Brian Sabean: To retain, or not to retain
by Grant Brisbee on Sep 30, 2009 10:07 AM PDT
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PrintThe decision to retain or release Bruce Bochy is sort of nuanced. At least, you can make an argument that it's nuanced. For all of the grumbling about his lineup construction, it's possible that some sort of leadership je ne sais quoi is more important than anything he does on the field. Likely, no. Possible, I guess so.
If I were in charge of the decision to retain or release Brian Sabean, though, it would be an amazingly simple process. I'd ask a single question. There wouldn't be an in-depth interview to see if I'm letting him go. There wouldn't be a tallying up of the pros and cons over his 13-year Giants career. One question:
How much do you think Bengie Molina contributes to the Giants' offense? Don't think about his position, how he is in the clubhouse, or how he handles a pitching staff. Just focus on what you think he contributes to the team's efforts to score runs.
The litmus test plays for the team. How lucky we are. If Sabean responds with...
Well, Bengie is a guy who we can count on for the big hit when we need it, so...
Fired. The subject was meteorology, and you just gave an answer about rain dances. And, not incidentally, they actually keep track of the things you're talking about, and you're wrong. Fired.
Well, Bengie is really the only RBI man we have, and...
Fired. The subject is advanced computer science, and you just started talking about how your Apple II+ doesn't work when you shove punch cards in it. The world has moved on. Now we will too. This isn't a Moneyball scouts-vs.-stats thing; just about every organization knows to evaluate players beyond stats like batting average and RBI.
Well, Bengie had a lot asked of him, but he isn't really a cleanup hitter. But he's still the driving force behind our offense, and he's the reason we were able to score enough to even contend this late in the season.
Fired. Part of me thinks that if you asked Sabean why the Giants are at the bottom of the league in runs scored, he'd legitimately start with situational hitting. He'd be incapabale of saying, "That guy was a disappointment, that guy was a flop, that guy just stunk, that guy...." But another, much smaller, part of me thinks that the question might get an answer like this...
Look, I know the guy can't get on base. I know he kills a lot of rallies with his impatient hacking. I know he's slow. I know he's not a traditional cleanup hitter. But if we could get some guys around him -- get him down to the #7 spot -- he's not a bad guy to have in a lineup. But, man, I'm not going to go to Andrew Baggarly and say that sort of thing on the record. What kind of idiot do you think I am?
I'm listening. We'll get into his claim that Bengie's not a bad guy to have in a lineup later, as that's certainly debatable, but that answer would provide so much information. Sabean is aware that outs are bad, and there isn't any amount of clutch hitting that can overcome that basic truth. The answer would mean that Sabean has a good idea of why the offense was so bad this season.
The hypothetical answers were in order of likelihood, mind you. I don't have a lot of faith right now. But if I were Bill Neukom, I would start the interview with just one question. It would probably save a lot of time.
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I would very much like Brian Sabean to not be employed by the Giants.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 30, 2009 10:09 AM PDT reply actions
I hear the Dodgers may have an opening. May we can trade Sabes for Kim Ng
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Not fair
They’d have to fork over Matt Kemp too…. please?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
LOL
women can’t GM!
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
Read my signature
I’ve had this for three years.
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you
by milesntrane on Sep 30, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
if you asked Sabean why the Giants are at the bottom of the league in runs scored, he’d legitimately start with situational hitting. Fred Lewis
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
+1
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 30, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Bengie’s “clutch” stats this year make me lol.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
The amazing thing is that if you look at almost literally any stat other than BA, SLG, or DINGERZ, he’s not very good with the stick. Hell, even a fairly common (and intuitive) stat like OPS says that he’s not that good.
Actually, even by BA he’s not good. Slugging from a catcher is about it (DINGERZ being included in slugging).
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
So slugging is no good anymore?
And why the meme about dingerz? That’s always confused me.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Well, people look at the fact that he hits 20 DINGERZ and ignore the fact that he doesn’t really do much with the 430 odd other ABs he gets in a year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
But if strikeouts are looked at as an all-important stat because it takes th defense out of it, why not dingerz?
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
I don’t really get the argument. Obviously DINGERZ are great. I love home runs. I wish the Giants would hit more of them.
The trouble with Bengie Molina is that he doesn’t do anything useful on offense except for hit home runs.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I’m not even really talking about Bengie though. I’m talking abut the meme of making fun of anybody who uses home runs as a reason why a player might be good.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
It’s about people who use homers and homers alone, and ignore every other facet of his offensive game.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
Or his defensive game. Witness people desperate for us to trade for Jermaine Dye at the deadline.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Also Adam Dunn
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
“but we wouldn’t be getting him to play defense”
I just cannot wrap my mind around that statement.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Homers are important. They are the best thing a hitter can do. Which is why we use weighted averages (wOBA) – it weights everything a player does on offense by how important it is, and home runs are the most important thing, and when you add it all up, Bengie comes up as one of the worst hitters in the league. It’s because his other stuff is so bad that his homers don’t offset it and he still sucks.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
SLG’ing is good. All things equal, more SLG’ing = better player. Sure. The problem is in Bengie’s case he doesn’t have the other complements. We’re getting SLG’ing in place of things that matter more than power. Namely, not making outs. That is a very bad thing. To put it in perspective, using wOBA (which correctly values how much BB’s, 1B’s, 2B’s, 3B’s and HR’s matter), Bengie Molina is the 15th worst hitter in MLB. Out of a C, with decent players around him, that could be ok. Unfortunately, the Giants also have 2 regulars (Renteria, Winn) who are even worse than Bengie…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, almost literally the only positive contribution on offense he provides is HRs. For someone who hits “so many” HRs, he has really few doubles.
that’s because he stretches them into singles.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
“fat ass singles”
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know why...
But I laughed really hard at that.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Sep 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t that be compressing them into singles?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Bengie Molina is so fat...
that his mass length contracts doubles into singles!
He sits on them into singles.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Pedro Feliz was always good for 20 homers, but he wasn’t a good hitter.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
how about another question--
Do you consider the Aaron Rowand signing to be a good move?
JT Sabean?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Actually, I was listening to a Blue Jays podcast this morning
they were talking about the Alex Rios trade, and it made me realise that
signing Aaron Rowand meant that they didn’t have to trade Lincecum for Rios. In their minds, at least.
Not saying that it’s a good deal, or anything, but it could have been a lot worse
that’s what it’s come to. this organization makes so many bad decisions that i’m happy with them not making the worst decision.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
Where would we be if we made that trade?
I for one would have more time, invested my time into the stock market, and would be sleeping on a bed of money, with many beautiful women.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Oct 1, 2009 4:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Sabean and Boch ...
… will get a 3 year extension each. I have no problem replacing Sabean if we can get someone legit – but I don’t see a rookie Owner having the balls to do that quite yet.
I’d love to see each of them get 2 year deals, but I have to figure the min will be 3.
How about 10 game deals, with options for every 10 games after? I don’t know who suggested it, but I like it.
Do you remember . . . ?
Walter Alston? Twenty-three years of one-year contracts. It’s not a radical new idea. . . .
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I don’t hate Sabean as much as lot of folks around here, but I think it’s time to give someone else a shot at running the Giants.
Consider the jerking of youngsters out of the lineup based on small sample sizes, the refusal to realize when veterans have outlived their usefulness, the trading of prospects for mediocre veterans, the mid-range contracts to mediocre veterans, etc.
I think the Giants could bring in someone new (whether it be a stats- or scouts-oriented person) and still build on the team’s strengths, such as the good drafts, development of young pitchers, etc.
I think, at this point, with Sabean we’re basically treading water. Since 2005, the team’s HIGHEST OPS+ is 90. the absolute HIGHEST! And that includes two teams that had Barry Bonds on them, putting up 156 in 493 PA and 170 is 477. That’s just pathetic. It should be absolutely inexcusable that, in the last five seasons, Sabean hasn’t been able to put together anything even slightly resembling an AVERAGE major league offense and it doesn’t seem like they’re going to find a way to do it in the next couple years either. He’s had like five years to put one together and he can’t do it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
This
I don’t hate Sabean, and I won’t consider it the end of the world if he’s brought back. But I’ll be extremely disappointed and very irritable about our short term future.
I’d like a fresher mind with new ideas to be brought in.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
The problem is, treading water isn’t good enough. We have Cain, Sanchez and Lincecum under team control for relatively cheap right now, same for Sandoval. By the time Sabean proves he’s incompetent to Neukom, those players will be gone and/or expensive. The Giants have posted a sub-.310 team wOBA the past 2 years (3 years ago it was .311)…simply put, that’s not going to cut it, and it looks like by the time the higher ups actually realize Sabean isn’t qualified for his job, it will be too late to take advantage of the talent we have right now.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
There’s still a chance – albeit a SLIM chance – that Neukom will know all he needs to know in order to not renew Sabean. I’m very hopeful that Neukom can see through the success of the team this year and understand that Sabean hasn’t built this team well.
But I’m very concerned he’s just going to reward a + .500 record.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
yep…but you’d hope a guy who is probably one of the most successful lawyers in the country would have a better thought process. We will see
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
it has lately. Have you seen their collection of young talent? They pose a bigger threeat to the Sox-Yanks over the next 5+ years than the Rays
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s about damn time, too.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I would guarantee
they have a better team than us over the next 5 years. I’d trade all of our players top to bottom for theirs. AL East is going to be even beastlier soon
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, no
This is just blatantly wrong. The Rays have a better MLB team and a better farm system.
Not correct.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
yep, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe this is why Sabean still has a job. They keep trying to fire him, but he just won’t leave.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
They’re going to have to move the team to St. Pete just to be rid of him.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
You Take That Back !
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
hahaha.
Bochy: should I play Buster?
I would prefer not to
Bochy: maybe I should bench Renteria?
I would prefer not to.
We just need a manager who asks better questions!
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Oct 1, 2009 4:33 AM PDT up reply actions
You’re giving Sabean too much credit Grant. He really does think those things. He was a Division II College coach for two years in Florida. (Tampa) That is exactly how college coaches at that level evaluated players in the mid-1980s. For krissakes, he’ still wearing fucking mullet
by E Ticket on Sep 30, 2009 10:45 AM PDT reply actions
I don’t mind the job Sabean has been doing the past few seasons in a vaccuum, but I have a hard time believing that Bochy playing Vets routinely and mishandling young players is 100% Bochy. Part of that comes the front office, it has to. For this reason, he has to go.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 30, 2009 10:45 AM PDT reply actions
On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, I think the reason he ended up here is probably because that behavior gels so well with Sabean’s beliefs about “good baseball teams”.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
He was still under contract in SD, and we had to be given permission to talk to him. Towers pretty much opened up the door and rolled out the carpet for us.
See: Castilla, Vinny
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
This was pretty well documented at the time we got him. Had Sabean not liked Bochy’s veteran love, I’ve got to think he might have given Manny Acta a shot.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I’ve got to think he might have given Manny Acta a shot.
Now you’re just trying to piss me off.
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
he wouldn’t have lasted here as long as he has unless there was at least passive agreement with Bochy’s managing style
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 30, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I am not going to re-join this argument again as it becomes a cherry picked irrational escalation. Sabean should be allowed to finish the rebuild. It is going much better than anyone expected it would.
The funk we have experienced over the past few years basically comes down to the organization’s addiction to Bonds’ home-runs. There is considerable doubt as to how much Sabean had to do with that. There is anecdotal accounts aplenty on both sides of that, but no first hand accounts of what occurred, so just leave it alone. Same for the Zito contract. There is plenty to hang on Sabean surely, but the recovery is also going much better than anyone on this site thought it would.
This off-season will be a huge test. Uribe, and Sanchez will be huge factors. I expect that Uribe could end up being Durham all over again so lets hold our breath on that one. If he fumbles on those tests along with getting a thumper then I will cross over. But you have to also see that we will probably have to part with either Cain or J. Sanchez to get that thumper.
Bochy on the other hand, is not the correct manager for this team. This season has convinced me of that and I agree with everyone who calls for his head. (Why was Winn in the line-up again last night?)
The question is this. Is the funk, this season, or the previous two?
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure how rebuilding is going well when we should have been rebuilding for the last 5 years? How is letting Randy Winn be 2nd on the team in PA’s “rebuilding”, exactly? If Sabean at any point had started an actual rebuilding, that thought might have some merit, but we’re still not a playoff team and we still have yet to make an actual commitment to rebuilding. Unless trading two of our top 3 pitching prospects for rent-a-shitty-veterans is rebuilding…?
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Sabean does not write the line-up. Winn’s PA are on Bochy. There is plenty of doubt as to Sabean’s responsibility for the “Win Now for Barry” philosophy. No one here has first hand knowledge that it was Sabean or McGowan or both of them. So it is pointless to argue it.
The facts are that the Gints were in the top of MLB in pitching and defense. The pitching staff is Sabean’s creation. Some facts do not change, and that is a championship team is generally built around pitching and defense. This team has done well and generally avoids long slumps because of it. The Nationals were one of the best hitting teams this year, but will be picking first again in June. Look at the pitching stats and you will find all of the play-off bound teams at or near the top in runs allowed and ERA.
However, this team does not have hot streaks either and that can be blamed on the offense. The entire planet knows that we need to improve there. Some of it will be home grown, but some will have to be obtained by trade. Cain and J. Sanchez are the most logical chips.
There is also doubt as to the real potential of Tim Alderson, there was plenty of evidence that he was peaking in “AA”. A a pitcher succeeding in “A” is a long way from being a sure thing. So I don’t really give that argument much creedence. Plenty of others will though.
that is a championship team is generally built around pitching and defense
This is CW, not a fact.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
The CW is a terrible channel.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
The pitching staff is Sabean’s creation.
And Tidrow’s.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
See, I hate this argument that because TimA had lost some of his shine, it was okay that we traded him for an injured overrated second baseman.
Alderson still had value in a trade. It sounds as though the Pirates pretty much DEMANDED him in return for Sanchez and Sabean had to be convinced to do it. Regardless of what his future looks like, he was a player with value. And the Giants used that value to acquire a player who was injured at the time and, shockingly, has remained injured since.
I strongly believe the Giants could have made much better use of Alderson than they did.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Also, when a top prospect right when he’s apparently losing some of his shine is exactly the wrong time to trade him.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Well, not necessarily, I think if you sense that he might be at the peak of his value, it could be a great time to trade him. And Sabean said that was what he thought.
The fact that he thought that that meant acquiring a 30+ year old injured second baseman for him was a great idea because he won a batting title 3 years ago is not the way I’d like to see “selling high” go.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
If he’d “lost his shine,” though, wouldn’t the peak of his value have been, say, six months earlier?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I dunno, Sabean said he thought Alderson was possibly at the peak of his value at the time of the trade.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Fair enough, but there’s a disconnect between that an the trade’s defenders, who are always going on about how Sanchez was a good return for Alderson because Alderson’s stock was falling.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I just don’t think there was much more you could get for him.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Maybe not straight up, but as part of a package?
In addition, if his value has dropped that much… keep him. Maybe if you have Barnes, Alderson AND Bumgarner in your farm system this offseason, you can be more willing to trade someone like MadBum for a real impact player than you would be if the minor league pitching depth is really only Bumgarner.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
He was drafted in 08, and players have to be in an organization for at least one year prior to being traded. Trading him six months before would’ve been a no-go.
Alderson was drafted in '07 with Bumgarner
Posey was ’08
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
Sabean is Bruce Bochy’s boss. Whether he writes the lineup or not, these are decisions that are so dumb any responsible GM would step in and put a stop to it. If you’ve read Moneyball you’d get a first hand account to how Beane had to step in when “baseball wisdom” was flat out wrong and made sure his manager did things the correct way. So yes, I do blame Sabean for allowing this to happen.
What argument don’t you give much creedance? That we aren’t rebuilding? How about instead of dismissing an overall point that rebuilding is going poorly with your personal questions regarding Alderson you show me how we’re “rebuilding well”? Explain how playing guys like Velez based on one small sample hot streak while sitting guys who are more likely to succeed (Lewis, Schierholtz, Bowker) is rebuilding? Or how playing terrible veterans is rebuilding?
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s a good read. It’s not all about STATZ at all.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
ALL IT SEZ ARE WALKS MAKE UR TEAM DA BEST
A hearty thank you to Rich Aurilia for all the good memories, and to the Niners for finally getting the uni's (mostly) right.
BILLY BEENE SHOULD STICK TO GENERAL MANAGING INSTEAD OF WRITING
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Speaking of "Moneyball" . . .
Do be sure to read the parts about Beane’s dealings with Sabean.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
It’s a good book and stats are not a main focus of it at all. Even if you’re not into that stuff it’s still a good read.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not against stats at all. This season I’ve learned a lot. I just didn’t want a textbook about how to calculate wOBA.
I’ll have to put that on my ‘to read’ list (along with Catcher in the Rye and 1984).
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
Salinger is a love-him-or-hate-him kind of writer – but I, for one, love him.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
pity about your Fitzy hatred
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
To be fair, it’s really just The Great Gatsby I don’t like. I’ve never read anything else by him.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Really? That and Catcher in the Rye are my favorite books.
Hopefully that doesn’t discourage you from reading the latter.
I think you’re getting the thread mixed up here. I’m the one who said I love Salinger, not the one who wants to read Catcher in the Rye.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
How pedestrian.
My favorite book is A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN. That part where Katie shoots the serial killer in the nuts, by itself, makes TREE an American Classic.
That’s Brooklyn, Bitches!
hokysmkdbw, you should really travel to coors field. I think you might enjoy it. I hear the serve Rocky Mountain Oysters, you might like them.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I never been the Army so I didn’t have the balls to try them.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Dr. T.J. Eckleburg saw you say that!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah it’s definitely not about telling you how to calculate wOBA. Some of the chapters go into certain players lives and tell their stories and how they came to the A’s. Beane is a main character, it goes into his past, how he came up and ended up GM of the A’s, his organizational philosophy and how he was trying to change the rules of baseball and stuff. The fact that he was using new stats is just a small part of the story, really.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
It isn’t even that focused on stats. It’s more about *shock * people behind the stats.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I still haven't finished it
but the half I read was really, really good. Lewis is an awesome writer
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Let it go man. We exceeded expectations this year. He has a task ahead for this off-season. If he fucks it up then fire his ass.
How many WS wins did money ball get Beane?
The same number as Sabean got with 20,000 times the payroll.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Mind you, I’m not a huge Beane fan and I thought he came across as a bit of an arrogant prick in Moneyball, but still, this kind of argument is stupid. Especially when you’re comparing him to Sabean, who’s failed to win a World Series in over a decade when he had a significant payroll and also Barry Bonds for most of the time.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
And the only reason I even brought Beane/Moneyball up in the first place wasn’t to compare them, but to point out with actual, written evidence that good GM’s do, in fact, make sure their managers aren’t messing up the team’s lineup. Bochy’s poor lineups are a failure on Sabean’s part.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
We exceeeded expectations that were set low from Sabean sucking as a GM. That is not a success. I notice you avoided the questions of how we’re rebuilding and instead came up with a ridiculous, meaningless response, “How many WS wins did money ball get Beane?”…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/billy_beane_of_office?utm_source=a-section
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Perfect timing.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
"that is a championship team is generally built around pitching and defense"
Bull.
A championship team generally scores significantly more runs than they allow. Often this is accomplished by a balance of good pitching and good hitting.
Very few teams have won by having excellent pitching and absolute zeros on offense
Agreed to a point. And I feel the Giants are in desperate need of hitting, do not get me wrong. But I also feel that we have a great foundation for future growth with our pitching staff right now. I also think our pitching staff will only get better with better offense, due to the reduced stress it would be forced to endure.
But what makes you think Sabean is capable of building a good offense? He’s had 5 years since 2005 to cobble together something, ANYTHING and rather than show signs of improvement, it’s actually gotten worse.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Shoot, it’s only gotten worse since 2002. And even in 2002, remember how awful that bench was?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
for reference...
that “terrible bench”
Had a .778 OPS at 1B, .749 OPS at SS, .752 OPS at C, and .727 .
Those first 3 are all better than what we got out of those positions form our starters this year
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Just to be honest with you, the likelihood of our pitching staff getting better is not as good as the likelihood they get worse. That’s simply how probability distributions work (when you’re above the distribution mean/median, you’re more likely to be closer to the mean/median that farther)…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
aka the Vinny Castilla Axiom.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 30, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
This year, the Giants have gotten great pitching, and even though they are likely to be good going foward, this is still not a guarantee to repeat this extreme level of dominance.
I don’t see why he gets credit for the turnaround proceeding ahead of schedule, when it might not be sustainable past this year. Woopdie doo…a just over .500 season.
I don’t see why he gets credit for the turnaround proceeding ahead of schedule, when it might not be sustainable past this year. Woopdie doo…a just over .500 season.
It’s just like the economy. People see an improvement and get all excited. Nevermind the fact that we were in a terrible place to begin with and people should be held accountable for that fact…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Do you think Sabean saw it coming?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I figured they had have a shot at between 78 and 83 wins this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It's not as bad as it seems.
This year, the Giants have gotten great pitching, and even though they are likely to be good going foward, this is still not a guarantee to repeat this extreme level of dominance.
Recall that Sanchez was awful in the first half, and that the #5 starter role was, ah, less than stellar throughout. So there’s room for modest degradation in Lincecum and Caine without an overall dropoff in the starting corps.
The bullpen has had some possibly overachieving arms, but it has also had its Hinshaws and Misches and the like, so with care, that, too, could stand some regression and still be OK.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
If you keep misspelling "Cain"
you’re likely to have a Mutiny on your hands.
(thanks, I’m here all week.)
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 30, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude is just a big Michael Caine fan.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Argh!
(I know, I know, Talk Like a Pirate Day was days ago.)
My fingers are faster than my brain (which is no great accomplishment). I am amazed in recent weeks to see on how many quickly typed messages (email, board posts, even an article I’m doing for Deadspin) I am tacking on extra letters to words on a sort of spell-checker-type autopilot.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
More than two days ago, actually.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
He didn’t say two. he just said days.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I have no idea where I got the “two”.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
the #5 starter role was, ah, less than stellar throughout
Yeah, that’s what happens with #5 starters. For all we know Sanchez was just good in the 2nd half, too. We also were healthy with our best pitchers. We obviously have talent and should be one of the better pitching staffs next year, it’s just more likely that we get a worse contribution than a better contribution from them next season.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Sanchez had a 4.69 ERA in the first half and opponents hit .235 against him. Way too many walks, of course, but he was tough to hit and had more than a strike out per inning. That’s not ideal, but it also isn’t awful, especially as fifth starters go.
He had a really good April, actually.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Sanchez was the #5 starter in the first half
Martinez and Sadowski combined for 11 starts, and 5 of them were decent 5th starter material. Penny has the other 5 starts out of the 5 spot and 4 of those were solid. And it’s entirely possible that it could be Martinez or someone like him in the #5 slot next year.
Hinshaw, Misch, and Matos combined for 15 1/3 innings for the Giants this year. Taking them out of the equation makes very little difference. Other than cameo appearances, the only real disappointment in this year’s bullpen was Merkin Valdez. That’s balanced against Wilson, Affeldt, Howry, Medders, Miller, and Romo all performing at or above expectations.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
All basically correct.
But that’s still over 100 innings of mediocrity in the pen (well, I didn’t sort out Martinez’s IP by role, so maybe a little less). Now I did not and do not say that there will be no mediocrities pitching out of the pen in 2010, but there is at least some hope that there might not be, or at least not much, in which case there is some flex to absorb some backsliding in some of the others.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Less than that
Martinez pitched 6 1/3 innings in relief. Valdez is at 49 1/3, so the five underperformers account for 70 innings. The other six guys listed above combined for 350 2/3 which works out very conveniently math wise. So about a sixth of the bullpen innings were thrown by underperformers. Of the rest, I’d expect Affeldt to regress as well as Howry, Medders, and Miller (or their replacements). I think Wilson and Romo might maintain their current levels (and I’d be pretty happy if they did). We’re talking about 240 or so innings thrown by those four overperformers. I think the bullpen overall is much more likely to regress than to maintain this level. But, sure, there’s always hope.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
I think Romo will pitch better ERA-wise next season.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
agreed, he will probably our second best reliever next year. He’s also part of the reason I wouldnt mind tradign Wilson at the right price
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Bingo.
That’s an idea whose time has come. “Closers” are an invented commodity, and—as Billy Beane has repeatedly shown—can be created and sold at a very high markup.
There is enough pitching talent on the roster now, plus, it seems, a good deal more bubbling not far below the surface, that the somewhat nervous-making Wilson could (especially in this winter’s weak market) bring good value in young players just ready for the majors.
Ah, I remember the days of Minton and Lavelle, when the club had two “closers” (not to mention Al Holland).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
"organization’s addiction to Bonds’ home-runs"
Heh…teams should be addicted to home runs. Also, his walks, his other hits.
Whatever his faults, trying to lay blame on Bonds for these crappy lineups is ludicrous.
Actually, I am not arguing against Bonds. I loved him too. I am just saying that the approach of building around him failed. And it also caused us to lose a bunch of first rounders, which explains the barren pantry.
I am just saying that the approach of building around him failed.
That’s fine, but explain to me what’s different now from our “failed approach” before?
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
it failed
because Sabean couldn’t evaluate hitters properly.
which is, as you say, the same as now…but without Bonds to make it look reasonable.
And we surrounded Bonds with overpaid, shitty veterans as opposed to signing a star hitter and cheap filler…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
There were actually only two seasons in the Sabean era when we were without a first round pick. One of those was given up on purpose with Michael Tucker, even though we could’ve signed Tucker a week later without losing the pick. So yeah.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Are you saying that because we had Bonds, Sabean was incapable of signing valuable players to reasonable contracts to compliment him? If so, I agree…and that is exactly why he should be fired. YOU’RE F-F-F-FIRED!
by AndOnTheDrums... on Sep 30, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I think most players would be able to say nice things about him.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I would say nice things about Sabean too if I was an old washed up shitty player and he gave me a lot of money…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
THE OFFENSE KEEPS GETTING WORSE
So, we’re still in the “tearing down phase”?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
“I expect that Uribe could end up being Durham all over again”
Hopefully Sabean expects this as well, and so he only signs him as a utility guy.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Sep 30, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Bochy’s tenure in San Diego was well known to the Giants when they hired him. If they didn’t like him sticking with “his guys”, why hire him in the first place? It’s not like he has star power, a previous connection to the Giants, or a reputation as someone who prime free agents want to play for, so it’s hard to see what would outweigh that if Sabean viewed it negatively.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 30, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Molina’s Game Outcome for Team stats are stunning… granted, it makes sense that the team is better when it wins so most players should be better during wins. But, man…
Molina in Giants’ wins: 68 G, .354/.373/.626/1.000
Molina in Giants’ losses: 63 G, .165/.183/.235/.418
For comparison, Matt Cain: 31 G, .153/.206/.220/.427
As Bengie went, so went the Giants.
That is quite a large split, but if I had to guess, you’d probably find equally large splits for most #3-#5 hitters.
I think that one is probably greater than usual (I looked at Pablo and he has a 1.000+ OPS in wins and about a .715 OPS in losses.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
bRef lists tOps factors (relative to the players’ total stats) and sOps (relative to the league)… Pablo does have a pretty big split and a tOps factor of 62… Molina’s is 18, which is just nuts. No big leaguer should have a .418 OPS in any 63 game split. I’m sure our team ERA is much worse in losses, too… does Molina just phone it in after a starter gives up a few runs? When the team was playing poorly this year, it just killed me to watch Molina at the plate. Now I know that feeling was justified.
I think I made this point yesterday in the Bochy thread:
I want to see some more experimentation with the youth movement. Retaining Bochy and Sabean would be antithetical to this goal. With Sabean constantly bringing in veterans, and pulling the strings on younger players based on small sample sizes whatever manager we have will be forced to compromise any sort of youth movement by inserting VETERAN PRESENCE and such nonsense. With Bochy as the manager this fact only gets exacerbated.
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
my eyes hurt
there was a video game once called “ad infinitum”, anybody remember it? i played it on my comm 64 so i know it’s real. in it you are a pilot shooting other planes down. every level is slightly changed from all the other ones so that, after hours of shooting slightly off green planes, instead of slightly lime green planes, you get the sense that every level is unique. however, this is not the case. the same analogy works for pitfall, loderunner, gauntlet, defender, et al. after hours of gameplay they all blend together and you find yourself unable to distinguish between them. this is how i feel about keeping or firing sabean/ bochy discussions.
i love this site, and i love you guys…i just cant think about these guys (sabean and bochy) anymore because im starting to see a John Carpenter’s “The Thing” type of entity that combines the both of them and i need to erase it with a mental stick of dynamite.
lets talk about obscure video games that you loved as a kid
my entry is “mail order monsters”
i feel better already
Les Plack = more chicks
i claim part ownership of G.I. Joe: Declassified, but only for the funny parts
by Headhunter Rollins on Sep 30, 2009 10:52 AM PDT reply actions
I wonder if it’s possible to have a GM for the pitching and another for the offense.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I was just wondering that myself. Put Sabean in charge of only pitching, bring someone else in for offense.
p.s.
they essentially already have this arrangement (Tidrow evaluates pitching).
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
very much this.
I hate sabean as much as anybody, but if the offense is a “black-eye” then the pitching is a “feather in his cap.”
Turns out you can spell Ugnio Vlz without 4 E's
by The Gene Hackman on Sep 30, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I’d say the offense is more “broken ribs, punctured lungs and 3rd degree burns” than “black eye”.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 30, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
but if the offense is a "black-eye" then the pitching is a "feather in his cap."
Let’s put some historical perspective on this, though. That’s a fair statement for this season, but the hitting has been bad for a long time, and this is the first season the pitching has been that good. Actually, as I was researching the evidence behind this, I found we’ve been 4th in the NL in FIP the last 3 years. That’s pretty consistent, and pretty decent, but not as good as being last, second to last, and last offensively is bad.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
There is also this:
It is much easier to evaluate pitching talent than batting talent. The ERA is an imperfect meaure, but it is a lot closer to being what most people think it is than, say, batting average or RBIs for batters. Old-time baseball attitudes can usually do a better than decent job spotting talent in pitchers; but men who think you need to go to a carnival freak show to see four balls cannot properly evaluate batting talent. A GM or field manager who cannot properly evaluate batting talent cannot be tolerated, even if he can usually recognize pitching talent (as so many can).
Also keep in mind when reviewing Sabean’s track record that even if one can (and I don’t say that one can, but some try to) bring up a good deal to balance against every bad deal, that’s terrible. It would mean a GM who perhaps hasn’t hurt his team, but also one who hasn’t helped it. If a team isn’t constantly improving, its GM needs to go, period the end.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
It is much easier to evaluate pitching talent than batting talent.
I don’t think this is true. Pitching prospects are generally much more likely to be busts than hitting prospects.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
non sequitor
it’s possible that they are more likely to be busts because they have a higher variance. So, it’s harder to “pick” the right ones – but there is less information available. It’s just essentially a more random process.
In theory – I am just saying you cannot use the “bust rate” to answer the question of which type of player is easier to evaluate.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
If it’s a more random process, doesn’t that pretty much mean that it’s harder to do?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
yes
but that’s due to the lack of information.
By definition you can’t be “better” at picking better pitching prospects — the information isn’t there.
Again – that would be assuming the conclusion. I am not saying that it IS or it ISN’T easier to evaluate hitting or pitching prospects — I actually have no idea — but the bust rate doesn’t necessarily tell anything.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Well it tells us something. Not sure what, exactly, but it’s information. Is there any information supporting the other side?
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
To some extent, yes. But that plays into the evaluation of pitchers – figuring out which pitchers are more likely to injure themselves due to mechanical issues and what-have-you.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
That misses the point.
The best of front offices will pick some pitchers who eventually break down—but even a mediocre front office will typically at least be able to avoid pitchers who couldn’t in fact actually pitch well even when healthy.
But many front offices will pick, and even eventually promote up to the Big Club, batters who in fact never were able to bat well but who have one or two flashy traditional stats. Guys who have stats that are solid all round, and add up to good batting, but who aren’t flashy in any one stat are the bargains that a wise team snaps up. (Yes, that was once upon a time called “moneyball”, before the A’s started thinking of other things.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Of course everyone will have some pitchers who break down. That doesn’t mean there’s no way to minimize the risk to some degree, though.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
That is thoroughly true.
But the point was the inability or inability to spot good pitchers in the first place.
(I don’t know that anyone has materially advanced on the fine work Craig Wright did many years ago on young pitchers’ arms and the protection needed therefor. Pitcher Abuse Points are a fun measure, but pretty arbitrary and not awfully predictive.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I often thought this. But more manager than GM. They do it in football, why not baseball? Have one person coach and change pitchers and another coach and make the lineups for the offense? I wouldn’t mind Bochy as much if he was just handling the pitchers.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Pitfalls-
For GM: would be draft picks how do you decide who to take?
Managers: Bochy would never give up the double switch power
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Offensive and Pitching coordinators?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Do not retain Sabean. Requires no questions, no thoughts, the obvious route the Giants need to take. The chance that a new GM will be competent is better than sticking with someone we know to be incompetent. I honestly don’t care on way or another if Bochy comes back, though. Yes, he’s done a terrible job with the lineup, but for all Bochy’s faults, I think he has some strengths (and managing the bullpen is one). A good GM wouldn’t let Bochy’s failings (lineup construction) be an issue. A good GM tells Bochy if he sits Fred Lewis again he’s fucking fired. At that point…Bochy plays Fred Lewis and his managerial decisions help our team. So what it comes down to is we need a good GM.
Me too. I’m kind of hoping Neukom only offers them, like, a year each or something but I doubt that’ll be the case.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Does prepared mean you’ve given up hope for our future…?
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
xanthan had hope?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
Get rid of Bochy and Sabean, it's time for something new.
by ringleader3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Xanthan is a Mac. They have wierd programing errors.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I’d bring him back.
In my estimation this year represents an honest improvement over the last 3. That meeting from a year or 2 ago where he and the ownership discussed the need to refocus the scouting dept., in an effort to bolster the chances of bringing out everyday major league talent actually appears to have helped. I don’t know the farm system well enough to speak to an overall depth, but Villalona, Neal, Posey etc… it seems like firing him now would be jumping the shark.
To look at his job sans Bonds in the same light as his job with Bonds is lame to me. It appears to have been a completely different organizational philosophy.
So yeah, I hate that this team had a middling offense with some lame ass contracts that squandered a classic year of pitching, but I believe that there has been progress, and that is what should be required in this job.
gully
Is it really an honest improvement? The offense is just as bad as it was last year. The pitching is better but there are reasons to think several of the main contributors to that may be due for some regression next year. The farm system is a lot thinner than it was at the beginning of the year for reasons both in his control (Barnes, Alderson) and out of his control (Villalona).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
So in all honesty you watched this team, that won how many more games than last years team, and don’t see an improvement?
I get that statistically they have embarrassingly weak offense, but I didn’t see too opportunities to bolster this offense in the preceeding offseason, and I don’t buy into the argument that F.Lew or Bowker, or Nate would’ve helped.
gully
Of course there was an improvement but I’m not entirely sure it’s one that will necessarily extend into next year unless some major changes are made. I am pretty sure that if we went into 2010 with the same team that we have now, the Giants would not win anywhere near 86 or 87 games or wherever they are going to end up. And, given the last five years, I don’t have a lot of faith that Sabean will be able to make those changes.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I WATCH TEH GAMEZ!
This offense is like my dad dressed in drag. It looks different, but in the end its the same thing.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
and I don’t buy into the argument that F.Lew or Bowker, or Nate would’ve helped.
I don’t believe they would have done any worse than what we ran out there. Plus we don’t really know any more about them than we did in March.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
Seriously, Randy Winn had 591 PA this season at a 76 OPS+. I’m pretty sure one of those three could have done better than that.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
For a fraction of the cost, with a possibility that they might improve, and giving us better insight into how they might play at the ML level.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Cost is irrelevant
We were paying Winn no matter what. But that didn’t mean he had to start every day.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Cost isn’t irrelevant with Sabean as our GM. You know it factors into his PT decisions first of all. Second of all, if Winn performed decently, you know we’d be considering a new contract for him next season…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
To me, Winn was a bit more defensible
Since bochy has been here Winn has always hit better in the second half and Boch just wanted to keep giving him opps to turn it on. I certainly think we all thought Winn would be better and for whatever reason (maybe age) he never turned on to have a Winn like year. Winn heading into this year was probably one of our most consistent producers and still provided plus defense, so I was okay with sticking with him for the most part.
It’s not like Schierholtz was/is a clear upgrade at all. I do think he could have mixed it up a bit more, but still, the Randy Winn is not huge Bochy negative for me.
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
If Lewis was getting the PT he deserved with Winn in the other corner, that would have been one thing (because I’m not sure Schierholtz would have given us much more, either), but Lewis is the 2nd best hitter on our team. He needed to be playing. It could have come at Winn’s expense.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
What’s crazy is that they all suck. They all can’t hit a breaking ball. And in light of that their defensive liabilities in LF are too much to tolerate.
gully
well, for one thing, Nate is not anywhere close to being a defensive liability. Bowker, we haven’t seen enough of to know. And I’m not getting into the Fred argument again.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
End of argument
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
OMG
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Nate and Lewis both had about 300 PA. Bowker 60. None of them with any consist playing time.
I’m not saying they don’t suck. But I’m not willing to say they suck either. It would have been nice to find out for sure by letting them play.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
THEY HAD THEIR CHANCE
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I'VE SEEN THEM PLAY AND I KNOW THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME TO SAY THEY'RE DONE
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I don’t buy into the argument that F.Lew or Bowker, or Nate would’ve helped.
Fred Lewis would have helped. That’s a fact. He’s a much, much, much better offensive player than Randy Winn. The other two are questionable, Lewis is not.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I didn’t see too opportunities to bolster this offense in the preceeding offseason
How about ADAM MOTHER FUCKING DUNN, he of the 9th best wOBA in the NL (and 16th in all of baseball) this year?!?!?!?
How about Orlando Cabrera, Orlando Hudson, or any number of other non-Edgar Renteria SS options?
I’m not even going to bring up Mark Teixeira since it was always a pipe dream, but yeah, he’s pretty good too.
Thing C
I think we could hide him in right field.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
…or maybe shortstop, or center field.
Or pitcher.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Nowhere to hide in RF at AT&T
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Chasm!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I still have to think that’s a guy who should be passable at 1B, yet every SSS he gets he muffs up.
Not saying I want him, DH is clearly where he belongs, but that’s probably where I’d try and I wouldn’t say it’s impossible to merely be 5 runs below average vs the 19/150 he’s been thus far
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
He also, last offseason, indicated his total lack of interest in playing 1B, and IIRC, in Pacific Belle. So I don’t really think Adam Dunn was an option.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
is that so?
I remember when the Nats came here Dunn said they never approached him and that he would have gladly played here.
Not saying I wanted that though
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe IDRC, then. Or maybe Dunn was just being nice. I thought for some reason that he hated hitting here.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
If he has a total lack of interest in playing 1B, nobody told the nats, because he’s played almost half his games (63/147) of his games there.
Also, I don’t give a god damn shit about his UZR (provided he plays first base). Seriously. The man is like 34 runs above average as a hitter, there’s no way he’s going to give back half those runs in the field.
Thing C
I definitely remember there being reports that he didn’t want to play first base – and then the Nationals signed him and immediately said he’d play first base.
At the beginning of the offseason, Dunn said something about looking for a nine-figure contract. Clearly, that also didn’t happen.
As I recall, Sabean said he never even considered or contacted Dunn.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
And that’s the biggest shame of it all. He’s so bound by his inferior baseball history and dogma that he wouldn’t even CONSIDER if Adam Dunn would be a good fit for the team.
Considering our decided lack of pop from the corner outfield positions and first base, you’d think he would be one of the first people to call. The fact that he signed for what I consider to be a criminally low sum ($10m per year for 2 years) makes it all the more egregious.
Ugh. The more I think about this the more I want to mail a turd sandwich to Mr. Sabean.
Thing C
I will say, Dunn is a funny player. People that really really really don’t understand baseball might see HR’s and say, wow, he’s amazing! They’d be wrong judging him solely by HR’s. People who understand the value of walks/power combination, who do have a general idea of what matters on offense might see his numbers and go wow! OBP + Power! Amazing! Again, they’d be wrong. People that understand the value of defense + offense might see his UZR numbers and go wow! He’s amazingly bad at defense and not worth much! Chances are he’s not nearly as bad defensively as his UZR suggests (though it’s probably accurate that he’s one of, if not the, worst fielder in the league). Overall, if he’s playing a position, Dunn is probably above average, but not by that much. Interestingly enough, he’s one of the few (maybe even the only) player in MLB that would have significantly more value at DH than anywhere else on the diamond, even 1B. At DH he’s a very, very good player (which makes it weird that no AL team signed him)…
Overall I just think it’s funny that as our baseball knowledge has progressed, we continue to not know exactly how to value Adam Dunn and get it wrong, but for different reasons. Dude is such a unique player by being a true 3 outcome guy that’s overall a really, really good hitter, but also the worst fielder in baseball (and terrible even at 1B, the easiest position to play competently)…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I was probably a bit hasty earlier with some of my posts. I do find it hard to believe that Dunn’s defense is so bad that it makes him only a 2 (or less!) WAR player, but I suppose it’s possible. I guess I haven’t had enough exposure to UZR yet to fully trust it.
Thing C
Well, to be fair for essentially the same amount of money we signed Renteria we could have had Dunn, and even if it’s hard to figure out exactly how good Dunn is, we do at least know he’s much better than Renteria…
(And we’d still have Barnes in our farm system since we wouldn’t have had to trade for Garko)
by Missing Barry on Oct 1, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions
That’s a big thing for me, that we threw money at Renteria when we could have had a power-hitting first baseman/corner outfielder.
I’m not convinced you can’t hide Dunn’s fielding mishaps here and there, by doing things such as DHing him in all ~9 road interleague games, defensive replacement, etc. It’s still pretty damaging, I would guess.
One final thought: does having a tremendous pitching staff lessen the impact of a poor fielder? I was thinking that having pitchers with high K/9 means you would expect higher strand rates, so getting some extra guys on base wouldn’t hurt as bad as it would for teams with substandard pitching staffs.
Thing C
I think you’re definitely spot on with everything you said there. Putting him at 1B, an easy position to field to begin with, that doesn’t require many skills, that is also inhabited by the worst fielders in baseball would help. DH’ing at times and defensive subs (Ishikawa!) could help, too. His offensive value is enough to offset all that.
As for the pitching, yes, it does lesson that impact. First of all the Giants have more strikeouts than any other team in baseball. More k’s means less balls in play, and therefore a smaller number of chances to mess up. Second, we’re a flyball pitching staff. We have some extreme flyball pitchers (Cain, for instance), and basically no extreme GB pitchers, so the defensive impact of infielders is smaller on our team relative to OF’ers.
by Missing Barry on Oct 1, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Orlando Cabrera is just as bad as Renteria…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabean would have still managed to give him $18.5M…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that Sabean massively misplayed the whole situation. There were options available other than the crappy one he chose to play SS.
Thing C
Agreed, I just see it as a mark against Sabean that I’m pretty sure no matter what option he pursued, we would have ended up paying significantly more than what that player actually got…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
For the record, Orlando Cabrera was also godawful with the bat this season.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Why is it lame to compare bonds and non bonds eras? His job was the same in both eras, he just had on position he couldn’t fill (LF) while bonds was here
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t get this assumption. I mean wasn’t there a serious discussion last year of letting him go, because he needed to refocus on building up the farm? Doesn’t that indicate that they were to that point not focusing as much on the farm? And the rise of Tidrow into all of our discussions mirrors this point in time.
I mean the big contract to that 15 year old, the Angel signing, that wasn’t happening during the Bonds years.
gully
Yeah, and that was a massive failure on his part.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Right, because he was doing his job as it was laid out for him, much like Ned in LA is doing today… Win now, tons of thump, screw the future.
Look I don’t want to pretend like he has been some savant thus far. But I believe he did a better job this past year, and he appears to have a plan. Give him the opportunity to realize this plan.
If he had been the only force in the management then why wasn’t he fired in 2005? If he was just this big, monster who without the ownerships consent drove this organization into the doldrums, then why have they retained him? It would seem that if just the Zito thing was his fault, that he’d have been fired.
So I believe that it has been an system wide failure, from ownership down. And the distinct change in direction, and improvement in scouting, and pitching leads me to believe he is capable of bringing forth a winner.
gully
What’s his plan, though? What about this year changed, other than the fact that we lucked out on Sandoval? We signed Randy Johnson (old veteran), Renteria (old shitty veteran), traded pieces of our farm for shitty veterans, sat young guys and didn’t let them develop or sink-or-swim to find out if they’re for real so that old, crappy veterans could play. I’m not seeing any of this. It’s not like Sabean hasn’t been given a fair shot, he’s been around since ‘97. He’s proved pretty conclusively he isn’t a good GM.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
What plan? He has a good pitching staff, yes, but the offense is nowhere near average and the minor league solutions are either still a ways away or he seems unwilling to give them a shot (Bowker, the stuff he’s said about Posey the last few days, etc.) There are very few attractive options on the FA market this year (especially given the amount of money we’re already paying Zito and Rowand and how much we’re going to have to pay Cain and Lincecum soon) and our trade options are limited because one prospect got himself charged with murder and Sabean traded two of our other best chips away for marginal upgrades.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Wasn’t there a renewed commitment to the farm? Didn’t ownership come out and say this when Sabean was retained a year or two ago? Then flood the farm with money, and didn’t we see the winningest farm system in the bigs this year, for the first time in recent memory?
It has been like 3 drafts/ 2 drafts since this big declaration? What is he to have done in this time?
gully
The same thing he should had been doing all along.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Check me below
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Nice!
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 30, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, for one thing, he could have not traded two of our best prospects for Ryan Garko and Freddy Sanchez.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Even though Sanchez was hurt and he had so little faith in Garko that a slump got him promptly exiled to Siberia.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Which begs the question, why the hell did we trade a prospect for him to begin with if we didn’t think he was good?
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Kicking the due diligence tires?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I just don’t get this. Did you hawk these two trades so savagely when they happened? I mean the playoffs were still a possibility, and he made 2 moves, I mean they could both end up as horrible as the Nathan thing has, but really it’s a little too soon for all this.
I get that you don’t like it. But what gives you the impression that this story has ended, that you know those two trades have balanced out as losses?
gully
I don’t know how MCC responded to Garko, because I was off at the Night at the Park, but the Sanchez trade caused a HUGE freakout here.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
and we thought he was somewhat healthy at the time
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
I was pretty meh on both, but less so on Sanchez. Until I found out he was hurt at the time, yet still cleared by the Giants’ medical staff
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
The Garko trade, summarized
BVCE: “I’m gonna kill myself”
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
And then she did!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
/dodges
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Marcello and NeifiChicken did a pretty good job of ripping that trade apart.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
But only oldjacket ripped the trade before it even happened*.
*okay, so not really.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Aw, it's back when Villalona wasn't in jail
I miss those days.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
Yeah, remember that? That was awesome.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
I was ok with Garko because I thought he would get lots of PT but didn’t like the Sanchez deal from the start (mostly because of Alderson AND paying Sanchez’s contract).
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
I was sort of ok with Garko at first because the Giants really were struggling badly against LHP and I thought that, you know, they would actually play him. I never really liked the idea of giving up Barnes for him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It seemed like a lot to give up but I was very hopeful for Garko. Too bad we don’t really know what we got because he didn’t play.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
Yeah, if Garko was hitting more like his career numbers (105-110 OPS+ or something), I would still be meh about the trade but I wouldn’t be outraged.
The fact that his slump since the trade has buried him is not a point in Sabean’s or Bochy’s favor.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I was also ok with Garko at first, thinking one pitcher for an upgrade to our offense (which Garko provides) is fine. I hated the Sanchez trade, and then I hated the Garko trade because we could’ve put a package together to get one good player instead of two mediocre ones. Then I hated the Garko trade more since we traded Barnes for Garko just to sit Garko on the bench.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I think most people on here were aware of Scott Barnes’s existence.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
God dammit, I read that as “at the park,” not MCC. People at the park for the most part are the ones who engage in Bengie worship, so unsurprisingly, they had no idea who Barnes was.
Ah yeah, jcb was saying that most of MCC was actually at the park that night because it was the meetup game, lol.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Yeah, you should come next year!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
No longer in the Bay Area. Out in Illinois for grad school. :-(
But if there’s a get together on the rare occurrence that I’ll be in town, I’m definitely down!
Where in Illinois?
I got my MA at UIC.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
UIUC, so really the middle of nowhere. As far as I can tell, there aren’t even minor league teams out around here, although there’s some indy-ball here.
I’ll probably make the trek up to the Cell to catch the A’s or Wrigley to catch the Giants at some point.
Also, I’m able to listen to some of Chicago’s sports talk radio. Their callers are truly stupid human beings. They make KNBR callers look like Einstein, et al.
Try hanging out in Wrigleyville after a Cubs game sometime. Oy.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Having experienced both, I would say Wrigleyville post game is equal in douchebaggery to a DK pit, but lags far behind in the “Overt White Supremacist” demographic.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
What about the brand of beer?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Heh, too far for my standards. 3 hours driving total to see a minor league game? I think I’ll pass but thanks for the info.
What’s your major?
That’s too bad. :(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Yeah, but on the bright side, I’m glad that I found MCC! The sfgate’s commenters are nicht so gut, so following the Giants was not really something I got much into until this year.
Yeahhhhh the awfulness of SFgate commenters are a bit of a running joke around here. I’m not sure I’d still be quite as passionate a Giants fan right now without MCC.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
+1
Massively this.
Thank you McCoven!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I just don’t get this. Did you hawk these two trades so savagely when they happened?
Yes.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
I was pretty meh on the Garko trade – the fact that he has since been buried on the depth chart and doesn’t appear to be a part of the Giants longterm plans has taken that meh to outrage.
I was extremely pissed off about the Sanchez trade at the time and I still am.
I have said a million times that I’m not necessarily against the idea of acquiring players like Garko and Sanchez. Both could be great complementary players on a winning team. But the Giants are full of guys like that. The Giants don’t need anymore complementary players. And they used up two of their best trading chips to get two of them. Now, with several intriguing possibilities on the trade market this offseason, the Giants will possibly be forced to severely hamper their pitching depth even further if they want to make a play for anyone. It’s not good management of resources.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I was on vacation
but my response to both trades was “well, it’s a good move if they make the playoffs”.
In other words, they were gambles – and I think by the last week or two we can safely say that they are gambles that failed.
Would I make those gambles again? Well, the Garko thing is just inexplicable – why would you trade for a guy your manager won’t play? And Sanchez… well, I guess if I make the trade again, there’s a chance he won’t get reinjured?
Tough call. The Giants were lucky to be that close in August… but you have to reward success, and make a run at it, don’t you?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
I still think we can be players in the trade market. A combination of a RP (Wilson, Affeldt, Romo, ect.) plus a couple decent prospects like Kieshnick and Noonan might fetch a pretty decent bat especially to a team that’s shedding money.
If the Rays really wanted to shed money I could see them giving up Crawford or Pena for Wilson, Kieshnick and Noonan.
I don’t want to trade him, but I would imagine many GMs are going to ask about Runzler this offseason.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 30, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I quite like the idea of seeing what the Rays want for Carlos Pena, especially if they’re really so interested in shedding salary.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I know … I stole the idea from you.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 30, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
GROUPTHINK
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
GROUPHUG
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
problem with any player trades
The Giants don’t have many tradeable assets. The only tradeable asset we have that isn’t slated to help the 09 team is probably Thomas Neal.
Our only trade chance are guys that would be more straight salary dumps like the two Cubs OF’s. Tampa might want to shed Pena’s salary, but to get a lot in return to do so.
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
in general
trading does not make the current team better, unless it sacrifices future performance.
You either trade youth for experience (or vice versa), or you steal something from someone dumb, or you provide salary relief (which is essentially the same as the free agent market).
So any trade proposal which improves the 2010 Giants while NOT sacrificing the 2011+ Giants
must either:
1) involve a stupid GM on the other side
2) take on salary in excess of the talent aquired.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Or get lucky. Or have secret brilliant insight.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
but
you could obviously get just as lucky NOT trading.
and secret brilliant insight is a sub case of (1). It’s not that they are stupid, it’s that you are smarter.
Although I am pretty sure your comment was sarcastic.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Yeah, I’m referencing an argument I got into earlier in this thread.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I thought you were touting your secret brilliant insights…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Clearly
you give them Bocock for Pena. He was on a 40-man roster for a full season! He must be good, right? Sabean is a secret GENIUS
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
I like idea #2. We can take on salary.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
But got good-to-decent prospects and Sean Rodriguez in return
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I know very little. He was just ranked as the number 8 prospect in the NWL by BA. I was surprised he’s held in that high of regard by scouts and managers.
If I remember correctly he played a few games in CF for SJ in the playoffs with Darren Ford DHing. Unless Ford was hurt I think that’s a vote of confidence for Peguero’s D. I haven’t heard anything concrete though.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 30, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
He had a plan
That he promptly flushed down the toilet by trading Alderson and Barnes and calling up Bumgarner (and perhaps Posey) too early.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Yes. I was willing to give him a chance because he seemed to have a plan. When he gave up on the plan I gave up on him.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Posey was called up too early or he would have been playing this whole time… you don’t bring up highly touted prospects whose only deficiency is lack of experience so they can sit on their ass.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
But if we make sure Posey is a Super-Two it might make him happy and keep him around! Paying players more than we need to is a great strategy!
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Bonds was here when we signed Angel.
But he should have been building the farm the whole time. Having one superstar doesn’t mean you don’t build your far
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I was about to type pretty much the same thing but felt like it would be pointless.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
if you want Michael Tucker it does…
btw, I think Michael Tucker is the most unjustly villifeid player in Giants history
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t mind Tucker himself but I do mind the circumstances under which Sabean signed him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
yeah, that’s the real issue. I just think a lot of fans (not necessarily on McC) villify Tucker because of Sabean’s actions. In 04 he gave us a .353 OBP and average defense in RF for like 2 million. Pretty solid
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
The fact that he completely failed to develop the farm system for the first 8 or so years of his tenure really isn’t an argument in his favor.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
PEDRO FELIZ!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
so
in that sense, he developed EVERYBODY
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
My issue is that, yes, the minor league system has improved. The team has been signing more talented players. However, look at to those young players who joined the team this year. Those without any track record of minor league sucess (Velez, Rohlinger, Whiteside) were given more playing time and opportunities than those who have demonstrated they are much more capable in the minors (Nate, Bowker, Fransden, Posey-once he arrived) and majors! (Lewis)
So he has shown the ability to acquire talent (drafting high in the draft also makes this easier). Meanwhile, once the players get into the system, track records and previous success are not as important as someone goes on a silly hot streak he has no chance of keeping up (Velez) or doesn’t perform in a very limited number of at-bats (Bowker, Fransden).
Acquiring and developing talent are not the same thing. He’s shown limited ability to do the first without any display of developing an offensive player, non-Panda division.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 30, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Are farm system also looks a lot worse at the end of the season than it looked at the beginning. Bumgarner is less shiny. Alderson + Barnes are gone. Angel…well, your name is just ironic, don’t need to get into that…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, the farm system has gone from being a strength to being full of question marks. Posey, Neal and Bumgarner are great but past that, it’s suddenly kind of ugly.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
And that's not to say
that there’s anything wrong with having only three really good prospects in a system. But the Giants sort of need more than three players…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
The giants need 7 one for each position that Panda is playing
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn’t playing?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, and as has been pointed out in various ways, developing the farm system only matters if it carries through to the major league club. All the minor league successes mean shit if we don’t see that success on the field in SF.
Right now, I’m not convinced that Sabean is any good at developing minor league talent, if we don’t see results with the Big Giants.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 30, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that too. Having great minor league talent doesn’t mean much if the Giants aren’t willing to let them play/adjust in the majors.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
But until they get enough major league experience, they can’t possibly be counted on to contribute every day.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
This is why you're my favorite dish.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I think history shows that you only need one player as long as that player is the best hitter ever.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
Chasm? Because I’m pretty sure I’d remember winning a World Series…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t go that far. Kieshnick is interesting, RafRod, Wheeler, Joseph, Runzler, Joaquin, Domingez, there are plenty of interesting prospects. None of them are sure bets, but there are very few minor leaguers who are. I think our system still stacks up well against others.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 30, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Kieschnick – interesting yes, but plenty of glaring flaws.
RafRod – too far away to think much about right now
Wheeler – ? Who Knows
Joseph – ? Who Knows
Runzler/Joaquin – great but both relief pitchers
Dominguez – 23 year old who just struck out like 50% of the time and had a terrible OBP in ssA? I don’t really see it
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Agreed, there are plenty of flaws, but once you get past the elite they all have some flaws. IMO, you try to acquire enough interesting prospects and hope they pan out. Of course, the orginization has a lot to do with that and I’m not confident Sabean & Co. can do it.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 30, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, the Giants have had plenty of interesting prospects in the past. The trouble is that, especially with the hitters, they seem to flame out in the transition from the minors to the majors (I wonder why that might be.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Jponry,
Thoughts on Peguero?
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 30, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually don’t know a whole lot about him. Looking at his stats, he seems interesting but the rather extreme lack of plate discipline and power, for that matter, will probably hold him back unless he can turn that around. Do you know anything about his defense in CF? Is he a legit CF? If so, he probably has a chance.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I know very little. He was just ranked as the number 8 prospect in the NWL by BA. I was surprised he’s held in that high of regard by scouts and managers.
If I remember correctly he played a few games in CF for SJ in the playoffs with Darren Ford DHing. Unless Ford was hurt I think that’s a vote of confidence for Peguero’s D. I haven’t heard anything concrete though.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 30, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it’s pretty difficult to even try to rank our farm system a year from now.
Wheeler, Joseph, Graham, Fuentes, Barrios, Belt and Walls are all yet to debut. That’s quite a bit of talent we’ll getting on the field for the first time next year.
Concepcion, Peguero, Hector Sanchez, J. Bucardo, Izturis … there are quite a few lower level guys who could really emerge next year.
Posey and Bumgarner graduating is certain to cause our farm system to drop I’m just not sure it will drop all the way to bottom ten.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 30, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Posey and Bumgarner graduating is certain to cause our farm system to drop I’m just not sure it will drop all the way to bottom ten.
And I don’t think anyone thinks we’ll really drop to the bottom ten or anything. It’s not a bad farm system. It’s just when you have a good farm system, and you don’t graduate any of your top prospects (or a lot of prospects in general), anything but moving up in the rankings means your farm system took a step backwards.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Without those two, it is...
Albeit, those are two of the 10, maybe 5 best prospects in baseball currently
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, I read it wrong the first time. I just glossed over the part about them graduating and was talking about the farm system with them…my bad.
Without them, I think there really is a chance we’re bottom 10 again. Of course we’ll have another year of data and another year for our prospects to advance to higher levels, so it’ll just depend on how they do. Based on this year I’m not too confident in our farm system, though…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Going into this season, our system was a top 5 system largely on the strength of the big 4. One of the big 4 has been awesome and is easily a top 5 (maybe even top overall) prospect. One is gone. One is in jail. One posted a sub-6 k-rate in AA. Go through BA’s top 10 list from this last year and tell me how it looks? I think it’s safe to say our farm system has taken a significant step back (even if it’s decent overall) from where we thought it was at the beginning of the year, and that’s without graduating any significant pieces.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
And I’m not even sure how great Bumgarner is anymore. I have faith that some of his velocity will come back and his k-rate will go back up as that happens…but it’s just faith. I don’t know. That question scares me. Assuming what we see with him now is what we get, he may end up as a nice bullpen piece…
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
In my estimation this year represents an honest improvement over the last 3.
It’s easy to improve when you set the benchmark as low as Sabean’s predecessor….Brian Sabean did.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
13 years
Doing a quick look at Cot’s Contracts, Sabean is the second-longest tenured General Manager in all of baseball (Towers is first). The team he has controlled is not a small market club. It has the ability to spend plenty of money on players & development. The team was lucky enough to have the greatest offensive force in the history of baseball for most of that time period. Depsite that, the team has only experienced real success for a stretch of 5 years.
The game has evolved, and although I would say he has learned a little, he is still way behind the curve. He has not been able to produce a winner unless it coincided with super-human effort by Barry Lamar Bonds. It’s time for a change. I’m ready for the devil I don’t know…
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 30, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions
The other part of the question...
Who would you replace him with? Is there an available GM out there that we are all dying to have? Is Bobby Evans ready? Unfortunately, Theo Epstein is not clonable. Who else is there? Mark Shapiro comes to mind, but that place is even worse off than we are. Name some names!
DePodesta is someone I wouldn’t mind. I’m also sure there are assistant GMs who are very bright and capable but we have no idea who they are.
I also don’t like the fact we have to get a “big name” GM or manager. It seems this has always been the thinking in SF (Alou & Bochy) but I have no idea why.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 30, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I think DePodesta has said he’s unwilling to leave Southern California because of his family.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Maybe he can telecommute!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
GM from home!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
“I earned an extra $1000 a month with my GM from home program!!”
/large house and Mercedes in the background.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
/returns the rented Benz and runs away before the owner of large house calls the police
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Pass on epstein. He has done well with a huge budget, so yeah. I would like to Kim Ng
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I think her husband would have something to say about that….
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Isn't it obvious?
Sandy Alderson. Besides everything else, he’s an old San Francisco resident.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Alderson's pretty old
but I’d be OK with him as a caretaker, hand-things-over-to-someone-who’s-actually-competent GM a la Dick Bennett for Washington State’s basketball team.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
There was a time when I thought Sabean was a great GM. I took a wait-and-see approach when he took over the job an made controversial moves like the Williams/Kent and Watson/Snow trades, and they turned out nicely. He made some moves I didn’t like – trading Steve Reed and Jacob Cruz, say, or trading Bill Mueller, and his drafting in those days was bad, but mostly the team’s successes made these things easy to overlook. And then he’d go and do things like getting Jason Schmidt for Ryan Vogelsong and Armando Rios. I thought he was one of the best GMs in the game.
The romance started to fade around 2003. I liked the moves he made, for the most part – I like the Durham and Alfonzo signings, getting a comp pick for Kent, and I was a big fan of hiring Alou at the time because he had a reputation from Montreal as being great with developing young players. But a lot of that didn’t work out, and the Ortiz trade was terrible. Also, some of his stupidity started to become glaringly obvious – like thinking Tsuyoshi Shinjo was a leadoff hitter.
The thing that really killed him for me was the Vladimir Guerrero/Lunatic Fringe debacle. I could no longer overlook his failings – any GM who thinks that Brett Tomko, Dustan Mohr, Michael Tucker, etc., were better than Guerrero clearly doesn’t have a clue.
Since then, it seems like everything has gone wrong. The AJ trade, the Hillenbrand trade, etc. Of course, this isn’t really true – not everything has gone wrong. He acquired Randy Winn, for example, which worked out quite nicely. But in the post-Bonds era, Sabean’s habit of plugging every lineup hole with a crappy veteran has really stuck out like a sore thumb and overwhelmed whatever good has come from Sabean. Crappy veterans weren’t such a problem when we had Bonds and Kent in the lineup, but at this point it’s a disaster and Sabean has shown no sign he’s willing or able to move beyond that. Oh, we’ve drafted and developed some hitters like Buster Posey and Pablo Sandoval, but Sabean seems perfectly happy with Bruce Bochy’s assessment that Posey is worse than Molina AND ELI WHITESIDE, and tha’s….well. There are no words.
In conclusion: SABIEN GOTTA GO.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
And Sabean admitted that his crappy veteran strategy didn’t work. So what did he do this year? Gave Randy Winn the 2nd most PA’s, traded top prospects for Sanchez (crappy veteran), batted Molina 4th, sat Lewis (2nd best hitter on our team) and Schierholtz (so we don’t know if he’s a real player or not), continues to play Rowand, signed Renteria….
Nothing changed. Sabean’s making the same mistakes.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I DO NOT ANSWER TO MY MINIONS!!!
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Butters!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
inb4ogc
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Also
When the Giants were a good team under Sabean’s leadership, there were four main contributors throughout:
1) Barry Bonds
2) Jeff Kent
3) Robb Nen
4) Jason Schmidt
Sabean gets credit for pulling Nen and Schmidt out of fire sales. But he had nothing to do with bringing Barry to San Francisco and Jeff Kent was dumb luck. Julian Tavarez was supposed to be the centerpiece of the Matt Williams trade.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
lol, dumb luck? He just gave up the team’s fan favorite without thinking Kent would be good?
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Were you following the Giants when that trade was made? 99% of the hype was about Julian Tavarez being a future dominant closer. Kent was little more than an afterthought. Unless Sabean was just playing all of us in his defense of the trade.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Well, defending the Kent part wouldn’t have been good PR, would it?
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
I fail to understand this.
Seriously, though: I kind of liked Kent at the time, but I don’t remember anyone arguing that he was anything but a nice throw-in.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I just find it hilarious that anything Sabean does well is dumb luck whereas everything he does wrong means he’s an idiot.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Reading comprehension 101
In the comment you’re replying to, I said he deserves credit for Jason Schmidt and Robb Nen.
You can add Ellis Burks to that list, too. I’ve always said that was one of the best trades made in recent memory.
But pretending Sabean somehow secretly knew Jeff Kent was going to turn into a future HOFer is silly.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Well that’s going to the other extreme. I think it’s quite possible Sabean knew Kent was going to be a good hitter, but you can’t defend trading the fan favorite for an unknown middle infielder.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Considering the entirety of Giants fandom freaked out at that trade like the McCoven would freak out at trading Buster Posey for Khalil Greene, defending any part of it was pretty much an impossible task for Sabean. He still tried, and his defense rested on the awesomeness of Julian Tavarez and “I am not an idiot.” If he really thought Kent was a superstar, I don’t see why he wouldn’t have repeated that ad nauseum, too.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Because the majority of fans wouldn’t buy that a no-namer was worth it. This is simple PR.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
So basically, your argument is that Brian Sabean had incredible insight into Jeff Kent, but declined to say anything about it because shouting “I am not an idiot!” is better PR than, “Aside from Julian Tavarez’s tremendous upside as our closer, Jeff Kent is an underrated player who provides great power potential while playing at a position of organizational need.”
I don’t find that particularly credible.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
You’re saying he got lucky because of what he did or did not say, so I’m saying it’s just as lucky that he was on top of this based on what he didn’t say. Same thing.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
I’m saying he got lucky because, as far as I can tell, nobody in the world thought Kent was the player he became at the time of the trade.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Okie dokie…
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Another cogent two-word argument from cheno. Well done.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Another “I know what was going on in Sabean’s brain” argument from jcb!
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Reading comprehension 102
Were you following the Giants when that trade was made? 99% of the hype was about Julian Tavarez being a future dominant closer. Kent was little more than an afterthought. Unless Sabean was just playing all of us in his defense of the trade.
I suppose you could read that into “Kent was little more than an afterthought,” although in the context of the previous sentence it’s pretty clearly referring to “the hype.” And then, in the next sentence, I refer to the possibility of something more happening than we knew about. HOW DARE I.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
But then you said nobody in the world knew how good Kent was, even though the rest of the world besides the Giants didn’t seem to be actively scouting Kent.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
“as far as I can tell.”
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
So in other words, neither of us know anything, so automatically labeling the trade as “dumb luck” is silly.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
It’s hyperbole, certainly. But it’s very hard to believe that the Giants realized the caliber of player they were getting. Like it’s hard to believe the Red Sox knew what they were getting with David Ortiz, for example, or that the Dodgers secretly knew Mike Piazza was a star in the making when they drafted him in the 62nd round.
Find me one example of someone arguing that Jeff Kent was a future superstar at the time and I’ll be happy to see it, though.
And for the record, I was one of the few people who kinda-sorta defended the trade at the time. In part because it meant not trading Barry (earlier in the offseason there he demanded a trade and among the rumored offers for him were Garret Anderson and a package built around Alex Ochoa), but also in part because I thought Kent was underrated.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
And also in part because I liked Julian Tavarez. LOL me.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
No, but as the perceived centerpiece in a deal for Matt Williams…
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Yeah. Sorta how we probably wouldn’t hate Pierzynski much if we had signed him off the scrap heap to a cheap deal.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
That's amazing.
Julian Tavarez was one of the least-likable players in recent memory. Occasionally funny, though.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Least likable Giants
Juluan Tavarez
Jeff Juden
AJ Pierzynski
Chris Brown
Bonds and Kent get a pass here for being really good.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Bonds had plenty of likable moments.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Personally, I always found him likable, surliness and all. But that’s not exactly universal opinion.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Not surprisingly . . .
There was a huge disconnect between his attitudes and relations with other players and with the press; but it’s the press who gives the public its attitudes. It’s quite amazing how no camera pan of the dugout ever caught the “surly” Bonds with anything but a smile. He and the press pissed each other off, and that was that.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
This.
Sanchez remains the only Giants I have ever booed. He was released 2 hrs later. Not that my booing had anything to do with it.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Don’t sell yourself short.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
My most likeable was Grissom. I liked that dude
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
But nobody really cared enough about ent to really evaluate him. I would hipe a new GM would evaluate the talent he would be getting back for a fan favorite pretty thoroughly, thus he probably knew more about Kent’s potential than anyone else.
Or maybe he just knew about steroids.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
By the way, the text runs off the screen when posting messages. Hence the typos.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
I don’t get why they haven’t fixed that yet.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Hmm, this doesn’t happen to me as far as I can tell.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
It doesn’t actually happen to me in Safari but it did in Firefox.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I just switched from wide to narrow view and it doesn’t run off
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
That was like the third time in four years Kent had been traded – once as part of a trade for David Cone and once as part of a trade for Carlos Baerga. So he clearly was seen around the league as having some value, but by the same token, it’s not like Sabean was the only person who had presumably scrutinized him.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Since everyone is arguing about Sabean’s spin of this at the time, here’s the link.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
we were unable to get star quality players
lol
Sabean insisted that the overall lineup promises to be stronger next year than it was in 1996. ``I know if we had stayed on the same path we would have Rich Aurilia playing shortstop
lol
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Sabes's famous "I am not an idiot" declaration.
True. He is an imbecile. On the IQ ladder imbeciles are smarter than idiots — but dumber than morons.
LOL
“I’ve received a lot of voice- mail messages telling me to stick my head where it isn’t supposed to go”
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
Rich Aurilia:
With the Giants longer than most fans have had email access.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL anyone who would call a GM and leave a message about a trade
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
“Believe it or not, Sabes is not at home, please leave a message at the bee-ee-eeeeep!”
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Yeah, why would paying customers want to weigh in on the product they’re receiving? Fuckin’ idiots.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Well calling a GM to tell him he sucks has less impact than not going to games
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Feels better, though.
Not showing up could be for any number of reasons.
Don’t you think enough McCoven voicemails in Duke Nukem’s machine might sway him a little in the next few weeks?
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
PHONE CAMPAIGN/HARASSMENT STARTS NOW!! GET BRAZZZ #!
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
ha ha
That might mollify the critics. ``I didn’t know we had this many fans,‘’ Sabean said. ``You sure don’t see ‘em at the ballpark.’’
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah yes, the days when we had a terrible team AND a terrible ballpark, and 20,000 was a solid crowd.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I wonder if the mega freakout over that trade is the reason why Sabean still often seems to get so hyper-sensitive about criticism.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
There was also a freakout over the Snow trade, although I think that was mostly among online lunatic fringe types. But alt.sports.baseball.sf-giants was pissed, anyway.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Man did the internet even exist then?
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Somewhere on the web, you can find the 15 year old version of me posting on Usenet about how the Giants had just signed Shawon Dunston as our new starting shortstop for 1996.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
LOL!
The addition of Dunston brings a few problems to SF. It is well documented that
On Base Pct. is a problem area for Dunston. With Manwaring, Thompson, Carreon,
and Williams also having traditionally low On Base Pct.’s, the SF offense might
yet again be hurting for baserunners.
This problem was a major concern in 1995, and it was often noted here in the
local papers that Bonds came to bat much to often in the 1st inning with 2 out
and no one on base. Some of the departed players (Clayton, Lewis, D. Sanders)
were criticised for their inability to get on base. I find it odd that a team that
seems to be focused on getting people on base would sign Shawon Dunston.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Whoo! That’s some ugly formatting right there! Thanks, SBN!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Sadly, no. I liked signing him at the time.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
check out the link the guy above is responding to this
Reports are that Shawon Dunston has signed with the Giants for 1.5
million for 1 year.
If so, then I think Quinn pulled off a decent deal with the Cards, getting DeLucia (if in the Giants pen last year he would have been a star and maybe could have saved a couple of those 11-5 leads in the 8th), and Allen Watson who I hope will be an above average 4-5th starter. All the Giants lost was Clayton, who Dunston should repalce nicely and Dunston is a bargain for 1.5 million.
I think Jocketty got taken given that he has arguably the most popular player in Cardinals history already returning (reportedly) at shortstop. The upside for the Cards is Clayton’s youth and expected improvements.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
err I mean...
LEE45 View profile
Dunston is a good fit in SF. He can play SS, thus allowing Rich Aurelia a little breathing space as he grows into the job; he can play 3B, which could come in handy if Matt Williams is traded as rumored; and he can play OF. Anyway, this confirms my speculation a couple of weeks ago about Dave Magadan’s value.
More options Jan 8 1996, 4:00 am
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
From: le…@aol.com (LEE45)
Date: 1996/01/08
Subject: Re: Dunston to Giants??
Dunston is a good fit in SF. He can play SS, thus allowing Rich Aurelia a little breathing space as he grows into the job; he can play 3B, which could come in handy if Matt Williams is traded as rumored; and he can play OF.
Anyway, this confirms my speculation a couple of weeks ago about Dave Magadan’s value.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay, I found a stupid post I made defending the Dunston signing
What the hell is wrong with Dunston? Last year he had a better BA,
power numbers, RBIs, and less errors than Clayton – basically he was
better than him in every way, except speed. Dunston should be a good
addition to this team – along with Javier he should give them good
hitters outside of Bonds and Williams (well, and Carreon and Hill, if
they repeat their 95 seasons). granted, Dunston has injury problems,
but he was only signed for one year. Besides, according to my free
agent list, the only other SS is Spike Owen, and signing an SS allows
Aurilia to be eased into the 2B job (plus we won’t be forced to start
Scarscone, who obviously is more valuable as a bench player) when (not
if) Thompson is injured.
Dunston may not be mister gold glove or mister MVP, but hey, like I
said, just compare his 95 stats to Clayton’s.
At least I managed to properly rip someone apart for criticizing Bonds as having a “a sub-par year”:
A sub-par year!?!??! What the hell is that? Bonds is hitting .309, his
Slugging Percentage is .617, his OBA is .451. He has 39 HRs and 115
RBIs, 127 walks vrs. 74 Strike Outs. He has 26 doubles, and 27 SBs
(only 3 CSs), and he has 147 hits and 110 runs. And he’s playing gold
gold glove-type left field. And this is with virtually NO protection
in the line-up most of the time. How the hell is that a sub-par year, please?
>does he have to criticise Tony LaRussa whose team is in
>the first place? For Christ’s sake, SF is in the last
>place and has a shot at losing 100 games. Once a jerk,
Acctuially, the Giants would have to go about 1-16 for the rest of the
year to lose 100. Even they can’t do that.
>always a jerk. Get him out of SF.
And so next year, we can lose 150 games and draw about 5 people a
game. Greeeeeeeeeat.
The only way I’d support the Giants trading Bonds is if they get a LOT
for him – like if they could fill3 holes (pitching, 1B, etc) with
players acquired for him, and if the Giants spend his contract $$ on
quality free agents. And even then I’m iffy.
If you’re going to bash Bonds, at least have your facts straight,
buddy.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
the more things change....
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Just to defend Carreon
In two of his three full seasons with the Giants, he had OBPs of .373 and .343. The third year it was .324, which isn’t great but isn’t awful either.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
The updated version
The addition of Uribe brings a few problems to SF. It is well documented that On Base Pct. is a problem area for Uribe. With Molina, Renteria, and Rowand also having traditionally low On Base Pct.’s, the SF offense might yet again be hurting for baserunners.
This problem was a major concern in 2008, and it was often noted here in the local papers that Molina came to bat much too oftenin the 1st inning with 2 out and no one on base. […] I find it odd that a team that seems to be focused on getting people on base would sign Shawon Dunston in any sort of coaching capacity whatsoever.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
in 1996, thanksgiving weekend
I emailed Brian Sabean BEGGING him not to get JT Snow.
I couldn’t find any reference to this in the asbb-sfgiants. I did find a reference of Giants fans talking about hte war of 1812. So there’s that.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
lol young jcb9
Also, there’s no way Brian Sabean had email in 1996.
I’m not sure he has it now.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
he doesn’t have one, unless he just got one
by NeifiChicken on Sep 30, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
it was through the Giants organization
I guess website… yeah, they had a website in 1996.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Yeah, I remember getting a couple of free tickets and a Giants mousepad in exchange for filling out a fan survey on their website.
That, and I got a question answered in an online Q&A Bob Quinn did. It was about Dante Powell. Whee.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
He has it, but an assistant does all the tiresome logging on, reading and writing.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabean has been pretty antagonistic with the fans from the beginning. That was his first big move and he got creamed for it, which is probably why he is so sensitive about these things.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
they’d probably pay attention more to season ticket holders than other fans, but the impact is still likely to be minimal if anything.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Kent
was not a no-namer. He was a Met! He hit 20+ HRs in 1993 and 1995! He was thought to be a solid-bat no-glove 2B.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
his defense wasn’t entirely based on Tavarez, who he thought was gonna be like Mariano Rivera (the 1996 version). He stated at the time that Vizcaino and Kent solidified the Giants middle infield situation so we wouldn’t have Aurilia at SS and Mueller at 2b. (He was also trying to land Bobby Bonilla at the time, but instead ended up trading for Snow.)
But that isn’t to say that Sabean knew that Kent would thrive here or become a HOFer, so in that sense he was “lucky”. However, I doubt most GMs feel that way about anyone not a top draft pick, so they’re all ’lucky" to the extent that some guys go on to HOF careers.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think that everything Sabean’s ever done well has been dumb luck. But the Kent trade, well… he was a pretty solid player up to that point in his career, especially for a second baseman. But there wasn’t much to suggest that he would suddenly leap from a 105-110 OPS+ player to a 130-160 OPS+ player.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Remember when Jose Vizcaino played 1B for us a few years ago?
We still haven’t found a suitable first baseman since then!
:’)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I was pretty excited about him, because in 1995 he lead the minors in wins. heh.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I like this subthread: dumb stuff we thought when we were younger.
I wanted Sabean to trade for Randy Winn in 2002, solely because he was an all-star, and because I figured we’d get him for nothing because"hey, no one watches the DRays!"
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
I thought Eugenio Velez was going to be a stud 3rd baseman in 2008
:-(
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
and he had the shortest name in MLB history
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Really? He and William Van Landingham should get their own odd couple reality tv show!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
And David Aardsma could be the wacky next-door neighbor!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
This guy begs to differ.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
I stand corrected.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
what WAS brilliant
about the Williams trade was that he sold high on Matt Williams. In that section of talent evaluation, he was dead on.
Just look at Kent’s career before he came to SF and tell me why anyone thought he would become a future HOF 2B (or near enough to it).
Back in 1993 JOSE VIZCAINO was considered a bigger chip then Kent!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
yes
and it was 1996 not 93, to correct myself.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Also, meet our new LF.
SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports that the White Sox are unlikely to pick up Jermaine Dye’s $12 million option for 2010.
It’s not enormously surprising considering the 35-year-old’s struggles in the second half — just four of Dye’s 27 homers have come since Aug. 1. It looks like he’ll be a free agent this offseason.
Well
A certain portion of the Giants fandom will be pleased by that.
Then they will be extremely baffled when Cain/Zito/Sanchez all post much higher ERAs next season.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Oh, they're going to forget how to win over the offseason....
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Big free agent signing of the offseason?
- Jermaine Dye
- Eric Byrnes
- Bengie Molina
- Garret Anderson
- Brandon Backe (on the patented Mark Portugal He Does Well Against The Giants strategy)
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I thought they already had. Or maybe I just read that they were going to.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
He had an AB yesterday, so he’s probably still on the team.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Prove it!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
So someone will have free Byrnes next season or will they have to pay him when he’s picked up?
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
I hope Cleveland picks him up
I’m looking forward to reading the headline: “Indians Rope Byrnes”.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 30, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it’s just the minimum salary. The D-Bags will be on the hook for the rest of his deal minus the minimum. It’s the same deal as when they cut Russ Ortiz w/ millions left on his contract.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Unless the Brazz thinks he will sign somewhere else if cut loose and they really want him and trade for him
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
not even the Giants are dumb enough to help out a division foe like that.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
alas, this is true.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m still waiting for them to sign Juan Encarnacion.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
For several years, I would autodraft in fantasy baseball leagues and always ended up with Juan Encarnacion on my team.
He was never good.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
he was always going to be good though…
maybe it has something to do with the name Encarnacion
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I always figured the Giants would sign him because:
1. He was a National League OF
2. He’d been around a while
3. He always seemed to do pretty well against the Giants
Examples of similar players: Tucker, Michael; Grissom, Marquis; Alou, Moises; Santangelo, F.P.; several others I probably missed.
The thing that drives me crazy about Sabean is I’m almost positive he only watches Giants games.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Steve Finley
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
He wasn’t signed.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
No, but Sabean tried to sign him. He was Sabean’s first choice the year we got Alou.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
we also
eventually traded for his dessicated corpse
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
In exchange for Egardo Alfonzo’s even more desiccated corpse.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I prefer to combine both players and refer to the duo as “Stevegardo Alfonley”
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember when Krukow used to call him “Edweirdo Alfungo?”
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Was that before or after three Guinnesses and a Manhattan?
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably after.
It might have been Kuiper, actually. I can’t remember.
Anyway, one of their sons was playing a baseball video game and designed a bizarre custom character – made him like 6’10" and 100 pounds – and named him Edweiro Alfungo. The story was told during a game and the nickname stuck for a while.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Wait, I wrote that like that’s the ONLY thing that drives me crazy about Sabean. It’s one of many, but maybe the thing that drives me craziest.
(If I had to bet, I’d guess next year’s GM will be Bobby Evans, with Tony LaMullet as mgr)
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Edgardo Alfonzo
/yes, it applies to NL non-OF’s
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Mark Portugal wasn’t a National League outfielder and he wasn’t signed by Sabean.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
And he was never really a Giant. And you can’t convince me otherwise.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
When he wasn’t sitting on the bench for being DL’d, Alou was really good!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Exactly. The time Jermaine Dye actually made sense was when they signed Alou for Renteria$$$ and Dye signed for half the price during the same off-season. Dye isn’t exactly Roberto Clemente, but he would have been a much better deal than Felipe’s pee-hands son.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Sep 30, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I see you haven’t heard the new trade rumor.
Milton to Pads
Rowand to Cubs
Gianst pay 1/2 of miltons salary
Kyle Blank to Giants
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey, we got rid of the “My fake trade…” slogan months ago!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
You’re a terrible person
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Hope
A small part of me hopes that Bow-Tie is going to utterly surprise me by firing both Sabean and Bochy. I know it might not be a sound hope, but the flame is still going.
Come on Bow-Tie! Surprise us all!
You know what...
This conversation is utter and total bullshit. Whatever we all think, he is coming back.
You didn’t have to tell it like it is, capn.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Then all conversations here are utter and total bullshit – we don’t actually change the outcome of anything.
And yet, here we are. Huh.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 30, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I musta missed that one. What was it? (I may as well get something out of this place, I guess)
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 30, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Hairball's recipe
2 ounces 100% agave tequila
1 ounce agave nectar
1 1/2 ounces lime juice
1 1/2 ounces soda water
Shake and pour over ice
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
IAWTR
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
Get rid of Bochy and Sabean, it's time for something new.
by ringleader3 on Sep 30, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Hmmmm. I’ll have to think about this one.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 30, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Um, well, I wouldn’t put soda water in a margarita in any case, but you definitely should not shake the soda water with the rest of the ingredients unless you want to make a really big mess.
bartenders don't put carbonated stuff into a shaken cocktail NOT because it's dangerous, but because it loses the fizz, so why bother.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’s dangerous; there’s not enough pressure to blow up the shaker or anything. But it certainly will go all over the place when you open the thing.
Sure, but that's not why not to shake a drink with a carbo beverage in it.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
No, that's THE reason it isn't done in bartending. It's a higher order disqualification.
Think of it this way:
1. Shaking a carbo beverage is stupid and pointless because it releases all the carbonation.
2. It can also be messy.
Well, logically, THE reason not to do it is that it is stupid and pointless. Number 1 is wholly sufficient not to do it, and is generally where the inquiry ends. Number 2 isn’t reached because disqualification has already occurred.
If the order is reversed, that isn’t necessarily true— lots of messy things are still worth doing if the results warrant it. (That is, in fact, what she said.)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
NO NO NO
You don’t shake!!!
And the agave HAS to be the Tres Agaves brand (totally different taste and consistency than most others)
And the ratios:
over ice:
2 oz tequila
1 oz Tres Agaves agave syrup
1 oz. lime juice
fill the rest of the way with soda water
jhiat00, I thoroughly appreciate the shoutout, but that would NOT have been my margarita
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
That’s been a trend of late, the theory being that you shouldn’t dilute the agave flavor of the tequila with orange, so you use agave nectar to sweeten it instead of cointreau. I don’t mind the result, but in my mind without orange liqueur it isn’t really a margarita at all. It’s tasty, but it’s a tequila lemonade — er, limeade. In fact, since this version has soda water added, it’s a tequila Tom Collins, which IIRC is called a Jose Collins.
I’ll stick with tequila, lime and cointreau. Always on the rocks, never salt.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
Oh yeah, fuck blended drinks
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
Get rid of Bochy and Sabean, it's time for something new.
Best mixed drink ever:
6 oz your favorite vodka
A little bit of ice.
Mix. Drink before the ice melts.
Ta-da!
2.25 – 3.0 cups of vodka will not make you think you see. It will make you think you’ve gone blind.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
When I was young and stupid and iron-stomached...
My friends and I played Trivial Pursuit for shots. We played with the worst bottom-shelf charcoal-filtered vodka out there. Popov or some other such rotgut. The rule was a correct answer earned a shot instead of the right to roll again. I stayed seated throughout the game and dominated as I tend to at TP. On and on the game went. Still feeling sober (but getting understandably nervous), I finally cut myself off after 18-20 shots.
Then I stood up and was like, “oh, THERE’S all the vodka,” and was deliriously hammered the rest of the night. Good times. No hangover, either; remember those early days of drinking?
PROTIP:
Kids, DO NOT NOT NOT try this at home because it happened to work out well for me.
Eighteen to twenty! WTF was I thinking? Suicide?
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
We hosted a whiskey tasting night this past year. I hated whiskey, so I stuck to vodka. I’m about 135 lbs, and I ended up doing 13 shots of vodka. My girlfriend was not so happy when I puked in her white leather bag later that night.
PROTIP: Don’t puke in your girlfriend’s white leather Coach™ bag!
IMHO ridiculously expensive stuff like that is created with much bad karma and deserves whatever bad befalls it.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
My girlfriend is from San Antonio. We were down there visiting her mom and went to this random little Mexican restaurant called Ajuua in a random little strip mall. The server dropped a full margarita into mom’s new Luis Vuitton purse. I had the same thought about the karma over the overpriced bag.
The low point in the evening, though, was when I realized to my horror that this was in fact Robert Horry’s random little Mexican restaurant.
As a Kings fan, it was literally everything I could do to remain a good guest among a bunch of non-sports fans and not walk out on the spot.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear that. As a quasi Suns fan I don’t like the Spurs or Cheap Shot Rob.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
I don’t really care about the Spurs. In fact, my GF’s dad used to be their play-by-play guy.
Robert Horry the Laker, though, specifically 2002, specifically… see, now I done went and got my blood boiling again.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, I remember. Dude is a douchebag, and the NBA fucking blows for penalizing the Suns the series (essentially) for ‘leaving the bench.’
I assume you remember the 2002 WC Finals pains of which I speak, because I’m not picking at those scabs if I don’t have to.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
ah yes
Luis Vuitton. Louis’ Mexican cousin.
Whoops. LOL
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 30, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions
The Salty Dog, by Arthur the Producer ("Larry Sanders Show")
1 part vodka to 1 part salt.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
The last time we had a recipe thread, I got three recipes I’ve used multiple times and really like – lemon chicken and a pizza recipe from Baron and kuhari from jponry. We should have another one of those!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Wait a week, and we’ll all have plenty of time for one of these. I like ’em.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 30, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, everyone, go on home. There’s nothing more to do on this site.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
time to go a comment on cricket
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t agree at all. It is just that this one particular topic is stale and the decision is forgone so it feels particularly artificial and frustrating to be having the conversation. I am happy to talk about why Buster is not playing all day long.
BUSTER HAD HIS CHANCE
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Are you implying
that our discussions in gameday threads don’t affect the game?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
You know waht else is impressive? The fact that you can hit yourself in the head and and still type
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I love cherry-picking meaningless, small sample splits! Let me try this – Edgar Renteria, with bases loaded, is hitting .571/.500/.1571 this season for a 2.017 OPS!
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
MONEY
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It makes the world go ’round.
Turns out you can spell Ugnio Vlz without 4 E's
by The Gene Hackman on Sep 30, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you not see the hilarity in saying “STATZ IS FUR NURZ. NOW HEREZ SUM STATZ!”
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
shhhhh.
The fact that he doesn’t see the hilarity make it more hilarious.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
that .364 figure
what’s your sample size? ie, how many extra inning PAs we talkin’ ’bout?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
clearly a large enough sample size to make this claim with absolute certainty
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
sample size = Nerds
How many AB would you expect a starting catcher to have over the course of ONE season?
The fact is that he hit .364 in those opportunities, which is impressive for a guy who’s already been catching for 3 hours.
you're cute!
one can draw exactly zero conclusions from a sample size of 11ABs, silly!
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
And from Renteria’s bases loaded stats, we should evaluate all his performances! New predictive tool!
Edgar Renteria has sucked this year.
You missed it while you were practicing your signature with his last name.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
anime fan? check.
spends time on website full of nerds? check.
Sorry, buddy. Welcome to nerddom. Here’s your Introduction to Statistics and Probability text.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.