sunglasses were perfected with aviators anyway.
The Giants Way™"If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce," Neukom said. "The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played."
Do you mean these?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
/shakes fist while laughing
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
You Vic I’m proud of you… … but ‘WIN NOW’ was one of the best photoshops ever!
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
Absolutely.
And when I contract Vic Jr. to come and show me how Paint.net can enhance my entertainment value here I hold WIN NOW! as the Holy Grail of achievement.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, I have to do something to make up for having nothing to say about baseball, ever.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Jan 14, 2010 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
interesting. tell me more about your lack of baseball commentary.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:21 AM PST up reply actions
You're not speaking satyri's language here
You need to photoshop Brian Sabean, Veruca Salt, Maria Shriver, and whatever the McCoven have been talking about in the last day into a picture that says “TELL ME MORE NOW!”
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
If he’s getting screwed by perception of the park, part of that is his own fault. He himself likes to go around saying hitters don’t want to come here. He could be out in the media complaining about the misperception that Mays Field is a pitchers’ park, pointing to statistics that show that it’s neutral at worst. He doesn’t.
He does! Just think how much Zito would be making if Sabean hadn’t enticed him with the favorable dimensions of Mays Field?
by taliesin on Jan 14, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Great point. He does build himself an excuse, but at the same time, doing so actually creates some of the perception he’s using as an excuse.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
How is this on Sabean? LaRoche turned down the offer of 2/17.5. He probably thought he would get an offer for 3 years. I am very happy, for one, that they did not throw 3 years at him. The market opened when Sabes signed Huff not before. But I am not convinced that If he had waited to sign Huff, things would have happened any differently. When it was clear to LaRoche that he was not going to get 3 years, he probably thought that he was better suited to play one year in the BOB versus one or two in ATT. I think it is hard to argue with that logic and clearly a few $MM either way was not going to make a difference. Yes it sucks that LaDouche signed for only a little more than what we paid for Huff, but that is how this kind of thing happens and this one does not appear to be on Sabes.
I disagree, because at some point LaRoche was going to realize he wasn’t getting what he wanted, and change his demands. Sabean made his move before LaRoche changed his demands, and the end result is Sabean overpaying relative to the market – no surprise, it’s just like what happened with Renteria last year. It’s one thing to say this is a one time occurence, but it’s not. Renteria, Zito, Huff, Rowand, even Uribe this year. When it happens all the time, you have to start to think maybe it really IS Sabean….
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t think he overpaid for Huff. I think he would have overpaid for LaRoche if he had taken the 2/17.5 deal. LaRoche’s demands only changed because the market changed when Huff was signed. Plus I am not convinved he would have come here for anything less than 3 years.
Shoot, wasn’t Baltimore about to offer him money and years? How hard on a lefty’s stats is Oriole Park?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
Well, being “over” or “under” paid is all relative. I think Huff was a slight overpay based on his ability and what teams historically pay on the free agent market, but not too much. However, based on what LaRoche got, I do think he’s being overpaid. For $1-2M more we could have had a much better player.
Plus I am not convinved he would have come here for anything less than 3 years.
I think that’s a pretty huge copout. Why wouldn’t LaRoche come here for less than 3 years, if his alternative is 1 yr/$4-5M? You can’t just assume players won’t come here – that’s a pretty lame excuse to justify poor management decisions.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I think Huff was a slight overpay based on his ability and what teams historically pay on the free agent market, but not too much
(Plus teams are paying less this year than in years past, so that makes it a little worse, too)
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
I must be missing something but we offered him more money and he turned it down. Why do you think he would have taken less money to play in ATT? I think he originally wanted 3 years (http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors#4299) and when that clearly was not happening, he looked for the best one year he could get and in a place where he thought he could put up good numbers.
Yeah, he turned it down looking for a better contract. He then found out that better contract wasn’t out there for him. He has since found out, once we pulled our offer, he was out of leverage and out of good offers, and had to settle for crap.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
He overpaid for Huff, because Huff is not worth anything, in my view. He’s worse than Travis Ishikawa.
Huff’s one bad year was Ishi’s best??? It did happen to be last year, but for this $$ it is not unreasonable to see if he bounces back. Travis is probably not the long term option so he is not really blocking anyone
1 bad year?
Huff has had 1 Good year in the last 5. It is very debatible if he is worth the $3M better than all Ex Grizzlies. Not just Ishikawa but Lewis, Nate & Bowker take it in shorts. i would say that odds are good at least 1 of those 4 would post better 2010 numbers then Huff will.
/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.
by daveinexile on Jan 14, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
There’s a reason Ishikawa is projected to be slightly better than Huff next year. It’s not because Ishikawa’s good (he’s not, but he’s better than replacement), it’s because Huff is also not very good.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Where is Ishikawa projected to be better than Huff? Bill James and CHONE both have Huff being better.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
CHONE has Ishikawa at .9 WAR, Huff at .6 WAR. Also, Huff is projected to get more PT, so the difference is even bigger than that. I think CHONE’s projection is a little optimistic on Ishikawa’s hitting, personally, but even adjusting it down, he’s likely just as good. Defense counts, too.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
I forgot the intelligent world has whittled all baseball stats down to one singly important one. Are they showing sabermetrics on baseball cards yet?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, we have. And teams that are up to speed with that win a lot of baseball games
Teams that still evaluate by avg and RBI’s, not so much.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
Ya, Toronto really kicked a lot of ass the last few years
by crazedcrustacean on Jan 14, 2010 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
There’s a reason a guy like Keith Law (known as one of those “stat guys”) left Toronto. It was definitely not a very forward thinking, stats savvy place.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
Even if you don’t want to use WAR – Ishikawa is probably a worse hitter than Huff (I think we would all agree on that) but he’s also probably much, much better defensively (I think we would also all agree on that). I imagine I would give a baserunning edge to the younger Ishikawa. I don’t necessarily see how it can come as a great shock that there wouldnt’ be much difference between them and, Ishikawa being younger, you could even expect him to outperform Huff.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I don’t dislike the idea of Ishikawa starting, as long as its only at AT&T.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
His home/road splits from 2009 aren’t likely to mean very much in terms of his future performance.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
We can all hope so…but the difference was so huge, how do you know he won’t forever suck away from AT&T?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Because there’s no logical reason to explain why he would hit so well at AT&T and so poorly on the road and the sample sizes were quite small?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Guess we’ll never really know the answer, barring a Huff injury.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Guess we’ll never really know the answer
Glad you understand. We don’t know, and that’s ok. We play the percentages by assuming the most likely case – and the most likely case is that he plays basically the asme on the road and at home (because that’s what almost every player does).
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
Ishikawa is probably a worse hitter than Huff (I think we would all agree on that)
I’m not even so sure of this. Huff was a really, really bad hitter last year. There’s a reason CHONE has them projected as equal hitters. Now, as I’ve stated, I do think CHONE is overly optimistic on Ishikawa, so I guess I do think Huff is the better hitter, but I don’t think the difference is very big at all. It’s pretty negligible, in my opinion.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
I’m giving Huff a slight benefit of the doubt due to his low BABIP – but even with correction, he would still be bad for a 1B.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Isn’t this debate pointless? We can do all the scientific calculations we want on who is the better player, sabermetrics simply doesn’t take human nature into account. What happens when Bochy yells at Ishikawa and hurts his feelings, sending him reeling on a 25 game hitless streak?
I think I’d rather see Guzman for a whole season over Huff and Ishikawa anyways.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
sabermetrics simply doesn’t take human nature into account.
What you don’t understand is that doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the odds we’re trying to play by using statistics. Say you have some minor leaguer you promote to the bigs. 25% of the time you know a minor leaguer of his ability ends up a good player, 75% of the time they suck (because you have historical probabilities that tell you this). It could be for this particular player, there’s just something about him that pretty much guarantees he’s going to be good – like a 90% chance or something, he just has to stay injured. The amazing thing is that doesn’t change the 25% odds that you’re playing! Overall, the category of players he falls into still has a 25% success rate, even if his individual success rate is different.
And that’s the whole point, if you play the odds, over time you’re going to be more successful. That’s what projections are for – and they DO come up with more accurate odds than the “experts”, by a decent margin. So you use this information, and your performance is better than if you don’t. It isn’t pointless.
I mean, I guess US talking about it is “pointless” in that we don’t make these decisions. We enjoy baseball, and we enjoy discussing things like this.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah that’s initially what I meant to say – I couldn’t figure out why I used the word injured, so I just stuck with it in the correction to try to save face. :)
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
Sure it matters. We just don’t know when it matters, or how much, or in which direction, or how to measure it.
That’s what projections are for – and they DO come up with more accurate odds than the "experts", by a decent margin.
I presume you’re referring to a study of some kind … link?
http://vegaswatch.net/2009/11/evaluating-april-mlb-predictions-2005.html
Well, as you point out – it does matter in that the real percentage in my hypothetical example is 90%, and of course we’re best off by using the very best information we have, and in that regard, scouting may supplement the projections well at times (or even always) to improve them. Whoever has the most accurate set of projections is best playing the odds, but again, all you can do is play the odds to the best of what your knowledge of the odds are, so that’s the point I was trying to make, and the proejctions do a pretty good job when it comes to establishing the odds.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
That seems like a silly argument
a) Why are you assuming Travis isn’t a man and can’t handle being reprimanded?
b) What makes you think Bochy has ever yelled at a player?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Is that a non-sequitur or false dichotomy?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
He was a really bad hitter last year, but was it a permanent bad, or a fluke bad? I’m surprised that both posters and projection systems seem so eager to proclaim it to be the former. His peripherals have eroded a bit over the years, but not dramatically, and he will get a substantial boost from moving to the easier league.
I’ll be really, really shocked if Ishikawa is as good a hitter next season, even though I’ve been a big Ishikawa defender lately.
I’m not. 33 year olds who are that bad are often not very good at any point in the rest of their career. Of course I expect him to be much better than last year, but last year he hit .241/.310/.384. That’s pretty horrendous. I buy into the projections because they’re telling us what, historically, players have done when they’ve had such a fall at such an age in the past. I’d much rather what actual historical data is telling me instead of trusting the hopefuls that just want the move to work out in our favor.
I will acknowledge the league boost to a degree, but at the same time – the NL West does have pretty solid pitching itself. I’m not sure the league boost is that great. Also, I don’t care to memorize the details of the projections, so I’m not sure which ones take it into account and which don’t….
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not. Guys who fall off a cliff on the wrong side of 30 rarely climb back up.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Rarely Is Simply Not True
Here are some Giants examples on the opposite side of this coin.
Marquis Grisson at ages 33 and 34 had wRC+s of 62 and 73 and then rebounded at ages 35, 36, and 37 to produce wRC+s of 125, 111, and 101.
Benito Santiago at ages 34, 35, and 36 had wRC+s of 75, 71, and 78 and then rebounded at ages 37 and 38 to produce wRC+s of 102 and 103.
Ray Durham at age 35 had a wRC+ of 68 and rebounded at age 36 to produce a wRC+ of 121.
Randy Winn at age 32 had a wRC+ of 82 and rebounded at ages 33 and 34 to produce wRC+s of 112 and 115.
Maybe, just maybe, Brian Sabean and company are really good a picking out rebound canidates that you and the rest of the projection system mentality group just can’t see.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
Lol Santiago (Father Time)
from his Myspace page
Benito Santiago Catcher Official Page
Male
97 years old
Ponce
Puerto Rico
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 15, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
Kidding aside
Outside of Santiago (roids) I don’t think your player-types fit Huff well. 2 of your 3 guys were speedy athletic OF-types that tend to age well. Durham also pretty much fits that mold, too.
Huff looks like an Old Player Skills guy to me.
#1 FanShot Champion
You Two Really Believe Steroids Make This Much Difference?
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
the main medical use of steriods is to help recover from injuries, so yes.
Winn and Durham’s struggles were both injury related. Unless I missed something, Huff was healthy last year – just terrible.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
How Do You Know Huff's 2009 Wasn't Nagging Injury Related?
Durham’s2007 was never reported as related to nagging injuries. Yes, Winn’s 2006 was reported to be related to nagging injuries even though he missed very little playing time just like Huff in 2009.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
I do think steroids have a very positive effect on old guys who’s bodies are slowing/wearing down, yes…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 7:25 PM PST up reply actions
Of course I don’t know how much was or wasn’t steroids vs. whatever other factors, but I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s all attributable to steroids. Some is random luck, some is probably just regression to the mean after a bad year, some might be the player being motivated to work hard after a bad year….at least I wouldn’t suggest it’s all steroids, just that they might be a significant factor.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
I'd point out that Santiago wasn't exactly Johnny Bench in SF.
He went from replacement level to solid but unspectacular. .
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
To be fair, I think we’d all be happy with “solid but unspectacular” out of Huff…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
LOL last statement....
Sabean and company picking rebound candidates?
1. Grissom had his bounce-back year with the Dodgers BEFORE he came here.
2. Santiago didn’t bounce back until a year after Sabean signed him.
3. Durham collapsed the year after his 2nd contract (2007) then rebounded when he was still under contract.
4. Randy Winn also had a bad season in the first after his contract extension.
So I guess Sabean is really good at picking guys who will have an awful year, then rebound?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Your Are Missing The Point
These 30+ Year Old Players Did Bounce Back thus rarely was an overstatement at best.
As for Sabean and company they did properly scout these players to determine that a bounce back was a good bet if they did have a bad season and that it was a good bet that such a bounce back would continue for more then just a year. Ray Durham too would of likely had a decent 2009 if he had been signed.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 8:16 PM PST up reply actions
No no no no no no no no no
Your post was totally bueno until you said this:
Maybe, just maybe, Brian Sabean and company are really good a picking out rebound canidates that you and the rest of the projection system mentality group just can’t see.
So either you were being ambiguous as usual or you were talking out of your rear end as usual.
BTW, projections typically predict a “bounce-back” after a terrible season for most players who aren’t old-old.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Context Is Everything!
I was responding to oldjacket’s statement:
Guys who fall off a cliff on the wrong side of 30 rarely climb back up.
It seems you actually agree with my response that
Rarely Is Simply not True
You need to look the following in this context too:
Maybe, just maybe, Brian Sabean and company are really good a picking out rebound canidates that you and the rest of the projection system mentality group just can’t see.
My point is that Brian Sabean and company seem to be good at picking players that are both likely to rebound (and not just for one year) if they have had such a season or have such a season as a Giant.
As for your argument that projection systems in general project bounce back too I would argue that it is a matter of degree. Projection systems do not seem to see the degree of bounce back that actually occurs with the players Brian Sabean and company sign and thus Brian Sabean and company may indeed be better at picking these rebound candidates.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
I’ll concede the phrasing but not the point. Huff’s projections are about what they should given the very real chance that he goes the way of Hillenbrand.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I Disagree
Too much focus on this risk in the projections without enough of the balance of the upside of another 4+ WAR season.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 11:07 PM PST up reply actions
Considering that he’s only done that once in the last 5 season, and it wasn’t last year, I think they weigh the chances of s 4+ WAR season pretty accurately.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I Disagree
ZIPS for example only gives him a 1% chance of such a season. They give Edgar Renteria (10%) a better chance which is just flat out silly to me..
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 1:53 AM PST up reply actions
that’s not silly at all. Renteria has been more valuable than Huff every year but Huff’s decidely fluky 2008.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Edgar Has Had 4 Such Seasons In the Last 8 Years
While Aubrey has only had two but Huff’s most resent was in 2008 as opposed to 2007 for Renteria. It can be argued that higher percentage trumps most resent but it can not be logically argued that the difference is likelihood is an order of magnitude.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
If you’re weighting recent play more heavily, Renteria was more valuable than Huff LAST YEAR. Huff’s not going to be considered more likely to get to four wins if he isn’t even a better bet to get to zero.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Wait...
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
Is it a more horrible off season than last year? Would you not agree that if DeRosa and Huff only manage to match last year’s stats they would be an automatic upgrade over those they replaced?
I don’t disagree with the Huff signing. I think LaRouche would have been another Rowand we’d be stuck with for years.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
For years? It’s pretty clear that, at most, he would have been here for two years
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:36 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Also, did you actually see huffs stats last year???? Ishikawa outhit him!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Jan 14, 2010 10:37 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
BUT RIB EYES!!!!
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
NO
Huff was significantly worse than Ishikawa last year, and he plays much worse defense. Derosa is an upgrade over Velez, but at the very best a slight upgrade over Lewis.
I will say DeRosa is an upgrade over Schierholtz (which in a perfect world, would be who he was replacing in the lineup – either Schierholtz or Bowker), but again, it’s not that big. He’s only a big upgrade over Velez, but if Velez was really going to start, that’s probably even dumber than signing DeRosa to replace Lewis.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
’s cousin
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
Get out, man!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
/thinks about chaps
Oh, wait – you’re already out.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
/wonders why vic is thinking about chaps
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
I say, chaps!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jan 14, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
I wear, ch...
…oops
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
Oh my was that good. Sorry to see Cain gone though.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jan 14, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
The more I think about it
The less I think we can blame Sabean for this one.
It’s quite likely that the move that forced LaRoche to take this deal was the Giants signing Huff.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 11:21 AM PST reply actions
you just contradicted yourself
If signing Huff forced LaRoche’s hand, Sabes could have easily waited for someone else to sign Huff. Of course, this all does go back to the lack of Garko leverage. Sabes could have gotten rid of Garko a number of ways, if the Bochy hatred was making it necessary. The way he got rid of him, and the timing, really hamstrung the team. While I’m not as upset as the OMG WTF crowd, I do think that Sabes clearly exhibited a lack of patience here, and did not read the situation correctly.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
“I do think that Sabes clearly exhibited a lack of patience here, and did not read the situation correctly.”
Do you think its possible that we, the fans, those unprivvy to negotiation details, don’t know all aspects of the situation as we sit here on our high horse baseball forum and outwit Sabean’s every move?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
No, I did not.
The market is dynamic – changing even daily. Every signing and offer affects the market dramatically.
When you have X teams looking for a 1st baseman and one of those teams signs one, the market changes to X-1.
When the demand drops, then so does the price. While Sabean could have threatened to go out and sign Huff, the only way to actually change the market would be to do it.
It is likely that Sabean extended a 1 year offer to LaRoche implicitly or explicitly and it was refused – he then extended a 1 year offer to Huff, and it was accepted.
LaRoche, now faced with the X-1 situation and dwindling demand, was forced to accept a 1 year offer (probably already on the table) that he had previously refused – as existing offers (or perception of offers to be made) disappeared with the signing of Huff.
It’s very simple really. In the end the only person to have gotten screwed is LaRoche. He gave up 17.5m in hand for 4-5m in the bush. Oops.
Once Huff was signed, a major player in the 1b market (SF) was out – poof! No more market!.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It is likely that Sabean extended a 1 year offer to LaRoche implicitly or explicitly and it was refused
I don’t see that being very likely. Also, Sabean could have waited for Huff to sign with someone else, and then swooped in on LaRoche. Anyways, I do think your points are right, I just don’t necessarily agree that Sabean was doing what he should have been, given the market.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Well, Actually
It’s entirely possible that had Sabean waited for Huff to sign w/ someone else the price for LaRoche would have gone up. The Giants had a “pressing” 1b need that is well documented in the media.
For Arizona, it’s just a sort of nice upgrade that lets them move some players around.
Also, there is no garauntee that Huff would have signed with anyone for some time – and in the event that LaRoche did accept someone elses offer (who knows what was out there) then the price for Huff would go up.
It’s all very dynamic, and without being aware of everything that happened and when it happened it is fairly presumptuous to be making should statements.
This situation is, to me, nothing more than an exercise in how dramatically the FA market can change in a short period of time.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 14, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
This situation is, to me, nothing more than an exercise in how dramatically the FA market can change in a short period of time.
And this is the part where I did agree with you, of course. I just don’t think prices were likely to go substantially against us. We’ve seen that Huff signing LaRoche didn’t drive his price up. The Giants didn’t have to sign a 1B – the one we did sign is really about as good as what we already had, after all. And the longer Huff didn’t sign, the more we found out about the market, and more importantly, the more LaRoche would realize nobody is giving him what he wants. It is dynamic, and of course you don’t have the same information in the present as you do in hindsight…but it just looks to me like there’s no way Sabean would have been left with a worse option than what we got, and there was at least the chance of things working out better.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
It’s quite likely that the move that forced LaRoche to take this deal was the Giants signing Huff.
I do think this is a fair point. However, I also think that Sabean didn’t wait until LaRoche’s demands reset after figuring out he wasn’t going to get what he wanted. There wasn’t much reason to sign Huff as early as we did, we could have waited the market out a bit, it’s not like we risked losing leverage and being down to only LaRoche and having to pay him more than we want, clearly that situation didn’t happen once we signed Huff….so yeah, Sabean still made his move too early and overpaid because of it.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t see why he would pass up more money just because he made a bad previous decision. That would just be compounding his original mistake. If he honestly sat there and said to himself, “Hmmm….I passed up my best offer, thinking I’d get better. The offers have changed, and now I’m going to pass up my current best offer because….(I don’t know what to say, I don’t know why he would do this)”, then I can honestly say he’s an idiot.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
we can all speculate about this forever, but he did what he did. I for one think it was a stupid move, but he made it and as yet has not explained it.
You’re right, its all speculation. I do think he wanted to more money/years with the Giants because of AT&T’s reputation vs lefties, and Sabean probably jumped the gun on Huff. Frankly I would have preferred to see Ishikawa and Guzman fight it out. And honestly, we should all be sighing in relief that Huff didn’t get a Renteria contract.
Might be a bad move on all parts, but at least its funny as LaRouche will probably need my tax dollars to pay for his healthcare next year as he’s signing for pennies for playing chicken with Sabes.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
Pennies.
/thinks about AZ UI benefits, laughs
/thinks about AZ UI benefits, cries
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Frankly I would have preferred to see Ishikawa and Guzman fight it out. And honestly, we should all be sighing in relief that Huff didn’t get a Renteria contract.
I belong in this line.
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
Lets look on the bright side
LaRoach will get off to his customary 0 for April start, the Dwusses will end up sucking and be buried in the standings by the end of May and LaRoach will end up traded to the Mariners at the all-star break for a bag of balls and some week old salmon.
by crazedcrustacean on Jan 14, 2010 11:30 AM PST reply actions
OT
Got my Nexus One in the mail yesterday. Hooray for new gadgets/toys!
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
I just look for the w-2s
Unemployment bennies, pension loans…all taxed.
Block is gonna earn it this year…
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
What would the harm in waiting the market out have been? Does anyone think Huff was going to get snatched up with the other options that were still on the market? Even if he did get signed before we could get to him, we would have just been forced to sign a better player than Huff anyway. I say FAIL.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jan 14, 2010 12:24 PM PST reply actions
Yeah, really. OH GOD WE MIGHT HAVE MISSED OUT ON A REPLACEMENT LEVEL FIRST BASEMAN OH GOD
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
You mean we might have missed out on an Ishikawa level first baseman…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
You mean we might will have missed out on an Ishikawa level first baseman…
Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
You mean we might will have missed out on an Ishikawa Garko level first baseman…
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Mychael Urban: Wow. Probably Dye at this point. Good outfielder, could adapt to RF at AT&T, good RBI guy.
by natteringnabob on Jan 14, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
OMG SOME DUMB JOCK DOESN'T WANNA LIVE IN SF
His loss. Fuck him. I hope he goes 0-40 against the Giants in ’10.
/message board talk!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
ITZ NOT GUNNA MATTER WHEN WE GET FEELDER FOR CANE
Brian says a lot of things. Brian only does one thing, though. Get low OBP hacking suckholes who’s best years are in the past. - Missing Barry
WHUT IS TAKIN SO LONGE IS SABEN THAT DUMB HE IS
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Jan 14, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
I can’t help but wonder if players just realize that Sabean has this tendency to pay above market value for veteran-types and therefore don’t budge unless he hands out a Renteria type contract.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
But what about players like N. Johnson who sign elsewhere for less than Sabean offered?
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
I think he just wanted to play for the Yankees
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Unfortunately, I think thats where Sabean runs into these overpaying situations. Because if the Giants offer me $4 million/year for three years, and the Yanks or Red Sox offer the same, its obvious where i’m not headed.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
What was the Giants offer to Johnson, by the way? Now that I’ve found out that Johnson can opt out for his next season, that increaes the actual value of his contract. By the way, I don’t see the point in a mutual option. It doesn’t seem to me it gives anyone an advantage over just renegotiating with them as a FA…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Usually the team has to pay the player if it declines on its side, so it has some value to the player.
Yeah, I know they generally come with buyouts, but you can easily account for that. So you add the following to the one year contract:
Buyout – (Buyout * probability of both teams picking up the option).
Actually, I think I just figured it out. I’m guessing the player has to pay the club a buyout if they decline the option, so that way, both player and club have a little extra incentive for accepting the option….so I guess it gives them both a better chance to stay together. That would make sense, if that’s not the case, I can’t think of any other possible reason for a mutual option.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
From Fangraphs...
Reports earlier in the winter had Adam LaRoche seeking a 3 year, $30 million contract. That was laughable, as everyone knew he wasn’t going to get that, not in this market. Last week, a report came out that he had turned down 2 years and $17 million from the San Francisco Giants. Now, LaRoche has apparently accepted reality, as Sports Illustrated reports that he’s signed a one-year deal with the Arizona Diamondbacks for something between $4 and $5 million.
Unfortunately for LaRoche, he had to learn the lesson of this market the hard way. A few teams were willing to shell out real money for a few high-end players, but the bottom has completely fallen out of the low-end market. Average-ish players simply can’t get big money deals right now. And that’s exactly what LaRoche is – an average player headed into his decline phase.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
This sounds pretty accurate
I thinik LaRoche overplayed his hand. They might have turned down Sabeans offer with such vigor that Sabean felt he had no other option but the Huff deal.
I don’t think it was that terrible a tragedy.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
I don’t think it was that terrible a tragedy.
Nor do I, LaRoche at the price we offered him wasn’t too appealing. However, if we could have gotten him for a similar contract as the DBacks did….well, then we lost by getting Huff instead.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
yup
but once sabean was rejected, he immediately went to huff, not waiting it out. maybe, just maybe, laroche didn’t want to play in SF
Yeah, we can’t rule out LaRoche just not being that into SF because we don’t know…but at the same time, we also don’t know that he didn’t want to come here….so yeah.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
Both Nick Johnson And Adam LaRoche Took Less Money To Play Elsewhere
Sabean haters need to wake up and smell the roses. It is very obvious that both of these players just did not want to be Giants. Waiting out Adam LaRoche would not have mattered any more then waiting out Nick Johnson mattered. It takes two to dance and if you ask and she says no you have to move on.
“Would you like to dance?”
“No.”
/joins monastary
A girl I had a crush on didn’t want to date me at first. We’re now married and have two kids. It’s funny how when you show someone that their preconceived notions are wrong, things can go your way.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I guess you’re right. If Sabean targets a player and that player says, “I don’t want to play in San Francisco,” Sabean should just give up. Why bother offering any evidence that might change a player’s mind, whatever their hangup is? Which is exactly what he does already, it would seem. And since 2003, he’s done a bang-up job constructing this team’s roster, hasn’t he?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
You Just Do Not Know This. It Is Just What Your Bias Makes You Believe.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
Johnson took less money but a much better overall situation, but as for LaRoche it seems to me that you were right that LaRoche must have declined his offer before DeRosa accepted his. Because I just can’t believe that anybody would make the wiling choice to give away one year and 13 million to choose Arizona over SF. That would be a little on the crazy side.
It makes much more sense to think he vastly overpriced himself, said no to far and away the best offer he was going to get and then got stuck without a chair when DeRosa, Uribe, and then finally Huff all said yes.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
The Giants Made The Highest Bid Either Nick Johnson Or Adam LarRoche Received
Both players ended up elsewhere for less. Johnson choose less when both offers were in front of him and in my judement LaRoche showed he really wasn’t interested when the Giants offer was in front of him. As I see it the Giants then decided to spend the Money they would of spend on Johnson or LaRoche on Uribe and Huff instead. I just can’t see the logic in blaming the Giants for not waiting out LaRoche. Heck as far as the Giants knew it was still possible that the Mets might decide to pursue LaRoche. Waiting for all of LaRoche’s possible other options to disappear seems to me to be a very bad idea.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
Waiting for all of LaRoche’s possible other options to disappear seems to me to be a very bad idea.
Well, except for the fact that their response to this was to sign Aubrey Huff, who, amazingly, is worse than the incumbent crappy first baseman. It has a chance to work out, sure, but the probability is that the Giants would have been better off lighting $3M on fire and playing Trashy.
He Is Not Worse Then Inhouse Options he Is An Upgrade.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
He's not enough of an upgrade to be worth the opertunity cost of the players left on the market.
And it’s reasonable to question whether he’d have even received a guaranteed contract if the Giants hadn’t signed him.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
That Is Just Your Opinion (Not Fact)
I actually agree that I wanted and expected better even this late into the off season. But, i do understand the Giants logic in deciding that they were better of spending $6M on Huff and Uribe then waiting. Again I don’t agree but I do understand.
With regards to what contract Huff would have gotten elsewhere if the Giants didn’t sign him I think it would have been very similar. No way do I see him having to settle for a minor league deal.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions
That Is Because You Still Believe The Projection Systems - I Don't.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
How well do you think Huff is going to hit?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Right Around His Career Averages
I expect the same for the other Giants veterans too including Renteria.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 10:58 PM PST up reply actions
Do you expect Garko to around career averages too?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
33 years olds don't tend to hit to their career averages.
Neither do 34 (Renteria) 35 (DeRosa) year olds.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I Disagree
They don’t tend to match their peaks but they do tend to be right around their career averages if they are still in MLB and still starting.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 1:59 AM PST up reply actions
Or Ishikawa I guess...?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
I'll just leave this comment, then go to bed
Huff’s career averages: .349 wOBA, ~11 offensive runs above average per 600 PAs; -4 UZR/150; net of 7 runs above average using offense+defense
Garko’s career averages: .353 wOBA, ~13.4 RAA/600 PAs; -4.6 UZR/150 (we’ll call it -5); net of about 9 runs above average using O+D
Ishikawa’s career averages: .325 wOBA, ~ -3.7 RAA/600 PAs; 10.5 UZR/150 (though in a fairly small sample size… +8/150 would probably be a better average to use going forward); net of about 4.3-7.8 runs above average using OD
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Defense Is Where I Think This Falls Apart
Yes Huff has been -4 UZR/150 in 2622 innings at 1B but he has also been -4.4 UZR/150 in 2901 innings at 3B. If you translate these 3B innings to 1B they would project him to be +10.6 UZR/150 which would then average with his actual 1B innings to show him to be worth about +3.5 UZR/150 at 1B.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 2:09 AM PST up reply actions
Most of his 3B innings came years ago, and, as a 33 year old, he’s well into the normal age of defensive decline.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
In 2008 His Last Season At 3B He Was +7.6 In 275 Innings
I just do not see any evidence of IF defensive decline.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't Mean It Can Just Be Tossed
I am not using it to claim he was actually a +7.6 defender at 3B in 08. I am using it to show that their is evidence that his defense at 3B has not yet measurably declined .
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
With Ishikawa I Just Don't Buy His SSS UZR/150 Of +10.5.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 2:11 AM PST up reply actions
And that's precisely why I wrote this:
+8 UZR/150 would probably be a better average to use going forward
Although I’d still regress that down further to be a little more conservative
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
I Don't Buy +8 Either
Or for the reasons I outlined -4 for Huff.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
A girl I wanted to date didn’t want to marry me at first. I begged her and begged her, she toyed with my emotions like I was close to a yes, then she signed with the Yankees for less. Biyatch!
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t blame her. The yankees are loaded, get a lot more attention, have a home she can take advantage of, and can get her a real ring.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:38 AM PST up reply actions
a good lesson
Lets make out
no
Your preconcieved notions are wrong. Lets make out.
ok!
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:35 AM PST up reply actions
Did You Ever Think That If LaRoche Was Actually Interested He Would Of Countered Rather Then Declined?
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
I wonder if Sabes countered with, “Have you met my friend Scott? Fk off!”
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
Not The Way I See It.
His agent set his asking price at 3 years and $30M, the Giants offered 2 years and $17.5M and he cdeclined the Giants offer. A counter would of been something lower then the asking price and we have zero evidence that such an offer was make by his agent.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
Not necessarily
A counter could also be “we think we can get what we’re asking, pay us that.” Negotiating down is for people who think their initial asking price is over market.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Maybe, But An Outright Decline Communicates Little Interest
The Giants did make it clear that they wanted players that wanted to be Giants. Why should the Giants want players that were willing to settle on being Giants if and only if that ended up being their only good choice contract wise?
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 8:23 PM PST up reply actions
Because I don’t see any connection at all between player performance and how much they want to be in a given city. If you’re limiting yourself to guys who want to play for our team for non-mercenary reasons, not only are you severly limiting your options, you’re basicaly attracting players who (due to advanced age or lack of talent, or injuriesm or generally poor performance) aren’t good enough to start by the other 29 teams.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
You Are Reading Into What I Am Saying Things That Are Not There
I have no problem (and I don’t think the Giants do either) with competing for the talent targeted with other teams that are also interested. I do have a problem (and I think the Giants do too) with waiting to be the last option left for a player that is signaling that being a Giant just does not interest him much.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
I have no problem (and I don’t think the Giants do either) with competing for the talent targeted with other teams that are also interested.
I am confused by this sentence, as it seems poorly worded… Are you saying you don’t think the Giants have a problem competing for the services of the players they target, or that they don’t have a problem competing for the services of TOP players they’ve targeted?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I think it’s very reasonable to choose the reigning WS champions, and a franchise committed to win, over the Giants. I don’t think that says Johnson didn’t want to be here as much as he did want to be in NY. And it’s pretty easy to blame Sabean for us not being a winning franchise. ;)
As for LaRoche, the Giants offer wasn’t on the table for him when he took AZ’s. That’s not taking less money to play somewhere else. That’s not having any better choices than what he had in AZ.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 7:29 PM PST up reply actions
Albeit in Johnson's case, it was a little less money
For the chance to play for the Yankees and to DH
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Both Nick Johnson And Adam LaRoche Took Less Money To Play Elsewhere
And you blame this all on the ballpark? A few years back it was blamed on players not liking Bonds. Seems just as likely to me that players don’t want to play for the Giants Organization (Sabean), as not them liking the ballpark.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 14, 2010 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
It Is Indeed A Possibility That Some Just Don't Have A Favorable Opinion Of The giants As An Organization.
i maintain that some just don’t want to live in SF be it taxes, cost of living, social environment, or any combination of these.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
There are tons of reasons different individuals like different places more or less than others. Some people just enjoy the atmosphere of certain cities and dislike others. It happens…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
Nick Johnson didn’t quite take less money. With the mutual option, if he goes out an rakes this year, he can make 14.5 million over two years. Nobody knows if the Giants offered that much, and they definitely didn’t offer the chance to win a ring. I think its more likely that Sabean offered a larger one year deal, and Johnson figured he may as well play for a contender with a short porch in right (see J. Damon) than come to SF where his numbers will fall, he will play poor defense, not win a championship, and be screwed on his next contract year. Don’t really blame the dude to be honest with you. With the salaries we are talking about, these guys have options…lots and lots of them
Poor Eric Byrnes
Adam LaDouche turns down the Giants and he may lose his job. Oh well, at least he still gets the $11,000,000
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/01/dbacks-sign-adam-laroche.html
Eric Byres Would have taken less to play in SF.
Therefore all hitters must hate Chase field.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 14, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
So true. Glad he got his money though (since it didn’t come out of my pocket).
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 14, 2010 9:45 PM PST up reply actions
This is His New Park
Pretty obvious what he’s trying to do.
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
Don’t forget the dry desert air when looking at it.
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
As we covered upthread, dry air actually hurts a little. Not as much as high temperature and moderately high altitude helps, though.
Mark Reynolds would like a word with you.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 14, 2010 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
Que?
I said the net effect of the AZ climate is positive for HRs. Did he hit most of his on the road?
it hurts, and has the opposite effect of high temperature? sounds like a negative net effect.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:42 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks for the clue-in. I was implicated in a shift-A and only just now read the sequence.
I’m pretty sure I have a response up there expressing my undying love for you for bringing up gas laws here.
US History, baseball, chem/physics. I love all that stuff. This is pure awesome
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
Sweet, now show us one of LaRoche @ AT&T. Too bad you can’t show balls that would have bounced off the wall into the RF’s glove for a single and the bewildered look on LaRoche’s face when he realizes what he has done to his career.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
On windy nights, the wind curling around the stands in right field knocks down a lot of classic, high-arc home run balls too.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 14, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
I think the Aaron Rowand Effect will prevent lots of players who depend on power stats to fill their wallets from signing with the Giants. Once the Giants are finished with Rowand he’ll he be picked up at bargain basement price for sure.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
Too bad you can’t show balls
Yeah, stupid Grant and his whole “this is a family site” thing.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
The McCoven Family
Cookyman is behind the seated Jporny and to the left right.
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 16, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
Actually, I think my sister and I are the only blood related posters!
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 17, 2010 1:43 AM PST up reply actions
If he's just trying to inflate his value with park effects
It seems odd that he’d agree to a team option.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I did not know about that (I shift-A’d all the prior comments).
Thanks for the info.
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
call me a skeptic
Something is wrong with one of the stories. You do not turn down 17.5 mil to play two years with the giants, and then sign with arizona for one year for less than 5 million. Either he needs to fire his agent, or something is not accurate in these two stories. Zona in the NL west for 4.5 mil. or the giants for 2 years at 17.5 mil. Did he not take math? Fishy story, we need bags, or shulman or someone who can get inside to find out the real story. And, Paul Harvey is dead.
Pretty simple – he turned down the Giants offer, then later found out he wasn’t getting any good offers, but the Giants was off the table at that point, so he took the best offer left.
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
giants put out such a story to drive the price up as they knew someone else was going to sign him.
If in this short period of time his agent lost him a ton of money, his agent wont be signing too many more clients.
LaRoche's Agent Is Not Scott Boras.
You do not find Adam’s name anywhere on this List.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
angel villalona is a boras client? hes free!
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:44 AM PST up reply actions
Just because the rejection of the Giants’ offer was leaked recently doesn’t mean it happened recently.
It’s entirely plausible that the Giants’ offer was made, considered, rejected, and withdrawn all during the Winter Meetings when LaRoche still had $30 mil pie-in-the-sky delusions.
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
Aaron Rowand is a righty, and he struck out 125 times last year.
For two straight years he sucked after the allstar game, at home and on the road. So we are supposed to believe that LaRoche gives up 3 to 4 mil next year, for 81 games at home. What was he and his agent smoking? They must have had some good peyote out in the arizona arid and hot phoenix Sandpit.
I can understand the nick johnson decision but not this one.
Johnson took a little less to play with the Yanks, a perennial winner, and Johnson has played in N.Y. before and he can make up the difference in what he sees as a guaranteed post season. Also the advertising dollars in N.Y. give him added potential income, probably above what he can make.
Look, we all need to get this straight. Adam LaRoche did not turn down the Giants offer in favor of Arizona’s offer. LaRoche misplayed the market. One might say he Brian Sabean’ed the market…
He Could Have Countered The Giants Offer Rather Then Just Turning It Down.
If he was open to joining the Giants this is what he would have done.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 7:48 PM PST up reply actions
Rejection can be a prelude to a counter-offer. It doesn’t have to happen immediately. And if he was sure the bidding would remain high for his services, there is no reason to worry about the repercussions of not making a counter-offer. Therefore, it’s not a sure conclusion that he was not open to joining the Giants based on this information.
This info gives like 20% confirmation that he just didn’t want to play in SF; much more likely he just misread the market.
Let's Play a Lineup Game!
The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga
Sabean's Vets: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Renteria, Schierholtz, Posey
The Kids' CHONE WAR projection= 12.7
Sabean's Vets' CHONE War projection= 13.5
If The Giants Beleived he Was Intered They Would Of Waited Him Out
I would bet the Giants are way better at reading such intent then either you or me. They after all are involved in all communications.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 12:02 AM PST up reply actions
Damn - More Typos
Replace “Intered” with “Interested”
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 12:03 AM PST up reply actions
Have the Giants ever waited out a decent player?
They’ve used that strategy to fill out a roster, sure, but I can’t remember them ever trying to wait out a food player to fill a substantial hole on the roster. The back of the bullpen, a reserve infielder, a fifth starter candidate, sure, but no one of particular worth
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
In Prior Years They Have Pursued Early Those That They Wanted.
This made some sense until last year when the market clearly cooled. The Giants in my view did adjust to this cooling this year and waited much longer to act. I think they read what they were hearing from LaRoche’s agent as LaRoche just not being interested in being a Giant and thus they didn’t think there was any point in waiting for him. That siad I think they should have looked for and persued better options then Huff and Uribe. Perhaps they did and were convinced that these other better options we equally not interested in being Giants.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 12:49 AM PST up reply actions
I also question why the Giants seem to have such a problem with players not being interested, while no other well run team seems to have this problem? (Hint: it’s probably because that’s just a made up excuse)
by Missing Barry on Jan 15, 2010 6:52 AM PST up reply actions
A lot of your arguments seem built on some faith that the Giants not only have a lot more information than us (hopefully true), but are much, much more adept at using this information, a lot of which is extremely questionable on how they would even know (like “reading” a players interest in the Giants*) – something I highly question given their historical inability to outperform what freely available methods the sabermetric community gives us to evaluate players and contracts…
*An extremely effective negotiating technique is to seem less interested than you are, for instance….
by Missing Barry on Jan 15, 2010 6:51 AM PST up reply actions
Where Does Sabermetirics Ever Negoiate?
Reading intend is what negoiating (like poker) is all about.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2010 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Brian Sabean didn’t hold out for more money knowing his HRs would plummet. LaRoche is a greedy moron who’s gonna have to eat his cheap cake in AZ.
Matt Cain's right hand beats a Royal Flush.
by Viva Gigantes on Jan 14, 2010 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
And that’s the point, like Sabean, he misplayed his market. ;)
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
then that was a really quick turnaround misplay.
How could his agent misplay the market so poorly? Maybe the giant story was just put out there to drive up his price. If the story is really true, (unlikely) Sabean must be scratching his head. I offer the guy Renteria type money, and he turns it down to play in the same division, and have to hit against the giants, and then they guy take about a quarter of what Sabes was offering. I want to deal with this agent when I am hiring people. If there were only two teams left in the market, why would he turndown the sabean offer? Still see some fishiness in the stories.
It was a quick turnaround because the Giants were out of the market as soon as they signed Huff. That changed things for LaRoche quickly. Yeah, I do think the agent should take a lot of blame for that – it was obviously a bad decision by LaRoche to turn down the Giants offer, which ended up being much better than anyone else’s (are we surprised by that?)…
by Missing Barry on Jan 14, 2010 8:23 PM PST up reply actions
Because you assume that the offer was made at the same time of the rumor.
The offer was probably a week or two old before news of it leaked. From the perspective of the Giants’ payroll, the LaRoche offer only makes sense if it occured before DeRosa and Uribe signed, at whih point the market for corner infielders was much more robust. Sicne then, the Red Sox, Giants, and Mariners (probably the three richest options) have removed themselves from contention for LaRoche’s services.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
If the numbers that are being reported are true
LOLaRoche
Player A’s contract: 4.5 Million Base, 8.5 Million Team Option
LaRoche’s contract: 4.5 Million Base. 7.5 Million Mutual Option
The Kicker-Player A is… Garrett Atkins!
Yes Garrett Atkins could make more money than Adam LaRoche. LOL
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
Mutual Option Does Give Him The Choice Of Free Agency Next Year With A Big Year This Year
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 8:19 PM PST up reply actions
Still the fact that their contracts are comparable is crazy
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
hopefully he has fun battling for 4th place with the padres getting paid the same as garret atkins.
"The criticism was so brutal that Sabean was forced to declare, at a press conference, "I am not an idiot." Thus, the pattern of Sabean's relationship to his critics was established."
Dbacks Could Be Good Again In 2010
Upton/Reynolds/LaRoche is a pretty good middle of the order and Haren/Webb/Jackson is a pretty good top three of the rotation.
by giantsrainman on Jan 14, 2010 8:34 PM PST up reply actions
that’s true, but hopefully the three of them spend the season making a run for Reynolds strikeout mark.
"The criticism was so brutal that Sabean was forced to declare, at a press conference, "I am not an idiot." Thus, the pattern of Sabean's relationship to his critics was established."
And, they’ll need to overcome their manager’s ineptitude.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 14, 2010 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
thatd cost like a win at worst. a lot of good teams have dumb managers. if we did it, anyone can.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jan 15, 2010 1:48 AM PST up reply actions
It's not AT&T that makes free agents so expensive for the Giants.
It’s Sabean.
Given Sabean’s laughable reputation around the league, LaRoche’s agent probably thought he could really work over Sabean and get way more money from the Giants than anywhere else. Unfortunately for LaRoche, he got a little greedy and he didn’t count on Sabean going after Huff.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
LaRoche overplayed his hand
he thought he get Sabes to pay more money. That didn’t happen, and nobody else was going to give him the cash he wanted
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
LaRoche's loss, Giants win!!!
The Giants saved a ton of money, everyone just has to be patient because they are going to make a huge trade for a big bat, ie Dan Uggla or Prince Fielder… no need to panic now. Signing Huff did not hurt because its only 3 million and we all know he can adjust to the right field. Giants aquire Uggla, Pablo at 1st base, Sanchez at 3rd, Huff right field, and 2nd Ugla. Everyone be patient!
DUBfan4life!!!!
by BayAreaKidd650 on Jan 15, 2010 12:01 PM PST reply actions
Well, I started to type a response, but then realized there’s too much wrong here and I don’t want to take the time….so….no. That’s all I’ll say.
by Missing Barry on Jan 15, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
Cat Is Out Of The Bag
Proof that AT&T is a pitchers park where hitters go to die. LaRoche has a career to think about. Forget the $17 mil. Surely his future career earning will exceed that, won’t they? Plus he will avoid his career ending prematurely in SF? Injuries and younger lower paid prospects have a way of pushing mid 30 year old players out of the game.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, that is what my cat always tells me. Is the 2011 free agency really going to better than the 2010’s tight second tier money? Are we creating more or less jobs for Americans in 2011? Will they spend our money watching baseball games then?
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
Maybe I interpret this wrong, but doesnt this go against your argument?
And your saying he should have passed up 17 million so that he can possibly make more later? Well I hope he realizes that he is in his prime right now, and honestly this off season was probably the biggest payday he will get.
GrahamCrakalaka
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 17, 2010 1:45 AM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
- Giancarlo Stanton misses cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
