Railroad Job
In July, when pressed to do so by beat writers, columnists, and talking heads alike, Mr. Neukom declined to confirm that Sabean and Bochy would be brought back after the 2009 season. Refusing to take no for an answer, such sport literati as Ray Ratto, Bruce Jenkins and Scott Ostler have taken it upon themselves to use their privileged column space in San Francisco's only major newspaper to opine in favor of the dynamic duo.
In spite of such blatant lobbying, Mr. Neukom has stated repeatedly that he had committed to viewing the entire season, not just the first part before rendering a decision. And he has reiterated that position a number of times, as recently as a couple of weeks ago if I am not mistaken and he emphasized "entire." And no amount of pressure was going to make him back off his commitment to that process.
And I suppose if one wants to look at the whole season, it is an improvement over the past couple in terms of won loss records and the surprise that is Pablo Sandoval is nice too. Even though as late as the end of March, Sabean was fairly listless in his appraisal of Oso Panda while at the same time gushing forth on Ishikawa and Burris.
There are two schools of thought on this team. A team that exceeded expectations versus a team that squandered countless opportunities once it became clear in June they had a very good chance to get into the playoffs and that pre-season expectations were incorrect. Well lets look at the season pre and post all-star break, since that is about the time bandwagon started taking on media riders and the public lobbying of Neukom commenced.
At the All Star Break the Giants were 49 and 39, 10 games over .500, and 2 games in front of the Rockies in the Wild Card. At game 157 they were 5 games behind the Rockies, 2 games behind the Braves, a half game in front of the Marlins and 1 game in front of the Cubs.
The Giants decided they were "...in this." ( including the Medical staff on Freddy Sanchez) and proceeded accordingly. Sabean with the player transactions, Bochy with the pitching rotation, bullpen management and lineup construction
At the All Star Break, Tim Alderson and Scott Barnes were still in the farm system. Freddy Sanchez was injured and not playing in Pittsburgh. Ryan Garko was comfortably seated on a bench on the shores of Lake Erie wondering how a nice Stanford kid like him, ended up riding pine in the rust belt.
But by game 157 Ryan Garko has a really great seat on the 3b side of AT&T, and Sabean's crack double play combo of Freddy Sanchez, and Edgar Renteria is swapping jokes with Hawkeye and Klinger at the 4077 MASH.
Scott Barnes defeated Tim Alderson's old AA team by pitching the Indians affiliate to which he was traded to a league championship. Alderson is somewhere else not named Giants land, his services owned by an organization whose recent successes are even more underwhelming than the Giants. But presumably both Alderson and Barnes are still healthy and continue to show even more upside than either of the two folks for whom they were dealt.
The Giants, in spite of playing .500 ball in the second half of the year, are still going to finish third or worse for the 5th consecutive season. For the 5 th consecutive year, they will finish near the bottom in nearly every significant offensive category, including Runs Scored, On Base Percentage, Slugging, OPS and with five games left , will finish up play with the 6th, 7th, or 8th best record in the National League.
Now if one is to look at this team post all-star break, we get an even bleaker picture. And it was not just the lack of hitting.
Pre All Star the Giants Team ERA was ranked 1st. Post All-Star Team ERA is ranked 6th
Pre All Star the Giants were ranked 1st in Runs Allowed. Post All-Star they slipped to 5th
Pre All Star the Giants were scoring an average of 4.18 runs per game, 677 annualized.
Post All Star the Giants were scoring an average of 3.87 runs per game, 627annualized.
I'm not going to do a statistical analysis, because if you watch this team on a nightly basis as most here do, to continue in this vein would be redundant. This is not a team that is getting better. They are actually about the same as they have been the last 5 years in terms of where they finish in the standings and how many runs they can or cannot score. And why is scoring so important?
I came across this little nugget not long ago. Starting with divisional play in 1996, (1995 was shortened by the prior year's players strike) and including this year, there will have been 8 teams x 14 seasons = 112 teams to make the playoffs. Of those 112 teams, only 2 teams to score less than 700 runs have ever made the playoffs. Both in 2005. San Diego (under Bochy ironically) and Houston, and they finished with closer to 700 runs than 650. Notably this was the first year of mandatory ped testing. For those of you without the official McCoven abacus or Xanthan Commodore 64, that is less than 2 percent of play-off teams and it was a one time fluke apparently.
And the Giants for the third year in a row, will again score less than 700 runs. Thats what you get when you sign guys like Alfonso, Roberts, Winn, Rowand, Renteria, and now apparently Sanchez to long term deals. Guys who may be "All Stars" which is nice when you have to sell commercials and ads in your paper, but who are not really the kinds of guys that are going to get you into the playoffs.
You can have 5 Lincecums and 5 Cains, but you're still not going to the playoffs with the type of unbalanced, 80s college coach mentality that Sabean has brought to the Giants for the last several years.
Sabean may like to remind folks that "the Bonds era is over" as he did in his chalk talk as so diligentally noted by the esteemed BC alumnus JP and Mayor of 311, Esquire. But what Sabean neglected to mention was that it is this same Post Bonds era that has revealed his own dreadful shortcomings when it comes to team building. Bonds run production was Ruthian when Kent was here. Since both have been gone, so have the Giants run production capablity for the most part. Both gone before they wanted to leave and both gone while they were still the best hitters on the Giants not coincidentally.
The Giants had a nice June, July and August. That is one half of one season. That represents ten percent of the last 5 seasons. And the trends since the All Star Break are simply in keeping with Mr. Sabean's "entire body of work " in the 2005, 06, 07, and 08 seasons.
A pitching staff and Pablo Sandoval does not a contender maker. The average Major League career is 5.6 years. The Giants have not been to the playoffs in 6 years. An entire generation of Major Leaguers have started and ended their careers in that time. Baseball years are like dog years. Time is more precious in baseball years than real life.
For all the reasons cited above, but especially a 5th consecutive finish in the bottom of the NL West, things are not any better in the big picture of things. Clearly after 6 consecutive empty years, it is obvious that the goals and objectives of the Giants Championship dreams are beyond the grasp and capability of the current regime.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
7 recs |
104 comments
Comments
Great post E and I’m glad to have you back!
I really agree that Sabean constantly gloating about how we’ve “moved on” from the Bonds era is getting old. If “moving on” means teams with less than 700 runs scored every year, I’d like to go back, please.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Where can we get these 5 Lincecums and 5 Cains?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 30, 2009 11:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In a traditional holiday 5 pack
/hates that heiny commercial
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 30, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Breeding.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Sep 30, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALL HAIL E...
…but he ain’t back.
That’s a cameo there , folks…the man has broken the day – to – day addiction and merely dabbles on an annual basis.
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 30, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I'll bite...
then WHO should be GM and Manager for 2010?
Seriously, among those who are available, and (moreover) may be willing to step in and steer us into next Oct., WHO do you suggest? Who has a better proven track record, to step in, step up, take us there? Who is going to improve this offense without trading away the pitching staff or selling off the future? Who is realistically going to favor playing the kids over overpriced vets? Who is going to occasionally implement the use of smallball tactics and fines for first pitch swings? Who can/should/is able to run this team the way we want?
Names? Suggestions? Would these people really be far superior, or only marginally better?
I’m not defending the comedy team of Sabean/Bochy, but I’m curious as to what prescriptions are available. (Incidentally, that’s also where Karl Marx lost me).
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 11:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s difficult to say, because a lot of us aren’t necessarily privy to exactly what some of the hot GM candidates have really accomplished on their own terms. People like names like Logan White or Kim Ng or Chris Antonetti or David Forst and so on and so forth but, of course, we really don’t know how good of a job they are going to do if they’re hired.
At this point, I think we know what Sabean is capable of. And I’m ready for something new.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
It wouldn’t surprise me to discover that Nuke’em is more comfortable with the devil(s) he knows rather than the devil(s) he doesn’t. Is the current job really a task for someone who has not been proven, but has great potential?
Am I wrong in thinking that the wrong manager could actually damage the team? (i.e. what would the pitching staff look like if Alou were still manager?)
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think a manager makes much of a difference from a W/L perspective, for the most part. Most of my misgivings with Bochy has to do with the fact that I feel that this is a team that should be moving from reliance on veterans to reliance on young players. And he just doesn’t seem like the sort of manager you want to be in charge of something like that.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is a team that should be moving from reliance on veterans to reliance on young players.
I absolutely agree… But WHO does that? Does anybody come to mind?
Could it be that maybe our young guys this season were too green for any manager’s liking? We did have a few rough edges on our youth movement: FLew’s D, Burriss’s O, Ishi’s bat on the road, Velez’s entire pre-August existence, etc. With all of these projects going on simultaneously, giving other young guys some ABs may have been thought to be a luxury they couldn’t afford? (Nate in the first half, Frandsen, Bowker, Torres, Guzman, etc.).
Youth: too green, and too many? With the pitching keeping us close in the standings, how many yoots can you really throw out there?
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could it be that maybe our young guys this season were too green for any manager’s liking?
I suppose that’s possible, but it’s unlikely. And frankly, it says more about the way MLB teams are (mis)managed than anything else.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 30, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding? Plenty of teams give playing time to young players and let them work through their issues until they’re comfortable in the majors. Otherwise there wouldn’t, you know, be any new players in the league.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true… to a point.
How many teams a) flood the field with youth, while b) sitting a handful of vets?
I may be totally wrong, but usually teams that do a), don’t have the the condition of b). We had a lot of holes to fill this year and a lot of uncertainty… and still do. But because we found ourselves in contention (=butts in the seats), I can understand that it must have been too tempting to, yet again, undergo a true reconstructive year.
Again I ask, WHO would have done much differently given the situation? As much as Sabes/Boch piss me off, I think they were, at least in this respect, fairly conventional.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, this year but maybe we should have been doing a little bit more major league reconstructing from 05-07 than the Giants actually did?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And just because it’s convention doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again I ask, WHO would have done much differently given the situation?
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
me
a lot of other people here
Joel Maddon maybe
Larussa
Joe Torre
any smart, progressive manager
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 30, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So,
2 MLB managers (maybe a 3rd if you call him Joe)
delorean + many McCoven
Obviously, not a majority of MLB managers would radically depart from last year’s science project. I totally agree with what you want, but I’m saying that there’s probably not many (if any) managers who would do it.
Besides, isn’t LaRussa the only guy who might be available (excluding delorean + many McCoven, of course)?
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am available
and work cheap.
look, it’s not my fault that baseball managers as a whole tend to be stodgy and conservative. All they need to do is look at the data and they can eke out an extra win or so a year, just by how they construct their batting order. Maybe another win in how they use pinch hitters and the bullpen. Science > gut.
It’s just so frustrating to watch people make the same mistakes year after year because the mistakes are considered “conventional wisdom.”
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 30, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can understand that it must have been too tempting to, yet again,undergoFORGO a true reconstructive year.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what disappoints me the most – the lack of will to truly go through a proper rebuild.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually disagree with this
there is no such thing as a ‘proper’ rebuild. The only reason to “rebuild” is to save money – the teams that
do have a “boom and bust” cycle (the Marlins and …?) do by trading the talent they have for prospects and
saving money while they develop.
The Giants “veterans” (Molina, Winn, Rowand, Renteria) can not be traded for prospects, because they have essentially zero value.
You can spend more money in player development as opposed to Free agency… but not an infinite amount.
If you took all the wasted salary ($60M?) on the Giants you couldn’t spend it all on Latin America or Asia or
whatever. You could maybe spend $10M of it, and there are diminishing returns (all the really good players get signed anyway). What are they going to do? Open another 4 A-ball teams, and a second AA one?
They have already done the “sucky teams = high draft picks” phase of rebuilding. What difference does it make if theiry
payroll was $40M or $80M.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A true rebuild means finding out who’s in the future plans and who isn’t, which means playing guys like Schierholtz to find out if he’s in the long term plans. Choosing to play veterans that suck and definitely are not in the long term plans and passing up opportunities to evaluate what you have looks to me a lot like passing up on a “true rebuild”.
Basically the whole point of rebuilding is to find the next future core group of players, or doing whatever you can to build up the future by trading veterans for prospects. I believe you’re right that the crappy veterans we have right now aren’t tradeable assets, but I do think we’ve passed up opportunities in the past to sell on veterans for prospects – guys like Schmidt, Winn at a couple of points had to have some trade value (though not this year, obviously), Bengie last year, maybe Omar at some point?. Combine that with the fact that we actually shipped off some of our future (Barnes, Alderson), and I think it’s fair to say we haven’t done a whole lot of rebuilding.
by Missing Barry on Oct 1, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This. A proper rebuild involves playing young players. Randy Winn leading the team in PA is the antithesis of rebuilding
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 1, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
that we have not been rebuilding, I just don’t agree that there is such a thing, generally.
All of the non-moves you mention are really “making the team better now and in the near future”. They are smart moves. They are not necessarily “rebuilding” moves – you should be doing this all the time.
I don’t think we could have gotten much for those guys – except Schmidt, but I doubt we’d have done much better than the pick.
Trading Barnes and Alderson is definitely NOT rebuilding, but it’s arguable whether or not it was a bad idea to move them – we did have a reasonable chance of making the playoffs at the time. Obviously it didn’t work out – and it’s certainly questionable as to whether we got reasonable value for them… but strategically it wasn’t insane.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well one of the concepts of rebuilding is you sacrifice a little now for more later, because the marginal utility of a win in the present to the team (talking about a hypothetical team not in the playoff hunt) is less than it will be in the future when the team is competitive. We have not been good for a long time. Now is definitely not the time to start rebuilding – we have the cheap talent to compete in the next couple years, but we should have done more rebuilding the last few years. I know we wouldn’t have gotten big time prospects for those guys, but I don’t see why teams in the race wouldn’t have offered us something. Other than increasing expenditures on prospects (something we should have been doing to begin with), I haven’t seen any evidence of any rebuilding.
We’re all aware that we haven’t made the playoffs since 2003, nor have we had a reasonable chance to since 2004. We should have been sacrificing the present and near future back then to put us in a good situation now.
by Missing Barry on Oct 1, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
But I think that “rebuilding” is not required for a high-ish payroll team – EVER. They should always be willing to sacrifice small present value for future value when things aren’t going their way (luck, injuries, other teams doing well), and vice versa when the opportunity presents itself.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I agree and was going to add something there based on your first statement that we should be making smart moves all the time. The problem is, with our payroll, we should never have gotten into the situation Sabean got us into in the first place where we were completely devoid of talent at the MLB level and throughout our farm system, despite a high payroll.
From that point the quickest way to get back to contention, in my opinion, is a firesale of what you have and a rebuilding phase (that like you said, we shouldn’t have had to be doing to begin with) that entails a.) selling present gains for future gains b.) evaluating who you have now to see if they’re part of the future plans c.) not making any commitments that will hurt you when you expect to compete again (Zito would qualify here)…well those are the things I came up with off the top of my head.
by Missing Barry on Oct 1, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and you can add d.) upping your investment (meaning throwing cash around to rebuild the farm system, if you have to take this money away from the MLB payroll to do it, so be it). Top picks are also good for speeding up the rebuild, so losing can be good, though obviously it’s still a business and losing is very bad for the bottom line, so to a degree I understand still trying to at least be mediocre instead of terrible at the MLB level.
by Missing Barry on Oct 1, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading Barnes and Alderson is definitely NOT rebuilding, but it’s arguable whether or not it was a bad idea to move them – we did have a reasonable chance of making the playoffs at the time.
It wasn’t reasonable. The offense is epically bad. Historically. Even if this team made the playoffs, can you really say they had any chance of winning three series in a row? Against good teams? Winning the WS is the ultimate goal.
Those moves demonstrate a lack of intestinal fortitude on the part of the front office. In fact the failure to play young players at every opportunity demonstrates the simple lack of willingness to do what it takes to develop homegrown position players..
You’re right that they have done the "sucky teams = high draft picks" phase of rebuilding… this year (to me anyway) was the “find out what we’ve got” phase… and the FO shot their wad in their shorts because of an unecpectedly good record. Maybe the term ‘rebuilding’ was imprecise….
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 1, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Need more green IMHO.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your point about most ML managers are going to give a proven major league veteran the majority of the at bats over an unproven player. BUT when said PMLV fails repeatedly most managers would go with option B, C, D, E or F. Bochy is continually going with option A and getting the same frickin result. I don’t think there is many major league managers who would do that. Especially when they are losing ground in a playoff race. Do you really think Randy Winn would be hitting 3rd or Bengie Molina hitting 4th with the majority of other ML managers?
And I disagree that managers don’t have a big effect (affect?) on W/L record. Lineup construction likely does not. Managers giving the wrong players more at bats has a direct influence on the number of runs scored.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 30, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t help that we have a GM that ALWAYS gives all of his managers plenty of veteran options.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 30, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ has flash back to Eddie Murphy’s " Mr. Robinson’s Neighborhood" (Almost Safe for work….) SNL skits and how he would say this.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I absolutely agree… But WHO does that? Does anybody come to mind?
Just look across the Bay at what the A’s have been doing for the last 5-10 years. Tons of no-name young guys get their shot over there. Over here if they don’t hit in their first 10 AB’s they’re thrown to the bench/minors forever.
by Missing Barry on Sep 30, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd want
Either DePo or Hoyer.
Forst and Antonetti would make my list as well, but I think those guys are staying put because they are going to take the reigns of their respective teams very soon.
Wild card candidate I could see: Kevin Towers. It’s not quite the opposite direction of Sabean as other canddiates might be, but it’s certainly the next evolution. Towers is basically Sabean with charisma and a bit more of an open mind
by NeifiChicken on Oct 1, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not so sure on Towers. I wonder how much of his "open mind" is because of the limited budgets and resources in SD have given no other possible option or if he would stay open minded if he had more options. I kind of think it is the former and not that later but another season Big Head & Sabean does have me in a foul mood and that might be tainting my perception.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This should be required reading for the G’s ownership and executives.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 30, 2009 11:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said. This post captures all of my frustration with the front office over the last several years. They just don’t seem to get it. After waiting several years to turn this offense around, I am officially angry with the management of this team. Still love the team, but I am regularly disgusted by the lineup and roster decisions, as well as having to watch these guys hit.
by out machine on Sep 30, 2009 11:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This post, by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read.
(just kidding)
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 30, 2009 11:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ts;dnr
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 30, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
misleading title
I thought one of the railroads was hiring and I clicked to see who I should send my resume to
by FluLikeSymptoms on Sep 30, 2009 12:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
CSX… apparently they can haul the weight of Bengie Molina across the country for like 1/4 gallon of fuel.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Sep 30, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Where have you been?
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Sep 30, 2009 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Heyas!
Sounds like you’re still recovering nicely. I like hubby’s lids by the way. You guys have been through much together already and I wish you continued wedded bliss!
I read here almost everyday, but have stayed on the sidelines for the most part. Most of what I can offer on a short term observational basis is pretty much covered in one form or another by others.
I may be old, but I still see very little, hear even less, and learn next to nothing. At least thats what my dearest lady next to my daughter tells me.
Stay well and write more. You and and BVC are and were the two original ladies of MCC if I am not mistaken. Of course JPonry, Merope, Can of Corn and maybe some others too.
Like a baseball team, the McCoven needs balance, and the distaff side is always interesting and keeps some of us manly man-men from getting too full of ourselves.
by E Ticket on Sep 30, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m doing very well. And yes, he has the best hats!
As for writing here, there’s been a bit of a chilling effect lately, it’s just not the same supportive group of people it always has been (as you’ll see below). I guess it just comes with growth but I must be old too when I’m thinking, “Whither the civility?” Also, only old people use “whither.”
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Sep 30, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh. I noticed. One of the downsides of success is that even the finest of fine meals is going to produce some amount of fecal matter, once the nutrients have been digested. And no matter how small the aroma, or insignificant its size, it is still offensive. But eventually it dries up and blows away.
by E Ticket on Sep 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, E! We miss you around here.
(Although our aim is getting better.)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And might I add
that Jponry and Mayor of 311 inspired me to sit down and really think this thing through and add my dos centavos. Their presences and diligence and attention to detail was not swayed by their desire for “favor” nor “access” to the PTB (powers that be)
A masteful job of reporting back without the short term gratification perhaps of making a scene, but rather with an eye towards offering genuine, corroborated insight and contributing to the knowledge base in a way that so many in main stream media do not.
You have my utmost respect for that endeavor!
by E Ticket on Sep 30, 2009 12:22 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
I didn’t actually think I’d end up taking so many notes, but he really did say a lot of things that seemed pretty revealing to me, so I just couldn’t stop writing everything he said down. It was an interesting experience, for sure, albeit a somewhat sobering one.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 30, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can attest to a sheaf of hand written notes… anyway, great read, as usual E.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, Sir. It's a pleasure.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This can’t be said enough. Some of us live out of market so getting this kind of “feedback” , without train loads of spin, from an event is pure gold. Papers, by and large, don’t do it anymore and laurels from their efforts are well earned.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of spin, last night on ESPN’s “Baseball Tonight,” they were attributing the Giant’s success to Bochy’s managerial abilities. I laughed out loud.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Oct 5, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's nerd, and then there's fruity
Baseball years are like dog years. Time is more precious in baseball years than real life.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 30, 2009 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
which one are you?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 30, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a fruity nerd.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 30, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your understanding of baseball is, at best, juvenile.
Also, the internet tough guy routine went out of fashion back in the bbs days.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 30, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will defeat you in a physical confrontation, Lars!
by xanthan on Sep 30, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
please inform
with a set of dates, times and places so that we may come to mutual agreement for our fisticuffs schedule.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 1, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can I be Lars’ second? It sounds dashing.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 1, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is this not banworthy?
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 30, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if any one comment hokysmokes makes is really ban-worthy, but I am kind of concerned about the overall level of complaints about him lately. The shtick was tolerable for awhile, but it’s clearly getting pretty old, and it seems to be bothering a lot of people who are much more valuable posters to the site than he is.
So like, hokysmokes: tone it down. Seriously.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 1, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I thought the schtick was old pretty much right when he first started coming around.
The baseball Satanist
by thehavenot on Oct 3, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think everyone benefits from civil debate. Way to highlight this Jponry =)
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Oct 5, 2009 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL OLDER THAN OLD
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 30, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The classic BURNS have no age.
Stop posting when I’m posting, nerds. You mess things up when you make the screen move.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 30, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we stop feeding the troll here people?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 30, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love E
/squirms in chair. looks across the table
You make me want to be a better poster.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 30, 2009 4:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
From the boner man
There’s nothing more the Giants need to know about Bochy. He has an excellent career track record, he has the players’ attention and respect, his lineups and in-game strategy make sense, and most importantly, he knows how to handle a pitching staff.
the bolded part is perhaps the most ignorant statement I’ve ever read. Thanks Bruce Jenkins!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 30, 2009 4:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I resent when people call Bruce Jenkins a tool.
A tool, by its definition, is useful.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 30, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then let's call Jenkins a broken tool.
Anyone who can call Bochy’s in-game strategy sensible is a buffoon.
by Sabean's_Folly on Sep 30, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ golf clap
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This kind of thinking continues I’m gonna start wondering wth they are putting in the water there in S.F.
BLING BLING
by cybermaldonado on Sep 30, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
very well said
i have a feeling neukom will look at the improvement in their record as the main reason to resign the craptastic duo
by speedyt72000 on Sep 30, 2009 4:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic post
The real interest for me lies in figuring out what Neukom’s decision regarding Sabean will tell us about the man himself.
As long as it is still possible, I will continue to hold on to my fantasy that Neukom will be one of those rare and coveted owners, much like a baseball version of Eddie DeBartolo.
I can dream can’t I?
BLING BLING
by cybermaldonado on Sep 30, 2009 5:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
great post
perfectly organized a lot of our frustrations. good to have you back!
by sfoakbay on Sep 30, 2009 6:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hear an echo
Your thoughts parallel many of my own. Sabean’s horrible performance since the all-star break, coupled with Bochy’s gross mismanagement of the pitchers and starting lineup since he thought “we’re in this thing”, should open everybody’s eyes.
I hope that Nuekom has been paying close attention to it all. Not the least of which has been Sabe’s arrogant and dismissive interactions with the fans. His performance during and after the recent jponry incident should have been the last straw. I can’t believe that Nuek would want that type of a-hole running his team. Not only has he been acting like his job is safe because of the “great turnaround”, but he treats the paying customers as rubes and idiots. Please wake up Mr. Nuekom and wipe the slate clean. As long as Sabean is in charge, and Bochy is his field general, we’ll be no better than occasionally above-average – while usually being just average. That’s not acceptable with the payroll we have and the lofty goals that Nuek has so often stated.
You did get one thing wrong in your OP. You wrote:
Tim Alderson defeated his old AA team by pitching the Pirate affiliate to which he was traded to a league championship. Scott Barnes is somewhere else not named Giants land, his services owned by an organization whose mascot looks like the bastard offspring of Bozo the Clown and Chief Thunderthud, that somehow thinks that said mascot is not offensive.
That’s exactly backwards. Scott Barnes was on the Indians’ AA affiliate (Akron) that beat the Giants’ Conn. Defenders for the Eastern League title. Alderson and his Altoona team (Pirates affiliate) came in last in their division and didn’t make the playoffs – not surprising for a Pirates’ farm team. BTW, I’m not defending the Sanchez trade, but Alderson did not pitch well in his 7 games for Altoona – all his stats except W/L and BAA were much worse than what he recorded for Conn.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Sep 30, 2009 6:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I sure did go dyslexic there. Thanks for the correction. I understand that about Alderson. It was widely discussed that he had showed some regression. Totally got them reversed.
One of the advantages of attaining seniority; dementia grants one plausible deniability
by E Ticket on Sep 30, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because some in here thought Alderson regressed it doesn't mean that he was not a top prospect.
Alderson is young, and a slight regression at this point is almost meaningless. Back to the main post. I would agree with most of what you say. Clearly a lineup put together that has an average of 257 without pitch selectivity, has a much lower obp than say Philly which has a similar average. Imagine what these guys could hit if they had a more selective approach at the plate. Part of reaching your pinnacle as a player is based on your mental approach to the game. BENGIE is the worst example because he can hit, but he swings at anything. He makes outs for the pitcher. Only teams that pitch him over the plate get burned by him. Unfortunately almost the entire team has adopted the Bengie approach. In today’s game making the starting pitcher of the opposition throw a lot of pitches is part of the built in strategy for all teams not named the giants. But, if we had 5 Cains, and 5 Lincecums we would get into the playoffs, even with the crappy hitters surrounding Pablo. I still think some of these hitters would not be so bad if they changed their approaches. However, being that is unlikely, it is time to find some new players.
by bradleybear on Sep 30, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the Alderson trade was bad. It’s not that I thought T2 would evolve into a good major league starter for us (at the time I felt that at least 4 other of our minor league starters had a brighter future), but that didn’t mean he didn’t have a high value to other teams in the league. Even if you credit Sabean with “knowing” that Alderson was overated and due for a fall, that’s not how a GM should work a trade. Alderson’s internal value might not have been as high as advertised, but his external value certainly was. Granted, some teams did probably have him downgraded due to his midsummer problems for Conn., but there would still have been more than a handful of teams that rated him highly.
Sabean sold him when his value was the lowest that it ever had been in his brief career – and he didn’t even get the Pirates to throw in a few million to cover some of F. Sanchez’s salary. He got fleeced by Huntington when the Pirates were desperate to shed salary – and if you look at the many trades that Huntington made this year Sabean was the only GM that got fleeced.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Oct 1, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done sir. A well written article.
by deuce deuce on Oct 1, 2009 1:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not true
We would absolutely be a great team with 5 Lincecum’s and 5 Cain’s
by NeifiChicken on Oct 1, 2009 9:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah , they'd hammer the ball all over the place.
I’m sure glad that I don’t see more “Pitching is all we need to win” themes , because I’d really go batshit.
no , really.
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Oct 1, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW...
I’m usually not a fan of such ideas, but what if we had Grant e-mail Neukom some of the anti-Sabean threads (such as this one and yesterday’s) to help show how passionate people are against Sabean. I mean 900 comments in 5 hours about why Sabean sucks is a pretty strong statement.
by NeifiChicken on Oct 1, 2009 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t know how seriously they consider something like that. It seems like a lost cause. Although I suppose it can’t hurt to try.
by deuce deuce on Oct 1, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/thinks of ATHF’s Ignignok and Err
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Oct 1, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I had more of a Wonder Twins mental image.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 1, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Form of a giant meatwad!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 1, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been fussing, growling and cursing for the last 2-4 weeks; even more incoherently than usual for me. Glad to have E show up and put into a package a rational person, not similarly, effected can understand.
Like Fla Giants I am more pissed at the inability to get roughly equal value than the run production directly. If he could get decent value for the want is traded out the runs production would go up. Po-TA-to verses PO–ta-to. I just wish Bow Tie would call at least part of this off.
/Shrugs
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 11:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A Tale Of Two Daves
One is a meticulous speller , the other is haphazard.
Oh , the content is always there , but the form sometimes has me wondering if someone should hide your car keys .
/winks
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Oct 3, 2009 2:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if someone should hide your car keys .
Adult Easter egg hunt!!
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 3, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm, this offense would make the playoffs if we had five Lincecums in our rotation.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
by cheno on Oct 3, 2009 12:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I really hope the Giant's brass read MCC.
Because this article is spot on. Very enjoyable read! This is why I love MCC!
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Oct 5, 2009 7:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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