Giants Organizational Philosophy
by tedfordfan on Aug 7, 2009 6:31 AM PDT
28 comments
This is pretty much speculation based on some selective quotes (which I don't have the inclination to look up right now) and my own ruminations- so take this for what it's worth. It's prompted by the recent Shawon Dunston quote in the SI article about Kung Fu Panda.
If the Giants emphasize anything as an organization it is playing the game off of the fastball.
For pitchers, they look for live arms with good movement and try to emphasize control. Jim Callis (or is it John Manuel) says that fastball velocity, movement and control are the keys to evaluating pitching prospects, and from what I can tell based on the Giants drafts, this is definitely their philosophy and what they try to emphasize drafting, developing and signing players.
For hitters, they look for guys who are athletic and can hit the fastball. They look for raw bat speed and attacking fastballs in the zone, as they are the pitches most frequently thrown. I think our Latin America signings and draft picks tend exhibit these traits. We look for good defenders with superior hand-eye coordination because no matter who you are, you're going to see predominantly fastballs in your professional life. Other skills are subsequently built around this (in theory).
Now, I think that this philosophy has worked well for evaluating and developing pitchers, but falls short (but isn't necessarily flawed) in developing and evaluating hitters. Clearly, there needs to be an emphasis on both pitch recognition (which many of our hitters don't have) and discipline (which many of our hitters don't have). The "aggressiveness" approach is fundamentally OK, as long as one understands the parameters of that approach - attacking fastballs IN THE STRIKE ZONE. Unfortunately, this basic parameter seems to be lacking when it comes to Giants hitters because (as mentioned above) they lack recognition and discipline. The hyperbole expressed by Dunston takes a fundamentally sound approach, distorts it, and makes it tremendously flawed.
So, in conclusion, I agree that Shawon should STFU when speaking about the hitting aspect of the game and limit himself to coaching what he was actually hired to coach - infielders - i.e. infield defense.
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LOL @
So, in conclusion, I agree that Shawon should STFU
Flashed me back to high school English and learning about thesis, body, conclusion. Bet my teacher never envisioned a writing concluding that “Shawon should STFU.”
Good stuff, too.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
by bkrhater on Aug 7, 2009 7:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s because your English teacher never heard Shawon Dunston giving advice on hitting.
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by EliminateMe on Aug 7, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read that SI article. Why would the Giants hire 2 “coaches” with differing philosophies? Lansford’s telling them to take pitches and work the count and Shawon (who is NOT the hitting coach) is of the “walks are for pussies” school of hitting. What a pain in the ass for the players.
I remember when I played soccer in college and our head coach was on one side of the field yelling for an offside trap, and the assistant coach was on the other saying to drop back and not play the trap. Eventually at half time the sweeper told them both to STFU. Mixed messages from the coaching staff is annoying.
by Merope on Aug 7, 2009 8:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A flawed assumption?
Are you sure that the following is true?
Lansford’s telling them to take pitches and work the count
Nowhere in the SI article is this stated. All it has is a quote from Lansford that the team lacks “professional hitters”, and a description of his occasional reaction to the hitter’s performance. Lat’s face it, if Lansford was advocating working the count then he would be hitting himself over the head with that clipboard much more than “sometimes” – more like he would be doing it almost all the time.
While I do believe that Lansford coaches his hitters not to swing at bad pitches, I don’t believe that he at all emphasizes working a count or even taking a strike that isn’t in their power zone. I’ve seen at least one article that quotes Lansford as emphasizing aggressiveness and swinging at the first stirke. So, what I’m saying is that Lansford and Dunston aren’t as vastly dissimilar in their hitting philosophies as almost everybody has inferred from this SI article. Therefore, IMO, Dunston’s not the only one that needs to be jettisoned before we begin to see much of a change in our hitters.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Aug 7, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the Giants’ clubhouse, meanwhile, the debate rages over walks versus hits, on-base percentage versus batting average. Lansford wants his hitters to be selective, to wear out pitchers. Dunston wants them aggressive.
that’s what the SI article says. It isn’t a quote from him and it may be an incorrect interpretation of Carney’s philosophy based on the interview with him, but that’s the impression the article gives.
Of course, this passage is the first (or at least it’s very rare) I’ve seen or heard that indicates that Carney wants the hitters to be more selective. I thought the walking is for pussies line came from him. Of course, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t think that as being selective and walking aren’t necessarily the same thing, but you’d think that more selectivity would lead to more walks….and more hits.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 7, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the “walking is for pussies” line came from Shawon Dunston, although in different words(something like, it’s cheating the game to walk).
by superk1ng on Aug 7, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shawon may be right. If taking a walk is cheating the game, it would explain why so many fans call Barry Bonds a cheater.
Swinging at a slider in the dirt, on the other hand, is graciously giving back to the game. That’s why so many fans consider Bengie Molina baseball’s version of Mother Theresa.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 7, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Unfortunately they also seem to look for hitters who aggressively attack the slider out of the zone.
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by Roger on Aug 7, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also aggressively attack the ball headed directly for them.
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by Johnny Disaster on Aug 7, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait-- SELF-defense doesn't count toward my defense rating?
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by Mayor of 311 on Aug 7, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately they also seem to look for hitters who aggressively attack theslider out of the zonepitch that hits them.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
by bkrhater on Aug 7, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post. All organizations have their strenghts and weaknesses and it’s pretty clear what those are with the Giants. As much as the offense pains us, we have been extremely fortunate/strong at development & scouting to have the pitching that we do.
I would venture to guess (and I have no data whatsoever to back this up and am too lay to bother looking for any) that aside from maybe Boston we have the best pitching in the game throughout the organization. If that’s true, and I say that it is, then Sabean should be credited for that with the same vigor with which he is blamed for the hitting.
by I'm_a_Man on Aug 7, 2009 9:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Does Sabean deserve all the credit?
It seems to me that Sabean was very responosible for the sorry state of our farm system in the first half of this decade. It wasn’t just that he made bad picks, but that he just gave away high picks and was openly disdainful of their value. Also, John Barr should get a lot of credit for stocking the system with good young pitchers the last 2 years.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Aug 7, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Sabean’s philosophy was something like, “use the farm system as trade bait to acquire veteran hitters” from when he took over in ’97 until about 2 years ago. But that changed because prospects are now more valuable than they used to be. I think he should have recognized the dearth of talent in the system and done something about it much sooner, but when Bonds was on the team the philosohphy was “win now with veterans.” And in ’97 ’02 and ’03 we were cursed. But that philosophy worked for the time it was implemented, shortsighted as it was.
Also, this John Barr character should get some credit but ultimately my point is this: Sabean is the man responsible for the product on the field. He certainly has flaws but he also has strenghts and it just gets a WEE-BIT tiresome to hear the constant “the grass is greener” refrain.
by I'm_a_Man on Aug 7, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean philosophy
I know he claimed that, but the only times he traded prospects for hitters were in acquiring A.J.P. and Shea Hillenbrand.
"The questions are so stupid. I don't believe in rivalries. I don't believe in curses. Wake up the damn Bambino, maybe I'll drill him in the ass."
- Pedro Martinez, asked about the Curse of the Bambino
by achiappanza on Aug 11, 2009 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kent, Snow, Joe Carter, Ellis Burks, David Bell, Kenny Lofton, Bill Mueller, Randy Winn
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Aug 11, 2009 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kent: Matt Williams was not a prospect
Snow: Allen Watson was not a prospect
Burks: Darryl Hamilton was not a prospect
Bell: Shawn Estes was not a prospect
Mueller: He was drafted and developed by the Giants
Winn: If you really want to call Jesse Foppert a prospect as of 2005, I guess you’re legally allowed to do that.
And I don’t know who was traded for Carter or Lofton. I seriously doubt anyone involved in those trades was really a prospect though.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Aug 11, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, didn't read carefully enough
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Aug 11, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of STFU… Could we all STFU already about, “SABEEN DOEZNT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DRAFTING!! JOHN BAR IS DA MAN AND HE DOES IT ALL HISELF!!!” Seriously, I don’t want to read another description of how it’s all John Barr that’s caused us to be awesome in the farm system.
Incidentally, John Barr had nothing to do with Cain, Lincecum, or Sanchez, or even Wilson (I believe), the pitchers who came up from our farm system and are now pitching in the majors. So let’s just stop it now. Please.
Sorry, don’t mean to lash out at you. I’m just tired of hearing that common refrain.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 7, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abner Doubleday didn’t invent baseball, and neither did Alexander Cartwright — it was John Barr! John Barr also invented garlic fries, beer, and pine tar, and built Pac Bell Park SBC Park AT&T Park Mays Field from scratch with his bare hands!
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 7, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
John Barr’s a 10-foot-tall beast man, who showers in Vodka.. and feeds his baby Shrimp Scampi..
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Aug 7, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If John Barr hadn’t invented the internet, you wouldn’t be able to post your opinion here.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 9, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure that the dark days of the draft in the early 2000’s can not be placed totally on Sabean’s shoulders. Some of it came from management who were towing the line of we need to win now as we won’t have the game’s best player very much longer and if that means sacrificing some draft picks in exchange for some “proven” veterans – then so be it. Sabean came up in the New York system as a scount or player development person I believe so all the credit for the recent resurgence shouldn’t be placed on Barr, although he certainly deserves praise. Let us be glad that it did not take long to go from a doormat farm system to one of the top farm systems. Thank you Brian and company.
by APGiantsFan on Aug 7, 2009 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
C'mon, where's your memory gone
Sabean gleefully gave up 1st and 2nd round draft picks when signing marginal FAs, and then crowed about it in the press. Remember the Michael Tucker debacle? Sabean deliberately timed the signing in a way that ensured we’d lose our 1st round pick. He could have had Tucker and the 1st round pick if he wanted to keep it.
Now, it was true that MacGowan was handcuffing him somewhat on the budget and philosophy front, but there’s no way he was yelling at Sabean to sign Tucker and give up our next 1st round draft pick. A good and smart GM would have still used the picks on guys that would sign for under-slot, or just low-balled the guys they did pick in the view that we’d get a comp pick in the next year’s draft if our guy didn’t sign. When you’re drafting at the end of the 1st and 2nd rounds, we’re only talking about signing bonuses between $200K-$800K – that small amount wasn’t going to bust the Giants’ budget in any given year.
As for handing out credit for the recent resurgence of our farm system, you’ll notice in my previous post that I stated that Sabean doesn’t deserve all the credit, but neither does John Barr:
John Barr should get a lot of credit for stocking the system with good young pitchers the last 2 years.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Aug 8, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Organizational philosophy needs to be on pitching and OBP/AVG. If you’ve got a pitcher and a hitter with equal promise, take the pitcher. If you’ve got a power hitter or a high-average guy, take the high average.
AT&T is a cavern. The Giants are where they are not because of hitting, but because of pitching. During the run of good Giants teams a decade or so ago, we had great hitting and mediocre pitching, and were successful. Now we’re got great pitching and awful hitting, and we’re successful. The current Giants are on paper worse than they were ten years ago, but since we’re playing to the strengths of our park we are experiencing the same success. All these people who scream about our need for a power hitter are dead wrong; our problem is not a lack of power but a lack of power AND average. Put 3-4 high average, high OBP guys in the middle of our lineup, and we will score enough runs to win most of the time. The complete turnaround of the offense (21 runs over 3 games in Houston) is due to the addition of hitters like Freddy Sanchez, who can get on base and drive in runs with singles. We’ve got speed, defense, and pitching; add OBP and we’re golden.
by quincy0191 on Aug 8, 2009 7:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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