Sabean: Should he stay or should he go now?
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 8, 2009 1:34 PM PDT
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Since we are at the midway point of the year, I thought it'd be interesting to take the group's temperature with regards to tire-kicker extraordinaire, GM Brian Sabean. As everyone knows, he is in the final year of his contract and I'm curious to know if the group favors his return or not. So far the team has exceed expectations (and statistical evidence) with their success, which may or may not continue.
Sabean has a long track record with the team, but let's take a quick review of the notable moves made this past off-season:
- Signed Jeremy Affeldt to a two-year, $8MM contract: His best move by far. Affeldt has been lights out pretty much all year.
-Signed Justin Miller to a minor league contract: Very solid move. Miller has been really good when needed to eat up innings (not often, I know)
-Signed Randy Johnson to a one-year, $8MM contract: I'd say this was a good signing as well. Struggled early but seemed to find a good groove before the injury. If he can come back healthy and pitch like he was before he got hurt this will be a solid move.
-Signed Edgar Renteria to a two-year, $18.5MM contract: A good idea executed horribly. Not sure if Sabean misread Renteria's remaining talent or the FA market, but either way this was a big mistake.
-Signed Bob Howry to a one-year, $2.75MM contract: So-so. Howry hasn't been the 8th inning guy that was expected but I don't think he's been as bad as some think. I think it has more to do with pretty much everyone in the bullpen being so good that Howry looks bad by comparison.
-Singed Juan Uribe to a minor league contract: This has to be viewed as a success as well. Very low risk move that has worked out. Would much rather have him as a bench guy instead of the starting 2B but don't think Frandsen will get a chance to take over the job full time. Not sure if that's on Bochy or Sabean.
-Signed Rich Aurilla to a minor league contract: He's done, unfortunately Sabean and the front office won't pull the plug. Signing wasn't bad but the fact that he made the team was and still is bad, which is Sabean's fault.
-Released Dave Roberts: A lot of us didn't think the team or Sabean would be willing to make this move but they did. Thank god.
The Giants have also had two strong draft classes (not counting this year's, too early to tell) that have helped replenish the farm system and he hasn't traded any of the prospects away for old guys (so far. I hope I don't jinx things before the trade deadline). The other big move I think deserves some consideration is Rowand's signing. This is tough to judge since he's been their 2nd best hitter this year but when it's all said and done I'd expect to be a bad but not terrible signing.
Caveats:
I do not blame him for Zito's contract. I will go to my grave believing that was Magowan's decision unless some evidence proves otherwise. Also, I don't think stuff such as the Michael Tucker signing should be considered. He hasn't done anything recently THAT stupid so it seems he's learned from his ways. Everything we discuss here could greatly change if he makes a huge trade at the deadline, but from all the chatter it seems it will be a quiet deadline.
So what does the group think? Any other factors that weren't discussed that you think should weigh in the decision? Do your feeling on the matter depend on how the team finishes the season?
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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He needs to stay. Also, even for those who think that he should go, I’m fairly certain he isn’t going anywhere. I’m almost certain he will be joining upper management upon his “retirement” from the GM position, when that comes who knows but he’s already been here so long I don’t forsee the Giants ever firing him. Especially for all the great work he did in the past.
I'm not ready to vote on this until after the trade deadline
I do think he’s done a better job over the last 1-2 years, and of all the moves you listed the only one that hasn’t worked well enough would be Renteria. But, it’s not a crippling contract and I thought it was a perfectly decent move at the time.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Me Two.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
How much blame does Sabean get for the organization’s hacktastic ways? It certainly seems to be an organizational philosophy and if he’s not the origin of it, he certainly does seem to buy into it heavily.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jul 8, 2009 2:03 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
re
Has Sabean ever acquired a player who could be classified as a having above average patience?
Durham, Snow, maybe Mohr, Santangelo are the only ones that come to mind.
yes, I forgot about him, but I wouldn’t say he was above average. He had an above average walk rate, but it seemed like he swung at a lot of pitches
especially 0-0 pitches. After the 1st pitch though, Alou was solid in terms of being selective.
Tucker’s PD wasn’t too bad either (perhpas not too high above average though), he just struck out way too much to notice he walked a decent amount.
I don’t think Sabean is oblivious to plate discipline, I just don’t think he values it properly, perhaps more out of some misplaced sense of pride. That’s my other problem with Sabean, he seems like he doesn’t have the proper temperament for leadership. I don’t want his finger on the button basically
Tucker’s PD wasn’t too bad either (perhpas not too high above average though), he just struck out way too much to notice he walked a decent amount.
Sounds like Fred Lewis
Brandon Crawford: Your SF Giants 2011 Opening Day starting SS!
Kent Burks
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
He had 100 walks in his season with us
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
If that doesn’t scream patience at the plate, I don’t know what does.
Granted, he also matched 100 Ks, so maybe he was a little TOO patient. I don’t know.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
He was a true 3 outcome player. I think also, he was what they used to call a one-pitch, one-speed hitter. Get that pitch at that speed and he could hit it out. Otherwise, it was simply of battle of getting to 4 balls before the pitcher could get to 3 strikes.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
CREDIT is going to the wrong person
John Barr is responsible for our recent string of successful amateur talent, Sabean deserves some credit for hiring and deferring to him, but not enough to keep his job.
Sabean is mainly responsible for the big league club and his moves there have by and large been poor. He completely misjudged the free agent market and pissed away money. With a little patience and a better sense of things like, um, the economy he could’ve spent very wisely this off-season.
I’m not saying “we could have had O-Dog for 3.5 mil!” because clearly the Dodgers are a more attractive scenario, but had we offered say 1 year, 6 million I think that extra money could’ve tipped those scales.
Renteria’s money speaks for itself (who were we bidding against?), Unit, Howry & Affeldt were good signings, but once again Sabes likely paid more than he had to. His past few signings have been Rowand, Zito, Dave Roberts, Aurilia (1st & 2nd time), Molina, Vizquel (1st, and 2nd time)
2 of those 8 can be classifed as success, 5 of them are failure, and 1 (Rowand) is pretty much a failure unless you put too much stock into his current performance.
In truth, the telltale reason Sabean needs to go happened in the ‘07 off-season where Sabean actually entertained the idea of trading Lincecum for Alex Rios. He didn’t go through with it, but he was clearly thinking about it, and right then and there he should’ve been relieved of his command.
He mishandles our young players (Nate, Burris, Bowker, Frandsen Linden, Sanchez, etc.) and does not succeed despite having a good amount of economic resources behind him.
Our recent drafts have been good (although I’d say a tad overrated) but as I said before, that is John Barr and his scouting staff. Sabean has less to do with those successes than you’d think. To me, the writing has been on the wall for a long time that Sabean needs to go. With the Giants resources, we have no excuses for not being a top 10 team every year, Sabean has been at the head of the ship for 12+ years and has really been exposed in recent years. Our success this year has been has not been because of his tenure, it’s despite his poor tenure that we have successful thusfar.
Lincecum for Rios was a feint to make the Rowand signing look better.
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
I am pretty sure that was "leaked" by the Jays front office. The Sabean ear never negotiates in the press. As such that was the Jays hoping to force a move they wanted.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
If you remember, it was actually Sabean that leaked this. He mentioned he had an intriguing offer for Lincecum. It was also mentioned that he was pretty much talked out of it by others in the organization. I think if he had pulled the trigger on that trade, he would have been fired this past offseason.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Bochy may have been gone, too. The Giants would probably have lost close to 100 games last year had Lincecum not been here.
Trying not to be a Sabean apologist but...
With regards to the drafts, I agree Barr and staff deserve a lot of credit. But, ultimately, Sabean does make the final decision. You said so yourself, he is prideful and stubborn and I doubt he’d defer the draft picks to anyone else. He also was out more on the road this year (not sure about last) so he has some input in terms of evaluating as well. Additionally, he showed way back when, when he was with the Yankees, he could build a farm system, so I think he has more than a minor influence on the draft.
I do agree that Sabean and his staff have not been the best at negotiating contracts. Not sure how the front office works but they have overpaid historically, as you stated Roberts, Renteria, Rowand (again, not putting Zito on him). This needs to be corrected and what I view as the front offices biggest weakness.
I agree that the young players could have been handled better, but I can’t believe that the movements have greatly effected their long term development. I think the ceiling for all those prospects, maybe except for Sanchez, was league average at best. Its not like he derailed a budding superstars development. And for Sanchez, say what you will about the rotation/bullpen/rotation mess, he was given a chance these past two years to focus on starting only and he blew it.
I can’t speak to the Lincecum for Rios thing. Nobody knows how serious those talks were. We’ve all heard things but we will never know what was in his mind. The ultimate result was not to trade Tim and thank god for that.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 8, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think that's necessarily true
Scouting director’s probably have the biggest sway in the draft room (with the exception of team’s like the A’s) especially if you have a SD as accomplished as Barr. Sabean has some influence with the top picks certainly, but I think Barr carries most of the weight.
I guess you could give Sabes credit for being willing to trust the man he put in place
Sabean is a former SD himself, I think it’s stupid to assume he has little influence on the draft. Especially when he’s been with this organization for so long. True, he often defers to his lieutenants but especially the past few years he definitely has taken a more active role in scouting and with the focus that has been placed on development and the draft I think it’s pretty naive to think that he hasn’t had much say in that area.
I don’t think that’s true Hobbes. As far as I can remember he’s always gone out and scouted players before the draft AND frequently has also scouted major league players before trading deadlines. I don’t have any hard evidence on that, but from listening to his regular shows on KNBR (“where are you calling from, Brian?”) and reading the Chron’s notebook, my impression has always been that he went out and eye balled players personally. I think a couple years ago on XM I heard him do an interview prior to the draft and he said his typical MO was ot get the short list from his scouting people and then go watch those guys himself, so he, the scouting directors, minor league PP guys and cross-checkers could all talk over the short-list and get to a consensus board. I don’t think he’s the guy who makes the final call, or necessarily even in the war room after the first pick, but he does like to scout for the potential top picks.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Oops. Reply fail. Meant to reply to your comment below about him NOT scouting potential draftees during the winning years. In short: I believe he did then, too.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Not sure how the front office works but they have overpaid historically, as you stated Roberts, Renteria, Rowand (again, not putting Zito on him).
Note the signings you mentioned are all post-Colletti. Ned was the one who negotiated contracts, and I recall he was pretty good at it. I can’t say what’s going on there now.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Ned isn’t really that good with contracts. Just look at some of his awful signings in LA.
It’s not like the Giants were making great contracts when he was here.
I can’t tell you what the contracts were like, but I do remember Ned having a good reputation for doing the contracts. I don’t know if he hands them off to someone else to do now that he’s the GM. But either way, he did them when he was with the Giants, and I don’t know who does them now. I think Bobby Evans works with Sabean on them now.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Here are the main things I think a GM should be based on
1) Organizational Philosiphy (Sabean: pitching, speed, defense…it’s not terrible) 6/10
2) Evaluation of outside professional personnel (Sabean: used to do this great, in recent years, it’s been quite poor) 3/10
3) Appropriation of funds within the organization (Sabean: diverting more funds into amateur talent…finally) 8/10
4) Spending of Free Agent dollars (Sabean: not Colletti bad, but quite bad) 2/10
5) Handling of young prospects within your system (Sabean: decent with pitchers, terrible with hitters) 5/10
6) Trading (Sabean: used to be quite shrewd in this matter, but his last 10 trades or so have been pretty bad) 4/10
7) Ability to find undervalued players on the open market (Sabean: he’s had some decent over the years, but really dropped the ball recently when we had the flexibility to actually take risks on guys like this) 6/10
8) Drafting (Sabean: as I’ve said, most of the drafts success comes from the SD and his scouts anyway, Sabean obviously has some input on the situation, but good drafts are not something you credit Sabean too heavily with. It is a factor, but this is too many people’s reason for keeping him, which IMO is a flawed on) 7/10
9) Ability to handle media (Sabean: it’s a tough call here. He is TERRIBLE with the media on one hand, but he is also good at generally keeping things from them, which deserves credit) 5/10
10) Ability to lead his staff and create unity to make decisions (Sabean: can’t really judge him here, although I’d bet he is very good at this)
11) Ability to communicate with team owner/president (Sabean: once again, can’t judge him here, but I’m sure he does well here. It’s pretty hard for a GM not to do well in this aspect, because if he didn’t, hed lose his job ASAP)
12) International amateur talent (this is sort’ve covered in my positive rating of him in “allocation of funds”, but I’ll give him points again here for the recent efforts…was slow to do it though) 8/10
13) Hiring of qualified manager to execute organization philosophy on the field (Sabean: he really seems to just buy into getting managers with name value and an ability to garner respect from their players) 5/10
14) Ability to communicate with fans (this is sort of covered in media, but this is a very important aspect that Sabean completely ignores) 2/10
15) Arbitration/service time (arb cases are usually handled by a different member of the FO, but still matter. Sabes gets credit by me from the Cain and Lowry extensions, but he generally handles service time quite poorly) 4/10
I left off the most important thing
16) an ability to predict future trends and important matters (Sabean: did predict the shift back towards defensive awareness, albeit for the wrong reasons. Completely midjudged this FA market) 4/10
overall
I rate him at around a 5/10 as a GM, which means to me he’s about average. Given that we are a top 10 market team, average doesn’t cut it for us. We need to strive to be elite
17) Kept decrepit Rich Aurillia off 2009 roster 0/10
I multiply all 17 scores together and get 0. I think that’s fair.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
I’d give Sabean 10 bonus points for having no patience with Ralph Barbieri.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
Yeah, but that’s probably just part of his overall “no patience” approach to hitting (discussed above).
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Sabean has been back at scouting the past couple of years for the guys they have been drafting in the first round/supplemental. Barr certainly should get a lot of credit, but Sabean’s background IS in scouting after all and this isn’t something he was doing back when the team was good. I think this should be mentioned.
Badly mismanaged young players
I would also add Valdez, but disagree with Nate. Nate really wasn’t ever jerked back and forth and never spent much time sitting on the bench. Same with Bowker – when he was up, he played. Though, unlike Schierholtz, he was called up a bit early.
as you stated yourself though, there were problems with Bowker and Nate.
Bowker:
a) called up too soon
b) had to learn new position at the big league level
c) now when he actually looks somewhat promising and we need a bat, he’s in AAA
Nate:
not as bad, but definitely took his sweetass time giving Nate his chance
I don’t put too much stock in Bowker having to learn 1B – he clearly started and declined after pitcherrs adjusted. I would tend to think that the initial. Bowker has had a great half season in a great hitters league. It isn’t hurting him at all to leave him in AAA. In fact, he may actually be learning to lay off bad pitches as pitchers become more wary of him.
As far as Nate goes, leaving him on the bench for a month isn’t at all unreasonable, considering how well lewis played the year before and Nate’s lack of outstanding minor league number. I think you can only really hurt young hitters by leaving them on the bench – or by atttempting to fundmentally change the type of hitter they are. [See Lewis and Torcato, Tony] Although, I do think Nate was promoted from the SAL to the CAL too soon. Maybe Nate would have learned to take some more pitches if he had stayed that whole year in the SAL and been pitched around some more.
Along those line, I wouldn’t have promoted Bumgarner or Crawford so fast. They shouldn’t be rushing those guys.
One day it’s fine, the next it’s black.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
If he goes there will be trouble, but if he stays it will be double.
by Whiteteaandpoptarts on Jul 8, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
all the good contract signings
don’t make up for the big trades he messed up on and the terrible signings
the only good thing he has done for these organization was sign Barry Bonds and up intil recently drafting pretty good players
hes probably ganna mess up on a trade this year and hopefully i eat my words
by Mannybeatsfranny on Jul 8, 2009 3:05 PM PDT reply actions
arguably he re-signed Bonds but that was a foregone conclusion anyway. he got a good deal, though!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 8, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
yo.
Chill on the ‘he doesn’t draft bit’. You’re seriously overplaying your hand here. The giants, like most MLB teams, draft in a consensus fashion. And for the top picks, the GM is almost always heavily involved—and Sabean has been in quite a number of such picks. So yes, Barr has been a very nice addition, but the credit goes to the whole.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
he’s part of it, and they weren’t all bad. Hitters were clearly a failure.
Some of them had clear budget constraints, and that’s an issue that has to be considered. But sure, some of the blame goes to him.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
He does get a fair share of blame for sure. But those drafts also produced Cain, pre-injury Foppert, Ainsworth and Lowry, Jerome Williams, Joe Nathan, Liriano (not drafted but signed), and I’m sure I’m missing some. So there was some good with the bad.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 8, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Proof that Sabean deserves to be fired
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20071206/ai_n21144284/
“Everybody sees the merits of both sides of the argument,” general manager Brian Sabean said. “That’s what makes it such a difficult decision.”
Although if you read further
Two high-ranking club sources said the Giants no longer considered outfielder Andruw Jones a viable alternative
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Jul 8, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
wow. one does admire you’re remarkable ability to know things you don’t know. You must win the lotto often, you lucky guesser you.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
-your
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
shit. really need to proof read.
—remarkable ability to know things that cannot be known
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
well, I was really joking about Shelly/Evans (it could’ve been Tidrow) more than anything, but the facts we DO KNOW are that Sabean spoke on public record stating he was considering trading Lincecum for Rios. What really needs to be said other than that?
You know GMs are not always 100% honest when speaking to the press. Just because he said it doesn’t make it true. He could have been blowing smoke the whole time, who can say.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 8, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think they would lie about potentially trading a franchise caliber player. I don’t see the incentive there
sure they would. It is a way to float a player to see whats out there, and to do so in a public manner so not only the GM’s of other teams hear of it.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
so why float Lincecum?
Especially when the message you are conveying to other GM’s is that you are willing to float Lincecum for Alex Rios caliber players.
as I recall, the Blue Jays made the offer. I don’t think Lincecum was floated out there. the problem was that Sabes let the deal linger in the press before coming out publicly and shooting it down. I also recall that he said that he rejected the offer right away or that it wasn’t a legit offer, but that was after the fact and I don’t know how much to believe it.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 8, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions
his direct quote was "Everybody sees the merits of both sides of the argument," general manager Brian Sabean said. "That’s what makes it such a difficult decision."
Even if he’s lying to the press for soem strategic reason, what message does that send to young Lincecum? Probably doesn’t help get talks rolling with buying out his arb years
It's a non-story because he didn't trade Lincecum
For all we know he could be gauging the market value on his starter who in 2007 was not the Cy Young Lincecum of present.
it’s his job to anticipate the type of player Lincecum would become. While I think we were all surprised on how quickly Timmy became great, I don’t think any of us didn’t think he could eventually become this great.
Sabean must have some idea of this, and I’m sure he did, but he clearly had a poor idea about the type of player Alex Rios is.
Yes, he ultimately didn’t trade him, but he should’ve never even had a public quote saying he considered it. He should have told Riccardi right away “that’s nowhere near enough” and responded as such to any media when/if it came up again
yes and no.
I get the logic in other instances when GM’s will say certain things to the press. Was there really any possible logic for the Rios-Lincecum thing?
You don’t see an incentive, and maybe there actually isn’t one, but it doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been lying.
One thing I always think about when it comes to this is, prior to any Sabean trade, did he ever comment about a trade that happened. He’s always kept it close to the vest, so for him to go on record about a potential deal before it was dead seemed out of character for sure.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 8, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
A lot. That could have been a number of things: he could have seriously meant it (and some speculated that if he was, it was concerns over lincecum being injury prone). It also could easily have been smoke screen, or a way to see if he could get very good offers.
And they didn’t make it.
It is tomfoolery to read what a GM states naively straightforward.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
Eh
He hasnt bothered me enough to want him gone, but its not like he;s doing a great job.
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
He’s not going anywhere, and it might be for the best. There’s no guarantee that the guy we’d get to replace him would be any better. Lots o’ crappy GMs out there.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Every Great Band Should Be Shot
Before they Make Their Combat Rock.
The Clash made Combat Rock, and Sabean has made plenty of stinkers. I will be happy when he’s gone, although I suppose he could be replaced with someone worse.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Combat Rock isn't that bad
It clearly is their worst album (if we’re not counting Cut the Crap), and I find “Rock the Casbah” annoying. However, “Straight to Hell” is among their finest work, and I like all the funk tracks too, especially “Overpowered by Funk.” In short, if that’s the worst they could do, they must have been pretty damn good.
As to the GM, I am ambivalent. Sabean hasn’t been good, but I don’t have any sense of who they would replace him with. And that terrifies me. Littlefield is out there somewhere.
I'm on the fence
So I write a whole big long comment and I accidentally delete it. Crap. Anywhere, he’s my thoughts on Sabean.
I’ve been in the Fire Sabean camp for some time, but recently I have liked him a little more, not just because the team has been better, but because it appears that the organization has an actual plan to build a winning club built around young players developed within our system and supplemented by short term free agent signings (and potential trades.) The problem is that I don’t know how much credit to give to Sabean for this plan, but there seem to have a been a clear dividing line between the Magowan and Duke Nuke ‘em eras.
But I don’t let Sabean off the hook for the Zito and Rowand deals. He clearly did not negotiate good contracts (even for those different economic climates) even if Magown was the driving forces behind those deals. Both deals seemed to be about getting away from the image of Bonds and as such were not baseball moves in the purest sense. Also, if he was against signing Zito, he didn’t explain why well enough to Magowan. Overall, he seems to be a poor negotiator.
But I like his more recent FA signings – Unit, Howry and Affeldt + the minor league deals (Uribe, Miller and Medders.) were all solid. Plus, while he clearly made a mistake re Renteria, at least it was just a 2 year deal.
He’s also made 2 managerial hires since he’s been here (again, I don’t know much of it was him or Magowan, but presumably hiring managers are within his duties.) I think both hires were HORRIBLE. Flippy was just awful and I can’t stand the Big Giant Head. I fear that Bochy will get way more credit than he deserves for the team’s turnaround this year. But I’d like to see what Sabean does here, too.
Lastly, regarding Sabean’s trades, he’s made some good ones back in the day, but I think the last good one was the Randy Winn trade. More importantly, though, it was trades he didn’t make (like getting rid of Schmidt and Durham in ’06) that are negatives on the balance sheet.
The bottom line for me is that he can make it or break it depending on how things play out the rest of the season, particularly on the trade front. It is also important for him to get long term deals done with Lincecum and Cain. If he does ok, I wouldn’t mind extending him for another year or maybe two, but nothing long term.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 8, 2009 4:17 PM PDT reply actions
I wasn't a fan of the Big Giant Head either
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jul 8, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I couldn't answer the poll
I think Sabean hasn’t been very good, and I’d like him to go. But I don’t have any sense of who would replace him, which makes this a “devil you know” kind of situation.
I guess if he doesn’t do anything stupid at the trade deadline it will be a sign that the new and improved Sabes of the past year or so is for real. OTOH, Villalona and Bumgarner for Freddy Sanchez and it’s torches and pitchforks time.
It seems like every time this question comes up, the people who think Sabean can’t do anythign right are a lot louder, but a lot fewer in numbers.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
I think you are absolutely right in this regard, speaking as one of the louder anti-Sabean people.
I’d also like to say it’s not as if I think Sabean is some idiot child asleep at the wheel. I think he’s adequate, but with our history, resources, and market adequate is not good enough. We should have a great GM, where there is really little to no debate at all if he’s qualified or not. I feel like Giants fans pidgeonhole ourselves into thinking we’re a middle market team, but that’s just not true. We’re not quite NY , BOS and LA, but we are right behind them and thus should be able to build a system of efficient perennial contention like BOS does. With the ideal GM, I don’t see why we can’t be the Red Sox of the NL West. To me, Sabean is not the GM for that task
I agree with you on every point, NeifiChicken. Sabean’s bad decisions outweigh his good ones. It’s past time for him to go. The Giants deserve better.
Sadly, we can’t guarantee that whoever might replace him would be better, so I understand the fear there, and the “devil we know” philosophy. However, you won’t get anybody better until you try. In the words of the late 20th century philosopher Michael Joseph Jackson, I’d say to Neukom: “Make that change.”
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Well he's been better lately
From 2003 to 2008 the team kept getting worse, and it seemed every off-season there was an ill-advised free agent signing, culminating with Zito and Rowand. Last season, though, Sabean didn’t do anything dumb at the trade deadline, and the young players started getting more playing time. This past offseason, there were some moderately bad signings (Howry and Renteria) but they weren’t obviously awful at the time (like the Zito and Rowand deals) and, more important, they were short term. Then, this season, the team has won more games than it’s lost.
So I think it should be no surprise that Sabean has fewer critics. He hasn’t done as much lately that he could be criticized for.
The thing I wonder about is, Why did this happen? It seems there really has been a shift to emphasizing the farm, developing young players, but was this Sabean’s idea, or did this come from Neukom? Or maybe that’s what Sabean wanted all along, but Magowan espoused a “win now” approach. Perhaps Sabean himself, after years of progressively greater failure with his old philosophy, decided to try to emulate successful models like the Marlins and Twins. I really would like to know.
within your response I think you raise a good point.
Because the team is winning now, Sabean clearly has more support, but people seem way too content with how things have gone.
The three biggest reasons we are winning are Lincecum, Cain, and Sandoval. All 3 were our farmhands under Sabean, so some credit does certainly need to be placed on his shoulders, but it’s hard for us to gauge how much influence Sabean had in getting any of them. On the purest of level’s, it’s his staff that he put together who got and developed them (well, Sandoval and Cain were developed at least, Lincecum was just selected) so he certainly gets credit automatically. Perhaps he was influential in selecting Cain or Lincecum and deserves even more credit, perhaps he had to get talked into it by Dick Tidrow. We just don’t know.
On the other hand here are some decisions Sabean has made that are more directly tied to his decision making process for this club:
-Aaron Rowand
-Barry Zito
-Jeremy Affeldt
-Rich Aurilia
-Entering ’09 with Ishikawa as the 1B
-Entering ’09 with Burris as the 2B
-Edgar Renteria
-Bengie Molina
-Randy Johnson
-Bob Howry
-Medders
-Miller
Some of those are good calls, some clearly aren’t. Nonetheless, that’s nearly 60 million dollars (about 3/4 of our payroll) worth of players right there that Sabean has allocated to fill 1B, 2B, SS, C, SP, SP, SU, RP, RP, LR, BN. Does anyone believe that this collective group is worth 60 million per year (more than a number of ML franchises spend on their 25-man)? Was there really any doubt that handing the right side of the infield over to Burris and Ishikawa was a poor idea?
How much better off would be if we were even to get anything above replacement level on our right side?
Sabean didn’t prod and tweak a poor team at every little space he could to make it a winner, he kept it at the status quo and is benefitting from the greatness of Tim Linecum and Sandoval coupled with a whole of luck for many other guys on our staff
Hippocratic oath
“First, do no harm.” Now maybe Sabean should not get credit for not doing anything too stupid for the last year. Maybe I’ve just been so soured by the Trade That Shall Not Be Named and the Zito and Rowand signings that I’ve accepted a pitifully low standard of performance. But Sabean is certainly not the only GM in history who, in trying to improve his team, actually makes it worse. (Look at how many trades hurt both teams.) So I do give Sabean credit for at least not actively hurting anything.
I would disagree a bit with the Burriss/Ishikawa point. I think there was some reason before the season to think that Ishikawa might be a replacement-level or slightly better 1B, given his defense. I actually still think there’s reason to believe that. Still, I agree that a backup plan would have been nice. Perhaps if we’re charitable we’d say Aurilia was the backup plan. It’s difficult to see, though, what a better backup plan might have been, given the pupu platter that was the free-agent market this past winter. Dunn, maybe? Would the glove negate the dingerz? I’m inclined to give Sabean the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Burriss, OTOH, cannot be defended. Nothing in his minor league career indicated that there was any chance that he might be adequate offensively to play 2B in the majors. (Indeed, there was reason to doubt that he could be adequate offensively at SS.) At least if they’d gone with Frandsen it would have been defensible. In retrospect the correct decision would have been to sign Orlando Hudson and hope Burriss could make a serviceable SS, a path that was advocated by some of the McCoven during the winter.
Russell Branyan would’ve been a decent idea, and I’m not just saying that because he exploded in SEA. I have no illusion that he is THAT good
Russell Branyan had two hot months to begin the season. Thus far in June/July he’s hitting .265 and .179 respectively. I highly doubt he will finish on the plus side of .300 when he’s a career .237 hitter.
I hate to play the part of the apologist when I’m indifferent, but some of this is irrational.You said it yourself, it’s hard for us to gauge how much influence Sabean has in anything so why fault him for all the errors and devalue all the positives as staff decisions. You have to give him some credit for promoting Lincecum/Sandoval/Cain when he did.
Zito makes a third of that 60 million list you have there. Wasn’t it widely publicized that he was a McGowan signing? Of course you can blame Sabean for going along with it, but if the former holds true then why the need hold him solely accountable? As far as IshiBurriss. Ishi is slightly above average. If you want to look at this from a money standpoint, he’s saving us 3 million. Burriss is terrible but if he pulls off Sanchez then it’s a wash.
how is Ishikawa above average?
He is above REPLACEMENT, but there is a big difference bietween average and replacement. Problem is, most of that value (if you’re looking at fangraphs) is tied to his glove, which can’t be taken at complete face value. Yes, he seems like an above average defender, but don’t take that 450 inning sample size to mean too much. In the 260 innings prior to this year UZR rated him as below average.
The truth is he probably lies somewhere in between.
As for promoting Cain, well, to me that was too early. If he’d waited a few more months (we were losing anyway) we could have had another year of Cain control, which I would prefer right now
Why are you regressing a first year player down while making the case for a player whose shown nothing prior to his 10th season?
I’m not regressing his bat, just his glove. 450 innings is really not a reliable enough sample size to be able to be certain Ishi’s glove is as good as it says it is.
I do think it is a good glove, but the jury is still out. He sits at 0.7 WAR, but that is almost entirely due to his glove since his bat is below replacement level. Even if he keeps improving a bit with the bat, he’s still going to hover around replacement level, whereas Branyan actually has a number of successful pro seasons with the bat throughout his career, this is just his first year where he’s been handed an everyday job.
Even if his glvoe does prove to be as good as his 09 UZR states, that’s still not acceptable out of a 1st basemen
I don’t think you can really say we’d have another year of Cain control if he’d come up in June ‘06, because he’s no longer (and hasn’t for a long time) been controlled by the six-year rules, but rather by a long-term contract that was negotiated. He’s bound to use for the terms and length of that contract. Had he come up in 6/06 we may or may not have seen enough of him to write that same contract, or a different one. It’s hard to say at this point, just as we can’t say whether it would have been possible to extend that contract out further and buy out some of his FA years. But regardless, he is currently a player playing under a long-term contract, so his arb clock and other issues of controllability have long since been superfluous.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
one more word:
Bocock.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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Two more words:
Epic fail.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Junk him
MLB organizations cannot afford to employ people who do not understand how baseball offense works. Sabean, it is quite clear, doesn’t have a clue. He’s stuck in the late 1980s.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I'm shocked people are defending this guy
Sabean has put together the same team he put together for the last 5 years.
Now this one time he actually got lucky and has some players over performing and everyone has quickly forgotten all the fails.
This years Giants still have the same holes they have had the last few years- and think how good this team could be with a gm who had filled those obvious holes.
???
Who on this team is over performing?
If anything I would argue more than a few are underperforming.
Overperformers
Cain
Rowand
Sandoval (debatable, but likely)
Affeldt
Medders
Sadowski
Underperformers
Renteria (maybe, he also could just be done)
Sanchez
Unit (he was due an injury or two though)
Winn (possibly)
Lewis (a tad)
How are Cain or Rowand over performing? They are performing to their career norms. Cain’s numbers are the same as they have always been peripheral wise. He’s just actually gotten run support this year. Strand rate is high sure, but that will balance out by the end of the year.
Rowand is performing the SAME way he did last year in the first half. Around .300 with 8-9 HR’s and average defense in CF. Sandoval has been hitting the same way he did all of last year with more power, which is expected of a young player of his talent level. Affeldt was good last year in Cincy, he’s around the same this year, maybe slightly better. Medders sure. Sadowski only has 3 appearances so far.
Renteria definitely. Even if he’s declining, when he’s given rest he performs a lot better. He’s been hampered by a hamstring injury for a lot of the year too. Sanchez obviously. Johnson yes. Winn yes. His splits have never been this bad from the right side, even if it’s a SSS. Lewis eh idk. Anyone who’s been playing 2b = underperforming.
Strand rate is high sure, but that will balance out by the end of the year.
Isn’t that the definition of regressing? When his strand rate goes down, his runs go up, his innings pitched go down. Pretty simple.
Rowand is performing the SAME way he did last year in the first half. Around .300 with 8-9 HR’s and average defense in CF.
So it’s likely we get the same second half performance as well then, correct?
Sandoval has been hitting the same way he did all of last year with more power, which is expected of a young player of his talent level.
Sandoval could be the real deal, but it’s still hard for me to believe he can be THIS amazing. Not knocking the guy, he’s just exceeded any expectation I could possibly have, it’s hard for me to think he will keep doing it, but hey, maybe he does.
Affeldt was good last year in Cincy, he’s around the same this year, maybe slightly better.
Affeldt is the man. Even with regression he will still be very good. He’s just gotten results like he’s the best reliever in baseball, which is not true. His peripherals don’t suggest he deserves that low 1.00’s ERA. He’ll still be a great reliever, but so far he’s been an EXCELLENT one, which won’t keep up
Unless we can steal Larry Beinfest from Florida (which I don’t see happening) I don’t want to make a move. Not that it matters because Sabean isn’t going anywhere.
Let's have this convo later
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
anyone who made the joe nathan trade needed to be fired a long time ago.
That trade led to a chain reaction of bad move necessitating more bad moves, etc.
Although I would set Sabean on fire if it meant that Kim Ng would be our new GM.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 9, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions
along these lines.
For me it as all about the Big Head. For a veteran centered team that produces he is a good fit. For calming a circus environment he is a good fit. For a club trying to integrate under 30 position players that have yet to sign a free agent contract the man’s style it is poison. A GM (or a fan) can’t even trust him to use a veteran utility player properly.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
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