Bruce Bochy and Buster Posey, Part XVII
by Grant Brisbee on Sep 24, 2009 12:16 AM PDT
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PrintBenito Santiago became a full-time starter for the San Diego Padres when he was only 22. He hit .300, threw dudes out from his knees, and won the Rookie of the Year award. He was the future of the Padres franchise. And the Padres finished 65-97 that year.
The backup catcher was Bruce Bochy, who was coming off a nice season as the backup to Terry Kennedy. When Kennedy was traded after the '86 season, it's doubtful that Bochy rubbed his hands together in anticipation of a new starting gig. Bochy had probably accepted his role as a backup catcher by that point. But he was absolutely glued to the bench in '87, starting only 18 games.
Bochy watched the rookie catcher allow 22 passed balls. He watched Santiago catch a sub-mediocre pitching staff. Eric Show, a fine pitcher and frequent 15-game winner, was suddenly a 16-game loser. Once Santiago learned the game, Show returned to form in 1988. Maybe those two things weren't correlated at all. But they could have been to someone sitting on the bench, watching some hotshot kid get all the press. Santiago kept getting his hits, but San Diego kept losing. The hitting from the starting middle infielders was bad -- Bocockian, even -- but the pitching was the biggest reason the Padres came close to 100 losses. The bullpen was solid, but the starters were mostly wretched.
When Ed Whitson would hang his third-best pitch in a strikeout situation and watch it get ripped for extra bases, Bochy knew that Santiago had a lot to learn about calling games. When a passed ball would rattle young pitchers like Mark Grant, Bochy would empathize. The Padres were bad the season before, so it's likely that Bochy completely understood why Santiago was out there; it's not like the team was planning on taking the NL West. But with the Padres 11-7 in games started by an experienced catcher, it must have been easy to think that the Padres were losing in no small part because of an inexperienced catcher, even if he was the Rookie of the Year.
It's a little silly to think that Bochy is psychically scarred from his last year in the majors, and now he's taking out some sort of latent hatred of rookie catchers. But I'm realizing that it's just as silly to think that Bochy isn't playing Buster Posey because he's feuding with management or trying to prove a point. It's just as silly to think Bochy is refusing to play Posey because he wants to coddle a sensitive Bengie Molina. Heck, when Molina looked tired on Tuesday night, Bochy yanked him. He didn't worry about feelings; he yanked Molina and put in Eli Whiteside.
No, Bochy isn't playing Buster Posey because he seriously thinks that of the three catchers on the roster, Posey represents the worst chance at a victory. Bochy's entire view of baseball is catchercentric. If Galileo rose from the grave to tell Bochy that baseball revolves around other elements of baseball, Bochy would laugh. It's painfully obvious, he'd think, that catching is the most important aspect of the game, so he wouldn't even bother arguing. Catchers call every pitch. They lead the team. They're more involved with the defense than any other position. So why should the most important part of the game be given to a rookie in his early 20s if the team is trying to win?
Here's the thing, though: The Giants are probably going to try to win next year. They'll make some sort of splash in the trade or free agent market to help the offense, and the pitching staff will remain mostly intact. So expectations will be higher. And if the Giants bring back Bochy, he'll probably be reluctant to start Posey. Heck, he might advocate that Posey start the year in the minors. The Giants will be trying to win, mind you. Inexperienced rookie catchers have no place on teams trying to contend. It's been almost 86 years since a team led by a rookie catcher made the playoffs. And by "86 years", I mean "one year", so you can see where this fear comes from.
This is just an unfortunate coincidence: the Giants' best position prospect of the past two decades happens to play the one position on the diamond that comes with all sorts of mystical, intangible, and overblown importance attached to it, and the Giants' manager is a high priest of that particular church. Bochy doesn't care about Posey's on-base potential, or his solid K/BB rates at every stop, or the blah blah blah that's giving him so much hype before he even starts a game. That stuff doesn't win games. Whiteside is hitting .200/.240/.278 with three walks against 28 strikeouts, but he does the stuff that wins games. Heck, the Giants are 17-12 in Whiteside starts, which can't be a fluke. I mean, it absolutely can to anyone with a sliver of objective thought in their brain, but it isn't to followers of a catchercentric dogma.
Maybe this is an overreaction. Maybe Posey will start next year, and Bochy will live with it, if not encourage it. Maybe he just thinks this season wasn't the right time to break in a new catcher. The easiest way for the Giants to improve the offense is to replace Bengie Molina's 281 on-base percentage with something better. The solution is right there. Even if Posey only matches Matt Wieters' disappointing .287/.336/.406 line, the offense will have taken a huge step forward.
In the three weeks since Posey's been called up, though, he's had three at-bats and a handful of defensive innings. This is because the manager is trying to win, and he thinks that Posey hurts the Giants' chances to win compared to other catchers, even if the alternative is a minor league journeyman who was usually one of the worst hitters at every minor league stop. I'm not sure why this view would change in the offseason. Here's hoping the Giants make the right decision for next year and beyond.
It's hard to write a post like this and not think of the end of "Casino", with Robert DeNiro's character getting his own regional talk show and using it to call out local politicians. It's funny but cringeworthy to watch DeNiro rail on the same topics over and over and over with no one listening, and I'd like to think I did just as well on both counts. I'd like to thank this poster for finding this old messageboard post, which gave me the idea for this screed.
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I'm pretty sure
I coined the phrase bocockian. No biggie.
It’s definitely been used since before you joined the site…
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Sep 24, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes
By me. I’ve been using it since he started for us a couple years back. Also of note, my fantasy baseball team at the time of coinage was “The Flying Bococks” (a registered trademark of TwoBagger INC).
I invented the English language. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
That was half-ass work.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
Butt pipe!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 24, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Smokin’ it.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait…
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
There were no staples back then! They were held together BY THE POPE.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
THE LORD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS®
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 24, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I see your Pope has a Lutheran sacramentology
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Sep 24, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
He should put a towel on.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 24, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I WUZ THE FURST TO USE LOL!! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 24, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
NOT UNTIL YOU BUY ME DINNER FIRST!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks to Satyricrash and Oldjacket!
One of the funniest subthreads in a long time. Bravo!
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 24, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
And Oakland must have...
a SacramentoLoogy
by NearestNorwich on Sep 24, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL I'M SOMBODY!!!1!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Sep 24, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
why would you be so proud
of something that is so obvious?
Maybe he works in Hollywood.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
Listen TeaBagger, if we give you an executive producer credit, will ya pipe down?
Half awake, half baked
by Giant Homer on Sep 24, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
But my pipe!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 24, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
HowTheyScored: if you are officiating and hosting the year-end McCC Awards this year...
Consider the Little Richard Award for Dubious Claiming of the Origination of Things.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 24, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying that I am nominating you...
… but I’m not exactly sure how to finish that sentence.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Sep 24, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not saying… I’m just sayin.
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
LOL FRED
I originated the alphabet!
"Vhet ere-a zee oodds Booster Pusey ifer pleys fur zee Geeunts?"
"He-a vun’t pley unteel he-a gets sume-a mejur leegooe-a ixpereeence-a."
You like confetti?
I thought of that
www.leaguelineup.com/lbucks24
by NuschlerFace on Sep 24, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz8iZgDQZW8
www.leaguelineup.com/lbucks24
by NuschlerFace on Sep 24, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
How is this Buster Posey person?? I never heard of him. I know NBA player James Posey but who this Buster person?
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
brown chicken brown cow!
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
LOL FRED
He’s alright.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Bochy plays Whiteside to boost the pitching staff. The starting pitching has been in a rutt lately and the pitchers praise Whiteside’s pitch-calling.
My guess is Bochy sees Whiteside’s value to the pitching as being more than Posey’s value to the offense. In the short term, this kind of makes sense… in the long term, not so much.
In the short term, this kind of makes sense
It makes sense from Bochy’s perspective, because he doesn’t understand the fact that nobody’s been able to find any evidence game calling ability has an effect on the actual outcome of the game…
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions
not that I agree with playing Whiteside over Posey—at all—but there is in fact evidence game calling has an effect. The problem is, the evidence is more anecdotal and comparitive experienced based, than statistical. Just because something is difficult to measure statistically does not mean it doesn’t exist!
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Sep 24, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
The world, she’s-a round, like-a you head!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Not the same token, actually: you present a question of testimony, the question I addressed is one of inferential method: different epistemological routes.
Something being widely believed is in fact, significant evidence to its being true. Of course, it in no way means that something IS true by virtue of wide belief alone. Put conversely, a rare belief is, prima facie, less likely to be true—and prima facie evidence is still evidence.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Sep 24, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
ELITIST
Now there’s a meme I haven’t seen much lately.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Didn’t that have something to do with wilriv thinking Jon Miller’s Spanish speaking was pretentious?
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Yes.
Believe the brother is just showing off.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I was joking, actually. I have some vague memory that the word “elitist” was actually in use even before Jon Miller spoke Spanish.
It’s probably a reference to how us SF people are all hoity toity.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
The air here is filled with smug
Bleeding orange and black since 1987
by TehGreekStallion on Sep 24, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I remember it starting because somebody (wilriv?) mentioned that they found Jon Miller to be somewhat elitest and unenjoyable, citing his use of Spanish in the broadcast as part of the reason he comes off as elitest.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I see this has now been found, clarified and linked below. Excellent.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, anyway, it at least became entangle with wil and Jon Miller’s elitist Spanish speaking.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Ah!
It was actually Headhunter Rollins. (He’s kicking our asses in fantasy, right now).
Wliriv joined in, though.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I was just saying at McCovey’s that I think about three people are still paying attention to fantasy. I see you’re another one!
And I passed him in the standings – for one day. :(
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I suppose finishing in first place in MCC fantasy in 2008 and second place in 2009 isn’t such a bad showing!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I would like you to explain yourself more fully
Now that I have looked up all of your $5 words in the dictionary, I can ask you a few questions.
Not the same token, actually: you present a question of testimony, the question I addressed is one of inferential method: different epistemological routes.
Isn’t anecdotal evidence just testimony?
Also, all evidence (data) should not be treated equally. To equate any person’s one-time observations vs. using years of statistical analysis would lack any sort of scientific rigor. Yes, using one’s observations when no other available data exists is certainly more evidentiary than blindly guesstimating whether pitch-calling has any value, but the evidence is still of questionable value.
Additionally, even if there were no data based on scientific observations and all we had was anecdotal evidence, that still doesn’t mean that the conclusions reached by this evidence has any real effect on actual outcomes. That is to say, Whiteside’s pitch-calling ability might be better than Posey’s but the difference is so small in comparison to the attention and perceived value that this skill-set receives.
Something being widely believed is in fact, significant evidence to its being true. Of course, it in no way means that something IS true by virtue of wide belief alone. Put conversely, a rare belief is, prima facie, less likely to be true—and prima facie evidence is still evidence.
What discipline of thinking does this come from? I am trying to match it with methodology used in the physical sciences, and it doesn’t seem to fit. I am thinking you have a background in law or philosophy. Or am I completely off-base.
Hopefully this didn’t come across flippant, I really just want to understand your arguments better. Thanks.
/autodefenestrates
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Sep 24, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
You again!
Get off my lawn!
/autodefenestrates
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Sep 24, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
anecdotal evidence may be a matter of testimony , or it may be from personal experience. Not everyone separates the two, as some see testimony to be equivalent to personal experience. Typically, though, in epistemology testimony is, to put it crudely, ‘the words of others’—which is rather clearly a different animal than personal experience. Testimony, in this sense, is also a widely underplayed part of epistemology.
For example, consider the claim that the earth is round: I certainly believe this to be the case, and in fact I believe I know it to be so: but I don’t know this empirically (at least not first hand—others might), nor do I know it strictly by reason, and my experience—which includes empirical studies—at best only suggests it is. I know it to be so on the basis that it best explains a number of phenomena (and both explanation and awareness of the phenomena itself are mostly reported to me—i mostly have access to them via imagination, and later analysis by reason). Also, it is widely held to be so by eminently respectable and trustworthy people, on the basis of theories and ideas which are respectable as well as well, and my accepting that belief from them is done on the basis of testimony, though of course other sources of knowledge are involved.
I definitely agree that not all evidence is equal. However, it is much more difficult to produce a detailed hierarchy of evidence than any of us would like it to be. But I certainly agree regarding your example.
As for your ‘additionally’: Agreed. It does seem this set, pitch calling, is being over-valued: Posey seems to be a good at it, though we don’t have much to go on, so the difference isn’t likely as significant as some seem to think. Especially when one considers that Posey would easily make up for that difference with the bat. The anecdotal evidence can be right "pitch calling makes a difference’, but it can be mis-used, or ridiculously over valued, as in the .300 hitter with little power and walks.
Keep in mind that my original comment was to
fact that nobody’s been able to find any evidence game calling ability has an effect on the actual outcome of the game
the ‘evidence’ here likely means evidence of a quantifiable sort. Now, I do think it is quantifiable, but no one has yet devised a method to measure it, and there is little wonder why: pitchfx is only now getting to the point where this is even logistically possible, and even then, once the data is compiled, sorting through all the pitcher/catcher/called pitch pairings will be a nightmare—all that before trying to figure out what a sufficient sample size is for some a measurement. My point was only: just because you can’t attach a number to it yet, doesn’t mean it isn’t not important: some people foolishly did that with defense before reliable methods were produced; now only fools will.
You’re quite on base. I have a background in both. My graduate work was in philosophy, with a lot of attention to political theory, and in particular jurisprudence.
Such a way of thinking has its merits—not least that it is fundamental to all intellectual endeavors and the actual living of live. But one has to keep in mind that prima facie beliefs are easily defeated, so one always has to consider the matter further—if it is worth it, and not everything is; I don’t need to listen intently to that crazy homeless man muttering conspiratorially to be rational in rejecting his position, I was rational in rejecting it far, far earlier on.
You’d be surprised how much of that sort of thinking you’ll see in the natural sciences, though. It is isn’t official in any way, but its sort of the elephant in the room, at times. I don’t buy Thomas Kuhn’s argument, but that it got the attention it did is telling: it wasn’t easily refuted, and that itself is a testament to the role groupthink has had in the natural sciences, despite the methodological protections the natural sciences are rightly keen on.
Not flip at all, I and I appreciate the careful reading.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Sep 24, 2009 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions
haverecords, thanks for the thorough response! I find this subject area very interesting, I have not studied epistemology, but I should probably get a better understanding of it.
Your example of the Earth being round is something I have thought of, but not in so much detail. As someone completely without faith in the religious sense, I am sometimes reminded, both in my work and daily life, that my set of knowledge is based off the work of many people, and I take their conclusions to be truth – seemingly a kind of faith. Science is kind of like building a house over many years: at some point the house is mostly built and you are doing additions and changing light fixtures, but there is that .01% place in the back of your head wondering if the foundation is going to hold…
Back to baseball (!) for a second. My personal belief is that every defensive aspect of catching (including working with pitchers here) is overblown and overemphasized. I believe that if Posey were “bad” at calling pitches, the difference between he and a catcher “good” at calling pitches would be so negligible. Some of my thought on catcher defense are here.
Anyway, good conversation. Thanks.
/autodefenestrates
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Sep 25, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, the effect is considered less distinct in the MLB since basically everyone has been through the minor league wringer and if they couldn’t call a game, they wouldn’t be in the majors.
There’s an argument to be made Posey hasn’t got enough experience to properly evaluate his game calling ability.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 24, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I believe that familiarity is a plus when it comes to catchers and pitchers working together, but at the same time, Whiteside caught Penny’s first start and Penny praised him as the best ever, even though they had never worked together before, so it isn’t required. Whiteside’s overall experience probably helped him in that scenario, however, but it isn’t as if Penny doesn’t know how to get guys out already.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I believe Downside long ago passed the point where incompetent game callers would have been weeded out. If only he could hit.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 24, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
calling the game
catchers don’t just call the game on the spot. before each series there are meetings/discussions held on how to get each guy on the opposing team out using scouting reports, etc, plus the catchers and pitchers meet to discuss these things as well before the start, as well as during the games depending on scenarios and what is or isn’t working in the pitcher’s repertoire.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Depends on whom you ask . . . .
There are conflicting studies on the subject, and questions of methodology and, above all, sample sizes. At this point, it would be safe to say that there is no definitive statistics-based answer, so one is free to follow one’s gut on the topic. My own sense of it is that calling a game—which includes pitch selection, setting the target, framing the catches, and working the umpire, among other things—is significant, sometimes quite significant. Craig Wright’s discussion (in The Diamond Appraised) remains useful reading.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I think Bochy plays Whiteside over Posey because he’s a fucking idiot.
/has given up on this season.
in the KLAW chat today...
Fred Lewis (San Francisco)
Why have the Giants given up on me as an everyday player when I’m the only guy on my team with any plate discipline and the only one besides Sandoval with an OBP over .350?
Keith Law (1:14 PM)
Because your defense has been, in their minds at least, poor. I would get that except that the Giants’ pitchers lead the NL in strikeouts, so if any team can afford to give up defense for some offense, it’s them. But then again, this is the same team that keeps playing Eli Downside over Buster Posey. They’re not that serious about winning if they keep making those decisions.
by giantdonkey on Sep 24, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I like how some people are like, “Well, Bochy likes putting his absolute best defense behind Lincecum” and it’s like LINCECUM GETS THE MOST STRIKEOUTS IN BASEBALL. If anything, you should be able to give up a little defense for offense when he’s pitching.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Look, if you didn’t have your best defense behind Lincecum, then some of those 2-1 losses could have turned into 5-1 losses. If you don’t see the problem there, I don’t know what else to say.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 24, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
obey the KLaw
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 24, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Speaking of KLAW
He tweeted this yesterday. I laughed.
I’d call Adam Dunn a gargoyle at first but gargoyles have more range.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I love KLaw. In a purely platonic baseball sort of way.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 24, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
You're gonna love this comment
Dan (Tampa)
Better prospect Strasburg or Heyward?
Keith Law
(2:22 PM)
Heyward. If I was doing a top 100 now, I’d probably go Heyward, Posey, Strasburg.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Number 2 prospect in all of baseball, folks.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
you're right
given enough PA, he won’t be a prospect anymore
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Not after they started putting a billion people in it.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
The original nWo was the best angle of all time, though.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Fa sho
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
LOL Eli Downside
—Wait, is that one of TwoBagger’s?
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
Yes!
I’m finally getting some respect around here.
Silence, TeaBagger
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Sep 24, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
btw, this is a joke. I’m not trying to start sumthin
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Sep 24, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Good
Because I actually play baseball, which means I could kick your nerd ass!
Sorry but your nerd factor goes way up for participating in a baseball blog. Even if you hit like Bonds.
/has given up on this season.
For the record, posting here is one of the least nerdy things I do. Who here wants to talk adaptive optics?
/googles adaptive optics
Seems very useful for a ball player.
You play organized ball, men’s league, etc…?
/has given up on this season.
It's mostly used for telescopes and looking inside an eye
I played a little college ball and just finished a season in the Tri-Valley MSBL 25+ league. It was amazing going from a bocockian college BA to an Pujolian one in the men’s league.
I’ve been looking at MSBL here in Phx. I’m in a men’s league right now but it’s on portable mounds and dirt infield.
I guess MSBL here plays at different fields every week. Sounds cool plus I would be a youngster in that league.
/has given up on this season.
I really enjoyed playing in the MSBL. My team was terrible but the fields were nice and the umps were pretty good. They also have tourney’s at big league ST stadiums. What age group would you play in?
Don’t know how they are split up but I’m 27. I believe there is an MSBL WS here in the fall too.
/has given up on this season.
We had a baseball team? (Class of ’01)
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
LOL FRED
Does that mean you’re old, or I’m old?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
LOL FRED
LOL BA
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 24, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I just calculated my college hitting stats, if I did it right my line was: .285/.375/.714
I averaged one HR every 7 at bats! I should have never become a pitcher.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
I was a catcher but the starting catcher was really good. I had a good arm and I’m tall (not really built like a catcher). It turned out to be a bad move because after my sophomore year the starting catcher was drafted and so we were left with freshman catchers for junior and senior years. I also hurt my arm pretty bad my last two years. So yeah, the move did not work out.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
Adaptive Optics
Invented by Horace W. Babcock. Think about it.
What about if you talk like him?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
You could look it up . . . .
As one of the Marx Brothers once asked, “Who you gonna believe? Me, or your own two eyes?” Fred Lewis looks like a fielder for whom we need the superlative of “awful”. But dang it all if it doesn’t turn out, when one looks up the numbers, that as a left fielder he is somewhere from average to a hair better than average. And that seems to be the case with at least two different fielding-rating schemes. (I looked it up at length late last night, but can’t remember which where—but I daresay it could be Googled easily enough.) I guess it’s a case of when he does screw up, he does so flagrantly and royally.
But, all that said, while he is potentially better than much of what they have now, that’s a rather left-handed compliment. For a corner outfielder, his batting is tolerable but far from what one might want. I’d say he is worth keeping as a placeholder for Thomas Neal (assuming Neal is ultimately what he looks like so far).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Be careful, sir.
The Fred Lewis wars around here have been long and bloody.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
He’s average-ish to above-average by UZR and I think Dewan’s +/-. But yeah, it’s a case where when he’s definitely had his share of screw-ups and now that’s all anyone remembers (and, now, if he doesn’t make a play on a ball, it’s automatically a play he should have made, even if it was a very difficult play that most LF can’t make).
He would be a fine placeholder for Thomas Neal, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to get that chance anymore.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I can’t wait for Neal to come up to the bigs and ride the pine for 3 years (other than to work on his excellent pinch hitting skilz)!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
goddammit he's my last hope
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Help me, Thomas Neal. You’re my only hope.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Problem is
Bochy plays the game on the defense from the start. He’s playing not to lose, instead of trying to win
Timmy is my Man-crush
by Fan from Sac on Sep 24, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Bochy invented the LLOLINEUP
Timmy is my Man-crush
by Fan from Sac on Sep 24, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
OT: F. Sanchez knew he needed knee surgery before the trade
Baggs report. Sorry if this was mentioned already.
Oh for pity's sakes.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Sep 24, 2009 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Meh
It’s just karma for the Jason Schmidt fleecing and the Matt Morris contract dump. Anyways it’s not the first time Sabes has made a bad trade.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 24, 2009 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Hopefully it’s the last.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
Sabean trades that drove me crazy
1) Jacob Cruz and Steve Reed for Shawon Dunston, Jose Mesa, and Alvin Morman
2) Bill Mueller for Tim Worrell
3) Russ Ortiz for Damian Moss and Merkin Valdez
4) Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boff Bonser for AJ Pierzynski
5) Carlos Villanueva and Glenn Woolard for Leo Estrella and Wayne Franklin
6) Felix Rodriguez for Ricky Ledee and Alfredo Simon
7) Jerome Williams and David Aardsma for LaTroy Hawkins
8) Jeremy Accardo for Shea Hillenbrand and Vinnie Chulk
9) Shairon Martis for Mike Stanton
10) Scott Barnes for Ryan Garko
11) Tim Alerson for Freddy Sanchez
Sigh.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Also, looking at the trades Sabean has made
I totally forgot we ever had John Vander Wal.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
My only memory of him as a Giant is that one time him and Schmidt hit back-to-back home runs.
"Vhet ere-a zee oodds Booster Pusey ifer pleys fur zee Geeunts?"
"He-a vun’t pley unteel he-a gets sume-a mejur leegooe-a ixpereeence-a."
is that THE King Felix at #6?
"Early to bed, early to rise, makes a woman healthy, wealthy, and wise. That's why you all are wiser than me. It's cloudydays."
I thought King Felix was Felix Hernandez.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
no. that’s Felix No Slider Rodriguez
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Which one of these truly makes you hate him so much? No 4 is the famous one but really was it so bad? AJ was coming off two good years, and his late one was exceptional for a catcher and what we might hope from Buster Posey. Boof and Francisco are essentially non factors and while Joe Nathan is amazing, if AJ had performed like he had the two previous seasons the trade would have seemed like a slight win for the Twins, but not a crazy massive rape like its put out to be.
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
Did I say I “hate him so much?” I just said he’s made a number of trades that drove me crazy.
FWIW, I hate the Pierzynski trade from the moment it was made. I don’t think he’s a great comparison for Posey, because Posey has much better plate discipline and it seems like he’ll be better defensively as well.
Liriano’s one goo year contributed about 10,000 times more value to the Twins than we got from Pierzynski. Hell, they probably even got more value out of Bonser.
Also:
if AJ had performed like he had the two previous seasons the trade would have seemed like a slight win for the Twins, but not a crazy massive rape like its put out to be.
That’s a pretty silly argument. If something that didn’t happen did happen, the trade would only be sort of bad? Okay. If Ray Sadecki had ha a few more good seasons with the Giants, that wouln’t have looked so bad either.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Before the trade happened AJ hit .312/.360/.464
that is a fantastic offensive season for anyone, especially a catcher. I know it obviously didn’t work out but that is a good target to trade for. I know in hindsight it looks awful, and you never liked it, but at the time it was defensible.
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
AJ had a .331 BABIP that season… if you look at his career statistical record, he put up BABIPs of .320-340 pretty consistently as a Twin and much lower OBPs (including several under .300) away from them… looking at it now, I have to wonder if the way he hit as a Twin was partially thanks to the Metrodome.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
that seems like it could be a possibility, dude hit doubles too in the metrodome
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
uh that OBP should be BABIP
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
YES IT WAS SO BAD
YES IT WAS SO BAD.
Value each team got out of each player:
Nathan: 15.0 WAR
Liriano: 7.4 WAR
Bonser: 4.1 WAR
Total: 26.5 WAR
Pierzynski: 2.0 WAR
Total: 2.0 WAR
Owch.
Hell, AJ hasn’t even been worth that many WAR in his CAREER.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Baggs:
Sanchez said he knew he needed surgery before the Giants traded for him.
If you didn’t like the trade then, there’s no way you like it now.
I don’t have a problem with sacrificing pitching prospect Tim Alderson. The Giants are seldom wrong in evaluating their own pitching prospects, so I’ll trust their assessment on Alderson.
But the money is another thing. I was mystified then, and I’m mystified now, that the Giants didn’t get the Pirates to kick in any money in the deal — even a little bit to recoup Alderson’s $1.29 million signing bonus. The Twins wanted Sanchez, too, so perhaps taking the rest of Sanchez’s $6.1 million salary was a measure they had to take. We can’t know for certain, I suppose.
My guess is that Sanchez returns to the Giants on a two-year, $10 million contract – which, ironically, is what the Pirates offered him to stay before they traded him.
When a trade goes down, isn’t there any responsibility on the part of the player to be completely forthcoming with how he feels physically? I blame the Giants for not doing their due diligence, apparently, but if Franchez didn’t say anything about his knee just because he wanted to get the hell out of Pittsburgh, that’s pretty lame.
"If you want to walk, watch a mailman."--Shawon Dunston
"If you want to bunt, bake a cake."--Bruce Bochy
I don’t have a problem with sacrificing pitching prospect Tim Alderson. The Giants are seldom wrong in evaluating their own pitching prospects, so I’ll trust their assessment on Alderson.
This is silly though… it’s not like they were like, “Oh, you want Alderson? Go ahead, take him! No really, take him!” It sounds like they were pretty reluctant to include him.
Apparently Sanchez being injured and missing a ton of games was what it took to convince Sabean, of course, but…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It was more like, “Please take Alderson. Please, we’ll do anything…” I would know, I was there
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Sep 24, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
2/10 is what I thought it might be in Goofus’ Sanchez thread.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I would hope any Franchez contract would be incentive-laden with relation to plate appearances and/or starts, maybe even a club option on the second year if it’s a two-year deal. Given what he’s done since he got here, is Freddy really in any position to complain if the Giants offer such a contract?
"If you want to walk, watch a mailman."--Shawon Dunston
"If you want to bunt, bake a cake."--Bruce Bochy
I guess the trouble is that if he doesn’t like that, he knows he can just accept arbitration later (and the Giants had BETTER offer him arbitration) and probably get $6-7 million.
That said, I think the Giants have the upper hand in these negotiations. If they end up giving him anything more than like 2/10, then Sabean will have been taken to the cleaners again.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
You really think he would get that much in arbitration? Because he’s making $6.1M this year, and he’s near the bottom of the pack of qualified 2B in R, RBI, and HR. He’s in the upper half in AVG, but also has barely enough PAs to qualify, so he’s near the bottom in that, too. I thought these were the principal things they looked at in arb (misguided though they may be), so I would think $6M would be at the very top of what he could expect to get in arbitration. I would think more like $4-5M would be the expectation.
If that’s the case, then arbitration becomes a much more palatable option (and one that works in the Giants’ favor). He was an All-Star this year though, so I guess he could argue, “Well, I made 6.1 million last year and I was an All Star, clearly I should get as much or more next year.”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
The Giants are seldom wrong in evaluating their own pitching prospects
Is this even true? Sabean has traded a bunch of young pitchers who never made it, but then most young pitchers never make it. On the other hand, you’ve got a couple of all-stars in Foulke and Nathan, plus a bunch of other useful pitches in Howry, Liriano, Bonser, Linebrink, Villanueva, and probably some others I’ve forgotten.
Their track record of pitching prospect in trades are excellent. Remember, we have shipped tons and tons of prospects out.
Think Ryan Vogelsong, Kurt Ainsworth, Liriano (injury risk), and even in the case of the Foulke trade, 6 players went over to the whitesox, only one panned out.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Well, Howry turned out pretty solid, too.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Yes, this is the conventional wisdom. But as I said, MOST pitching prospects don’t pan out. Have the ones the Giants traded panned out at a significantly lower rate than normal?
If you had the data, you could compare zips or pecota projections for all these pitchers collectively with how they actually turned out. I suspect it would be pretty close, and we’d learn that the Giants’ brilliance in evaluating their own pitching prospects is mostly just the law of averages.
Grilli and Bump (For Livan)
Joe Fontenot (For Nen)
Yorvit and Foppert (For Winn)
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
We also gave up noted superstars Mike Villano and Mike Pageler for Nen.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
you’re right. Villano was a prospect at one time – he was #4 on BA’s Giants prospect list when we traded him. I don’t think Pageler was ever considered much of a prospect.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Like I said, I’m holding out for some systematic measurement rather than just anecdotal evidence.
Foppert, by the way, is a strong argument the Giants ARE wrong in evaluating their own prospects. They should have traded him a couple of years before they did.
Can't fault the Giants for Foppert trade
I give little credit to anything Sabean has done since the Schmidt trade, but that trade was okay. Foppert was their best prospect this side of Lincecum going into his rookie season, but something wasn’t right with his arm all of that season, when he lost 5 MPH off his fastball. From then on, there was never a good time to trade him. Trade worked out really well, in the short run, as Winn went on a tear. Subsequent contract to Winn screwed things up.
Also, seems like you actually agree with Bags statement that the “Giants have seldom made mistakes trading their prospects”. You just don’t seem sure its appreciably better than other teams’ records.
I agree with Baggs’ statement and actually think the odds are in their favor that Alderson does not come back to bite them.
Finally, the best thing Sabean has done in years is not trade Lincecum, Cain, Wilson and J. Sanchez, as much of a no brainer as that might be.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 24, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I honestly don’t care if Alderson never makes the major leagues – I still think, even if his reputation wasn’t as good as it once was, the Giants could have gotten a whole lot more out of that trade chip. I strongly doubt that Freddy Sanchez was as good as they could have gotten for him (especially if he was included in a larger package for a better player.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
IAWJP
And not because I’m afraid of her. Not this time.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
Yeah, if we’d given up Alderson but the Pirates had, like, picked up Sanchez’s whole salary or something, that’s one thing. But the fact that we’re on the hook for everything AND we gave up a pretty damn good prospect AND Sanchez had an injury before the trade just boggles my mind.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Not a good trade
Hated the Sanchez trade at the time. Remember you did as well, and we hate it more now.
Bags gets it right. $4million given up for Alderson’s bonus, Sancez’s pro-rated 2009 salary and now the 2010 option buy out. My point in disliking the trade was more about Sanchez than Alderson. Only a career .325 wOBA, is playing worse than that now, and he was replacing Uribe in the line-up, not Burliss. Plus, if Sabean sticks around it meant/means an almost certain over priced future Sanchez contract.
And while I don’t think its really likely that Alderson comes back to bite us, why give him up if you don’t have to?
Agreed with you on the trade.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 24, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually liked the idea of getting Sanchez at the time – he has been a very good player when you take position and defense into account. I was thrilled when it was sounding like some fungible minor league part was going to be the centerpiece of the deal. But to give up Alderson for him when it was pretty clear that he was injured was really dumb.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Oh
It was the Alderson part that I remembered. I thought this site was surprisingly sold on Sanchez at the time; I guess you were too. But it would cost us $4 million minimum, for a minimal upside. $4 million we could have put to a better player. Theoretically anyhow.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 24, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, I believed the Giants medical staff when they cleared him (lol me) and I didn’t think it was going to cost Alderson.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
And
I don’t think saying Sanchez was minimal upside is very fair. At the time, Giants second basemen collectively had put up something like a .270 wOBA. Sanchez at .325 represents a substantial upgrade. Sanchez at the .345-.350 or so he was at when the trade first started coming up even moreso.
Of course, even that end of the trade hasn’t worked out. Sanchez has put up a .274 wOBA as a Giant! /cry
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Yes
But Uribe was hitting well at the time and was not resposible for most of that poor 2nd base production. I just didn’t see the Sanchez acquisition as much of an upside, but one with with a long term cost, aside from Alderson. I saw the cost as the $4 million and the scary future Sabean contract.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 24, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, Bill James 101
Sanchez will always be overrated, particularly to old schoolers like Sabean, because so much of his value derives from BA.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 24, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m agreeing only out of fear.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 24, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Focus, focus . . . .
I think the key point here is not the Giants’ evaluation of Alderson, but other teams’ evaluations of Alderson, by which I mean that whatever his actual upside, he was widely perceived elsewhere as having great value. So the issue is whether the Giants should have gotten something more for him than an older, severely over-rated, probably damaged player. (Of course, by the Giants’ old-fashioned criteria, a .300 average makes him a superhero, regardless.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Thanks, my wounds needed to be salted
Remember, we have shipped tons and tons of prospects out.
Interestingly, I’d like to forget that if you don’t mind.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL "Due Diligence"
Sabean’s work at this year’s trade deadline further highlights and underscores his diminished capacity as GM, and how far he has fallen in his effectiveness in this role. The Giants will never achieve what should be their ultimate objective (a World Series title) without someone exceptional in the GM’s chair. Clearly, “exceptional” is not the word to describe Brian Sabean. If winning a championship is truly the primary objective of the Giants’ organization, they absolutely must find a GM with the intellect and energy to lead the way in that effort.
I think we’re going to find out a lot this off-season about Bill Neukom as lead owner of the Giants. Re-signing Sabean for another 2-3 years just seems unthinkable.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
Due diligence
So if Sanchez’s knee was hurt, did Sabean not kick enough tires, or did Sanchez kick too many.
/autodefenestrates
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Sep 24, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabes kicked Sanchez’s knee too many times.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
OH MY GOD LOLOLOL
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I really don’t want to gloat about being right about his knee, but I was.
Goddamn it.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 24, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t usually get to gloat, but a while back, soon after the deal, when it looked like his knee was okay, I remember saying “The thing that worries me is his knee”, and getting some folks agreeing with me.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
You were, of course, right.
:(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
well he should be
he coined knee injuries.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
If the Giants didn’t know about this, wouldn’t this count as damaged goods and entitle the Giants to compensation?
If they did know this and made the trade anyway, fuck my life.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I mean, they said their medical guys checked him out… they must have known about it.
Ugh, I don’t know how he could have gotten so thoroughly fleeced. Trading Alderson for a healthy Freddy Sanchez – that’s debatable but there’s certainly a good argument for doing it, especially this year.
Trading him for one who has a fucked up knee and will need surgery after the season? WTF??? He was not the only second baseman out there!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
At the time of the trade there was a lot of “The Giants’ medical staff gave him a thorough examination!!! Do you think you know better than they do?” which bugged the hell out of me. I mean, they’re doctors, not all-knowing seers, Jim.
The Giants’ medical staff gave him a thorough examination
“Turn your head and cough.”
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
I’m a skeptic. I think the medical staff did examine him “thoroughly”, and missed it.
Just like they missed Randy’s torn shoulder.
Gary Darling, go DIAFF.
by The Enchanter on Sep 24, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Then there is Noah’s claims of misdiagnosed injuries.
by chilibean_3 on Sep 24, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't worry, I see this all the time
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabean quote
From Baggs’ game story:
But Sabean did not express regret over the deal.
…
“You can’t deny that Freddy, when he’s been out there, has been every bit a No. 2 hitter that we didn’t have, and an All-Star second baseman,” Sabean said.
Sanchez with the Giants: .284/.295/.324 in 107 PAs; 2 (!) BBs and 2 XBHs. Yeah, he’s been great when he’s been out there.
Well, to be fair, he has usually (always?) batted 2nd since he’s been with the Giants, and he was on the All-Star team (making him indisputably an All-Star), so I guess you really can’t deny it. It’s, like, tautological or something.
He’s hit .284, therefore, he’s been good.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Exactly
He’s been hitting .284 while batting 2nd. His .295 OBP and .325 SLG is literally inconsequential to Sabean.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 24, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
has been every bit a No. 2 hitter
I agree.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
That’s the emptiest .284 batting average I have ever seen.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
You are in denial in spite of direct orders.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Gotta break out Kim Batiste
1993, Phillies: .282 / .298 / .436, 29 K, 3 BB, 161 PA.
Wow, Freddy Sanchez really was worse than that.
/sobs
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
His line with the Giants
.208 / .235 / .323. 33 K and 5 BB in 130 PA. 11 errors in 25 games at third base.
/sobs again
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
clutch bunts
well worth the trade
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
i think Bochy has a general distrust of rookies and not rookie catchers in particular. But interesting theory.
I would say
that he has a general distrust of rookies with a special distrust of rookie catchers (but not so much rookie pitchers, not when they have those veteran catchers to guide them through their pitches).
The baseball Satanist
I think he’s just an idiot and doesn’t know what attributes of a baseball player most help win baseball games.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions
"Maybe Posey will start next year, and Bochy will live with it . . . ."
The shuddersome thing is the implication that Bochy will be managing next year, which in turn implies that Sabean will also be back.
While there has been quite a bit of raucous jeering at those two, the fact remains that even in a considered, sober evaluation, they plainly neither of them have any least idea of what elements actually go into winning baseball games. One wonders what it would take to get that simple message through to the new ownership. (Indeed, one has to suppose that if they haven’t clearly grasped that point by now, then the answer is “nothing will”.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
The answer is “nothing will” as they can’t see the forest for the trees. Sabean and Bochy willl both be back with multi-year contracts – Bochy is being considered for MANAGER OF THE YEAR FOR FUCK’S SAKE – and why? Because this team wasn’t expected to be this good. This team won despite what Bochy did from the bench, but he’s going to get the credit.
A fucking shame, really.
Compared to what?
Hasn’t anybody noticed that the Giants’ “great” season—a little over .500 ball—is “great” only because this was a rather dreadful year in the NL? In an ordinary year, they’d have been an ordinary, no-’count nothing, no story, no race, nada.
But Baggerly, at least, is saying that it looks strong for ownership to bring back Sabean. My, oh my.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
This hasn’t been a particularly unusual season in terms of NL records. Normally the WC team wins about 92 games, which is right around what the Rockies will get (barring a major swoon).
A lot of times, people will say this sort of thing when the “typical” good teams are having an off year. The Mets had injuries, the Braves were merely good, the Cubs sucked.
No one expected anything out of the west this season and they ended up being the best division in the NL. Therefore, the NL is having a “bad” year.
I’m not saying it is right (In fact, I think it is bullshit), but that is typically how this opinion comes about.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Just so.
But there isn’t much competition to the Rockies. Look at the runner-up teams in the other divisions: Atlanta and Florida at maybe 87 wins, Chicago at maybe 84. That’s how the G’s maybe 87 wins looks so competitive. (And the Giants are over their heads: their quality of play is more like 82 wins, the difference being, in essence, sheer luck.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
so what is it going to take
to get both Bochy and Sabes fired???
NUKEM, your thoughts.
by TimLaser and MattyC on Sep 24, 2009 2:39 AM PDT reply actions
But you never know . . . .
I doubt that Mr. Neukom reads these posts. (Were I he, I would, not necessarily for advice, but for a reading on how the prevailing winds are blowing on the Fannic Sea.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Hypothesis: Bruche Bochy knows very little about offensive baseball.
Data points A-C: the 2007-2009 San Francisco Giants. They’re GREAT!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Actually, his variety of baseball offends me quite effectively!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
I wonder if Bochy and Don Nelson hang out in Hawaii and smoke cigars, wring their hands and cackle maniacally while they plot benching their rookies. And by “I wonder if” I mean, ’isn’t it creepy that…’
Except Don Nelson’s history of benching rookies is mostly a media fabrication. Don Nelson knows what wins basketball games. Bochy does not know what wins baseball games.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions
?
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Sep 24, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
N’mind, found it.
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Sep 24, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
The thing is
I wouldn’t be surprised if Sabean was sympathetic to this. He also seems to come from the school of thought that veterans have some sort of aura about them that gives them an edge over younger players. This seems especially true at catcher, where he decided to trade for a veteran catcher rather than let Torrealba have the starting spot.
The baseball Satanist
We just have to hope that Neukom doesn’t share the same belief. In his interviews he’s constantly talking of the farm system and developing players. I hope he’s just as disappointed with the lineup that’s being sent out there everyday. And I hope he wants a GM that doesn’t block young players with redundant acquisitions.
Hope.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
Don’t you think someone would notice, in the org, how absolutely bonkers fans get when a homegrown player comes up and plays well? I mean, some of the free agents on the team are popular enough but it’s nothing compared to how wild people get for Pablo Sandoval or Tim Lincecum. Heck, I think fans have even gotten starry-eyed over Eugenio Velez to a much larger extent than you would expect.
Of course, it doesn’t always work (see: Lewis, Fred; Frandsen, Kevin) but, really, if a young guy comes up from the farm and plays well, it sure seems to me like fans take to that a whole lot more enthusiastically than they do if the team signs a free agent who plays well (or, in the Giants case, DOESN’T play well.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Team Building 101 says if you start managing a team based on the fans you will sit with them sooner than later.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
Well, isn’t part of their reasoning right now that they don’t want to play homegrown players because the fans won’t want to see them sit guys like Molina, Renteria, etc for prospects in a playoff race? They think they’re managing the team based on the fans right now and it’s not working.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Screw auras
Experience can be both good and bad. People who regard experience as inherent wisdom are foolish.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
there is something to be said for experience in the major leagues. It has value, particularly in learning the league and learning how to adjust to familiar competitors and situations. Unfortunately, it doesn’t necessarily trump ability and skills and the Giants FO has more often put too much emphasis on experience rather than skills. I really wouldn’t mind more 26 or 27 year old veterans who had been in the league for 4 or 5 seasons being on the team than guys who are over 35 who’ve been around for 10. the Giants FO doesn’t seem to make those distinctions and the default mindset is that veteran = better, which obviously isn’t so.
At some point, however, the value of the experience is diminished by the loss of ability. If you can’t catch up to the fastball, it doesn’t really matter that you know it’s coming.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
What I found when I Googled "Benito Santiago"
Rich Aurilia pounds his second home run of the night, a two-run blast in the fifth inning that gives the Giants a 3-0 lead. Aurilia has four homers in the postseason, so far. You reading this in the future must surely be staring in disbelief.
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 24, 2009 6:42 AM PDT reply actions
Aurilia was so sick, which makes the fact that they’re still dragging around his lifeless corpse in 2009 all the more sickening.
Thing C
True, but I’m hoping to see a big round of applause when he comes out of the final game of the season.
by troymccluresf on Sep 24, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
He still gets nice ovation whenever he comes up to bat.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
frankly, I’m surprised he lasted the entire season.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 24, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
shirley, you can't be serious
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Kind of like Valhalla
but for heroes with toe rot and torn menisci.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Bochy is totally going to kick your ass now
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 7:42 AM PDT reply actions
Maybe this is an overreaction. Maybe Posey will start next year, and Bochy will live with it, if not encourage it. Maybe he just thinks this season wasn’t the right time to break in a new catcher. The easiest way for the Giants to improve the offense is to replace Bengie Molina’s 281 on-base percentage with something better. The solution is right there. Even if Posey only matches Matt Wieters’ disappointing .287/.336/.406 line, the offense will have taken a huge step forward.
A HARROWING GLIMPSE INTO A POST-APOCALYPTIC FUTURE
This thriller is well-crafted, with a ne’er-do-well villain plotting to undermine the plucky protagonists. Author Grant keeps the tension high throughout, occasionally dabbling in the realm of fantasy, but keeping the general tone anchored firmly in reality.
4/5 stars
Thing C
Even if Posey only matches Matt Wieters’ disappointing .287/.336/.406 line, the offense will have taken a huge step forward.
Sigh, so sad, considering that will be replacing out cleanup hitter…
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I laughed, I cried
the must read of the off-season
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You know Grant, I don't know how you can write stuff like that
without asking Bochy first.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The funny thing, of course, is that we’re apparently playing Bengie Molina and Eli Whiteside because our pitchers are so braindead that if someone other than those two catches them, they won’t remember which pitches they can throw and won’t be able to tell their ass from their armpit. And this is supposed to be one of the best pitching staffs in the majors…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Buster Posey: What’s the sign for a fastball again? Two fingers? And if I waggle my junk that means low and away? Here’s hoping.
/Buster Posey puts down two fingers and waggles his junk.
Tim Lincecum: Did he just put down the signal for a… 6 seam changeup? Man, I didn’t even know I could throw one of those! This is gonna be awesome!
/Tim Lincecum strikes out batter.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
BREAKING NEWS
BUSTER POSEY IS SO AMAZING THAT HE CAN MAKE HIS PITCHERS THROW PITCHES THAT DON’T EXIST.
GIANTS BRAS1
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
This scenario changes rather radically when you substitute in another pitcher.
Buster Posey: What’s the sign for a fastball again? Two fingers? And if I waggle my junk that means low and away? Here’s hoping.
/Buster Posey puts down two fingers and waggles his junk.
Ryan Sadowski: Did he just put down the signal for a… spoogeball? Well, that’s kind of gross, but I guess it’ll probably add another two to three inches drop on my curveball… here goes!
/Ryan Sadowski throws ball to backstop and gets a mound visit from the authorities
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let's take another look at this scenario
We have to assume that Sadowski either
- thought it possible that Posey might call for a spoogeball before the game started and concealed it somewhere on his person just in case.
- Or completely caught off guard by the apparent spoogeball signal, whipped out his junk and managed to deposit the substnce on the ball in the normal amount of time between pitches.
The first possibility seems the most likely. I can’t see how someone wouldn’t try to interrupt Sadowski if he actually unleashed the spooge applicator on the mound in the middle of a game in front of 30,000+ fans.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
“What’s that on your chest?”
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
TWSS
overkill here, but I can’t help myself
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Can we all agree that Ryan Sadowski is one sick bastard.
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 24, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
“you need to put a towel on”
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
LOL FRED
by ringleader3 on Sep 24, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
LOL
thank you
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
And then he turned on you with the spoogeball thing.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
NEXT ON ESPN: SPOOGE GEMS!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Pity?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
The Rockers didn't want him.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 24, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
But, I thought we won last night because of Whiteside?
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 24, 2009 9:06 AM PDT reply actions
The actual answer is just as improbable!
Jazz Hands 3
Lolbacks 2
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 24, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Remember it's not just Bochy
Sabean has a huge veteran catcher fetish himself. That’s why he traded the farm for A.J. and signed Bengie. It may also be why he chose Bochy – the ex catcher – to manage the team. Hopefully Bochy and Sabean will be gone next year and the discussion will be moot. Anyway, Fantastic post. TYVM. You make me a more knowledgeable and thus better fan.
Giant season effort summary:
Was just enough ensure the Dodgers won the division.
Was just little enough to ensure the Giants lost the wild card.
Don’t forget Matheny!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Matheny
I liked the guy, but his signing.
Perfect alignment of veteran intangibleness, pitch calling skillz and Sabean’s crazy roster construction. Wasn’t this $9MM/yr?
The Cardinals fell apart without him
torrealba would’ve been fine, and the money could have been used wasted elsewhere
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Sep 24, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
absolutely he would have been fine
This move killed me.
I’m angry all over again…off to go look at b-ref for stats to make this righteous anger.
Please provide scouting reports, someone, so I don’t make a biased nerd report.
actually
he’d STILL be fine, considering he seems to be headed for the playoffs along with Pedro Feliz, Tyler Walker, and…. oh, I don’t really keep track anymore. Good thing the Yankees got rid of Tomko or he’d be going too.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but he’s going as a backup catcher, which is pretty much what he’s been his whole career, except 2007 when Iannetta wasn’t ready yet. We wouldn’t be better off with Torrealba these last 3 years as our starting catcher, as his production doesn’t compare well to Molina’s.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
I was more mad that Torrealba was about as good as Matheny, but at a fraction of the price, that could be used else where.
absolutely
considering the last two iterations each lost 90 games, maybe an alternate investment would have been wiser. And if Yorvit wouldn’t have batted 4th all year… anyway, they just would’ve wasted the money, and it’s not mine.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Sep 24, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Matt Wieters is apparently up to .290/.340/.417 now…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
But, how is his pitch calling?
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 24, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Completely OT (for jponry and other Grizzly Bear fans)
Have you heard this? A friend forwarded it to me yesterday and I’ve listened to the song probably 30 times since then. Can’t believe how great they sound with one of the founding fathers of Yacht Rock on lead vocals.
"If you want to walk, watch a mailman."--Shawon Dunston
"If you want to bunt, bake a cake."--Bruce Bochy
lol yes
So bizarre but it sounds really good once you get used to it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I didn’t think that song could get better. Or any song could be better. But it is!
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Sep 24, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Looks like some organizations have the balls to do what we should do with Aaron Rowand…
Scott Bordow of the East Valley Tribune suspects that the Diamondbacks will consider cutting ties with Eric Byrnes this offseason and would be willing to eat the final year of his three-year, $30MM contract.
Arizona’s outfield is set for 2010, and it doesn’t include the injury-plagued Byrnes. Conor Jackson will start in left field, Chris Young is expected to start in center and Justin Upton will play right. Gerardo Parra, after a fine rookie campaign in 2009, will operate as the fourth outfielder but should find regular playing time.
D’Backs GM Josh Byrnes will certainly try to work out a trade before simply releasing the 33-year-old outfielder, who has played just 76 games this year due to a fractured hand, but it might be hard to find a team willing to take on his salary. “The Diamondbacks will take a lot of grief if they release Byrnes,” concludes Bordow. “But it would be the right thing to do.”
http://valleysports.freedomblogging.com/2009/09/23/d-backs-could-cut-ties-with-eric-byrnes/
Rowand hasn’t played nearly poor enough to warrant being outright cut. And he’s got three years left on his deal… it would be fucking stupid to just release him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Just to illustrate
Byrnes 08-09: -0.7 WAR, 129 games played, .211/.266/.365
Rowand 08-09: 3.3 WAR, 289 games played, .268/.330/.419
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Right. Rowand is a decent player. He probably won’t be worth his money over the length of his contract, but you only cut guys if they aren’t even worth the roster spot.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
That didn’t turn out to be such a great idea for the Tigers, did it? They’ve gotten a .708 OPS from their DHs this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
The Tigers gave their 1st round pick 6 Mil, vests Magglio’s 18M option, and cut Gary Sheffield.
That might be worse than Brian Sabean.
Speaking of that…
kenny williams
jp richardi
dave dombrowski
mark shapiro
omar minaya
ed wade
dayton moore
jim hendry
I’d say these guys are worse than Sabean. That still doesn’t put Sabean in the top half, btw, but if we had one of the guys above I’d seriously punch a hole in the wall.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Dombrowski had a couple good years turning the Tigers from the 119 loss team to a more competitive team, but he’s been pretty terrible the last few years.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Williams can be faulted for the Rios debacle, but other than that he’s been OK; the ChiSox are a pretty good team IMO
Riccardi should not be employed after Halladay’s trade fell apart
Dombrowski again is a decent GM; the Tigers have made some good signings/trades (Edwin Jackson anyone?) and some bad ones
Shapiro’s trades this year have been iffy, but maybe they work out; at least he figured out early on that they weren’t going to contend and picked up something for Lee and Martinez
Minaya shouldn’t be faulted at all; that team has been horribly unlucky with injuries
Wade likely shouldn’t be back; the Astros have a $100M+ payroll and aren’t sniffing the playoffs.
Moore has made some questionable moves, but he seems to be building towards something, and now that he’s extended through 2014 he can plan things out.
Except for the Bradley and Soriano contracts, Hendry’s been fine (and in all fairness, both of those deals were good ideas at the time).
Honestly, the only guys on this list I wouldn’t want over Sabean are Williams, Riccardi, Wade, and MAYBE Shapiro.
Minaya shouldn’t be faulted at all; that team has been horribly unlucky with injuries
Oliver Perez
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Dayton Moore is horrible. You’re giving him way too much credit. The dude traded for Yunesky Betancourt, ferchissake.
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
Moore is the worst GM I’ve ever seen. It would be like Brian Sabean would act if there was nobody out there to criticize the stupid shit he does.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Riccardi should not be employed after Halladay’s trade fell apart
Seeing the prospects that the Cleveland got and how they are holding up, it seems like it was wise to hold onto Holliday. However the Wells contract should have ended JP’s career
Except for the Bradley and Soriano contracts, Hendry’s been fine (and in all fairness, both of those deals were good ideas at the time)
No
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 24, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Saying Kenny Williams is a good GM because the White Sox are a solid team is like Sabean is a good GM because the Giants were good in, say, 2003. This is the same guy who once traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik – when Podsednik was coming off a season where his value was -10.3 hitting and -0.6 fielding, even.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
Eh, I think Kenny is a pretty good GM. He gets a lot of shit for his bad moves and very little credit for his good ones (and he has made quite a few good ones)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
kenny williams raped his farm system to get locked into a 18M / year contract for Peavy. Then took on Alex Rios contract for no particular reason whatsoever.
He and Richardi are the two worst GM in baseball, in my estimation, and are polar opposites. Kenny Williams is willing to take any and all risks, Richardi is super conservative and will go the safe route every single time, to a fault.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Vernon Wells 7years/$126M (2008-1408:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M
BJ Ryan 2009: 10,000,000 2010: $10M
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 24, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Those were bad moves but how about…
- getting John Danks and Gavin Floyd for practically nothing
- picking up Bobby Jenks off the scrapheap and giving him the closer job
- Carlos Quentin trade
- signing Alexei Ramirez
- The Jermaine Dye contract has been very good for them, as well as AJP
- the Jim Thome trade has been very good for them as well
- picking up Jose Contreras from the Yankees and then re-signing him – not a slam dunk every year but he got some very useful seasons out of him.
- calling up Gordon Beckham IN A PLAYOFF RACE OMG and letting him play
To call him the WORST GM IN BASEBALL when he’s made that many pretty damn good moves is a ridiculous overstatement. Especially when clowns like Dayton Moore exist.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Like I said, he is the polar opposite of Richardi. Richardi = OMG I have a semi good player must keep at all costs. SIGN LONG TERM DEAL NAO.
Kenny Williams = I’ll trade anybody and everybody on the roster for anything and everything, I’ll take a chance on anything out there. Half of my stuff will work out, the other half wont but I’ll look brilliant and stupid at the same time.
That kind of fluctuation in the franchise is horrible IMO, and it makes it very difficult.
(ps, their farm system is garbage right now. after the peavy trade and beckham promotion, they have nothing. Absolutely nothing. They are astros level)
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
BTW
It’s Ricciardi.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I scored great on my verbal GRE. Whoo!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
How is the GRE, I have to take that in addition to other test now for dual degrees
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 24, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Depends on your strengths. I found the analogies predictably assy, but the written section is really easy if you go in with a basic high school “5 paragraph essay” plan. The math is completely person-dependent. If you know your algebra inside and out and still remember some of the other pre-calc stuff, you should be fine.
It’s definitely worth studying for, though. Doing well is as much about knowing how the test and the test questions work as it actually is about being skilled at math and language things.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Thats true for every test. I totally bombed my first attempt at the MCAT’s b/c I was unprepared for the computer testing style.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 24, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s gotten the White Sox one WS, one other division title and several other years over .500 so far, so…
He’s not a perfect GM because yeah, he does make some pretty colossally stupid mistakes at times, but he’s done far too many good things as well to be THE WORST GM IN BASEBALL.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I’ll give you that. I just think he is give so much to work with, and he wants to prove he is smarter than everybody else by doing crazy ass shit.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I think he’s still got a chip on his shoulder from being portrayed as a dumbass in Moneyball, tbh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I think that’s where I get my influence from. I have an A’s fan friend that has close ties with the A’s front office (mom works with Beane and he often gets to watch games in Beane’s box). He talks about how everyone thinks JP and Kenny are complete idiots all the time.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I don’t think he’s the worst GM in baseball – I think he’s made some good moves and some really bad moves. He’s kind of like Sabean in that respect.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
I was responding to jctgamer there.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Williams seems like the definition of an average GM.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
I can't hold Sabean responsible for no '02 WS title.
If you think that there’s some six degrees of separation thing that works for that – feel freely , I love a good story!
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 24, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Amidst all the GM talk and KLAW chat
It got me wondering….
What if KLAW took over for Sabean next year? Would that be an upgrade? What do you think he would do? Would you like that to happen?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
At the very least, we’d get some good press quotes.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
The old problem.
“The good is the enemy of the best.” (Well, that’s not exact, but it fits the need.) Rowand is “a decent player”—but you don’t win championships with “decent” players. His overall worth is not significantly different from what one can obtain by the boxcar-load. His career results (especially if one somewhat discounts the Philadelphia park-affected years) are tolerable, not trashy, but that doesn’t butter any parsnips if one wants a solid team.
Meanwhile, Andres Torres is showing, as so often happens, that players ghettoized as “utility” can, when given some playing time, turn in remarkable numbers (Juan who?).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Andres Torres, even though I quite like him, also currently has a .341 BABIP and is striking out nearly 30% of the time (as well as seeing a solid chunk of his AB this year against LHP, against whom he hits extremely well). I think expecting him to be useful as anything more than a 4th OF next year would be ill-advised.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Not that I disagree with the rest of it, but I don’t think a .341 BABIP sounds crazy out of line for Torres.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
His minor league BABIP since 2005 has been about .358. I think you’re meant to expect more of a drop in the jump from the majors to the minors, but I’m not an expert on these things…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Why? I’ve never heard of anything about this, but I wouldn’t think it would be expected to change.
by kingofthacove on Sep 24, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh I would guess there’s better defense on average in the majors than there is in the minors, even with the odd Brad Hawpe or Adam Dunn running around.
Yeah, and the pitching is better in the majors as well.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
So that means fewer line drives? Seems right, but I haven’t seen stats on it. I don’t even know if I’ve seen LD%, GB%, FB% and so on for the minors.
Maybe so, maybe not.
With all the foofaraw about “seeing what he can do” for the younger guys, one would think a guy like Torres could be cut a little slack. Yes, his BABIP is pretty good, but I really doubt he is a .220 hitter overall. The great bulk of his present offensive value comes not from his BA but from his power and walks (strikeouts mean little), which are normally stable factors.
The platoon differential is of concern, but isn’t that what “seeing what he can do” is all about? As I said elsethread, platoon differentials tend to be come self-fulfilling prophecies, because the player isn’t given the playing time he needs for his “off” side. There does not sem to be enough data yet to show convincingly that Torres’ differential is insuperable.
Research I did some many years ago showed a huge—stunning was my feeling—change in productivity depending on whether a man was getting more or less than half-time play. Lots of “utility guy” types blossom when they get some steady play time. Not all, of course, but quite a few, especially those who picked up the tag early in their careers.
(Remember, most every man who plays a while will have, from sheer chance, a career year and a terrible year; think what happens when the terrible year happens early in his career.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Torres is a 31-year old minor league journeyman with a .753 career minor league OPS. There’s not really anything in his minor league statistical record to indicate that his performance this year is anything more than a platoon-enhanced fluke.
He’s a useful player because of his speed and his defensive abilities and because he has some pop. He’s a pretty great fourth OF. But I don’t see much reason to think that he’s good for much more than that over the long run.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
What has he done lately?
His career is 12 years; what he did in 1999 or 2002 is not strongly relevant here. In 2008, in a full season at Iowa (AAA – I don’t recall for sure, but seem to think it’s not a strong offensive park) his OPS was 892. In 2007 at Toledo (I think another non-bandbox park) it was 854. So his current performance is not, after all, some bizarre anomaly.
And another thing: in a sane world, clubs would have four outfielders who each get 75% play time, so they aren’t dragging their asses in September. Torres fits right into that pattern.
Incidentally, on a tangent, the Indians were in the midst of converting Garko to an outfielder, and what little I’ve heard suggests that he was making out fairly well in first left, then right (for which, as a former catcher, he should have the arm). If Guzman really can hit, and can be made into a tolerable first baseman, Garko could get a test drive in right or left.
The defense is open to discussion, but for offense, an OF of Lewis, Schierholtz, Garko, Torres looks pretty fair (especially if someone could teach Schierholtz what a “strike zone” is). . . .
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
The Indians fans that came onto this website right after the trade suggested that Garko’s defense in the outfield was quite hilarious.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I only know what I read in the papers.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/03/ryan_garko_playing_outfield_a.html
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/03/ryan_garko_has_become_mr_left.html
http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=7889
Not cherry-picked: first relevant Google hits from Cleveland.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I thought you said guys that spend time in the majors and then go back down to the minors always tear it up and therefore you discounted Bowker’s AAA season this year. But before 2007 and 2008 Torres spent parts of 4 different seasons in the majors.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
I thought you said guys that spend time in the majors and then go back down to the minors always tear it up and therefore you discounted Bowker’s AAA season this year. But before 2007 and 2008 Torres spent parts of 4 different seasons in the majors.
I didn’t say “always”, but yes, that’s typically so. But Torres has had ups and downs to the minors over some span of time, and it is only in the past few years that he has shown the offensive increase at any level, which suggests that he has—not surprisingly for a matured, not young, player—learnt a few things. To repeat yet again: his increased value is in power and strike-zone judgement, values that are pretty “sticky”.
I don’t utterly discount Bowker, but I want to see more than a couple of cripple pitches hammered before I decide that there is really Something New there.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
He was 29 and 30 in those two years, in his umpteenth shot at AAA.
His MLEs for those two years were a .698 OPS in 2008 and .666 in 2007.
I’m not sure why you’re putting so much into Torres’s performance as a 29/30 year old in AAA in his 5th and 6th shots at the level and completely discounting Bowker’s incredible performance this year (.842 MLE) in pretty much his first full year at the level.
And EVERYTHING I’ve heard about Garko in the outfield is that it’s a disaster.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Cuz centerfielders who destroy their bodies usually get better with age….riiiiiiight
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