Joe Sheehan rips Bruce Bochy
"The Giants are going to miss the postseason by a small amount of wins. Bruce Bochy’s decision to bench Fred Lewis will be significant part of the gap between playing into October and not, and when you look back at the process, you can see that it’s an embarrassing display of incompetence. A good manager would have made use of Lewis’ skills, skills unique on the Giants’ roster. Instead, Bochy jerked the player around and then used bad performance analysis to bury him. The Giants and their fans deserve better than that kind of incompetence."
Very good article. Definitely worth the read.
2 months ago
AndOnTheDrums...
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Joe Sheehan usually strikes me as an idiot. I’m scared that he’s agreeing with me.
Does that make me an idiot? Don’t answer that.
by xanthan on Sep 23, 2009 12:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t usually like his stuff but he’s right on here! (For the most part, there are some things he says in here that I’d quibble with.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 23, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He makes some really solid points. Normally, reason isn’t part of his arsenal. Today is an exception.
by gvp914 on Sep 23, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not being a subscriber so not being able to read the remainder of the article, is there any mention of Lewis’ , um, defense?
Brett Pill - .302/.359/.849 at the graveyard for hitters known as Dodd, .996 fielding percentage led all EL 1B (so much for his 'defensive issues' that someone posted'), probably should have been EL MVP (finished 2nd to Cleveland's top prospect), and nary a staff mention on MCC outside of Minor Lines and almost no fanposts!
by HaroldS on Sep 23, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sheehan addresses his defense in the comments, calling him an average defender.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
He was spot on in this article though.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts as well. I guess he gets it right, on occasion.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Sep 23, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is the only regular other than Sandoval with an above-average OBP, making him water for an offense thirsty for baserunners.
That’s some fine writin’ thar.
He’s not an idiot, but he’s still useless. Anyone who can write an entire article complaining about Fred Lewis not being in the lineup while never mentioning fielding just isn’t paying attention.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did mention fielding…
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
? I don’t see it.
But now I do see that he’s suggesting that they could’ve gotten Velez into the lineup at second — or at short!
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he mentions defense in the article, but he refers to it in the comments.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What rotoreuter said
Sorry, thought he mentioned it in the article.
The defensive issue with Fred is really overblown. Yes, he looks awkward out there, but he’s got much better range than the average LF (much, much better range). He drops a few more balls than he should, but he makes up for it by getting to many more than most.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, WE know that, but the perception that Fred’s an epically horrible fielder is a big part of why he has been benched.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry again, misunderstood your argument. Yes, I completely agree.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I don’t get is how people like Bochy, who benched Fred for his defense, don’t realize that LF is the 2nd worst defensive position in MLB? Other teams put out guys like Adam Dunn in LF…compared to them, an athlete like Fred Lewis could run figure 8’s to every ball, drop half of them, and still be average out there. What the hell does Bochy expect out of our LF’er defensively?
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
poor range but no drops. That way the runs that you give up don’t get noticed in the paper the next day.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why I’m ok with casual baseball fans not knowing, but this is the type of basic thing stats or classic scouting evaluation would tell you. Bochy HAS to know this, right? Sabean HAS to know this, right?
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently not, and it’s not like Velez is some magician out there.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would consider that to be a point in the “don’t re-sign Bochy” column.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Sep 23, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fred has excellect range at getting to balls he can't catch.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 23, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fred Lewis: 3 errors in 131 chances. Seems he catches most balls.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When most players dive for balls and don’t catch them, they get a, “Good effort, better luck next time!”
When Fred does it, he gets a, “OMG FRED SUCKS SO MUCH DFA”.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 23, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder which Giant I should adopt after we non-tender Fred or trade him for a minor league journeyman. :(
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howry would be the logical complement, but I don’t think he’ll still be around.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty indifferent towards Howry. He’s the only White Flag player ever to come back to us, which is interesting, but otherwise…
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you can adopt Mike Caruso when they re-sign him this offseason.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 24, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fred has excellect range at getting to balls he can’t catch.
He gets to those balls he can’t catch — then doesn’t catch them, therefore, no error. He’s not that great at fielding balls he should field or throwing balls to where they should be thrown. As long as he didn’t kick the ball around or throw it away, no error.
He’s acceptable in LF, since you only have to be OK there provided you hit with some authority, which he didn’t quite achieve. If you have more K’s than hits playing LF, you better be Dave Kingman or Vince Coleman.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 23, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s more than acceptable playing LF, we’re talking about the 2nd worst position defensively in baseball. He’s much better than most LF’ers. K’s are also not a big deal, he gets on base at a well above average rate, which is much more helpful than K’s are hurtful.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can get by with excessive K's...
…if you have excess HR Power or excess SB Speed. Lewis certainly does not have the former, he has not quite lived up to the latter — he might have had Bochy stuck with him, but we’ll never know now.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 23, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or if you get on base at a rate that’s above average. A K is an out, just the same way anything else is an out. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. If he’s still making less outs than most other MLB players, he’s productive.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bullshit.
As we saw Monday, Fred putting the ball in play and running like a motherfucker up the line got the team a 5-4 win.
As we saw Wednesday, Randy putting the ball in play led to an AZ Error and and 2 SF Runs.
K’s are useless.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well sure, if you want to cherry-pick the times putting the ball in play didn't end badly
Or did I fall into the sarchasm?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 24, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the players who K the most. Usually those are players who also hit for a great deal of power and get on base a good amount. K’s are often simply a negative byproduct of a good approach—-and the trade off is worth it.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 24, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their OBP are a byproduct of HR fear
The BB which Mark Reynolds gets are not walks that Lewis or Ishikawa would get. The tradeoff is only worth it if the guy hits 35+ bombs and his H/K differential is sufficient to intimidate pitchers into throwing challenge fastballs to the high BA hitter in front of him.
The tradeoff is also worth it if the batter has tremendous base-stealing ability and bats leadoff. The kind who can steal a BB into a 2B.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And do you have any evidence for any of your claims? We could just as easily claim the K’s are a byproduct of a patient hitter, and sometimes that will result in K’s but sometimes the pitcher will miss the zone and it will result in BB’s. Without evidence backing up assertions like this, though, they’re meaningless theories.
The bottom line is Fred Lewis produces. Not making an out, which he does better than most players in baseball, is extremely valuable.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying that the walks that Lewis gets are not walks that Lewis would get because nobody fears his power?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do I need to go through and point out horrible instances of Giants players grounding into double plays?
Honestly, I haven’t looked at it in a while, but I do think putting the ball into play is better than K’ing (in terms of helping a team score runs), but only by a small amount. Given how rare Lewis hits with guys on base (since we suck at getting on base), it’s even smaller for him. Personally, I’d hit Lewis leadoff where he’ll rarely hit with guys on base so it’s almost a non-issue. At leadoff, the only important thing is how often he safely reaches base. He does that well.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As we saw Monday, Fred putting the ball in play and running like a motherfucker up the line got the team a 5-4 win.
OR: As we saw Monday, Fred making a not-out got us a run.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that was Garko, it would have been an out...
…same goes for anybody else on that bench. It only worked because it was Fred as PH.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If my ass was made of gold, I’d make a lot of noise trying to sit down on metal chairs.
That’s not the point.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A strikeout is just an out. If you’re making not-outs more often than other people, it doesn’t really matter that much.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it depends on the context
depending on the base/out state, a K maybe very slightly preferable to a non-K out, and vice versa. These discrepancies are pretty teeny, though.
And as usual, honkysmaskdbaaqw is full of shit.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 24, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I do recognize that there are differences and that they do matter… I just don’t like pretending like they matter A LOT. Big picture: 90% of the time, getting thrown out at first is just as bad as a K. Big picture: Not-outs are more important that productive/nonproductive/stupid/whimsical/magical/whatever outs. Small picture: yeah, different kinds of outs occasionally have different, minor effects on some occasional situations.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
i was not meaning to disagree with the spirit of what you’re saying at all. In fact, I agree with it without reservation. The discrepancies are so small as to be negligible.
bottom line: honkyballs is full of shit.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 24, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
p.s.
the outs are equivalent much more than 90% of the time — i don’t have the data at my fingertips, but I suspect it’s something more like a 2-3% difference, not a 10% difference.
the benefit of moving runners over/sacrifice flies on the one hand is balanced by the cost of hitting into DPs on the other.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 24, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
??????
If something happens in 3% of PAs that means it can make a difference in over TWENTY different plays per everyday player.
That could mean over 20 more runs scored for your team per player by putting the ball in play.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could mean over 20 more runs scored for your team per player by putting the ball in play.
Sure, it could, but on average it doesn’t. People do in fact study these things. Strikeouts are not a big deal, they’re just one out. Getting on base is a much, much, much, much, much more important positive attribute than striking out is a negative attribute.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously doubt that productive out ultimately result in a run scored 100% of the time.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 24, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If one reaches base 20 more times...
there is the possiblity that one could score 20 more times.
If you K and don’t reach base, you have ZERO possibility.
Put the ball in fucking play, Dweebs!
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re finally picking up on the important thing – reaching base without making an out. Fred Lewis does that well. Glad we agree.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
30+ years of watching MLB baseball I have yet to see a walk truned into a double play. While balls in play turniong into double plays …. well that happens rather often. The moral is put the ball in play on a pitch are most liekly to handle well.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Sep 25, 2009 5:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember that final home game against the Rox?
2 men on and Uribe did what?
K?
Fuck that, he put a ball in play and Tulowitless threw it into the outfield to score a run and prolong the inning.
That’s BASEBALL, Bitches!
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dang, I thought I was watching Iron Chef.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 24, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TODAY’S SECRET INGREDIENT IS STRIKEOUTS!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, really? You’re bringing up a couple of anecdotal examples into this conversation? I thought I put that to rest the first time you tried. That’s not evidence. Stop it. I don’t want to bring up bad memories of double plays, but we both know I can. It doesn’t prove shit, though, so just stop.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reality Alert: THREE just this month.
Two won ballgames.
That’s IN YOUR FACE!
by hokysmksbw on Sep 24, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh, because that means something….
(Except no, it really doesn’t)
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously
read the cited studies and report back.
A strikeout = an out. Sometimes it’s actually preferable to a non-K out. SOmetimes it’s not. The evidence shows that the difference is negligible.
Bitch.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 24, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember that ime Rowand came up against the Brewer
2 men on and Rowand did what?
K?
Fuck that, he put the ball in play, and McGehee threw it around the horn for a god damned triple play.
That’s BASEBALL, Bitches!
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 24, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. I’m glad that has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about because otherwise I’d have to put some effort into making an argument.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reality is that players are human beings...
and can’t be so easily quantified. Statistical projection is NOT reality, it’s bullshit. Real baseball playing can’t be programmed or simulated by computation.
Suck on that, Nerd.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 25, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But now I do see that he’s suggesting that they could’ve gotten Velez into the lineup at second — or at short!
I’m not a subscriber, is he really suggesting that…?
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s someone else.
I made sure that everyone knows how good an idea that is.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will say, I’ve been pleasantly surprised be Velez’s D in the outfield. At middle infield he looks like he’s never played a day of baseball in his life, but in the outfield he looks adequate at worst. I dunno why we didn’t make the transition with him a long time ago.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s actually not really a transition. Velez played outfield more often than infield in the minors.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BR has him at 201 games at 2B, 116 at SS, 52 LF, 11 3B, 74 CF, 1 RF in his minor league career.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, I’m misremembering.
What I should have said is that he played outfield more than infield in the upper minors.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I guess the relevant point it seems to me is that after watching how lost he looks in the infield and how he looks like he might actually turn into a decent OF’er, why on earth did the Velez at 2B experiment continue? The second someone saw him in the outfield a light bulb should have gone off saying “NEVER PLAY HIM ANYWHERE ELSE AGAIN”. Yes, in caps, because it’s that obvious.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was my position a year ago, but now I’d sort of like to see him at second base for a couple of weeks. I doubt he can pull it off, but if he can hit .295/.346/.480, which are his stats since his July callup, all he has to do is not be completely horrible.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he looked just as bad in the outfield.
That’s my recollection, at least. It’s not like he was good in the OF from day one, there was legitimate concern if he could play ANY position.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True. While I’m not saying Velez is great in the OF or anything, he does have great speed and he’s really just that bad at doing anything that even resembles fielding ground balls that relatively speaking, it’s almost like he’s a gold glove outfielder. I just see such a huge difference in his ability between the two it seems like it should be a no brainer.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s Sheehan!
Velez has also played a lot at Lewis’ expense, when the team would have been better off using him at either middle infield spot in place of Edgar Renteria, who’s been awful, or in lieu of trading for Freddy Sanchez.
I guess to be charitable you could interpret that to mean playing someone else at short and Velez at second.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s always loved Fred Lewis.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s going to have to answer to jponry and BVCE.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he loved Fred Lewis even before jponry. Back when the giants first signed Rowand, he complained that they could have gotten similar production for peanuts by keeping Winn in center and using Lewis in a corner.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that’s pretty much true.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 23, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One issue
He groups the Panda in with Molina as one of the slowest players in baseball. I don’t think that’s true. Just one of the portliest.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Sep 23, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he’s looking five years into the future.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Governor Posey?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 23, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s crazy is that he makes such a strong argument without even mentioning the Posey-Whiteside debacle, or the benching of Garko against lefties.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bruce Bochy sucks in so many ways it’s amazing that he still has defenders.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh god, why is there so much dumb in the comments?! This is a paid-only statistics website for chrissakes!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geez, I can’t believe people are throwing out those same arguments there…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 23, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’ll always have his defenders. They’re all in Richmond now, though.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Posey-Mlina-Whiteside issue is emotionally difficult for us fans, but I don’t see how it has actually made a difference in terms of wins and losses. Showing that Bochy is unimaginative, yes it does that.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 23, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Posey would be better than both Molina and Whiteside, so there is a difference in wins and losses right there.
Granted, Molina probably wouldn’t be forced to back up Posey at this junction by any manager of any team, anyway, so the effect goes way down. But still, he’s be way, way, way better than Whiteside.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also shows a cluelessness in player development, which for a team in the Giants situation is worse than the wins and losses… I don’t know if it’s Bochy or Sabean, but someone arranged things so that Posey would miss out on the one thing he needs – experience catching games in professional baseball.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 23, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Bochy seriously come back next season? He can’t, can he?
I still believe in Ryan Garko...........
by 49er16 on Sep 23, 2009 12:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I HOPE XANTHAN IS WRONG
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Listen, manager of the year candidate, I’m happy for you and I’m going to let you finish, but Bruce Bochy is the best manager of the history of the sport this year of all time.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They dumped Dusty after …well … you know…
So who can say?
by Merope on Sep 23, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just had a thought
Cain and Timmy would have both had career-threatening injuries by now if Dusty was managing them. He scares the hell out of me with young pitchers.
by FireBrianSabean on Sep 23, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy is a pathetically bad offensive manager
I think his biggest offensive mistake is not playing Lewis, who along with Panda and Rowand is the only above average career hitter on the team, and is their 3rd best hitter this season. Bochy’s next worst decision has probably been benching Garko, who is a good hitter for his career.
But his other questionable offensive decisions probably don’t make too much of a difference, line-up order, playing Wynn or Veldez over Schierholtz, etc… The poor offense has to rest at the feet of Sabean and the player personelle staff, not Bochy per say.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 23, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is correct. The only thing you left out was Bochy’s playing of Whiteside over Posey on Molina’s off-days.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Wynn is unrated.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was gonna comment on that, but he spelt the hardest name possible correctly so I thought it was Sarchasm. Maybe I fell in?
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 23, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sincerely doubt it.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“San Francisco Slim” is formerly “GiantJim” who ’s been around forever and knows his stuff. My guess is he was just typing too quickly.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Sep 23, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I reserve the right to use ‘player personelle’ though.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 23, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a female playa? a donna juanita, if you will?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 24, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
over the course of an entire season bad lineups, including who to play and not to play, have probably cost the team a handful of runs, which probably means some wins in the Giants case b/c they play so many close games.
Normally, a manager’s decisions in that regard don’t have too much of an effect and other teams do it to, but this year Bochy’s lineups have been horrendous, even considering what he has to work with and they have cost the team some games for sure.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 23, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Typically, lineups don’t matter too much because the difference between the optimal lineup and the one that is actually played isn’t much. This assumes, correctly, that most managers know how to put together a not-fucktarded lineup. Bochy is not most managers.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed. Though, I think that idiom assumes that the manager will usually play the correct PLAYERS.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This too
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the key. Studies on optimal lineup stuff focus on where the best players bat. They don’t take into account the fact that there might be a manager out there who plays players who are 10 runs worse than the players on the bench that could replace them. Fred Lewis is probably 10 runs better than Randy Winn over the course of this season. Any average player would be worth 20 more runs than Edgar Renteria (like say…Juan Uribe?) That’s 30 runs, or about 3 wins right there (and probably even more than 3 wins considering our lowest in the league scoring environment).
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point exactly
Not playing Lewis over the course of 100 of PAs, has to have cost the Giants more than batting Molina 4th instead of 8th.
As bad as Renteria and Winn have been this season, historically they should have been two of the Giants best hitters. Renteria seems to have been playing injured, so Bochy doesnt’ get a pass on that one, although historically Uribe has been a bad hitter. Which gets back to my point, that the blame should rest with Sabeans’ staff. Not a lot of realistic options for Bochy.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 25, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posey/whiteside
Its likely a poor choice, and emphasizes the frustration we feel with Bochy, but did it actually cost a win? Not playing Lewis throughout the season is a much greater offense.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 23, 2009 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe you mean much worse offense. Our offense has been much worse.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about not playing Schierholtz over Randy Winn? I thought that was very offensive too.
I still believe in Ryan Garko...........
by 49er16 on Sep 23, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s funny (to me in a crying sort of way) is that Conor Gillaspie (who was entirely not-ready for the majors last year and was only up as a contract clause) got 5 PA’s last season with the Giants. Posey, who is certainly ready for the majors, has had 3 PA’s this season.
I just can’t get over that.
by xanthan on Sep 23, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants don't evaluate players based on merit
thus, Buster needs a new agent.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 23, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We weren’t in a playoff race, so we didn’t have to GO WIT DA GAIYZ WHO GOT US HERE
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately, Bochy doesn’t understand that the “here” is 3rd place. the guys we have got us to 3rd place and that something more was needed to get the team over the hump.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 23, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy must hate Posey………
I still believe in Ryan Garko...........
by 49er16 on Sep 23, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy has done his best job of managing ever this year
so well, in fact, that he can’t possibly do any better next season. SO, the Giants should just quit while their ahead and let him go on to greener pastures elsewhere and hire a new manager.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 23, 2009 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like it
SELL HIGH
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Selling high is never a good idea. You’ll probably settle for way less or chicken nuggets.
by xanthan on Sep 23, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
99 TACOS!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Sep 23, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot to specify what was in the tacos, how big they’d be, etc. Now you’re stuck with 99 WalrusMan ranch mini tacos.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
99 tacos with Walrusman's special dressing!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 23, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WalrusMan wouldn’t have it. Xanthan is much to old to experience his special sauce
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 23, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SELL! SELL! SELL!
I still believe in Ryan Garko...........
by 49er16 on Sep 23, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is really funny (or sad if you're a fan)
is that criticizing Bochy at this point is like shooting fish in a barrel. Anyone can do it and nearly everyone has. But what stings is that the Giants are very likely to bring him back next year b/c their evaluation methods are typically so flawed and often illogical.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 23, 2009 1:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You'd think they'd notice...
…that Bochy is rapidly becoming a laughing stock not just among lunatic fringe fans but, increasingly, even in the mainstream media.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 23, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who in the mainstream media?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I just might call into KNBR today
and summarize all of Bochy’s failing as well as the increasing national attention
Jim Callis wonders why he has the same numbers of at bats Buster Posey has, 8 days after his promotion.
Keith Law tweets in channel #bochyfail, and corrects a reader who asks if Posey is currently the 3rd best hitter on the Giants by saying he is the 2nd best hitter on the Giants.
Larry Dobrow of CBS sports is convinced that Bruce Bochy is either betting against his own team or suffering from neurological impairment
Joe Sheehan of BP calls Bochy’s decision making “an embarrassing display of incompetence” and "Giants fans deserve better than that kind of incompetence.
How much more do we have to endure?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have to endure more if Bochy comes back next season.
I still believe in Ryan Garko...........
by 49er16 on Sep 23, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just hoping the floodgates continue and some of this registers with Neukom to affect his decision.
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Sep 23, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn’t seen Dobrow’s comments. That made me LOL.
"If you want to walk, watch a mailman."--Shawon Dunston
"If you want to bunt, bake a cake."--Bruce Bochy
by Kitspool on Sep 23, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HORS – finally a stat that appreciates my talents… not in Bochy’s league, natch, but still.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 23, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add to that...
…Sam A. Miller of the Orange County Register.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 23, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll defend Bochy
He manages pitchers well – both starters and relievers. I think he’s handled Zito exceptionally well this year, helping turn him into a benefit to the team for the first time in 3 years. He does a decent job bringing young pitchers along, not shredding their arms like our previous two managers. And he’s got a good feel for managing a bullpen. Given that pitchers are the strength of the team, he’s doing a good job protecting our most important assets.
Lineup construction has next to zero effect on run scoring. The players put in the lineup do, and here he’s open for severe criticism. But seriously, we’re getting this mad about him because he has a choice to play 3 of Velez, Schierholtz, Lewis, Winn, Torres or Rowand in the OF. Not like there are a lot of good choices there. Put another way, the marginal difference between the worst possible lineup of those choices and the best is pretty thin.
Bitching about managers is incredibly overrated.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 1:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He has some glaring holes when it comes to managing pitchers. How many times has he left guys out there one batter too long when their pitch count is rapidly rising and they’re clearly losing it?
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And also
The organization is (hopefully) going to have a lot of young hitters coming up through the system in next few years – guys like Posey, Thomas Neal, maybe Kieschnick, maybe someone out of the Gillaspie/Noonan/Crawford triumvirate, etc. A lot of our potential future success rides on at least some of these guys developing into useful hitters. Bochy, based on his actions and statements around the Posey situation (and others), is clearly not a guy who likes to play young hitters in meaningful situations – and he’s pretty much flat-out said that he thinks playing rookies and “trying to win” are incompatible. I don’t see how that makes him and the Giants a good fit.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
and it is troubling.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is, he doesn’t seem to have that issue with pitchers. Runzler and Joaquin have both pitched a fair amount at the exact same time when Posey can’t ever play because he’s inexperienced. It’s really weird.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s almost like he can manage pitchers objectively because he was never a pitcher and can’t manage position players objectively for the opposite reason.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is the whole Benito Santiago theory that was advanced yesterday.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I missed it, can you summarize or link?
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 1987, Bentio Santiago was a hot-shot rookie catcher for the Padres, while Bruce Bochy was his grizzled veteran backup – who only got 38 games and 87 plate appearances all year, and never played again. The theory, I think, was that he was bitter about that and that influences why he won’t play Posey.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
Fantastic and believable.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was funny that Giants fans talked about this theory, then someone linked to a forum of Padres fans talking about the exact same thing (from when Bochy was there)…
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not a theory anymore…it is accepted as gospel
Half awake, half baked
by Giant Homer on Sep 23, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first time an idea is posted on the internet, it's crazy.
The second time, it’s a theory.
The third time, it’s fact!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 23, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just you wait.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 23, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JCB9 LINKED TO SANTIAGO AND BOCHY!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 23, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The theory
As a rookie, Benito Santiago started like 140 games. His backup, veteran catcher Bruce Bochy, started about 15.
He’s carried that with him for too long.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 23, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
I’m totally over anything that happened to me in 1987. However, I’m still bitter about perceived slights from 1998.
"If you want to walk, watch a mailman."--Shawon Dunston
"If you want to bunt, bake a cake."--Bruce Bochy
by Kitspool on Sep 23, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m still a little bitter about that botched Candy Maldonado catch from 1987. But y’all know that.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m still a little pissed about that whole potty training crap that started for me in 1987. Every now and then I take a big steamer right in my pants to get back at those jerks who tried to make me stop 22 years ago.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
…and you were only 12 at the time!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey now.
Even my oldest sister was only 8 at the time.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point of clarification: both of my sisters are older than me. I didn’t realize that wasn’t implied by that sentence when I wrote it.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a knew theory
After the confusion and embarrassment surrounding Sandoval’s rookie ineligibility, the Giants want to be sure that they can keep mining the PR goldmine of off season hardware by protecting Posey’s 2010 rookie status.
How can the Giants possibly sell season tickets without some kind of nearly meaningless individual award winner to plaster all over their posters and commercials?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He does, sometimes. Every manager does. He’s not perfect, but, overall, I think he’s one of the better managers with regard to handling pitchers.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the way he handles our bullpen, especially Wilson. While conventional wisdom has been all about using the closer in closer situations, Bochy has done a pretty good job of using him in high leverage situations, where we want him to be.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously this. First half Zito is probably the poster boy of a guy pitching well only to fall off late in games. Yes he’s leagues better than Dusty/Alou, but that’s not exactly a high bar.
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Sep 23, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Second half Zito is probably the poster boy of a guy getting the hook at the right time, though. Yes, he was stubborn and can continue to be (especially with veteran pitchers), but he’s light years ahead of so many other managers – not just Dusty and Felipe.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is zero defense for some of the things he does
- Molina in the cleanup spot Sitting Garko and Ishikawa so Renteria can play everyday
-
- Eli Whiteside having 3 times the at bats the Posey has in September Benching Fred Lewis so Winn and Velez can have more at bats
-
More than the decisions themselves, it’s the inexplicable logic that leads to those decisions that are particularly troubling. Molina probably won’t be here next year, but the decision to bat him cleanup is based on “RBI Guy” and “Clutch hitting and HR potential”. That kind of thinking will lead to somebody else batting in the cleanup spot that doesn’t belong there next year.
The decision to sit Garko after 44 at bats is going to lead to other players not getting playing time because they had one rough streak next year.
Bruce Bochy’s thinking pattern is stuck in the 80s, where HR, Avg, and RBI are the dominant stats of choice because there isn’t enough information and statistical analysis about the on base percentage and the importance of not making outs in this game. That kind of thinking has expired, and so has Bochy’s contract.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get all that you're saying, but
seriously, is Garko/Ishikawa really that big of a deal? Or Winn/Lewis? Or any other of a bunch of scenarios? I just don’t think it matters all that much. Our optimal lineup with everything going right doesn’t score 700 runs this season.
Everything you pointed out is valid and I pretty much agree with it, but I’m just not convinced that it matters all that much.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball is a game of small differences. All the differences add up. It’s about a win here, a win there. If none of the decisions matter then I can run this team, don’t pay him millions of dollars. I’ll do it for free.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d pay $5!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might make less of a difference for a better hitting team, but for a team that is lucky to scrape 2-3 runs a game, every little bit of extra offense would have helped.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Sep 23, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it doesn't matter too much right now
The decision making process does though as it will impact future decisions that do really matter.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is true, and a good reason
But that decision making process probably starts above him with the GM, moreso than with the manager.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
I would imagine so. A house cleaning is in order.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the key thing. All Bochy’s bad decisions PROBABLY weren’t enough to make up the gap on the Rockies — but they sure convinced me he’s not the guy we want in the dugout when we have a better team.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously, is Garko/Ishikawa really that big of a deal? Or Winn/Lewis?
Yeah, they probably kind of are.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I guess I disagree. Very marginal difference overall.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’ve both been poor hitters for first basemen, but they are much better hitters than Edgar Renteria.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could certainly be swayed with shiny defensive evidence and runs created / saved stats, but I’m inclined to believe intuitively (I know… I know….) that consistently playing better players over a long period of time makes a big difference.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't disagree with you there
I think we just disagree on the magnitude of difference between the options Bochy has at his disposal.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure that you’re properly evaluating just how ridiculously terrible Edgar Renteria has been this year.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 23, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe/Renteria I’ll give you. And he’s playing Uribe down the stretch.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But playing both Uribe AND Renteria.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Winn – 1 WAR player over a full season (I think his UZR is inflated, but I’d still call him very good at around +10). Fred Lewis – ~2 WAR player over a full season. Edgar Renteria – 0 WAR player. Ishikawa/Garko – >1 WAR player over a full season. Those combinations alone are significant.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that they're probably quite marginal differences.
However, the Giants are in that 87-90 win range were every single win, and, therefore, every marginal upgrade, has a vastly inflated value.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me, 87-90 seems optimistic right now. But maybe that’s because I’m feeling very pessimistic right now.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.500 the rest of the way would put them at 87.
86.5 actually, I optimistically rounded up.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
87 wins!
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it’s more -90 part I’m taking about. There are, what, 11 games left? They’d have to go 9-2 to get to 90 wins. I just don’t see that happening.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's just (roughly) he high leverage range, not a prediction of the Giants' record.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Each of those things add up to losing whatever could have been gained from trading for Freddy Sanchez.
by DesertFox on Sep 23, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Winn/Lewis is a big deal. Lewis is at least 10 runs better than Winn as a player. Schierholtz probably is, too. Garko/Ishikawa are also at least 10 runs better than Renteria, who’s a replacement level player. These are significant amounts (and much, much more than poor lineup construction, which is another thing Bochy does, hurts us).
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I just called Fitz and Brooks
And Now I am absolutely convinced that they are complete retards.
“Bruce Bochy is bad at his job” — Me
“He has nothing to work with” — F&B
“Bengie Molina has made more outs than anyone else in baseball, he should not hit cleanup” — Me
“BUT THIS OFFENSE SUCKS” — F&B
“I know it does, that’s why it’s important to get everything you can out of this offense, and Molina should not hit cleanup” — Me
“BUT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. THIS OFFENSE SUCKS NOBODY ELSE CAN HIT CLEANUP MOLINA IS THE BEST CHOICE YOU HAVE " — Fitz
“…….” — Me
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don’t really know anything about baseball. They’re OK with other sports.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you saying that because you know more about baseball?
ie, if you know as much about football as you do baseball, are you convinced you won’t see them as complete fucktards as well?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Er, yes?
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if Fitz even knows basketball. 8 of out of 10 times Fitz is whining about some foul call (or non-call) and Jim Barnett corrects him.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 24, 2009 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whenever I start to think that Fitz knows basketball
I remember that every summer since he’s gotten his job at KNBR back, he’s said something to the effect of “Don’t judge the Warrior’s off season now [ie: after all the worthwhile free agents have signed] because there’s still alot of offseason left and this isn’t the team you’ll see on opening day” and he’s been wrong EVERY TIME.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 24, 2009 2:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they did agree with me on one thing.
Garko and Ishikawa should not sit so that Edgar Renteria can hit.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IIRC
These were the guys who championed the Rios-Lincecum trade, and demanded the acquisition of Crede. Also, I’m pretty sure that Fitz has some sort of sycophantic personality disorder which prevents him from ever criticizing a manager or GM while they’re still employed.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Kawakami was all over that trade.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and Crede
.225 / .289 / .414 / 88 OPS+ / 367 PA in 90 games. Yeah, I was right when I was all Do Not Want about him last offseason.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
make the call right now on Beltre next year
Buy or sell?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we had a decent lineup, I’d definitely consider him just for his glove. But we don’t, and I wouldn’t want to take the risk of him having another offensive season like he did this year.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to be a big proponent of trying to trade for him, though.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing that was Rod doing most of the talking. Fitz doesn’t usually insist so vehemently that you’re trying to talk about something that he’s not talking about even though that’s not the case.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was 100% fitz, unfortunately. The only point that Rod interjected was when I said Ishikawa and garko should not sit so Renteria can hit. Rod said “I’ll agree with THAT”
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ihmo
Fist and Brokes are teh suckage
Half awake, half baked
by Giant Homer on Sep 23, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ihmo = I have my opinion…
Not as popular as imho, but we’ll see…
Half awake, half baked
by Giant Homer on Sep 23, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMO – sour cream substitute.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 23, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some people’s opinions are anything but humble.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Sep 23, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you record the exchange? It’d be interesting to hear.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately i was talking on my cell phone and I did not. I wonder if they archive those things though (probably not)
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha! Wow. I guess they’ve changed roles in the two years since I listened to them.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you were the one who called when I was listening to these two idiots talk.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 24, 2009 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I wanted to throw stuff at them
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 24, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+ 1 Defending Bochy
Excellent post, tedfordfan. This site tends to have very intelligent posts, as a rule, but the Bochy bashing isn’t terribly rational. If the season was replayed with McCovey Chronicle’s highest rated manager (whomever that would be) helming the Giants, do you really think they would have more wins, with the worst offense in the league?
Bochy was hired by the Giants with a reputation for developing young arms and managing bullpens well. There is no evidence that he hasn’t done this well as Giants manager.
Futhermore, field management can make a difference with managing pitching, but is is difficult to make a difference managing offense, other than choosing the best players to play. Usually this is self evident and when it isn’t, it doesn’t make that much of difference.
Bochy has done better than an average manager this season, in my estimation, given the caveat that managers make little difference anyhow.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 25, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the season was replayed with McCovey Chronicle’s highest rated manager (whomever that would be) helming the Giants, do you really think they would have more wins, with the worst offense in the league?
Aboslutely.
Simply not hitting Molina in the four-spot alone might even get you 1 win. Optimize the batting order, play Bowker and Torres in right, Uribe instead of Renteria at short…. that should get you a coupla wins right there.
(Disclaimer: I’m pulling all this out of my ass and have no data to support it, but, y’know, playing talented players over veteran players should generally result in better outcomes.)
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 25, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
:( Torres.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 25, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure Giants fans deserve better. It seems like outside of the McCoven (and some here as well) people think Fred Lewis should not be starting and is not good at all.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 23, 2009 1:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, you drop three or four fly balls without hitting any home runs and striking out looking a lot and see what the majority fanbase who only pay attention to the game with their eyes have to say about you.
Lewis’s worst quality really is that he does some of the most visible things poorly and most of the less visible things really rather well.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis’s worst quality really is that he does some of the most visible things poorly and most of the less visible things really rather well.
this
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, that will get you fired from a lot of jobs.
Half awake, half baked
by Giant Homer on Sep 23, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My father in law has the same theory (about getting fired from jobs for this). His idea is that if you’re good at things people can’t see, they won’t know about it. His standing suggestion is to occasionally create a problem that you solve, so folks can see how good you can be.
I don’t think Fred could practically do that, though.
Although i’m not in love with him or anything, i would have liked to see him get some more playing time.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on Sep 23, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My wife says something like this. She’s frequently noticed that in her organization the managers whose teams are smooth running machines tend to get very meh ratings, but the managers whose teams are frequently in crisis mode because something big’s been dropped or missed — but then solve the crisis at the last minute — tend to get stellar ratings. The obvious moral: It’s better to be seen solving your failures then to have no failures at all.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Sep 24, 2009 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YOU’D BETTER CORRECT THAT THEN ERROR SO I CAN RATE YOU MORE HIGHLY AS A WRITER!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 24, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we live in an imperfect world
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another question about Bochy
Knowing that Brian Sabean is going to be making the choice of a new manager, and knowing Bochy’s strengths and weaknesses, and knowing (basically) the makeup of our team next year (pitching and defense), are you prepared to live with the potential consequences of his choice?
Personally, I don’t see the upside outweighing the potential disaster.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They might both be fired
/crosses fingers and prays to every known deity
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus, Allah, Buddha, I love you all!
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading everything said by Neukom
I think it’s 99% likely that Sabean is back. And it’ll be his decision as to whether or not Bochy comes back. And he called Bochy the likely manager of the year.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then
I’m going to have to pray really fucking hard.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prayer can never hurt.
/prays
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prayer can never hurt
Tell that to the auto-flagellation crowd.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 23, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
You’re supposed to pray when you do that?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He even uses his wrong to tie his hair up.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you are choosing certain failure over uncertain success? We don’t know what the new manager can do, but we know what Bochy cannot do.
I’ll take a chance with whoever the new manager is, because Bochy is certain failure.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll take a chance with whoever the new manager is, because Bochy is certain failure.
Disagree. Half of the game he handles quite well. And it happens to be the half that actually matters to this organization.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
With this staff, the managers job is mostly to get the hell out of the way and let them fuck hitters up. However, coaxing a few extra runs out of the lineup would be nice.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy is replacement level manager
I’d rather see if I can pickup a +2 WAR manager.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shooting for average, I see you don’t have very high expectations…
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing that Brian Sabean is going to be making the choice of a new manager
This cannot happen. We can’t retain Sabean. I don’t care for Bochy, but I don’t think in a good organization he’d be allowed to do what he does so his failings would be irrelevant and have no impact. Bringing back Brian Sabean, though, is the worst thing we could do and will lead to more years of pulling out our hair because we know far more about winning baseball games than the GM…
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With this staff, that manager’s job is to not shred their arms, pull them when they’re gassed, and let them fuck hitters up.
And yes, coaxing a few extra runs out of the lineup would be nice. But it would only be a few extra runs. You can’t squeeze water from a stone.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Reply fail - marcello
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Sep 23, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quick poll
If Tony LaRussa or Mike Scioscia was managing the Giants and given the same group of players, how many more runs would the Giants have scored over the course of this season?
I’m going with 40-50, or, 4-5 wins.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you guys serious?
Based on what evidence? Seriously.
by San Francisco Slim on Sep 25, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
see post above
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Sep 25, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on the assumption they play our best players. I’d say just playing Uribe + Lewis instead of Winn + Renteria alone would be worth 30-40 runs (though I went with total runs, not just offensive, offensive it would be a little more with a little loss in defense).
by Missing Barry on Sep 25, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, we don’t play in a 10 runs = 1 win run environment. We play in the lowest run environment in the league, so 10 runs = 1+ wins (do not know exactly how big of a factor this is).
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was an 8-run environment, last time I checked.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a place online that has these kinds of calculations? So then 10 runs = 1.25 wins.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just added up the team runs scored and runs allowed, and divided by games played. But maybe that’s not how it’s done.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I’m not sure the relationship is linear that way (80% run environment = 8 runs per win)? I haven’t actually thought about it at all so I don’t have any idea, really.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it made sense at the time, but now that I think about it it seems dumb. So I’ll just say that Giants games average 7.9 runs scored while all MLB games average 9.2 runs scored, and wait for someone else to do the math.
by Evan on Sep 23, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We got the general concept down at least. :)
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say 20 more runs scored.
And 20 more runs allowed.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 23, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously dislike Tony LaRussa, but isn’t his contract running out with the Cardinals this year?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 23, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TLR drives me insane with the 13 man pitching staff
but he is a good manager.
I’d really like to give Ron Wotus a chance though.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Sep 23, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wotus was who I wanted them to give the job to back before 2007. Him or Bud Black.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Freddy
Was looking up something on Baseball Reference and noticed this about Lewis…
Not sure when he did it, but he scored some runs this year. I think he scored more runs per plate appearance (a stat I just made up, btw) of anyone on the team (actually, Torres scored more).
Can’t really defend his D. And watching him hit is frustrating, but maybe he could have gotten a few more ABs. On this team, I think the rollercoaster D hurt him more than anything.
by bendito on Sep 23, 2009 4:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
/sigh
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Sep 23, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The runs thing was one of the main points brought up to counter the RBI crowd. Not surprisingly, it fell on deaf ears.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anyone ever explained to me why RBIs were so much more valid than runs scored…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Sep 23, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone can score runs
It takes a GAMER to drive them in.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 23, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
How can you score runs if someone isn’t driving them in?
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
by marcello on Sep 23, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lots of triples and stealing home.
by Missing Barry on Sep 23, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, bases-loaded-no-out double plays. The Giants should be really good at those…if only they could find a way to load the bases.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 23, 2009 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike Bengie, Lewis might actually beat the throw to 1st, though. That’s unacceptable. If the other team knows they might not get the double play, they’ll try for home to stop the run! Stupid Fred Lewis and being fast.
by Missing Barry on Sep 24, 2009 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fire Bochy
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
FIRE BOCHY FIRE MOLINA
by kennv on Sep 23, 2009 6:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope Bochy is back
Maybe it will keep people away from the ball park (save for the Dodgers, A’s and Red Sox) and I could have plenty of room with no one sitting next to me.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
by SFGuy on Sep 24, 2009 1:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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