I am a Giants fan. And I am not ashamed.
I am a Giants fan, and I am not ashamed.
Anyone who calls himself a baseball fan has had to come to terms with the steroid era. Guys we liked, guys we cheered for, were cheaters. That’s the meme; that’s how it’s presented, that’s the rhetoric of PEDs. In every other sport, steroids carry with them the stigma of disgrace. Olympic athletes compete, and then they pee in a cup, and if their test is positive, they’re disgraced publicly, their medals stripped from them, their reputations irreparably tarnished. Lance Armstrong isn’t just a great cyclist. He’s a cyclist about whom there are questions.
But we’re Giants’ fans. We didn’t just root for a cheater. We rooted for the worst cheater of them all, the most brazen cheater in all of sports: Barry Lamar Bonds, the one player, above all others, who defined the steroid era. Not only the best player in baseball, but the greatest offensive force in the history of baseball played on our favorite team, for fourteen years. The record book tells one story. Game of Shadows tells another. And because of that book, and BALCO, and the legal proceedings, we know more about Barry Bonds than we know about any other player implicated in steroid use. To the degree that records achieved with the aid of steroids are tainted, Barry Bonds’ records bear that taint. The most preposterous statistical record ever accumulated by a major league baseball player was the result of talent, yes, and discipline, yes, and hard work and sacrifice, yes. And also the cream and the clear.
That’s our guy. We rooted for him. We defended him, some of us. We didn’t quit being Giants’ fans when it all came out. Shame on us. Shame on us all.
Well, I don’t feel ashamed and I don’t feel embarrassed. And I’m not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that it didn’t happen, or attack Fainaru-Wada and Williams, or say ‘hey, he never tested positive,’ or use any of those defenses. Instead, I want to locate Barry Bonds historically, try to understand just who Barry Bonds was and what his achievements really do mean. I think history, if approached with some rigor, can lead to understanding. Ty Cobb was a great baseball player; he’s not a bad historical parallel with Bonds, in some ways. Well, everyone knows who Ty Cobb was. He was a racist, he was a vicious creep, he was a borderline sociopath; Bill James, in the first edition of his Historical Abstract, suggested Cobb was barely human. Then we learned more. James learned more. And a more complex, more thoughtful, more compassionate, more rounded, more human picture has emerged.
In a professional baseball clubhouse, players face, above all, one overriding imperative: to do whatever you can to improve your professional abilities. If you’re injured, you work hard at rehab, if you’re in a slump, you take extra batting practice and watch extra video of your at bats, if they’re sitting on your fastball, you develop other pitches, if there’s even the tiniest chance you might be asked to play another position than the one you normally play, you take extra infield practice. Locker room culture reinforces this imperative, through kangaroo courts and through good natured ribbing—which always carries a bit of an edge--and sometimes, through direct confrontation. Players will stand by their teammates publically, but they’ll let a guy know if he’s not pulling his weight.
This culture of continual improvement is probably more pronounced in baseball than in other professional team sports, because baseball is institutionally unique ; ballclubs have farm systems. Baseball has invented the most brutally efficient, ferociously competitive means of identifying, winnowing and refining talent the sports world has ever seen. Major league players are the triumphant survivors of a system in which any weakness can destroy you. The locker room culture that inevitably emerges is the ultimate adaptation to a frantically hostile environment.
Barry Bonds was, like all ballplayers, a triumphant survivor of that system. But what we sometimes forget is that Barry Bonds grew up in that environment. In fact, I don’t think it’s an accident that a disproportionate number of ballplayers’ kids end up making it to the majors. In Moneyball, one of the things that attracts Billy Beane to Nick Swisher is the fact that his Dad played in the big leagues. He’s already acculturated. People often talk about Barry as a locker room cancer; he had three lockers, he had the big armchair, he couldn’t remember Aaron Rowand’s first name. Maybe so. A lot of professional athletes are raised in an atmosphere of entitlement; it makes some of them real jerks. Most players also come from lower to lower/middle class backgrounds; their sense of entitlement comes from being good at something most of us would love to be good at, so we cut the guys who really are good at it some slack. But Barry was, for most of his childhood, a rich kid: private schools, all the toys he wanted. Add ‘spoiled ballplayer’ to ‘spoiled rich kid,’ and it’s not surprising you end up with a brat. And that’s Barry. There are times he can be kind of a brat.
But Barry Bonds wasn’t just the son of a ballplayer. He was the son of Bobby Bonds. And Bobby was really pretty unique. Highly intelligent, brilliantly talented, strangely flawed, Bobby Bonds was a player years ahead of his time. He was a superb outfielder, a terrific baserunner. As a hitter, he had the ultimate Three True Outcomes approach. Every year, from 1968 to 1981, he drew a ton of walks, hit lots of homers, and struck out. In an era where batting average was seen as the most important statistical measure of a player’s success, he was a disappointing player, a Great Talent who never became the star he should have been. His was a peripatetic career, from ’75 to ’81, he was traded every year except one. This is the one that amazes me: after the 1975 season, the New York Yankees decided they just didn’t need a twenty nine year old corner outfielder who’d put up a .270/.375/.512 line in the toughest park in the American League for a right handed power hitter. Traded him to the Angels for Mickey Rivers and Ed Figueroa. How would we see him today, a guy who put up an OPS+ over 100 for 11 straight years? How was he seen in his day? As a guy who you had to bat leadoff despite his power, because he just struck out too much to bat .300, like good hitters did.
That was Bobby Bonds, not a Hall of Famer, but a terrific player who was undervalued through most of his career, a bright guy, who was respected by his teammates for his work ethic and attitude, but who was forever disappointing his managers and GM’s. Therefore, a guy who could be forgiven for having a certain disdain for baseball’s conventional wisdom. And, of course, the single most important formative influence on his son Barry. So it’s hardly surprising that Barry didn’t do a lot of things the way other people did. Including steroids.
Point One: Baseball bats are made of ash. Have been since 1884, when Bud Hillerich sat at his lathe and made an ash bat for Pete Browning. Not Barry, his bats are maple. He met Sam Holman in ’97, worked with him to devise a better bat. And since 2001, a lot more players use maple. 73 homers will do that.
Point Two: Power hitters don’t choke up on the bat. If you want to hit home runs, you swing from the knob. Except Barry, who thought he could get around on an inside fastball better if he choked up.
Point Three: there’s a longstanding culture of hustle in baseball. You run out ground balls, you hustle down the line on fly balls; if you’re an outfielder, you hustle to field routine singles. Not Barry. He’d hustle if the game was on the line, but if the game wasn’t close, and someone hit a single to left, Barry would hardly even trot over to field it. When you run hard, you risk pulling a muscle, and it’s a long season. Barry knew that keeping his bat in the lineup was much more important than that one single getting stretched to a double.
So when it came to steroids, it’s not surprising that Barry Bonds, once again, wasn’t like anyone else. Jose Canseco has described the way steroids worked in most locker rooms. A guy would ask a teammate to stick a needle in his ass. Barry’s steroid use, on the other hand, was at BALCO, part of an intensive program of workouts and diet and weight work and drugs intended to create the perfect ballplayer. In all his public testimony about steroids, have you noticed how Barry seems sort of baffled by it all? Like, why does this even matter? To him, the steroids part didn’t particularly matter. BALCO was a lab, and Victor Conte and Greg Anderson and Patrick Arnold its mad scientists. The cream and the clear were just part of an entire workout program individually tailored for Barry Bonds.
And what was that about? It was about that one overriding locker room imperative: to do whatever it took to improve. To do whatever you had to to get better at your job. If your arm hurts, take a cortisone shot. Pull something, work harder at rehab. If you’re in a slump, take extra batting practice. Barry Bonds saw the possibility of becoming the greatest offensive force the game had ever seen. From his father, he knew about the overriding importance of walks and power. From the locker room culture that formed him, he was motivated to devise the perfect workout, the perfect combination of weight work and diet and running that would enhance his already supernal hand/eye coordination.
Now, there was another imperative competing with the locker room grand imperative, a social taboo against cheating, an awareness that steroids were illegal, against the rules of baseball, frowned on by society. But when faced with two competing moral imperatives, most people choose the one closest to home, the one that’s reinforced most directly and personally. Baseball had a rule against steroids, it’s true. But with essentially no enforcement mechanism, no testing, no real consequences if caught, it’s inevitable that many many players would ignore it. We don’t know how many players used steroids, of course, but I think we can assume that from the early ‘90’s on, most players were using. Why wouldn’t they? Everything all the other guys in the locker room were doing—all the cortisone shots and the extra batting practice and all the video watching and physical therapy—surely sent a message to many that you weren’t a good teammate if you didn’t do this too. Given the salary structure of the game, it surely didn’t make economic sense not to.
My least favorite meme capturing the whole moralistic response to steroids that permeates our media is the argument that ballplayers in the Good Old Days had integrity, by gum. You didn’t see Mays and Mantle and Clemente and Aaron shooting up in their locker rooms. No, but you did see Mickey Mantle miss a World Series because a quack shot him up with vitamins using a dirty needle. We’ve all read Ball Four. Players in Bouton’s era all faced the same pressures, and all resorted to the same remedy; they used illegal performance enhancing drugs when they could get their hands on them, knowing there was little chance they’d get caught. They all used greenies. We don’t know specifically that Willie Mays used greenies, but I wouldn’t think less of him if he did. They were the PEDs of his era, and players took them for the same reason players took steroids. To get better at their jobs.
Besides, baseball has always fostered a culture of good natured cheating. Sign stealing, spitballs, phantom double plays: if you can find an edge, you exploit it. How much of Barry Bonds’ success can be attributed to steroids? How much of Gaylord Perry’s success can be attributed to loading up? We don’t know the answer to either question.
What I do know is that Barry Bonds set himself a task that American society generally finds laudable. He decided to become the very best at his profession, the best he could be, the best there ever was. He decided to disregard every other consideration to achieve that goal. And he did it. He became the greatest offensive force in the history of the game of baseball. I was a fan, and I got to watch it, and it was something to behold.
And I will not apologize for enjoying it. I’m not going to throw my hands up in disgust and quit liking baseball. I’m not going to say ‘they’re all cheats and they’re all dirty, and they’re terrible role models and to hell with ‘em.’ I’m going to tell my children that there was a unique time in baseball history, where a combination of cultural pressures, economic realities, and non-existent enforcement standards produced a generation of baseball players who made the decision to risk their health and break the law, because that was what they thought they needed to do to get really good at their jobs. And they did, and the baseball that resulted was glorious. Tragically glorious, perhaps. Sadly glorious, almost certainly. But it was sure fun to watch.
I am a San Francisco Giants fan. For fourteen years, Barry Bonds was my favorite player. And I will not apologize. I am a Giants fan, and I am not ashamed.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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"And the baseball that resulted was glorious."
Watching Barry Bonds lead the Giants to winning season after winning season (oh yeah, and break records) was obviously a whole lot of fun to watch. But on the whole, I’d say that the effects of the steroid era – more home runs, more strikeouts, less of everything else – made for a less exciting brand of baseball than that of the 70s and 80s. We seem to be inching back toward the game of the pre-steroid era, one in which teams had a real diversity of offensive and defensive options, not one-dimensional attacks, and I’m all for it.
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
+1
McGwire: Do you want to know the terrifying truth, or do you want to see me sock a few dingers?
Crowd: Dingers! Dingers!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Aug 16, 2009 6:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Next time you post , please be more elaborate
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Aug 16, 2009 4:45 AM PDT reply actions
It's not really cheating if everybody does it.
Every “team” at least.
Of the 100 dudes on that government list, would it be a stretch to think that all the 3-4-5 hitters in MLB were on it?
How would it be unfair if all the teams are doing the same “cheat” the same way?
“It’s not really cheating if everybody does it.”
Or if it’s not against the rules…
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Or so you say.
And…was there really a rule against the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs? At best, it is a debatable point. The Commissioner issued edicts banning the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs. People who were raised on the image of an all-powerful commissioner whose every word was law are thus inclined to believe that there was a rule against it.
But "rules", in civilized society, have certain characteristics. They are agreed to by a process in which all of the interested parties participate. They are included in the rule book. There is a process for enforcing them. Someone is assigned to enforce the rule, and that authority is
given the powers necessary to enforce the rule. There are specified and reasonable punishments for violation of the rules.
The "rule" against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these gates. It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly and absolutely have a right to participate in the process of changing any and all rules to which they are subject.
It was not included in any of the various rule books that define the conduct of the game from various perspectives. There was no process for enforcing such a rule. The punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent in fact.
-Bill James
Just some food for thought.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m well aware of what transpired. The point is this is a well reasoned and thoughtful response to what Fay Vincent says to make you actually think deeper about the issue. Fay Vincent can say whatever he wants, that doesn’t necessarily make him right.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s a very strong word for what sounds to me like a legal debate that didn’t happen (and thus didn’t give us any conclusions to the issue)…
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions
This (though I still expect to be called a name, even though I am agreeing with you)
Sunday used to be game night with my friends and me. We would play games like Uno and other games that I am now forgetting. I forget exactly when it happened, but we began cheating. Soon the name of the game was to cheat. We all were doing it. If one of us was caught, then we had to take back the cheating action. There were no other penalties. Cheating was the name of the game. Therefore, cheating wasn’t in fact cheating to us. I believe that the games were funner because of it.
There was obviously a culture in MLB that was permissive to steroid use. Quite aside from the fact that steroids, specifically, weren’t a banned substance in baseball, if steroids were the name of the game then it can’t be considered cheating.
I don’t know how, specifically, steroids affected the game of baseball. I will not make the judgment call on whether the game was better or worse for it. All I know is that I enjoyed baseball during the “steroid era,” just like I have enjoyed baseball since I became a fan 21 years ago. And Barry was the greatest player I have ever seen play.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
All I know is that I enjoyed baseball during the "steroid era," just like I have enjoyed baseball since I became a fan2135 years ago. And Barry was the greatest player I have ever seen play.
Agreed, and thanks for saving me the writing. Society and culture change as time moves on. “Cheating” is often viewed in the context of its era. Babe Ruth did not play against some of the greatest basball players of his time.
The reaction from most baseball fans has been to evaluate and view this era for what it was. As more infomation becomes available, it appears that many supposedly clean players were involved in using substances that aided their performance.
The reaction from the pious members of the media, and so-called baseball "purists" is to jabber on incessantly about the integrity of a game that has allowed and encouraged virtual slavery by the owners, and institutional racism among other things.
I love baseball, and will until they put me in the ground. Professional baseball is a game. A game that grown men play for money. It has likely not been pure since the first team owner scheduled a game against a lesser team to fill the stadium, and the first player found out that putting something on a ball could make it move differently.
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
Baseball is a game, but MLB is an entertainment business.
And because of this, and because of what was written about the Dodger management in the Mitchell Report I believe that the players were participants in something that was “not discouraged” by the owners and management.
It is my humble opinion that it may not have been policy, but it was not discouraged, in an effort to win back fans who were pissed off by the strike. It worked too, the McGuire/Sosa run did wonders for MLB baseball just when it needed it.
You also have the accusations that the Rangers had their players advised on how to properly use steroids. It seems it was more than simply not discouraged, it was actually rewarded and possibly even encouraged. Baseball certainly hyped the home run over this time period, for sure…
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
There was obviously a culture in MLB that was permissive to steroid use.
One thing that everybody needs to remember is that baseball has always been receptive to cheating – going all the way back 140 years ago to it’s founding days. There has never been an era in MLB that some fairly widespread cheating wasn’t going on. From stealing signs, to doctoring baseballs, to influencing umpires, to deliberately messing with the playing field, to taking drugs/supplements to chemically-enhance performance. Hell, John McGraw, the greatest Giant manager of all-time and the guy that put us on the map, was one of the biggest cheaters ever. One other thing, don’t get fooled into believing that PEDs were only widespread in the past 20 years. PEDs have been a big part of baseball at least since the beginning of the 1900’s.
So, I don’t hold with all the people trying to assign guilt now, based on some fabled “golden era” of baseball’s past when nobody cheated. Hank Aaron is a total hypocrite on this – because in his era there was widespread abuse of speed, among other PEDs, as well as other forms of cheating. I wish that there wasn’t any cheating ever, but I don’t feel any personal guilt for not caring too much about the cheating that took place in the “steroid era”. It would be different if only 1 or 2 guys had been doing it (which is the story that the media had been trying to pin on BLB until recently), but that’s just not the case, and never has been in the entire history of baseball.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
There were anabolic steroids in Aaron’s era, too, not just greenies. Just read what Tom House had to say about it when he admitted he used steroids as far back as the early 1970’s…
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
exactly
That was one of the things that I was implicitly referring to when I wrote: “…in his era there was widespread abuse of speed, among other PEDs”. I just didn’t highlight steroid use because, from what I’ve read, they weren’t nearly as widespread as speed was back then.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I was just making sure to point it out, I wasn’t clear you recognized it. A lot of people know about the greenies but don’t realize that anabolic steroids were used back then (though your point stands that greenies were way bigger).
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
long thoughtful posts
I’m sorry for those people who read so slowly (moving their lips, maybe?) or are so darned busy that they can’t spare the time to read long, thoughtful posts, and have to limit themselves to a quip at a time. I’m surprised that they have the time to toss in their own (laboriously conceived?) quips. Me, I like people to speak at length, as long as the topic is worth it, the points are intelligent, and the length isn’t because of redundancies. Gf4l’s post qualifies, as far as I’m concerned.
Very well written and very well considered.
Thank you for your post.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
I am embarrased for the way the rest of baseball acted towards Bonds
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2009 9:48 AM PDT reply actions
yeah. this pretty much.
"I would've been here sooner but I had to shake the Veleasels"
by The Gene Hackman on Aug 17, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Fo' RIL doh!
I was in Philly when the left field stands had that huge banner about Babe doing it on hot dogs and beer and Aaron doing it with class and blah blah blah (and to which Barry responded by denting the facing of the third deck in right).
Which, I admit, was funnier and classier than, say, the syringe-throwing San Diegans. But then you hear that Ruth tried injecting himself with a serum from a sheep’s testicles to boost his testosterone (I read it online, so it must be true), and that greenies were so prevalent during Aaron’s career that there’s almost no chance he didn’t do them.
And you think Ruth doing it against inferior, segregated competition, and you consider that Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium was nicknamed “The Launch Pad.”
And you say, screw it, the world is and always has been flawed. BARRY, BITCHEZZ!!
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Aug 18, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Aaron admitted he tried greenies once. The old Petite argument, “yeah, I tried it, I made a mistake, didn’t like it, and didn’t do it again”…
Aaron’s world also included anabolic steroids, though who knows how widespread it was…
“The Launch Pad” had fences moved in specifically for Hank Aaron.
But yeah, your general point is spot on!
by Missing Barry on Aug 18, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Great piece
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Jesus fuck with the goddamn Armstrong BS.
What ARE the fucking questions?
Has he failed a test?
Are his results consistent with his lifetime body of work?
Come on with the more pertinent ones , the ones that make him out to be a cheat.
Or just stop already.
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 16, 2009 5:53 PM PDT reply actions
My 2 cents
Let me confess from the start that I am a die-hard A’s fan … I was just cruisin’ your site to see what you guys had to say about the Mets game today. But I read this post and felt like I was somewhat qualified to comment, considering the fact my team kind of set the bar for steroid use …
I agree with Giantsfan4life … he ought to be proud to be a Giants fan. Why wouldn’t he? Just because you had a player or two (or three, who knows) that used steroids, this means you shouldn’t root for your team?! If Barry Bonds had been on the A’s, I’d of rooted my ass off for him, too. This is why Dodger fans root for Manny, why Red Sox fans root for Ortiz, and on and on. We want our team to win. Period. Everything else is secondary. This is why it’s so stupid when writers or broadcasters act appalled when fans support the steroid-users on our team(s) … all we care about is winning … and I have no problem with this whatsoever. That’s the way it should be.
However, this should not mean that we stick our heads in the sand and act as if “our” players are clean. Hell, we used to sit out in the bleachers in ‘88 and laugh our asses off at Canseco and McGwire, because it was very obvious they were using steroids. Big shocker when it came out years later … not.
My only beef with Giants fans who rooted for Bonds, or Dodger fans who root for Manny, etc. is when they think this means it’s necessary to defend the players (kinda like victor frankenstein above.) I knew 20 years ago that Canseco was using steroids. Didn’t bother me then, doesn’t bother me now. But I don’t deny it, either. Asking for “proof” before one believes Bonds used steroids is kinda like finding your wife in bed with the mailman … clothes off, hair messed up … but because you didn’t catch them actually in the act, you insist you need proof before you believe they had sex. Ok, fine. But you’re still a complete idiot for buying it.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
You make good points. I disagree with one thing, though.
“My only beef with Giants fans who rooted for Bonds, or Dodger fans who root for Manny, etc. is when they think this means it’s necessary to defend the players”
For some (like possibly myself?), I’d be willing to bet this is directly in response to these people:
“this should not mean that we stick our heads in the sand and act as if "our" players are clean”
Living on the east coast, I’ve taken so much crap for so many years from my friends that were Yankees fans, Red Sox fans, even a Reds fan who’s a big Griffey fan (yes, I’m convinced Griffey used). All the while it was obvious Bobby Estella wasn’t the only one using ‘roids (I don’t use Bonds as my example because he was clean, obviously). There are so many other fans, though, unless their favorite player has been caught, that act like somehow they’re above the steroids issue because they root for clean players (in other words, players that simply weren’t caught). Defending Bonds forever is only a natural reaction to this. There are definitely a number of people I know who I would never, ever – no matter what evidence was sitting right in front of me – admit that Bonds used anything to.
Also, my default response to anyone I don’t know is that Bonds was clean, there really are that many fans with media created, distorted viewpoints on the issue, that I figure I’ll let them prove they’re reasonable about it to me before I’m reasonable about my opinion with them…
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I hear what you're sayin' ...
It’s never bothered me to admit that many of the A’s were using, so it’s always really funny to me when fans think that “their team” is as pure as the driven snow. (Or should I say “claim” that their team is clean, because any reasonably intelligent fan knows otherwise.) What a joke. It just goes to show ya, most fans are stupid as hell.
So go ahead man, when you run into these clowns, defend Barry to the death … I totally agree. (wink, wink)
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
I'm not sticking my head in the sand concerning Lance Armstrong.
(What’s that? A Giants blog? Oh. What could I add that hasn’t already been said? And there you are.)
“Sticking my head in the sand” implies that I am trying to ignore damning evidence…it’s not that I choose not to see it , I honestly don’t believe it exists. Indurain won five in a row…who’s yelling for his head?
I haven’t seen nor heard of anything he’s said or done which would lead me to conclude that his results are anything other than those of a determined and superior athlete.
If there’s factual , scientific evidence – and not the hearsay of disgruntled trainers or soigneurs – then I’d have to take it into account. Until that happens , however , I’m lumping everyone into the same category so classlessly represented by Greg Lemond – whiners.
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 16, 2009 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions
OK , wait a sec. My context perception is screwy here.
I AM defending Armstrong’s “clean” status , but I don’t believe I’m doing so in spite of evidence to the contrary.
There , that’s better.
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 16, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the most compelling evidence is if you’re into biking, you realize just how many people cheat. 7 in a row is an amazing feat in itself, but to do it clean, beating the best in the world while they cheat would simply be…beyond words. Maybe he did, and I’m not saying there’s compelling evidence he cheated or anything, it’s just hard to believe he accomplished what he did without doing what everyone else was doing.
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I apologize victor
for some reason, I completely missed the “Armstrong” in your earlier post and thought you were writing about Bonds. Sorry about that.
Yeah, I don’t know whether Armstrong juiced or not … biking isn’t my thing … but I just gotta say it, Lance Armstrong is one giant, arrogant jerk. Great athlete, don’t get me wrong, but he’d be the first guy to tell you how unbelievably talented and good looking he is — “did I mention I beat cancer?” — and on and on and on. Can’t stand the dude.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
On Barry , et al
Oh , he transformed , I’ll go along with that.
I’m no moralist or purist , so I was entertained without reservation. It definitely helped my entertainment that he wore laundry I appreciate on a sentimental basis , but if he DH’d for the Red Sox I’d still appreciate a good 450 foot bomb…just hope it isn’t against some West Coast club he used to play for.
The ensuing courtroom drama is also entertaining , like watching a movie where you know the guilt of the pursued yet you’re interested in the possibility that he makes his escape.
Is Lance a jerk? You may have had – or read accounts of – supporting experiences , I haven’t. While this doesn’t negate that possibility I can’t assume that he is simply because I read that you think he is anymore than when someone tells me there’s a place we go after we die or that there’s someone who would hear my prayers.
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 17, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Lance = Barry
I view Lance Armstrong pretty much the same as I view Barry.
I think he’s the greatest cyclist of all time. I think what he accomplished is amazing, unprecedented, and inspiring. I think he fully deserves everything he’s achieved, including all of the praise and adulation.
And I think absolutely he has used. Every knowledgable person I’ve talked to about Lance and cycling—including my brother-in-law, who races competitively, is an MD, and a great admirer of Lance—say that PED use is absolutely standard procedure at the highest levels of cycling. Their consensus is there is no way that Lance Armstrong did not use PED’s, or utilize blood doping or genetic engineering to help him accomplish what he did. This is what every single one of these competitors do.
I agree, Lance has never been caught, just as Indurain was never caught. So technically, he is clean. But I think that believing Lance is clean is about as hard to defend as truly believing that Barry was clean.
Bottom line, though—I don’t really care that Lance Armstrong used. I think he stands alone as the greatest there ever was, and I consider it a privilege to have been able to witness his feats and all that he accomplished. And that’s exactly the way I feel about Barry Bonds.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
One name - Eddie Merckx
You need to study up on your cycling history – the world didn’t begin in the 1990’s. Lance isn’t even in the top 3 of all time greatest cyclist. Except for 1 year (1993), he was a one-trick pony – he knew how to win the Tour de France. However, he never won an Olympic medal, and he was never able to have a year where he dominated the entire world of pro cycling by winning the one day classics and the famous multi-day tours (Italy, France, Spain). You have a much better argument claiming that Bonds was the best baseball player of all time (though I disagree with that), because at least Bonds was able to dominate every aspect of the game (hitting for average, hitting for power, defense, baserunning) for many seasons.
The best cyclist of all time? Without a doubt it was Eddie Merckx. The dude did it all – in his prime he could out-sprint, out-climb, and outlast every rider in the world. He dominated every aspect of cycling for a decade. Over a 5 year span (1970-74) he won almost 40% of the races he started! That includes stages in the great Tours. Can you even imagine Armstrong winning 40% of the stages in a single Tour de France? Merckx is still the only rider to win the yellow, green and red polka-dotted jersey in the same Tour de France. That means he won the overall Tour and was the best climber, and the best sprinter. That would be equivalent to winning the Triple Crown in baseball.
Here are some of his career records:
-Most career victories by a professional cyclist: 525.
-Most victories in one season: 54.
-Most stage victories in the Tour de France: 34.
-Most stage victories in one Tour de France: 8, in 1970 and 1974
-Most days with the yellow jersey in the Tour de France: 96.
-Most victories in classics: 28.
-Most victories in one single classic: 7 (in Milan-Sanremo).
-Most Grand Tour Victories 11
Check out his career:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Merx
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
OK, fair enough...
I really don’t want to study up on my cycling history right now. I do know about Eddie Merckx, and that bicycle races have taken place for many, many years—and yes, even before the 1990’s. And your points are all well taken. I was mainly attempting to make a different point. I went over-the-top. I’m sorry to have offended you. I hope you won’t mind if I still consider Lance Armstrong to be one of the greatest cyclists ever.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
And he gets bonus points for the random x in his name.
“Lance Armstrong?” LOL suspiciously fake-sounding name.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Aug 18, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Joop Zoetemelk.
If it weren’t for spinal meningitis…and that one guy Ed Marks or something…
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 18, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Let's not forget Dave Stoller!!
Buon giorno, papa!
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
Cutter!
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
“Refund??!!”
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 21, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow.
I think I see your point. And I agree with you when it comes to this … I don’t give one rip if Canseco or McGwire or Henderson or Eckersley, etc. used PED’s. I don’t feel guilty about the WS title — I don’t feel as if it’s tainted — I don’t feel bad. Period.
But here’s where I differ, I think. I don’t feel “privileged” at all. I’ll be damned if I get all goose-bumped and giggly just because some guy can hit a baseball far, or average 30 points a game, or score 100 touchdowns in a season. That went out the window when I turned 10. Because none of these things determine what kind of man you are. Not one. Physical talent has not and never will equal integrity, courage, or character.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Sssh.
That may be true but don’t let it get around. It’s bad for business.
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Aug 18, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I M 5?
I feel like you’re insinuating that I’m a giggling pre-schooler who has never gotten past the age of 10 with his interest in sports, the way you apparently have.
Actually, though, I don’t think we differ here.
I think maybe you’re taking one word I used,“privileged”, and giving it meaning I never intended for it. I wouldn’t say I get “goose-bumped”, and I’ll have you know I’ve never giggled. Not even once. OK, I do get excited when something good happens. I think I jumped up, gave a fist pump, yelled “YES!!”, and high-fived my kids when Jonathan Sanchez got that called third strike and nailed down his no-hitter. Was that wrong? I mean, I’m a fan. It’s supposed to be fun, right? Didn’t you get excited when the A’s won their World Series?
I also haven’t the foggiest idea where you get that I’m equating athletic prowess with “integrity, courage, or character” and “what kind of man you are”. That’s also wrong. I actually don’t have a great deal of respect for either Armstrong or Bonds (particularly Bonds), as human beings. I do say that Armstrong’s battle back from cancer is inspirational, and I admire Bonds and Armstrong both, for their hard work and for the dedication it took to accomplish what they did in their given sports.
I “consider it a privilege” means I’m glad I got to witness something unique and amazing and rare. Actually, when I think of Bonds, the first thing I remember was a game against the Reds in 1994. I had just returned home to the US after living in China for three years. One of the first things I wanted to do was to go see a Giants game. My friend and I happened to choose a game where Bonds hit three home runs…and the Giants still lost, 9-7. Still, it was a warm, sunny day at Candlestick, it was great to be back in the States, great to hang out with my friend, great to be able to go a ballgame, and great to watch Barry Bonds be awesome. It’s a fun memory. I wouldn’t say it’s one of the top 10 memories of my life. Probably not even top 100. But I do remember it, and it’s just one of those little moments where you say, “Life is good!”
So, I don’t know—is that a little too goose-bumpy and giggly?
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
No man, good stuff.
“Privileged” can mean several things … I shouldn’t have jumped to conclusions. Great post.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
I wish one ballplayer would come out & say “I took steroids for the success of my teammates, the pocketbook of the owners, and the entertainment of the fans. You’re welcome.”
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
For a couple days I was hoping that ballplayer would be Bronson Arroyo. But yeah, I agree completely, someone needs to just tell the writers to shove it and they don’t care and would have done it again…
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2009 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Arroyo did say some very true and necessary things, like asking if people really give a shit about Manny Ramirez’s health. I’d venture a guess that nobody cares.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 18, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I was happy to read what Arroyo said, I just got my hopes up that he’d take it all the way for a while…
by Missing Barry on Aug 18, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
perhaps losing a WS to the Angels (how many asterisks in that lineup btw?), we avoided the inevitable scandal of a tainted crown in 2000. I don’t say that lighty- I was there. It deeply sucked to lose, and I did some things I’m not proud of immediately Game 7.
But thinking back to the whole investigation- how it was framed, and how the team and the city were portrayed- the City and our Giants would have been crucified had we taken the series- by the sports media, east coast biased mofos of all stripes, dodger fans, congress, alberto gonzalez and other varied scum.
All the more reason to win now, in whatever new era we’ve entered. It would serve as a fitting Effe Ewe to the rest of the league for piling on when our integrity was so seriously called into question.
Choppin' broccoli
Bill Simmons sez yer wrong and didn't think that.
But here’s what I find fascinating …
Any Cubs fan will tell you they are still recovering from the Bartman Game. Any Giants fan will tell you they are still recovering from their team’s unraveling in Game 6 of the 2002 World Series. The 2003 Cubs were led by Sammy Sosa. The 2002 Giants were led by Barry Bonds. Now, you’d think both fan bases would say, “Looking back now, it doesn’t hurt as nearly much as it should given what happened with Sosa/Bonds after the fact. In a weird way, we are off the hook! We were saved from an asterisk title!”
Nope. They remain devastated. So crushing losses can’t be de-tainted, but tremendous victories can still be tainted. Confusing, right? That’s why I don’t believe in asterisks. The Cubs and Giants fans would have switched places with the ‘04 or ’07 Red Sox in a heartbeat. That isn’t to completely forgive what happened. I will never watch a Manny/Papi highlight from 2004 or 2007 again without 0.0001 percent of my brain thinking … you know. (The shadow again.) Would I do it all over again? Of course. Anything for a title. That makes me no better than anyone who cheated.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Aug 18, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I love this post.
But, again, the A’s ‘89 title doesn’t mean any less to me knowing several of the guys used PED’s. Not a bit. So I agree that “losses can’t be de-tainted” but I completely disagree that “tremendous victories can still be tainted.” Nope. You win, you win. You lose, you lose. Wear it.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Bravo
Really excellent post. Thank you so much. Just amazing.
by positiveuphemism on Aug 18, 2009 1:07 AM PDT reply actions
I stood and applauded...
Really. This is just excellent. I’m going to have this at the ready for my friends who continue to be duped by the prevailing hysteria.
I especially love this paragraph…
What I do know is that Barry Bonds set himself a task that American society generally finds laudable. He decided to become the very best at his profession, the best he could be, the best there ever was. He decided to disregard every other consideration to achieve that goal. And he did it. He became the greatest offensive force in the history of the game of baseball. I was a fan, and I got to watch it, and it was something to behold.
So often, we as Giants fans have been scolded and scorned by moralizing media and Kool-Aid-drinking fans, for not being ashamed of Barry; for not hating him. I would never hate a player like Bonds—someone who got the most out of his abilities (OK, and then some), and did so much to help the Giants become a contender, year after year. No, it’s those players who sign big contracts, and then appear to give less than their best effort, or who don’t seem to care about staying in shape, or who don’t get the most out of their talent, or who just basically don’t seem to give a rip—those are the players that earn my ire. Not Barry Bonds.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
Won't someone PLEASE think of the children!?!
I basically agree with this whole post, and feel that most of the rest of baseball owes Barry, the Giants, and us fans an apology.
But it’s a little disingenuous to paint Barry as an altruistic saint doing whatever he could to help the team win. From everything I’ve heard, he was pissed that the 1998 HR chase stole his spotlight despite his having a statistically much better year than did Mac or Sosa. After the season, he was at Griffey’s house (IIRC) and said, screw it, I’m going on the hard stuff if that’s what it takes to get attention.
He’s an overgrown child and an out-and-out glory hound. Not that I’m complaining. The home run of his that I caught (#652) probably wouldn’t have cleared the fence without juice.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Aug 18, 2009 11:24 AM PDT reply actions
I never called him altruistic
On the contrary, I call him a ‘brat.’ Yes, he was certainly an overgrown child and a glory hound, and his motives were hardly pure. All true. I’m not nominating him for sainthood, I’m taking the asterisk off his records.
Also, sure, I think there are health risks associated with steroids, and I’m absolutely concerned about high school kids using them to bulk up. That should be part of the conversation we have in this country about steroids. I just think that conversation hasn’t happened yet. It’s been drowned out by moralizing and hysteria.
Fulfilling your Gus Benusa needs since 2009!
by Giantsfan4life on Aug 18, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I say we go the opposite direction. Put asterisks on everyone!
No, as I said, I agree with you.
People have knee-jerk extremist reactions (OMG Matt Cain tried to kill David Wright and spit on his prone body!) and scramble to be holier-than-thou. Remember after 9/11 when all the sportswriters were declaring that they’d never again use war metaphors, or refer to players as heroes, or to Duncan and Robinson as the Twin Towers? Or Gene Wojciechowski last week on ESPN with this moralistic crap about giving up baseball forever if Jeter or Junior or Chipper or Mo or Pujols or Mauer or Thome or Timmeh or Hoffman or Wright tests positive.
Sigh. If only we could be so lucky.
Giants wins feel better than Dodger losses, but it's darn close.
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Aug 18, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
HOW ABOUT NOW
FUCKING GIANTS
I WANT TO COOK PUPPIES!
"I suddenly hate Canada with a passion = BASTARDS!!!!!! " -Mr K, Upon hearing Moyes filing Chapter 11

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