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What is wrong with Giants trainers?


We all know the drill:  Giants vet gets hurt but not hurt enough to put on the DL, but ends up missing 7-14 days/games anyway, then repeats again later in the season, missing more games, or just performs poorly.

The names we know:  Durham, Alou, Winn, Roberts, Rowand, Uribe, Renteria, Aurilia.   Why does it seem like Giants players always sit around on the bench with these semi-injuries?  Or come back from these performing poorly?  Why don't the Giants just DL them for 15 days and make do?  Why don't the Giants just let them rest and get well instead of running them out there, taking up a spot on the bench, useless? 

Especially hamstrings.  Except for Barry Bonds, I would have prefered the Giants just DLed anybody who tweaked their hamstring in the last 5 years, because it seems like they spend at least a week doing the "will he/won't he" dance before finally playing again.  Just get it well.

And isn't there a way to detect bone spurs or something?  Both Roberts and Renteria have been busts offensively because they had bone spurs that needed operations.  Roberts was fine once he had the operation, but if this could have been detected beforehand, then we don't sign him or Renteria. 

Star-divide

 

Off Topic, but if anyone can prove that Gary Darling is a Dodger's fan in umpire's clothing, I would like to see it sent to the Commissioner's office.  If not for his two bone-head calls, it is 3-1 Giants (and Lincecum) win, instead of 2-2 extra innings....

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Roberts & Renteria were busts because they sucked, not because of any injuries.

It was obvious that neither of these guys should’ve been signed, injury or not. Sabean has a thing for veterans, in case you hadn’t noticed.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Aug 12, 2009 4:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It’s true but it’s still terrible to have guys like them up on the team when they’re obviously too injured to play effectively. I don’t understand why the Giants are so reluctant to put guys on the DL when they end up missing like 10 days anyway.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Aug 12, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you can judge the Renteria signing like that

We HAD to sign a SS. HAD TO. We didn’t get Furcal, and we paid too much Rent, but of the options available, it was one of the least sucky. There was a reasonable chance that he would turn up with a fork sticking out of his back (and he did), but it was a move that had to be made. Would going into the season with Burriss/Hudson be better… in some ways, sure, Hudson == Not done. But Burriss would be even worse at SS than Renteria is now. I

When it turns out the right answer was “Starting SS, Juan Uribe” then I think you can forgive mgt. a little for trying other options that didn’t quite work out.

Now, this doesn’t really turn Sabean into a hero since it’s his own damn fault he has no middle IF depth… but atomically it was a reasonable move.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll keep yammering about this: A Vizquel/Uribe platoon would have been a good solution. Obviously better on a cost-benefit basis, and with a reasonable chance of being absolutely better — as, in fact, it has turned out.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't really platoon them

Both hit better against lefties.

HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?

:-) :-) :-)

by Cookyman on Aug 13, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t thinking of a strict left/right platoon, more of a keep-them-both-fresh platoon … Uribe vs fastball pitchers, Vizquel vs sloptossers … Omar for late-inning defense … etc.

But in fact Vizquel’s career numbers are quite a bit better against righties than against lefties, so you could platoon them that way.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

I read “vs RHP as LH” as “as RH vs LHP”. Nevermind.

HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?

:-) :-) :-)

by Cookyman on Aug 13, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would require a difffernt manager than Big Head. I am also not so sure those two would be able to cover 1200 innings of play in ’09.

That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.

by daveinexile on Aug 14, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh come on

Vizquel was D.O.N.E. done. A much worse bet that Renteria to play well this year.

Zips projected Renteria to put up a .310 wOBA, and Vizquel a .274. Even the “rejuvenated” Vizquel is only putting up a .302 wOBA.

Uribe is hitting about as well as expected, but his SS defense is bad…. would easily cancel out his bat value if he played there the whole season.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

… and this is the inevitable response whenever I yammer about it. Vizquel was obviously and utterly done, even though (a) the numbers indicated he was basically the same hitter he ever was, just with worse luck, and (b) his performance this year has proven that he wasn’t done. It’s pretty remarkable stubbornness.

I don’t think Uribe’s a bad shortstop. Do others?

by Evan on Aug 13, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

so, IYO

zips and every other projection system that takes into account all the luck-bits as well as his age and presumed decline is just garbage, then. If you want to say "I watched him play every day, and I am a pro scout, and I am sure he still had some left in the tank … – fine – that’s your opinion, but the NUMBERS argued very strongly that he was toast. (And the numbers, were, as they are sometimes, wrong).

UZR claims Uribe was a plus SS in 2005-2006, but bad in 2007, and also bad at 3B in 2008. I don’t think you can say much from his 2009 defensive stats because he’s been playing all over. They do say his SS numbers are worse than 2B/3B (and are below average, but the SS is “useless”).

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Projection systems are great. They give you a general sense of what you can expect to happen over a large enough sample of players. But over the tiny sample of one particular player, they’re way off a huge percentage of the time.

Take a look at Vizquel’s peripheral numbers on Fangraphs. There’s really nothing to distinguish his performance last year from any other year in his career. He wasn’t able to hit a homer, as opposed to his usual three or four (in twice as many ABs). Everything else was in his usual range. The only reason to suppose he was done was that he was over 40 — because after all, Giants fans have never seen anyone over 40 play well.

I’m certainly no scout, but I watched Vizquel a lot last year and Renteria occasionally, and it sure looked to me like the latter was more done.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A cost benefit way of looking at it is poor, though, because Sabean grossly overpaid for Renteria. We could have had Renteria for substantially less. Basically, to compare apples to apples I think we would also have to assume Sabean would grossly overpay for the other guys…

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he got Uribe for one million, and Vizquel obviously wasn’t going to command much.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least in the case of Aurilia, he’s seemingly being put on the DL because he’s not good enough to take up a roster spot, and they want to preserve his integrity and give him a farewell tour this year.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 12, 2009 4:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

this

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 13, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bone spurs can be tricky. My wife had them in her shoulder joint for over a year, and several MRIs missed them entirely. Apparently it doesn’t take much of a spur to cause huge amounts of discomfort. In her case, it was small enough to hide amongst all the other stuff in the shoulder joint.

Finally, they agreed to operate, figuring that they’d find some spurs — and they did.

No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball

by Skaldheim on Aug 12, 2009 4:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The sad thing is...

Everyone knows what’s going on with Aurilia. So by playing this little DL fake injury game with him, I think it’s actually making him and the Giants both look worse.

Only when I am eliminated by MIke Krukow will my life's work be complete

by NateisGreat on Aug 12, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, but I'm not talking about this DL

I’m talking about early last year when he was was having that neck problem. He was horrible for a long while, then they finally DLed him.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does it really surprise you that the Giants make poor decisions about everything baseball related that happens in the organization?

by Missing Barry on Aug 12, 2009 6:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I;m glad you don’t paint with a broad brush. Thanks for the specifics.

by tyrannoman on Aug 12, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/8/10/984920/taking-a-pitch-a-short-look-at-the

Plenty of specifics over there. I just get tired of going over the same infuriating details over and over…

by Missing Barry on Aug 12, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

come on, though. Saying the Giants’ “make poor decisions about everything baseball related” is cheap and false.

by tyrannoman on Aug 12, 2009 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You make it sound like the majority of their decisions are good? Obviously not every single decision they make is poor, I was being facetious, but the overall tenure of Brian Sabean and the organization he runs, from top to bottom, has given us a poorly run franchise to root for. It’s frustrating to say the least when you examine the facts and it so clearly shows we still don’t understand the value of patience and OBP offensively – very basic concepts – that we continue to rely on old, overpaid, under-productive veterans, that we still struggle to produce any semblance of a position player out of the farm system, that we can’t adequately manage the 40-man roster, nor the DL, don’t understand the concept of sunk cost or sample size…is that enough specifics for you?

by Missing Barry on Aug 12, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sunk costs like Dave Roberts? Position players like Pablo Sandoval? I don’t know that the front office dosen’t understand OBP or not. I agree that Dunston has no place teaching hitting to anyone, but the true rebuild of the Giants’ didn’t start until 2008, and I think it’s coming along nicely. The organization clearly has a talent for devolping pitchers taken in the lower rounds of the draft, and seem to have drafted well the last three years with high draft picks.

I don’t know if they understand sample size or not, but this years has morphed from on the job training to being in a playoff run. I think that limits the number of AB’s you give you give call ups. I’d rather see Bowker play every day than Winn right now, but I understand why he’s not.

by tyrannoman on Aug 12, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We have one position player we’ve developed into a good player in Brian Sabean’s entire tenure. Maybe two if you want to credit Feliz, which is still weak. That’s a very, very, very long time to only produce Pablo Sandoval. You think Dave Roberts somehow demonstrates they understand sunk cost? Quite to the contrary – Dave Roberts was given 442 PA’s his first year with the Giants. His OPS was under .700. So what did we do? We kept him another year, despite the fact that he was 36 years old at this point. He played in 52 games, and would have played more if he didn’t get hurt (like 36 year olds do). That we FINALLY cut him when we did is an embarassment and shows Sabean has no idea what he’s doing.

“the true rebuild of the Giants’ didn’t start until 2008”

That’s the lamest excuse for Sabean I’ve heard yet. What the hell were we doing in 2005? We won 75 games. What the hell were we doing in 2006? We won 76 games. What the hell we were doing in 2007? We won 71 games. So somehow it’s excuseable that we didn’t start a “true rebuild” despite running out shitty teams for the last 4 seasons before this one? At no point did we realize, hey, this team isn’t that good, but we’ll wait to start rebuilding until 2008? How does that NOT reflect poorly on Sabean?

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Roberts signing is terrible. The part I can’t get around is that the Giants signed him and expected him to handle CF on a full-time basis (and remain healthy while doing so) after he had shown he was incapable of playing CF full-time. He was in LF with the Padres the season before we acquired him and in 2005 he rated as a -12 run defender in CF.

Yet, the Giants expected him to play in CF.

Oh, also, they tried to sign GMJ AND Juan Pierre the same offseason.

/hurls

by xanthan on Aug 13, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Robert’s signing was horrible, but he’s being paid this year, and was paid last year while recovering from his “injury”. Marquis Grissom , Kirk Rueter, etc. There are several players the Giants’ have released in the last year or two of their contract. WTF do you do with a terrible signing? They gave him a little more time, and he was hurt.

Feliz is a very valuable player. Yea, his shortcomings with the bat are tough to watch. No doubt about it. His glovework, however, has been among the best in the league since he’s been a regular at 1B. Anyway, this organization said from the outset they were going to draft and devolp pitching as a #1 priority. They have been quite successful at it. Now that the direction of the organization is changing, they seem to be devolping high potential positional players as well. We’ll find out in a couple of years when Posey, Crawford, et al. reach the bigs.

It’s the same reasons that we’ve all argued about tiem and time again. It was cut and paste around Bonds trying to force some success. Shitty stratgey, but reading between the lines of both local and national beat writers, it seems as though Sabean wanted to tear it all down earilier and was overruled by upper management. I can’t prove that, but saying Sabean has no idea what he’s doing is flat BS. He’s made huge mistakes and had huge successes so lay credit and blame equally.

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve made my piece with the poorly thought out strategy we had of building around Bonds. Sabean didn’t see how overly expensive veterans were, whatever. My issue is the fact that the veterans he did sign were signed for above market value while giving below market results. He simply did a poor job executing a bad strategy to begin with. At that point I have to take issue with him.

Furthermore…

“Anyway, this organization said from the outset they were going to draft and devolp pitching as a #1 priority. They have been quite successful at it.”

Who have we really developed? Cain is very good, Nathan is very good, Lincecum is amazing…and since 1997, who else has this franchise produced as a valuable pitcher? Some guys didn’t work out, and we traded them while they still had value, but those trades brought back crappy overpaid veterans (something Sabean was capable of doing in free agency)…

“WTF do you do with a terrible signing?”

You cut the player long before they hurt you as much as we let someone like Roberts do. After a year a 35 year old who can’t play CF well puts up a sub-.700 OPS, you cut your losses. You don’t wait a year to do it. You realize the sunk cost when appropriate and move on. We’ve cut sunk costs, but it’s always long after they should have been gone.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How come so many don't understand 62-52?

How come so many don’t understand that we would be leading or near the lead of the division in four of the six divisions?

How come so many people don’t understand the beauty of having such a dominating pitching rotation and great defense that you don’t need a great offense to win with it? (I explain it here: http://obsessivegiantscompulsive.blogspot.com/2008/06/hey-neukom-my-giants-business-plan_27.html)

How come people don’t understand that it takes time to rebuild? Teams don’t rebuild just like that. It’s not magical. The Braves took 6 excruciating years with Bobby Cox as the GM before he took over a manager and started their great run of the past 20 years.

How come people don’t understand that if the player don’t have the talent, telling him to take more pitches and get a higher OBP is not going to do much? That when you concentrate a scarce resource like draft picks on pitching, then you sacrifice on hitting talent, hitting talent you need to take a walk? Or that you can lead a Feliz to walks but you can’t make him take a pitch?

While I’m at it, both Roberts and Rowand had career OBP that were at or above the average OBP for players playing their positions. So did Edgardo Alfonzo and Ray Durham when we signed them. Moises Alou too. And I think Renteria was at or above too.

How come so many people have so much to complain about when the Giants are doing way better than anyone expected?

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How come so many people have so much to complain about when the Giants are doing way better than anyone expected?

Because the the large number of obvious and disastrous mistakes they made over the last few seasons. The Giants front office has managed the team like Fred Lewis player defense: a painful to watch trainwreck that still manages to turn out pretty well (If you buy UZR, but that’s another thread).

It’s hard to look back at the last few seasons and not think “we’re pretty good, but imagine where we’d be if we hadn’t wasted so much time and money on under-performing veterans.”

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it is apparent to most that the person responsible for that strategy – Magowan – is gone now.

And I still understand, though disagreed with, that strategy. If you are going to pay Barry Bonds $20M per year, you are basically all in on your bet. To spend that much on Bonds, but then commit to a young player who might not be ready when you got the money to sign a veteran with a history, don’t make sense to some.

And I understand that position. And it is not like the Giants didn’t give young players a chance to start while Bonds was around. It was more that they didn’t have anyone talented enough to take a starting position.

But a big reason for that was that when you are a winning team, you get lousy draft position, and the odds of finding good players via the draft drops drastically. So you do what you do with any scarce resource, you focus on a particular commodity to increase the odds of finding a good player with those skills and to maximize your production.

I think it was a great idea to focus on pitching. Pitching makes up nearly half the positions on a roster and any particular pitcher can hold many of those positions. Flexibility like that allows you to rebuild quickly

That is not something you can do with position players plus you cannot control for which position player will develop and which will not. If you have Orlando Cepeda and a Willie McCovey comes up, you are stuck playing one out of position or eventually trading one off to resolve that. Or Teixeira, Hafner, and A-Gon. Trades add another layer of risk to operating a baseball team.

Howver, pitching is very flexible. If you have Matt Cain and a Tim Lincecum comes along, you just slide him next to him in the rotation, without costing your team, and in this case, improving your team. And if a Madison Bumgarner then comes along, you slide him next to them.

Or if you have a Brian Wilson, with a starter’s repertoire, if you have the makings of a good rotation, you can move him to become the closer. The bullpen can be filled with starters who failed but can be very valuable relievers.

And it is not like any team can rebuild totally with just young prospects over a few years. That’s a fallacy that many people still believe, based on what I’ve been reading here and other places. I’ll bet that no one can show me a team that is rebuilt with only with young prospects. Even the Marlins in their two World Series championships strategically signed free agents like Moises Alou, Bobby Bonila, I-Rod, Todd Hollandsworth, or trade for players like Jeff Conine to help with the playoff run. Even the Tampa Bay Rays, with all those high draft picks over the years of horrible play, needed to sign Percival to be their closer, plus Cliff Floyd to be their DH and Eric Hinske, who played significant amount of games for them.

And while you can complain about the actual results, when the Giants signed many of those high priced free agents, they were considered either the best or one of best ones available on the free agent market. At least they went for one of the best that was available, that is the least they can do if they are going to go all in and execute that strategy.

And which veteran really costed a good prospect development time in the majors? Would you really been happy seeing how the bullpen would work out without a veteran closer and not sign Benitez? As we found not, not so well. But no one could predict he would blow out his leg like that. If we didn’t sign Alfonzo, what would you have been saying about Sabean for starting Pedro Feliz at 3B? And Durham was a good signing at the time, and still was good, but was a lot more trouble than could have been expected, health-wise.

And if you say that is what you get for signing old players, then you come up with a great conundrum: you can’t rebuild unless you sign old players to fill the voids that any farm system will have in developing a team. So you resign yourself to years of losing teams, destined to develop players for other teams, because you can never put together a winning team since you don’t sign free agents because they are old nor trade your young players for them either, well, because they are old.

I think the Giants did the best that they could under the circumstances, looking at the process. There were valid reasons for doing most of what they did. The problem was that most of them didn’t work out, or work out as well as thought.

Still, they put together a great team today and for the next few years at least. Any missteps with vets have been relatively minor hindrances to the team’s farm development, only Sandoval has been really worth giving a lot of time to.

And many forget that the Giants did develop a lot of young prospects, our pitching staff is chock full of them. I think that too many people have been focusing on the pits in orange rather than enjoying the orange juice that the pits are in.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Magowan was gone before they inked Renteria.

And most of the remaining mistake free agent signings were made when Bonds had zero or one year left with the team, long after the whole “we have Barry, we have to win now” argument ceased to hold water. Most of the dead (or under performing) money still on the books was part of what appeared to be a desperate and disasterous attempt to build a veteran core to transition to a post-Bonds contending team. Instead, that veteran core appears to be hurting said contender.

Any missteps with vets have been relatively minor hindrances to the team’s farm development, only Sandoval has been really worth giving a lot of time to.

I’t more about poorly allocated resources than blocking minor leaguers. Honestly, I wasn’t expecting much from any of the prospects above A-ball last season.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 13, 2009 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s more like it.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 13, 2009 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What’s interesting to me is how much this current team is LIKE those earlier teams. It has one incandescent superstar who cranks the excitement level up, a couple of exceptional complements, and then a whole bunch of drek.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Aug 13, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

For a while I thought Sabean might have improved in his approach as a GM. It’s clear at this point he hasn’t. Picking Lincecum was a good pick, but let’s be honest, we lucked into one of the few players in the game that can legitimately carry a team on his back, like Bonds. We’re still putting the same crap around him. Sabean still runs out a bunch of brain dead (not necessarily Caribbean)’s hacking at slop nightly. Yes, I will hold him accountable for that.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on. Did he luck into Wilson, Cain and Sandoval? Did he luck into signing Affedlt?

Other than Texeria or Dunn, what player would’ve vastly increased OBP with this team that they could’ve signed? How man runs would Dunn have let in playing anywhere but DH?

Or perhaps you’re one of the folks who think he should’ve traded Steve Klein’s old cap for Ian Kinsler?

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunn’s overall value is that of a pretty league average player. His defense really is terrible. Unfortunately, Renteria’s overall value is that of a replacement level player. I could throw Orlando Hudson out there, but I’m not going to pretend I knew he’d be the one out of Renteria/Orlando/Orlando that was available and would produce…

It’s not just about the last FA period, though. We’ve loaded up on Aaron Rowand and Bengie Molina type hackers through free agency over the years, and it doesn’t seem to be changing. We still value BA over OBP in any decision we make.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

disagree

it is not true that you cannot develop a farm system while paying the best player in the league $20M. Their payroll was $80M. The Giants performance in the Bonds years was essentially average + Barry Bonds. They spent $50-70M/year on an average supporting cast while essentially ignoring the farm system.

No, maybe you can argue that the Gints Brass wasn’t (isn’t) terrible in the aggregate. They made mistakes (lots of them). They fundamentally don’t (I believe) understand why OBP is more important than AVG. They have signed some players with decent OBPs, but in a random and haphazard fashion. Since AVG is a large component of OBP, if you aim for high AVG, you will sometimes back into a good player. They overrate veteran players. They overpay.

I will be kind and say the Giants mgt. is mediocre. They aren’t the pirates. They aren’t the royals. Actually, a good comparision would be the Orioles who back in the late 80s early 90s had a pretty good run, and then degenerated into veteran hell. But I think they vastly underestimated the luck they had in 15 years of Barry Bonds (credit for keeping him, although not much, it’s not like it takes a genius to realize he’s the best player in the league).

It’s not that they are to be blamed for signing free agents, it’s that they (usually) signed the wrong ones. And I thought swapping Kent for Durham/Alfonzo was a GOOD move at the time.

Mediocre doesn’t cut it. Good management OUT performs expectation, they don’t just throw money at the FA market and hope the jackpots more than cancel out the busts. Good managment has a plan. They make bold moves. They question conventional wisdom. The cut bait on their losses. They change their approach.

Sucking for 6 years, then drafting high to get good players is not good management. A monkey with checkbook could do that.

And yes, the team is 62-52. But it’s not a really a 90 win team. Not with the worse (EQA) or second worst (wOBA) in the majors. Now maybe the Garko/Sanchez band aid over the gaping wound that is the right side of the infield will be enough to squeak past the rockies… but I dunno.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Good management OUT performs expectation”

Think about it this way – obviously mistakes happen in baseball. I can forgive mistakes. Some guys just don’t work out. For the Giants, many don’t work out. How many players have we signed that exceeded expectations?

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If a monkey with a checkbook can do it, please explain K.C., Pittsburg, Baltimore (though they seem to have finally turned a corner)?

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“But a big reason for that was that when you are a winning team, you get lousy draft position, and the odds of finding good players via the draft drops drastically.”

This is only true to a point. If you’re willing to spend the money, you can still acquire talent throughout the draft ilke the Red Sox do. You sign foreign free agents, you sign guys who drop because of signability. The talent is there no matter where you’re picking – it might not be Strasburg or Wieters or Longoria, but there are still lots of players available to restock the farm system. Not only did we do a poor job of doing that (and of developing them once we picked them), we intentionally gave away draft picks because Sabean doesn’t understand the value of young players.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know if he did or didn’t. The MLB team was really up against payroll limits at the time. It was, if nothing else, a creative stroke. Hated it at the time, but I appreciate a different sort of thinking.

Did they do this with anyone but the Tucker signing? I can’t think of one off hand.

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tucker signing is all I’m aware of. It seems to me a small piece of a bigger puzzle that ignored every strategy that has proven successful in building a winning baseball team – from paying market value for players based on stats that matter (like OBP) to building through the farm and developing young players who’s production far outweighs their cost, we seemed to ignore what every other successful franchise emphasized. Fine, that’s in the past. The problem is, it doesn’t seem to be changing. We still go after Renteria, Sanchez, Garko, while ignoring an on base machine like Adam Dunn that would have cost us less money and less talent than those 3…

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do believe the big problem with Dunn was/is his defense. He’s really horrific, and Cain especially would’ve suffered (I am assuming he would’ve played LF). I don’t know how good he would be at 1B, but I’m thinking he ain’t too good there.

Me, too on the Tucker signing.

 BTW, it’s been a long time since I’ve read Moneyball, but wasn’t Beane talking about how OBP was being overvalued by the marketplace?

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball is pretty out of date at this point, for the time period it was talking about OBP was severely undervalued in the market place, but that has mostly been corrected. Dunn’s D is horrific, and I don’t think there’s any way we could play him in the OF, but 1B would have been a good choice – he’s better overall than Ishikawa/Garko and we’d still have Scott Barnes in our organization…

by Missing Barry on Aug 14, 2009 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

where is this great defense

of which you speak

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 13, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“How come people don’t understand that if the player don’t have the talent, telling him to take more pitches and get a higher OBP is not going to do much?”

I fully understand this point. I also understand that Brian Sabean has always made acquisitions that lack these basic skills, and has shown absolutely nothing that makes me think he has any idea how important OBP is.

“While I’m at it, both Roberts and Rowand had career OBP that were at or above the average OBP for players playing their positions. So did Edgardo Alfonzo and Ray Durham when we signed them. Moises Alou too. And I think Renteria was at or above too.”

Roberts was 35 when we signed him. Rowand was 30 when we signed him to a 5 year deal. Alfonzo was 29. Durham was 31. Alou was 38. Do you know what age a player is in his prime? 25-29 on average. A simple look at fangraphs or any other method of valuing players will show you Sabean had no idea how to properly value players, ESPECIALLY given how old all these guys were when we signed them. The contracts were generally bad. Durham worked out, I doubt any of the rest did. In one of the other posts someone made the point that Sabean, on average, has paid well over $8M per win on the FA market, despite the fact that he should only be paying $4.5-5M. You don’t see why someone criticizes him for this?

I’m critical because I’m scared of bringing Sabean back. We likely won’t make the playoffs this year, so while winning more than we lose is nice, we don’t have a chance to win it all. Going forward if we retain Sabean….ugh I don’t even want to think of the possibility.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to further expand on some points I make at various times in this thread, thanks to NeifiChicken for doing the work, but even excluding the Zito signing, Sabean has paid, on average, $8.03M per win on the FA market. How can anyone possibly defend that. Yes we needed to make signings. Yes free agents are overpaid. However, if we just paid the market rate for free agents, we would be a significantly better team.

“How come so many people have so much to complain about when the Giants are doing way better than anyone expected?”

Just because we expected another crappy Sabean built team doesn’t make this one good, necessarily. We had low expectations. We still don’t have a good chance to make the playoffs. I’m sorry, but I simply realize if we weren’t squandering money on the players we are, we could have gotten someone like Adamn Dunn for the same price as Renteria. If we had a decent GM at the helm, given how amazing Lincecum is and how well Sandoval has performed, we should be in the playoffs. But instead our GM pays a 60%+ premium for free agents. The worst part is because he set his own bar so low by being so bad at his job, people actually want him to come back for outperforming those low expectations.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, you mean like:
  • drafting Tim Lincecum
  • drafting Matt Cain
  • drafting Brian Wilson
  • drafting Sergio Romo
  • trading for Merkin Valdez
  • signing Jeremy Affeldt
  • signing Pablo Sandoval
  • drafting Madison Bumgarner
  • drafting Buster Posey
  • drafting Jonathan Sanchez
  • putting together a team that has way outperform everyone’s expectations, even mine, vaulting to having a good enough record in the majors to lead or be close to the lead in 4 out of the 6 divisions

Poor decisions like these?

I think Sabean has made a lot of good decisions. I like the team and farm system he has put together. If you want to focus only on the bad decisions, so be it, but if you are expecting perfection, you’re following the wrong sport. And, you know, the saying about glass houses…

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for articulating this argument so well. I’m becoming so tired of the “Sabean is an idiot” lines that run everywhere, while anything positive is either ignored or passed off as so obvious that any moran could’ve done it….just like Lincecum. Of course, it’s easy to ignore that 10 teams passed over him. Pablo should be in the MVP conversation (not winning it, but in the conversation), this team has a great shot at the Wild Card, and is set up for a run of excellence.

As to Renterria, it’s only a two year deal. The market got really screwy and Sabean should’ve waited, but still. It’s hardly the all crippling, franchise destroying, JP Raccardi-type contract that it’s protrayed to be here. Plus, who knows how much the bone spurs have hindered him this year. (And no, I don’t think they would show up on a phsychal).

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s hardly the all crippling, franchise destroying, JP Raccardi-type contract that it’s protrayed to be here.

Zito, Renteria, Aurilia, Roberts, Morris…….do I really need to go on or do you recognize a trend here?

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Aug 13, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zito: right (not like Wells though, at least we get some production)
Rent: 2 yrs 18 mil total. Not crippling
Aurilla- Minor league deal for cheap, Not Crippling
Roberts: No Excuse, but still cheap ~8 mil/year
Morris: Traded away, so doesn’t count, mistake was admitted

So please countinue on your trend

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

let's put it another way

list of current Giants under contract that you could not trade away for free:

Zito
Renteria
Aurillia
Rowand
Winn
Molina

Now, those last 2 are dicey… there is no (longer) any long term pain on them, so if someone was desperate, they might give up a 23-y.o. A-ball “live arm” for them.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that the Zito and Rowand contracts are hurting the team, and are untradable.

Winn’s contract wasn’t bad at all bad (3yr 24 mil) and Molina’s isn’t horrible (3yr 16 mil)
Aurilla 1yr 1mil contract is stupid b/c he shouldn’t be on this team, but he isn’t hurting the team finacially and the Rents contract is bad but it also doesn’t hurt the team.

The only truley bad contracts are Rowands and Zitos. The others I can take or leave, I cannot name one player whose contract is so bad that I regret the Giants ever got them (other than Roberts)

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not saying they were bad at the time

although Winn’s extension was somewhat unwarrented on a “rebuilding” team (see above) and I would never, under any circumstances sign a 33 y.o. Bengie Molina as a free agent for multiple years.

But RIGHT NOW, those contracts are basically worthless, which seems to imply that they were both signed for 1 year too many.

Not to mention the clusterfuckedness of signing Winn AND Roberts AND Rowand.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The allocation of resources leaves alot to be desired. I was trying to show oldrips that they are hardley crippling to a franchise.

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

for example bengie, winn and roberts contracts added up equal 56 mil, while the Wells contract will paye him 65 mill in a 3 year span with no production.

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But where are the good contracts to offset the bad ones? What good deals did we get in free agency, ever?

The problem I see is I can go through and justify the thinking behind almost all the individual contracts we gave veterans. At times, you need to pay someone to fill a hole. Renteria sucks, but it was only two years and we didn’t have a better option in house. LIke that, I can defend each contract. Look at Sabean’s free agent signings collectively, though, and you simply cannot defend them anymore. In a vacuum none are that bad, but collectively, that is one big pile of crap.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Molina, Grissom, Affeldt, Vizquel, Sanders, Cruz Jr. (until…well…we all know) off the top of my head.

I know, though. Sabean go lucky with those.

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aurilla- Minor league deal for cheap, Not Crippling

SF paid him $9 million over the last 3, non productive, seasons. You’d think that at the end of last year the team would say "phew, thank God we didn’t sign him for 3 seasons. No, they got him to re-up for another mil $.

Roberts: No Excuse, but still cheap ~8 mil/year
$18 million for 3 years of him was not cheap.

by seyheystretch on Aug 13, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree but those are not CRIPPLING contracts.

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Individually, no

But, as the Violent Femmes would say, add it up.

and damage is contextual. No one gives a crap if n overpaid Aurilia is sucking it up on a 90-loss team, because no really cares about the difference between 89 and 91 losses. 89 and 91 wins, however, are a much bigger deal, because those particular wins tend to be the difference between playing baseball and playing golf in October.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 13, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aurilia was actually pretty decent last year.

by Natto on Aug 13, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If by that you mean, he was worth $2.8M (.6 WAR) last year with a salary of $4.5M. His bat was worth only -2.1 runs. Keep in mind this was all while being platooned to get him favorable matchups (over 1/3 of his AB’s were against LHP)…

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

??!!
Thought you went to Lowell.

by seyheystretch on Aug 13, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He hit .283/.332/.413 which is more or less what Uribe is doing now. I’d take that over his current “production”.

by Natto on Aug 13, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“I think Sabean has made a lot of good decisions. I like the team and farm system he has put together. If you want to focus only on the bad decisions, so be it”

I want to focus on how many good decisions he’s made vs. how many bad decisions. Like the Bonds years, we’re a poor team with one player carrying us on his back right now. This is because at best we get a free agent who lives up to expectations. At worst he vastly underperforms. Each bad decision needs to have a good decision to counter it, and right now, Timmy is the only thing keeping this franchise afloat. Nobody Sabean signs outperforms their expectations. Sabean pays over $8M on the free agent market per win. That says a lot to me right there – that’s an average of the good and bad signings.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“drafting Madison Bumgarner”

Let’s rephrase that as “not drafting Jason Heyward”. :)

(This is only a joke, really, kind of)…

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The giants strategize and play the DL dance

It seems as if they are not bringing back Torres until Sept 1, or so I have read. I would like to see Velez, Torres, for a while in the one two spot. Speed kills. As far as the umping went for this series, it wasn’t just Darling it was the entire crew. The first game could have easily been a 4-4 game. Several giants rallies were killed by really bad umping calls being made just at the wrong time. It was the same call, where several giants were safe at first and called out, that came right back when a dodger was really out, in a key situation, and called safe. I did not like the choice of throwing another change-up to Ethier, after the previous one was up. I thought blow him away with a 97 mph fastball right over the corner. Nevertheless, the goat of the game Uribe, became the Hero. Which redeems my baseball spirit a bit. The umping was so bad the last 6 giants games, that it was just hard to watch. The giants had a meeting about being more patient at bat, and it seemed to work. But, Rowand did not seem to get the message.

by bradleybear on Aug 12, 2009 6:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

all this time, I never knew you were a doctor

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 12, 2009 6:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You don't have to be a doctor to question the medical staff

Allowing Frandsen to play on a strained achillies last spring, which he subsequently ruptured. Allowing Rowand to play through a rib injury most of last season (if you buy it as an excuse for his poor play, that is). Noah Lowry’s serious misdiagnosis. I’d probably be more concerned about those than the rash of minor injuries lately.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not a real doctor, I only play one on McCovey Chronicles.

So it doesn’t bother you seeing all these players sitting around injured when they could have been DLed and a useful player brought up? Plus then maybe they could have gotten healthy and not have the injury recur later? Or get healthy enough so that they don’t play poorly for the rest of the season? It’s been bothering me since Durham, but seeing Uribe and Rowand sitting and/or playing poorly after an injury, just reminded me of all that again.

Maybe I got it wrong, you are right, I’m no doctor, but maybe someone can explain to me why this seems to be a pattern with the Giants, why players end up missing so many games sitting on the bench when it appears that they would have been better off going on the DL and healing.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was railing against Rowand not going on the DL with a friend of mine, and he had a point I hadn’t thought of. With the offense being as bad as it is, perhaps one or two AB’s from Rowand is more valuable (in the team’s eyes) over the 7 games it takes to get healthy than it would be to have 15 games completely without him. I agree with you, but I believe the players have more to do with this than we think. Remember 2002 when Bonds, Lofton, and Sanders all had hamstring injuries and none of them went on the DL? Sabean was on his show with Barberi and Tolbert, and made quite a statement about how they were refusing to be disabled. Rowand seems like that type of guy to me.

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Rowand goes on the DL, who else is going to bounce weakly into double plays!?

THINK OF THE TEAM!

by xanthan on Aug 13, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember 2002 when Bonds, Lofton, and Sanders all had hamstring injuries and none of them went on the DL? Sabean was on his show with Barberi and Tolbert, and made quite a statement about how they were refusing to be disabled.

This is the problem, part CLXIV: Sabean values a tough gamery attitude more than on-field performance.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m actually surprised that David Eckstien hasn’t been a Giant.

by xanthan on Aug 13, 2009 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty sure it’s not for lack of trying.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Aug 13, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 13, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess that’s my question. Whos decision is it? Sabean seemed to indicate the players were refusing, and he was pissed about it. I phrased that poorly.

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure I agree with the OP

But using your logic, we probably couldn’t talk about much here at all…

by otis29 on Aug 13, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t realize this was OGC for a long time because the post is so short.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 12, 2009 6:49 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

still TL

still DNR

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...

by natteringnabob on Aug 12, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Booyah!

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did the bait and switch!
Short Post REEEAAAAAAALLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY LONG replys

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2009 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember, Darling is also the one who called Lincecum’s FAKE BALK last year and caused him to get the LOSS.
DIAF Darling.

Sir Alex Omar Hinshaw: It's not right if it's not left.

by The Enchanter on Aug 12, 2009 6:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

after this mess, I’d really like to know what the procedures are that rate/review umpires. I don’t know what disipline can be given out, but this whole crew should be keelhauled.

by tyrannoman on Aug 12, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

discipline: no more bong hits before games.

Sir Alex Omar Hinshaw: It's not right if it's not left.

by The Enchanter on Aug 12, 2009 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think discipline went downhill when they got rid of ex-Marine Sandy Alderson out of the front office. He was the one who didn’t fall the umpire’s bluff when they tendered their resignation to his office – he ran umpiring for a while – and accepted them selectively. I thought that was brilliant!!!

I was hoping that he might become Commissioner eventually, but it looks like Selig will be around for a while longer.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

+1

It was also too much like

looking out for the best intrests of the game
so we know exactly the chance of this current commish doing squat about it.

That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.

by daveinexile on Aug 13, 2009 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's right

That’s a pattern. Maybe he’s jealous that Lincecum is probably not much bigger than he is and yet he’s a star in the majors and he’s just an ump. Some of these umps are failed athletes.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a plausible scenario.

by xanthan on Aug 13, 2009 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Aug 13, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dr. Walton says....

Old people get injured more often

by ACgiant97 on Aug 12, 2009 8:31 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I know old people get hurt more often (unfortunately or fortunately, personal experience :^), but my problem is why does it seem like every time a Giants player get a nagging injury, he ends up sitting for 7-14 days when they say, initially, that it’s day to day? Why aren’t they recognizing that these are nagging injuries that aren’t really day to day, but longer term? And especially if they are older, why not just DL them, get it over with and healthy, and bring up somebody who could get valuable experience? Particularly since the Giants have not been all that competitive the past few years and this year is still a rebuilding year.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why does it have to be the trainers' fault?

It seems perfectly likely to me that the front office would decide they’d rather have a week of Juan Uribe than two weeks of Kevin Frandsen.

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Aug 12, 2009 8:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That’s one instance. Explain to me all of Durham’s ghost-DL trips, he was the one that really got my goat before. He would sit all those games out, get a PH, then sit out some more games. He never really got close to the 150 games he would get into when he was with the ChiSox, he rarely got into even 130 starts in a season, most seasons would see him getting into a dozen or so games as a DH, propping up his games played number but then you can see from his AB figure that he missed a significant amount of time.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Durham was a good enough hitter to have actual value off the bench, even if he couldn't play defense.

What I’m getting here is that your biggest problem with these endless day-to-day injuries is less that these injured vets are taking up a roster spot than that these injured vets are mediocre at best when healthy and down right awful when playing through injury, and you want to use their injury as an excuse to give (possibly) better youngsters an opportunity.

Not that I disagree with that position, I just think there’s a difference between Durham and the examples from the current roster.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But he had more value as a starting player

A lot more.

Plus, when they then had him PH, they risked having him tweak that hamstring again. And he would and that would sit him down again.

For an example on the current roster, with Renteria and Uribe with health problems, just DL Uribe and bring Frandsen up to do the uber-utility thing that Uribe is doing right now. Or better yet, DL Renteria and let Frandsen get some regular starts since Uribe and Renteria are both hampered by injury anyway. It was not like either of them were on fire with the bat while starting anyway.

Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.

"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 12, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s an example, not an instance. Who was going to start for Durham? The backup second base situation in the minors was pretty dire. And those pinch hitting examples are exactly my point – that this was a baseball decision. If they were really so desperate to put him on the DL, they would have put him on the damn DL and never pinch-hit with him. But they didn’t do that. Because they’d rather have Ray Durham for one week than Brian Dallimore for two.

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Aug 12, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I lean towards the other way here.

 I am not so much inclined to blame the trainers. They can’t force a guy to sit. They can’t make the manager, or Gm, DL these guys. The trainers can only recommend they sit or get DL’ed. The buck stops at Big Head’s and Sabean’s deck for me. It was a bit different a couple seasons ago when the organization didn’t even have replacement level players for most positions but that is becoming more an excuse and less of a fact now days.

That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.

by daveinexile on Aug 13, 2009 7:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Every team has injury issues and from listening to a few other team’s broadcasts it appears that the Giants injury issues are minor compared to some other teams like the Mets. Perhaps the Giants’ trainers do a better job of stretching and preventive measures so that our hammy problems are minor compared to what they would have been Purely speculation but what the heck – isn’t that what most of us do. :)

by APGiantsFan on Aug 13, 2009 10:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

false premise

Giants players have been unreasonably healthy this season

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 13, 2009 12:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

well, on my XBox I’ve lost Lincecum, Cain, Affedlt, and Wilson all to broken shins. No shit. I would think the folks at 2K sports would be a bit more creative.

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any Truth to the Rumor

that Gary Darling was the Dodger fan pissing on the Mays statue in 2006?

by tyrannoman on Aug 13, 2009 8:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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