A new plan for Buster Posey in Sept?
by Fla-Giant on Aug 28, 2009 12:47 PM PDT
Email
Print
About 2 weeks ago Baggarly posted on his blog that Buster wouldn't be called up to SF when the rosters are expended in Sept, because he would be playing for Team USA in the World Cup in Europe from Sept 9 - 27. Baggs also reported that Brandon Crawford and other minor league Giants might be on the team too - here's the link to his post:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2009/08/17/postgame-notes-bochys-message-big-night-for-martinez-poseys-european-vacation-etc/#more-1938
However, last night the official Team USA lineup was posted on MiLB.com, and Buster isn't on the team. Believe it or not, the only Giant farm leaguer on the team is our intrepid relief pitcher Geno Espineli. The 2 catchers on the team will be AA prospects Jason Castro of the Astros (formerly of Stanford) and Michael McKenry of the Rockies. Both are good prospects, but not on Buster's level at this time. Here's the link to the list:
I wonder if this change came from the Giants or Team USA? Did Sabean wake up and decide that he was going to need Buster's bat and ability to get on base if we have any chance at the wild-card? Does this mean that we will see Buster in SF next month (I know he's not on the 40 man roster yet)? Does anybody want Buster here in Sept - at the risk of strating his arb clock? Or, was Baggs's source just blowing smoke up his you-know-what, and Buster was never even invited to be on the team?
BTW, I wouldn't expect much from this team, because the pitching is exceedingly pedestrian. Understandably, no team wanted to risk a top pitching prospect for this tournament. If I were Team USA I would have gone after some college stud pitchers that would have been more than happy to go.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
174 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I think Baggs said in the story today that Posey declined the invitation in order to rest for the AFL
Not in the original posting
He must have put it in a subsequent story that I didn’t read.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
He mentioned that yesterday or today.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Top catching prospect Buster Posey will play for the Scottsdale Scorpions in the Arizona Fall League, said Giants vice president Bobby Evans. Posey recently returned to Triple-A Fresno after missing a week with a bruised side he sustained in a home-plate collision.
I had already read that
However, nothing in those 2 sentences would stop Buster from playing in the World Cup. Fresno’s last game is Sept. 7 and they won’t be in the playoffs. The World Cup runs from Sept 9 – 27, and the AFL doesn’t start until Oct. 12 – plenty of time to be ready if he wanted to do it.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Here is the link
Left-hander Geno Espineli was the only member of the Giants organization on USA Baseball’s roster for the World Cup tournament to be held in Europe next month. Double-A infielder Sharlon Schoop will participate for the Netherlands. Catcher Buster Posey declined so he could be rested for the Arizona Fall League.
I think they should put Bengie on the DL and call up Buster
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Who will hit injured home runs off the bench then?
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
SCIENCE
Miller. He has a little bit of learning to do, but he’ll get there.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 28, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I would Loooove to see Buster in Sept just so we could have good hitters on this team
but.. I need to have will power and know waiting until next year is for the better.
If you look up Buster’s page on MILB.com it lists his current team as the Scottsdale Scorpions. I thought that was strange because he is still playing for the Grizz isn’t he?
Arb clocks
So after I got all settled in and believed nostocks and others that September callups DO start the arb clock, I was listening to the ESPN baseball today podcast and they definitively said it didn’t. Now they say a lot of dumb things on that podcast, but the producer chimed in to say he checked with MLB front office on the issue to get the real answer. Very confusing indeed.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
If Posey is going to be up for the entire season next year then the month of service time this year won’t matter. If the Giants are planning the have him start in the minors and call him up in June or something like that then the month of service time could be an issue.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 28, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Correct
If they’re planning to have him start next year on the Major League roster anyway, they should by all means call him up. Indeed it could even be argued that the right move would be to put Bengie on the DL and call him up now so that he’d be eligible for the post-season on the off-chance that they make it in.
If this is the case then the fact that Sabean & Co. have said they aren’t calling Posey up means they are going to extend Molina to bridge the gap next year, which is rather unfortunate. I like Bengie, and he might have a role as a backup, but I’m afraid he won’t accept that. If Posey is slated to be the Opening Day 2010 catcher then by all means call him up now.
What if he hits 500 and makes all the difference in this lineup, vaulting us into the playoffs?
Maybe we should add him now to avoid losing him for the playoffs.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 28, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I would not jump to the conclusion that not calling up Posey means they are going to re-sign Molina. I think it more likely means that the Giants are not planning on Posey being the opening day catcher next year and they think that calling him up this year might hurt his development (if they don’t think he is ready yet) and screw with his service time if they are planning to call him up next June, which I would guess is the plan right now.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 29, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I like him better as a SS anyways. Let Molina catch with Posey and Sandoval backing him up.
Rent can ride the pine and back up the middle in with Uribe. Ishigarko, Sanchez, Posey, Sandoval, Molina for an infield. Shierholtz, Rowand, and Velez in out. Not a bad line up with a versatile bench.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Whaaaaaaaaaatt
"Trust me: If I’m feeling lousy at the plate like that, I’m not just going to walk up there with bases loaded and get a hit because I’m some great clutch hitter." - Mr. F!
comics | art | Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
And what, exactly, makes you think Posey can play SS?
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
That was his position through most of college. Senior year he switched to catcher because they had no one else.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
He only played 1 year of SS in college, first of all. Second of all, being a good MLB SS is much, much different than being a passable one in college. Simply put, nobody has projected him to be a capable MLB quality middle infielder.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Points taken, I just think as athletic as he is the transition wouldn't be that bad.
It seems like SS is a physically less demanding position then catcher. That means he would last longer. This seems important since everyone is so worried about his arb clock, you must want him here awhile…
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
And you’re right, if he was able to play SS, it would probably keep his legs fresher long term. He’s most valuable at C, though (though SS is the second most valuable position), and it’s not like we can count on him staying here when he hits FA, so we might as well get as much value out of his first 6 years as we can (and however many more years he stays around) – and that means playing him at C. Who knows, maybe eventually he pulls a BIggio and we move him to keep the wear and tear down when he gets older, but that’s an issue we can address when we come to it…
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay, so I shouldn’t jump to that conclusion, but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. If a month of service time doesn’t matter because he’s starting Opening Day 2010, then why haven’t they called him up, at least to make him eligible for the playoffs? Molina’s hurt, Sandoval’s hurt, so right now our backup catcher is freaking Garko. Sabean has said that Posey won’t be called up, so I expect Molina back next year.
I’d imagine we’ll offer Bengie arbitration to get the comp picks, he’ll accept it, and then Posey won’t be called up until midseason next year. I think Sabean is insuring himself against he possibility of Molina being a Giant in 2010 by making sure he doesn’t start Posey’s arb clock too early.
That's splendid news...
& changes my September opinions completely. Buster should totally come be in the chase then.
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m assuming the expanded roster means it wouldn’t cost Buster a MiLB option either…?
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 1:46 PM PDT reply actions
It wouldn’t cost an option because he’d be in the majors. Also, I’ll be really sad if we ever have to worry about whether Buster Posey has options left.
However, I’m pretty sure that Roger’s ESPN guys are wrong and it would start his arb clock, which, again, is only relevant if they are NOT planning to have him start next year in the majors.
So what is the exact roster move? In Buster's case, they would simply purchase his contract? How does that not start his clock?
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, first they would have to put him on the 40-man, and then they would purchase his contract. And I’m pretty sure that does start his arb clock, even in September.
nostocksjustbonds actually pulled out the rulebook in minor lines the other day. I’m nearly certain that the arb clock is running on September call-ups.
i would hate to let the arb clock thing get in the way of his development or the good of the team and i am hoping that is why he needs to spend the next 6 weeks “preparing” for the AFL. I love the idea of having him here now mainly becuase he is clearly the best option. I think there is little argument that he is better than Whiteside (or Garko!). Plus a callup now would be a huge shot in the arm in terms of excitement and would not be too dissimilar to what the Rays did last year with Price (except Price was in his first year)…
Who cares if we start his arb clock. If he's all that we should resign him in a few anyway.
Arb clock hype seems like crap. Too many variables to worry about money that Sabean will just waste away on a 300 hitting 4 homerun “gamer” that flood our roster like a virus right now.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 28, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not a mater of whether or not the Giants choose to re-sign him in a few years. If they start his service time early it could lead to him being eligible for arbitration a year early meaning that his 4th year as a MLB player could end up costing them several million dollars rather than $400,000. Take a look at the money Lincecum gets this offseason if a want a real world example of how “arb clock hype” is not crap.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 29, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Please see below. There is more to this than just $. Pride is rampant.
Payers perform well and should be rewarded, just like in real life workplaces. Please see my explanations to marcello below.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s what I thought…back to my pre-scheduled “hmmm, if we still at Ronny Paulino, we’d have a perfect transition in place for the beginning of next year” comment.
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 2:05 PM PDT reply actions
You don’t think that we could pick up Ronnie Paulino, or a similar FA for a bucket of balls or a small amount of $$ in the offseason? It’s not like he’s starting full time for the Marlins.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Sure, but conceivably Paulino could have integrated with our staff this year, thus no learning curve. Plus, he’s got 7 hrs in ~180 abs, which isn’t amazing but much more helpful than we’ve gotten out of ours. He might’ve worked well next year to bridge to Posey. Not saying its my preference, but I like playing with retro-foresight.
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
good points
Although I think that his offensive numbers and especially his power numbers would be noticeably lower playing at AT&T vs. Florida.
Which reminds me, whatever became of the pitcher we got from the Marlins? Has he even pitched 1 inning for us in the minors this year? Let’s hope that he heals good and becomes a surprise prospect next year.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Donde esta Hector Correa?
www.hectorcorrea.com is unfortunately a software developer in KS city. Damn.
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Buster would be our 2nd best offensive player right now
That’s sad and pathetic, but no way Sabean/Bochy call up a rookie when there’s a gritty veteran around.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
two separate issues
Let’s say you are Neukom. You are looking at Buster Posey and think “boy it’d sure be great to have him for 7 years instead of 6 before he hits Joe Mauer pay day, and look at how Wieters have hit since his got called up, that would have sucked if Posey put up those numbers and it counted towards my 6 years of team control.”
If the decision has already been made to call up Posey after the super 2 deadline next year, then no, calling him up in Sept is the wrong thing to do.
However, if the decision is “Buster Posey is our starting catcher for 2010, and we are going all out for it next year with a rookie catcher, not going to slow play this Posey thing”, then calling him up this year is the right thing to do since it won’t affect what year he is arbitration eligible or team control.
what about the issue that we are ostensibly in a playoff race and we have no catchers who are able to walk and also hit better than 229/256/315. Oh and Posey has (in a limited sample) already shown he is a well-above average hitter at AAA. I also don’t see how his being here playing every day hurts him.
Think of it this way
If we call up Posey this year and Posey gets a 4th arbitration year (a la timmy), he will likely get 5-6 million in that arbitration year (if he is the savior that we’re hoping he will be).
That’s the equivalent of paying a player 6 Million dollars to play part time for the Giants for 1 month. If the board is Ok with this acquisition, by all means go for it, but I believe the impact on the pennant race for the Giants will not be major enough to justify spending that much cash.
i hear you, but that is $6M for a month 6 years from now. As far as I can tell, they are paying Dave Roberts $6.5M for 0 months. I would think that the risk of paying him is outweighed by the fact that he actually helps the team in a year in which they really need the help. A callup also provides a buzz and undoubtedly boosts ticket sales. I’m just saying the only reason I can justify not calling him up now is if it will hurt him.
I agree with you, see my post below about only attending games if Posey is called up.
Ultimately, a CEO is responsible to run his company the right way. From a business standpoint, calling up Posey is not the right business move. It would feel great for a month, and we’d be like “boy, we shouldn’t have done that” for 6 years.
Posey is a Chipper jones type. His learning curve will be sharp.
I see moving him to SS and saving his body, picking up a catcher through FA or giving Slolina another year. Between Sandoval and Posey you have backups(one more than we started the year with) that play daily. Let Rent a bat ride some pine meat, and see what shows up from the farm or FA/trades for a balanced outfielder. No one crazy, just not the current no HR, no defense, whatever your drawback is, to to plug into a corner spot. Garkikawa, Sanchez, Posey, Sandoval, Molina Rowand, Shierholtz, player to be named(Neal?) in corner. Not terrible with alot of upside.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 28, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Posey isn’t a SS. He’s a C. His value is in the fact that he’s a C.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
I like the way jctGamer puts it.
Plus, the guy you get now for $6MM later is a stone cold rookie. Some of those guys come on and rake, but the vast majority do not.
Don’t call up Buster This year’s Giants plain aren’t good enough.
"The questions are so stupid. I don't believe in rivalries. I don't believe in curses. Wake up the damn Bambino, maybe I'll drill him in the ass."
- Pedro Martinez, asked about the Curse of the Bambino
If calling up Buster is wrong, I don’t want to be right
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
This is the same thinking that brought us to the point we’re at with Timmy this coming offseason. It’s bad business and dumb for the team long term.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
how can you say that? Do you think they regret how Timmy developed? The money it cost is a rounding error and as I said above is about what they are paying Dave Roberts to be a commentator on NESN. Bad business is not giving the team the best chance it has to win now. Right now they do not have a major league catcher.
I regret having Timmy be a super 2. If they had waited 4 more starts, Timmy would not have been a super 2. I’d take those 4 starts in 2007 and trade it for 10 million dollars next year.
agree, but it worked out ok for everyone…. i would rather the FO take risks like these rather than signing Dave Roberts or Aaron Rowand to long-term deals.
This isn’t a risk, it’s just dumb. Posey wouldn’t be playing every day if he was up, I doubt he’d be playing half the games. He really isn’t going to provide that much value over Molina over one month.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
And for all the anger with Bengie, of which I have been a part of, he’s still been about a league average player this year.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Putting my pragmatist pants on...
I can see how a below- league average performance by Posey during the chase leading to Sabes holding him off even longer next year.
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
But Benjie can’t play right now and who knows how long he will be out. His tone in the most recent interviews I read does not reflect much optimism that he is going to be wearing catcher’s gear anytime soon. I would not be shocked if he ends up on the DL. We have one AA-level catcher and Ryan Garko as his backup heading into the biggest series of the year and a tough roadie…
The money it cost is a rounding error and as I said above is about what they are paying Dave Roberts to be a commentator on NESN
So because we made a huge mistake on Dave Roberts we should now make poor business decisions on everyone? Really? How does this make any sense? Starting an arbitration clock too early will cost the team a lot of money – simply put, it’s a bad decision.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
What?
is about what they are paying Dave Roberts to be a commentator on NESN.
Is that an argument that the Giants should now forever more be cavalier about six million dollars because they biffed it once?
"The questions are so stupid. I don't believe in rivalries. I don't believe in curses. Wake up the damn Bambino, maybe I'll drill him in the ass."
- Pedro Martinez, asked about the Curse of the Bambino
That doesn’t change the question.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
And he has made them millions in the mean time. Hell, he's changed the franchise from Bonds, Bonds, Bonds
to a product that is watchable in it’s own right. Never regret the Choco Taco monster that is Timmy.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 28, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
And you missed the point horribly.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
How so?
Paying Timmy what he’s worth now is really a reward for his performance. This franchise has been hamstrung by badly negotiated contracts for underperforming vets. Bringing guys up early has it’s risks, but with Tim you’ve got something special. It’s the same with Posey. The future is now and damn conventional thinking of Arb clocks. The Phils and Brewers take this same approach with their position players and they may spend a little more sooner or lose someone through FA, but in general the homegrown players respect that and stick around. I’ll take my chances with the young guys, they’ll still be cheaper and hopefully more productive then some of these vets that have been overcoveted for so long. Roberts, Rowand, Zito, Renteria, Winn, are all sucking a large share of the money for spotty results or none. Benitez, Alfonso, and so many more have cost untold millions and clogged up spots that could have been used for better development. Low budget teams that do well like the A’s, Marlins and Twins aren’t just good at drafting, they give on the job experience to guys that might get passed over in other franchises. They can’t afford to keep these players because of their budget. We can if we don’t blow our load on these vets. Slolina has been average at best.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Paying Timmy what he’s worth now is really a reward for his performance…The future is now and damn conventional thinking of Arb clocks.
You may not care about the business side of the game, but it’s important for a franchise to be aware of it and use it to their advantage.
The Phils and Brewers take this same approach with their position players and they may spend a little more sooner or lose someone through FA, but in general the homegrown players respect that and stick around.
You mean the same Brewers that just demoted J.J. Hardy to manipulate his service time?
You seem to be missing the point. If we had waited a few more weeks to bring Timmy up, we’d have him for next season at $10-15 million less. That would be huge. Instead, we brought him up in a season that was lost from day 1 and now we’re going to have to pay for it in a season we will be pushing hard for the playoffs. People always dismiss the service time issue for some crazy reason. Now, we have a very real example of how costly it is.
I have no problem bringing up the kids and playing them, as long as it makes sense. In this case, I don’t think it makes sense. Posey won’t significantly increase our chances this season, there just isn’t enough time and he only has ~140 PA’s in the high minors. It’s very likely he could be horrible for a few weeks or more as he adjusts.
Also, manipulating service time has nothing to do with signing crappy vets to large contracts.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
That kind of thinking is a slap in the face to a player.
Tim is a legitimate Ace. the Phils did it with Cole Hamels, locking him up while he was still in his arb years. We did it with Lowry and got him cheaper than if his clock had been watched and he made it toFA. Same with Timmy or Posey. If a player is all that then don’t shy away from spending the money on him. The results show at the gate, in the shops , and in the marketing. Lincecum pitches, more people come and spend money. Give it to the player. I run a small business and know what it costs to have someone leave and having to retrain another one. It actually saves me money by having proficient people who know what they are doing. I pay better for that. I don’t hire people who have alot of experience because they have bad habits to break and they will usually not do things how I want to see them done. If it costs me more to keep someone around, it is actually cheaper then bringing in someone with experience who may not perform as I prefer. The Brewers did this with Braun, and it caused Fielder to become upset. Both players deserved the money and got it and suddenly fielder is quietly performing again. Invaluable to team unity.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Lincecum is the one who has stated he doesn’t want a long term contract and would rather go to arbitration or sign year to year. If he wants to play the game that way then the Giants should have used it to their advantage and gotten that extra year of Timmy for cheap. If you really are small business owner, and would turn down the chance to get the same production for 10-15X less cost, then I would also like to talk to you about piece of oceanfront property I own.
I can't fight it.
I’m loyal. I spend alot of money on my employees when they make me shine, they want to do better, and I do better in the long run. If Timmy were offered a fair contract, he would probably take it. If this team is going to keep throwing money at vets, why worry about throwing it to guys who come up from our own cupboard. Perhaps they prolong Tim’s debut a few more starts. Maybe he comes up and dominates. Maybe the team bus crashes and maims him while in the minors. No one has a crystal ball. They knew Tim was gonna be good but no one thought he would be this good. So the G’s gambled and lost. With the amount of revenue he brings in I think it will cover the extra 10 mill or whatever. I pay good money to see the best players we have. Let’s see them.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
If this team is going to keep throwing money at vets, why worry about throwing it to guys who come up from our own cupboard.
That’s simply a bad mentality. We should aspire to spend money wisely. Giving an employee more money than you have to for no reason is just not a good business decision. It’s also not like running your small business – the system has been set up the way it is by MLB and the players association, those are the rules you play by, and players understand that. They do what they can to get as much money as possible, of course, but there’s not going to be any blame going to the Giants for playing by the rules and not paying Timmy until the rules require them to do so. That’s just how the business of baseball works.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed.
All though I do believe loyalty between employees and employers has been lost over the last 50 years. I agree money should be spent wisely, but you can’t stop a players growth because of a clock.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Non sports related bitter rant:
Loyalty between employees and employers has been lost because every time a corporation has to choose between loyalty to its employees and profit, profit wins (is legally and economically required to win in fact). Therefore, if an employee is truly loyal to their employer, they are a chump.
Obviously, in smaller organization, truly two-way loyalty becomes possible, so your specific situation may not apply.
This doesn’t stop every large corporation I’ve ever worked for from demanding loyalty and sacrifice from their employees…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 30, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
You’re forgetting about the tens-of-thousands of corps and businesses that are privately-owned or non-profit. They have no fiduciary responsibilty to make profit the #1 goal. All-in-all, I’d much rather make a living based on my smarts and work-ethic than be stuck in a corrupt union that is slowly but surely bleeding the business dry.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
You know you can watch his arb clock and lock him up through his FA too, right?
If a player is all that then don’t shy away from spending the money on him. The results show at the gate, in the shops , and in the marketing.
No they don’t, you just made that up. And the way you run your business, whatever it is, has little to do with how an MLB team is run. The arbitration rules are in place and the players understand that. The large majority of them understand how it works and aren’t disgruntled by it.
The Brewers did this with Braun, and it caused Fielder to become upset. Both players deserved the money and got it and suddenly fielder is quietly performing again. Invaluable to team unity.
Again, you’re just making stuff up. You have no evidence that Fielder’s struggles last year had anything to do with his contract situation.
This is a waste of time. If you don’t think the team saving money is good, I don’t know what to tell you, you’re just wrong.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Production is everything.
People want to see good players. You field a crappy team, no one goes to see them. The A’s attendance is down this year and it’s not just the economy. Put a poor product out and you lose all loyalty from the customer and the employee. As a business owner, I have to spend money to make it. If I half ass it or have crappy dissatisfied employees, no matter how little or much I save is going to attract more business.
As for Fielder, look it up. He came right out and said he was upset about his contract. He didn’t want Arb, he wanted security, as most people want in their jobs. Maybe I’m just thinking a little more Dan Rooney and a little less Jeffery Loria. That you are dealing with people, not a bottom line. Saving money isn’t always the wisest thing when it comes to employee satisfaction. Retention is the key. In these days of out sourcing, this is lost on people.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
As for Fielder, look it up. He came right out and said he was upset about his contract.
He was upset about his contract so he played like shit to get more money? Doesn’t make sense to me. And again, your business has nothing to do with the Giants business. They aren’t relatable.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Players are people with feelings and insecurities.
If someone is not happy they will make mental mistakes. Divorces, deaths and yes, even money , will mess with someones mental state…even in baseball.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 30, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Haven't you heard?
“There’s no crying in baseball!”
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I disagree slightly with this.
Even if they were determined to bring him up after, say, late May or something to avoid the Super 2 business, what if the Giants sweep this weekend? Suddenly they’re tied for the wild card lead. At that point (especially if Bengie still can’t go) you could go ahead and call up Buster, still planning to avoid Super 2 status, but now they just have to wait until late June to call him up next year. The issue is, in essence, are you willing to trade a month of service time next year for one this year? Three games back, I, personally, would not be willing. One game back? Sorry Bocock.
Why don’t we burn that bridge when we get to it… a sweep is very unlikely.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 28, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
What are the chances Posey actually makes any meaningful impact on the Giants season, if we bring him up, though?
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
It depends on Bengie, really. I don’t think the difference between Bengie and Posey is enough to make any difference (it might even tilt in Bengie’s favor at this point). But if Bengie cannot go and it’s the difference between Posey and Whiteside, it might be as much as half a dozen runs. That’s not much, but it might matter.
Maybe, but when you’re working with such a small sample size, even assuming Posey’s true talent level is far above Whiteside’s, the probability of him making a significant impact like that is pretty small.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I like one of the pitchers on the US team: Padres LHP Cory Luebke. He was very good for the first half of the Cal League season and then was promoted to the Texas League. Seems to be doing well there too. Luebke was San Diego’s first round pick in 07 and looks to be on the fast track.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 28, 2009 2:17 PM PDT reply actions
According to John Shea...
Buster is “not in the Giants’ September plans for now”
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
My favorite part of that story:
Infielder Rich Aurilia was eligible to come off the disabled list, but manager Bruce Bochy said, “We just don’t have a move to make right now.” Bochy said last week Aurilia would be activated Sept. 1.
“I don’t make those decisions,” Aurilia said.
“I’m healthy, and I’m ready to play. I think I’ve been the healthiest guy on the team most of the year.”
I think what Aurilia really meant to say was, “I think I’ve been the healthiest shittiest guy on the team most of the year.”
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 28, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I got a chuckle out of the healthiest part.
Seriously though, I’m not in this thing right now. The only way I’ll go to ball games in September is if they call up Posey. I just can’t take being left at the altar one more time by this Giants team. At least with Posey, I get to see the future.
"I don’t make those decisions," Aurilia said.
Actually Richie, by putting up a .220/.267/.294 line, you kinda do
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 28, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Does that mean the bromance between Boch and Richie is now officially over? I guess we won’t know for sure until we see how Boch utilizes him after Sept. 1.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
“Pinch hitting for the Giants, number 35, Rich Aurilia!!!!!!”
First pitch: grounder to short, to second for one, to first….double play.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
You're such an optimist!
I’m imagining all the times that Boch will start him in Sept.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Buster should be playing in September. If we have a productive series this weekend, those plans to not add him to the September roster (and 40 man) could change pretty quick.
& take back-back-back-up innings from Garko? That’s cold, man. Ice cold.
by sanfranfreakshow on Aug 28, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I vote
We call him up, give him one at-bat, and then either sign him to a multi-billion dollar long term deal or DFA him depending on how he does.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
by GrahamCrakalaka on Aug 28, 2009 3:26 PM PDT reply actions
People, please. Even with Buster, this is not an offense that will be winning a lot of playoff games (in the unlikely event of a playoff berth).
Despite the fact that this team has waaaay outperformed all expectations, to call Buster up in a playoff tizzy would be premature matriculation (I’m sure Goofus could come up with a better punch line than that, but hey).
It may be that I’m subconsciously protecting myself from disappointment, but I fail to see this team as a legitimate World Series contender. In the absence of a realistic WS possibility, I think messing with players’ development schedules is a mistake.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 28, 2009 5:45 PM PDT reply actions
I think what the fans want see Posey because they want to tell the front office......
If you are telling me we’re in this thing, and you want me to believe that we’re in this thing, then make to moves to show me that you think we’re in this thing. Until then, don’t tell me we’re in this thing.
if it means fucking with Posey’s development, let’s just stop being in this thing
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 28, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
In this thing is a marketing phrase… and while technically true, not well grounded in reality (IMHO). If the front office had showed they were in fact committed to the youth movement (my main reason for being slightly negative on the Garkez trades is that it makes it clear they aren’t) seeing Buster in September would be a treat, assuming it isn’t messing with his development. I think you need to catch 150 – 200 games of professional ball before being thrown into the catcher position in the MLB, though. I wouldn’t pencil him in on opening day, but I do think Buster will be coming up sometime next year (excited about it too).
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 28, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing about "We're in this thing" is that it's working
I’ve seen signs people bought to the ball park that said “We’re in this!!”. I’m sure some of you saw it on TV.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
Once you get to the playoffs, it’s a big crapshoot. Every team in the playoffs is a WS contender.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Technically true. Go bet your rent money on it. I certainly wouldn’t bet the development schedule for the next couple of years on it… I’d be thrilled to see it, but I don’t think I will.
Realistically, the Giants aren’t going to beat the Phillies, then the Dodgers and then the Yankees (or Angels or insert any one of the several clearly superior AL teams here) all in a row. This offense is too epically weak. With even an average offense that changes, but this offense would have to improve drastically to approach even mediocrity.
I think if your serious about winning championships, you need to have a plan for sustained success over a period of years and not pin your hopes on one crapshoot.
To underline how sure I am the Giants will not be in the World Series, I will be in Italy from Oct 16th through Nov 1st. I made those plans in February and even though this team has way outperformed expectations, I’m not planning on listening to the Giants over the internet while lounging about in Tuscany. Again, I would be happy to be wrong (or pissed off to be so far away while a miracle is occurring).
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 29, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
i got married on sept 28, 2002 and as the season wore down, i thought long and hard about skipping it. i decided against it and remain happily married. We were in the south of France at a small hotel for the divisional round and i followed the games by watching the ticker at the bottom of the SkySports channel. We went to Paris for the last 4 days and that coincided with the games 1 and 2 in St. Louis. Luckily, they were on ESPN International or whatever it is called and i watched them both from a Presidential Suite on my honeymoon. The games started at about 2am. We got back in time for me to be in my seat in section 139 (the good old days) for game 3. I saw the rest of that series and went to games 1 and 2 of the WS in Anaheim to make up for the games i missed. Moral of the story: there is none, but don’t be surprised to find yourself in a bar in Italy in late October…
I think you should read up on studies on who wins the World Series. The Giants chances are not good, but they’re not significantly worse than any other team’s chances (and you could make the argument that they have as good of a chance as any other team in baseball). What you have to realize is the effect sample size has on the playoffs – in such a short amount of games the better team wins is barely more than 50%. The Giants certainly have a reasonable chance to beat those teams.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
“in such a short amount of games the better team wins is barely more than 50%”
Meant the chance the better team wins is barely more than 50%.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not just that it is BUSTER POSEY
It’s the case that the Giants starting Catcher is Eli Whiteside and his backup is Garko. This is when you call up your AAA catcher if he happens to be worth a darn. This isn’t replacement over Molina its over Eli Grandslam.
Unless Pablo is feeling fit enough to catch. Then they should call up Frandsen to cover second and move Uribe to 3rd.. Rohlinger clearly doesn’t have “it”.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
Your so right. 2 games and he hasn't done jack. We should bring in Aurilia or some other gamer instead.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 28, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Speaking of jack… who wants to bet we see JACKS get called up when rosters expand?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 29, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I doubt it
They’d have to clear up a spot on the 40 man for that, and there’s already a waiting list for guys that we’d like to call up that aren’t on the 40 man. I’d bet my bottom dollar that Holm is the 3rd catcher called up Tuesday, since he’s already on the 40 man. If Bengie is healed by then, then they’ll wait until Fresno’s season is over on the 8th before they call him up.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Holm is not on the 40-man roster. He was DFA’d earlier this season, but cleared waivers and was sent back to Fresno.
If they’re going to go to the trouble to clear a roster spot to add a catcher, it should be Posey (if the Giants win at least one of these next two games).
In any case, I don’t know that space on the 40-man is a particularly big issue. Of the players on the 60-day DL, only Johnson is at all likely to be re-activated, and Bocock, :(owski, and Jesse English (not to mention Merkin) could all be removed from the 40-man without any particular regret if there’s someone they want to add.
Bring up Gillespie, Anvil, Posey, and MadBum!
Screw the Arb clock. Let’s spend Bowties money!
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, if they’re worried about Posey’s arb clock but they still want to bring him up, they can just wait another month before calling him up next season. I know you’re joking about the other guys, but they could do the same thing with Bumgarner, who like Posey will probably be up next year but won’t start the season in the majors. My guess is, however, that the org likely thinks he’s thrown enough innings this year already.
that is exactly right. The arb clock is based on total MLS so if he is a bust this fall and they did not plan to start him next Spring anyway, they can just hold him back until July or so before calling him up and still avoid super 2. If he is going to start next April anyway, they should call him up now as it won’t matter. If he is great this fall and that encourages them to start him next Spring, then that seems like a problem they would want to have especially if it is resulting in wins. I maintain that there is little risk to calling him up now. His clock starts, but it stops the minute he goes back down….
Lifetime giants fan. Hardly a troll because you don't agree.
It was a joke, although I would like to see Posey up. Thanks for lookin out for Bow ties money though…
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
to say “screw the arb clock. Let’s spend Bowties money!” is all about baiting the other posters to explain to you how the arbitration process works and how the economics affects decisions of the team. if you already know this but chose to post that anyway, it is trolling.
I understand it, I just think it's stupid to always worry about the owners money.
They helped make this mess by throwing huge amounts of money at players. if they can’t afford it they wouldn’t do it. i think these guys are thinking on a different level then you and I. I just wish crap like this wasn’t always about money.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Absolutely.
But it’s not everything. If it was Lincecum wouldn’t be in this situation. Who knows why they brought him up when they did. Probably because life without Barry was pretty bleak looking, at the gates I’m sure. Bring the guy up with a little Buzz, sell more tix.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Where’s all the fat?
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Aug 29, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I have to say, he looks good in the orange and black.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 29, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
I excite
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Check out his grip on the ball
Looks like a 4-seam fastball. When’s he going to toe the rubber?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
If I’ve learned anything from Tim Lincecum, it’s that 4-seam fastballs are for losers. 2-seamer all the way, baby.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2009 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I was just looking at that.
And it looks like a circle change to me. Why the hell is he holding the ball like that?
Know your grips
That’s the correct grip for a fastball. A circle change, and every other change, is held with the ball all the way back in the palm of the hand. The last 3 fingers extend around the ball, and the thumb and index finger form a circle on the side of the ball. That way the pitcher can use the same motion and release point as the fastball, but it comes out of the back of the hand with very little backward spin – thus making it a changeup.
BTW, Posey was a very decent relief pitcher ar FSU. He “toed the rubber” for more than a few nontrivial innings his first 2 years. He had a fastball in the mid-90s, and would have been the closer on the team if he wasn’t so valuable behind the plate, in the field, and at the bat.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Hmm, to say that I am not an expert on pitching grips would be the understatement of the year. But if you look here, some of the guys seem to palm the ball as you’re describing, but some, like Gagne, don’t, and it looks more like the picture of Buster. But I think my big confusion was that I looked at the picture quickly and you can’t see one of his fingers (I think middle), making it look almost like a split-finger grip or something. (I thought he had three fingers on the side of the ball, but I see now that he does not.)
After tonight’s game, the situation is a lot more clear: Posey needs to be on the team. Tomorrow, if possible.
The Giants are a game out of a playoff spot. Posey has a nontrivial chance of helping them win an extra game or two. Case closed.
Read above for financial ramifications. Others are more concerned with payroll than playroll.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions
This is an example of trolling
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
You sound sullen.
I know we haven’t won a WS in over 50 years, but you are kinda acting like someone who didn’t get to go to prom. As for trolling, I just happen to view the situation differently. You have a right to disagree, but you really seem narrow minded on this. It’s your way or no way. If you are content to have posey in AAA right now then that’s your right. Me, I’d like to end this WS drought, and if it costs more money then so be it. The Yanks and Sox spend more and have more to show for it. I will take a shot at the WS over some trepid amount of $ any day of the week. That’s what #‘s really count in baseball. So you have a point, it is a little different from my business. In baseball, no one really looks back at players salaries or club payrolls 50 years down the line. But they will look to see who won. If you wouldn’t trade that then i think you might just be the one who doesn’t understand.
by MoreroidsforZito on Aug 29, 2009 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Posey doesn’t end the world series drought by having 30 at bats in September. Paying 6 million and possibly a year of Posey’s service time to improve our chances at the playoffs by 1% doesn’t make much sense. You could take the “it’s not my money, spend 50 million to get the extra 1%” view if you want to, but you’re awfully alone in this view. Ultimately you do not sound like somebody that will change his mind, so I’m going to stop discussing this with you.
Correct.
This has been my position all along. If the team were out of it come September 1, don’t call him up. However, it is apparent that a) the team is not out of it (despite all efforts to the contrary) and b) another good hitter in the lineup or off the bench would improve the team. Really I think they oughta consider putting Bengie on the DL so they can have Posey available for tomorrow and the postseason roster (/optimism). If he’s good for a half win or so vs. Whiteside, don’t you have to do it when you’re only one game out? I mean, you can always call him up July 1 next year instead of June 1 if you’re that worried about the money.
I agree that it makes sense to call him up on Tuesday
Primarily because we only have 2 catchers (not countng Pablito) and 1 of those is currently a gimp. Here’s something else that needs to be considered. Normally, a team can’t include a player on their postseason roster that wasn’t on the 25 man before Sept. 1st. But, if there’s an injury to somebody on the 25 man roster, then you can bring in a new guy on the playoff roster. If we do make the playoffs, it’s still possible for Buster to be on the roster evne if he comes up in Sept.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
If he’s good for a half win or so vs. Whiteside
That’s not a very likely possibility. It’s probably almost as likely that Whiteside will be worth half a win more than Posey.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, I was figuring Whiteside is basically replacement-level, and Posey would be 2-3 WAR, so over a fifth of a season, roughly half a win. Now, I’ve never seen Posey play and reports on his defense are mixed, so maybe Posey would give away on defense much of what he contributes offensively. And obviously we have no idea how quickly he can adjust to major league pitching. So, sure, maybe Posey would be worse than Whiteside, but I don’t think that’s the right way to bet.
My point is based on sample size issues. I think you might be overestimating Posey at this point, but I do agree that he’s probably better than Whiteside. The thing is, over the course of a small time period like a month, the actual probability of Posey significantly outproducing Whitesize is fairly small, and there’s even a distinct possibility of Whiteside significantly outproducing Posey. Even if he’s a replacement level player over the course of the year, there’s still a fairly high chance he plays above that for a month.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
That’s quite right, of course. But this argument is vulnerable to a reductio ad absurdum: by this logic, you would never try to upgrade any position down the stretch, because the worse player might play better over such a short time period.
And yes, I may well be overestimating Posey, although I hope not. I just checked and Bengie has been 2.3 WAR this year. Hopefully Buster will be that “good,” at least. Admittedly, though, he might not be right away, which is the immediate issue the org has to consider.
Yeah
The adjustment period is what I’m most worried about. I have no doubts Posey will be a great player in the majors, it’s just that he was in High A a month and a half ago. It took him a couple of weeks to adjust to AAA, which is impressive considering the jump, but I wonder how well/quickly he’d adjust to another jump.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
“by this logic, you would never try to upgrade any position down the stretch, because the worse player might play better over such a short time period.”
Well, that’s not entirely true. Basically, you should only try to upgrade if the combination of how long they’re going to be on the team and the talent disparity is enough to be worth whatever you give up. Usually “down the stretch” acquisitions come in at the end of July, so you get two months worth of production out of them, which is quite a bit more than we’re talking about in this situation.
In regards to Posey, it basically comes down to is the extra $$ we’d have to spend on him (assuming this causes him to be Super Two instead of not) worth the potential upgrade? Given how much uncertainty there is around Posey given the fact that he’s a prospect with 141 PA’s above single-A ball, it looks like a pretty hard case to make that it’s worthwhile to bring Posey up.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
By the way, what numbers are you using that have Bengie at 2.3 WAR? Fangraphs has him at 1.4 WAR so far this year.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting, it looks to me like they set the replacement level bar quite a bit lower than Fangraphs does. Everything I’ve seen on the subject has suggested a team of replacement level players would win ~44 games in a season, whereas the bar baseball prospectus uses claims they’d win 20-25 games in a season.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe Molina won't be back AND Posey won't be the 2010 Opening Day catcher
Don’t forget what the Baltimore Orioles did with Matt Wieters. They signed Greg Zaun to catch for the first couple of months while they waited… then in late May they called up Wieters. They even told Zaun about this plan.
We don’t even need Greg Zaun… Panda can catch for the first month or two while we wait for the clock to pass midnight and then call up Posey.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on McCovey Chronicles
Related FanShots on McCovey Chronicles
![From SFist: Buster Posey's Summer Vacation
Note the pile of dead Marlins.
At the Q Restaurant in the Richmond:
George [the artist] tells SFist: "I am currently at work with the fine folks at Q Restaurant and Wine Bar, who have allowed me over the past few months to make use of their largest wall for themed murals. This month, with our beloved Buster Posey sent. . .to the DL. . .I felt it appropriate to send him some well wishes from all his fans at the eatery."](http://cdn1.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/202096/busterart_2_small.jpg)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
