Is The Giants’ Minor Pitching Depth That Much Shallower?
In the wake of two somewhat-controversial trades, some questions have risen about whether or not the Giants have sacrificed their pitching depth in the minors. Have the trades of Tim Alderson and Scott Barnes really left the Giants shorthanded in the minors?
Certainly, the Giants depth is shallower, but the Giants are not without a lot of starting pitching in the system. At every level, there is still a strong selection of starters. Here’s a look at them, ranked in a very non-scientific way.
1. Madison Bumgarner - It should hardly be a surprise that Bumgarner tops the list. It could be legitimately argued that Bumgarner is the top pitching prospect in the minors right now. His presence is the single most overwhelming thing allowing the Giants to consider trading a prospect with the possible ceiling of Tim Alderson.
2. Jorge Bucardo - Bucardo, 19, has been an intriguing young pitcher in the system along with his older brother. Jorge has been the early leader of the Volcanoes this season, and despite some rough spots more recently, he has the overall mix that could make him a strong pitcher in the middle of a rotation.
3. Kevin Pucetas - Pucetas gets looked over since he does not have overwhelming stuff, but the PCL All-Star has been very consistent at every level. He is very much the right-handed ideal of what Scott Barnes might become, but he’s doing it and is knocking on the door of the majors. He could be a middle or back of the rotation starter.
4. Joe Martinez - Another player who is on the verge with the majors, Martinez led the Eastern League in ERA before earning an unlikely spot in the majors. Like Pucetas, Martinez doesn’t have overwhelming stuff, but does have the ability to pitch with a good knowledge of how. A lot of doubt comes from how his unfortunate injury will affect him, but he’s likely to make a start for the big league team this week on his comeback from that injury, after being a healthy scratch from Triple-A Fresno on Monday.
5. Ben Snyder - Snyder is a bit of a question mark - the truth is, he hasn’t been a starter this season. However, his extended relief appearances make him a candidate to return to the role, and he has had an excellent season in Double-A.
6. Clayton Tanner - Tanner, 21, is still young, but he has a bit to overcome. Although he is doing very well this season, he is only repeating the level at San Jose, and needs to show he can make the move to the next level. He has a good changeup, and that should push him higher.
7. Wilber Bucardo - Wilber, 21, is a little older than his brother and at the same level, but Bucardo has one standout pitch; his sinker. While he is repeating the short-season level, if he can get control of that pitch, he could move up very quickly.
8. Craig Clark - Clark has caught the headlines with his strikeouts this season, but his stuff is not overwhelming. He’ll need to find out more ways to get out right-handed batters at the higher levels to stick as a true starter candidate.
9. Henry Sosa - Simply put, Sosa could be #2 on this list. He could also be off of it. Sosa was showing what he could do, again, before getting injured, again, this time in Connecticut. The success at a higher level means he can be legitimate, but he has to stay healthy.
10. Bryan Salsbury - Salsbury is an X-Factor in this list. An All-American Junior College pitcher when drafted in 2009, the 19-year old is now on a string of three scoreless starts in the Arizona League and is unusually harder on left-handed batters than right-handers. It’s hard to project a pitcher at this level, but Salsbury could be much higher on this list by the end of the year.
11. Daryl Maday - Maday, who turns 24 in a little more than a week, has had a bit of a surprising career since being a 30th round pick in 2006, but he had a strong debut in 2007 and a great 2008, and has been fairly strong in Double-A this season. A low 90’s fastball and a good slider, Maday has a foundation to be a good middle or back of the rotation starter.
12. Kyle Nicholson - Nicholson, 24, has had great minor league numbers, but those numbers get tempered as he is an older prospect after being drafted as a college senior. This season, he has dominated the South Atlantic League and has just earned a promotion to San Jose, taking the spot of Barnes.
13. Jesse English - English, 24, has had a long path on his way to the majors. The left-hander with a good fastball still has a shot, but it’s not a good one. He is still far too vulnerable to right-handed batters to move up as a starter as he is now, and is probably more likely to move as a specialist reliever.
14. Ryan Sadowski - Sadowski famously made his major league debut earlier this season, taking the spot of Jonathan Sanchez, but he has had some problems in more recent starts. Sadowski has good stuff, but not the kind that plays well as a starter. He might make his return as a bullpen guy, where his unflappable attitude and ability to deceive with a lesser fastball might make more sense.
15. Cameron Lamb - Lamb, 20, has been very strong this season in the Arizona League. Lamb was signed out of Australia in 2007, and made scattered appearances in 2007, but did not play in 2008. There’s no scouting reports on him yet, but Lamb has a good strikeout rate, with some need to work on his control.
There is, of course, one other name to consider: Zack Wheeler. The first round draft pick is still unsigned, but he has quite the promise. Where would he rank if signed? Well, if his pre-draft scouting reports hold, he would be the #2 player on this list. The young left right-hander has a lot of potential, and could be a front of the rotation starter. The Giants must feel confident they can sign him, as his presence gives the Giants a second top pitching prospect, making Alderson expendable.
So, where would the departed players place on this list? Alderson started the season as SFDugout.com’s #2 prospect overall, but his status has slipped. His velocity is down and his control is off, and the question is how mechanical his issues are. While the ceiling remains high, he’d probably be the #3 pitcher on this list (not including Wheeler). His inconsistency puts him a bit behind Pucetas in my eyes, who doesn’t have as high a ceiling, but has been so consistent that he is as close to a sure thing to make the majors as anyone in the system and should provide good rotational depth.
Barnes, meanwhile, would be fifth on the list as it stands (sixth, if you include Alderson). He has the consistency, but is still quite a bit away from the majors. Still, he’s a very good prospect who could have the level of Pucetas and Martinez ahead of him if he proves himself at higher levels.
The Giants definitely traded away two of their better pitching prospects, but not their best. Considering the players the Giants have in the system around them, the young pitchers now in the majors, and the big prospect that is unsigned but likely to join the team soon, the Giants haven’t cut themselves off at the knees, and should still have plenty of options to make the major league rotation over the next three seasons.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Tanner
He showed what he could do last year in San Jose. I was surprised that he was repeating the level at all, but due to the overall depth of the pitching between A+ and AA, he seemed to be the odd man out. He’s ready for AA.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 9:26 AM PDT reply actions
great writeup, btw.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I completely agree.
Thank you for the perspective/refresher that was sorely needed after the post-trade fumings here and elsewhere.
(You’d think Barnes and Tim A were the only arms we had on the farm, lol)
by KrazyKrabMeat on Aug 4, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 9:30 AM PDT reply actions
T: I still don’t understand what it did. Mind control animals… ooooooooooooohhh
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I heard a rumor that Tom Cruise was the voice of Captain Planet.
It’s not true, but I like to repeat it as if it was.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
wow this is simply amazing.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 4, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
can’t stop laughing lol
Adopted Giant: Eli Whiteside
The real genius behind the no-no
by BleedBlackNOrange on Aug 4, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You guys know what he's doing right??
His eyes are trying to change Oprah from a woman to a man or he wouldn’t be attracted.
T
there was actually an episode about how lame it was (of course the kid who had it found out it was the most powerful of all in the end or some hippy crap)
by TimLincecumIsGod on Aug 9, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
that show was even worse than Thundercats
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
You're only saying this
because you hate mother nature
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
because you hatemother natureWhoopi Goldberg
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
James Bond Jr. takes the prize for worse cartoon idea ever.
Bionic 6 & Silverhawks were the most underrated. Discuss.
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Thundercats is good. You are not.
Proud new co-dad of Travis Ishikawa. And ishikaBOOM Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Aug 4, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Uh…no comment…
But panthro is so cool!
Proud new co-dad of Travis Ishikawa. And ishikaBOOM Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Aug 4, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions

That’s on me, sorry.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Is there really such thing as a #5 starter?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
They exist….in my dreams!
I actually hate the terminology of “[number] starter!” So, I’ll revise my comment. I can’t see him being very good in the majors as a starting pitcher.
Admittedly, “I can’t see him being very good in the majors as a starting pitcher AT BEST” doesn’t have the same ring to it as the number-starter system.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Pussy Toss for the nickname win?
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
And for people who think that's sexist, see my username
I like cats
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
- starter, at best
Daily Gameball and Joker at GIANTSBOARD.COM
Say Hey Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
autoformat fail
No. 8 Starter at best
Daily Gameball and Joker at GIANTSBOARD.COM
Say Hey Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
Let's practice for next season
“Aww, not POOcetas again!”
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Honestly, my first reaction looking at that list: Dang! that’s pretty damn shallow.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Aug 4, 2009 9:51 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
mine too... I was actually surprised by this.
I think compared to the division, you guys have the clear cut best overall single talent in MadBum, but your depth of pitching prospects has fallen behind the Padres after all of their trades and Rockies and maybe even the Dodgers. If there’s one thing that you don’t need to worry about though, lacking pitching prospects probably tops the list. You always seem able to restock arms very quickly.
From a rival envy standpoint, MadBum, the Bucardos, and possibly Sosa are the only pitchers that would be exciting to me if they switched teams.
any list where Ben Snyder is toward the top is not a good one.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
I don't think it's that shallow...
Yes, I’m higher on Martinez and particularly Pucetas than most, but I look at what they’ve done (consistently) in the minors as they’ve (quickly) moved up the system. I look at teams who are desperate for a guy who can consistently put up high-3, low-4 ERAs and add depth to a rotation and always give their teams a chance to win…that kind of a pitcher would be a big addition to most playoff contenders not named the Giants or Dodgers.
However, I think the bigger thing is the number of high ceiling guys at the bottom of the list. Like I said, Sosa has a ceiling of #2 on this list, even higher than Alderson, if he can pull together the health. And there are a couple of recent signees and draftees that could shoot up the list, too.
Not every prospect can be a Lincecum; I think some of us have forgotten just how often even the ‘premium’ prospects can flame out…and Giants fans who have been here for the Ainsworth/Williams/Foppert times should know better than anyone.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
this is true.....
and Giants fans who have been here for the Ainsworth/Williams/Foppert times should know better than anyone.
But I think that hammers home the point even more that the odds of guys who are seemingly worse is just that much smaller.
Martinez and Pucetas have decent ERA’s but they are old for their levels and Pucetas component stats this season aren’t particularly good given that (cannot even maintain a 2:1 K/BB ratio)
As for Sosa’s #2 ceiling, well, if that is indeed stille true, he’s currently locked in the basement, quite far away from that ceiling. The power arm is still there, but his K rate has taken huge leaps back and it looks like the pen might be the best place for him (he reaks of Merkin Valdez)
This was pretty much my feeling as well.
But Brute, I really question your next to last paragraph. The bottom of the this list is Lamb, Sadowski, Nicholson, English, Maday. Who are the high ceiling guys here? Lamb possibly (since little is known about him). Mostly this is just more of the too old for their league, good ERA iffy peripherals types (more Pucetases in other words), plus Sadowski. For me the lack of high ceiling guys is an issue (and possibly you’re just not mentioning some of the live arm guys that do exist because their upside is thus far mostly being shown in the bullpen and we can’t see it from the numbers yet (some report lots of velocity from Concepcion, so maybe he’s this type).
But when I see that list I see more Sadowski about it than upside. Certainly nobody here has been a bigger supporter of Jorge Buccardo than I (and I’m probably going to put him somewhere in our Top 10 prospects this winter), but I think when he’s #2 on your list of our system’s SP candidates, that’s saying the list isn’t very deep.
Also, Aaron King and Eric Surkamp should be on here somewhere.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I’d say Lamb and Nicholson are the two high-ceiling guys I see in that end list.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 6, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
High upside? Kyle Nicholson is no upside, he’s anti-upside. And clearly the Giants think so too, or they wouldn’t stick a 23 year old polished college senior in the Complex league for an entire summer — and he still couldn’t produce particularly good perhipheral numbers. A 24 year old in A ball striking out less than 5 per 9 and a 3.70 FIP is the opposite of upside.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
There’s more to upside than peripherals. And there’s enough complaining about how the Giants handle promotions/nonpromotions than to just use how the Giants place a player in a league as a reason he’s not high or upside. College seniors are sometimes as in-need of unlearning something as are the kids from latin America as teens. The Giants know how to do that with pitchers.
What I saw out of Nicholson in Augusta, and I expect to like what I see out of him in San Jose. It would not surprise me to see him in Fresno sometime next summer.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 7, 2009 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Same
Compared to, say, the A’s system, which has graduated 4 (!) top prospects but still has probably 5 guys (Ynoa, Ross, Simmons, De Los Santos, Capra, maybe Marks too) who would be #2 on this list.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
thoughts on some of the Augusta guys?
I haven’t seen these guys pitch, but their numbers are respectable to good:
Eric Surkamp – just turned 22 and has a lot of strikeouts and few walks.
Aaron King – (20 y/o) – I expected more strikeouts, but he hasn’t been awful.
Ryan Verdugo – (22 y/o) not a lot to go on stats-wise, but seems to be a strikeout pitcher
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 10:01 AM PDT reply actions
I'm a velo-whore so
I’d rank Surkamp/King/Verdugo (if he returns to starting) higher than many of the prospects on this list.
Pucetas/Snyder/Clark./Nicholson/Sadowski strike me as replacement level players with not much room for projection. Replacement players have their uses but they aren’t particularly valuable. I’d think they would only crack a top 20 list of a weak farm system.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I wasn’t big on King upon seeing him. His slurve gets swing throughs at the lower levels, but he’ll have to refine the control on it a bit to keep getting that in the higher levels. Surkamp struck me the same way Clark did the first time I saw him….he did good, but it just didn’t jump out. I DID get the jump-out feeling upon seeing Nicholson, but I’ve dampered my enthusiasm considering his age. However, if he gets to Double-A or Triple-A to start next season, he’ll move up quick.
Verdugo I haven’t seen, so I don’t want to say yet.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, it's pretty shallow
Bumgarner is still obviously a top pitching prospect (maybe the best left in the minors) but beyond him there’s just not that much.
1) Pucetas and Martinez to me seem like long relievers if they are even big leaguers. Pat Misch was doing more impressive stuff than either of them at their age.
2) The good Bucardo has some promise, but he’s so far off it’s pretty hard to read him.
3) Ben Snyder – Quite a longshot given his age and that he’s not even starting anymore.
To me, outside of Bumgarner (and likely Zack Wheeler once he signs) there is really just nothing very special at all in our system pitchingwise. Yes, you can look at a few guys and see some reason to have some optimism, but almost all systems have guys like that. Our system was, and still is, completely top heavy and we just took a big piece off the top and one of the only pieces in the middle.
Seriously, outside of Bumgarner, Posey, Villalona, and Neal is there really anyone that good in our system? Even within that subset, there’s still tons of questions on the latter two.
At some point next year, it’s likely MadBum and Posey will be on the big club and once that happens I think our system will be in the bottom 10, maybe 5 in baseball (albeit because we graduated some bigtime prospects)
re: Sosa
has taken a big step back this year with his K rate, given that he’s older than he should be for AA. It sounds like he’s on the path of Merkin to me
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Bad shoulder
Health issues again likely explain his decline in K/rate
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 4, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Still a big problem
given the dangerous nature of pitching, I don’t know if having shoulder’s problem yet again is necessarily any better.
Agreed
He’s an injury waiting to happen until proven otherwise.
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 5, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Yet again?
I thought that the injury that kept him out of the first part of 2008 was a leg injury, and had nothing to do with his arm? Are you saying that he had a shoulder problem between his breakout year in Augusta/SJ in 2007, or are you referring to somthing he had prior to 2007? When he came back at the end of last year his K rate was fine.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
last year he actually had a chest/back problem after his knee. I guess that’s not directly shoulder, but it’s still not good. Nonetheless, his K rate has disintegrated this year due to an arm problem, which is pretty scary
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Any time I hear about shoulder problems for a pitcher it’s troubling. We haven’t heard anything about any major problems that would require surgery yet, so let’s wait and see on that. I hadn’t heard about the chest/back problem, but it probably came about due to complications arising from tryinig to pitch too soon after the rehab from his leg injury (see also the Yankee’s SP Wang this year).
I’m not that worried about his K rate going down, because it several posters on other threads had reported that his velocity was down more than a little this year – hence the lower K’s. I was more worried before I knew that he has some arm issues that would explain the loss of V. In a contrarian way, I also feel positive about the fact that Sosa was able to put up good stats this year (except for K’s) even with the reduced V. That tells me that he is a pitcher, not just a hurler, and he can win with only an average fast ball and his secondary stuff.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think you’re underrating the Giant’s farm or overrating other farm systems. Depending on how things shake out, there are 7-10 legitimate B-level prospects. Even after Madbum and Posey, the farm system will be average to above average.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
really, who?
1) Villaona – B based soley on his age and talent. His performance would be in the C- range
2) Neal – B/B+ so much of his prospect status will be determined next year at AA. Definitely interesting.
3) Wheeler – probably rates as a B/B+ immediately once he signs, A upside
4) Joseph – Probably a solid B/B- once he signs.
5) Good Buchardo – A nice solid B, that could rise once he can reach higher levels and prove it
No one else would get consideration from me.
If you think any of our A-AAA pitchers not named MadBum are good check out San Diego’s high-A pitching staff (overall system rank was in bottom 10) and compare it to our guys. They blow us out of the water, and SD will be lucky if one of those guys sticks as a big leaguer SP
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Sickels in December - top 20 Giants prospects
1) Madison Bumgarner, LHP, Grade A: Health is a risk as with any young pitcher, but incredible performance at a young age and improved secondary stuff stands out.
2) Buster Posey, C, Grade A-: Excellent defense, should hit for average with high OBP and at least moderate power.
3) Tim Alderson, RHP, Grade B+: Borderline A-. Doesn’t have Bumgarner’s stuff but pitched well at a higher level with great command.
4) Angel Villalona, 1B, Grade B: Grade A power potential, Grade C refinement. Horrid plate discipline balances out extreme youth at this point.
5) Conor Gillaspie, 3B, Grade B-: I like the Midwest guys. Polished bat, will hit for average and get on base, glove needs to be more reliable but I think it will.
6) Henry Sosa, RHP, Grade B-: Good arm, but a bit erratic, can he stay healthy?
7) Nick Noonan, 2B, Grade B-: Strike zone judgment needs work but I like the other skills.
8) Travis Ishikawa, 1B, Grade C+: In under the 130 at-bat rule. Should be a solid player but I don’t see stardom in him.
9) Waldis Joaquin, RHP, Grade C+: Fits the tradition of power arms in this organization.
10) Rafael Rodriguez, OF, Grade C+: I have no idea where to rank guys like this. Could be anything from a superstar to a superdud.
11) Jose Casilla, RHP, Grade C+: Another power arm of interest, though a long way away.
12) Clayton Tanner, LHP, Grade C+: I like him as a sleeper for ’09.
13) Jesse English, LHP, Grade C+: Added to 40-man roster, rebuilt his career following injuries with a strong year in the Cal League.
14) Scott Barnes, LHP, Grade C+: Intriguing lefty out of St. John’s in the 2008 draft. Good stuff, decent command.
15) Luis Perdomo, RHP, Grade C+: Nice pickup in the Rule 5. Could help in bullpen quickly.
16) Ehire Adrianza, SS, Grade C+: Good scouting reports, good glove, sample size very small. Could rise rapidly in grade in ’09. Other sources will rank him higher.
17) Kelvin Pichardo, RHP, Grade C+: Another power arm who can help if he throws strikes.
18) Sergio Romo, RHP, Grade C+: In under the 50-inning rule Great story, I like him a lot, but beware fly balls and unsustainable BABIP leading to regression to mean.
19) Jesus Guzman, 3B, Grade C+: Signed away from Oakland as minor league free agent. I think his progress was real.
20) Joseph Martinez, RHP, Grade C: Wins with marginal stuff. Can he do this in the majors?
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
I love Sickels' site
But isn’t particularly knowledgeable when it comes to the Giants’ org.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure
That’s what every organization says when Sickels rates players they like as C+s
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 5, 2009 1:12 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s true that John tends to stay in the midwest so he very rarely sees any of the Giants players. And I’m not sure how much he talks to scouts. Once you get away from the people he actually sees (mostly Midwest League, Texas League people) I think he relies of numbers crunching over anything else.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
It’s not really that he underranks Giants prospects actually. He overranks as much as he underranks.
Two examples: in his 2008 list, he did not have Sandoval on his top 20. I had him at 16. In 2009 (before this season started) he did not include Thomas Neal. I had him at #13. Now sure this is me cherrypicking, and this could be a difference in ranking ideology, but those are two huge misses. And consider that he’s an expert with scouting contacts who’s making a living off of this while I’m just loser who’s spending a bunch of time looking at stats and reading secondhand scouting reports.
Incidentally I’ve been working on a project weighing John Sickels’ lists against BA, BP, and my own (something I’ll probably post in the offseason once prospect lists start coming out). BA’s list has been consistently the best and I’ve beaten Sickels in every year going back to 06. BP varies wildly from year to year.
But all that said, I still like Sickels and his site a lot. As Roger says he seems knowledgeable about teams and affiliates in the Midwest (of which the Giants have none). Plus anyone who is a Trekkie is alright in my book.
Gone are Alderson, Barnes, Perdomo, Romo, Ishi, and Joey. Sosa, English, Conor probaly dropped their grades. Anyone else ,moving up from C+ to B-range?
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
ahhhhh....
Thomas Neal. Probably a solid B for Sickels now.
I’d say Runzler probably gets a B- on his scale.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 4, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually I wound’t be surprised if Sickels ranks Runzler. Not that I’d agree with it, but he always tosses in one or two relievers in the back end of his list.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
In 06 he included Ben Neito. In 07 he listed Justin Hedrick. It’s like a mundane version of the SI curse.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Screw age.
He’s always had high velocity, but no command. Guys like that usually make everyone turn their heads when they start throwing strikes.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 4, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
you sure?
His velocity has generally been from 88-92 his entire career. I hear he’s hit 95 a few times this year, but that’s generally his exception, not his rule
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
89-92 is pretty good for a lefty. Not high velocity but still respectable.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, but he’s 24 at high A. he should be in AAA. I can see if his stuff was just so unhittable that it didn’t matter, but his performance needs to be taken with a grain of salt since his velo is just average and he’s just way too old for his level.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
wrong on 2 claims
You’re wrong on your average velo assumption – he sits at 92-93, and touches 94 (see my post below). You also claim that he hasn’t been unhittable, but I don’t know how else you can categorize a 0.56 WHIP & .104 BAA in SJ this year. Especially when you crunch the numbers and see that he’s only allowing 3.3 hits, 1.6 BBs, & 10.8 Ks per 9 innings.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
wrong on velocity numbers
BaronVonCurrentEvents posted the following eye-witness account on Runzler after seeing him in a SJ game this year:
Big Dan Runzler is fun to watch. He looks stockier than his listed weight of 215, but he’s definitely tall. He throws hard too, consistent at 93 and reaching 94. His offspeed stuff in the 70s was not thrown for strikes. I counted three different speed guns on him among the scouts, and one Mariners scout took out his gun (not a euphemism I swear) just for Runzler. I asked him what he was looking for and he said just to check if the reports on Runzler’s velocity were true.
Sure he’s a bit old for the league, but it’s only his 2nd full season in the pros, and it’s not his fault the Giants haven’t promoted him to AA yet – his numbers scream for a promotion. He’s not just having a good season, he’s been thoroughly dominant. His awesome numbers actually got better when he was promoted to SJ. Here’s his SJ stat line:
19 G / 21.1 in. / 0.84 era / 8 H / 4 BB / 26 K / .104 BAA / 0.56 WHIP
That works out to 3.3 hits, 1.6 BBs, & 10.8 Ks per 9 innings
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
then his velo really picked up then when I last saw him, when was sitting at 88-91.
I hope he’s the real deal, but I’ve seen enough Bateman’s and Hedrick’s in my day dominate San Jose at his age to be a little skeptical
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
..and Sergio Romo
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 5, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
fair enough, that is a good example, I’m not ruling out that Runzler could be a ML reliever, but I still think it’s safer to bet against it. I hope he does, but he needs to be pushed a lot harder by the Giants brass
Yeah
He still has a long way to go, and one should never count on pitchers until they’re actually in the majors and performing. IMO, One good thing about his age is that if he can continue to do well it should be easier for him to adjust to the majors than a younger guy. Also, I know that other relievers have done very well in SJ, but I just don’t remember Bateman and Hedrick putting up the insanely dominant numbers that Runzler has so far – I mean a BAA of .100 and a WHIP of 0.56 goes way beyond a low era and lots of saves.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
My only point is it’s stuff and performance that are important. Bateman was a submariner who threw 82, and Hedrick threw in the mid-80’s. He also didn’t endear himself by coming to big league camp totally unprepared.
This could easily be a Hinshaw-esque blip of control on the Runzler radar, which I think is why he’s still in San Jose, but he’s got the fastball. That alone is cause for excitement, or at least a second glance.
The age thing gets goat in this case. He’s a 2007 draftee. Were he a 2005 draftee, and it took 3 years to get out of low A (see Craig Whitaker) it would be an issue for me.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 6, 2009 5:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough...
you’ve done a good job convincing me, even though we’re just talking about a potential lefty reliever.
If what you say about his fastball are really true, then you’ve sold me more than I was sold yesterday
by NeifiChicken on Aug 6, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Off the top of my head...
Not including the prospects on your list:
Probable B: Raf-Rod
Probable B-: Kieschnick, Noonan, Dominguez, Crawford, Sosa, Adrianza,
In the discussion: Gillaspie, Tanner, and Bond (if you squint and see Luis Castillo)
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess we’ll have to see how it shakes out. But you’re also projecting a list for prospects at the end of next season right? So the optimist in me would assume that a few of these prospects you have as C+ will take a step forward.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Hopefully
Either way, these Sickels grades arent too important, it’s about how many guys we actually think wil be big league players. At this point, Bumgarner and Posey seem like above average big leaguers. Neal could be, we’ll have to see. Wheeler will likely join those ranks soon. Outside of that, there’s some upside (like any team’s system), but a lot of risk.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
True
I guess that’s my big hold up with Brute’s list. Prospecting isn’t really about depth. If a team needs a 5th starter/ reliever, the GM can just go to the scrap heap and pick one up. Sabean did a great job shoring up the pitching staff this off-season without spending much.
It’s far more important for a farm to develop impact players that the team can control for 6 years. .
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, impact guys or even really anyone that can be around league average.
To me, having depth means you have a number of guys that at least can hover around league average, which is something most of the guys on this list won’t be able to do. If you stack this list 2-15 amongst most big league clubs, we’d definitely be towards the bottom.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
He had Rodriguez as a C+ before the season, and Rodriguez is now putting up .265/.384/.313 in the AZL. Why is that going to warrant a jump from C+ to B? I don’t see Sickels rating him above C+ again.
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 5, 2009 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure we’re having the same conversation. I’m listing players that I would rank in the B/B- range. If you’ll scroll up you’ll see that the topic branched a bit. My own grading (and I assume NeifiChicken’s as well) is not based on Sickels in any way.
As for why I’d have him at B… His scouting report when he signed indicated that he had good power potential and speed. The biggest worry I had about him was his hitting and plate discipline. His performance thus far has allayed those concerns. So I see a fast sixteen year old with good plate discipline and power potential holding his own in SS ball. I might adjust the grade once the season concludes, but he seems to be better than your run of the mill C+ kid.
You’re a bit off on Rodriguez.
There wasn’t much concern about his contact ability, it was whether his power will ever manifest: he’s got huge raw power, but he’s a got a front footed swing, which may prevent the power from being realized. That’s still an open question.
Still, he has held his own well, and I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the walks, as few bonus babies show that early on.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
Thanks for the correction
That does impact my assessment. Do you have a link to his SR?
by RougeGorrila on Aug 5, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Not on hand.
The BA assessment of the IFA class of last year, as well as that on the now defunct report on Saberscouting (Kiley McDaniel ran it—and he now handles the IFA stuff for BP). Erik at future redbirds had good info too. The write ups on Bagg’s blog was very good, and I believe there was one of sfgiants, as well, that was more than the usual fare.
Other than that, I follow the Latin American IFA scene quite closely and know someone people heavily involved in it, so I got a lot of good info on Rodriguez from them—nothing that was contrary to the published accounts, though.
I don’t know if I could give Rodriguez any grade at the moment, as i’m wary of giving any prospect not in full season league a grade. That said, he’s a very intriguing prospect. I didn’t expect the apparent discipline (though I’d love to see some ARL games to get a real view, as opposed to a statistical guess at his discipline). As far as tools that aren’t mentioned in the major reports: he’s got excellent hand-eye coordination, and good plate coverage.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
My bad on the branching
There are a LOT of posts in between the parts of the discussion I was keeping track of, and I have trouble following each post up in a vertical line sometimes. I get your point, and agree that it’s extremely difficult to evaluate a 17 year old prospect. We are running into the same issue with Michael Ynoa; some people want to rank him near the very top, while others say that zero experience equals zero ranking.
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 6, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Kind of off point, but both Stoffel and Casilla are exciting relief prospects.
I’ve heard that all of Toole, Concepcion and J. Bucardo (considering his age) have pretty good velocity.
Toole according to BA was 92-94 with a wicked curve that he had trouble controlling. He needs a solid offspeed pitch.
Someone on this board recently saw Concepcion and posted about him having lights out stuff. He’s got hit pretty hard in AZ but it seems like there’s a great deal to like about him.
Bucardo’s is going to fill out and perhaps add velocity and seems to have swing through stuff already.
Wilber’s sinker seems legit, Lamb and Salsbury are both pitching lights out, and we haven’t yet seen what Barrios can do.
I’m confident that we’ll sign Zach Wheeler and hopeful that we’ll be able to sign Matthew Graham as well.
I trust this organizations abilities to develop SP prospects, and I think the talent in the low/mid minors could look very promising in a year.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Aug 4, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Kind of off point, but both Stoffel and Casilla are exciting relief prospects.
Does anyone know why Casilla is a relief prospect? I know he’s relieving now, but is there any reason for this move? He always struck me as a great starting pitcher prospect – good sinker and gets strikeouts.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
His numbers this year are ridiculous. I wholeheartedly agree.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I was thinking that there might be an injury earlier and he’s just getting his arm into shape. That’s what I’m choosing to believe anyway. He’ll be a starter for Augusta next year.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
Might be protecting the arm...
Casilla had some serious injury issues last season.
A move back to the rotation might happen next season, but it might not.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
It might… but might not? Insightful.
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 4, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes...it generally means
The decision hasn’t been made yet, and the things that’d influence said decision haven’t happened.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, it’s a possibility but not a certainty. That is more than I knew about Casilla before reading that comment.
Thanks for being an ass to the guy who took the time to put this informative post together… I was going to compare it to one of your posts, but there aren’t any.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 4, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Jeeez
Sensitive. It was a joke. My apologize for using sarcasm.
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 5, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
And
It was a great post, BruteSentiment. Honestly, very good. Didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 5, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
OK, so apparently I’m cranky in the morning because I totally missed the jocularity.
It’s just that I respect and like Brute, and it seemed like a crappy thing to hassle him in his own fanpost. No hard feelings – I’ll try and be more circumspect in the future…
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 6, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
hrmmm interesting
i’d still love to have more depth obviously, but it’s reassuring to see the list of talent typed out. i’m still wary of some of the prospects… i tend to over-hype pitching prospects in my head.
GREAT piece of writing, btw.
how good is the giants' starting rotation? our rotation is so good, our 5th starters throw no-hitters. uh.
by Golden Gate Review on Aug 4, 2009 10:25 AM PDT reply actions
Not much top quality depth in the upper minors, but still a lot of telent in the lower minors.
I like Surkamp too, 11 SO per 9 innings is a nice line.
It’s worth noting that with Lincecum, Cain, Zito, Sanchez and Bumgarner locked up for at least couple more years, depth is needed for injuries and fifth starter competition. So one would suppose that if were left longing for our lost depth in any way, we were pretty much screwed anyhow.
That being said, our relief depth seems pretty deep with guys like Runzler, Edlefson, Patterson, Turpen, Rodriguez and Snyder.
I must say that I’ll be surprised if Alderson has anything more than a 3rd or fourth starter type career and his arm action looks like it could be injury prone. Skippy Barnes could be the one we regret trading.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 4, 2009 10:31 AM PDT reply actions
I must say that I’ll be surprised if Alderson has anything more than a 3rd or fourth starter type career and his arm action looks like it could be injury prone. Skippy Barnes could be the one we regret trading.
I’m enjoying the turnaround on Alderson.
Before trade – Young, good upside! Future mid-rotation SP!
After trade – His arm is going to fall off.
I’m not calling you out, personally, but I’m a little tired of reading it.
+1
I can’t believe it myself. Even with the velocity down he was pitching effectively at a level he was two years young for. If you can actually get him back to his old velocity, my god he’d be something.
Alderson seems like a good bet to give 200 league average innings a year, which is going to be worth a lot more than Freddy Sanchez at his pay rate
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Aldserson will eventually go the Dodgers and befuddle our offense. That’s not saying much, but still…
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 4, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Aldserson will eventually gothe Dodgersto any other team and befuddle our offense.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
If you can actually get him back to his old velocity, my god he’d be something.
ok, take a breath
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 4, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
eh, it's what people do
when dealing with the more well-known prospects. it’s easy to be excited by someone like Alderson, but it’s just as easy to throw crap on him when he leaves. fans do that all the time with players. it’s like an ex-gf. focus on the positives while she’s hot and around, point out all the negatives once she leaves.
how good is the giants' starting rotation? our rotation is so good, our 5th starters throw no-hitters. uh.
by Golden Gate Review on Aug 4, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well for me....
… I blame the MLB network. They showed highlights of his rm action, which is little more snappy then I remember it being in high school. It certainly explain his being unable to add velocity with that big frame, but I saw it and a big red flag when up.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 4, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
same here
I didn’t hear anything about his mechanics before the MLB Network guys mentioned it. It was really alarming and at the same time explained a lot.
no way to know that now
they did break down his mechanics the other night and showed everything he does right to keep stress off his arm, but this all easy to say considering all the success he’s had.
Are you really comparing the two?
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 4, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Not really. What I’m saying is that I’m not sure what good (or bad) mechanics look like. And I’m not sure anyone else does, either.
This
Mark Prior had picture perfect mechanics… Um, yeah.
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 4, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Kinda Sorta. No one is absolutely sure, as there is a lot of controversy and theories yet untested in the subject, as well a lot of good counter examples (bad mechanics, no problems; good mechanics, many problems).
The consensus seems to be that no one is quite sure what good mechanics are (and it seems to vary heavily given each body), but there are clear cut examples of bad mechanics, of which there isn’t much disagreement over (and of course, yet more controversy over things like the inverted w). There is very little real disagreement over whether and why those like Zumaya and Burnett carry injury concerns with them.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
his point is still valid
Everyone has a different definition of what good mechanics are and are not. Lincecum fell to us in the draft because a lot of teams didn’t like his mechanics because they are quite unique, just like Alderson’s.
The mechanics comp is a valid one, he didn’t say Alderson had Tim’s fastball
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
/shrugs
choosing pitching prospects is more a crap-shoot now than ever. on one hand, i like listening to “professional” analysis. on the other hand, i keep in mind that most of what they say is BS or will be proved wrong, one way or another.
how good is the giants' starting rotation? our rotation is so good, our 5th starters throw no-hitters. uh.
by Golden Gate Review on Aug 4, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think his arm will fall off...
…but his leg might bend the wrong way the way he’s hitting it. He used to float over, now he doesn’t, and that’s a big, big deal in my book.
And to be fair, I was saying that before the trade.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Surkamp is two years older than he should be for that level and sits at 84-87 with his fastball.
He’s almost assuredly not anything
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Wait, I thought the going rate was 20 million a year for lefties that hit 84-87 with their fastball.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Aug 4, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
loooolz
how good is the giants' starting rotation? our rotation is so good, our 5th starters throw no-hitters. uh.
by Golden Gate Review on Aug 4, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m intriqued with the SP talent on our short season rosters.
Jorge
Wilber
Toole
Salsbury
Concepcion
Lamb
It’s reasonable to expect at least one or two of them to elevate their status in the next year.
We have starting pitching talent, it’s just that most of it’s a ways a way.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Aug 4, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
We don’t need a lot of SP depth at the higher levels now as there aren’t many places to take in the Bigs. It would be nice to have some legitimate pitching prospects in AAA besides the former major leaguers/fringe major leaguers there now. Perhaps in a couple years we will see Tanner, Clark, English, Bucardo and others.
you’d really give equal weight of all of these bums to Barnes and Alderson?
Our depth 3/4 was cut in half. Most of this list won’t get more than a cup of coffee, if that
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I definitely agree most of this list won’t make it up, but I was also under the assumption that Wheeler’s upside > Tim2’s upside.
that's probably true
Wheeler seems like a tremendous talent. To me, he’s right behind Bumgarner on our pitching list (once he signs) and probably will be the next pitcher behind Bumgarner to be a legitimate big league SP.
Still, there’s a good chance he won’t move as fast as Alderson and MadBum did (that’s quite rare) so he’d likely be slated more towards a 2013-14 debut, whereas Alderson could’ve been ready by next year
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
and there’s less of a need to rush him at this point as well.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure about that. Right now we have two reliable SP — and one of them can leave us in two years.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
right, Cain is a FA after the 2011 season. By then Mad Bum should be in the rotation and hopefully be somewhat reliable. Who knows what Sanchez will be at that point. Zito will still be on the books.
I hope the Giants extend Cain beyond 2011 and believe they will, though it might depend on what happens with Lincecum (but hopefully not).
But, I’d like to see Wheeler pitch in the minors first before deciding whether to fast track him or not. If not, he could start 2010 in Augusta and 2011 in San Jose, he’d be set for AA in 2012 (assuming he isn’t a bust).
but if the team is depending on Wheeler in 2012, they’ll probably be in trouble anyway.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ll volunteer to camp outside Matt’s house next winter, waving a sign that says “Sign with the Giants….it’s for the children!”
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Try not to creep him out, Lyle, that could backfire!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Matt
I’m still hoping to figure out a way to interview him this winter. Just sending him a letter seems …. eh, kinda creepy. I need to find someone in town who knows him and can vouch that I’m not a stalker. Or not much of a stalker.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Does it really matter?
How many of these guys will even get a chance on our roster? The management will find ways to trade them or fill the roster with declining vets like always. Even if many of these guys end up talented enough for the bigs (which I believe they will), they’ll probably get overlooked. Look at Frandsen’s career minor league line. What chance has he had? I would much rather have Fred Sanchez at 2nd right now, but why didn’t Frandsen share playing time with Burriss in April and May? Garbage.
One big thing everyone needs to remember regarding the starting pitching is that we have two of the best pitchers in the league already on our roster, both around 25 years old. And we still don’t know what John Sanchez will do. If Bumgarner turns out decent in the bigs, we’re set anyway. What really interests me is how many relievers are doing so well in our system this year… that’s exciting.
Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete
Cain could bolt after 2011
I hope not, but if he keeps up his success he’d be looking at a 100+ million dollar contract
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
But...
He owns a home in the Bay Area!!! Mattyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 4, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
hopefully, he’ll get extended before then.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 4, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
If there’s something this org does right, it’s pitching. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but half of our pitching staff is homegrown.
There are plenty of reasons to be anoyed at the handling of Giants hitting prospects
But none for the handling of Giants pitching prospects.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
This doesn't bother me for a different reason.
I think the Giants can attract decent free agent pitchers. What they desperately need to develop are power-hitting position players, because none of those will be coming here willingly.
And I like where were are better than I have in a long time, with Neal, Dominguez, Villalona, Posey, Kieshnick and Crawford…at least 2 of those will pan out.
And I like where were are better than I have in a long time, with Neal,Dominguez, Villalona, Posey,KieshnickandCrawford…at least 2 of those will pan out.
Eh that doesn't really seem fair
Obviously all of Dominguez, Kieschnick and Crawford have serious flaws and might never amount to anything, but they all have things to like about them.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I’m obviously exaggerating to a degree (there’s still plenty of time), but realistically I have no expectations for any of them. Yes, anything is possible, I just put them all in the less than 5% chance of making category. Crawford probably has the most upside of the 3, but is clearly over matched right now.
My concern with pretty much all of our non-Posey prospects is that they just strike out way too damn much. They also don’t walk nearly enough to justify their high K rates. I know players can improve going ahead, but their competition if also going to improve, which could potentially exacerbate the situation. Neal has cut his a bit, and walks more than the other guys, so he can get a bit of a pass (also hits for more power than any of the others).
Villalona is so young for his level, that there’s at least that potential to improve.
Anything is possible, I’m not Karnak, but it’s already long enough odds for most prospects to hit as legitimate big leaguers, I just try not to get too into the longshots. If 2 of Posey/Neal/Villalona can be above average big leaguers, I’ll be quite happy with that, and it’s certainly reasonable.
If any of the others can even be league average, I’ll be ecstatic, because I don’t view the odds as remotely reasonable at this point
I'm wondering...
What has you so down on Dominguez already?
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 4, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
well...
I wasn’t too high on him out of the draft (fairly mediocre performance for a senior and one dimensional in his tools), and now that he’s made his pro debut I’m less enthused.
He’s one of the older players in the league and yet he’s striking out in 30% of his at-bats and only walking 6% of the time. It’s only 90-100 PA’s so it’s a small sample size, but still, it’s discouraging.
He’s almost 23 and there are teenager outshining him in that league. Maybe this turns around, but the early returns aren’t that good.
I'm sorry
All I heard from NeifiChicken was “I HATE THE GIANTS AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM”
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Aug 4, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We're just a top heavy organization
We have some really amazing players (Lincecum, Sandoval, Cain) a few solid ones (Affeldt, Wilson) and pile of players that are disgusting for a multitude of reasons. Our guys at the top are just so damn good they can carry the dead weight known as the rest of our team.
I truly believe if you looked at our bottom 18-20 players, they are as bad as any in baseball. The sad thing is that 90%+ of our payroll is sunk into those 18-20 players, that in essence are terrible.
It’s certainly better to have 3 exceptional players than 6 good ones, because it should seemingly be easier to make up for the gap at the vacant 3 positions, but our management hasn’t been up to the task, and that’s what frustrates me so much.
I agree
I was just kidding with my statement above too.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
an interesting number
The Giants collective WAR is 26.1, of that 26.1 our big three are worth 12.5 of those Wins, basically half of our entire production above replacement is owed to those 3 (Lincecum, Sandoval, Cain).
Those three combined make a combined total less than 4 million dollars. That means the rest our roster that is worth 13.6 WAR is making about 80 million dollars.
That means we are paying nearly 6 million per win, about 2 million above the 02-07 Free agent market price. Even worse, this number is weighed down by our positive contributors that make near the league minimum (Sanchez, Ishikawa, Lewis, Romo, Schierholtz, etc.)
To me, that is the biggest proof that Sabean needs to be fired. If our money was spent in just an AVERAGELY efficient manner, we’d be about 7-10 wins better. If it was spent above average, maybe we’re looking at 12-15 wins.
This team should be crazy good, and instead we are just scratching our way into October
by NeifiChicken on Aug 4, 2009 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
I really like this post.
It articulates part of what has been bothering me since the Freddy Sanchez trade that I had not been able to put my finger on. And why I have huge distrust for this manager & Gm combo when it comes to them dealing with players over 30 who have enough years to be free agents.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Agreed. And I don’t really think it’s a new issue either. It used to drive me crazy during the Bonds years that our payroll was so large, and made up predominantly of expensive mediocre (or worse) parts. It wasn’t Bond’s $20 mil that put us up against it financially, it was the $70 mil on the rest of the not very good players. It just didn’t seem like it should have been that difficult to put a great cast around Bonds for that amount of money.
To me the essential problem is I don’t trust Sabean’s valuation (or evaluation) of players. And no matter what other arguments you can make for or against, that’s a deal breaker in a GM’s skillset. If he doesn’t have that, what else can make up for it?
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
In some ways I give a slight pass for the Seven dwarfs of the Bonds years. The farm was not kicking out much of anything to could conceivable compete with the old almost average vets. I don’t like it but that was what it was.
That is also why the way playing time has been decided in the last 3 years drives me nuts. Outside of Rowand, Renteria, (and lesser extents of time Molinia and Winn) most of the others spots have had have possible in house production that was comparable, cheaper and had to potential to improve.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
The comment on valuation made me nod.
The reevaluation of Alderson’s lower ceiling by many (which I don’t completely share) helped me put my finger on what bothers me about Sabean. I do so in financial terms, which are easier to understand than WARs.
He’s been a fairly decent seller over time. But at very best he’s been only been an average buyer, and you can make a pretty good argument he’s been a lot worse than that.
Yes, this. Exactly this.
And this has been Brian Sabean’s trademark SINCE HE GOT HERE. Yes, even during the good years, 97-04.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
We’ve had this discussion before but at the risk of being redundant, Zito makes up 1/4 of that 80 million. Zito was publicized as a McGowan signing. You may put the blame on Sabean for signing Zito, but obviously people who have a better understanding of what went on (i.e. the board members) don’t agree.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries
I don’t quite get what you mean by just having average efficiency. If you look at the top payrolls in baseball, you’d be hard pressed to not find dead weight (maybe the Phillies?).
and 1/4 of that production that doesn’t come from our big 3 are developed guys. I’m going to turn it into a fanpost and expand on the idea (comparing us with other teams) but don’t put it all on Zito.
Rowand, Johnson, Renteria, Howry, Roberts, and Aurilia have added up to 40 million dollars this year and have literally been a sniff above replacement level. As bad as Zito’s contract is, it’s sort of on par with how our money is spent on the open market
Molina (though not this year), Winn, Uribe and Affeldt have more or less been worth their money.
I also do not like the whole “Zito is PMG’s fault” argument, unless we are painting PMG as a wild, wreckless Al Davis type. PMG might have pushed for it, but Sabean sure could have put up a better fight on why it was stupid. We don’t know what went on behind closed doors, but if Sabean doesn’t have enough influence on how the money should be spent, that’s a big problem right there.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
If he acknowledged that he was the one who pushed the trade why won’t you accept it?
Sure McGowan was probably just saving the organization and sacrificing himself, but if he’s on record for saying something I have to take him at his word. Much more reasonable than speculating why didn’t Sabean do this or that.
ok
but PMG is also the reason we got Barry Bonds, who did more good for this franchise than Barry Zito can ever do bad.
Would a Sabean team have EVER made the playoffs without Barry Bonds (assuming he could use his salary on other players)? I seriously doubt it.
Even giving Zito to PMG, the rest of the team is still put together extremely poorly and is grossly overpaid
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
And I love McGowan for it. The point is, don’t ignore the good he’s done just because you don’t like the guy. Kent and Schmidt were pretty integral to those great years as well.
I agree with you, we definitely overpay a good amount of players but every team has dead weight.
not as much as us...
I’m in the process of comparing every team’s spending, and while all teams have dead weight, it’s not looking good for us so far
Sabean has done a lot of good in the past, I’m not throwing it out the window. Problem is, it’s been more than 5 years since he’s actually done much of that good. At some point he has to show he can still produce
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Very cool. This is what I was going to ask-- how your WAR:$ calculations compare across all teams.
Thanks. Very interesting. I look forward to it.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Aug 6, 2009 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
This seems like a pretty telling story of Sabean’s time with the Giants, to me…
by Missing Barry on Aug 5, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Zito's relative problem
With Barry Zito, Sabean has spent 8.74 million per Win Above Replacement on the FA market. More than double what should be expected.
Without Barry Zito, Sabean has spent 8.03 M per Win Above Replacement on the FA market. Once again, more than double what should be expected.
Zito’s the biggest problem yes, but he’s sort of right in line with the general problems the Giants have on spending money.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 5, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Jesus god yes
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
cool analysis
and pretty much in line with what I always thought about sabes.
I did this analysis for the pre-zito years and I got a number that – without bonds – put sabes at squarely average (including all his luckbox trades). I didn’t have WAR or average $/war so I guessitmated.
Do we have war data for 1997-2002? and $$
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Those seemed like legitimate concerns to me...
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 5, 2009 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I disagree on Neal
Neifi, you wrote:
My concern with pretty much all of our non-Posey prospects is that they just strike out way too damn much. They also don’t walk nearly enough to justify their high K rates.
I don’t think that holds for Neal. His K rate of 18% is not at all out of line for a guy slugging .600, with a OBP of .427 and a BB rate of over 10%. He certainly is light years ahead of AnVil, Crawford and Kieschnick.
I think he’s the real deal, and that he’ll be a starting OF for us in 2011, if not before. HIs smooth swing and short stride is very repeatable and looks difficult to mess with – it bodes well for his chances in the bigs. By comparison, Freddy Sanchez currently has a K rate = 16%, BB rate = 6%, while slugging .150 points lower (.448).
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I totally agree with this. In fact, I’ll be so bold as to say that I’d rank Neal above Bumgarner in my Top 10 list. I’m absolutely convinced that, barring injury, he’ll make it to the majors and at least have some kind of success. And although I think MadBum probably will (still not convinced on those off-speed pitches yet), I see his probability as now being just a notch lower than Neal’s.
Yes, I’ve drunk the Neal-Aid! Go ahead, pelt me with rocks and bottles…
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Methinks you may be putting too much weight on Cal League performance...
#3, sure, but I don’t think he’s #2 yet, unless Bumgarner is about to have Tommy John surgery or something. (I’m assuming you have Posey at #1.)
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Lyle’s a true believer — he has Gordon Beckham at #1.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
If liking Gordon is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
LOL
Love the cactus hat
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 6, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I admire that you're willing to go against the status quo
but I don’t think I could ever place Neal above MadBum. That being said, he could turn out better and you could look like a genius
Neal
Well, it’s clearly a risk, since Neal is still only in High A ball. No doubt Dodd will present a challenge next year (assuming the team doesn’t materialize at the Diamond in Richmond), and I may very well look foolish for much of the season.
I just can’t stop thinking about Thomas Neal.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
What is the newest info on Richmond by the way? Are they officially moving there, and if so, when?
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions
The last thing that I read about this on Greg’s Connecticut Defender blog (which was posted about a month ago), was that the Richmond move was about 95% certain. The original buyers couldn’t come up with the dough, but another group had stepped in and seemed to have all their ducks in a row. I think they were just haggling over when and where Richmond would be building a new stadium to replace the old one. Also, the owners of Dodd Stadium were already looking for a New York Penn League A team to move in for the 2010 season.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
They’re building a new stadium in Richmond?
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Richmond had a downtown renovation plan that was going to include a new stadium. Not surprisingly that deal got put on the back burner when the credit markets crunched. It’s in limbo now, and given the poor state of Virginia’s (particularly mid and southern state) economy I wouldn’t expect to see it move out of limbo for a while.
Put it this way, about 13 years ago when I lived in SF one of my best friends worked on the environmental impact assessment for the new 49ers Stadium and I can still remember her coming back from a meeting with the EPA and telling me “the stadium’s a go!”
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Yeah I was just surprised to hear that. I lived in Richmond a while ago, it still hasn’t fully recovered from being flooded out in 2004. As long as the old stadium is usable (it’s not nice by any means), I wouldn’t expect a new one…
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Well the lack of a new stadium is the reason the Braves moved out. Having lost the Braves they wanted to build a new stadium to entice another team in.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Getting their AAA team closer to Atlanta was a factor, as well. Richmond to Atlanta is a very long way…
by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
to clarify my statement
The article that I read did not say that Richmond was in the process of building a new stadium. As was pointed out, the bad economy killed that plan. However, the group that has signed on to move the team to Richmond is trying to forge some official understanding that the powers that be in the local gov will put their full weight behind greasing the skids for an eventual new stadium once the economic cloud lifts. Until then the team would play in the old stadium. The group does have some leverage up until they actually sign the agreements to play in Richmond, because the stadium is empty now. That’s the haggling that I was reeferring to.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I don't think I was down on Neal there...
I did say
Neal has cut his a bit, and walks more than the other guys, so he can get a bit of a pass (also hits for more power than any of the others).
Sorry
I didn’t see that statement at first glance. I’ll also add that I totally agree with you on C. Dominguez and his alarming K rate at S-K. Let’s hope that he can get some good coaching and experience to at least get that below 25% without losing any power. I think he’ll end up at 1B, so his hitting is going to be even more important than it would at 3B. Also, Villalona’s regression after the impressive last 5 weeks at Augusta and first 5 weeks at SJ is very alarming. He’ll definitely have to repeat at SJ next year – thankfully he’ll only be 19 to start out with.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
although, I have my own concerns about Freddy Sanchez sustainability going forward, so that wouldn’t be a good comp for me. But I do think your point is valid, and I think I sort of tried to say that myself. Neal gets a pass with his K rate because he has the power and enough walking ability to make up for it
I see MadBum becoming a similar pitcher to Matt Cain. He won’t be the lights out type that Lincecum is, but I see him posting more than a few All-Star seasons. I’m a little worried that his K/9 is becoming too low to be an effective #1 or even #2. I would be thrilled with him as a #3 though.I hope he can develop more offspeed stuff. Can’t wait for Wheeler to sign and see his development.
I agree that the K rate in AA thus far is cause for some worry.
And I would be thrilled if MadBum turned out like Cain. Dude’s been a remarkably consistent above average innings-eater for three seasons and he’s still only 24!
by RougeGorrila on Aug 4, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Really people should just stop mentioning Lincecum in any comparisons. Everything about his pro career from the tornado destruction of the minors to his potential back to back Cy Youngs within three years in the majors is telling us he’s a once in a generation talent. Comparing any aspect of any prospect’s portfolio to anything about him just doesn’t seem to be enlightening.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I might go so far as say Lincecum is a once in multiple generation type pitcher. He truely could refocus how parts of the league looks at pitchers.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
So far he seems to be refocussing how Giants fans look at their prospects. “he’s already been made 6 starts in the minors — when’s he going to get called up already!”
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I am thinking more along the line of what mechanics and body styles might still work in the MLB. Between Tim and Oswalt those are 2 pretty good examples that a guy without a line backers body and thrive as a MLB pitcher. I would expect a couple franchises (probably the more desperate for pitchers) to start taking more chances with these type of guys because they should not as much competition to get them.
As for your point some of our brethren have always been that way. I remember "talks" about Chili Davis and how he would be totally crappy and worthless because he was no Willy Mays.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
LOL, there was that poster who wondered how Alderson could be any good if he was still in AA after 10 starts.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
One more prospect...
Very fine write-up, Brute. My Compliments…
There is one more prospect you might wish to consider: Matt Graham (as previously, and briefly mentioned by fellow poster Wonderful Terrific Monds).
Graham is 6’4", 225 lbs. of Texas high school heat. As a freshman, he threw well into the 90’s. Back then, he looked like a lock to go in the first round as he became a prep school upper classman. However, he faded a bit last year and this, so he stock dropped quite a bit – the Giants were likely surprised to see he available in Round 6. If they can sign him – they will have to convince him (financially) to forego his commitment to Univ. of No. Carolina – they could have the steal of the entire 2009 Draft. If they do sign him (and with the Alderson trade, I would say his chances of signing with the Giants have improved a bit), I would put him in the top 10 list of Giants pitching prospects – and it a a very good list – right now.
Old dudz4 th' winz
RamonOrtizRamonOrtizRamonOrtiz
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 5, 2009 6:04 AM PDT reply actions
Great Stuff Brute. Thanks.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Quantity vs Quality
Still not impressed with the organizational pitching depth. And last two drafts have yielded few if any top quality talent for starting pitching. Zack Wheeler and Matt Graham need to be signed by August 17th.
Not shallower - just much more bottom-heavy
Assuming we sign Wheeler, who (IMO) would be at least as good of a prospect as T2, then I don’t think our SP is shallower after the 2 trades. Without a doubt it’s much more concentrated in the short-season and rookie leagues than before. I’m excited about the prospects in Salem-Keizer and Scottsdale – their often dominating performances are the main reason these 2 teams have the best records in their respective leagues. We also have a boatload of great relief pitchers throughout all levels of our farm system, which should save us from having to pony up big bucks for our pen in the future.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Good job Brute!
And thank you for sharing your dugout stuff with us, free of charge.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

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