Baggs: Sabean and Bochy likely back for more
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 11:35 AM PDT
484 comments
I'm watching Baggs' live chat this morning. This exchange came up:
Q: Bruce Bochy and Brian Sabaen's contracts are both expired after the season. How successful do the Giants need to be (playoffs? world series appearance?) for Neukom to bring them back?
| 11:31 | baggs: Pretty good chance they'll be back based on the team's progress to date. Remember, Neukom's goal was to be .500 this year. They're ahead of schedule. And they had what most observers believe was another decent draft. The minor league system is healthier. It seems like Neukom has a great respect for the way Brian and Bruce go about their jobs. When I asked him just prior to the All-Star break if Bochy deserved credit, he said yes, the manager has created a good esprit de corps and has put players in position to succeed. I've been told all parties intend to honor a pledge not to negotiate extensions until after the season, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've already come to some kind of loose arrangement. If they go to the playoffs, it'll be all the more automatic. |
What do y'all think? Ready for more? Have the GM and coach done well enough to come back for more? Admittedly, the Giants have done much better this season than I anticipated. But I can't help but shake the feeling that the team could have done even better with a different skipper.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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I’m bummed. On the other hand, you never know who they would get to replace those guys.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Aug 4, 2009 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This. The fact that the team is doing well with Bochy at the helm, despite his problems, shows you that as long as a team has talent, it can win even when being managed by an autistic chimpanzee.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
imagine how good we’d be with a good manager….
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it proves that the manager is largely inconsequential. Of course, I’ll take that back if Cain and Timmy’s arms fall off from overuse.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The manager doesn't really do much
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Aug 4, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OTOH
If the Giants are in the World Series and Bochy hands Cain the game ball in the seventh inning of Game 6, I promise the sniper fire didn’t come from me.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
:(
I thought I didn’t care… then I fell in love with Panda and now I’m not so sure anymore. - Smoke On The Water
by jhiat00 on Aug 5, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone gotten a question answered yet? I submitted one about frandsen, not selected though.
VOTE SANDOVAL
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Aug 4, 2009 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have
I asked the question about Wheeler,
by superk1ng on Aug 4, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great question; I agree w/ Baggs.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 4, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s not a difficult one to answer these days.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I wonder where Neal would be in BA’s top 100. 40-50 maybe?
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replying to myself
Actually upon reconsideration it’d probably be in the 75-100 range.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
make sense. if he does as well in AA, then he’d definitely be top 50
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A question of mine that I wish he had answered
How concerned should we be about MadBum’s recent performance. Are there any truth to the reports of his decreased velocity?
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I basically asked the same question about his velo.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I asked him if he had any insight as to the plan for Neal’s progression. Is there any plan to promote him this season, or are they having him focus on having a full healthy, non-rehab season at one level before moving/challenging him.
Bummed it wasn’t picked. Dude has had my interest piqued since his draft day, and now he’s finally healthy and getting a chance to put together a very nice season.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I asked the same question basically. unfortunately, Baggs’s answer to the Neal/AnVil question was just negative on AnVil and no substantive evaluation of Neal, which is what I hoped to hear.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he ignored my question lol
I asked him if he thinks the front office uses advanced statistical analysis as a tool, and whether he thinks Sabean and Bochy truly understands the concept of Weighted On Base Average and tRA, and if WAR / RAR is ever discussed when trades are considered.
No luck, though.
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, but…earlier this season they talked about that one guy in the FO that does the stats analysis thing for them. I think they said he’s been doing it for 15 years. Seems like someone else could do better.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who knows whether the Brass actually listens to the guy
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
I doubt he gets much say in things
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet that’s not even his job. It’s probably his hobby and they thought to spin it as a “Hey, we get you nerds! Really!” to appease the vocal minority.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bengie: Like an Aurilia kidney stone, slow-moving and tough to get out.
by juanboy on Aug 5, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
his name is Jeremy Shelley
http://sfgiants.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/02/the_numbers_game.html
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeshayah
He’s not been there for 15 years.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahh, didnt see the 15 years part
But I heard he’s their lead numbers guy, not to mention he leads them in coolest name
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeshayah Goldfarb is the Coordinator of Baseball Operations/Quantitative Analysis
Actually, i think Shelley was promoted recently.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, him. I didn’t wanna take the time to look his name up.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/Baggs reads jctGamer’s question
//presses DELETE
Baggs – “Nerd.”
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
funny that’s what a girl in highschool did, IRL.
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh she read my question, laughed, said sorry, and pressed delete IRL. It’s ok though I should have known better than to try for the Asian Male / White Female thing. I was young and naive back then.
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently, you’re no Geno Espinelli.
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve pretty much assumed that would happen if the Giants had a good season.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Aug 4, 2009 11:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh
I’m not excited about it, but it’s not the worst thing ever. Plus it would be basically impossible to fire them after this season.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 11:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder about that. There is a history of coaches taking team’s to the playoffs and even deep in the playoffs getting fired (usually because the org doesn’t think they can take the team to the next level): Paul Whitehead, Doug Collins, Tony Dungy. Buck Showalter’s been fired twice immediately after taking teams to the playoffs (once their first appearance ever, and once the Yanks first appearance in 14 years). There’s actually lots of those kinds of examples. Although maybe the moral here is don’t make too many repeat apparances in the playoffs without winning a championship, and don’t be a world class ass.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 4, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or another moral of the story: hire Showalter this November and fire him the next month. Then hire whomever you want.
3. Profit!
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly, it didn't work for the Rangers
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Aug 4, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
outlier
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe you forgot Dusty
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he wasn’t fired. his contract was up and he wasn’t re-signed.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering we just went to the World Series, that’s basically a firing.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he wanted out, too. if anything, it was mutual.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I specifically remember Dusty constantly saying, “Yeah, I might have to look around at other coaching opportunities. The Cubs seem like a team that would really appreciate me.”
I laughed when Sabean finally said, “Dusty’s talked himself out of town. We’re not bringing him back,” and he did so right before Dusty was going to be free to talk to other teams. Leverage gone.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If memorey serves he had Money issues involeing the IRS. The Giatns had told him they were not going to pay him what he asked/needed so what is a guy supose to do?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 5, 2009 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dusty and Magowan had a pout off, with each upset about the share of credit the other was taking for the team’s success. I’m reminded of the classic corporate saying, there’s no limit to what you can accomplish as long as you don’t care who gets the credit.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 11, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I recall it, Dusty wanted to make sure he received proper credit for what he did with the team, making them a regular playoff contender, so his contract value could get maximized. Magowan made it known that he didn’t want Dusty to think he was solely responsible for the team’s success, and that Sabean played a very big part, too, in the team’s success. It got pissy from there.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 11, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But those are typically situations where a team has been good in previous years, and they don’t get them where the team wants them to be. Like the Sharks and Rod Wilson (was it Rod? I can’t remember).
Typically, if a team that’s expected to be bad goes to the playoffs, the manager will get re-signed.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly not the case of Showalter in NY. When he showed up they hadn’t had better than 5th(!) place finish in 5 years. In his 2nd year there he got them above .500 and into second place. His third year he got them into 1st place, albeit in a strike shortened year with no playoffs. And in his 4th year he finally got them into the playoffs and was summarily fired.
I was actually wrong about him in Arizona. They failed to make the playoffs in 2000 when he was fired. But he had just taken them to a 1st place finish in their second year of existence the year prior to that.
And yeah, can’t believe I forgot about Dusty. Doesn’t matter that he wasn’t fired, they wouldn’t be firing Bochy either.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 5, 2009 6:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Buck Showalter kind of a renowned prick though?
IIRC, he was loathed by almost everyone.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Aug 5, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only person ever known to like Buck Showalter was Joe Girardi — renowned prick grade level2.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 5, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also groaned a little on Baggs’ UZR question.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 11:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I posted a reply on that, but I doubt he will answer it
I don’t think he understands how UZR works.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Aug 4, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was still a better answer than 99% of the MSM would give. I’ll forgive him.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I was hoping he’d make a point that watching something with your eyes (“my eyes tell me…etc”) doesn’t always mean you can accurate assess something. I think fans like to think they’ve got some great insight into the game by watching a lot of TV or going to the park a lot, but ultimately, it doesn’t mean a ton.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say the same about the currently available defensive metrics.
UZR above all else is just is ridiculous as strawhats, barstools, etc…
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 4, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You take your UZR hate elsewhere! I liked the gist of his message, use both, but I wish he would have explained UZR better.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOLD IT RIGHT THERE--
What is wrong with barstools?
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t really understand this thought. Is the base data from which UZR is derived, not recorded by humans?
by khenderson on Aug 4, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is, but I think it’s an amalgamation of the opinions of a few different people situated throughout the park?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 4, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it really? I remember reading something about a Seattle observer bias a fews years back.
by khenderson on Aug 4, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty excited for the new system they are test running at AT&T. The defensive camera thingy, that should be amazing.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
too bad SF is unlikely to use it
They picked our park because of geographic location. I hope the Giants Brass use it, but nothing about their moves suggest they put much care or emphasis into objective evaluation
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They might. If there is one thing Sabean has contistantly valued , even in the steriod era, it is defense.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 5, 2009 6:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but...
I think their value on defense is more on players they perceive as good defenders. Edgar Renteria, Aaron Rowand, etc.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That does not mean they won’t change how the go about gauging that value. And Renterria does your point a disservice. I think it was pretty plain the SS Giants Brass wanted was Furcal. Renteria always was meant as a bandage or tourniquet to stop the massive suck at SS and not much more than that
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that’s the thing. We’ve given Sabean the chance to change and catch up to the modern baseball knowledge, and he still shows no signs that he understands any of it. The only change I’ve seen over the last 5 years out of Sabean is a stronger emphasis on building up the farm system, but in terms of FA signings and player valuation, it’s pretty obvious he still just doesn’t get it. And if he doesn’t get it by now, what makes you think he ever will?
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two points I want to make clear.
1. I am definitely not pro Sabean. So let us just keep the tone of out of pro-anti gutter.
2. I give you the K/BB ratio. Since Linden I am hard pressed to name a farm hand that gets promoted (short of extreme injury situations) to the club that didn’t have a good K/BB compared to his other in house options. That is not to say Sabean will chose the best way to look at things when he changes only to say he will, and does, change.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess our real difference is I just don’t see any evidence that Sabean will ever change. We haven’t seen any additional emphasis on OBP in our organization over the last 5 years. Sabean still overpays veterans, and still doesn’t seem to understand how to properly value players. Like I said before, the only change I’ve seen is more emphasis on the farm system.
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even that "difference" is a similarity.
I just put more the blame on the manger than the GM at this point. Look how often the Sabean had to say they would be playing a mostly kids line up the rest of the way in ‘08 and how long it took Big Head (almost a month) to start complying. The last 2+ years have had the potential for some replacement level play ( or even slightly above) from farm hand graduates yet even if the hit well they usually end up straight back on the bench. The non elite (heck even the elite) level talent can’t prove they are competent if they are not given the chance nor rewarded with more play time when they do well. That is all at Big Head’s feet.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll give you that the lineup is set by the manager, and maybe our managers (and most other managers) prefer playing veterans over young guys who could actually develop. Just keep in mind that Bighead’s boss is Brian Sabean. If he wants PT for certain guys, he’ll get PT for certain guys. At worst they should share the blame (though I would prefer to blame the guy at top ultimately responsible).
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The being able to tell Bochy what to do is the sticky wicket here.
It makes things less clear just how much power Sabean has. He was there when Zito was signed and as such I would think some of his power has taken a hit behind the scenes as well. It has been less than a year since the change to the Bow Tie. I would not be a bit surprised if Sabean is on thin ice (a lame duck as it is) or about to be promoted up and out.
As I said elsewhere I am tired of Sabean. But can see how he could survive this off season. It is hard see how much Bochy was his choice or owner’s choice and in a lot of ways it is mute because this is a vastly different type of team than the one Bochy was hired to direct.
I think he has had to tell Big Head more than once and for that I would hope the Sabean administration sees the need to move with a different manager for 2010 and forward. Otherwise how can you even give this guy veteran bench players as the farm help starts to graduate? We have been waiting for significant stretches of play time of Nate & Frandsen for how long? It took a career ending injury to Roberts to give Lewis even a shot. And In his first prolonged slump he is buried on the bench.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even still..
Just because you miss out on buying a BMW by a few thousand dollars, it doesn’t mean you immediately go across the street and buy a Ford Fiesta
by NeifiChicken on Aug 6, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the lot held a “nice” Pacer and reconditioned Pinto. Or you could walk. Take your pick.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for that price 18 M over two years...
I’d walk, or take a harder look at Orlando Cabrera
by NeifiChicken on Aug 6, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 6, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who at the time wanted more years. Just saying.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and cost a pick, didn't he?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 6, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ding ding ding!
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Aug 7, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming it is an amalgam, time of flight data is not, or has not been, recorded, correct?
by khenderson on Aug 4, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know BIS is getting ready to add a ‘batted ball timer’ thing very soon.
Check this out:
On offense I believe we’re measuring 80-90 percent of the true ability of players. On defense, I believe we’re at about the 60 percent level. But we’re still at the tip of the iceberg in terms of precision and a ton more can be done, especially defensively. As new forms of data become available, we’ll be able to enhance our defensive systems. One example: BIS has now developed a batted ball timer, which we believe will greatly improve the accuracy of our system.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Responding to myself: Which theoretically could be applied to UZR. The above link is from Dewan in regards to plus/minus stuff. Very good read that highlights UZR as well.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know. It should be a real improvement. it’s nice not to “throw away” meaningful data. That’s the thing about actually watching a game, your not systematically throwing away data.
by khenderson on Aug 4, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want no part of Bochy / Sabean
I’m terrified about which over the hill veteran Sabean will overpay this year; Zito/Rowand/Renteria (and he was barely outbid on Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews Jr.). I’d rather replace Sabean than Bochy because I think Melonhead will at least follow instructions from a more competent front office (DON’t bat Bengie 4th!), whereas Sabean’s brand of evaluation scares me.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Aug 4, 2009 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Melonhead follows nothing but the RULE OF THE VETERANS
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Aug 4, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ stamped Agreed
I am tired of Sabean but him I can handle and see the justification for him. Big Head’s refusal to change his tactics to fit his talent has really put an extreme bad taste on this season for me. If this franchise had had a hopeful season inside of the last 5 year I probably would not be watching road games right now. I know what HHIIEDD is going to do over 95% of the time and it usually involves not ruffling certain feathers while choosing lowers odds of success.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 5, 2009 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In terms of the relative importance of each to the Giants chances for success, though, Sabean is a much more significant piece. A manager really doesn’t affect the game that much, so who really cares all that much. I think Bighead is more tolerable than Alou…
by Missing Barry on Aug 5, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a low run environment ( ’09 Giants) a manger is huge component. 90 feet become harder, and harder to get. Choices that and result in 90 feet with someone already on are even larger: say like if you #4 hitter might take walks instead of fishing and chasing stuff is directly this managers choice. A manger that leaves the team leader in GiDP at the top of the order for a prolonged period is another example. I will not go into asking why the heck he thinks the hit and run is the best " running game" play to use with a line up of hackers in a low run environment but he certainly does.
Luckily for most of this season we have had only 1 lefty in the ‘Pen so Bochy has not gone his righty-lefty madness tear as much.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t know if I can buy a manager having a large influence on a teams success without seeing some real data. You can look at some examples of a manager making good decisions and say they helped the team, but what about the things a manager didn’t do? We don’t know what impact they would have had since they didn’t happen. Overall, the impact is small (even negligible), and the small amounts of attempts to actually quantify a managers impact seem to support this.
“say like if you #4 hitter might take walks instead of fishing and chasing stuff is directly this managers choice”
I really don’t buy that the manager had any impact on this. Maybe a hitting coach tries and slightly succeeds at making a hitter more patient, but how many hitters do you see change their approach because of the staff? None.
The research on lineup contsruction has also indicated that it has a very tiny impact on the game, even over a full schedule.
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every day the score card is blank. Every day someone is chosen to hit #4. If the manager keeps thinking ISO is THE over whelming criteria to hit #4 I would say the complete lack of OBP form the #4 is defiantly the result of the mangers choice. I would expect Tango’s tables on base/out states would hold him in contempt as well.
Now if the team had 5-6 players that would hit 15+ hrs that line up philosophy might work. With a higher run environment there is more room for passing over those kinds of choices. But not a single Giants’ team under Bochy has had this type of skill concentration so exactly how many more years are we to wait before he changes to fit the situation at hand?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, I’m as frustrated by Molina hitting 4th as you are. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t cost us very much offensively, though (even though Molina should very clearly not be hitting 4th). What frustrates me about it is it seems like a reflection of the fact that our whole organization, from top to bottom, still doesn’t properly value OBP.
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time not agreeing with you more!
My only difference his is “not costing us very much offensively” is true in a league wide environment. In the type of game the ‘09 Giants play the small amount of difference is pivotal. And from a manger that played in the 70’s and was taught the game by players of the 50’s & 60’s I expected a better realization of this fact.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top of the order is exactly where you want your GIDP leader, especially in an NL lineup
He’s FAR less likely than anyone else to come up in a DP situation.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With out grabing The Book I am pretty sure Tango breaks is down to #5 and lower spots.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
because I think Melonhead will at least follow instructions from a more competent front office (DON’t bat Bengie 4th!),
This man would disagree.
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Aug 4, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean is a Yes Sir
Brian Sabean follows orders and that’s why I think he will be back next season.
I really don’t care about Bochy. I hate the fact that he plays the old veteran players, but he’s as good as manager out there. He always did a great job in San Diego and I think he has handled the Giants job pretty well.
by 49er16 on Aug 10, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much just saying what’s expected to be honest, with us having being ahead of schedule they were always likely to be brought back. To be honest my feelings on it are pretty indifferent, i certainly think their are better GM’s/Managers but there’s also plenty of worse.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Aug 4, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Aug 4, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would extend Sabean and say goodbye to Bochy.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is what I’d want. Sabean has some maddening qualities, but then some redeeming ones. Bochy I think just can’t do a thing.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Aug 4, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would almost be inclined to do the reverse. Sabean has made made some totally effed up signings over the last couple seasons. With better players, Bochy’s impact would be reduced (i.e., no Aurilia or Renteria on the roster).
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, my opinion could change after another totally maddening game.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m with you on this. A good GM wouldn’t let Bochy’s veteranophilia overcome good sense. Or he/she would fire Bochy and get somebody better. Either way, we’d come out better.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 5, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nicely said Lyle.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
once we hire a new GM, that person would certainly want to bring in their own manager.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is “better” has to be players with certain skills only. He refuses to alter is approach or tactics. None of those skills seem to be working the count for example. The man insists on playing the game for the mythical late inning home run to put the team ahead on the road.
As for his line choices just how long did the Renteria hitting #2 have to go one before he realized that might not be a good idea any more. I mean at the time Renteria was leading the team with GiDP and Molina was hitting behind him! When the offense is in slumps (from bad to worse) does he try and stack 3-4 spots in the hope of getting threatening couple innings in a game? No, he insists and spacing out is "ok" hitters in the on the theory those Ok hitters are good enough to lift the dross that has been stuffed between them.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 5, 2009 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dare to dream
[Comment From Nolan]
Is it safe to say Rich Aurilia’s days as a Giant are over?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 11:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
NOOOO
baggs: No, it’s not. Aurilia wants to be part of this special season and the Giants want to send him out in a respectful way. It’s clear he’s willing to be a phantom DL guy until rosters expand in September, then he can be an extra right-handed pinch hitter. That’s my guess, anyway.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Horror thought: Can you imagine (somehow) making the playoffs and seeing Aurilia’s name scrawled on the starting lineup? I feel woozy.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, that is stomach turning.
Would the Giants really put him on the postseason roster? I can’t believe even they would do this. Ohhhhhhh… the stomach pain.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His veteran gameyness would be perfect for the post season!
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yes, he is certainly gamy.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys, stop talking about Aurilia’s gams. It’s creepy.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
way past the expiration date.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It'd be like Shinjo at DH
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s exactly what I thought when I read that!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 5, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys! Maybe if we cut some deadweight, it’ll actually help us HAVE a special season!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too much logic.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could understand it maybe if we were the Dodgers—-largely assured of a playoff spot, but we are not currently leading the wild card.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baggs must be using a different definition of “special” than we are.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
It’s clear he’s willing to be a phantom DL guy until rosters expand in September
That’s my guess, anyway.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Aug 4, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow, so he is going to stay in the minors until Sept. 1?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can he?
I thought there was a time limit on how long you can stay on a rehab assignment.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Aug 4, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sort of suspected this all along. The Giants wouldn’t dare cut him when the team is in good position to have a shot at the postseason.
by deuce deuce on Aug 4, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh
of course, cutting him would INCREASE our shot at the postseason…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how? He’s on a rehab assignment until Sept 1st when the rosters expand, so he’s not taking a spot on the 25 man. I don’t get it.
by tyrannoman on Aug 4, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
would have increased...
well, now anyway. I was more referring to when he was on the 25-man roster.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if this is true then it is pathetic on a number of levels
is this going to be a special season if the Giants finish 3rd in the Wild Card race? Richie just needs to have some dignity and retire. You’ve had a successful career, you don’t need to be sticking around for a month to rehab a fake injury so that you can get 10 ABs down the stretch. Barring that, the Giants need to just sack up release him.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
:(
[Comment From Ryan]
Hi Baggs, after having almost every OBP/BB stat place the Giants in dead last, have you sensed an increased focus on OBP within the organization?
baggs: Maybe in who they draft, but not necessarily in how they develop players.
It never occurred to me that one man could play with the faith of 50 million.
by imovermyhead on Aug 4, 2009 12:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think they know how to develop players who do that.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Aug 4, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they’re good at undeveloping that skill.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it would seem that they “develop” it out of players they draft.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
do we have a triple facepalm available?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about a tactical facepalm ?
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Aug 4, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
in other words, the Giants have little interest in improving their biggest deficiency.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re not teaching these guys how to walk!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 4, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or be selective or not swing at wild pitches and pitches that are going to bean balls (yeah, I said it!)…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Small sliver of hope: we did hear about how Hensley Meulens was helping Bowker change his approach and be more selective.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Aug 4, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s really gutsy by Bam Bam. It could cost him his job if word gets out…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope crusher:
And then Bowker was brought up and promptly began swinging at everything within a 3 mile radius of ATT park.
by ryanmiles on Aug 4, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carney got a hold of him and it was all over.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't walk and stay out of Fresno.
This 10 P.A.s at a time and you better be getting more than 4 hits crap has got to stop. Even if you get your 4 hits you are not nessarly getting more playing time. For Lawds sake it is not like the Veteran position players here are that great of shakes themselves.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 5, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not excited about either, but to be fair
When Neukom took over, he said that Sabean would be judged by how the team did on the field and the strength of our minor league system and he’s excelled in both areas this year.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Aug 4, 2009 12:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn!
I was too busy trying to perfect my question before he cut me off…it was something like this re: Molina/Aurilia/Bochy/Sabes:
If you’re part of a organization, how can your main motivation not be doing whatever makes your organization the best it can be?
Aurilia is not helping this organization be the best it can be. LOLina batting cleanup is not helping this organization be the best it can be. If these two vets are too sensitive to realize this, then the management needs to be bold enough to do something about it.
It’s depressing that it seems neither is going to happen.
by InTimmyWeTrust on Aug 4, 2009 12:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Screw Sabean!
Man up and tell Bochy to get Molina out of the cleanup spot. Get us a decent fifth starter. Quit talking shit about the young guys when you’re trusted vets are just as bad, WITHOUT the upside! You’re lucky Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, and Pablo came through, or your ass would be grass!
Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete
by NateisGreat on Aug 4, 2009 12:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t we as fans allowed to expect our GM to make decisions for the better of the team?
Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete
by NateisGreat on Aug 4, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TAKE OFF THE DRESS SABEAN AND GIT R DUN!!!
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Aug 4, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YOU ASS IS GRASS GIANTS BRASS
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
by CB30 on Aug 5, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems Like Many Here Don't Understand What A Manager's Most Important Job Is.
It is not the order of the lineup or the stratagy of any individual game. The job is all about managing people and these people skills are way more important then any of the above. Bruce Bochy is an excellent manager who has earned and extention and will get one.
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
if leaving Bengie in the cleanup spot is part of “managing people” b/c Bengie will cry like a little bitch if he gets moved, then no thanks.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly.
It is not a popularity contest. It isa playing time contest and his job is to make EVERY player earn his time. He does not need to be Billy Martin to do that but Botchy needs to do it.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 5, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the easiest part of the job should be the lineup and strategy decisions, and he royally fucks them up. If you can’t manage the easy decisions, it’s hard to inspire the confidence that you can manage the difficult ones.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how no one but you ever understands anything.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/cue oblivious reply expressing thanks
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants Understand And That Is More Important Then What You Understand.
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know jack about my thoughts on the matter because I didn’t express them. You’re just a presumptuous jerk with bad spelling and grammar who revels in making condescending remarks to everyone else.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
giantsrainman is more knowledgeable... then you.
P.S. You r 5.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meet me at the bike rack!! Your ass is grass!
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
math.
do it.
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
I also make music, please check it out
by ringleader3 on Aug 4, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh “then”
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
by CB30 on Aug 5, 2009 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with you, but this is the best thing I’ve heard all day.
by sakbaum on Aug 5, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree that that's his MOST important job, but it isn't his ONLY job.
The non-personal parts of his job add up to a handful of wins per year, and those wins could be the difference between postseason or not. Moreover, if we are talking about postseason games and you still have a manager who can’t strategize, that could be the difference between a title or not.
And I have to say that I don’t see the basis for thinking Bochy is especially good at the personal side of managing. I detest Dusty Baker, but I will give him credit for that part of the job; we could see it, hear it in the players’ words, and so on. I don’t see any basis for thinking Bochy is exactly Dusty’s reincarnation (although they DO share the inability to manage a lemonade stand in the freaking desert).
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here I Think Bruce Is An Average Manager
There are as many worse as their are better. It is Bruce’s people skills that make him one of the top 10 managers in all of baseball. To do not replace such a manager.
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But top ten doesn’t mean there are as many worse as there are better. Right?
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was curious about this too. If you’re the tenth best manager in baseball, aren’t there 20 managers who are worse and 9 who are better?
I can’t, for the life of me, though, view Bochy as a top ten manager. I’ve met him, he’s a very nice man, but there’s been very little I’ve seen that’s made me think he’s a top ten manager.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top 10 Overall
Top 5 in people skills while just middle 10 in lineup and stratagy skills.
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong! Wrong! Bochy is 14th in people skills and 26th in lineup/strategy skills.
Curiously, he is 3rd in singing ability.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He brings the whole choir down an octave! In a GOOD way!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More Detail
Too breakdown Bruce’ s lineup and stratagy skills he is top 5 in managing a pitching staff and defense and bottom 10 in managing the offense. This combination makes him middle 10 in lineup and stratagy skills.
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How are you reaching these conclusions?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By ignoring my data! Bochy is 18th in politeness, 10th in human decency, 15th in humor, 4th in common courtesy, and 26th in lineup drafting.
It’s science, dammit.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1st in hate size
2nd in moustache length
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s a huge hater
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, he just moved down to 19th in humor. You must have missed the update.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Prospectus rates him 2nd in Common Courtesy. This is city adjusted, of course.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
meaning he doesn’t urinate on you when you pass him on the street.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to San Francisco, where you may or may not be urinated on, depending upon the common courtesy of the passerby.
Makes it easy for any manager to be city-adjusted into the top 5.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why the managers in NYC and PHI will always be 1-3.
Provided they don’t stab anyone all the way to death in front of the victim’s young children, their wCC will always be tops.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Torre rounds out the top 5, because he hasn’t joined a gang or done any drive-by shootings. At least, not that we’re aware.
Trey Hillman (wasn’t even aware of this guy until 10 seconds ago) will never be out of the bottom five, at least not until he invents a cure for cancer, then personally delivers it to the world. Even then, he still might have to die in the effort to make it to #15 overall.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aww, come on. NYC ain't that bad.
Philly, though…
by sakbaum on Aug 5, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
where do you come up with this crap?
you’ve shown no ability to argue logically, so I’m going to assume this follows in the same vein.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Aug 4, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
your personal rankings of his skills are opinions
opinions aren’t details. facts are details. you’ve provided no facts to support your claim.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, It Is Opinion
However, you are wrong in stating that one can not provide more dtails on his opinion. As for facts just look at Bochy’s sucesses in managing both the Giants pitching and the Padres pitching before then.
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What specifically should be looked at, regarding his pitcher management?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bengie Molina is a top 5 cleanup hitter in the NL west.
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we really have no idea what his people skills are like.
That kind of stuff is generally considered off-limits by the press.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Aug 4, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GRM Can Tell That He Has Good People Skills Because His Eyes Tell Him He Has Good People Skills
/passes out
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Needz a people skills stat!
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
right. what is the evidence of his superior people skills?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s all in the nicknames – add an “ie” to everybody’s name, and you haz mad peepul skillz.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jponryie! Wait, did I do that right??
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 5, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be Xanthie.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 6, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 6, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See! Now you are top ten with the people skills.
Xanthany for manager!
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“That’s huge for us,” manager Bruce Bochy said. “To lose Randy Johnson, you need somebody to soften the blow. That’s what he can do for us. Sanchy is going to be a key for us. We know it.”
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 5, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Left Hamstring Ouch
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually It is Pretty Damm Ovious That Bruce Has The Respect Of The Clubhouse
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/proceeds to completely forget about person but still have a K.A.S.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Aug 4, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damm ovious, indeed.
So damm ovious that it requires no proof or basis wassoever.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s not obvious.
You never hear about managers who lose the clubhouse until after they get fired, and rightly so. Any reporter who wrote such a story would be perceived as going after a guy’s job.
I don’t really care about Bruce Bochy – I’m pretty sure most managers would drive me just as nuts – I’m just saying that the relationship between management and press make this impossible to know.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Aug 4, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretend it isn't obvious
and show us why your assertion is correct
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not obvious. It’s Pretty Damm Ovious!
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Aug 4, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, in that case…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Going into the 3rd season when the bulk of his 25 man can still be sent down he better have The Respect. Hell even Hurdle have The Respect in his club house.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
average managers are replaceable.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I silly to think Kim Ng would be an improvement over Sabean?
I do actually like the two deadline deals (Sanchez and Garko) but there are too many albatrosses on this team.
Ng seems like a smart cookie, and much better looking than Sabean.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
by RDreamer on Aug 4, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see Ng in a GM position, especially with the Giants.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We talked about her a few years ago when Sabean's contract was up. There was, IIRC, general approval of her.
I believe in Kim Ng, to quote Harvey Dent.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s the proper way to say her last name? Just wondering.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ing?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like it's spelled.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
EN GEE
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
LOL Xanthan doesn’t know stuff!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
in the uterris
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need to do way instain Xanthan
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s the proper way to say her last name? Just wondering.
Just like “Nguyen” without the “uyen.”
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Aug 5, 2009 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
W?
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 5, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ana Ng and I are getting old!
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Aug 4, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There isn’t much evidence to show that she’d be any better than Sabean, though. The interviews I’ve seen her give have a lot of “intangibles” talk in them.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s required talk though. You have to imply that you get the mysticism side of the game, that you see things that others don’t.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Aug 4, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Redundant.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Redundant.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dangit, my Redundant was redundant!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been reading for years and years about people salivating over Kim Ng, yet no one has really said said why she would be a great GM, other than the standard OMG ANYONE WOULD BE BETTER THAN SABEAN and the like. I have read interviews with Ms. Ng and maybe I am not seeing what everyone else is seeing, so could someone make the case. I’m not poo-pooing, I’m just wish that there was something to back up the strong desire for Kim Ng other than “grass-is-always-greener”, which is what I seem to be seeing.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Aug 4, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She’s supposed to be very good when dealing with contract negotiations, but I have a hard time finding anything regarding her talent evaluation.
by SeeingStars on Aug 4, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So is Colletti supposedly
and yet him and Ng went out and signed Juan Pierre to a 5 year 45 mill deal, Nomar to whatever bad contract he got, Furcal to his 3 year 39 mill deal or whatever it was, and the even worse one this time around at 4 years 40. Andruw Jones and Jason Schmidt were AWFUL contracts too. Yeah they’re awesome at contract negotiations. Unless that description is really just used at how good a person is at enticing someone to sign a contract with you because they’re going to grossly overpay you.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strawman alert! Nobody is "salivating"
You and whoever was writing before the comments were apparently deleted are waaaaaay overstating what anyone on here has said. No salivating, no “OMG WE HAVE TO HAVE HER OR CIVILIZATION WILL END” or any other breathless nonsense.
Speaking for myself only, I would favor her hiring because all accounts are that she is very intelligent and very knowledgeable about baseball and its operations, as well as the business side of the GM job. She is of an age cohort that would make me trust her ability (or at least openness to) modern evaluation tools— moreso than the old guys on the Baseball Treadmill™. And there can often be value in having someone who didn’t travel the same path as all the “Baseball Men™” who seem to keep getting the same jobs; there can be value in seeing things from a different perspective.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
the comments about Kim Ng weren’t deleted; I didn’t see that they actually took place below this. Carry on.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Mayor, when I say salivating I was not speaking literally, I am quite sure that no one requires a bib when the name Kim Ng is brought up. I was simply trying to understand what brings people to decide why she is brought up again and again with great enthusiasm, always with vague generalities and a whole lotta “me toos.” I have asked this question about Kim Ng for years and you’re the first one to give me an opinion that is not “gotta be better than Sabean”. I have no opinion on the matter of Kim Ng, I’m just trying to get to the root of the enthusiasm.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Aug 4, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see an Earl Weaver-esque manager for a season.
Someone short who will really tear into an umpire
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A thing of the past. I doubt we will ever see that type again.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
too many suspensions. you can’t even kick dirt on an ump anymore b/c it violates his “personal space”
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More importantly, I just don't think modern players would tolerate an Earl anymore.
The unsustainability of guys like Larry Bowa and even Buck Showalter (who isn’t an emotional guy but is a world class control freak) shows that— they were the last of the “I’m the General, You’re the Soldiers” type of approach.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you read the bit on Earl Weaver in SI last month? I liked it.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you’re probably right. in those days, the players were more or less trapped on their teams, so the manager had a lot more control. Plus, the salaries…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus they weren’t making a lot of money.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Aug 4, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, you said that.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Aug 4, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want that minor league manager who crawled then threw the rosin bag like a grenade.
by kaliber on Aug 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GROUND ATTACK!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Epic tantrum.
And well placed rosin bag toss.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
Where can I find this conversation with Baggs?
Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete
by NateisGreat on Aug 4, 2009 12:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
109
http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_12969148
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete
by NateisGreat on Aug 4, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean/Bochy or Ng/Acta?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Aug 4, 2009 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like plenty fo candidates better than Ng, but I’d take Ng/Acta of those options
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who do you like better than Ng?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Aug 4, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
short list in no particular order
Forst, Antonetti, DePodesta, Hoyer, Cherington
Ng might not be too far behind either, but I’d want one of those 5
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beinfest please. I’m sure money could help persuade him away from being team president of the Marlins.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a bad one either
I left him off because he’s already a GM. Still, I’d probably prefer one of those 5
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not their GM anymore. It’s some other guy. He’s just listed as the team president now. Not sure when that happened but yeah.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a promotion
even less likely he’d move
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence why you offer him a batshit load of money. Lots of money + stake in ownership maybe and the ability to work with a big payroll might be enticing. But he’s been with them for awhile so he may not go anywhere.
Logan White would be next on my list. He’s the biggest reason the Dodgers are any good at all. His track record in player development is as good as it gets and he seems to be a very bright individual from what I’ve read from his interviews and such.
Roy Clark would be next on my list. I want someone who would put a premium on building a top 5 farm system year after year after year.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Logan White
The guy’s had a couple amazing drafts, no doubt about that, but that’s why is an elite Scouting Director. There’s a lot more to th GM job than identifying amateur talent. White might be qualified to do so, I don’t know, but I think his track record of the 2002 and 2003 drafts are really the only things I have to go on with him.
Doesn’t mean he’d be any good at exploiting market inefficiencies, maximizing resources, or making good decisions on contracts.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack Zduriencik seems to be doing just fine. He was previously an elite scouting director.
Logan White is an assistant GM to Colletti just like Ng is. I’m guessing he gets a lot of exposure to what the job entails, just as Colletti did from Sabean.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I praised Zduriencik in this thread
That’s because Zdurienecik is good at balancing all forms of analysis. I’m not sure Logan White would be the same way (he could be, but I don’t know his thoughts on objective analysis). I do know that Doug Melvin is bigger on it than Colletti is, so it makes sense Zdurienecik would be more attuned to it.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forst is already basically the GM for the A’s. Beane lets him do all sorts of things.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s better, but Ng/Bochy would have a bigger impact amongst those 4 candidates
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t get the insane affection for Ng or Acta.
As for Bochy, I’m pretty indifferent to him. You can find a fault with ANY manager, because they all do stupid shit. For the most part he handles the bullpen well, he isn’t as abusive with the starters as Dusty or Billy Martin was, and he seems to be even keeled enough to manage either a young or veteran laden team.
However if Sabean wanted to hire Bobby Valentine in the off-season I wouldn’t complain.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Valentine, please.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t get it either. I just chalk it up to a San Francisco thing, “hey look at us, we’re progressive!”
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially when she’s not even the most qualified candidate in the Dodgers front office.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She’s asian, she must be good at math, and by extension must be good at statistical analysis.
She’s a woman, so she’s never wrong.
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh shit I just realized that is the precise quality you look for in a General Manager. Someone who is good at logic, math, and is never wrong.
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way baseball is going, I think focusing on a GM who’s good at the statistical analysis aspect of things is a mistake. Obviously you need a decent level of that kind of knowledge just to make sure you know what you’re doing, but given that a lot of other teams have that also, there aren’t enough inefficiencies to exploit simply through statistical analysis alone to be successful.
Basically, the market is heading towards more of a perfectly competetive market where everyone has this information available and understands how to use it. To get ahead in this environment, I see player evaluation/development as the key. Whoever can bring the most talent through the pipeline on a consistent basis will be the most successful. That’s what our focus should be for a new GM.
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent points, but...
That’s more of the role of your director of Player Dev and Scouting Director.
I just want the smartest person possible to keep those people on track and be in charge of the big decisions (i.e. when and where to spend the money).
Also, the statistical analysis thing is a lot mroe widespread on the internet than it is in front offices
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention...
there is still so much more objective research out there to be done in the fields of defense, injuries, baserunning, etc.
You want a smart person who will be able to take all opinions into account and make the wisest decisions from those multiple opinions.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely a lot of research to be done on defense, and even more on pitching/hitting with regards to pitch f/x stuff. I have questions about the combination of how much we can find out about injuries/baserunning and how much of an impact that research will ultimately have – I suspect it won’t be that important. But yes, you make some good points that we need a smart person running things. Maybe I should change my opinion to wanting a smart person that gets the statistical analysis stuff as GM, but at least as importantly, hires good people for evaluation/development?
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seattle’s GM is a good example too. He’s from a scouting background, not a “Ivy League type”, but he has shown a good ability to balance both to get the most complete picture, as well as make some shrewd moves.
Even if you can see how good certain players are, it still takes a great deal of self control and shrewdness to acquire the right players at the right prices to make your roster. I do honestly think Sabean is probably a good evaluator of talent, I just think he lacks the shrewdness to maximize his resources to make the best possible teams.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah I knew that there was something we'd agree upon
by SeeingStars on Aug 4, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oddly...
if you agreed with that statement I’m surprised you don’t agree with me on Sanchez/Garko moves. To me, that’s Sabean identifying solid players, just not being shrewd enough to upgrade at the proper price and maximize his resources
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just desperate for anything from the 2B spot. There’s no one in our system at any level that makes me optimistic.
by SeeingStars on Aug 4, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He [Mariners GM] does seem to be doing some good things so far. To me, Sabean seems like a good evaluator of talent stuck 20 years in the past. He still doesn’t get just how important things like OBP are, and clearly hasn’t kept up with modern player valuations. He does seem to have a decent eye for baseball talent, just not a full understanding of the relative importance of each of the baseball skills he’s evaluating, and what they’re worth in terms of money and in terms of wins.
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nicely put
I agree with that. It’s one thing to ignore some OBP players if you think they are overvalued (i.e. Adam Dunn) but that clearly isn’t the case with Sabean. I almost think he honestly wants to prove he can win with a team full of hackers just to spite the younger generation, which is completely counterproductive if it’s true.
I mean it seems like you really have to try and get a team this aggressive
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the statistical analysis thing is a lot mroe widespread on the internet than it is in front offices
That’s not as true was it once was. Teams are getting into that more and more.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you'd think so, but you'd be surprised
A lot of team’s now have numbers analysts, but that doesn’t mean their information gets used at all.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that they at least are hiring people to analyze statistics. Something that wasn’t being done league wide as it is now. The implementation of using those stats is only going to increase, not decrease over time.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it will
I’m not denying it, but it’s still not that widespread. I bet the numebr of teams that use numbers as a big part of their decisions is less than 10, maybe even less than 5
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s precisely this why the 3 guys I most want to be the next GM come from teams with a strong history in player development.
Larry Beinfest, Logan White and Roy Clark. The Marlins, Dodgers and Braves have all been teams that have drafted well, developed well and take chances on high upside players/raw players yet seem to be able to develop them into polished products by the time they reach the big leagues.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
to me...
it seems like you’re advocating for a better Director of Amateur Scouting and Director of Player Development. The GM’s role oversees those things to a degree, but those are the two that have the most say there
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m advocating the next GM we hire having that background. Just as Sabean did. But these 3 guys are some of the brightest and well regarded people in all of baseball. Not just for their knowledge of the game or for their scouting ability etc but because they would be great candidates to be GM’s for some other franchise, though Beinfest has already flourished in such a role with the smallest payroll in the game.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Using the “Just as Sabean did” reason would not be a good one though, we should be trying to shift away from the what’s been done the past 12 years.
I like Beinfest, he’s made some great trades but they have not faired as well in the draft as you make it seem.
Since 2000 they have produced one very good player, Josh Johnson and 2 quasi-decent players (Hermida, Olsen). They obviously have some promising guys recently like Volstad, but his track record since 2000 isn’t really all that impressive compared to the rest of the league. Only his 2002 draft has produced above league average in that time. 2001, 2003, 2004 have all been terrible and it’s too early to tell on the rest.
2005 is looking sort of questionable right now as well, given that they had such a high volume of top picks (5 in top 50, 8 in top 100) and the only ML player they have gotten to this point is Chris Volstad (just traded away Aaron Thompson, their no. 2 pick that year). Sean West is promising, but has tons of control issues as well, so we’ll have to see
They have done well internationally (I suppose that’s really just code for “Miguel Cabrera”) and very well in trades, although there’s certainly some terrible ones (D Lee for hee Sop choi, Adrian for Ugeth Urbina).
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given their payroll situation, do they operate their draft on a budget, too?
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are pretty restricted to signability picks yes.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm, really?
They have spent 25 million in draft bonuses over the past 5 year. We have spent 22. They are in the top 1/3 of teams in terms of spending in the draft
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because they keep drafting in the top 15 every year. They still pass over guys that are more talented and require bigger salaries because they can’t sign them. IE Porcello, Heyward, etc. They have to focus more on quantity than quality a lot of the time because their overall budget wouldn’t allow them to splurge to go for the really high ceiling guy.
Comparing the Giants and Marlins is a bad idea over the past 5 years, when for 2 of those years the Giants weren’t even drafting until the 3rd or 4th rounds.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 5, 2009 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, but...
even with 2 more first rounders, that would probably put us about even. Add a couple second rounders and we’d be looking at maybe another million on top.
We’re still very comparable in how we both spend in the draft, and what that shoes to me is that FLA invests relatively heavy on the draft, which is a good thing.
Still, you make it seem like they are forced to pass on a lot of guys because of money. With Porcello, you’re right, but that was the same with about 15 teams worried about his bonus demands. Heyward signed more of less for slot, but they don’t have a cop out excuse there
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby ‘I choo-choo-choose you’ Valentine? Seriously?
I don’t know why I consider him a window licker, but I do.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 6, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks to a couple of laughs from the McCoven, I have stopped myself. I’m not promising once the laughs are over I won’t throw myself down the stairs though.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Aug 4, 2009 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not surprised, but disapointed
We should be the Red Sox of the West, yet we settle for this
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just curious. How do you figure that?
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
our money
We are just a much bigger market than every team in our division but LA. Much like how NY and BOS have way more resources than their division rivals, LAD and SF share that same advantage.
We should never be on equal footing with AZ, COL, and the Pads.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone have an idea on how we can double the revenue?
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
use math? move the A's to oregon?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, someone please help me.
I also make music, please check it out
by ringleader3 on Aug 4, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO THANKS
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Aug 4, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Portland Athletics
It has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 5, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ggrrrr
You mean Maine?
Seriously though I look at the Warriors history and truely do not just one team for a major pro sport in the Northen California. Bad things happen.
/ braces fro attack from Sahrks fans
The Sharks are still a good example of a hungry franchise.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In all seriousness (that word looks weird) I cannot see MLB in Portland’s future. They just basically took PGE Park, a yard that has hosted the Beavers in their many incarnations since the Fifties (barring runs when the franchise was run out of town), and gave it to the MLS expansion TImbers come 2011. The Beavers have no place to play in 2011. And this town is really clueless in finding a place to build a park for them to play. There was a perfect spot on top of the Memorial Coliseum, right next to the Rose Garden, that in my opinion would have been a great urban setting for baseball,with public transport already in place, right on the Willamette. No, people didn’t like that. This monstrosity that is the Coliseum – that really isn’t being used – it’s too much of a landmark to tear down. Waaa.
Then they wanted to put a stadium out far, far east on i -205, a very bad place for a yard, but everyone in town thought it was a great place for a yard – never mind that the days of suburban ball yards is long over. This was a suburban setting! It made no sense, but city hall was gung ho. Well, luckily, the neighborhood didn’t want to put up with having a ballyard as their backyard.
As of now, who knows if the Beavers – a stalwart of the PCL – are even going to play in Portland past next season.
I would say that this ongoing tragic saga of baseball in Portland was quite disheartening, if I actually cared. Portland is a leader in a lot of things (like patting itself on the back), but in this they are clueless. They are so small market it’s embarrassing.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Aug 6, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
print more money
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paying off the stadium should help a little
by superk1ng on Aug 4, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe the Giants can get a mortgage bailout.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should never be on equal footing with AZ, COL, and the Pads.
This isn’t true.
We should have more good years than AZ, Colorado, and the Pads. But teams can overcome a payroll disadvantage by being awful for a while, getting good draft picks, drafting good players, and putting together a good, cheap team. The Rays did exactly this.
Osiris, lord of the dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
by neurofarm on Aug 6, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, but that’s sort of what I mean. We should ahead of these teams for the most part, and then thru boom and bust prospect cycles they catch up to us.
Even with the Rays success it still only catches them up to Boston’s level, or really, just closer to BOS level
by NeifiChicken on Aug 6, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree and disagree with you on this. Yes, teams with low payrolls can be very good for a season or even a few. The Twins and A’s are the prime examples, but the Rays fit this mold as well as the Indians in the mid-90s. However, small-market teams that sustain success are very rare. Over the course of a season, it wouldn’t be surprising for one of AZ, SD and COL to be competitive with the Giants every year. However, over time (5+ years), the team with greater resources – here, the Giants, but the Dodgers, too – should have greater success.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Aug 7, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even the Red Sox make mistakes. Like trading Hanley. If Larry Lucchino hadn’t pissed off Epstein they wouldn’t have traded him for Beckett. They probably could have still gotten him for some other prospect at the time.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 4, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no one's perfect
but at least their mistake helped lead to a world series.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to complain about how that trade worked out.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Aug 4, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
first we need the A’s to move away so we can quadruple our payroll.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Aug 4, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ITS PRETTY DAMM OVIOUS!!
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are overestimating the west coast local TV revenue as well as fan purchase power (numbers + % disposable income willing to spent on team)
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking for feedback
This topic had me scrolling back through Giants drafts. I forgot the Giants had so many first rounders+comp round in 2007. Wonder how history will end up comparing that to the A’s Moneyball draft:
2007 Draft Picks B/T Ht Wt DOB Draft Round POS Signed
Madison K Bumgarner R/L 6’04" 215 1989-08-01 1 LHP 08/15/2007
Timothy C Alderson R/R 6’06" 217 1988-11-03 1 RHP 07/23/2007
Wendell L Fairley L/R 6’02" 190 1988-03-17 1 CF 08/15/2007
Nicholas M Noonan L/R 6’00" 180 1989-05-04 Comp A SS 6/21/2007
Jackson T Williams R/R 5’11" 200 1986-05-14 Comp A C 6/21/2007
Charles E Culberson R/R 6’01" 185 1989-04-10 Comp A SS 6/21/2007
2002 Draft Picks B/T Ht Wt DOB Draft Round POS Signed
Jeremy S Brown R/R 5’10" 210 10/25/1979 1 C -
John C Mccurdy R/R 6’2" 200 04/17/1981 1 SS -
Joseph M Blanton R/R 6’3" 225 12/11/1980 1 RHP -
Nicholas T Swisher S/L 6’0" 200 11/25/1980 1 1B -
Stephen H Obenchain R/R 6’5" 200 07/29/1981 1 RHP -
Benjamin J Fritz R/R 6’4" 215 03/29/1981 1 RHP -
Mark Teahen L/R 6’3" 205 09/06/1981 1 3B -
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
wcw thinks our draft falls well short
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I, too, think it falls VERY well short.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 5, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love that Charlie Culberson’s middle name starts with an E.
by xanthan on Aug 4, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on your basis of comparison
Assuming things pan out as they should, Bumgarner should be a better player than anyone the A’s got, but the A’s will hit on more people. We’ll likely get Bumgarner and Alderson as big leaguers in that draft and the A’s have gotten 4 good guys (Swisher, Blanton, Teahan, Baker).
We probably spent more, but that’s purely a guess.
Only time will tell, but I think will probably both be rated pretty successful, but a lot depends on just how good/healthy Bumgarner can be
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baker’s later in the draft… I limited the pull to the first + sandwich round. Can’t think of other cases where a team had so many.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Aug 4, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs 2002 is interesting...
4 picks in the top 50, another 4 in 51-100.
That’s 8 top 100 picks.
What did they get out of them? Billy Petrick.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hah!
Well, they are the Cubs.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Aug 4, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want another interesting fact...
Since 1998 the Yankees have drafted one player that has provided league average production for at least 1 season: Joba Chamberlain.
Now, they have gotten a number of foreign players in that time, but the Yanks spent a lot on the draft from 1998-present and have literally just gotten Joba as a successful big leaguer to this point. Yes, Hughes seems likely to join him, Jackson later on, but to this point, JUST JOBA
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
to break it down
from 1998-2007 they had 9 1st rounders, 7 comp picks, and 14 picks in the 51-100 range. All that yielded so far has been Joba
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And tons of money to go overslot on anyone they wanted…
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
in actual dollars spent on the draft they are in the top 5 in that span (just in bonuses, their scouting department is probably one of the 3 largest)
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a big part of that A’s draft was that they were picking signability guys with particular undervalued skill sets, not necessarily the top talents, though Swisher was a legit first rounder.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's start the petition!
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 4, 2009 1:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
especially when they’re on the internet
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since this is the most active post
Buster Posey just hit his first home run in AAA. Finshes 2-4, BB, double, Homerun, 4 rbis
by superk1ng on Aug 4, 2009 1:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
but Holm hit 2, so Buster will continue to be blocked…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sweet
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 4, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh noes, jponry on TWO bandwagons
AT THE SAME TIME
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait
what bandwagons am i on?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 4, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frosey
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She’s in the Poddy wagon.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 6, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there anyone not on the Buster Posey bandwagon? He’s a monster.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Aug 4, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NeifiChicken probably isn’t. he seems to be down on pretty much everything these days
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Posey
I liked the following guys in our system a lot: Posey, MadBum, Alderson, Neal
Saw promise in: Barnes, Villalona, RafRod
We just traded 2 of those 7, we did get better, I just felt that we could’ve gotten similar upgrades for free. Why pay $1 for Coca cola when Safeway select is pretty similar and .25 cents
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Safeway Select is awful. I don’t mean that as an answer to your metaphor, off brand soda is shit
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually agree
it was a poor example. Still, I’m not denying we got better, I just believe we could’ve gotten nearly the same upgrade for free with a little more creativity
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be happy with a Sabean extension
Much as I was one of the few happy here when he got his last extension.
He has done well with what he has been given – not perfect, well – and I like the way the team is shaping up, now and in the future. I would like to see what he can do next with what he has built so far.
Bochy, I can go either way. I like the way he has worked with the young players, for the most part, and I’ve been OK with his usage of the pitchers. But there is nothing compelling for me to say that I want him back, but there is nothing that makes me want to get rid of him either. If Tracey hadn’t been promoted to manager of Colorado, I would have had some interest in him, mainly because we could pick his brain on the Dodger’s processes and practices. Now, I’m not sure who I would want instead, other than our bench coach.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 4, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Turd>Bochy>Tracy
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Aug 4, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s what Dave Littlefield thought
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t excuse Sabean for the fact that we STILL are a team of overpaid veterans that can’t hit. When was the last time our offense was even average? And we all know that was 100% because of Barry Lamar Bonds. It would be one thing if Sabean was improving his approach to developing an offense, but I’m just not seeing that. We’re batting a guy with an OBP below .270 cleanup. I don’t think any point is stronger than that. Regardless of who’s actually making that decision, any GM that has the slightest clue about the importance of not making an out would stop that immediately.
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean seems to be so horrible at negotiating, too. he continues to get swindled in free agent contract negotiations and (arguably) trade deals. what’s the matter with this guy? even with Magowan gone, Sabean is still very responsible for the overpaid nature of the Giants.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You simply don't know that. You can't say he was "swindled" unless you know what the other side's walkaway point was.
Yes, in retrospect, anyone can say that Renteria, Rowand, etc. are overpaid— doesn’t mean the buyer was swindled at the time of the contract— it just means it didn’t work out they way they expected or gambled that it would. And yes, in retrospect, it is clear that the offseason market this past winter ENDED UP showing that Renteria’s contract was over what the market was for similar type of players— again, that doesn’t mean the buyer was swindled, only that he made the purchase (for a combination of reasons) before the market was defined.
People can legitimately debate the wisdom of the signings/trades, no problem. But when we get into the “swindled” and “he overpaid” stuff, that’s nonsense. We simply don’t know what all the negotiables were that both sides had and how they valued them. Part of a GM’s job is acting on imperfect information (example: if you minimize risk of not getting one of the few FA’s that can play SS and be expected to be decent, then you sign him early at the cost of not knowing what the market will ultimately be— you’re paying money to reduce risk, a common tradeoff).
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(uh oh)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s always someone on the board who makes you less confident in your argument when he agrees with you.
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
by dcp on Aug 4, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had to go back and re-read, to see where the Mayor went wrong.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the part where you turn a complete 360 on your argument.
(It’s a 180, George).
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Aug 4, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
that GRM agrees with you seriously puts your argument into doubt. /jk
anyway, I didn’t really have the Renteria deal in mind, and it was only 2 years, so I didn’t really have a problem with it at the time despite it probably being more than he was worth.
What I was thinking of was in particular were the Zito and Rowand deals. There’s no way in hell anyone else came close to offering those types of deals to those guys. Is that speculation on my part? Yes, but it’s based on the news accounts at the time, which is all I have to go on. Call it an quasi-educated guess, if you want. I’m not saying it’s a fact or that Sabean is the 10th ranked GM in evaluating talent, but 29th in FA negotiations. It’s fully my opinion.
History may prove me wrong, but so far it shows that Sabean grossly overpaid for those guys given their skill sets, even if the market was overpaying for guys at the time (everybody was doing it isn’t a good excuse, imo). He could have walked away and/or held firm, but he didn’t. The Giants got ripped off. Whether you want to put it that way or not is just splitting hairs. They are bad deals for the Giants no matter what way you look at it b/c the likelihood of the players providing production that warrants those types of salaries was/is low, and they operate to inhibit future moves because of their length and amount.
Anyway, GMs shouldn’t be gambling with that type of deal. Those types of deal HAVE to work out.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean, bete noire
I agree with the basic point, that Sabean’s FA signings aren’t very good. In particular, Renteria, Durham, Alfonzo, Klesko, Aurilia, Benard, and Winn’s last contracts all come to mind.
But my guess is still that the Zito signing was a Magowan move. Too much money, and too much image behind that one. Also, while Rowand got a lot, I’m glad the Giants dodged the Andruw Jones bullet. The Torii Hunter deal was even more expensive.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Aug 4, 2009 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durham was worth the money.
Winn is worth the money.
Klesko was a smart risk to take.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Aug 4, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m so tired of the “IT WAS OBVIOUSLY MAGOWAN’S FAULT!!!” argument regarding Zito. Even if it was, it still would have been in Sabean’s best interest to talk Magowan out of offering that contract, if he truly believed it was a bad deal. Regardless of who you want to blame, that’s now on Sabean’s permanent record as GM of the Giants. So let’ stop with the Magowan nonsense. I swear to you, he’d have listened to Sabean if Sabean told him that was a dumb contract to offer.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 5, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, do you really think Magowan told Sabean, “I want Zito, and I want to spend $126M to get him.” Even with marching orders to acquire Zito, Sabean ended up offering him $30M more than any other team…
by Missing Barry on Aug 5, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree with you both.
People always trying to blame it solely on PMG is a mistake.
Like I said in the other thread, Brian’s Sabean’s FA breakdown looks like this
W/ Zito, 8.74 Million per WAR on the FA market
W/ out Zito, 8.03 Million per WAR on FA market.
He’s terrible, if it was 100% PMG, he’s still terrible. I’m sure if Sabean really didn’t want him, he could have put up a bigger fight
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s even more annoying is how obviously the whole “Zito’s PM’s fault” line was put out there by Sabean’s posse. It’s just PR gamesmanship crap.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 5, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. I could see Magowan telling Sabean, “Look we need to make a splash in free agency, and we’ve whiffed on the biggest hitters out there. Barry Zito is still available, let’s land him.”
At this point, it’s now on Sabean to see what it will take to land him, and when he hears they have to give five years and 15mil per season, he should say, “Pete, it’s not worth it. Here’s the scouting reports and statistical evidence to say why we shouldn’t offer him five years OR 15mil per season.”
The fact that we still signed him only tells me that there’s more than one person who’s responsible for the debacle. I can’t say it’s fully Magowan’s fault, and I can’t say it’s fully Sabean’s fault. It was a bad idea, and someone should have stood up and said “No” before they ever made it to seven years OR 18mil per season.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 5, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, even assuming Sabean had orders to get Zito, he offered Zito $30M more than anyone else. What does that say about Sabean…?
by Missing Barry on Aug 5, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To pile on — doesn’t the belief that Sabean was opposed to signing Zito fly in the face of everything we know about his track record? This is the man who signed Matt Morris the year before, who chose Kirk Rueter over Russ Ortiz … he LOVES veteran soft-tossers who just know how to win.
by Evan on Aug 5, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No arguments from me.
He DID also trade for one hard throwing Jason Schmidt, though. And let him go when his fastball lost its velocity. After that, I’m out of counter-examples.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 5, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s blame Larry Baer. He’s a greedy prick who keeps getting more and more power with this team and all he cares about is catchy marketing schemes and making money. Not only did they grossly overpay for Zito and get him because he was the opposite of Barry Bonds, but they proceeded to raise ticket prices by like 20 dollars or more despite having not reached the playoffs in a couple of years.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 6, 2009 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The raised ticket prices were because ticket prices were locked in to small raises for the first 8 or so years. That was the first year that policy expired, allowing the Giants to set prices wherever they want. Basically, there’s an argument that prices were artificially low before that, and the Giants finally had the ability to price the tickets at the appropriate rate.
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually my seats in View Reserved were $13 in 2000 and are now $18 in 2009. Only a $5 raise in 10 seasons.
by SFGuy on Aug 6, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larry Baer is anything but a prick.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 6, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve had a lot of interactions over the years with Larry. He’s a very nice man. He even gave me an awkward high five once!
Speaking of people calling someone a prick in an unwarranted manner, I was once at a ballgame, and this guy sitting by me started telling me how Larry was a total jerk. His reason for saying so is because Larry once hit on his wife. Later he confessed that Larry hit on his wife back in college, when she was just his girlfriend. I laughed at the guy. That’s a helluva stupid grudge.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 7, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion is based on people I know at the ball park who work there. He treats them poorly.
by SFGuy on Aug 8, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion is based on first-hand experience with the guy, and as you might be able to tell, I’m not exactly someone of any degree of significance. Plus, the people I know there, from the front office, all really like Larry.
He’s not a prick.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if you want to add that uncertainty into the conversation about Sabean’s moves, at some point, looking back on Sabeans collective moves, you start to see a trend. He continues to end up on the wrong side of these negotiations. I feel I can justify almost all the individual signings Sabean has made over the years, but looking back on them collectively, it’s so much easier to get a clear picture of a GM being “swindled”. Durham, Alfonzo, Finley, Roberts, Aurilia, Renteria, Johnson, Grissom, Hillenbrand, Vizquel….etc. The point is, they ALWAYS end up overpaid. I feel I can justify almost every one of those signings in a vacuum, but in the context of overpaid veterans that almost never give us the value we pay them for….well, it’s clear to me Sabean gets “swindled”.
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa! Finley came in a trade for Alfonzo—and provided excellent defense, much needed when Alou was out—at the same salary. Hillenbrand came for free, or for the differential between the skills of Chulk, whom we got, and Accardo, whom we lost. I don’t know that Durham was overpaid, or for that matter, Johnson either. Aurilia is getting $1M, which isn’t a great extravagance, or wouldn’t be if he were playing as well as he played last year. (Anything is an extravagance for his play this year.)
You’re so eager to make a universal point that you dump out a lot of names without much thought.
by campanari on Aug 4, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“You’re so eager to make a universal point that you dump out a lot of names without much thought.”
Just threw out the first ones that came to mind. Maybe not all the best examples. I really don’t want to think about it much…it’s frustrating that we’re at least as bad offensively as we were 4 years ago….
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lazy to conflate "overpaying" (which is something I do for my own reasons) and "getting swindled" (which is something someone else does to me)
But anyway, it’s a bogus point: it doesn’t matter if Sabean overpays/gets swindled unless it can also be demonstrated that it somehow prevented the Giants from getting someone that they otherwise would have. And I haven’t seen that we would have gotten [fill in the blank with great player we never got] if only we had a little more money.
I used to go to lots of film festivals and really got into the making of movies, etc. Pretentious jerkoff filmmaker wannabes would always ask the filmmaker, “What was your shooting ratio,” which is the number of feet of film actually shot in the production divided by the number of feet of film in the final movie. FINALLY, one filmmaker answered back that it was none of his business and that it’s a stupid question to begin with, insofar as it assumes that “efficiency” (or whatever platonic ideal of bringing the product home as nearly as possible to the supposed best price is) matters to the finished product. You wouldn’t ask Michaelangelo how many brushstrokes it took to do the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel — other than out of trivial curiosity — as a means of judging the product.
I maintain, though, that it is invalid to evaluate how well a negotiation was conducted without some idea of the other side’s walkaway. How can you? If you want X, and the seller of X simply won’t part with it for less than $9M, then even if $9M is an outrage, the buyer has to say “screw it” or “grrrr…I’ll take it.” Unless you know that Renteria’s agent would have taken $1M (or whatever), then you can’t say Sabean overpaid.
I take your point, though, about looking at the signings in the aggregate, and obviously, that’s not a great shiny list of accomplishments. I’m not a Sabean apologist by any means. I do think he is behind the current thinking on evaluation, and I don’t think he is very imaginative. But some of the knocks are simply not measurable. For a bunch of people who demand data and metrics for a lot of things, there are sure a lot of judgments made about Sabean based on “what my eyes see” rather than knowing what the relevant data are.
Now, I have to have a couple bourbons & ice to soothe GRM’s agreement with me…
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just wanted to add: I like the word conflate.
/end useless interjection
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a sweet lawyer word, conflate.
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
by dcp on Aug 4, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm 9th in sweetness.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But no one can EVER demonstrate “that it somehow prevented the Giants from getting someone that they otherwise would have.” Haven’t you been one of the people saying that we can’t know what deals were out there that Sabean didn’t take, and what offers Sabean made that were rejected?
All we can do is judge the trades and signings after they happen. Some of that is informed by “word on the street” reports from GM’s, bloggers, would-be pundits, and scouts.
And so, counselor, it would seem to the reasonably prudent man that Sabean frequently overpays for talent — and often “iffy” talent at that.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 5, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Conflate” and “meme” swept the WELL about a decade ago and you couldn’t run from it. Good words though.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Aug 4, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think he is behind the current thinking on evaluation, and I don’t think he is very imaginative.
That’s exactly my problem with Sabean anymore. I don’t necessarily think we’re going to be a worse team if we retain him, but I could see the possibility of us becoming a better team by replacing him. If that makes any sense to anyone other than the voices in my head…
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I didn’t make my point very well, I’ll concede that. My real point is basically summed up in this. Overall, Sabean does a poor job.
by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then why has Sabean consistently misread the market over the past few years? I’m to lazy to do any actual research, but have any of his significant free agent contracts ended up providing more value than the dollar figures would suggest over their lifetime? It’s easy to come up with bad contracts where the gamble failed, but he should have a like number of successes to point to as well.
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
by dcp on Aug 4, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Lamar Bonds. Yes, he did sign new contracts under Sabean’s regime.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Aug 4, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems like signing almost washed up veterans worked better when we still had the magic of BALCO on our side.
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
by dcp on Aug 4, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
even then, he overpaid
as tiem has told, there are clearly no other suitors for Bonds. We could’ve kept him for much chepaer when we re-signed him in 06-07
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which goes to prove the point.
Managers do matter in Colorado. You have to get one that knows how to manipulate the humidor.
I’m sure 97 year old Felipe Alou could get this team to win on the road What really gets me about Bochy is the preparation to be ready at the beginning of the season and at the break. Year after year its 1-6 or 2-6 starts. Decent starts at the beginning of the season and/or at the break and this team would be seriously contending for the division, not just fighting for their life in the wildcard race.
by bradleybear on Aug 4, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hurdle was awful.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-clint-hurdle-era/
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh, Tracy? Really?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 4, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOLINUP
LF Velez
2B F. Sanchez
3B Sandoval
C Molina
1B Garko
RF Winn
CF Rowand
SS Renteria
P J. Sanchez
by jctGamer on Aug 4, 2009 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Must have been a good talk about moving Molina out of the cleanup spot.
/pulls out hair
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were the preliminary talks that take place for weeks until Bill Clinton flies in and secures the freedom of the #4 slot.
3. Nobel!
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 4, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Where are all the Asian chicks at?”
/play sax and smokes cigar simultaneously
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Molina’s driving in four runs tonight just to spite us. You watch.
by Evan on Aug 4, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then
not only is he going to hit cleanup the rest of this year but for the next three years as well.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Aug 4, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then he’ll retire and become the hitting coach.
by Evan on Aug 4, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Posey will be converted to OF, to remain logjammed behind Rowand, Winn and whatever other over-the-hill OF they can sign in the off-season.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 4, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering who P.J. Sanchez was.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Aug 4, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would it be like to be a fan of a team that didn’t make obviously stupid decisions night in and night out?
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
by dcp on Aug 4, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!
by giantsrainman on Aug 4, 2009 11:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t say I agree with the conclusion: “Sabean engineered this progress and he ought to be allowed to see where it leads.” Whether he continues as GM should be based solely on expectations of performance, not that he “deserves” to see how the minor league system plays out.
I’m still quite wary of his ability to evaluate, sign and pay for free agent talent. The article kind of mentions then downplays this aspect of his job in favor of playing up the minor league success (which has been excellent over the last few years). At any rate, since he’ll likely keep his job, it would be nice if the owners at least realize that he has a gap in ability when it comes to free agents, and provide him with an appropriate assistant or other executive to help out in that area.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 5, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Aug 8, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuckity fuck Mcfuckerson
The Giants will never have a competent offense with Brian Sabean in charge. Never. He has absolutely no idea how to evaluate offensive talent.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Aug 5, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would resign both and make sure Dick Tidrow and his fine 'stache stays too
The Bonds era teams won a stack of games and got one hand on the WS trophy.
I blame Magowan for hanging onto the Bonds and sundry vets formula beyond its sell-by date. Sabean is after all an employee and doesn’t necessarily merit the the blame for beating that horse too long. It was win now in the steroid era, so I can’t condemn the focus on value with vets. You thought you knew what you getting (you never truly do know, of course). As for some of the signings and the price tags, oh well, everybody’s vision is 20/20 with their eyeglasses on their ass looking back.
As for the current state of the organization, I’m pleased. It hasn’t been very long since Bond’s recliner took up half the locker room. My only major problem is the folly of the Zito signing. Here, too, I would bet that the finger should get pointed at Magowan. Post-Bonds marketing panic, I presume. But what do I know, I would love to have been a fly on the wall during those discussions.
The current club is ahead of schedule. It plays with energy and enthusiam. The clubhouse seems to be full of happy campers. You need the positive influence of seasoned professionalism in there, too. I’m thinking of Richie, whether or not he can still play baseball. I respect management for treating him with dignity. What goes around, comes around… think of Sandoval saying he signed with the Giants because Alfonso told him the organization was a class act.
The scouting has been improved with a competitive presence in Latin America. I don’t know what is being done in Asia. Recent drafts seem to have been good. The pipeline looks to be stocked and the future appears bright. i think the Giants were a bit ahead of the curve in seeing that pitching was going reassert itself post-steroids and prepared for it.
My hat’s off to Tidrow for convincing the Giants to draft Lincecum. Conventional wisdom didn’t subscribe to diminuitive in a pitcher’s body type.
Obviously, thanks in large part to quality starts, Bochy is handling the bullpen judiciously, an easy improvement over Flippy and Dusty. I never followed San Diego much, but didn’t Bochy have a good rep with bullpen management? Granted, the cleanup spot and Molina’s sensitivity are perplexing. Again, wouldn’t it be nice to be a fly on the wall. But as long as a youngish team’s trajectory is forward, there is virtue in continuity. People skills with the players, bullpen management, and good relations with the boss are all that really matter at the end of it all. The rest is just details better left to competent assistants. Not much different than it is in any other line of work.
The Tuna says, “You are what your record says you are.” Eleven games over 500, at this juncture, is not a case for going in another direction
"Hey old-timer, where am I ?"
"You can't get there from here."
by pynchon59 on Aug 5, 2009 1:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
thinking like this is sort fo the problem....
This “club” isn’t growing, 3 guys are growing and carrying all of the weight.
Props to the Giants Brass for getting these 3 incredible youngsters, but boo to them for putting virtually nothing around them. If this team was ran well, we could be closer to LA fighting for this division and homefield advantage rather than fighting for the WC.
Pretty much no team in baseball gets as much value out of 3 players than we do. Those 3 are responsible for half of our production above replacement and they represent 5% of our payroll. That means the other 95% of payroll, 80-85 million dollars, is spent just terribly.
We should be an elite team right now, yet people think we are doing so well because we’ve been run so poorly, the baseline is set so low.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What were the expectations on opening day?
Unlike pastry you pop in the oven and set the timer, who would have guessed that these 3 young studs would have scaled Mt. Olympus so soon.
"Hey old-timer, where am I ?"
"You can't get there from here."
by pynchon59 on Aug 5, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
the expectations were low because Sabean did a poor job putting together a club since his last superstar was done.
Now he’s got a new one (who won the CY last year so I don’t think many expected him to not do well this year) and some promising youngers. Cain’s ERA has been much better, partially due to luck, but Cain has been a great player for the past 3 years. No shock here.
Sandoval is indeed the biggest shock (I’m as shocked as anyone) but nonetheless he flashed this potential in the bigs last year, so it isn’t completely unheralded.
It’s not like Sabean didn’t spend money and that’s why we are who we are, he spent a lot actually. He was trying to build a winning team fast, but spent money poorly so now we do have a winning team, but we should have an amazing team
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that long ago that the Bonds circus packed it’s bags.
The Giants exist in that precarious situation where they couldn’t just blow it up and start over. Pop the pastry in the oven and wait til it’s ready. They got a stadium to pay off and need to keep fannies in the seats every year. And they’re not the Yankees or Red Sox that can just open the checkbook and buy a contending team off the shelf of free agency. The Giants gotta try to do both on the fly. Difficult balancing act.
Sabean is by no means perfect, but the transition time from when they hung it up with Bonds to having many of the key pieces in place for the next run, either ready or still in the oven, has been reasonably short. Never short enough for impatient fans. But I don’t think we’re gonna end up in that endless purgatory some teams end up in. Never good enough to win it all, and never bad enough to throw in the towel and start over from scratch. Seattle Supersonics, Utah Jazz, Phoenix Suns come to mind….
"Hey old-timer, where am I ?"
"You can't get there from here."
by pynchon59 on Aug 5, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
once again...
your blinded by the results and not the process.
We’ve been extremely fortunate on the emergence of Pablo and Lincecum happened so quickly. Hell, we are lucky we even got Lincecum, who was the best college starter in the draft, but fell to 10 because of cost and size scares.
Still, you say we are not like the Red Sox and Yankees, but in actuality we are a lot closer to them than most teams. Their payrolls may dwarf ours, but our Payroll is the 2nd highest in our division, and at times in the past it had been the highest. Look at the composition of our roster. We have 85-90 million on the books in player payroll.
Of that 85-90 million, 3-4 million are going to Pablo, Lincecum, and Cain who are the threee players that make us a winning team. So that leave the other 80-85 million going to…well…the rest of the crap.
Our amazing luck with Pablo and Lincecum has led us into winning quickly, but really, if things were run well it should have led us into greatness. No team in baseball is getting as much production out of such a small fraction of our payroll as we get from those 3, and yet we cannot adequately spend the rest of our money to get a suitable supporting cast.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every team gets “lucky” in terms of what superstars play out for them. That’s a horrible cop-out.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 6, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In slight defense of Nefi’s intent here (Careful with that axe Eugene Dave !).
I think he is referring more to a subthread a couple days ago were he pointed out just how much WAR is produced by our Super Wonderful Trio and just how little is produced but our biggest contracts as well as the not much better production out of the middle of the road contract. I don’t think he is trying to cop-out as much as say how almost all our “good” luck is in only 3 players.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Aug 6, 2009 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
No team gets as much production out of 4 million dollars as we do. Yet, we are completely unable to take advantage of that fact.
Next year Lincecum and Cain will cost about 12-14 million dollars, which is still dirt cheap, but clearly a big increase, an increase that is only going to get worse.
Right now we have this huge window of advantage because we are paying Superstars like replacement level players. We are going to have to pay them closer to their worth very soon, and when that happens we will either a) lose one because all of our money is tied into terrible contracts or b) have very little wiggle room to improve other aspects of the club.
if Sabean was good and spending efficiently, issue b wouldn’t be problem, but he’s proved time and time again he cannot spend worth a damn
by NeifiChicken on Aug 6, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isnt where I parked my car
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
by CB30 on Aug 5, 2009 9:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One level up, dude.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often then I blarg).
by can of corn on Aug 5, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No!
Fire Sabean and go steal the Pirate’s GM IMMEDIATELY.
Bochy I could stand (he manages a pitching staff well) if there was a GM who had the wherewithal to tell him to stop batting Molina cleanup.
Eugenio "Skinny Panda" Velez post All Star OPS 1.079
by cybermaldonado on Aug 6, 2009 8:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No need to go that far...
there’s a perfectly acceptable candidate sitting in an office 10 miles from the Phone Book on any given workday.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Aug 8, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry PT, I live farther than 10 miles from the park.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Aug 8, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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