Verducci on "retaliation"

I understand that this is how it has always been, but there is something pathetic about feeling the need to retaliate against an accidental bean ball. Especially when you wait until there are two outs in the seventh inning to do it. Real tough, Santana.

7 months ago Useful_Idiot 14 comments 0 recs |

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I’ve never been a huge fan of relatiation, anyway. There are few things in baseball that piss me off more than when a team hits a batter in retaliation, who then causes more runs to score, possibly losing the game. I don’t think it’s gotten to the point where hitters can’t feel safe in the box, so that reasoning of “protecting your teammate” is a little strange for me.

VOTE SANDOVAL
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Aug 18, 2009 10:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

If hitters didn’t want HBP they wouldn’t crowd the plate!

Also, am I the only one (other than the Umpire) who thinks that Molina HBP was accidental?

I R 5

by say hey nation on Aug 18, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was my first thought...

…and I like that the umpire has some leeway there and doesn’t have to knee-jerk toss a pitcher. You should never get thrown out for bouncing a 70 MPH curveball off of a hitter’s toe, for example.

After watching the replay and thinking more about it, I’m leaning slightly towards “intentional” now, but I still have no idea. If you accept the shaky logic of retribution, Santana missing Sandoval and then giving up a home run to him probably didn’t feel like much like “getting even.” So, now he hasn’t got even, plus he’s pissed at the homer and that the game is slipping away. We’ve certainly established motive, your honor. And for better or for worse, a pitcher is usually given less leeway immediately after being warned; it’s not a good time to go accidentally hitting a guy with a fastball. I’ve certainly seen pitchers tossed with less circumstantial evidence than this.

by pantalones on Aug 18, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Retaliation is Bullshit

And anybody who apologizes for it is spewing bullshit.

I agree with Verducci and I think his vitriol for this behavior is warranted, but I would take it one step further. He’s just saying “don’t retaliate when the first HBP was obviously accidental.” I don’t think you should retaliate at all. You don’t have to be an asshole just because you have one shoved in your face. You don’t have to put somebody’s health at risk just because some other dick is a fat douche. You don’t have to put runners on base just because you want to stand up for some ridiculous, antiquated, gladitorial code of misconduct.

Screw that. Retaliation is a true black mark on the game, and I’m pretty steadfast in that opinion.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Aug 18, 2009 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well put

Well, actually that’s not true. It was a little crude, what with the dicks and douches and assholes shoved in my face. But I agree 100%.

by pantalones on Aug 18, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

So what you’re saying is that I should have been more crude. Duly noted.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Aug 18, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

For a pair of pants, you’re awfully squeamish around dicks and assholes.

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by Bhaakon on Aug 18, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, although I’ve had trouble finding others who agree, and I rarely bring it up anymore. And even if you are SO ANGRY that you have to retaliate, there are other ways that don’t involve putting people on base. Most situations aren’t that dangerous (maybe vizquel – mesa was one), we don’t need to go out and “protect our teammates”.

VOTE SANDOVAL
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Aug 18, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t mind retaliation, but I do agree with Verducci that it’s out of hand and really needs to be drastically cut back on. Johan should have been tossed for hitting Molina right after a warning. Pitchers who are dumb enough to state their intentions to the media should be suspended, or at worse fined. Guillen’s 2 for 1 stuff is ridiculous, though in theory deterrence isn’t such a bad idea, it could lead to less beanings altogether. Retaliation after clearly unintional beanings is ridiculous.

by Missing Barry on Aug 18, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Completely agreed

In a game in 2001, Roy Keane (Irish soccer player who played for Manchester United) made a blatant foul on Alf-Inge Haland, with whom he had a known dispute. A year later, in his autobiography, Keane mentioned that he intentionally tried to hurt Haland. He was immediately suspended for 5 games and fined £150,000 by the Football Association.

In 2002, José Mesa announced “If I face him [Omar Vizquel] 10 more times, I’ll hit him 10 times. I want to kill him.” He then lived up to his promise and hit Vizquel the next two times he faced him. MLB’s punishment: nothing. In fact, Mesa wasn’t even ejected from either game.

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by Cookyman on Aug 18, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes and yes. Couldn’t have put it better myself. I think retaliation is juvenile, and every justification I’ve ever heard is weaker than church social lemonade.

by TheLetter2 on Aug 19, 2009 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

IMO, the best retaliation is winning the game. Or if you need some sort of personal retaliation, King the side, or something like that.

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by Viliphied on Aug 18, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Or launching a deep HR two pitches after getting thrown at

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by Useful_Idiot on Aug 18, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, but...

…just for perspective: I was at the game, and I would say there were at least 35,000 who would disagree. Again, I’m not in favor of retaliation in most cases (unless there was clearly intent behind the beanball that started things), but let me just play devil’s advocate for a moment. Let’s consider the context:
1) The Mets were at home, meaning that Santana probably felt some added pressure to stoop to this nonsensical “retaliation” tradition;
2) The Mets have had a horrible season, marked by an almost comical rash of injuries and disappointments;
3) The one guy who has stood fast against this torrent of injuries and played his heart out, every single game (and who just happens to be the face of the franchise), got hit in the head and nearly critically injured. Not sure how it all looked on TV, but the place went absolutely silent while Wright lay motionless on the ground for 90 seconds or so.

Objectively, I think it was wrong that Santana threw at Sandoval, although I appreciate that he missed him (intentionally?) and tried to send a message without actually endangering anyone. But given all the particulars of the situation, I can understand why he did it; and if the roles had been reversed, I think there might be some around here who would choose to reconsider their stances.

Also, I was absolutely dumbfounded that Santana wasn’t immediately tossed for hitting Molina. Positively shocked. That was the wrong call, all the way. Manuel did the right thing by removing him anyway.

"I'm not sure what the hell charisma is, but I have the feeling it's Willie Mays." --Ted Kluszewski

by Rick Parker (Lewis) Can't Lose on Aug 19, 2009 9:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs