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Should Lincecum pitch every 5 days ... starting NOW?

If the Giants start juggling their rotation starting next week, he could get in 2 extra starts, with his last start on the final day of the regular season. Or, if the Giants aren't desperate to have him pitch the final day, he could say have at least 4 days rest and still have his last start, on 10/1 or 10/2, same as if the Giants stay with a 5 man rotation the rest of the way, and be rested for (not to look too far forward or jinx anything) Game 1 of the NLDS.  In my opinion, if the Giants really think they're in the race this year, they have to do that.  The key date is Monday 8/17 in Citi Field, to see whether Tim's pitching that game on 4 days rest and skip the #5 pitcher until the 1st game of the Colorado series on 8/21, or if they stay with a 5 man rotation and Lincecum doesn't pitch until Tue 8/18 @ Great American.  I'd be amazed to see Lincecum *not* pitch on 8/17, as if he does go on 8/17 the Giants schedule is then perfectly set to allow the #5 pitcher to be skipped on 8/17 and then the 8/31 rest day.  The #5 pitcher could again be skipped on the open rest day of 9/10.

Star-divide

I think it's a no brainer to have LIncecum get as many starts in on normal rest as possible.  The real question is do they also try to have Cain pitch every 5 days, and have him push Zito back one day, possibly as early as this weekend against Cinci.  Cain will have 4 days of rest and be ready to pitch the 2nd game of that series right after Lincecum goes.  But right now, it seems the scheduled rotation for that series is still Tim, Zito and then Cain, and sticking with a R-L-R order. But if you're going to start throwing Tim out every 5 days, then you'll lose that lefty-righty alternating order in no time at all, so you may as well start now. 

Bueno?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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I don’t think so…… Mark Prior and Kerry Wood come to mind?

by OTTOMATIC on Aug 5, 2009 6:35 PM PDT reply actions  

I Agree

For the rest of the season the 5th sarter should be skipped whenever possible as long as none of the other four have to pitch on just 3 days rest. Finally, I find the fear that this might turn Lincecum and Cain into repeats of what happened to Prior and Wood laughable.

by giantsrainman on Aug 5, 2009 6:38 PM PDT reply actions  

why?

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Aug 5, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because of Bochy’s top 5 people skills.

by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 5, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

What happened to Wood and prior was different

They averaged 125 and 118 pitches per start respectively in September and October of 2003. That’s a much bigger red flag than starting every fifth day, IMO.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 5, 2009 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow that’s a lot. Tim’s averaging almost 110 pitches per game this year though. :\

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Aug 5, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think 107.7 isn't that egregious in this case.

If he was a couple years younger, or had an injury history, it would be an issue. I wouldn’t go any higher, though.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 5, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to rant, but...

…I think the whole pitch count thing is a whole lot more complex than most people want to make it out to be. Sure, there is strong evidence that pitchers - especially younger pitchers still of the age as to be in the so-called “injury nexus”- will break down more often as they throw more pitches, start after start. And I’m definitely in the ‘err on the side of caution’ camp — I still cringe every time I think of Bochy extending Lincecum last year for his CGs.

But pitch count is about as simple as a statistic can possibly be, and as a result, it doesn’t tell us anything that basic common sense doesn’t. It’s like evaluating how hard a trip was on a car by total revolutions. It’d be absurd to evaluate a car’s workload without taking into consideration the type and age of the car, its previous driving history, how the car was used in each specific gear on the trip, what the terrain and road conditions were like, etc., etc. – just as simply counting the number of pitches doesn’t take into account who the pitcher is and what his injury history is, what his mechanics are like generally and how consistent they are in the particular game at hand, types of pitches thrown during the game (and their varying strain on the pitcher’s arm), stretch v. windup and other contextual factors, and so on. Again, I’m not trying to make one of these stupid old-timer “in my day, we never heard of a pitch count” arguments; but I do wish we could use pitcher abuse points or some other, more useful stat; and when that’s not an option, I wish we could ascribe a little bit less importance to such a flawed metric.

I only bring this up because I find it kind of silly when people seem to have an arbitrary number in mind that is the “right” number of pitches. If there is such a thing, it almost certainly varies depending on a number of factors, from pitcher to pitcher and from appearance to appearance.

All that off my chest (pfew!), I am definitely opposed to shuffling the rotation to pitch Lincecum or Cain more down the stretch. The whole “but they’d be on regular rest” thing seems like a forest-for the-trees argument to me — by that reasoning, a pitcher could make 40 starts a year, if the season were extended another 30 games. Of greater importance, I think, is that we don’t make these guys spend any bullets they don’t have to. As much as Prior and Wood were overworked on a game-by-game basis in 2003, we should also remember that the postseason tacked on a ton of extra innings to their regular-season totals, overextending them even further on a macro level. I’d be willing to bet Prior threw 80 or 90 more innings in 2003 than he did in 2002, playoffs included. I just don’t think it’s worth jeopardizing Lincecum or Cain if we don’t have to. But then again, I’m still in rebuilding mode,so I’m less concerned about making the postseason this year than I am about setting things up for a nice little run of great baseball for several years in a row starting in 2010 or 2011. I realize this colors my opinion drastically…

"I'm not sure what the hell charisma is, but I have the feeling it's Willie Mays." --Ted Kluszewski

by Rick Parker (Lewis) Can't Lose on Aug 5, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

ugh

I’m sorry folks — I always forget that I can’t set things off in dashes lest they be struck through like above. My bad…

"I'm not sure what the hell charisma is, but I have the feeling it's Willie Mays." --Ted Kluszewski

by Rick Parker (Lewis) Can't Lose on Aug 5, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree actually and I can’t really think of any games this season where Lincecum or Cain had outrageous pitch counts that didn’t make sense in the context of the game. Last year, there were some ridiculous choices though – Bochy’s done a much better job with it this year, imo.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Aug 5, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

It certainly makes his job a lot easier when both of them have been much more economical with their pitch counts this year.

by Hobbes2d on Aug 6, 2009 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

and the games he’s leaving them in are a lot more meaningful

Thing A

by sam23 on Aug 6, 2009 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

This year’s bullpen must be taken into account as well. It is a much easier decision to throw Affeldt in there to bridge the gap than it was last year. A tired Lincecum was still a better option than our bullpen last year, at least probably according to Bochy.

by NorCalBruin08 on Aug 6, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder if there is much of a benefit to staying on the exact same throwing schedule, and if it is on par with the benefit of an extra day of rest 2-3 times a month. My gut tells me the extra day of rest would be preferable, but I honestly have no idea.

by pantalones on Aug 5, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

because we don’t have the curse of the bill goat on us of course

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 5, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

What happens if you are wrong?

by jctGamer on Aug 5, 2009 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

isn’t that the same argument used by fundamentalist christians?

by FPTV on Aug 5, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,

by AndYourBirdCanSing on Aug 5, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes. Tighter pitch counts, though.

by Evan on Aug 5, 2009 7:57 PM PDT reply actions  

I could get on board with this plan

We're all basically Pedro Feliz.

by SF Pete on Aug 5, 2009 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Projected Innings Pitched

Current:
   Lincecum is at 157 IP in 22 GS. His career high (last year) is 227 IP.
   Matt Cain is at 148 IP in 22 GS. Cain’s career high (also last yr) is 217 IP.

If they go with a 5 man rotation all the way, projects to:
  Lincecum would have 11 more starts. If he avgs the same ~7.1 IP he’d finish with ~235 IP.
  Cain would also have 11 more starts. If he avgs the same 6.7 IP he’d finish with 222 IP.
Both of those are about on line with their previous year’s totals, or 1 extra start.

If Lincecum pitches on at least 4 days of rest (5 when there’s a rest day on the 5th day), then he’d get in one extra start.
Cain could probably get in one extra start as well.

But there are some good points: while I wouldn’t worry much about the extra 5-10 IP during the regular season, if the Giants did make the post-season, then there are those extra games as well.
Also, I did notice that if Lincecum pitched every 5th day, he would miss a possible pivotal series against Colorado at the end of August. (He would pitch against the Rockies the previous week.)

Here’s his matchups with a 5 man rotation:
  Cin, LAD, @Cin, Col, *Col*, @Phi, *SD*, (misses LAD), Col, *LAD*, ChC, Ari
Pitching every 5th day:
  Cin, LAD, NYM, Col, (misses Col), *Ari*, @Phi, *Mil*, LAD, Col, (misses LAD), @Ari, ChC, Ari

5-man rotation: @Cin, Col, SD, @LAD
every 5th day: NYM, Ari, @Mil, LAD, @Ari

Looking at this, I actually believe my original recommendation would be less wise. If the rest of the rotation was terrible, they might be needed to rely on Lincecum, but the others are doing fine. Either way, Lincecum misses a series against LA. But every 5th day, Lincecum would also miss a series against the Rockies. Is an extra game against an Arizona, Mets or Brewers team matter as much? Since beating them head-to-head can add just as much as winning an extra game, I think taking the head to head matchup is more important.

Some of that depends on if the Giants are in the WC hunt, or if perhaps they need to overtake the Dodgers to get in. But given the current situation (6.5 behind LAD for division, 0.5 in front of Col, 1.0 ini front of ChC and 2.0 in front of Stl for the WC), games against Colorado and ChC might be more important.

And agreeing with Bhaakon, Prior went from 167.2 IP (combined between minors and ChC) in 2002 then to 216 in 2003, which isn’t an unreasonable increase. But from Sept 1, his pitch counts were 131, 129, 109, 124, 131, 133. In the previous 24 starts, he had surpassed 124 just once (127; also 3 gms at 123 or 124). Then, in the playoffs, he threw 133, 116 (in 7+ IP in a game that ended 12-3 and was 8-0 after 3 innings) and 119 in that last game … sorry any Cubs fans, that would be the Steve Bartman game where Prior was throwing a 3 hit shutout entering the 8th inning, up 3-0 … and by the time they came up for the bottom of the 8th it was 3-8.

by 18 Mile on Aug 5, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not really related to your point but

Daaaamn, Lincecum is averaging 7.1 IP per start

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Aug 5, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Too bad about the formatting snafu

But this was a good post. Thanks for doing the math.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 6, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

meh.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 5, 2009 7:59 PM PDT reply actions  

Its funny that we as fans have started thinking about this already, but I have this sinking feeling that it hasn’t even crossed Bochy’s mind yet. He is probably more worried about whether he makes it home for dinner or not tonight

by m34josh on Aug 5, 2009 8:17 PM PDT reply actions  

I don’t know about this. I think it’d be a safer bet to keep searching for that fifth starter. If we did make the playoffs, Cain and Lincecum could be totally burnt out.

Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete

by NateisGreat on Aug 5, 2009 8:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Sorry, I think I misread your post. I do like this idea, but I doubt we will see it happen. Like Josh said before me, Bochy probably isn’t even thinking about this at all.

Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete

by NateisGreat on Aug 5, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bochy tries not to think at all. Ever!!!

Proud supporter of the Fightin' Hydrants.

by Little Napoleon on Aug 5, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

By my count the only real opportunity to squeeze in an extra Lincecum start would come in September right before we go to LA. With a day off before the series, we could start Sanchez as scheduled, then skip Martinez for Lincecum in the second game.

But anything could happen in the next six weeks, so all this planning ahead could be rendered moot.

by FPTV on Aug 5, 2009 9:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Hmmm... I only get one extra start the way I count it

Every 5th day (12): 8/7,12,17,22,27, 9/1,6,11,16,21,26, 10/1
5-man rotation (11): 8/7,12,18,23,28, 9/3,8,14,20,25, 10/1
A 5th starter could get as many as 12 or as few as 9 starts.

If we keep all five starters in the loop, Lincecum will get one fewer start but will face the Rockies three times instead of twice in the first scenario.

Since 4 of the 5 off-days are from August 31st on, I would stay with the 5-man through August and revisit the issue then. This way Lincecum gets to catch his breath a little before the stretch run, and he ends up facing the Rockies on 8/28 instead of the #5 starter.

by pantalones on Aug 5, 2009 9:40 PM PDT reply actions  

it’s vitally important that we start Lincecum and Cain as much as possible to give them a chance to win the Cy Young

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 5, 2009 9:46 PM PDT reply actions  

That could split the vote.

We need to pick one candidate and maximize his starts. I vote for Cain going on short rest in September.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 5, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cole Hamels called. He says no.

by khenderson on Aug 5, 2009 10:26 PM PDT reply actions  

I don’t know if I advocate getting them both as many starts as possible, for the risk of tiring them out both for the playoffs and for future years. But I do advocate shuffling the rotation enough so that Matt and Tim start as much as possible when the Rockies and Dodgers series come around. The thought of ‘5th starter du jour’ going against the Colorado or LA offenses scares me.

The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS

by norcalnick on Aug 5, 2009 11:10 PM PDT reply actions  

I want to go to there.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 6, 2009 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think trying to get to the playoffs is important, and this gives us the best opportunity for that. I also think both Cain and Lincecum have been handled very reasonably this year, and I don’t worry about the effects of extra regular season starts for them. What I worry about is the combination of extra starts + a playoff run. Pitchers (especially young pitchers) that throw a lot of playoff innings in addition to their regular season workload tend to regress the following season, likely because of the stress put on their arm the previous year. The thought of that worries me with Cain + Lincecum.

As for the projected totals for the regular season? Those don’t worry me – 107 pitches per start is hardly a cause for concerns, and Cain and Lincecum have both shown the ability to pitch a large number of innings in a season. They also won’t be undergoing a huge jump from the previous season.

by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 7:17 AM PDT reply actions  

I would alter the rotation depending on the match up, if the alter rotation = Cain/Tim facing the other teams 1 or 2 pitcher then yes, if not then I would let it slide b/c our Zito and Sanchez could out pitch a 3/4 on any given night.

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 6, 2009 7:37 AM PDT reply actions  

Of course Bochy is thinking about it.

This is classical stuff that managers always think about. I’m sure is analysis isn’t as deep as provided above, but he might say, “Timmy howz your arm feeling today” “Can you go out there and give us at least 7 strong innings?” The extra day of rest once or twice a month helps keep these guys fresh, and you want them fresh for the playoffs and the world series.

by bradleybear on Aug 6, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Are we thinking of the same Boch? track record with other “classical stuff that managers always think about” is the greatest.

by Bryappie on Aug 6, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Probably....

but I’d also try to be a bit stricter on his pitch counts as a result.

by NeifiChicken on Aug 6, 2009 2:05 PM PDT reply actions  

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