The Case Against Trading For A Bat
by allfrank on Jul 3, 2009 6:50 PM PDT
68 comments
We all want to win, we all want to go to the playoffs. But it seems to me this is not the year to pull out the stops and make major trades in an effort to get to the playoffs.
I think the Giants have shown vision - a plan - over the past 3/4 years and it is starting to pay dividends - even if a little early. The fact that we are winning here in '09 should not lead us to go for broke this year. In fact, in my opinion, we have so many unanswered questions, we should continue to give our young players experience and evaluate them - and, in that context, try to get to the playoffs - ie without any trades. I think, as we look ahead to '10, '11, '12, it is important to see which of our many near prospects can be productive MLB players. Bringing in a "Bat" only takes away ABs for guys like Ishi, Schierholtz, Lewis, Frandsen, Downs, Bowker. I would rather clear space to get these guys as much playing time as possible over the next three months, which will allow us to make judgments about 1b, 2b, LF, RF. As an aside, I think we will be every bit as competitive with these guys playing as we are likely to be with whoever we are likely to end up with in trade. This prepares us much more for the coming off season as we will have a much better idea which positions we have covered and we will still be in possession of our prospects (trading chips) and cash.
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What about a bag of balls?
We can never have enough balls.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jul 3, 2009 7:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No way am I in favor of trading Ace TBS for Adrian Gonzalez and Mat Latos!
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jul 3, 2009 9:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
RYAN SADOWSKI FOR ADRIAN GONZALES AND JAKE PEEVEE
HE’S YOUNG AND NEVER GIVES UP ANY RUNS. THE PADRES WOULD JUMP AT THIS!! GIT R DUN GIANTZ BRASZ. (or something like that)
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jul 4, 2009 5:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
It’s a rare thing to be in the playoffs.
The Giants should do everything in their power to win now.
As much as I want to see Bowker and Ishikawa progress, if they don’t do it soon, then I have no problem with the Giants upgrading their offense through trades (obviously good trades is what I desire).
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 3, 2009 10:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I don't think it's that rare to make the playoffs.
A quarter of the NL makes the postseason every year, and the Giants have an above average payroll, so they should probably make it at a rate closer to one season in three. I also think the the surest way to postseason success is quantity of appearances. The Giants seem to be positioned to make a run over the next 4 years in which they either make or challenge for a postseason spot every season. I don’t think it’s wise to compromise that goal for the sake of one season.
We can really go in circles about this indefinitely (and we have), but it ultimately comes down to the specifics of the trade. For the right player, no one in the system is untouchable. For the wrong player, I wouldn’t even give up Bocock.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jul 3, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s greater than one-in-four once you take into account that the Pirates will never ever make the playoff.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Jul 3, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with almost everything you say except the part about giving up Bocock. Especially as Bocock is clogging up a space on the 40-man, I would give up Bocock for almost anything. Except Neifi Perez. Or Shea Hillenbrand. Ok, maybe there are “wrong players” but it’s close.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 3, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The wrong player would take up a 40-man roster space, produce nothing, and cost to much to simply release.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jul 3, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but it’s Bocock!
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 4, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GUYS LETS PLAY THE KIDS
OOOH WILDCARD (SHINY THING DISTRACTING MY EYES) LETS TRADE THE KIDS
WTF FIRE SABEAN HE NEVER KEEPS THE KIDS
FIRE BOCHY HE NEVER PLAYS THE KIDS
by jctGamer on Jul 4, 2009 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends how good the bat is. I like Ishikawa, I think he is improving, and with his defense, he’s a pretty good player right now (early season struggles notwithstanding). If you can bring in a Fielder or Gonzalez (which is very unlikely), you still probably do it; if the “upgrade” is Shea Hillenbrand, then DO NOT WANT.
Of course, BOWKERMANIA is like getting two or three bats, so in that sense you’re right.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 3, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you can get a 100-110 OPS+ bat at second though, I think that’s a trade you have to make.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 3, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This. I really don’t like Uribe at 2b ugh.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 4, 2009 3:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. You really have to. At this point, the evaluation period is done for our second basemen (or will never happen, if you’re talking about Frandsen). A league-average hitter at second would be worth so much to this team that you have to make the move.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd base is the only spot I feel good about a veteran upgrade rental player taking the lion’s share of the play time the rest of the way. I feel this way because:
1. Burriss is not ready to take that spot any time soon.
2. Downs is not ready to take that spot any time soon.
3. Frandsen is obviously a plague carrier and a leper in the eyes of management. Thus he will not be able to take 2nd any time soon. Besides if Frandsen has a MLB future it probably is as a utility guy.
4. Once Uribe’s bat cools down things are going to get real ugly. Besides which who is doing to rest REnteria if Uribe is a t 2nd?
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
by daveinexile on Jul 4, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's already cooling
Uribe is 3-for-23 in the last week and 7-for-35 in the last 2.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jul 4, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3-for-23 in the last week and 7-for-35 in the last 2
Which means he was 4 for 12 the week before last…… that doesn’t really support your case.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 5, 2009 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop criticizing the Giants
the only thing more effective than game-by-game personnel decisions is week by week metrics!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jul 5, 2009 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly and I think there are definitely some guys out there who will be available and will serve as upgrades. Given that our 2B as a team have hit for a .251 wOBA this season, plus a sparkling -5.1 UZR, anything from getting a great player (Sanchez) to getting a pretty okay player (Kennedy) would make a big difference.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 4, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh 100% (not giving up Bumgarner)
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 4, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
by daveinexile on Jul 4, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bats can have rabies.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jul 3, 2009 11:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
As Flem just said
This is a World Series pitching staff. If the G-men have a chance to get Lincecum, Cain and Johnson into a 5 or 7 game series then they have a very good shot at making serious noise. And isn’t that the whole point of the whole thing? That being said, with the way the giants have been playing I don’t think we have a realistic chance of significant upgrades via trade. Ishi looks like Snow 2.0, which is fine by me. I think Nate is a great player to have…as a 4th outfielder. Uribe looks like a major leaguer, at least not a black hole at 2nd. Ideally we could get a legit bopper in the corner OF or at 1st, but as it stands the options look to only marginally improve the Giants. Not to mention we could just give Bowkermania a shot.
Long post short, stay the course and reevaluate in 3 weeks.
by Viva Jon Miller on Jul 3, 2009 11:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ishi might look like JT Snow 2.0 but he really isn’t, not yet anyway. If a real upgrade at first becomes available, the Giants shouldn’t let him get in the way of considering it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 3, 2009 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of which....
Dan Uggla just put up a pretty good June offensively (for a second baseman anyway).
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Jul 3, 2009 11:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
do want
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 3, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He currently is 3.9 batting and -7.9 fielding.
I guess his offense could come around, but D is not likely to improve. I know the Yankees aren’t selling, but Cano would be nice.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pirates are selling and I still think Freddy Sanchez would be nice
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 4, 2009 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Freddy Sanchez. Please make this trade and stop screwing around with the Scott Hairston rumors. I want to see Nate and TI playing everyday at least through the deadline.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jul 4, 2009 5:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES PLEASE!
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bring in the other sanchez
back in my day we wanted to be like magic larry now these days all you guys talk about is try to be like mike or becoming the next lebanon james
by big beaner on Jul 4, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
League average 2B if available. Anything else is lipstick on a pig.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 3, 2009 11:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Scott Fucking Hairston rumor...
With less than a month before the trading deadline, the Giants’ search for another hitter, according to one major league executive, has focused on three first basemen: Washington’s Nick Johnson(notes), Baltimore’s Aubrey Huff(notes) and Pittsburgh’s Adam LaRoche(notes).
ADVERTISEMENT
They’ve also spoken to San Diego about a deal that would send starter Jonathan Sanchez(notes) to the Padres for outfielder Scott Hairston(notes).
by jctGamer on Jul 4, 2009 12:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
At least that would guarantee a sweep of the Padres.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 1:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
He’ll figure out some way to beat the Giants one way or the other. This franchise’s history is filled with guys who killed them as an opponent, then sucked after they were acquired (see: Finley, Steve & Portugal, Mark).
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 4, 2009 1:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said above, I want the upgrade to be at second base. This is a clear position where an upgrade would be a no brainer. TI is starting to hit homeruns, and why would you replace an outfielder hitting .320, although I know many fans are concerned with his over aggressiveness at the plate. If you can get an elite player that’s a clear upgrade, fine, but otherwise Sabean should be looking at second base only, where pretty much any average second baseman would be an upgrade. Ask San Diego if they would trade Nate Schierholtz for Scott Hairston. They would make that trade in a second, and isn’t like you’re trading Sanchez AND Nate for Hairston if you bench Nate after you trade for Hairston?
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jul 4, 2009 5:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, why are we focusing on first base? I do like Nick Johnson, but I could really do without the other two. However, TI is okay, not good, not even average, but okay. I can live with TI for the rest of the season. Second base has been an absolute black hole of suck. If Sabes is going to call Pittsburgh, the conversation needs to begin and end with Freddy Sanchez. He’s a 4-win player at second and the Giants’ second-sackers are (or, at least, were) on pace for a minus-two win season. Think about that. I would trade anyone outside of the big four to get him.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I still might think about Alderson.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
I wonder if we could get the Pirates to eat Zito’s salary, ala Morris. Just a pipe-dream…
Maybe start the package with Sosa.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sosa, Crawford and fungible outfield/pitcher?
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do'nt know if I like throwing in Crawford
He projects to be our SS of the future, and we really have no depth at that position. Who knows, Maybe J. Sanchez alone could do it, or I’d throw Merkin or Lewis in.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. I was just throwing a middle infielder against the wall because it would make sense for the Bucs to be asking for a decent middle infield prospect in trade.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I just don’t want to create another hole by trading Crawford.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would cry if we traded Crawford
Brandon Crawford: Your SF Giants 2011 Opening Day starting SS!
by Azmanz on Jul 4, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Crawford is the SS of the future. He is in AA hitting .260/.303/.356 right now.
You can’t think that a guy of Freddy Sanchez’s caliber will be available – I know, even from the Pirates – for a package of leftover guys you just want to get rid of. I don’t think it will take Alderson, but it’s going to have to be a decent package.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 4, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d build a package around Sanchez for him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 4, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crawford is our only decent SS in the system right now.
I would offer a decent package, I just don’t want to include the one decent SS prospect we have in that deal.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ehire Adrianza is very highly rated within the organization. His season, as a 19 yr old, has done nothing but to reinforce their thoughts
by wilriv21 on Jul 4, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
He did have an OPS of 1.292 at Fresno last year, I’ll give him that.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude make alot of errors.
I realize he’s young, but still.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jul 4, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still, he’s not a sure thing. It’s just as likely that he never really makes it and the team has to sign a FA or trade to get a SS. If you can get a real deal 2B in a trade then go ahead.
Sure, I would prefer to trade Velez, Bocock, and Steve Holm for Sanchez, but if they want Crawford, I’m not going to let that be a deal-breaker.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 4, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOLINEUP!
CF Rowand
LF Winn
3B Sandoval
C Molina
RF Schierholtz
SS Renteria
1B Ishikawa
2B Uribe
P Lincecum
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 4, 2009 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why on earth would you have Nate behind Molina? Nate can get hits, but Molina won’t go very far on singles. Nate is much better suited for 2nd in the order.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Big Head really hates the Gaints.
I mean seriously both Nate & Molinia are free swingers. Put the Squatting Gnome Catcher Statue behind the fresh legged youn’ un’. It is minor miracle we don’t lead the league in GiDp’s.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
by daveinexile on Jul 4, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For Nate to GIDP, Bengie would have to get on base. This does not happen with regularity.
Osiris, lord of the dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
by neurofarm on Jul 4, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love the snark!
Well he does get on first 18% of the time he steps to the plate. ( H- 2b-3b-hr+BB+HBP/Ab+BB+HBP+SF) So basically “Ball in play Nate” is in sever risk of a fielder’s choice or GiDP almost every 5th P.A. That wouldn’t have even the slightest, tiny, itty bitty chance to suppress his numbers or anything. I wonder if there is hand formulia for figureing how often Molinia is on for the #6 and #7 spots as well?
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
by daveinexile on Jul 5, 2009 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Schierholtz batting cleanup worked yesterday, I'd keep him there.
Also Winn has been getting hits at the 2-spot and I’d rather not mess with him.
Status: So pissed that the Giants sold my wall of Ks to Johnsonville Sausages, that I'm boycotting purchasing anything at the park, or patronizing their sponsors.
by GiantBrass on Jul 4, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah. I would be fine with that.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
by daveinexile on Jul 4, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I don’t wanna move Winn either. Just sayin Nate is likely better the higher up the lineup he is.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jul 4, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy is dumb.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 4, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is pretty much the standard lineup these days. You add a decent 2B to it and it’s not terrible.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 4, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Hairston played 2B. in 2004. for 88 games.
<.<
by jctGamer on Jul 4, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shut your face!
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jul 4, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I learned to accept, and sometimes love, Baker, Reggie Smith and Oral then Magalia the Gorilla would be has hard. It will not be easy but could be doable.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Fuggen Rox! You might want to try beating The Bums more than once in 10 games. Try it. You might find you like it.
by daveinexile on Jul 5, 2009 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
winn a second half player
has been and should be again this year. Don’t give up on the dude!
by bradleybear on Jul 4, 2009 9:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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