Renteria "i lost the game"
Yes you did...btw you went 0-4 with 5 men LOB and an error
thanks buddy
4 months ago
cazzuno
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In some ways, don’t you think that we all lost the game? Just think about that for a second.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 9:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We’re all Edgar Renteria
www.leaguelineup.com/lbucks24
by NuschlerFace on Sep 17, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes you don’t lose the game. Sometimes, the game loses you.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 17, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So true.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish the game would lose Renteria.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 17, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know exactly where the game is.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 17, 2009 9:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Found!
One game, in the loss column
Half awake, half baked
by Giant Homer on Sep 17, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This just give me an excuse to buy a newer game.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Sep 17, 2009 10:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bochy insisted Renteria is healthy and playable, though we know he’s got two bad shoulders and an elbow that needs surgery.
The guy says he isn’t healthy, he doesn’t look healthy, yet the manager insists that he is healthy?!? This is where the blame needs to be.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Sep 17, 2009 10:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Another loss courtesy of Bochy Bizarro and his strange adoration for veterans (but, not veterans named Rowand).
Giant season effort summary:
Was just enough ensure the Dodgers won the division.
Was just little enough to ensure the Giants lost the wild card.
by cybermaldonado on Sep 17, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy's explanation of why he didn't play Garko:
I wish I was making this up, but I’m not.
But the guys getting the lion’s share of the playing time are the guys I’m running out there.
Yep…he ran Renteria out there because Renteria is getting the lion’s share of the playing time! Or maybe it’s the other way around.
Just in case anyone still harbored any illusions of Bochy being a deep thinker.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 17, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This statement reminded me of a letter I read from an insurance company denying a claim, which read, “Your claim has been denied because it has been denied.”
Bochy should go for not knowing how to put a decent lineup together. Sabean should go because he does not know how to put a decent roster together.
by out machine on Sep 17, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I figure there must be a reason he’s getting the lion’s share of the playing time, so I won’t question it.”
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Sep 17, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t understand why Bochy wasn’t fired for saying this. Are you trying to tell me that this is what the pennant race is about? It’s about rewarding the players who got you this far by playing them even though you know there are players now here who might be superior? This is like saying, “Garko is better than Renteria, but Renteria played all year so I’m going to use him.” This is the kind of manager Leo Durocher was thinking about when he said, “nice guys finish last.” The Giants will not make the playoffs this year because Bochy is more concerned with rewarding veterans than winning baseball games.
proud father of Edgar (Grandslam) Renteria
by rxmeister on Sep 18, 2009 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jesus christ.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 17, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I was looking for a place to put this amazing piece of human thought. It is so unbelievably stupid but it could also be some 3rd level shit we normal folks can’t even comprehend.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 17, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bruce Bochy starts Edgar Renteria because Bruce Bochy starts Edgar Renteria. Bork.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 17, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was coming into say this exact thing. There is medical evidence to back up he is hurt, and Bochy still threw him out there, and also disrupted the lineup that had scored 19 runs the previous 2 games.
Defensive lineup my ass, if they had scored 8 runs behind cain it would have been fine.
"This season is expecting a $10,000 bonus, actually getting $50,000 but then accidentally setting $25,000 of that on fire." - AngelWillSaveUs
by scout6 on Sep 17, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t blame Renteria. I blame Bochy. Just to make that crystal clear.
by Grant on Sep 17, 2009 10:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I blame Pedro Feliz
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 17, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we are all to blame
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 17, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s just blame Grant & call it a day.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Sep 17, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Scott Speizio
www.leaguelineup.com/lbucks24
by NuschlerFace on Sep 17, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Dusty Baker
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Sep 17, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are dead on here. For the sake of all that is good and right, why screw with the lineup that tore up the Rockies in the first two games? If it isn’t broken, don’t bork it!
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
by Skaldheim on Sep 17, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if it is broken, for gob’s sake don’t try to fix it using a rusty bent coat hanger when you have a cordless drill all charged up on your work bench.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 17, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cordless? So you’re saying I need to go get a cord and put it on my drill with this rusty bent coat hanger?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, what I’m saying is BRUCE BOCHY IS A F#$%ING IDIOT. I was just trying to calm myself down by talking about coat hangers instead.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 17, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then how does it work without a cord?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wifi
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Sep 17, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure I don’t have a cord for that either.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll sell you a lifetime supply of wifi cords, howie. Just email me your credit card number.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 18, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll have to give you the security code, too.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
100% pure Bochy fail.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Sep 17, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fact, I have a new respect for Edgar as a stand up guy. If it weren’t for the similarity to my own head size, I would be calling for Bochy’s head to roll right about now.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 17, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy has made many horrible decisions this year. IMO not sitting Renteria and starting Garko against a LHP in a game that will likely determine our fate is easily one of the worst.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Sep 17, 2009 10:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Starting Renteria in a must-win game, when it’s clear that he is not healthy enough to contribute, should be a fireable offense. Get Bochy the fuck out of San Francisco, like, yesterday.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Sep 17, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Renteria lost the game because he was the one that batted Molina fourth and kept him in even after it was obvious his hand was battered (and possibly fried).
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 17, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How about all the other games we lost because of you, Edgar? I want an apology for every single one of them.
by Missing Barry on Sep 17, 2009 12:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I blame Bochy more for starting Renteria.
I still believe in Ryan Garko...........
by 49er16 on Sep 17, 2009 1:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have CSN, so I rarely get to see Giants games. Last night I watched the last inning on ESPN, and got a look at Edgar for the first time. Is it just me, or does he resemble an ostrich, with his long neck, big eyes, and look of utter confusion?
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 17, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What is this stick in my hands? What is it used for?
Nobody likes money
by fwoty oz on Sep 17, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To Get Game Winning Hits As Recent as August 30th's Walkoff Grandslam!
Nobody suceeds all the time. Yes Renteria has had a bad year and yes I would have prefered Garko. But, that said, August 30th coulpled with Edgar’s career history of getting hits like that is way to recend to not be a reasonable reason for Bochy to think and decide otherwise.
by giantsrainman on Sep 17, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, you are wrong
Let me count the reasons…
1) Edgar has even gone as far as telling the press that he’s hurt in both shoulders and an elbow, IIRC. I’m going to propose that unless you are a superstar, or if you don’t have a better replacement, you shouldn’t be starting.
2) He has been hitting TERRIBLY lately. Career numbers don’t mean a whole lot when you’re in a slump, especially when that slump coincides with a playoff chase.
3) What is this “career history” of being clutch that I hear about? He had the one hit in the playoffs with the Marlins. With the Giants, the only thing resembling clutch was the grand slam. Maybe I’m missing something, but nothing else really stands out to me, albeit I haven’t followed his career THAT closely.
4) There was absolutely NO justification for starting him other than “sticking with the guys that got us here”. They had just scored a ton of runs the past 3 games, why wouldn’t you stick with that lineup?
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your Ignorance Is Blinding You!!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you play the better hitters the whole game then maybe you won’t need Edgar’s clutchness later on
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Sep 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF YOU LOOK AT HIS CAREER STATS HE’S A LITTLE BIT CLUTCH WITH RUNNERS ON AND WITH RUNNERS IN SCORING POSITION WITH LESS THAN OUTS! HE’S NOT VERY GOOD WITH TWO OUTS, BUT LOAD THE BASES AND HOOOOOOO BOY!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALSO SUPER CLUTCH AS DH!
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it has been proven by many smarter people than myself that there is no such thing as a “clutch” hitter. Even if it were true that he was clutch, that was a long time ago when he was an effective player. He is no longer an effective player, one lucky grand slam notwithstanding. On top of that, he stopped being an effective player even before he got so banged up. The fact to play him is indefensible, period.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 17, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edgar has more career hits than Todd Helton.
2185 to 2114.
Edgar in fact is 13th among active players and #172 all-time.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 18, 2009 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clutch hitting
I have learned from this site that there is no such thing as a “‘clutch’ hitter” but that there IS such a thing as “situational hitting,” which the Giants lack. One might have thought that a clutch hitter is someone who has a high likelihood of productive situational hitting, but apparently people who are “smarter” than AWSU have “proven” that there’s a disconnect between these two concepts. Omitting any defense of Rent, who I agree should have been on the bench, perhaps AWSU or someone else will explain to me the nature of this disconnect. I’d find this enlightening. Or maybe someone will tell me who these many smarter-than-AWSU people are, who have proven that clutch hitters are worth only one WAR, or whatever the statistic so often cited on this site may be.
by campanari on Sep 17, 2009 3:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There's no suching thing as good situational hitting either.
There are good hitters, and there are important situations. Unfortunately, the two rarely coincide in the Giants’ lineup.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 17, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes there is.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 17, 2009 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
There are players who can routinely produce a ground ball to the right side, or a deep fly ball, but only because 1) They have good bat control and are generally good hitter anyway, or 2) Their overall batting approach favors certain situations (for instance, Bengie is good at producing sac flies because he’s an extreme fly-ball hitter overall).
I contend that if most of our bad hitters had the innate ability to produce the situationally desirable outcome on command, they’d be better hitters to being with. As it is, we have a bunch of bad hitters, and it’s unreasonable to expect a bad hitter to create the desired outcome (whether it’s a hit, a walk, a productive out, whatever) at a good rate, simply because they lack the talent to do ANYTHING positive with the bat at a good rate.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 17, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time for Bhaakon to bhaak off
Isn’t this comment beside the point? The question was whether there is such a thing as a clutch hitter or a typically good situational hitter: are there players who do better with RISP than they ordinarily do, and do better than usual when their team needs a baserunner at crucial moments? Are there hitters whose adrenaline and focus goes up sharply and effectively when the situation particularly demands it? (Comparison: are there pitchers who are more likely to be lights out with RISP or in tight ninth-inning situations than when no one is on base or their team has a more comfortable lead? Is Brian Wilson more likely to bear down effectively in save situations than when he pitches two or three runs ahead?) Nothing that Bhaakon says addresses this kind of comparative situation. And in any case, this is a factual matter, not simply a logical one. Bh’s logical contention, even if it were to the point, might show that something is plausible, but it wouldn’t constitute the “proof” that the plausible is true. AWSU claims many smart people have come up with such proof, and I have seen other McCoveyites claim the same, as standard knowledge among the knowledgeable.
by campanari on Sep 17, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, there are not.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Sep 17, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want time-consuming sophisticated statistical analysis and a complete bibliography, you've probably come to the wrong place
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 17, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sometimes do get sophisticated statistical analysis, if not a bibliography, on McC C. That is one of the reasons I read it. But in any case I don’t think anyone is likely to be convinced in a factual matter by an ipse dixit, despite your Latin motto awaiting divinity or at least imperial notoriety. Maybe some other blogger on the site will illuminate this matter for me—I hope so.
by campanari on Sep 17, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One plausible explanation for why clutch hitters don’t exist and players can’t improve their performance in certain situations is the simple fact that MLB players aren’t normal people. To become an MLB player, you have to have a level of focus and “clutch” ability to begin with otherwise you’ll never make your way through the minors and experience big league success. Everyone in MLB is special, and they all focus, on average, the same amount of every at bat (assumed to be the most they’re capable of) as they do in clutch situations. These are the best baseball players in the world, and they’re all able to perform in a “clutch” way, which is why they’re good enough/productive enough to begin with.
by Missing Barry on Sep 17, 2009 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s no suching thing as good situational hitting either.
Spelling aside, this is the statement I was responding to.
There are players who can routinely produce a ground ball to the right side, or a deep fly ballThis directly contradicts the first statement. The Giants may not be good at it, but situational hitting does indeed exist.
You also left out 3) Pitch selection. For Edgar to swing at a pitch high and inside when a ball to the right side was needed isn’t him lacking a skill, it’s a lapse in mental discipline.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 18, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
These statements do not contradict each other.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough:
Good hitters are good situational hitters simply because they are good hitters. I contend that there are no incompetent hitters who are good situational hitters because the skill sets that produce both overall hitting and situational hitting are the same. The exception to this are guys like Molina, whose approach to hitting (in Molina’s case, hitting every ball in the air) happens to coincide with a specific desirable situational outcomes. However, such players aren’t tailoring their approach to the situation, they’re just coincidentally coming up in a situation that favors their style.
As for pitch selection, again, if it were a simple “lapse of mental discipline”, as you put it, then it would be much easier to train these players to become patient in ALL situations. It’s easy for a fan to curse at a player for not laying off a terrible pitch, but actually doing it is a difficult skill to master (and one which few Giants possess).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 18, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am well aware of the difficulty in laying off pitches – shoulder high fastballs were my personal weakness.
First example that comes to mind – Barry Bonds was a great hitter but not a great situational hitter. He generally refused to alter his plate approach for any reason, which was a good idea, given how productive a hitter he was. My problem is the blanket statement ‘situational hitting does not exist’. It does. You can control which pitch you choose to hit, you can generally influence what side of the field you hit towards and you can even try to lift the ball (or beat it into the ground). You can. I’ve done it. You can argue how common or important it is, but it does exist.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 18, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that a batter can tailor their approach to a situation.
I disagree that altering their approach means that they’ll be successful at it.
Like you said, a batter can TRY to hit the ball to a particular said, that doesn’t mean that they’ll be successful at it. And the worse of a hitter they are, the less likely they are to be able to control the outcome of their at bat.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 18, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s at least a half-fallacy to imply that if Barry Bonds had altered his approach situationally, that the results would have been better. For all we know, he drove in / created more runs doing what he did than he would have by hitting a few more ground balls to the right side…
And toward the end, which is when this whole “Bonds is not situational” stuff really seemed to take hold, I don’t know if it’s fair to say that he wasn’t approaching his at bats situationally. Situationally, he could have been thinking something like “If I hit the ball there, which might be a good idea for someone younger / weaker / faster / whatever, I’m just a double play waiting to happen, but if I actually try to hit the ball my way, I have a much better chance of not making an out here and possibly driving in a run or two.”
The whole idea of “situational” hitting is very weird to me in general, though. I get it. I do. I understand the function. I just don’t know if I agree with the utility.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m glad he didn’t make a lot of adjustments… it’s just an example of a great hitter not being a great situational hitter.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 18, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Plausible explanation”: one explains facts, but I don’t know that the non-existence of clutch hitters, or exceptional situational hitters, is a fact. Can anyone give me empirical evidence, from Bill James or Fangraphs or wherever, that it is a fact? As to your suggestion, I agree that major league players are able to perform in a “clutch” way, and that to get to where they are requires a high level of focus, but it surely doesn’t follow from their capacities that people focus to the max each time they come to bat. Players surely get flustered or press too hard, for example, so that they don’t do their hypothetical best. If so, why not suppose that just as these negative responses exist, so for some players positive ones may, improving their performance, and especially so when the pitcher for the other side may make mistakes because in the clutch he is flustered or pressing too hard? What we need are facts about Ethier or Pujols or Fred Lewis et al. in clutch and non-c. situations over a reasonable number of PAs. Maybe someone on this site has some.
by campanari on Sep 17, 2009 8:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here is a link toa blog post dealing with "clutch", itself containing several links to older studies.
Here’s another interesting look at clutch: link
IN general, I think that “there’s no such thing as clutch” is a it of an overstatement, but qhat evidence has been found for “clutch” hitters has placed their advantage somewhere between marginal and statistically insignificant.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 17, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fact
The 2009 Giants can’t hit, situationally, in the clutch, or otherwise.
by koel on Sep 17, 2009 8:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought that's what I said.
In a much wordier, less obvious way.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Sep 17, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even in the Barry Bonds era, erasing 4 run deficits in the 9th...
…must have happened less than 1% of the time.
That game was choked long before it got to the 9th inning and Bochy was far more to blame than Edgar. I have a feeling Bochy started Edgar ONLY because Edgar blabbed to the media about how badly he was hurting. From his 2nd inning AB after his bat exploded to the end of the game he was visibly in physical discomfort even while playing defense.
by hokysmksbw on Sep 18, 2009 12:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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