Fixing the Giants Offense, Part I: Just Do Nothing
by Grant on Sep 28, 2009 9:37 AM PDT
694 comments
The offseason hasn't even started yet. I already hate the offseason. The hopes of improving the Giants' offense are dead; long live the hopes of improving the Giants' offense.
The team wants to re-sign Juan Uribe, which is a fine idea. But they want to sign Juan Uribe to start at second or third. The Giants' yer-only-good-as-yer-last-200-at-bats organizational philosophy doesn't see how it's possible that a player can decline after a good season. Randy Winn had a heckuva run before the Giants extended him, and he kept producing at that same level, averaging almost 30 home runs a year. Aaron Rowand was a 25-homer guy when the Giants signed him, and, gee, no one's regretting that move, what with Rowand continuing to be a middle-of-the-order force. So when you're looking to repair a completely broken offense, the first question you should ask yourself is, "Are there any 30-somethings who are coming off good seasons that were totally unexpected?" That's where they hide the gold in this league, people.
If Uribe hits like he did this year, he'd be perfectly fine at second or third. The odds of that happening are less than stellar. You have to factor in a possible decline with Uribe. And if he drops back to the performance level of his previous two seasons, he'll be another millstone around the neck of the offense. That's a big leap of faith.
If I were running the team, though, I'd re-sign Uribe too. And I'd promise him a starting job. So I'm not anti-Uribe. He should be the starting shortstop next year. I had a chance to talk with Giants Brass about this, and our conversation is after the jump.
Giants Brass: Whoa, whoa, whoa. But we have Edgar Renteria.McC: ...who is one of the worst regular players in baseball. His offense is so poor that he'd be a bad player if he were a Gold Glover, which he most certainly is not. He plays the game as if he's encased in a Jello mold, and he's trying slowly fight his way out.
Giants Brass: Well, give him a chance. He was injured.
McC: Even if that's true, even if for the past two seasons his abysmal performances were due to injury, why would you expect him to get better? He's getting older, not younger. When you re-sign Juan Uribe and start him anywhere but short, you're doubling your risk. You're saying, "Well, I hope this 34-year-old, nicked up shortstop can stop being terrible, and I hope this 30-year-old player who had his best season in five years doesn't regress." Why not minimize the risk and say, "I hope this 30-year-old player doesn't regress...but if he does, at least he won't be worse than the player he's replacing, and we'll be able to upgrade another position in the lineup."
Giants Brass: But Renteria makes $9M. He has to start.
McC: Would you like to pay $9M and have a good shortstop, or would you like to pay $9M and have an awful shortstop?
Giants Brass: Uh. The first one?
McC: Good. Because you're going to pay $9M regardless. So you might as well find a good shortstop.
Giants Brass: But Renteria makes $9M. He has to start.
several hours later, after three PowerPoint presentations
McC: So, as you can see, the concept of "sunk costs" applies to baseball as well. You're paying Renteria $9M, yes. But that doesn't mean he's an asset to the team. So if you can find a better player who improves the team, you do it. That $9M isn't coming back, so there's no sense in paying all that money and getting a lackluster performance in exchange.
Giants Brass: Okay, smart guy, answer me this: Why wouldn't Renteria start if we pay him the kind of money that starting players usually get. Hmmm?
McC: Let's move on. So you're plan is to put Uribe at third, moving Sandoval over to first. Edgar keeps his starting job. Rowand starts in center.
Giants Brass: Have you seen what that guy makes? He must be some player!
McC: So that leaves second base as an open position, and...
Giants Brass: I'm pretty sure we'll find a way to keep Freddy Sanchez. He hit .284 for us!
McC: Uh, okay. So now you have two outfield spots to play with, and....
Giants Brass: Oh, no. We're going to start Andres Torres and Eugenio Velez in left. Vrrrrrrrooom!
McC: ...
Giants Brass: Vrrrrrrrooom!
McC: So you have one outfield spot with which to fix the entire offense.
Giants Brass: It'll be tough, especially if Bengie doesn't come back. I mean, the drop off from Molina to Whiteside will be huge over 162 games.
McC: Do you have any players in mind?
Giants Brass: Well, not Matt Holliday or Jason Bay. They'll require contracts that are too big, and they're not worth the long-term risks.
McC: Wow. I agree wi...
Giants Brass: Just kidding. We'll pursue them as if they will fix the offense single-handedly, but they won't want to come here. No, but there are a bunch of options out there. Marlon Byrd is over 30, and he's likely to just keep getting better. He hits for a little power in Texas, which will obviously translate well here, he doesn't take walks...he's perfect. Garret Anderson is due for a breakout season. Randy Winn is due to rebound. We have a bunch of options.
McC: Thank you for your time. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go commit hari kari.
Giants Brass: Good luck! I don't even think he's broadcasting for the Cubs anymore, but he is crazy. I saw a documentary once where he talked about the moon being made of spare ribs. Crazy stuff!
McC: ...
Giants Brass: Vrrrrrroooom!
This team is going to want to rebuild a very bad offense, yet they're committed to retaining one of the worst pieces of that offense, even though he doesn't provide any defensive upgrade, and even though there's a capable replacement who wants to come back to the team. I don't get it.
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Giants Brass: Oh, no. We’re going to start Andres Torres and Eugenio Velez in left. Vrrrrrrrooom!
McC: …
Giants Brass: Vrrrrrrrooom!
This was funny.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 28, 2009 9:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
funny, and blood boilingly spot on. Unfortunately.
by Sabean's_Folly on Sep 28, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
VRRRRRROOOOOOOMMM!!!!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which brought to mind the Friends episode when Ross uses a toy car to rub a back.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least the Torres/FBAL platoon will be easy to replace when Thomas Neal hits his way to the big leagues next year.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 9:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just like John Bowker did this year.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there’s better odds of him replacing those two than Jermaine Dye.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t believe the Giants would give Neal a lot of starts next year no matter what he does in the minors.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that code for: Brian Sabean will not be brought back?
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
VROOOM!!
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hits his way to the big leagues next year, only to go 0 for 1, before a permanent banishment to Poseyland.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s got… two tickets to Posey-dise
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
by ringleader3 on Sep 28, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pack his bags, he leaves tonight.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
which if you think about it
makes no sense. I mean, it’s Paradise. Why do you need luggage?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Sep 28, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Eddie Money literally had a couple of tickets to Sandals Jamaica and was excited enough to write a song about it.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully bochy won’t be back, and we get someone whose dick isn’t hard for verteran grit.
by travis j bagdad on Sep 28, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we certainly do have veteran grit to spare, but I’m not sure I understand the appeal of that trade.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont know, I think Palmeiro could be an asset for us.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Sep 30, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kinda like Todd Linden and Tony Torcato did, right?
by aBulldog on Sep 29, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woodland’s 2nd son never came close to a 1.000 OPS at any level. Linden was better than Torcato, but it still took him three tries to put up good numbers in the PCL.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 29, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because some prospects fail, all prospects fail.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 29, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because inferior prospects fail, superior prospects will fail.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 29, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
stellar.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 9:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM.
by koel on Sep 28, 2009 9:55 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
you can say that again!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM.
by sfoakbay on Sep 28, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM.
by koel on Sep 28, 2009 9:55 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM.
"I FEEL A LOT OF HAPPY!" - Juan Uribe
FREE BUSTER POSEY
by djp4cal on Sep 28, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, a 1920’s Style “death ray.”
Wait, what?
by troymccluresf on Sep 28, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What message board is this?
When was it founded?
How many members are there?
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 9:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
does anyone think that Uribe is in the right place at the right time with the wrong GM?
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This guy should do a song about that
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was in the right place, but it must have been the wrong GM
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
by ringleader3 on Sep 28, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe walks on gilded splinters?
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gilded splinters of Renteria’s bone spurs.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice hat.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 28, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Refried confusion is a-makin' itself clear
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 28, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Sabean’s made it pretty clear he wants Sanchez back as well, so that leaves third base for Uribe. This would push Sandoval over to first base, and move Ishi and Garko into forgotten land. Uribe should be signed to play the same utility role he was signed to play this season, with a fair chance to beat Renteria out for the SS job. I disagree with you about Renteria being guaranteed a SS job because he’s being paid 9 million dollars. The only thing that guarantees him is a spot on the roster. If he doesn’t bounce back in spring training, I don’t think the Giants’ will have any problem in benching him or eating his contract. Sabean will have a new deal in his pocket, and not be afraid to admit he made a mistake.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
because Sabean is so prone to admitting mistakes?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he ate Roberts’ contract this year. He won’t come out and admit it’s a mistake, but he won’t be afraid to do it.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember that interview back in like 2003 or 2004 with Ralph and Tom, where Sabean ended the conversation by hanging up on Ralph? Sabean took responsibility for the shortcomings of the team.
It’s one example, anyway…
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Sep 28, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’m not saying he never has, but he pretty much has to be dragged kicking and screaming, at least from what I can tell.
Take Benitez for example, he blamed the fans as if we were forcing his hand and making him do something he didn’t want to do.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I’ll say one thing about Armando: He was strong enough to be the whipping boy.”
In announcing the trade, Sabean issued a challenge to the remaining Giants, who fell to 25-27 with a 4-2 loss to the Mets.
“Tonight we got three hits, looked as dead as a doornail, and that wasn’t Armando’s fault,” Sabean said. “We’re at a crossroads in my mind. Apparently, the fans, the press and maybe some people in the clubhouse felt he needed to go. We’re going to find out what they’re made of now that they don’t have a whipping boy. We’ll see who’s strong enough to be a whipping boy.”
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus what an arrogant fuck
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was right though.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
by cheno on Sep 28, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was Armando the whole problem?
No, but what the hell? He was still an awful player and couldn’t do his job. Just because everyone else on the team sucked (hey Brian, who’s fault is that, BTW?) doesn’t mean that Armando being the closer was a good idea. A GM criticizing his team’s performance is pretty stupid.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, are you implying that Brian Sabean is responsible for the horrible rosters we’ve had the last 3-4 years?
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
by Lyle on Sep 28, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
see: Renteria, Edgar
and Aurilia, Rich
and Klesko, Ryan
and Roberts, Dave
should i continue?
by sfoakbay on Sep 28, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PLEASE STOP
/falls to his knees, sobbing
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Sep 28, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Ryan Klesko is exactly the kind of cheap flyer that the giants should be taking. Wasn’t his contract $1MM>?
That’s nothing like what they did with Roberts, Rowand, Rentaria, Winn etc etc.
by DrStankus on Sep 28, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too have no problem with the Klesko move.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 28, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was actually pretty solid for about half the season.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well yeah, i guess
nothing spectacular though
by sfoakbay on Sep 29, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guessing this is chasm
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 29, 2009 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i personally don’t mind a velez/torres platoon as long as rowand is gone!
by travis j bagdad on Sep 28, 2009 10:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like you’re going to mind a velez/torres platoon.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Even if there is a change in both Manger & GM spots a new Gm probably can’t move Rowand tell mid season any ways.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GAH
No. Just. No. No FBAL in CF. Rowand is a better player than him. IF you can get some value for Rowand (unlikely) then do it. However, he’s not so bad that you would just cut him and call it a sunk cost. He’s one of 3-4 league average hitters on the team for christsakes.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well in my scenario we are trading rowand for bradley. so rowand would not be cut or a sunk cost.
by travis j bagdad on Sep 28, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? You want Milton Bradley??
by AndOnTheDrums... on Sep 28, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over Rowand?
Oh.
Hell.
Yes.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not. Bradley is a head case AND injury prone… that sounds exactly like the kind of player we need here.
Also, he was just mildly above average in Chicago this year. He may be a better hitter than Aaron Rowand, but he can’t play CF, either.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but it is really Milton Bradley AND about 15 million dollars for Rowand. When I first heard the idea I was very against it too, but its growing on me. Of course I’m also dreaming that we can swap Wilson+ for BJ Upton who will roam CF so…….
Thing A
by sam23 on Sep 28, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately that’s not cash up front, it’s saved over the course of the deal:
$2m in 2010
$2m in 2011
$12m in 2012
So I doubt we would see the benefits of that money for a couple seasons anyway. But yes, the shorter/cheaper contract is the main thing that Bradley has going for him.
Still, the devil you know, right?
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea its not up front, but it would make it quite a bit easier to give out a longer term deal to a FA this offseason. (of course that might not be a good thing) I’m still not crazy about the swap, I’m just not as totally, completely against it as I was when I first heard the idea.
Thing A
by sam23 on Sep 28, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if you end up DFA’ing Bradley, is the potential minimum salaried replacement player that much worse than Rowand? AND you get to save $12M down the road!
by aGIANTfan on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to hear what minimum salaried replacement CF option the Giants have.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
yes, a minimum salaried replacement level player would be ~2 wins worse than Rowand
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
what data are you basing this on? VORP? And are you using his career numbers?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR
on fangraphs. He’s at 1.8 for the year.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't doubt you
it’s just that I’m having a hard time believing that’s true. His wOBA is actually slightly below average for the past two seasons, so that means his value derives almost entirely from his defense.
OK, i went and checked, and he gets a 2.1 point bump for playing CF, so that explains his being in the black.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup
that’s pretty much it. Avg. defense in CF >>>>>>>>>> avg. defense at most other positions.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMHO, Milton Bradley is not a good pick for a young team, regardless of money (or irregardless, I’m never sure). There will be a number of young players learning what is means to be a major leaguer in the next few years and he is not the example you want your players emulating. I’m not convinced his production is enough of a sure thing to justify taking him on for this team at this point in time.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“irregardless” is not a word and doesn’t even really make sense, since it’s a double negative. “regardless” is correct.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you’re being sarchastic, in which case “irregardless” is fantastic bait.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was chumming the proverbial water.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly, irregardless is a word. Just like ironical and firstly. I found out that “firstly” is a word when a post-doc from China used it in a manuscript, asked me to proof the manuscript, and I crossed it out and wrote “first.” Then I went to my dictionary and looked it up.
And I cried.
by speckops on Sep 28, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Normalcy
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
language evolves
evole with it or get left in the dust.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*evolve
that was moderately ironical
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What? Ironical means the same thing as ironic but just makes you sound dumb. Firstly has the exact same meaning as first, but makes you sound dumb.
Are we evolving the wrong way?
by speckops on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For some reason, it’s my experience that “ironical” gets used a lot in academia.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? The only time I’ve ever run into it was when it was used by an Engrish speaking classmate of mine.
Bright enough guy, but English was definitely not his first language.
by speckops on Sep 28, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really. Explicate was another big one.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the douchie professor in Good Will Hunting uses it.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Idiocracy!
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sarchasm?
all i’m saying is that getting hung up on the continually changing nature of language is silly (i.e. crying over it).
That said, as an editor, i would never leave “irregardless” in anything that came across my desk.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you excise both firstly and ironical as well?
by speckops on Sep 28, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i actually have been known to use "firstly" on occasion
generally when I’m being silly, so it would depend on the context.
Ironical can gtfo. No way is that staying in.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, if you’re trying to be pompous in a tongue and cheek manner, I can see firstly. Agreed though, ironical just sounds dumb no matter how you use it.
by speckops on Sep 28, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
My wife said “ironical” constantly for a few months. I made the mistake of telling her it’s not a word so she said it to annoy me. I think she even busted out “ironically” a few times.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have an evole digging in my virtual garden.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you’d better xterminate it!
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
kill -9
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
mv ~/virtual_garden/evole dev/null
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think “evole” has the second “e”
.jpg)
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
great album
I’m finally getting into Sonic Youth, after a long period of “not getting it”.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I need to get some older Sonic Youth
All I have is Daydream Nation, Goo, and Dirty.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have DDN, Sister and EVOL so far. Sister is the one that made them click for me. I’m trying to take it slow.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, I’ve only had the chance to listen to Your Funeral My Trial a couple of times, but I like it so far.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a great album; it was my least favorite Nick Cave album at one point and it’s vaulted all the way up to 5th place now.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sister is still my favorite, though I like most of their albums, even the recent ones.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure it’s a n00bly choice or something but Schizophrenia is such a great song.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I could see where someone would say it’s noobish because it’s such a stereotypical Sonic Youth song. But IMO it’s so good it transcends that.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a nugget.
They once cut an album – really more of an EP – calling themseves “Ciccone Youth” (after Madonna Louise Ciccone) called The Whitey Album.
Usual Sonic noise , they completely destroy on “Into The Groovey” (Featuring actual samples from Madonna herself!)
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 28, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were awesome at the Fox a few months ago. Played mostly early stuff.
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
by ringleader3 on Sep 28, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, early stuff and their new album (which is not bad!)
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
by ringleader3 on Sep 28, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sonic Youth & Yo La Tengo both with solid most-recent releases. Good year for some of my long time faves.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize some dictionaries list it, so perhaps saying it’s not a word is not quite right. How about this: it’s like “ain’t,” in that it’s in the dictionary, but it ain’t never gonna be proper usage.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sad but true
Sabean is probably horrible in Vegas. He never knows when to walk away from the table
by NeifiChicken on Sep 28, 2009 10:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he’s also always in a rush. He never gets bargains at the end of the off season because he makes quick signings right at the beginning of the FA period. Orlando Cabrera at 1 yr 4 million compared to Renteria’s contract? Even if Edgar had stayed healthy and had a better year, Cabrera at that price is a no brainer over Edgar.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what’s his prediction for 2010 if the Giants’ bring him back?
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You left out a UZR of 85 at shortstop, and 130 SB.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 28, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
74 Home Runs ?
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Sep 28, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you ‘XANTHAN WAS RIGHT’ yourself?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
by ringleader3 on Sep 28, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think now you’re supposed to rant about groupthink now.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALWAYS
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he just did. there’s no stopping him now.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No he can’t. But he can XANTHAN WUZ RITE himself thats for sure, just the correct grammar doesn’t go so well on the interwebs
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
by TexasRanger on Sep 28, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Still in despair.
"Use the stencil! Do it!"
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Sep 29, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and they hate:
jponry, Grant and everyone else
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate your shtick
TWSS!!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 28, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting pwned is my schtick!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting schtick is my pwned!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting schticky, amirite?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re so into you’re schtick.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
C: Whiteside/Posey
1B: Sandoval
2B: Sanchez
3B: Uribe
SS: Renteria
LF: Velez/Torres
CF: Rowand
RF: Schierholtz
puke
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's a pretty craptastic lineup.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 28, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
based on everything he’s said the last week, that’s exactly what he’s planning, although I think it’s Bowker/Nate in right. Neukom should fire him just for this.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, when one of them has a reverse platoon split…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/still don’t believe in Nate’s reverse platoon split
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/not faithful to Nate’s reverse platoon split
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it’s not really there for his minor league numbers, so…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
if Whtieside is still on this team...
I’m going to barf
by NeifiChicken on Sep 28, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
whiteside is fine as a backup who starts 20 games a season
KINDA LIKE BOCHY DID WHEN HE WAS A BACKUP CATCHER
by sfoakbay on Sep 28, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
make Whiteside the manager
Why wait another 20 years for the inevitable.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 29, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
:-(
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adding Posey is an automatic upgrade, though.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But wouldn’t it be better than 2009?
No Winn
No Molina
Correct use of Velez/Torres split
I think if you’d play Ishi/Garko at 1B, Uribe at SS and work in Bowker, it would certainly be better than what we had this year.
I’m not saying I’d be satisfied, just that I don’t think it would be puke. It still would be dry heaves.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2009 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might throw up a little in my mouth.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 29, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But wouldn’t it be better than 2009?
If you substitute 2008 for 2009, this is exactly what many of us said about this year’s opening lineup.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 29, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, and we would likely be a worse team than this season, because more than likely our pitching will regress. In order to guard against getting worse, the goal should be to improve our offense by a greater amount than a Uribe, Velez/Torres, etc.. “upgrade”.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 29, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will be interesting to see Nukes first full off season. I am interested to know if all this Sabean/Bochy praise was political or real.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 10:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This makes me real sad. I’m just hoping Neukom is as smart as I think (pray) he is and can see that the improvements this year were in spite of Sabean and Bochy instead of because of them. It seems he wants to make a quick decision, so at least we’ll figure out our fate soon enough.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 28, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
how can anyone think that Sabean will be fired when he’s already talking about next year’s team? Any GM without a contract for next season would not be talking about the team in this manner. I haven’t heard any talk about Bochy being retained, however, so I’m still clinging to that. When Bochy starts talking about what he’ll do next season, then all hope goes out the window.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Sep 28, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you messing with the fantasy? We know about the reality. Don’t ruin the fantasy, okay?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah. As long as he’s employed, Sabean’s job is to plan for the future. He has to act like he knows he’s coming back even if he doesn’t.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last week on KNBR
Sabean did a pretty good job of at least faking that his negotiations with ownership is just a formality. It was implied that he already has assurances that he’s in, just contract negotiations left.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t really take that away from what he said. As I recall his answer was that he felt good about the job he’d done and the plan they had set out a couple years earlier. I thought he was pretty careful not to imply any knowledge of Neukom’s point of view on the matter. In fact, he might have ended by saying just that, that he can’t speak for Neukom.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I heard the same thing, except for saying that he couldn’t speak for Neukom, but he at the least Sabean feigned that he wasn’t worried about rehired. He mentioned that when he got the extension from Magowen, they worked out a 2 year post-Bonds plan and he feels has done a good job of following through on that. Although I probably misspoke in saying that he impied he will be rehired, just seemingly confident that he will be rehired.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He trying to get his “future” plans out there for the world to see. If he has positive response Neuk will see and take that into consideration. We also don’t really know how Nuekum works. Is a guy who is very political and wont bad mouth you until you are gone (if at all)?
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean will never leave
not even death will remove him or at least not the statue of him which will be erected behind the CF fence.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 28, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s the alternative? People are going to ask about next year. Is he suppose to just say “well my contract ends in a month so I haven’t thought about it.”? Maybe it is true that he’s been told he’s going to stay but I don’t think him talking about the future supports that.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 28, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously doubt they would kick Sabean completely out of the Organization. When the time – eventually … please some decade soon – comes Sabean with be “promoted” up & out of GM. That is how he could both know he is out of GM chair and still have a leg to stand on when talking about the following years.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So like, you mean we're not in this?
by FairweatherFan on Sep 28, 2009 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Giants Brass is so unimaginative that it will find a way to not make improvements to the worst offense I’ve ever seen. How about some ***damn creativity, already! (Good creativity)
If the moon were made of spare ribs, I’d totally eat it. But not if it was made of Swiss cheese
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Sep 28, 2009 10:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, my favorite planet is the sun.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I really don’t get it. They want to improve the team but they seem pretty willing to go into next season with pretty much the exact same offense as this year.
I guess they think a full season of a healthy (LOL) Freddy Sanchez will make a difference.
McC: Uh, okay. So now you have two outfield spots to play with, and….
Giants Brass: Oh, no. We’re going to start Andres Torres and Eugenio Velez in left. Vrrrrrrrooom!
McC: …
Giants Brass: Vrrrrrrrooom!
dialogue rings true.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 10:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, a full season of a healthy freddy sanchez would make a huge difference
But That doesn’t mean the team doesn’t still need upgrades.
by FairweatherFan on Sep 28, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I should have made "big" difference
Obviously it would make a difference (if he’s healthy, which is a question, and if he doesn’t follow his quick declining 2B predecessors).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do wonder where the Giants would be right now if Freddy Sanchez had been on the team at the start instead of Manny Burriss (not that that was a plausible idea at the time).
by deuce deuce on Sep 28, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Sanchez has been something like 2.5 WAR this season (I don’t know exactly, because the WAR numbers on FG seem to be down), compared to something negative WAR for our 2B the rest of the year (plus Uribe, who was productive). Anyway, I would imagine it would be about a 2-3 win difference.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he hadn’t gotten injured/slumped, I think he was on pace for like a 5 win season back in June.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it was really more like if he hadn’t regressed back to being Freddy Sanchez he could have been a 5 WAR player. He had about a .385 BABIp the first 10 weeks of the season.
by NeifiChicken on Sep 28, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what? Was he hitting a lot of line drives? If so, the high BABIP is sustainable.
Pitching BABIP != Hitting BABIP.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.385 is 57 points above his career average, 15 points above his best ever BABIP, and 51 points over the second best BABIP he ever had prior to this year, so it’s not unreasonable to think it might be flukey.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly.
If you think Sanchez would have sustained those levels you and Sabes are probably smoking the same thing. I truly believe his BABIP skills are about to take a major turn for the worse as well, given his age, injuries, and poor K/BB rates
by NeifiChicken on Sep 28, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did I say he was going to stay on the 5-win pace? the fact that he got injured and slumped so much is extremely relevant to the whole discussion.
And I agree that I don’t really want much to do with Sanchez beyond 2010 and even that’s iffy.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was more a reply to markdash who seemed to think it was sustainable
by NeifiChicken on Sep 28, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You shouldn’t be looking at his BABIP, you should be looking at his LD%. If he was hitting a lot of line drives, more than he ever has in his career, it’s the LD% that is unsustainable, not the BABIP. BABIP is just a byproduct of the type of balls the hitter is putting in play.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes and no.
LD% does not directly correlate with BABIP as much as previously thought. Not to mention LD% can be fairly random as well month to month.
But if you want to hark on LD%, Sanchez LD’s have been at their lowest rate since 2005
by NeifiChicken on Sep 28, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good knowledge. From my brief perusal of the internets, it seems that power hitters (guys who hit a lot of homers) have a higher BABIP on line drives than slap hitters. This makes sense intuitively—they hit the ball harder!
That said I wasn’t making any statement about the sustainability of Sanchez’s performance, just that his BABIP may have been perfectly in line with the number of line drives he was hitting at the time. I guess I just kind of get pissed off when people quote BABIP for hitters, because 95% of the time they use it incorrectly.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a BABIP calculator out there that you can use to calculate what Sanchez’s BABIP should be based on his hit type rates. I doubt it would come out to an even .300 but it also is highly unlikely to be anywhere near .385.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for the sake of conversation, what do you think Jonathan Sanchez would fetch in a trade? I’ve always been pretty confused as to what other teams value him like. One minute, he looks like a top-of-the-line starter, the next he looks like a mediocre 4th-5th starter.
by deuce deuce on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We should be able to get either Hanley Ramirez or Chase Utley for him
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, I had Albert Pujols as a starting point in my mind.
by deuce deuce on Sep 28, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Pujols, Colby Rasmus and the money to sign Matt Holliday
then sabes will consider it.
Grab Some Pine Meat!
by Gobroks on Sep 28, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s like a paradox or something
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure we’re going to give Uribe a multi-year deal, and he’s going to regress to not being very good.
I’m pretty sure we’re going to overpay for some mediocre veteran outfielder over the age of 30.
I’m pretty sure we’ll make some FA signing that everyone here hates but that ends up working out pretty well.
I’m pretty sure Freddy Sanchez will be back and will have at least two DL stints.
I’m pretty sure Sabean and Bochy will be back.
I’m pretty sure the team will be within 10 games of .500 next year, and this will be interpreted as a sign that Sabean and Bochy are doing a great job.
I’m pretty sure Garko and Lewis won’t be brought back.
I’m pretty sure Velez is going to suck next year.
wheeeeeeee.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 10:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What I’m wondering about: will Brian Bocock inexplicably spend another full season on the 40-man?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course!
What will be really interesting is 2011, when he’ll be out of options. Then we’ll see how committed Sabean really is to him. I certainly cannot rule out the possibility that he’ll be on the 25-man.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
my
God.
Unless he learns to hit in Augusta in 2010, when he’s a 29-year old in Low A, that might be enough to make me give up.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 28, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean's Ideas
Giants 2009 .305 wOBA (worst in majors)
Career wOBA averages:
Velez .309
Torres .277
Uribe .311
Sanchez .326 (hasn’t hit this high in three seasons)
League Average .332
Aproximate 2009 cost of keeping these players
$10 – $17 million
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If these thing come to pass this January & February better have some really awful whether if the Giants expect to hold my attention on non Tim & Matt start tell those two chowder brains are removed from my Orange & Black.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This post is so sad, but so true.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This post make me has a sad. I took a two day break from the Giants this weekend and woke up this morning feeling refreshed. The idea of Bochy and Sabean getting extensions has put me in a foul mood. The fact we overachieved this year might lead ownership to believe that extensions are warranted, but the simple fact that we have one of the worst offenses in the history of the game and a manager who won’t make any drastic changes to this lineup should warrent them to look elsewhere for a GM and Manager. I doubt this will happen. One of these jackasses will probably get an extension. I just have to learn to live with that.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 28, 2009 11:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One of these jackasses will probably get an extension.
Optimism!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You will live with it and like it.
It’s the Giants Way!
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m ok with keeping Sabean. Bochy has to go.
When Magowan left and Nuekom took over, I was willing to give Sabean a chance to rebuild via the “Giant Way”. I think he has the turnaround ahead of schedule and should be allowed to continue.
Bochy, on the other hand, has to go. I’m certain he cost the Giants some wins this season with his goofy lineups. Granted, he wasn’t given a great hand to play this year, but the team was better than most of us thought. Although he hanfdles the staff well and seemed to keep the team playing well after heart-breaking losses, his refusal to play younger guys held them back.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goofus, for God’s sake man, step away from the Sabean Koolaid.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 29, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The number of wins that Bochy has cost the Giants this year is insignificant compared to the number of wins that Sabean has cost the team.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 29, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun fact:
The 2008 Giants scored 640 runs.
The 2009 Giants have scored 627 runs with 6 games left to play.
Historically bad offense is historically bad.
"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."
by Kitspool on Sep 28, 2009 11:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
I didn’t think it was possible for this offense to suck worse than last year’s.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well it hasn’t yet. We are 1/10 run better per game!
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the last three games are in San Diego. It wouldn’t be that surprising if the Giants scored two runs in three games down there.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lest we forget
2008 Opening Day lineup:
1) Dave Roberts LF
2) Rich Aurilia 1B
3) Randy Winn RF
4) Bengie Molina C
5) Ray Durham 2B
6) Aaron Rowand CF
7) Jose Castillo 3B
8) Brian Bocock SS
LOL us.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Zito 9th, of course.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can it be
that the two positions made to host immobile, clod power hitters, have been staffed with non-entities for two years in a row?
Imagine if Pablo’s elbow had forced him out of the lineup for an extended period… this team’s run production might have been measured with a micrometer.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 28, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean over rates 1B defense
Ishikawa
JT Snow
Oddly, I think he under rates defense up the middle.
by DrStankus on Sep 28, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only Ihikawa was as good a hitter as JT.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 29, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so much fail
best player in that lineup…aaron rowand
by sfoakbay on Sep 28, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s kind of amazing. Granted, the team will only have to average a little over 2 runs a game to match 2008’s performance, but I’m frankly not sure if they’ll be able to muster up that offensive output.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
by mymclife on Sep 28, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really is remarkable
That w/ the addition of Sandoval, the team is still going to score about as many runs as last year.
by FairweatherFan on Sep 28, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And not having Castillo at third for most of the year…and not having the Bocock/Vizquel offensive clusterfuck at short.
Sigh.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kinda makes you wonder what new and unexpected catastrophe we have to look forward to in next year’s lineup.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unexpected?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, we’re going to look fantastic on April 4th!
Or at the very least we’ll have convinced ourselves of such.
by troymccluresf on Sep 28, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but:
position- 2008 OPS/2009 OPS
C-769/669
1B- 684/737
2B- 707/622
3B-708/875
SS-576/663
LF-757/746
CF-734/738
RF-827/692
Totals- 703/696
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL RF
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well… Renteria’s been better than Bocock and Vizquel. But not much. And 2B (even including Uribe) has been worse than Ray Durham was last year. LF has been mostly worse, I think. RF has been much worse, thanks to Winn’s collapse. Molina’s been a little worse. So 3B and SS were quite a bit better, but they’ve gotten less production out of quite a few other positions.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am aware of all this. I just never would’ve predicted it at the beginning of the season. Well, I would’ve predicted the dropoff at 2B, but I expected it to be offset elsewhere.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I can understand that. I guess I would have expected Winn and Molina to decline somewhat, but not nearly what has happened, especially with Winn. OTOH Sandoval has been much better than I expected. So thank God for Pablito, or this team wouldn’t have scored 600 runs.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the community predictions, I thought Winn and Molina would fall off, which left me guessing:
Winn:
AB: ~550
BA: .279
OBP: .340
SLG: .415
HR: 8
SB: 12
Molina:
AB: 368
AVG: .262
OBP: .288
SLG: .358
HR: 5
SB: 1, when the pitcher literally falls asleep at the mound. Molina makes it to second just in time for the catcher to realize what’s going on, run to the mound, get the ball from the pitcher’s hand, and throw to second.
I had Molina even worse than he ended up being – basically the same, but with no home runs and fewer at bats. But Winn was far worse. 8 HRs from Winn now seems comically optimistic.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, looking at the Sandoval projection thread, I thought I was being optimistic – but I undersold him in every category. I was off by like 60 points for OBP.
Damn is he good.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to enjoy revisiting the Sandoval projections.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grant's joke optimistic projection was pretty close
AB: 520
AVG: .373
OBP: .422
SLG: .529
HR: 22
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/2/19/764216/community-projection-pablo
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GRM about nailed Sandoval’s walk total.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like xanthan has a helmet lunch or dinner in his future.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Xanthan FAIL.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy howdy.
.386
Plus setting the over/under at .355 was kinda like saying OMG! How will he outhit Nate McClouth! in hindsight, of course.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair...
xanthan never said anything about posting over a .355 wOBA…
by Tamdrik on Sep 29, 2009 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OOOOHHHHHH YEAHHHH
damn, .386 wOBA. That’s fantastic.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
XANTHAN? MORE LIKE FAILTHAN, AMIRITE?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 29, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My guess wasn’t too bad, missing like 20 points of BA or so.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to not enjoy next season when Sandoval underperforms our expectations.
/bans self
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I should read down before I comment. What say hey said.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Durham was way better than what we’ve gotten out of 2B this year. Molina was 16 points better in terms of OPS+ last year. Winn was 29 points better last year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Molina and Winn both have an extra year of veteran grit, which should’ve offset all that.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Veteran grit is all what you need to start. Ask Rowand.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/Sabean denies existence of OPS+ stat, bans jponry from future chalk talks
"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."
by Kitspool on Sep 28, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MISSED CHANCES DOWN THE STRETCH NERDZ!!!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find hokysmksbw hilarious and inspirational
Even when he/she is trying not to be.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FACT:
Since Bonds has left, Sabeans “rebuilding” off the offense has produced successively WORSE offenses.
It’s not really his fault though – every season it’s like he has to replace really shockingly below replacment level hitters at two positions, and well below averaqe hitters at 2-3 more… it’s no wonder he’s not making any progress.
HEY WAIT. That IS is fault!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Sep 28, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the Giants had a better record this season than last, so he’s doing a good job. That’s just science.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Period. End of story.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She blinded me with science!
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His “rebuilding of the offense” strategy looks strikingly familiar to his “build the lineup around Barry Bonds” strategy. Sans Bonds of course.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for not calling that a fun fact.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 28, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Patterns, man patterns
The Giants’ yer-only-good-as-yer-last-200-at-bats organizational philosophy doesn’t see how it’s possible that a player can decline after a good season.
And the worst part is, it’s a double-edged sword and both edges cut you. Think about the young guys like Fransden who get written off based on an insufficient chance.
"The questions are so stupid. I don't believe in rivalries. I don't believe in curses. Wake up the damn Bambino, maybe I'll drill him in the ass."
- Pedro Martinez, asked about the Curse of the Bambino
by achiappanza on Sep 28, 2009 11:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I couldn’t despise the way this team is managed any more than I already do…
by WTF on Sep 28, 2009 11:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Could be the Nationals or Pirates.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
by cheno on Sep 28, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One major pitching injury and a couple of minor ones
and this team will look EXACTLY like those teams.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 28, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but i'll take Huntington and/or Rizzo over Sabes
Grab Some Pine Meat!
by Gobroks on Sep 28, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am trying to decide whether to root against this team until they fire Sabean
but since it took them like 5 years to get rid of the even crappier Matt Millen, this is probably not a very good plan.
by DJ Tofu on Sep 28, 2009 11:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Matt Millen was working for the Giants? Wow, that explains a lot.
"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."
by Kitspool on Sep 28, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Millen worked for the Giants?
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm… I was making a generalization to sports teams/their owners leaving incompetent personnel in charge even when they are clearly failing…
by DJ Tofu on Sep 28, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then maybe you shouldn’t have used the pronoun “them” after referring to “this team.”
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When discussing the Giants FO the word “pronoun” should be replaced with the word “amateurnoun”.
by Sabean's_Folly on Sep 28, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(polite golf clap)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 28, 2009 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that conversation is made up!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 28, 2009 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nfwai
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scary thing is, I think Grant just transcribed jponry’s notes from the Chalk Talk
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Baggs:
Sabean said he discussed Vrrrrrrrooom! with the season seat holders, but according to him, he only pointed out that the Vrrrrrrrooom! will not vest and the club controls the Vrrrrrrrooom! – nothing more.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 28, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There we have it, Vrrrrrrrooom trumps SWOOP!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 28, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If both bochy and sabean are brought back
I’m not renewing my mlb.tv subscription. So those of you that don’t like me around will be happy next year if this happens. If either one is brought back I’ll have to seriously consider if I want to watch this team. The pitching alone may keep me around, but if they keep the same idiots around, and they do nothing to improve the offense (which, as you say, they really can’t), then I don’t see the point of paying close attention to this team.
Of course, that’s easy for me to say in September. In March I’ll be clammoring for baseball like a junkie again. But it sounds good anyways.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Protest?
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sort of
I don’t believe in protests, because my 20 bucks a month won’t make a huge difference either way. I just mean it’ll be very hard for me to justify spending the time on this team if they do nothing to improve the way they’re managed. I’m not as hardcore as almost everyone else here- I love the Giants and have for awhile, but at a certain point if they don’t do something to get better, then…
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m pretty sure protests exist
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s impossible to prove protests exist.
by Sabean's_Folly on Sep 28, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Sep 28, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bible never says anything about protests
You can’t say there were protests when you never saw them.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Protesting is pretty much all the Old Testament prophets ever did, actually!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ezekiel did things that were crazy! Daniel interpreted dreams! Hosea got cheated on by his wife!
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 28, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I took Bible as Lit, I did a presentation on Ezekiel. I think I still have my notes on the crazy shit he did on my computer. Let’s see…
- Bizarre symbolic actions. He lies on his side for 390 days, conducts a mock siege against a city drawn on the side of a brick, shaves off his hair, and shows no apparent emotions at the death of his wife (24:15).
Also, UFO nuts have come up with the theory that he was abducted by aliens, and some scholars have theorized he was schizophrenic.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I have to leave my house!”
/looks at door
/looks at door
/knocks hole in wall and walks through it
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 28, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think everyone would like to know how it came about that Ezekiel did crazy shit on your computer.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 28, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am getting close to this point myself. It will always be the team I shared with my grandparents. I’ll always look at the NL West standing first. But I only have so much time in my life and an ownership that would make me go through a 4th year of Sabean & HIIEEAD is very much like a lover that will not be true but demands you remain faithful; eventually it turns into a go away mad just go away situation.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You posting here means you’re weren’t arrested at the Metrodome after the 49ers lost with 2 seconds left.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 28, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter how sound your solutions
and, no matter how satisfying or cathartic the process, speculating on roster improvements in the hopes that positive changes will be made, is futile. Sabean simply does not value talent the same way the Internet does. And he never will. He is overeducated in the old ways, undereducated in the new ways, he is stubborn, prideful but most importantly he has the ears of the guys who are in charge.
Sabean is a guy who relies on 1980s evaluation criteria. In other words he is the quintessential flat-earther.
This is a man whose every fiber values rbi’s over on base percentage. Clubhouse camaraderie over athleticism, and basically anecdotal accomplishments combined with emotional inclinations over objective valuation and technology aided new knowledge.
As good as Alexy Belly and Tommy Edison were in their day, I certainly would not be relying on them and their 19th century knowledge base to provide me with green solutions to third world country energy demands in the 21st century.
But thats just me.
by E Ticket on Sep 28, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Brian Sabean is a baseball God
To morons who can’t tell the difference between Beef Bourginon and a Swanson’s meatloaf.
by Sabean's_Folly on Sep 28, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, and if Neukom is professionally analyzing the Giants’ business, he would see this. There are business resources (other ways to value players) that are not being used under Sabean’s management. Four consecutive losing seasons, followed by a winning season led by a likely unsustainable pitching performance. In an analyzing a business, one has to go by projected business perfromance.
I can’t believe a rational business owner would rehire Sabean.
But thats just me.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends on what your criteria is
If you can pack your stadium in one of the largest markets in the country yet hold your payroll to about a million dollars more than the Royals (32nd in market size) you’re doing a good job in some quarters.
If the fan base believes the team is competitive, they will continue to patronize the Giants. To many people, what the Giants are peddling is an illusion based upon outdated valuation methods leading to a false player personnel strategy. But ownership and management do not listen to those folks because though they are accurate, they are a minority.
If you can earn more by providing less product, that is a hard proposition to pass up for those whose only desire is to have a nice seat at the ballpark, preferred parking and a real-estate tax write off. Whether or not, true students of the game, offer more insight into roster composition than traditional media and in-house lackeys is immaterial to them. They simply do not care to see things outside of their country club world.
The ownership sees the following:
Eighty-six percent capacity attendance
A strong bottom line
Strong radio and tv ratings
Supportive main stream commercial media
Stable and fan-friendly player relationships
Marketable young players.
In the owners world batting average, rbi’s, “meaningful games in September” “exceeded expectations” , great clubhouse chemistry is what they are told is being competitive. Bulging attendance, coupled with Timmy, and Pablo and Matt fever, trump the realties of squandered opportunities, abominable mid-season player transactions, and ignorant lineup construction.
And thats just for the 2009 season. The 2009 season will conclude the worst running consecutive 5 years of position player production in the 51 year history of the San Francisco Giants. But you will never see that or hear that in mainstream media and certainly not from the buffoons on the flagship stations.
What the ownership group does not grasp is that the 6 year playoff drought is longer than the 5.6 year average major league career. Rebuilding as a long term project in the Giants world is a canard in the free-agency, wild-card era when you are in the top 20% of potential revenue markets. Three years should be the absolute minimum to reach the playoffs. That the Giants “feel good” about themselves after 6 years of massively expensive failure is pathetic. Maybe in the way a felon gets extra canteen privileges.
When your payroll is the same as Kansas City and you finish towards the bottom of your division for 5 years in a row, there is a tremendous disconnect between the objectives of hardcore followers and management. But they have done a masterful of job. The folks keep packing the joint, and spending money. Whose to say the front office is wrong.
It all depends on your idea of what success means. For the Giants front office winning is not the only thing. It isn’t everything either. Perhaps it is “Winning is some kind of thing….we’re just not sure what it takes.”
by E Ticket on Sep 28, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
E is nothing like OGC.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although I guess they both tend to write a lot.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At length sometimes
But not often. And I think paragraphs are a good idea, and run-on sentences are not for the most part.
Also Natto is one of my favorite all-time illustrators. So I have that going for me. Which, as they say, is nice.
by E Ticket on Sep 28, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t know b/c I don’t read the longer posts
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if and when you earn your G.E.D. you’re welcome to come back and try again. Not licking your computer monitor would be a good start in ascertaining some reading comprehension.
by E Ticket on Sep 28, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just funnin with you.
I love everybody, especially the ones I give a hard time to. Really
by E Ticket on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its cool. I need to be motivated to go and get my GED, anyways
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got mine from this really cool place I found inside a matchbook cover. The women were kind of homely though. And smelled like sulpher.
by E Ticket on Sep 28, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, you love to give a hard time….. to….
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My computer monitor tasts like burning.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are worse things it could taste like.
/thinly_veiled_porn_on_the_internet_reference
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or ratemypoo.com
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or a mix of the two?
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or a mix of the twogirlsonecup?
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are all OGC
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the women of McC.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The who?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a calendar that is coming out?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
HOLY SHIT IT WAS BUSTER FUCKING POSEY
by ringleader3 on Sep 28, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
rowr
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playoff games have got to make the owners a boatload of money. After six seasons without one, I hope that’s a major concern of theirs.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some years back, I remember the front office claiming that whether or not they re-signed Bonds would depend on whether or not they made the playoffs and got the extra revenue or not.
Then they didn’t make the playoffs and they re-signed him anyway, so there’s that.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IIRC, after the 2002 Meteorite the BRASS said they had more money to spend on free agents (and more incentives to offer with signing bonuses) because of the playoff run.
Barry Bonds generated revenue >>> Barry Bonds salary
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That the Giants "feel good" about themselves after 6 years of massively expensive failure is pathetic. Maybe in the way a felon gets extra canteen privileges.
Better analogy: Maybe in the way that a prison bitch thinks when he notices “hey, my anus stopped bleeding”
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Sep 28, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+ 1 billion.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Sep 28, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greetigns Giants fans, long time listener, first time caller.
I agree with just about everything E ticket wrote, and I wonder why ownership doesn’t realize that the most quality on the field translates to more money. Just ask the Red Sox. I am sure they make a lot more now than they did before they won the WS. They were selling out their park, and I am sure they got good revenue from other sources TV, radio, etc. but winning a WS then getting another soon after put them in a different stratosphere.
by The_Ghost_of_Wayne_Gomes on Sep 29, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not.
No, it’s not just you. That is a fine, succinct summary of the problem.
It may be satisfying to assign to Sabean the character of an orc, but he’s just a man trying to do a job, regrettably with grossly inadequate tools. At some stage, probably early on, people in baseball lock into a set of beliefs, and cannot be moved off them. As someone once famously remarked, you cannot use reason to get a man out of a position that he did not use reason to get into.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops.
My post above was supposed to be in reply to E Ticket’s. To San Francisco Slim, though, the basic reply is the same: No, it’s not just you. But the questions are, one, whether Mr. Neukom has enough baseball background to understand what’s wrong and why, and two, whether he has the command personality necessary to make sweeping changes early in his watch.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a couple of other things:
Whether Neukom has the instinct to get an outside analysis of the baseball operations might be more important than his personal baseball acumen – he may not be stats savvy, but he may be smart enough to get an outside opinion.
Second is the reality of being the General Managing Partner. Whether he has the character to make sweeping changes might be moot if doesn’t have the authorization. My ignorance of the ins and outs of the ownership situation may be on display here…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the key word is . . .
Managing.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, and my niece was the manager at McDonalds, but she didn’t make any real policy decisions… not saying I know either way, but he may not have a totally free hand.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Larry Baer has a lot say in decision making.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 28, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re darn right he does!
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 29, 2009 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the stupidest comparison I have ever seen. Anyone with half a brain knows that the Giants resemble Jack in the Box, not McDonalds.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand corrected.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neukom needs to have a comprehensive grasp on the fundemental business of the baseball product, which is winning on the field. If he is only concerned about revenue as related to marketing and not based on won/loss performance, ultimately the team will not be fiscally successful.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to you, sir, I reply with the Los Angeles Clippers.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I add on the Toronto Maple Leafs. Highest-grossing hockey team in the NHL, haven’t made the playoffs since 2004 (or won the Cup since 1967).
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
by mymclife on Sep 28, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and no number of 50 mission caps have helped either.
by DrStankus on Sep 28, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to you, sir, I reply that the Clippers are only the 25th most valuable franchise in the NBA, despite playing in the second largest city in the country. The difference between them and the Lakers? This shouldn’t be hard.
Let’s face it—basketball is a lot different from baseball. But I think we would all agree that winning more games is good business.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Donald Sterling gives a shit how much Forbes says his franchise is worth in the theoretical event that he sold it today. He rakes in money hand over fist by cutting corners everywhere possible (plus not renting to, ahem, undesirable elements) and perpetually teasing fans with just the slightest sliver of hope that this might be the time that tunnel painted on the wall is actually real.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’m trying to say that if Sterling REALLY wanted to make a ton of money, the Clippers winning would go a long ways towards achieving that goal. He’s taking the “easy” way out, continually penny-pinching and stashing his revenue sharing bucks.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you’re being tounge and cheek, but the Clippers are not any sort of business model for anything.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
aren’t they always the most profitable NBA team?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, revenue sharing in the NBA is an entirely different animal than in MLB. Plus their franchise value is pretty low, which is one of the chief ways that ownership groups turn a profit (by reselling the team for a massive profit years later).
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edison would figure something out.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
by cheno on Sep 28, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then Tesla would do it better
OH NINETEENTH CENTURY ELECTRICITY GRID BURN
BUT NOT LITERALLY
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 28, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then Edison would conduct a smear campaign involving killing elephants to try to prove his was superior!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The SF-based lesbian motorcycle club?
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
it’s the premier all-female AC/DC tribute band
http://www.hellsbelles.info/home.htm
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am partial
to AC/D-She myself.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Sep 29, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work in the building in New York (downstairs from Gawker) where Edison used to fry old run-down cart horses with AC as part of said smear campaign.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, bondslegend, how was your trip to the Metrodome? Did you successfully avoid arrest and/or punching something (or someone) in frustration?
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Sep 28, 2009 12:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I did, actually
I had a helmet and everything. I took some shit for it but nothing too bad. Minnesota fans aren’t really that bad and many just felt sorry for me. I wasn’t talking shit to anybody during the 4th Q because I had a huge feeling of dread through the whole game. I knew they would fuck me over, and they waited until 12 seconds left to do it. Meh, it was fun until that point.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Sep 28, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i had that same feeling throughout the game
by gbears16 on Sep 28, 2009 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How fucking hard is it?
LF: Torres / Velez
2B: Sanchez
C: Posey
3B: Sandoval
SS: Uribe
1B: Garko
RF: Schierholtz
CF: Rowand
Reasonable minds may disagree on the precise order, but I’m really failing to see how any member of a major league front office could think that Rent should start over Uribe. It boggles the mind.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Sep 28, 2009 12:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s just as obvious to me that Velez / Torres in LF is going to suck.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
I mean, ideally we’d play Jason Bay there, but Fred Lewis could be an option too.
And against lefties, Torres could play CF.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Sep 28, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no faith in Schierholtz either
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, “no faith” is a little strong. Assuming he’s a good defensive RFer, how well would he have to hit to be acceptable?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if he got himself to be as good on defense as Randy Winn (and right now he’s a long way from that, though he probably has greater physical tools than Randy), then if he hit like Winn’s career average (.770 OPS or so) he’d be an average player. I think that’s going to be very difficult for him to achieve unless he learns to take some walks or suddenly develops some HR power.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no.
He’s a Winn-level defender currently.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is your opinion or are you going off UZR?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
UZR
Nate is at 15.1 career UZR/150 (though SSS), while Winn is at 15.7
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SSS indeed
Although I think Nate’s probably a plus defender in right
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
still though
I’ve yet to see anything to indicate that there would be a significant (if any) defensive drop off in RF by playing Nate there full time.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 28, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I hadn’t looked recently, but I remember UZR didn’t like him much this season. (Looks) Huh. He supposedly has plus range and a minus arm. Looks like he did something magical in the 19 games he played last year that have distorted his career numbers a bit. I’d still say he’s probably not as good as Winn at this point, but he does have the tools to get there. Obviously his bat would play a heckuva lot better in CF than it does in right, but for some reason the Giants don’t seem to think he can play there.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s weird. You figure 10 assists in 600 innings would absolutely lock down a good arm rating.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nate has done a lot of good with the arm, but as a young player, I do remember him making a fair amount of airmailed throws and general mistakes. I think he certainly should be a player who contributes with his arm but I’m not surprised that he’s not technically there yet with it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I wish Nate could play CF
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can’t we give him a brief tryout now, and further evaluate in spring? What would it hurt? I think he can do it.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Sep 28, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like where you are heading with this.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 28, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I wish Nate could be GM.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he could be an average hitter for CF. I don’t know if he could play average defense there, but I think theres’s a much better chance that he can be average defensively in CF than that he can put up the .780 OPS he’d need to be an acceptable player in RF (no matter how good his defense is).
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a largely irrelevant distinction, I think. The difference between the average batting line of a CF and a RF is about ten runs. When an average CF moves to a corner, he generally becomes a +10 defender. So the sum total of offense & defense relative to peers remains more or less the same no matter where he plays.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Nate could become an acceptable bat…..
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think so, but I wouldn’t mind trying a Nate/Torres platoon in center if they can manage to dump Rowand.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oof
I’m not sure if I would want the Velez/Torres platoon.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Sep 28, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, get used to the idea. It's happening.
Sabean has been saying it all over the place, including the now famous Chalk Talk.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 28, 2009 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate that asshole
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LAD 1
PIT 11
I would just like to add suck it Russell J Martin
OSH Baseball Tip: Your hair? It's dumb.
by JackieO on Sep 28, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"hara kari"?
Is that anything like Harakiri?
Will you require a second to decapitate you?
It’s not usually my thing, but if you really need help….
by hokysmksbw on Sep 28, 2009 12:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He actually meant to make a reference to Harry Caray.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just listened again to the Larry Krueger rant from August of 2005
It just pisses me off to no end that he could have recorded that last night and been 100% accurate except for the names.
Brian Sabean should be running the french fry machine in some Jack-in-the-box in Reseda. Instead, he gets to pretend he’s a baseball man and is given carte blanche continually fuck this franchise’s dog.
by Sabean's_Folly on Sep 28, 2009 12:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Conventional Wisdom"
If you buy conventional wisdom that MLB players peak between 28-to-32 years old, our younger guys will only get better… but the switch hitters who can’t hit .200 from one side of the plate have to stop trying… the guys who are inconsistent fielders have to find consistency… Ishikawa needs to hit as well away from AT&T as he does at home… and they all (including Panda) need to cut down on Ks and have to work on base running. The only young guy (other than Panda) I believe in is Nate.
As for the vets, I think it’s a given that Wynn is gone or he’ll have to take a huge pay cut to be a backup… I say “pull a Dave Roberts” on Renteria and give the job to Uribe until Tulowitzski (or someone like him) becomes a FA… Rowand is not worth the money, but I don’t think any of the younger guys are better… Freddy’s a keeper at the right price… and while I love Molina, Posey is the future (I just hope he works out). Garko et al aren’t mentioned for a reason.
Unlike many folks on this site, I do think one more bat… assuming the younger guys come through… will make a difference. I don’t follow the American League so I don’t know who’s available, but I’d go after someone like Halliday in a heartbeat (but just say “no” to Bradley).
by karl m on Sep 28, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
NOT IN NATIONAL LEEG!!
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The current thinking is that hitters peak in the 25-29 range.
by Dan from NM on Sep 28, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Robinson is old school, and he said it takes 8 years to become an accomplished hitter. It was stated earlier in this thread that the current avg. player career length is about 6 years. This implies that most hitters haven’t had enough time to perfect their craft.
by boogalou on Sep 29, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off-topic
ESPN.com headline:
Toronto’s Gaston unsurprised by Ryan’s demise
For a second there, I was like, holy shit, did BJ Ryan die and I didn’t hear about it!?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Unsurprised?
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 28, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's sad is this:
We’ve all pretty much accepted Fred is not really in the discussion for next season.
:-(
/still wants Sabean to pick up a RH bat (maybe Reed Johnson or Rocco) and strict platoon RH bat and Fred in left field next season. Or Murton, but I don’t see that happening
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
how about a Fred and Torres platoon? I still haven’t given up on Fred.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about John Motherfucking Bowker?
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t possibly play it. Slow, poor range, and weak arm. John Bowker will not be an acceptable RF in AT&T.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm… we were discussing this in jcb9’s thread. jponry likes Bowker better than Lewis in RF. I thought Bowker looked rather bad in the outfield over the weekend. Do you think Fred could handle right? Is there no way to get Fred and Bowker in the lineup at the same time?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fred could handle right the same way he handles left: uglily. But at least he’s fast.
But I doubt the Giants are willing to let either one of these guys start, much less both of them.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Fred's going to be gone
And I seriously doubt Garko will still be around.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 28, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/sees both of those hurting later on.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My dream team next year (not that it will happen)
C Posey
1B Garko
2B Sanchez
SS Uribe
3B Pablo
Lf Holliday (I can’t stop thinking about him)
CF Bossman Junior (Rays may trade him instead of Crawford to play Jennings an intriguing buy low candidate)
RF Bradley (traded for Rowand)
This is just my dream, I love Lewis and Bowker so maybe only one of my corner fantasies has to come true. However I do not believe in Velez, I think Torres is a fluke, Nate is a hacktastic POS who will never have the discipline or power, and fuck all that noise I want to win!! K tear into me
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
by TexasRanger on Sep 28, 2009 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
this would obviously be awesome so I assume it’s totally unrealistic.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that while the Rays probably like Crawford better for next season, he’s also much more expensive than Upton.
But I like your dream.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats why I think they might try to trade him, he is just so dreamy, sigh…
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
by TexasRanger on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL lovesick TexasRanger
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its true, all the other boys and girls work hard on their school work while I stare out the window and doodle notes of me watching bossman jr in center field
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
by TexasRanger on Sep 28, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daydreaming of the day you and Bossman Jr. finally reunite in centerfield?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Fixing the Giants Offense”
This is so it doesn’t reproduce, correct?
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Sep 28, 2009 1:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No worries
If we’ve learned one thing the last two seasons, it’s that the Giants can’t score.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The infield
Since Sanchez is apparently written in, for the sake of simplicity, we can reduce this to a discussion of the three other IF spots. As I see it, the options are:
1) 3B Uribe, SS Renteria, 1B Pablo
2) 3B Pablo, SS Uribe, and 1B Garkikawa
3) 3B Pablo, SS Uribe, and 1B PLACE TO UPGRADE THE OFFENSE.
For the sake of argument, I would throw out this as a relatively cheap option at 1B given his age and injury issues (yes, I know that is a particularly sore spot). But look at what happens to the numbers with each option keeping in mind these are 2009 numbers and not projections based on a full season.
1) 0.293 0.344 0.459
2) 0.295 0.349 0.477
3) 0.306 0.383 0.484
I say offer an heavily incentive laden contract to Johnson and then concentrate on spending money on a corner outfielder.
by capn on Sep 28, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You should pencil in Renteria at $9 million dollars at shortstop.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he’s going to start the season as the starting shortstop for the 2010 San Francisco Giants.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not convinced. It totally hamstrings their ability to make any significant upgrade anywhere other than a coner OF spot. I understand this is the point of Grant’s post, but is it totally absurd to think that they will try to field the best team they can irrespective of a bad contract? I think eating one year of Edgar is not out of the question. They can say his elbow was mangled during the surgery…
by capn on Sep 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ll have to disagree. While I find that scenario more appealing, I don’t see the Giants going into the offseason looking to replace Edgar Renteria. They only have about $20 million to spend and there are other areas to address first. If he looks terrible in Spring Training (and I mean god awful) then I could see them eating his contract.
I like the Nick Johnson idea. I rosterbated to him a few days ago. I’d like to give him Sanchez’s money.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not disagreeing with you at all; rather, I am banging my head against my keyboard sitting here thinking about how limited the options really are (especially if they keep Sanchez). Putting Uribe at 2B makes things a little better, I guess. The problem is that I don’t see how Edgar is anything but wretched. The steepness of the slope of his decline has been near vertical. I just don’t see how an elbow operation fixes the fact that he plays baseball as if he is doped up on ’ludes.
by capn on Sep 28, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson
Exactly/ have been pre-maturally rosterbating about him as well. If Giants are spending $5/6 million/yr on Sanchez, spend the money on Johnson. Same injury risk as Sanchez, but for his career he is about as productive a hitter as Pablo. Go with scrubs at 2nd – Frandsen, Velez, etc.. Make a Sanchez type deal at mid-season for a 2ns baseman if it is warranted.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we can always
pray for the Durham like dead-cat bounce.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Sep 28, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m fully on board with the Nick Johnson program. I don’t even see it as necessarily conflicting with option (1). Since Uribe can play any of the infield positions except first, and Sandoval can play first and third, you can add Johnson and you have five guys for four spots. Sanchez and Renteria are kind of old; they need rest, and even Sandoval needs more rest than he was given this year. Plus you’d have three players (Johnson, Sanchez, and Renteria) who missed significant time with injuries this year, so you’d value the depth.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for fun . . . .
Let’s assume, one, a new and rational front office, and (at least for discussion) two, no acquisitions. Remember those.
Jesus Guzman has shown evidence of a possibly good bat (839 career minors OPS, 885 this year): maybe not, when translated, the answer to a maiden’s prayer, but compared to what? But Guzman cannot realistically play any position but first (and is said to need work even there), so where to put Garko’s under-rated bat? The OF is the only possibility. Despite the grumping of some Cleveland fans, the reports are that the Indians’ spring experiments with Garko in the OF went surprisingly well—LF, even RF; but RF in the-park-of-many-names is too big and tricky, so it’s LF.
But then where to put Fred Lewis’s also-under-rated bat? RF? In a small sample, his UZR in RF looks terrible (compared to about average in LF). Still, faute de mieux, say RF.
At 2B, Sanchez is useless: his career numbers are barely tolerable. If Brock Bond is ready, as he seems to be, there’s the leadoff spot filled. So now we’re looking at:
1: S Bond, 2b
2: S Sandoval, 3b
3: R Posey, c
4: R Garko, lf
5: S Guzman, 1b
6: L Lewis, rf
7: R Uribe, ss
8: S Torres, cf
The #3 through #6 order can be jobbied about, depending on exactly how things fall out in the event. Renteria can be retained and get as much play time as his post-recovery abilities justify (which I think is going to be more than many here seem to want to believe), with Uribe playing some 2B, too. And notice: no third catcher is needed. Sandoval can relieve Posey, and Garko is the emergency guy. Frees up a spot. TBA: fourth OF, reserve IF corners.
Not the ‘29 Yankees, but not the ’09 Giants, either. Defensive shortcomings? Yes, plenty; but I’d settle for it anyway.
Now for some acquisitions . . . .
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That lineup doesn’t really look much better to me than the 2009 Giants.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it is a much worse defensive lineup.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Take a look at—for want of better measures—the OPSes involved.
Or look at it this way:
C: big upgrade
1B: probably a fair upgrade (over Ishikawa)
2B: big upgrade (over Sanchez and/or Velez)
SS: push
3B: push
LF: upgrade over most everybody played there except, maybe, Lewis
CF: upgrade (over Rowand), even with the splits
RF: significant upgrade (over Winn and/or Schierholtz)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t see how it’s a foregone conclusion that Brock Bond would be any sort of upgrade over Sanchez.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And considering Andres Torres’s minor league OPS is 36 points below Rowand’s major league OPS, and they’re basically the same age…
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus Guzman MLE: .736 OPS. the year he had in Fresno this season absolutely pales in comparison to the one Ishikawa had last year. Look it up.
Brock Bond MLE: .685 OPS
We’ve gone over Torres. I have to wonder what would inspire you to think that Guzman is a major league quality first baseman based on the season he had in Fresno this year but Bowker isn’t a major league quality OF.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that feels like a bad version of the 2008 Connecticut Defenders
by capn on Sep 28, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, Posey has only played in 3 or so games for his career. I think batting him 3rd is not a good place to start. I guess that applies to bond also
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t see Brock Bond making the jump to the majors, let alone being a leadoff hitter right away, let alone being a better leadoff hitter than Lewis.
Garko in left field would be a disaster.
Torres would almost certainly be a worse hitter than Rowand.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm?
About Posey in #3: yes, maybe start him down in #6 if you like—but if he’s a major-leaguer, he should be able to hit anywhere. The #3 slot is somewhat over-rated—#2 and #4 carry more significance (except psychologically).
The flat assertion that Garko in LF would be a “disaster” is based on just what evidence? Those who saw him play it were favorably impressed—look it up (I did).
Why Bond could not move from AA ball is unclear; lots of people do.
I man, in sum, where are the data for all those assertions? Looked at Torres’ record lately? Looked at Rowand’s?
Defense, I agree is not sparkling, but neither is it terrible. And in any event, the assumption is that we have to cook with the ingredients now in the kitchen. And if I hear anyone saying defense trumps offense, I’ll puke.
(Nor, notice, did I say this could not be materially improved by choice acquisitions: it could. But what’s better with what there is? Look at OPS numbers.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense, but your lineup and your team is pure speculation. I admire its creativity, but it’s generally nonsense.
by Alex_Lewis on Sep 28, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“With all due respect, and remember I’m sayin’ it with all due respect, that idea ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin’ it on”
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re-reading my post, I realize that it’s pretty much an insult masked with a bit of civility.
by Alex_Lewis on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garko has played twelve games in the outfield in his major league career. He’s slow and not exactly a svelte man.
Why Bond COULD move from AA is unclear. He’s a marginal prospect having a nice season. He has an .813 career OPS, doesn’t have much of any power.
Andres Torres has had a nice season as a backup in the majors, but he was never particularly good in the minors – he was barely ever adequate. He pretty much only put up decent numbers when he was ridiculously old for AAA ball. Aaron Rowand, while I don’t much like him, has pretty much been average.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
If you’re arguing a player – especially someone who’s not an elite prospect – can and should skip a level, the burden of proof is pretty much on you. So seriously: why exactly do you think it’s a given he’d be an improvement over Sanchez?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's take 'em one by one.
Garko is not svelte; neither was Kirby Puckett. He ain’t no effing gazelle out there (the way Frank Robinson once described Jack Clark to me—well, sort of the way), but he made a diligent effort over last winter and lost about 15 pounds and was reported (as I keep saying) to have looked decent out there, running faster (including on the bases) than previously and showing decent ball sense.
Why Bond could not move up remains unclear. A “marginal prospect”? Why? Because this ever-astute front office sees him that way? His career OPS is 813, and in Connecticut’s answer to Death Valley, he still managed 838 this year. Basically, he is a Freddy Sanchez who takes a lot of walks: career OBP of .419, and .429 even in Connecticut. Fielding is hard to quantify well with minor-league numbers, but this year his RF/9 was 4.35, while Sanchez’s was 4.67—inferior, but not quite night and day. As to why I think Bond would be an improvement, it’s because, um, he’s an improvement over a guy with a career OBP of .334 and no significant pop? And the level-skipping stuff is so 20th-century: guys nowadays, even absent extraordinary talent of the sort, say, Will Clark had, skip levels routinely. Triple-A is now the place you stash bubble guys till someone on the Big Club gets hurt or fails majestically.
Torres is no longer a green pea, and he has picked up his game over the past three years or so (which is a long enough span not to be a fluke)—unusual, but it happens, especially with guys who can stick it out into their late 20s and early 30s; his OPS in 2007 was 848, and in 2008 was 892, so his MLB 2009 is no great surprise at all.
As to Guzman, his career AAA OPS (2 seasons) is 859; Bowker’s is 857 (3 seasons). Clearly Bowker is the Second Coming and Guzman is a trashy imposter. Well, we’ve seen pretty well what Bowker can (and can’t) do—why the great reluctance to see what Guzman can do?
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s Bowker’s total minor league OPS not his AAA OPS and also his “3 seasons” of AAA include 2 games in 2006 before he had been to double A and 23 games last year.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
in fairness. Guzman’s “two seasons” include just 15 games from last year.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only know what I read in the papers, if I could read.
Absolutely right: I skipped a line in the copying over.
OK, careers: Guzman, 839; Bowker, 857.
Guzman: 2007, 908; 2008, 948; 2009, 885.
Bowker: 2007, 886; 2008, 659; 2009, 1047.
One is consistent, the other is wildly irregular. Approximate appearance-weighted three-year totals: Guzman, 912; Bowker, 929. I think the comments still apply.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Approximate appearance-weighted three-year totals: Guzman, 912; Bowker, 929.
What are you basing this on!? It looks like you’re pulling this out of your ass, and that’s my gimmick.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crude but I think passable:
Each year’s OPS times the plate-appearance total for that year; add those, and divided by the period sum of plate appearances.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guzman’s 2007 was in high A (Cal League) and the majority of his 2008 was AA Midlan (Texas League).
Bowker’s 2007 was AA Connecticut in the Eastern League, his 2008 was not much of a sample.
This season, when they were the same age in the same league, Bowker did much better.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garko is not svelte; neither was Kirby Puckett.
Wholly irrelevant. By the same logic, you can argue that Cecil Fielder could play third base because Pablo Sandoval can.
and in Connecticut’s answer to Death Valley, he still managed 838 this year.
He also had no home/road split at all (well, .001 OPS), so the Dodd Defense is meaningless. Also, a career .813 minor league OPS isn’t actually very good.
Torres is no longer a green pea, and he has picked up his game over the past three years or so (which is a long enough span not to be a fluke)
Torres’s AAA numbers aren’t anything special for a guy who’s way too old for the level of competition – especially since they’ve largely come in the hitter-friendly PCL. He’s ben a pleasant surprise in the majors this year – but SSS applies. I think he can be a solid backup and I’d love to have him in that role, but anything above that is gravy.
As to Guzman, his career AAA OPS (2 seasons) is 859; Bowker’s is 857 (3 seasons). Clearly Bowker is the Second Coming and Guzman is a trashy imposter. Well, we’ve seen pretty well what Bowker can (and can’t) do—why the great reluctance to see what Guzman can do?
Actually, Guzman hasn’t spent two years in AAA. He’s spent one year plus 15 at bats there. Bowker hasn’t spent three seasons at AAA; he’s spent the better parts of ONE season there, plus 102 at bats there in 2008 and four at bats in 2006.
Also, your OPS numbers are wrong. Well, the one for Guzman is right. But Bowker has an OPS of .971 (and a line of .322 / .369 / .596) in AAA. His AA OPS is .886, which is ALSO higher than the number you claim he’s posted at AAA – and hey, that’s in Dodd, too! .857, FYI, is his career OPS in the minor leagues total – it’s dragged down by poor seasons in 2005 and 2006. He’s completely change his approach since then.
Also, your argument makes a false assumption – I’ve never said I don’t want Guzman to get any playing time. I would’ve loved to see him get a chance this year and, depending on how things go next year I’d be okay with him getting playing time in 2010, too.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, two more quick points
No, I’m not dismissing Bond as a marginal prospect because of the Giants’ opinion. I think it’s pretty clear that’s worthless (witness Emmanuel Burriss.) I’m basing it on the fact that I’m not aware of any of the usual experts – BA, BP, KLaw, etc. – ranking him as anything like one of our top prospects. Of course, they could be wrong (witness Pablo Sandoval – though I think BP loved him), but I don’t see anything about his stats that suggest he’s an overlooked gem. I haven’t seen him play, though, so there’s that.
Also, remember John Bowker’s 2008 season? He showed signs of promise at time, but overall struggled mightily. What lead up to this season? Why, he had a promising season at AA/Dodd – and then the Giants had him skip AAA and go straight to the majors, more or less. Which is just what you want them to do with Bond.
Bowker, AA, 2007: .307 / .363 / .523, age 23-24
Bond, AA, 2009: .333 / .429 / .409, age 23-24
Of course, Bond plays at a more premium position, so there’s that.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gem?
No, he’s not a “gem”, even at his best. But he looks to be better than any of the immediately available alternatives. Hey, if he fails, bring up Brian Bocock.
Seriously—more or less—the team I described would have places for a couple of extra men; keep Velez as a last-ditch fallback if Bond isn’t ready, now or ever. Or even, for pity’s sake, keep Sanchez for a while till we see. Presumably there are still a few other GMs out there whose eyes are dazzled by high batting averages and a batting crown in the history, so there’s always room to move him on (especially if he re-ups cheap). Nothing is carved in stone. Even on that best-we-can-do-now squad, there’s way too much room for failure. But, again, who is so much better than any of those?
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Er . . . .
Wholly irrelevant. By the same logic, you can argue that Cecil Fielder could play third base because Pablo Sandoval can.
I think that’s sort of vicey-versa: the original remark strongly implied that Garko cannot play OF well because he is not svelte. By that logic, any skinny guy can play good outfield.
Sorry about the screwup on the Bowker numbers: I have posted an emendation. I think the point remains the same, though. The “he’s changed his whole approach” would apply, if I recall aright, only to 2009 numbers, and they are good numbers, but I am quite skeptical for reasons I have elaborated before, and the John Bowker I see still hacking at down-and-in pitches does not look to me like a much-changed batter. I’d be the first to say that that proves nothing, but it doesn’t disprove anything either, including a belief that the tiger does not change his stripes, nor yet the leopard his spots. At least not in his early or middle 20s.
I’m glad to hear that at least one soul thinks Guzman deserves a closer look, but I want to be clear that I was not addressing any particular individual’s comments about Bowker or Guzman. I’m not red-hot on Guzman myself, but, again, the theme of the puzzle is what’s the tastiest dish that can be cooked up with the ingredients on hand in the kitchen.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, I would have liked Guzman to get more of a chance this year.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also, in response to your original post, Guzman only bats R not S (at least according to BBallRef and from what I remember)
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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by Natto on Sep 28, 2009 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, svelte isn’t the right way to put it, so how about this: he’s really, really slow. He’s faster than Bengie, but that’s about it.
Considering he would have more value as an outfielder than at first base, I suspect there’s probably a reason he’s only played 12 games there ever. Of course, I wouldn’t have thought Sandoval could play third for a full season, and I was wrong. The problem is just assuming Garko can be a passable outfielder based on being impressed by seeing him play there once or twice.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
I don’t have the details, but the sense I got from the reportage I saw was that it was quite a few spring games. Now I know all about “spring games”, but those are besides his handful of regular-season games (which I had in fact overlooked), in which his LF RF/9 of was nearly league-average (2.06 vs. 2.12).
Amusing sidebar I just noticed: his post-season OPS in 39 Plate appearances is 899. Essentially meaningless, but interesting.
It may also be mildly noteworthy that he was consistently described as hard-working, diligent, and willing to do what is needed to improve (and he apparently has improved, in most or all aspects of his game, notably his fielding and his speed).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Garko is the slowest baseball player I have ever seen, not-Bengie Molina division. On a flyball prone staff, you could be looking at full-blown catastrophe with him out there.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s some minor leaguer faith right there.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how long the “Garko is secretly good” meme can last. Over the last two years he has had 950 plate appearances and hit .270/.345/.412. That’s a nice bat to have coming off the bench, but he’s even less a major-league starter than Ishikawa.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering the fact that he will never play. Probably awhile
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 28, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, he does have that ace in the hole.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ve got to have an ace in the hole.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team is run by a bunch of ace holes.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 28, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fargin Ice Holes
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moroni Deported to Sweden
Claims He’s Not from There
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You shouldn’t hang me on a hook Johnny. My father hung me on a hook once…. Once!
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fargin bastages.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Lousy Cork Suckers.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 28, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flip you, melon farmer!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 28, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scruffy-looking nerf-herder!
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by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Till the data say otherwise.
Garko had an off year in 2008, as players will; even so, his value then was substantially higher than Ishikawa’s this year. He was off to a good comeback start in Cleveland this year, then he got traded to here and was nailed into a coffin, from where it is hard to play well. Garko’s offense numbers from 2006 (his first year), 2007, and 2009 in Cleveland are fine: not Hall of Fame, but a lot better than what’s on the roster now, save Sandoval.
What I wonder is how long this “don’t look at the data” meme can last. . . .
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on which data you care to look at, I suppose. You’re trimming out an awful lot of data that doesn’t suit your theory.
The average MLB first baseman hits around .280/.357/.475. Garko’s career numbers are nowhere near that, and he’s clearly subpar with the glove. And he’s at the age at which very few players ever get better.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This gets tedious.
The man has had—through yesterday—1,702 plate appearances. In SF, he has had 117, which is less than 7% of his career, and they have been very scattered and irregular, which makes it very hard for almost any batter to perform up to his abilities. Does that look like “trimming out an awful lot”? If so, you and I have decidely different ideas of what fraction of a whole “an awful lot” amounts to.
His 2008 in Cleveland wasn’t optimum, but it was, as I said before, substantially better than Ishikawa’s MLB career average and essentially equal to Ishikawa’s best year (2008). And even with nothing left out, Garko has the best career offense numbers of anyone on the team right now except the Panda. You could look it up.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re waving away 2008 and the second half of 2009. That’s something like 40% of the man’s career.
From reading a few of your posts in this thread, I think you’re badly underestimating the importance of fielding. The current thinking is that the difference between a very good first baseman like Ishikawa and a poor one like Garko is 15-20 runs a year. Which, as it happens, more or less matches the difference between their career numbers as hitters.
I don’t really want either of them as a starter, but if I have to pick one, I’m going with Ishikawa.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What? What?
How am I “waving away” anything? While I said that his 2008 was sub-par for him, I also pointed out that it was nevertheless better than anything the Giants could throw up in comparison.
Am I badly underestimating fielding? No, most I read here are badly overestimating it. The difference between the best-fielding team in baseball and an average team is maybe 15 or 16 runs, and I believe I have been over-estimating it at that much. To say that one man can make a difference equal to that between the best team and an average team is so silly I don’t have words for it. All the current guff about fielding is based on measurements that are subjective in their origins and hypothetical and relative in their application, and—since it is over a quarter of a century since I invented Fielding Efficiency, later independently re-invented by Bill James as “DER”—to see such follies in this day and age is very discouraging. A fielding measure for individual men will impress me when those for all the individual men on a team can be combined in a simple way to give a team result that in fact squares up with the team-level measures that no one can reasonably dispute. The present methodologies are to make a cat laugh.
If you prefer Ishikawa over Garko, then I suspect that there is nothing whatever that I or anyone can say to you that will be relevant and meaningful to you. You and Brian Sabean, that is: soulmates.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 29, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I generally assume that a player’s performance over the last two years is more relevant than his performance in the two years before that. But we can just stipulate that Garko is a career .280/.352/442 hitter who (a) seems to be on a downward trend and (b) is about to turn 29, which actuarially speaking means he’s more likely to get worse than to get better.
As for fielding — the best defense in baseball this year is probably Seattle’s; the worst is probably Baltimore’s. The Orioles’ defense has allowed 216 more baserunners this year than the Mariners’. (I’m using hits plus reached-base-on-error minus home runs.) The O’s have had about 6% more balls in play to deal with, so let’s prorate it and call the difference 200. It’s your contention that those 200 baserunners were worth 15-16 runs?
by Evan on Sep 30, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he was a decent player in the American League, he will be the greatest player of all time in the National League.
Duh.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 28, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather have Phelps or Garko in at first. Of course, I would’ve never called up Guzman and put him on the 40 in the first place, but whatever.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we’re being too optimistic slotting Posey into #3 hole for 2010. He probably needs a couple of months of getting use to MLB pitching before he begins to flourish. He will probably go through the same progression and growth Wieters went through this year.
I am not saying Posey will not eventually hit like a 1, 2, or 3 hitter, I just don’t think it will happen until mid-2010 at the earliest. Besides, putting Posey into the #3 slot puts a lot of pressure on a young player. For example, you really saw Panda pressing in August and September, knowing that if he did not come through, the guy behind would not pick him up.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Sep 28, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posey starting the year in the 3 hole is laughable
next question
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Wait, did I just agree with my self? At least I am consistent.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’s out of the question that he could hit well enough to be a viable 3-hole hitter next season but to expect the Giants to put that much pressure on him right off the bat is unrealistic and, really, to put that much pressure on him right off the bat is probably not fair to him. I’m confident he’ll end up there by the end of the year, probably, but we shouldn’t expect him to hit higher than 6th or 7th to start the year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we are in agreeance
3 and 5 spot are for your very bestest hitters. until Gerald proves he’s one of ‘em — which he will no doubt do — he shouldn’t be there.
6/7 to start the year sounds about right.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sounds about how the DBags did it with Upton
/is too lazy to look it up
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming for a moment that he batted in a decent lineup (basically any lineup not the Giants), do you project him as a #3 hitter? I always thought he’d a better hitter from #2 or #1 spot, given his excellent OBP and bat control.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
by Tellias on Sep 28, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
project him as a 3?
absolutely.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think that he’ll hit well enough to be a #2 or #3 hitter, especially if his OBP skills from the minors carry over to the majors.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He should be the #3 hitter in Fresno for a few months, but I don’t think that will happen.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be a cold miracle if Bond could hit as well as Sanchez next season. (I think last I looked his MLE for this year, when he was fantastic, and it was still only like .685 OPS). And he would be a pretty major defensive downgrade.
That is not to say that Sanchez is necessarily worth the money he will be paid, just that in 2010 the overwhelming likelihood is that he will be significantly better at baseball than Brock Bond.
Also in general that lineup would be really terrible defensively. With that outfield in a big yard… oh boy.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/dogpile
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 28, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see Uribe being a serviceable 3B. It’s a position of weakness in the MLB, and if he can hit half-way decent he’ll be an acceptable starter (of course, this kind of thinking got a certain asshole a starting job in 2008). That doesn’t address the Renteria problem, unfortunately. It’s a tough situation, and it’s unfortunate that an idiot is forced to make these decisions. On the one hand, you want to get a bat in order to appease the fans. On the other, you have to consider Lincecum, Cain and Pablo in the immediate future. Those guys will want money; those guys deserve money. The fans will be incensed if any one of those players chooses to walk away. Well, a little.
I have dreams of Pablo being convinced not to eat seven pizzas a day and coming back in the form of Hercules, hitting 79 home runs, manning the entire infield and pitching five days a week. But I’m an optimist. I don’t deserve a job as GM. Yet this would appear to be the foundation of Sabean’s projection. It’s enough to bring a man down.
I guess what I’m getting at is that this team is not an easy hand to play. There’s a lot to consider in terms of contracts and league relativity. I’m betting that it won’t be considered, and that the chance of Bengie Molina getting a short term, multi-million dollar contract is unpleasantly high.
by Alex_Lewis on Sep 28, 2009 2:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can see Uribe being a serviceable 3B.
TWSS
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another bat in the order might be more important to appease the three guys you mention who’ll be looking for that bigger payday soon. The fans, from what I can see from half a country away on mlb.com, will show up.
by maysian on Sep 28, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you give Holliday or whomever 3/30, there’s no way you’re signing Cain, Lincecum and Pablo.
by Alex_Lewis on Sep 28, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
$10m a year for Holliday? Keep dreaming.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking more the gazelle-type CF, but that’s neither here nor there. I know it’s a gross oversimplification, but trading the entire offense en masse for the offense of a team that’s lost 103 to this point gets you somewhere around 50 more runs on the season. Part of having a chance to lock up this staff for a while has to involve changing that hideous dynamic and showing them you’re serious about getting them some run support, and in Pablo’s case someone for him to knock in more often or whose presence gets him better pitches to hit. Standing pat just increases the chance that your staff will be off to greener pastures ASAP.
by maysian on Sep 28, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just wondering
I’ve talked before about how the Giants never fire managers (they haven’t since 1985). Just now, I’m thinking: do they ever fire GMs, either? Sabean’s been here since 1997. Bob Quinn did an awful job and retired after 1996. Before him was Al Rosen, who I think stepped down following the sale to Magowan et al. Before that is before my time.
So: when did this organization last fire a GM?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hm?
When they moved to California, Chub Feeney was (though without the nominal title) the effective GM, as he had been since, I believe, pretty much right after WWII (Wikipedia says 1946). By 1969, Feeney was looking higher; he failed in a bid to become Commissioner, but did move up to President of the NL. He was in charge of the Giants for 24 years, and they weren’t too bad.
After that, it was a dismal parade, one whose caboose isn’t in sight yet.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
by owlcroft on Sep 28, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny Ramirez and Hindsight
Remember how most of us didn’t want the Giants to sign Man-Ram? If we could go in the Way Back Machine and sign him, would you guys? I think it’s likely, even with his 50 game suspension, that he could have single-handedly thrust us into a wild card spot this year. Do you think Manny Ramirez would have accounted for 6 more wins this year?
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you
by milesntrane on Sep 28, 2009 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yea but hes too much of a dirtbag to be likeable in SF i think
by NickGiantsROut on Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s just silly
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 28, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wouldn’t be likable… but winning forgives a multitude of sins.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 28, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, Manny is no Dirtbag.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Sep 28, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering he’s only been worth 2.9 WAR this season, no, I don’t.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jinx.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I’m kind of glad SF is no longer considered Steroid Central.
by Evan on Sep 28, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just wait ’til Bonds is on the HOF ballot.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Checking Fangraphs, they have him as a 2.9 WAR player this year.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think so. The web site www.fangraphs.com has Manny Ramirez listed as 2.9 wins above replacement player.
Thing C
by markdash on Sep 28, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve read that Manny’s only been good for 2.9 WAR this year, so I don’t think it would have been enough to get the Giants to the playoffs.
by taliesin on Sep 28, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
6 more wins?
Hell no.
But maybe they would’ve given Fred more time when Manny was suspended, instead of jerking him around and such.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Sep 28, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still don’t like him. If he quit on a team that won the World Series the previous season, he would quit on this team. I don’t see Manny respecting Bruce Bochy like he does Joe Torre, either.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 28, 2009 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until the data point to the contrary, I think ManRam is about 2.9, maybe 3 WAR this season.
now skeeter, he ain't hurtin' nobody.
by bondo on Sep 29, 2009 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This thread has remained rather on topic. I’m disappointed.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Sep 28, 2009 3:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What did you have for lunch?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 28, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jelly and peanut butter. not on rye bread though, whole wheat.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peanut butter and jam sandwich for me. Really tasty red nectarine jam from the neighborhood farmers’ market. mm.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 28, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs