Cain for Fielder....the rumor that will never die
Someone was going to post this link eventually. You know it to be true.
Truthfully, a part of me really likes trading Cain in the off-season (blasphemy, I know) but I do think I'd want a better return than Prince Fielder (who is a better player than Cain, but one that will come at a much higher expense). It's not going to happen, but if the Giants did put Cain on the market, the return would be huge at his price, and that's really the only way you can trade him. At an insane return
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Only for a Morneau type hitter.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
Fielder’s been a lot better than Morneau this year.
Not advocating a trade, I’m just sayin…
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Sep 15, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I would be fine with the trade if Fielder was about 30 pounds lighter.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
I would be fine with the trade if Fielder Panda was about 30 pounds lighter. And could stay at 3rd
I R 5
by say hey nation on Sep 15, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
BODY BIAS!@
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Why would you think Panda wouldn’t stay at third? Unless you want to annoy groug and suggest that Nate go back there.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Because usually 22 year olds tend to put weight on, not lose it…?
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder how this breaks down in the athlete demographic (when you consider the fat / muscle question for putting on weight).
Definitely, I would think, in the real world most 22 year olds only get fatter. But in the strictly sporting world, I don’t know…
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Sep 15, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Well my impression is the general consensus, especially in baseball, is that they get bigger – even if it’s muscle they’re putting on and not getting fatter. That’s why someone like Cabrera was projected to 1B long before he got moved there, and sadly, that’s the same kind of thing people are looking at Sandoval and saying. Hopefully he maintains his weight, but I’m not too optimistic…
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I still hate the idea of trading Cain, emotionally, though it does make some sense to shop him. That said, if Prince is the return, I wouldn’t do it.
All of Buster’s reasoning about the trade in his chat yesterday was stupid though. “Bumgarner is ready to step in and pitch as well as Cain!”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
What, you don’t think a 20 year old lefty with a high 80’s fastball, fringy at best offspeed stuff, and no MLB experience or track record is as good as Cain right now?
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
bumgarner is years ahead of cain in learning-how-to-win. that’s waaaaay more important than, you know, readiness and stuff. 27 wins in only 2 years of pro ball!!!!!!!!!!
knowing how to win! yeah! RBIZ yeah! wins, lets measure pitchers by WINZ. 1 WINZ FTW
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by haverecords on Sep 15, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Would you trade Cain for Jose Reyes?
by Hoist That Rag on Sep 15, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the trade is pretty even. However, I also can’t bring myself to entertain the idea of trading Cain. He’s my favorite Giant ever.
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Sep 15, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Like most of the Cain trades that have been proposed in the past few years, it’s fair in a vacuum but if you think about it in the overall context of the team, it doesn’t make as much sense.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Talent wise it is even. However,
1) Cain’s contract is much more favorable
2) borderline #1 starters are much more difficult to find than power hitting first baseman. (although you wouldn’t know this from watching the Giants)
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Cain for Fielder + Hardy or weeks, now I’d have to think about that one.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
I was going to float this one. A 2-6 of:
Sanchez
Posey
Fielder
Sandoval
Hardy
would greatly interest me.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Sep 15, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Huh?
You want to trade away Sanchez (Jonathan, I presume), Posey, and Sandoval – and get back Hardy and Fielder? Srsly?
No, and on several levels.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Uhhhh
…so you mean “a batting lineup, 2 through 6, of…”
Never mind.
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
What do you think Bumgarner could net us from Milwaukee? Obviously not Fielder, but I wouldn’t be opposed to shopping MadBum
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by Useful_Idiot on Sep 15, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think there is anyway the Giants would get peak value for bumgarner right now.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 15, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but hypothetically, I wonder what we could get for him
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by Useful_Idiot on Sep 15, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I got the impression from the chat that Olney was thinking more of the Brewers’ side of the trade than the Giants’.
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by EliminateMe on Sep 15, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, then that makes it easy. Lincecum and Cain for Craig Counsell!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
i think you are right. it needs to be shopped and agree MadBum is not the answer. However, Penny could be. I know it’s been all of three starts, but he has looked really good and it could all be explained by a change in league/attitude/emotion….
I know it’s been all of three starts, but he has looked really good and it could all be explained by a change in league/attitude/emotion….
Also, a huge shift in luck.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Would you want to sign penny long term? I wouldn’t. He’s been wildly inconsistent. 2 years at most, and you don’t trade cain away for just a stopgap.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 15, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
longterm?
no, but another year, maybe 2 while bumgarner gets ready? hell yeah.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
The other day, Michael Urban said he wouldn’t trade Bumgarner for Fielder
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by Useful_Idiot on Sep 15, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
iawmu
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by SoFa King Mike on Sep 15, 2009 11:29 AM PDT reply actions
Semi-related semi-hijack:
Two part question:
In comparing Cain and Dirty,
1) Who has more value in a trade (taking into account their relative talent/cost)?
2) Who would you rather keep long-term?
Let me think about this and get back to you
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by Useful_Idiot on Sep 15, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I echo that it’s cain and not remotely close. Sanchez is not signed long term and has not pitched to the level of Cain. Sanchez may be the best #4 in the league, but he’s not a #2 and I doubt he ever will be
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 15, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I have to think Bora$ factors heavily in the equation
…and the last time I checked, one impact bat still occupies a single spot in the batting order.
(plus, I still want to see that bastard on the ground after his walk-off stunt… a Cain fastball maybe?)
well yeah
but those two are so far untouchable it’s not even worth talking about. at least Hanley/Justin Upton could potentially be had with a Cain/AnVil/Noonan or something like that…
"Put your drawers on, and take your gun off."
Oh for some reason I thought BJ when you said Upton (someone mentioned him earlier). If we’re talking Justin and Hanley, I’d call them as untouchable as Mauer and Pujols. Maybe not quite so untouchable for Hanley, but given how freaking good he is, his contract for the next 5 years is one of the biggest bargains in baseball. He should consistently give the Marlins at least $10-15M in extra value above what they pay over those years. I’d call him pretty off limits, too. You could probably throw Matt Kemp in the list, too, him and Upton are ridiculously good, cost controlled, and young. Also untouchable (Cain isn’t anywhere near their class).
by Missing Barry on Sep 16, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think Sabean should shop Cain this offseason. If anything, sit back and see if you get any interesting offers. It’s a win-win: either some idiot GM offers to overpay for Cain, or we keep him. Chances are we’d end up keeping him, which is what I prefer
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I agree, I think Paul Depodesta of Forst should shop cain.
(j/k)
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Sep 15, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
If were trading Cain to Milwaukee
I want Ryan Braun.
Or Fielder +
Of course the Brewers wouldn’t do this so just be happy that you have one of, if not the best #2 starter in baseball and put the phone down. There are no tires to kick.
Grab Some Pine Meat!
But Sabean and Doug Melvin are friends! They talk about possible trades in their free time
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by Useful_Idiot on Sep 15, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Won’t happen. I wouldn’t trade Cain for Fielder straight up. I realize both have had great years, but Cain is more valuable in the sense that he’s a #1 starter on the majority of teams, and still fairly cheap for another 2 years.
Outside of that I would love to get Fielder but with Pablo most likely having to move to first base pretty soon, that would be a bad idea. Though it would be fun to have them hitting 3 and 4 in the lineup. For Fielder I’d trade Bumgarner or Sanchez in a package of some sort.
I’m happy with Pablo staying at third. He’s been more than adequate and he has a great arm. I know he’s only 22, but I don’t expect his weight to cause him to lose his ability to play 3B
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by Useful_Idiot on Sep 15, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not his weight but all the nicked up injuries he’s had this year. The Giants can’t afford for their best player to continually be getting hurt. If he can stay healthier by playing over at first, than so be it.
what?
he hasn’t gotten any that i can remember from playing 3rd, well besides the ball that hit him in the mouth, but that’s not too likely to happen again. He hurt his calf on the basepaths.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I’m gonna come back to the idea of using Wilson as our main trading chip, and specifically, I think there may be the basics for a good two way value trade between us and Tampa Bay. Looking ahead to next year, it seems to me Tampa’s #1 priority has got to be fixing their closer situation; #2 they apparently have some financial issues. Brian Wilson gives hem a reasonably cheap and controllable closer with good history of success (and I agree with Grant, Wilson’s really impressed me with some of his multi-inning efforts the last couple of months), and while we take a hit losing him he’s certainly a more replaceable value than Matt Cain for instance.
In return, I’d want to get Pena (who along with Crawford is one of the contracts they may not be able to afford long term). There’s a lot of talk of the Rays being sick and tired of BJ Upton and really want to move him, so maybe there’s potential for something bigger as well. But I think Wilson/Pena is the beginning of a very equitable deal.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Replacing Wilson with Affeldt and Affeldt with Romo and Romo with pick your middle relief prospect or low rent FA seems vastly preferable to me to replacing Cain with ??? Live relief arms is one thing we’re pretty deep in. It certainly looks like Runzler will be part of the 2010 bullpen for one.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
The problem with this is that there is no way to know if Affeldt could handle the closer job. A lot of the “closer savy” hype is overblown, but there are plenty of examples of relievers who couldn’t handle the pressure.
Who’s an example of a reliever that couldn’t handle the pressure? Are you sure it wasn’t just a case of a bad season or whatever other sample size we’re looking at? I’m really not sure “closer mentality” has any meaningful impact on performance at all for anyone. At most it’s a very small group of pitchers.
by Missing Barry on Sep 16, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I would point to the diamondbacks closer situation when they traded Valverde. They though for sure they would get similar production out of Pena or Lyons. Both were given the opportunity and couldn’t handle the role.
I like stats too, but every now and then common sense has to step in. I think it’s safe to assume that people react differently to pressure situations.
I think it’s safe to assume that people react differently to pressure situations.
Why is it safe to assume that, though? These are professionals, the best of the best, if they don’t react well to pressure they’ll probably never even have a chance to close a game. Stepping on to a mound in the bigs for the first time is pressure, no? Coming in to any game in any leveraged situation is pressure, no? Offensively there are pressure situations, yet we find that players perform just as you’d expect in pressure situations from their non-pressure situations. As for that situation, Pena had a 3.42 FIP last season and Lyon had a 3.84 FIP last season, suggesting they both pitched well and were probably unlucky.
What stats tells us is whether or not things we suspect, like how we feel in a pressure situation, actually affect our actions (if used properly). Smart people, using the stats properly, have found in many aspects of baseball how a player feels doesn’t actually change his actions/behavior – that is, his performance actually stays the same. A good reliever is a good reliever, I strongly suspect the “closer mentality” is mostly a load of BS. If a reliever can get outs in other important situations (like Affeldt has done this year), he can get outs as the “closer”.
by Missing Barry on Sep 16, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s all well and good, but you can’t get yourself locked into the thinking of “everybody’s irreplaceable.” If you’re going to bring in talent you have to have something to deal. The question is, what’s the best talent we have that’s the most replaceable. That’s pretty clearly Wilson to me. And I really don’t see a good argument for saying it’s anybody else on this team.
And I will say they have to bring in some offensive talent this off season. After the display their pitching has put on this year, not bringing in offensive help is really cheating the fans and cheating their players as well. Tim and Matt et all deserve a competent offense around them. And some of it — a lot of it — is going to need to come from elsewhere. 1B or 3B LF, and RF are all in need of upgrades.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
no argument here about the need for more offense. However, watching a bullpen blow leads for Tim and Matt et is just as frustrating as a pathetic offense. Brian Wilson has been the only successful closer since Nen, so if you’re going to hand it to Affeldt, then you had better be sure he can get it done. For me, I’d have to see to believe.
Additionally, Affeldt only has 1 year left on his deal, which means that if he did succeed as a closer he’d get real expensive real quick.
Our bullpen as a whole has the 2nd best ERA and 6th best FIP in baseball this season. I think it’s safe to say Wilson isn’t our only good reliever. I will say, when you look at our K’s and BB’s, though, they haven’t actually performed that well, more middle of the pack, we may be lucky/benefitting from AT&T park suppressing HR’s some…
by Missing Barry on Sep 16, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok, but who then do you believe is their best trade chip? Or do you think they have to do all their upgrading through the FA market (which hasn’t been all that kind to us)?
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
i’ve been thinking a lot about this, and it has to be wilson or dirty. no one else they can afford to part with has nearly as much value. i personally hope it is sanchez.
1. Sanchez
2. Wilson
I have no idea what each one could fetch in a trade at this point, nor would I prefer to trade either. But obviously the player coming back in the trade would change my feeling on if they were expendable or not. If Wilson brings back Crawford or Uggla, then it would be worth trading him and finding out what we have at closer.
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