If the Giants were actually playing to win...
by hairball on Sep 4, 2009 3:39 PM PDT
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PrintI kid, I kid. But if you were the manager, and you were only able to work with the players on the roster, what do you think the best lineup could be right now, and why? I'm including Sanchez in mine, because I think he'll probably be off the DL soon enough. If you want to visualize the more immediate version, replace him with Uribe and put Renteria at SS.
Lewis LF
Sanchez 2B
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Bowker RF
Uribe SS
Rowand CF
Ishikawa/Garko platoon 1B
This lineup accomplishes several things. First, it maximizes OBP, with Lewis, Posey and Bowker all in key roles. Second, it maximizes power, by getting Bowker and Uribe in ahead of Winn and Renteria. Third, it puts the biggest "meh" players at the bottom of the lineup. Finally, it gives you a chance to really test the kids. Make Schierholtz and Rohlinger your go-to pinch-hitters, and FORGET ABOUT PLAYING GUYS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE VETERANS OR MAKE A LOT OF MONEY.
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Well, I think you need to have more platoon players than this
With this team. I don’t really want to see Lewis or even Bowker face LHP at this stage.
I would posit that Vs. LHP we should be using Torres and Nate in the OF.
Other than that, your lineup doesn’t look half bad.
WTF does Bochy have against platoons?
It really seems like Sabean has constructed things specifically for platoons. It’s getting to be re-friggin-diculous.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Well
Platoons happen when the players you have aren’t that good.
Effectively using a platoon is one of the few things (along w/ lineup construction) that a manager actually has control over.
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Platoons happen when the players you have aren’t that good.
and that they’re better hitters against pitchers from one side… Ishi and Nate are both batting much better against LHP than RHP (in few AB, but still…)
As a few august souls posted in one of the 55,000 Fred threads, one of the great/terrible things about this roster, particularly the outfield, is that they’re almost totally fungible. The OF shouldn’t so much be platooned as rotated.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"Waaaaah!"-Bengie Molina
by natteringnabob on Sep 6, 2009 6:06 AM PDT up reply actions
AGAINST platoons?
The guy who’s been alternating Garko and Ishikawa, and regularly starting Torres in LF against left handed pitching, has something against platoons? That’s news to me.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
It's not just Bochy.
Most managers don’t like platoons. If anything, Bochy’s proven more open to the idea than most. He certainly never had an issue platooning Roberts.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I would also suggest
That you want to have your 3 highest OBP players bat before your highest AVG players… Because while walks are awesome, they don’t really drive in runs. So you want guys who get on base Via the walk (Lewis, Bowker, Posey) in the 1-3 spots you want guys who get on base via the Bat (Sandoval, Rowand, Uribe, Sanchez) batting after them.
I guess with that in mind I’d rather see something like
Lewis
Bowker
Posey
Sandoval
Sanchez
Rowand
Uribe
1b Platoon.
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
And what I mean by walks don't drive in runs
Is you want to hedge your bets on the order of things. If your inning is gonna include walk/walk/double then you’d rather they came in that order than double walk walk.
The proclivity of players to do the above should guide the order.
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I like this lineup
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Bowker hasnt really proven he can walk at the major league level (Not his fault). But I do like this lineup a fuckload more than anything Bochy is putting out there.
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
SCIENCE
by CB30 on Sep 4, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ehh...
My OF would be Bowker/Velez/Schierholtz. I’m not convinced Sanchez will be fit to hit the rest of the year, so Uribe stays at 2B. I don’t know if Posey is ready to start defensively, but if he is…
Velez
Posey
Bowker
Sandoval
Schierholtz
Uribe
Garko
Renteria
[Pitcher]
Sanchez played last night and is expected to rejoin the team Monday….maybe even sooner
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
Leading off with a guy who makes an out over 78% of the time isn’t smart.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
And by 78%
I obviously mean 68%.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
Dude, I about to burn you with a 100 - 32 = 68 in your face...
but I guess it’s too late now.
I picked Velez because Fred plays only LF (barely), but Velez can play 5 positions (sort of) in case you need to move players around in the late innings. Velez is the only guy in that lineup with SB speed so I lead him off.
If I had to use Sanchez, Uribe goes to SS, Edgar goes to the dugout.
Sanchez would then bat leadoff and Velez would bat 8th.
Velez has SB speed
But he’s actually not any good at stealing bases. So what’s the point? He doesn’t have a particularly good OBP, either. If you were gonna have him in the lineup, you’d probably want him to hit 5th or 6th to take advantage of his SLG. Also, if he did get on base you could take advantage of his rather limited SB skills, since he wouldn’t be potentially wasting an out with a good hitter at the plate.
And he cannot play 5 defensive positions. I assume you’re counting SS? Hahahaha
The ting about SB speed
Is that I’ve always prefered the team’s best base stealers to be 5/6th in the order. The 1/2 hitters don’t need the speed, because you don’t really want them running wild in front of your (presumably) most competent hitters. The guys who could really use the help of a SB are the guys who can’t be depended upon to produce an extra base hit or string together a couple singles with any sort of consistency, the guys in the bottom of the order.
Not that it really matters with this one-hitter lineup.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Velez played an occasional SS in the minors.
5th is the spot in the batting order for reserve power. Somebody good for 20+ homers but slugs below .500.
6th is not really an SLG spot, and 7th is where the high-K Rob Deer sluggers should go.
Having the main SB threat bat 1st is baseball tradition for a reason — it works. The #1 hitter is the one least likely to encounter an RBI opportunity since he follows the weak hitter batting 8th and the pitcher’s 9th spot. Thus, the SB guy must hit leadoff to put himself into scoring position in an inning when he bats with empty bases after the first inning.
The job of the leadoff hitter is to get on base. Therefore, you should have a guy who’s good, or at least decent, at getting on base.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
Technically, it’s the job of every Goddamn batter to reach base. The fleetest of foot should hit #1 in the order.
Is Velez really that fleet of foot? He has all of 5 SB so far, went 16 for 25 in the minors (ugh!) and, as has been discussed many times on here, doesn’t really play like you would expect a guy with his speed to (taking forever to get out of the batter’s box, never really running once he actually gets on base, etc etc.)
Add that to his OBP woes and I can’t really see any argument for PLAYING him at all, let alone batting him leadoff.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Photo of Velez playing SS
"Trust me: If I’m feeling lousy at the plate like that, I’m not just going to walk up there with bases loaded and get a hit because I’m some great clutch hitter." - Mr. F!
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Getting on base is waaaaay more important than stealing bases, and Velez isn’t much better than Lewis at it anyway, if at all. Benching Lewis for a lesser player just for the chance that it might make it a bit easier to do a double switch is pretty damn weird. Also, what’s the 5th position? SS? You can’t possibly be serious.
Pro Tip: If you think a guy should either bat 1st or 8th, you’re doing something wrong. If he’s bad enough to hit 8th, he should be allowed to hit 1st, where he’s going to get more PA’s than anyone on the team.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
It's not weird -- That's NATIONAL LEAGUE...
BASEBALL, bitches!
In his minor league career Velez played 6 different positions, but I tossed aside the single solitary time he did RF because he had 0 Chances.
Bad enough to hit 8th, so hit him leadoff?
The #8 hitter, if he’s the reserve SB guy, is the team’s emergency leadoff hitter when the usual #1 is unavailable or needs a day off. The best example of such a player was Ozzie Smith. The logic of having the reserve SB guy hit #8 has to do with the fact the Pitcher is #9. Walk — steal — bunt — grounder — score.
That's NL?
Right, because, as we all know, it’s common knowledge that you should bench good players for bad ones just because it might help you do a double switch. Especially with expanded rosters, when you have tons of players on the bench, and can easily just make defensive substitutions to make the double switch work anyway. That’s solid logic right there.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
Velez hitz for variety, so he playz somewherez.
Fred doesn’t get enough hits to justify the lack of D and surfeit of K. Velez doesn’t have the confidence to actually attempt SB yet, it seems, but he’ll get around to it — I hope.
No Eddie hitting 2nd?
"Trust me: If I’m feeling lousy at the plate like that, I’m not just going to walk up there with bases loaded and get a hit because I’m some great clutch hitter." - Mr. F!
comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I want Buster in there, but...
has a player ever gone straight to the #3 hole to start his big-league career? Seems like a lot of pressure to put on a guy.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
I'm glad I'm not the only one
who hasn’t had any Kool-Aid yet. Maybe Posey will be the next Pablo, but if he’s going to skip AA and most of AAA, maybe he can pinch hit a few times or even bat lower in the order once before he’s installed in the heart of the lineup.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"Waaaaah!"-Bengie Molina
by natteringnabob on Sep 6, 2009 5:59 AM PDT up reply actions
We can build on this!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
There Is Not A Manager In Baseball That Would Bench Molina And Winn In A Playoff Drive
for un MLB provens like Posey and Bowker. There is not a clubhoouse in MLB that would not be torn apart if their manager actually did this. This suggestion and it’s mass agreement show just how out of touch with reality so many here are.
I said something similar this morning. This is sad but true. However, Bowker is a different story than Posey. He’s been here over the last two years and if Bochy thinks he gives them the best chance of winning, I think he would play him and nobody would complain.
proud father of Edgar (Grandslam) Renteria
There is a front office, however that fired their manager in a playoff drive
and they got into the playoffs
There was this one manager who got fired in our division
And suddenly the team became the hottest team in baseball. For some odd reason, I can’t remember who or when this happened. Seemed to involve some purple dinosaur dancing behind home plate, though.
"I never watched baseball on TV. It's slow and boring. I'm not a fan. Never was." - Jeff Kent
Hahaha Another Blind Man Who Wont Let HIs Ignorance See REality
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
That’s cool. We’ll just sit on our hands while better players are on the bench and watch other teams make the playoffs because we’re too chicken shit to hurt feelings. Winn has already said he doesn’t care and he just wants to win. Molina is just a baby.
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 5, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
maybe not
but I bet there are 29 that wouldn’t write him in as cleanup hitter every day
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"Waaaaah!"-Bengie Molina
by natteringnabob on Sep 6, 2009 6:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think you can put Bowker in right; there’s just too much room out there. You have choose between him and Lewis, and suck it up with Winn or Schierholtz in right.
At home...
…you’re right. At AT&T you practically need two CFs. On the road, though, RF is not any tougher range-wise than left, generally.
Well, that’s true. I’d want Bowker to have played the position before, though, and I’m not sure that he has.
one thing they've actually done righ
I know we all lambasted them for “25 CFs LOLZ” over the past couple of years, but making it a priority to have good fielders like Winn and Nate out there (and even Cruz although that’s not such a great memory) has been smart.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"Waaaaah!"-Bengie Molina
by natteringnabob on Sep 6, 2009 6:12 AM PDT up reply actions
You gotta have Nate in there
The poor guy had one real slump this year and hasn’t sniffed regular playing time since, all the while Randy Winn hits slow roller to first after slow roller to first. While you’re lineup is much better than the current lineup and loads better than last night’s, I’d go with this:
Velez/Lewis platoon LF
Sanchez 2B
Sandoval 3B
Posey/Molina C
Schierholtz RF
Uribe SS
Rowand/Velez CF
Ishikawa/Bowker platoon 1B
Lewis would be my LF with Velez in CF with a righty on the mound and Velez is in left with Rowand the sacrificial lamb batting 8th against lefties. Also, Velez is always my leadoff batter with Lewis moving to 8th against righties. This will have to do until Tampa buys out Crawford and SF offers him the moon to roam the outfield next year.
I’m still surprised by how many people actually want to bench or platoon Rowand. The guy isn’t perfect, but he is an above-average defender (something Velez is not) and is a decent – but not great or even really good – hitter. The problem is that he’s super-streaky which prevents him from ever being used for extended periods in the upper half of the line-up. But this doesn’t mean he shouldn’t play. His OPS+ (101) is tied for second on the team among guys with more than 200 PAs. Okay, so that’s more an indictment of this team than anything, but the point remains: he shouldn’t sit. This is especially true against righties this year, whom he’s actually kind of hitting well against (tOPS+ of 121), which is a reverse of his career split. Anyway, my point is that on this team Aaron Rowand should play and he should play often and this should remain the case until his production actually deteriorates or another CFer actually is a better player.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Yeah, I honestly can not believe that someone would really want to bench Rowand… for Velez of all people. WTF?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Conversely, I’m surprised at how many people point to the streakiness of players such as Rowand and Winn as a reason for them to play regularly. This offense is absolutely terrible and Rowand is by no means the greatest offender but still deserves some of the blame. As for playing Velez regularly, he’s the second best offensive player with an injured Sanchez right now. The guy can hit under pressure (see the top of the 14th of the game that should never be mentioned again) and I’m a little nervous about the possibility of a bench banishment once Sanchez comes back. Yes, right now he can’t catch a cold, but he’s working on it. In fact, he made a nice play yesterday to preserve the Cain victory. Ideally in a few years Velez is a super utility guy spelling perennial all stars like Sanchez, Kieschnick, Copeland, and Carl Crawford (hopefully TB still needs to trim payroll). Unfortunately right now I don’t see the benefit in voluntarily sitting the 2nd best offensive option with quite possibly the worst contending offense in the history of baseball.
by helloooonoonan on Sep 6, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions
This is what I suggested the other day
vs RHP:
Winn RF
Sanchez 2B
Posey C
Sandoval 1B
Bowker LF
Rowand CF
Uribe 3B
Renteria SS
vs LHP
Torres LF
Sanchez 2B
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Garko 1B
Schierholtz RF
Rowand CF
Uribe SS
The lineup vs. LHP makes sense
Vs RHP, you would move Uribe to 3rd in order to get Ishikawa out of the lineup, but keep Renteria? Really?
Also, though the lineup vs. LHP makes sense, I don’t expect Posey to be batting 3rd right out of the gate.
I’d hit him third simply because he can take a pitch. If he draws walks he would extend innings and put Pablo up with somebody on base for once.
You guys
I pretty much convinced myself this morning while I was walking the dog that next year, the lineup is going to look like this:
LF Velez
2B Sanchez
3B Sandoval
C Molina
1B Garkokawa
RF Schierholtz (though I wouldn’t be surprised to just see Winn back here…)
CF Rowand
SS Renteria
and they’re not going to understand why we go 75-87 next year instead of 87-75.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I am going to sacrifice many chickens this winter in the hope that they bring Bengie back. And there is just no way that Velez is a better player than Fred, but I do fully expect the brass to make FBAL a full-time player and and Fred a sideshow oddity.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Excuse me, the hope that DON’T bring Bengie back. Goddamn I would be so pissed if Bengie is the starter next year.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I think as long as Velez keeps up a line something like .270/.315/.410, he’ll be handed the LF and leadoff job next Spring.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Something to talk about next year!
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 5, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
thanks for that bit of cheer
/sucks on exhaust pipe
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"Waaaaah!"-Bengie Molina
by natteringnabob on Sep 6, 2009 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions
My 2 Lineups
Vs. RHP
Fred Lewis (LF)
Buster Posey ©
John Bowker (RF)
Pablo Sandoval (3B)
Freddy Sanchez (2B)
Aaron Rowand (CF)
Juan Uribe (SS)
Travis Ishikawa/Ryan Garko (1B)
Vs. LHP
Andres Torres (LF)
Freddy Sanchez (2B)
Buster Posey ©
Pablo Sandoval (3B)
Ryan Garko (1B)
Juan Uribe (SS)
Nate Schierholtz (RF)
Aaron Rowand (CF)
by AmorVincitOmnia on Sep 5, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions
Freddy Sanchez.......
“Let’s include him even though he’s on the DL”
You all DO realize this guy is going to keep getting hurt over and over. Congratulations on managing to replace a fragile Ray Durham with an even more fragile Freddie Sanchez Mr. Sabean. No, I wouldn’t count on putting Sanchez in my line up.
The two types of crazy people: Dodger fans and those who think Neeley was better than Gillan.
This post is old, but it's amazing
In the wildest rosterbation fantasies of the McCoven, a player with 0 ML AB bats third, and the 1B(s) bat(s) eighth?
And, since rosters have expanded, this is the best the Ginats can manage from the entire system?
Who’s rowing this failboat anyway?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"Waaaaah!"-Bengie Molina
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