Giants acquire Ryan Garko
by travisam on Jul 27, 2009 6:28 PM PDT
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A small step in the right direction
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Jul 27, 2009 6:33 PM PDT reply actions
I hope Barnes is the better player in the package. Maybe the PTBNL is someone like Brock Bond?
by Squire_Boone on Jul 27, 2009 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
NO!!!
MY SON!!!
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott "Aaron" Barnes.
We’ll take you out to the score and get you a new son, a better son
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
I was gonna say.
If you go to Scores and end up with a new son, you did something very right and very wrong.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
does that mean you get Garko now?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 27, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions
In which case Garko would want to refuse.
Or not…
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Jul 28, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
The kind of move I was hoping for.
Improve the team enough to stay in the race, but not hurt the future.
A decent 2nd baseman to push Uribe into the utility role and I’ll be happy.
I think he meant that if the team were to NOW add a second baseman, on top of Garko, he’d be happy.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jul 27, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Rental?
Or does he have a few more years before free agency?
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 27, 2009 6:40 PM PDT reply actions
KNBR says it’s for Scott Barnes. I’m a Stanford guy so I’m predisposed to like this trade, but I have to say that seems kinda steep. Definitely an upgrade over Travis, though, I’d say.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jul 27, 2009 6:40 PM PDT reply actions
Dave Flemming is psyched!
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
ugh…. Garko? Really? He better sit on the bench against righties
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 27, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Fuck, I didn’t even look at his splits. He has a career .768 OPS against RHP. We traded for a 1B who can only hit lefties. Fantastic.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Not sure what the problem with splits is given that we know his total production (wOBA). Unless you expect him to see a disproportionate amount of RHP’s relative to what he was seeing before?
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Because he's going to be no better than Ishikawa against righties?
Why are we giving up a decent prospect for a lefty hitting 1B? That doesn’t make any fucking sense.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
But his overall production is much better than Ishikawa (offensively). Are you concerned our lineup is too geared to hit lefties? I just don’t see the problem with splits given his overall production. I get the argument that the marginal value he provides us overall over Ishikawa isn’t worth Barnes, I just don’t see a role for RH/LH splits.
by Missing Barry on Jul 28, 2009 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Ishikawa has a .743 against righties and he’s left handed.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow. That’s awful.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Is it bad that I see a .768 OPS and think, “Hey, that’s not too bad.”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Ehhhhh I’m iffy about this trade. Barnes has dominated this year and is still young. I have a bad feeling that Garko will be the 2009 version of Shea Hillenbrand
Giants Cove: You'll be a better person for reading
Eh...
Garko is younger than Hillenbrand was…
And will have more years with the Giants.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 27, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
In Hillenbrand’s case, more years would not have been a good thing.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
What happens to Ishikawa now?
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Jul 27, 2009 6:46 PM PDT reply actions
What about his mothers side?
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Jul 27, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions
He gets a full time gig on Dragon Ball Z.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
It’s okay, he can get a part in the Avatar: the Last Airbender movi… Oh wait.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 27, 2009 11:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s okay, he can get a part in the Avatar: the Last Airbender movi… Oh wait.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 27, 2009 11:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Pretty good deal
Under control till 2012 and Garko already becomes one of our best power hitters on the team
As a corner outfielder and 1b man, I hope Ishi still gets lots of playing time with Garko getting starts in the OF….Ishi’s defense cant be ignored and he hasn’t been playing that poorly…Perhaps Pumpkinhead can now move Molina out of the cleanup spot…That alone would make this trade worth it
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Jul 27, 2009 6:49 PM PDT reply actions
thats good news then
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
The big question. Is Ryan Garko good enough in Bochy’s mind to move Bengie out of the cleanup spot?
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
The big question. IsRyan Garko good enough in Bochy’s mindV-Mart coming later to move Bengie out of the cleanup spot?
FTFY
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
Bochy just said in the post game that he thought Garko would hit 5th or 6th
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
GAHHHHHHH! Fucking boulderskull.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Thoughts?
I think it’s a good move, Barnes seems like a fair price for a couple of years of Ryan Garko. He has position versatility and he probably is now the 2nd best hitter we have after Pablo. Should be a decent complimentary piece in the lineup to have over the next few years who will be affordable.
I like it
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
we can only dream
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I Am Thinking Likely.
We don’t need to cut Richie immediately as Manny Burriss can simply be put on the 60 Day DL to make 40 man roster space for Garko and Guzman can simply be optioned back to Fresno to make room for Garko on the 25 man roster. However, Richie’s days are numbered as Joe Martinez’s 30 days to rehap is almost up and he will have to rejoin the 40 man roster soon.
by giantsrainman on Jul 27, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think it's fair price
I really liked Barnes’ upside. Garko barely hits well enough to play first base.
8:46pm: MLB.com’s Anthony Castovince says there is no player to named in the deal. It’s Garko for Barnes, straight up.
How good a prospect is he supposed to be?
52-46 - Giants Series Record: 17-10-4, 13-2 at home
Adopted Giant: Daryl "Dealio" Maday - 3.66 ERA, .275 BAA, crappy 1.66 K/BB ratio in Norwich. OK.
thought he was the third best pitching prospect in the system A-ball on April 1st
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Jul 27, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Really SSS for the OF, he’s done well at 1st this year, but in the past has been below average defensively…
I’d hope he could pick it a little bit around the bag, he’s a former catcher isn’t he?
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions
He's probably still as shitty as he was last year
400 innings is barely a sample size
Ok, fair deal. Barnes I liked – better than some of the AA/AAA talent which I’d hope they’d traded instead – but for 3 years (maybe 4 – the ABs in 2006 look low) of Garko a straight up trade is actually pretty much right on.
Cleveland now doesn’t have to worry about the arbitration years, so I’m sure it’s why Shapiro didn’t insist upon pulling teeth since it’s an effective salary dump too.
+1 to confidence in Sabean. They’ve got to get some of the AAAA talent off the 40 man though – this is a mess compounding.
they should DFA half the grizzlies roster
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Appears I was right on the arb bit – from Cleveland.com, “The Indians, going into next season, considered Garko a luxury they could not afford. Eligible for arbitration, Garko would have made an estimated $2 million to $2.5 million.” I’m happy to see them spend $2.5 on a guy entering the peak of his career with upside rather than $5M on a vet.
Now if you want to make a legit criticism, I didn’t realize Marte was DFA’d in spring training and coulda been had for free….
…but Marte is a K machine and the Tribe couldn’t afford to keep him in the front of the line to the majors forever. They gave him enough chances and the DFA was a good call… no team in their right mind should have picked him up this spring, either, ESPECIALLY NOT THE GIANTS!!!
Just wait until he hits his first rut in the majors. It will be painful to watch, but the Indians at least now have the benefit of giving him some ABs with nothing on the line this year.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Jul 27, 2009 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yea I agree. Giants have pitching to burn. Sabean did well on this one, at least on paper. First even trade Giants have pulled off in quite awhile. Barnes could be a MLB starter, he could crash and burn. At least with Garko we have MLB proven hitter who we have under control for sveral years at a relatively cheap price.
And we still have our prized prospects!
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
Stats
Career .283 hitter
Career .355 OBP
About 20 HR/year in Cleveland, which is a pitcher’s park = 15ish at big Phone
Gets HBP a ton – 15-20 times a year, among league leaders
52-46 - Giants Series Record: 17-10-4, 13-2 at home
Adopted Giant: Daryl "Dealio" Maday - 3.66 ERA, .275 BAA, crappy 1.66 K/BB ratio in Norwich. OK.
NEW TEAM STRATEGY!
52-46 - Giants Series Record: 17-10-4, 13-2 at home
Adopted Giant: Daryl "Dealio" Maday - 3.66 ERA, .275 BAA, crappy 1.66 K/BB ratio in Norwich. OK.
better call up Frandsen asap
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Park Factors:
ATT: 102
Jacobs: 102
don’t know much about Garkos power, LF or RF but similar park factors
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
will hit more 2Bs and fewer HRs
like, you know, everybody else.
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Jul 27, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions
it looks like most of his HR are RF, RCF
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
try all seasons
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions
22/30 at Progressive to LF/LCF
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
that should say lf/lcf
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
More stats
He’s 28 years old (1/2/1981), 6’2", 225 lb.
2009: .285/.382/.464/.826 >> BB%=7.6 >> K%=15.3 >> 1 HR every 23.6 ABs
Career: .283/.355/.450/.805 >> BB%=7.4 >> K%=17 >> 1 HR every 29 ABs
Career Fielding % = .993 >> so he appears sure-handed but don’t know his range
He had a terrible 2008 season – only slugging .404 with 14 HRs in 144 games – but he’s bounced back so far in 2009.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
well he adds some needed RHH power and a little bit of versatility in the OF from the right side and all that, I like the trade
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
DonnieGarko
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Jul 27, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Is there a rhinoceros gar?
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Alligator Gar
They say you're a pitcher; you sure aren't much of a dresser.
by CystedTwister on Jul 28, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Not bad
Didn’t give up alot and got a pretty good first basemen. I like Ishikawa but he wasn’t getting the job done.
Garko + Guzman = Aurilia DFA?
I mean, how many right handed hitting first basemen does one team need? Especially if one of them is hitting like Aurilia has?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
Kawakami tweets that Sabean says “could be at least one more trade coming involving a Giants minor leaguer.”
Garko’s tires must have responded well to kicking
by VidaWantsYourCar on Jul 27, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm, interesting. My brain says Scutaro, but my heart says Sanchez
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 27, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Scutaro would be a great pick up.
I believe he’s a type A after the season
I am not pleased.
Still in despair.
BRING BACK MARMOL!
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
like it
straight up for barnes is a fair deal. i don’t mind putting him in lf, we put freddie there and garko is more of an offensive threat, imo. i can see bochy starting ishi against righties, while garko mans left. it gives us options.
by Do_the_research on Jul 27, 2009 7:19 PM PDT reply actions
and by the way...
i am beginning to realize, by reading the posts, that most giants fans will never be satisfied! lol… come on people, have faith
by Do_the_research on Jul 27, 2009 7:21 PM PDT reply actions
i was totally expecting it to sail under or over his glove...FAILez style
Uncle Sabes...How much longer til we get there?
like the say, San Francisco likes whine and cheese
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
that phrase is reserved for ’9er fans only… We are legitimately in pain.
by KrazyKrabMeat on Jul 27, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Eh
Its an improvement, but I really like Barnes; that’s a reasonably high price to pay for a league-average hitter who’s going to get expensive. Would prefer NIck Johnson, but as a platoon partner, hard to complain.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
He should only get expensive if he succeeds, so I won’t mind rewarding him. Salaries for league-average players are going to keep spiraling down in the next couple of years – so the arb comps will be much more reasonable. Just look at what above-average players had like Hudson, Abreu, and Dunn had to accept on the FA market last offseason.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
HOLY SHIT
He’s been my quasi-white whale all season!
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
Solid deal...
I liked Barnes, but we picked up a guy who will be able to help for a few years at a position that we don’t have minor league depth.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
agreed
Dave Cameron from fangraphs isn’t thrilled with the deal from the giants POV, but it makes some amount of sense to me. I always saw barnes as more of a reliever, anyway.
VOTE SANDOVAL
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
Not great, but not bad
Not a HR, but at least a single. I hate to give up Barnes because he’s a lefty that can get Ks and doesn’t hand out BBs – not too many of those in the low minors. He’ll probably end up a decent SP 3 years down the road for Cleveland, but we’re so stacked at SP in our farm system right now that he probably would have had a hard time even making it as our 5th starter. If Garko can just hit to his career level for the next 3 years this will be a successful trade.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think given
what was available….this is a solid trade. Look at the alternatives for right handed young power hitters. Willingham could have been a nice pick up, but the fact that Garko is still relatively young, and under team control for thee more years….I actually like this trade. Props Sabean.
And Barnes is a good lefty but where does he stand on our depth chart for starting pitchers? Be quite a few years before we would see him in SF.
Skinny cooks?
I don't trust em.
Hey, great mind, it would also be great if we still have a shot at Willingham. I wouldn’t mind seeing those 2 guys hitting after Panda at 4 and 5, and manning 1B and LF. Sabes did say that he’s got 1 more trade in the works – hopefully it’s Sanchez or Willingham and they cost no more than 3 tier 2/3 prospects.
I just thought of one other positive aspect of this trade. I no longer have to worry that Sabes was going after Nick Johnson to play 1B!
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
that
is my thought exactly! Now I would like to see Freddy Sanchez in black and orange..and I think we got ourself a ballclub.
Skinny cooks?
I don't trust em.
I like it
I never liked Barnes and although Garko isn’t exactly Prince Fielder, he’s a definite upgrade over Ishikawa at first base offensively.
They only thing I’ve gotten from this trade is that I get way too attached to minor league players.
Felicitations, malefactors! I am endeavoring to misappropriate the formulary for the preparation of affordable comestibles. Who will join me!?
I’ll bet they leave you because you’re too clingy
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 27, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions
You shouldn't call them so much. Makes them feel wierd.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
The more I think about this, the more I'm not a fan
Ryan Garko is a slightly better version of Jesus Guzman – I’d rather give him the AB’s. If we’re trading Barnes, Freddy Sanchez is a far more significant marginal improvement. Its a panicky move because of the inability to give a young player 40 AB’s.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
On paper
But we honestly don’t know what Guzman will ever do in the majors. He has been through two AL teams who could use a DH. His defense is probably the worst I have ever seen. Sure, kid can mash at the minor level, but so did JR Phillips. I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a chance, I like the kid, but I think a proven Major League hitter is definitely the safer way to go..
Too bad Garko wasn’t a 2nd baseman.
Skinny cooks?
I don't trust em.
I think you forget that Jesus Guzman cannot play defense to save his life, while Garko is not absolutely terrible in the field, he is fooling UZR so far and has not been awful in the past
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
Garko’s had one solid year, a down year and this bounce back year at the ML level. He’s also adequate at 1st base. Guzman hasn’t done anything at the ML level and has horrible defense. Not saying he can’t turn into something good but they aren’t really the same. And if Guzman does show he can play at the ML level Garko has position flexibility.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions
This was a stupid fucking deal and just highlights, once again, that the organization knows little about replacement level, defense, and basic valuation.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Not a huge fan, either. I need to think about it a little more but do the Giants really need to trade for the left-hand side of a 1B platoon?
It’s not like Garko’s a terrible player, he just isn’t much of an upgrade and is about to get more expensive than he’s worth. To give up Barnes is just asinine. I stand by my trade proposal for acquiring Garko, a firm handshake.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
90 RBI’s last year, shiny shiny!
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Eh Barnes is a solid prospect, but I’m not going to cry over it. The Giants only relative trading strength is pitching, teams aren’t going to be able to get our very top guys, so naturally we’ll have to give up someone like Barnes who shows promise but who is expendable in the grand scheme of things. Garko may be about to get more expensive but it’s not like he’s going to be really expensive either. He’s a better buy than some of the mediocre or over priced aging veterans at 1st that will be available via FA.
And to the date, the Giants have a pretty good track record with trading away pitching prospects. Not a single one of them has ever amounted to anything since Keith Foulke.
Garko’s just not worth paying a prospect to acquire. He’s a marginal upgrade at best.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Well obviously, that has to happen.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
I’m just hoping he goes Randy Winn on us and goes way above his career numbers for the next 2 months or so to propel us to the playoffs.
While that would be nice for the team, I worry that it would just encourage this behavior in the future.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Well seeing as how he’s got 3 1/2 years of control left you have to trade a prospect TO acquire him. And a marginal upgrade can make a bigger difference for the Giants than it would for most teams. Their offense is that putrid.
Plus it gives them a cheap stopgap for the next few years at 1st. And if a better solution comes along then they have a nice bat off the bench or to platoon with. It’s not the end of the world as you make it out to be. Garko is a decent hitter, and Scott Barnes is a prospect in High A ball. It’s not like they traded a big time prospect away.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 27, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don’t have to be a big time prospect to be valuable. This is a lot of potential value given away for a marginal upgrade.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
True, but seeing as the Giants have drastically needed to upgrade their offense for the past 3 years and keep failing to do so, this is a move that needs to be made. Marginal upgrade or not. And the only way the Giants are really going to be able to make such improvements is by trading away some of their stockpiles of pitching talent. All of which is VALUABLE, but they have to give a little of it up if they ever hope to improve what has been an awful offense.
They could have done a LOT worse, and likely aren’t going to do much better than Garko for the time being.
You ever hear of these guys?
Francisco Liriano and Joe Nathan. They’ll be amused to hear that they’ve never amounted to anything.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
You can’t refuse to trade any pitchers on the off-chance they’ll develop into studs. Yes, Barnes is a good prospect, but was by no means considered untouchable. In theory, the plan has always been to eventually start trading off some of our surplus of pitching prospects for youngish major league hitters. It had to start some time.
VOTE SANDOVAL
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
Welcome to the Internet, where fans over value their prospects! Don’t fight it.
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
what future did Barnes have with the Giants? Not even counting the contract they’re stuck with, (Zito) they have Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgarner, Alderson, and I’m assuming they sign Wheeler. Throw in Pucetas, Martinez, and an occasional Randy Johnson type FA signing, and Barnes was worth “a small upgrade.”
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
People said the same thing when AinsFoppWilliams were around. Just because we don’t have depth doesn’t mean we should throw players away.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Liriano really hasn’t amounted to much. 3 total wins (by WAR) other than his one breakout year.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Not quite. 120 IP, ~4 WAR. Lincecum was better than that last year.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Just to put that in perspective, Johan put up 7.3 WAR that year, which was his lowest total from 2004-2006. I guess Liriano’s pace was slightly better than Johan’s, considering he pitched a little more than half the innings…but do you want to credit him for pace, that’s kind of weak…
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
nah
ROWAND I LOVE YOU SON!
old signature:
"apparently the adoptive parent of the 2nd best hitter on the team.
/shrug"
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jul 27, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Liriano was striking out like a hundred per nine in his one really really good year
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 28, 2009 12:01 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
And now he has less velocity and can’t throw his slider because his arm basically fell off that year. But yes that year was ridiculous. My fantasy team thanks him.
Still, I’d much rather trade a Barnes than a Liriano. If they had been wrong about Liriano’s injury risk — and teams make mistakes about that stuff all the time — the trade would have no competition as the worst of all time.
actually, I can think of one worse. When Omar Minaya was GM of the Expos, he traded Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
LOLmar Minaya looked mighty uncomfortable talking to the press today after firing the assistant GM
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 27, 2009 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s going to look even more uncomfortable next week when the Wilpons fire him.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Did this really happen?
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 27, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Horrid trade for Texas
Padres Receive: 1B Adrian Gonzalez, SP Chris Young and OF Terrmel Sledge
Rangers Receive: C Billy Killian (minors), RP Akinori Otsuka and SP Adam Eaton
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
That is trade of epically awful proportions for the Rangers. The team should be relegated to the minor leagues for doing something like that!
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 28, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Worst of all time
Nah, there are too many where the trade loser got a stiff who never delivered again. Unfortunately, the names “Frank Duffy” and “Sam McDowell” are two of them.
Perry for McDowell was the first Giants trade to break my heart, and it’s still the worst, even in retrospect. Future double Cy winner for a stiff.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Jul 28, 2009 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I am glad that he over performed, now other execs thin all our pitchers are awesome!!
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Its the Giants
they don’t understand the concept. 10 bucks says they looked at the RBI numbers only; this team braintrust is not much of one.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
I’m not seeing it at all. I think this was a good trade. Garko has solid BB% and K%, supposedly should improve with a move to the NL, isn’t a bad fielder, and is a decent hitter. I don’t think Ishikawa is worth as much as his WAR this year, he does play good D but I’m not ready to believe his +20 UZR/150, and his bat will likely regress. Garko could add a win to the Giants for the rest of 2009, and we didn’t give up that much for it (and have him under control for multiple more years).
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Is he? UZR/150 at 1B for his career is only -4. Below average, sure, but not bad.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Garko has solid BB%
No he doesn’t.
isn’t a bad fielder
Yes, he is.
Garko could add a win to the Giants for the rest of 2009, and we didn’t give up that much for it (and have him under control for multiple more years).
No way he could add a win. He’s been worth half a win more than Ishi so far this year and his fielding is just as likely to regress as Ishikawa’s. Barnes was a lot to give up. Guys who could be potential 3’s are worth a lot of money. Mediocre first basemen aren’t.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
What’s league average BB%? I’m under the impression 8% isn’t bad, maybe I’m just delusional from watching Sabean constructed teams for too long? I’m interested in the fielding issue, is he a terrible fielder? I don’t watch the Indians obviously, the numbers I’m looking at aren’t all that bad. I’m also hardly ready to call Barnes a great commodity considering he’s in A-ball and isn’t regarded the way Alderson/Bumgarner are.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Around 9% is league average. He’s not a terrible fielder, he’s just below average. But, that means he’s a firstbasemen with a light bat and glove. Not so great.
I’m also hardly ready to call Barnes a great commodity considering he’s in A-ball and isn’t regarded the way Alderson/Bumgarner are.
There are plenty of guys who have valuable careers even if they aren’t highly regarded. Not every major leaguer was a top prospect.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
“There are plenty of guys who have valuable careers even if they aren’t highly regarded. Not every major leaguer was a top prospect.”
And there are many, many more that don’t become anything, especially when you’re talking about guys that aren’t first round, top of the organizational prospect chart guys like Bumgarner/Alderson. I just don’t see Barnes as much of a price, do you think he’s more of a B or C level prospect? Has BA said anything about him since the season started?
I also don’t agree Garko’s bat is “light”. It’s not going to be a big bat for a 1B, obviously, but he’s putting up an .826 OPS in the AL this year with solid peripherals that don’t suggest regression – what kind of improvement can we expect in his move to the NL? Supposedly the research has suggested hitters in the AL/NL are similar talent levels, but pitchers in the AL are better, though I haven’t looked into this research at all, myself.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I also don’t agree Garko’s bat is "light".
Well, it is light. Average 1B:
NL: 279/.368/.476
AL: .271/.354/.487
Garko: .283/.355/.450
So, he’s below average. Not to mention he has a career .768 OPS against righties. We just traded for a 1B who can only hit lefties. It’s funny that Cleveland did this exact same thing a few years ago with Seattle when they traded Eduardo Perez for Asdrubal Cabrera.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Depends on the supposed AL/NL adjustment. My guess is it’s a hair under average, which doesn’t constitute “light” by my definition. I’d call Travis Ishikawa’s bat “light”. :)
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m guessing he’ll put up NL average numbers based on league adjustment. And his OPS against righties is better than Ishi’s against righties.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
And his defense is much worse.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
UZR/150: 19.8 for Ish, 12.1 for Garko this year.
SSS obviously, but not that much worse. And all metrics on Ish are going to have SSS issues anyway. Also, Ish’s rating is twice as good as qualifiers over the past 3 years. He’s good but he’s not twice as good as anyone else in the league.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Garko’s more likely a -5 defender based on his career numbers, and defense doesn’t suddenly get better at 28, it peaks much younger (I want to say around 22). Beyond that, Ishi has always had fantastic scouting reports on his defense. Is he as good as his numbers so far? Not likely, but he’s probably a +5-10 fielder, which puts the difference between the two at 10-15 runs, a not insignificant amount since Garko just isn’t that good of a hitter.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Why can’t defense improve? Guy was a catcher in college and has played multiple positions. If you put him at 1st for an extended period I think improvement isn’t impossible or unrealistic.
RARP this year is 8.7 for Garko, -3.9 for Ish. Your defensive numbers seem to be coming from your educated guesses instead of actual data. The numbers this year show they aren’t that different when it comes to defense while I’m 100% confident Garko is a much better offensive player. I’ll take that improvement for sure. Maybe after watching Garko play everyday I’ll say his defense is terrible but I’m not ready to do that right now.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Because it doesn’t? It’s a skill that peaks very early. Anyways, he’s been playing firstbase since 2004, how much time does he need to adjust to the easiest position on the field? Plus, the scouting reports on him are terrible.
Your defensive numbers seem to be coming from your educated guesses instead of actual data.
Sort of, I’m basing it off of Garko’s career numbers, Ishikawa’s scouting reports and fantastic numbers so far in both the majors and minors.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Really don’t get how you don’t think defense can improve. His UZR/150 improved from 2007 to 2008 and 2008 to 2009. Seems like he is improving. I’m sure there are a number of players who’ve improved over the years.
Also, I’m going to go ahead and say estimating runs saved from scouting reports isn’t really an exact science.
Basically it comes down to me being very confident in the numbers available that Garko is a major upgrade offensively and not very confident in defensive metrics, especially when you’re dealing with SSS for one of the guys.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Albert Pujols started out as a terrible first baseman – a position he switched to in the majors – and is now a Gold Glover. Just saying. I don’t think Garko will improve very much defensively, but it can happen.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
The problem is you’re talking about year to year changes in defensive metrics, which are incredibly variable to begin with, so it’s just as likely you’re looking at issues of variance rather than actual changes in ability/performance. Defense is still a hard thing to judge.
by Missing Barry on Jul 28, 2009 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Are you using BP's RARP?
B/c if you are, you should cease.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I was but
Fangraphs has wRAA for Garko at 7.5 to Ishi -2.2, so in the same ballpark.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
OH
I thought you were using RARP for offense+defense…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
The hardball times looked at interleague stats a few years ago to compare the talent level between the leagues.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-the-al-really-superior/
Yep, that’s what I was referring to, but the articles are long so I haven’t actually read them yet, and I don’t believe things until I read them (which is why I include the word “supposedly”). Especially since a lot of fans make conclusions on their own the data doesn’t support… :)
by Missing Barry on Jul 28, 2009 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions
All I know
is that it’s too damn hot here in Portland. What the hell? this is the Freaking Northwest!!!
Skinny cooks?
I don't trust em.
Yeah, it was caught. There’s a game thread where everyone is talking about the game.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Whenever the game is going on, it’ll be at the top of the main page, but you can get to it here.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
No problem. The game threads are a lot of fun, they can get kinda crazy.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Wow, the Fan Scouting Report has Garko as one of the worst fielders in the game. He and Ishikawa are a natural platoon, that’s for sure.
The bat is pretty damn good, though. This will make the team a bit more watchable.
Which for the Giants upgrades to great when you consider some of the shit hitters in this lineup.
Hopefully we can get Willingham too. Both him and Garko would be serviceable compliments to Pablo until we can get better players.
I just don’t see a clear upgrade between Ishikawa and Garko over the rest of the season. How much did the Giants improve themselves here? .25 wins? .5 wins?
What about over the next few years? I think we got ourselves a few more wins all the while giving up someone who probably didnt have much of a future here
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
We could have gotten a lot more for Barnes than Garko, and if we couldn’t we should have just held onto him. Garko just isn’t that good and he isn’t likely to get better.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
I dunno. Barnes has maybe a 10-20 percent chance to be the next Noah Lowry. That’s a nice prospect to have in the system, but I’m not too broken up about losing him.
I agree in that regard. I don’t see replacing Ishikawa as being a great idea, when all the available replacements via trade are guys who can’t play defense. And while Ishikawa isn’t great offensively, he still has similar power to whoever we can acquire.
It really sucks Garko doesn’t catch anymore, he’d be a nice upgrade over Bengie.
It’s like the Epicgenio experiment. But not.
Still in despair.
BRING BACK MARMOL!
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Jul 27, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Ishikawa is a replacement level player aside from his D. Do you really think he’s a +20 UZR/150 guy, because that’s the only thing keeping his total value above replacement level.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Not, not really. I find it hard to think that anyone is a +20 run fielder but it’s possible he’s a +10 run fielder. I don’t hate-hate this deal but it doesn’t do much for me right now. Like I said above, I need to think about it some.
Yeah that’s basically my feeling on Ishikawa’s D, too. I’d be pretty confident calling him a +10 guy.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions
My standards have been corrupted by rooting for the Giants.
He’ll rake in the NL. Remember, Joba Chamberlain would win the Cy Young in the NL.
AND in the AL. Joba Chamberlain would win so much that he alone would win the WS, not the team he’s playing for. He would also in the process find a cure for every known disease, and then create his own diseases because he will run out of problems to solve. Joba Chamberlain will also survive the Apocalypse.
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott "Aaron" Barnes.
The only thing I like about this is the fact that he doesn’t strike out a lot and walks a decent-ish amount
People, we finally got a patient fucking hitter who didn’t cost much and is under team control for a while, he is a nice building block for the future and better than in house options
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
I agree, and he didn’t cost much to get.
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Garko is not a building block. He’s a complimentary piece at best. And I wouldn’t call him a patient hitter.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
not a building block under ideal circumstances, but it’s not like we had another player to put at 1b over the next 3 years… next decent option is… Villalona if he pans out?
Barnes might be valuable, but with all the pitching this team has, he wasn’t going to get that chance to see if he’s Noah Lowry 2.0.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
Well who else is going to man first the next three years? I dont think free agency is the right move, we have no one in our system who is ready now, I’d rather keep MAdBum, Posey, Anvil, and Tim2 then trade for Gonzalez or V-mart, I dont see what other move is superior to this
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
Plus I’d rather have Garko than have us shell out 40 mill to a 38 year old Carlos Delgado over 3 years.
why can't we do neither?
Why are we required to make at least one bad move?
this bad move doesn't require
running an over aged and payed vet out everyday just b/c we pay like a star. I garko sucks we bench him
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 27, 2009 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions
You’d rather have Ishikawa than give up a mediocre prospect for a mediocre bat?
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
Is this a trick question? If we already have a mediocre player, then why should we give up a prospect to get another mediocre player who plays the same position?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
travis ishikawa is not just a mediocre player, he is a waaaaaay below mediocre player, his BABIP is like .342, and he is hitting .269, that will go down as will defense, which will make him pretty bad, I think Garko is a lot better than that and can be a 2 win player for the next three years while Travis might be sub 1 win
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
The difference between Ishikawa and Garko is maybe 1 win over a full season. Maybe. I love how you’re only regressing Ishikawa’s numbers and not Garko’s and then comparing them.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Garko’s BABIP this year is .303. League average last year was .313 so it looks like Garko’s numbers have a chance to improve.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
BABIP doesn’t work that way for hitters, he has a .315 career BABIP and that’s probably the best estimate to use. That different isn’t really significant.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Point still stands, there’s possible room for improvement for Garko. I don’t think anyone will say Ish at .342 is sustainable.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
If anyone has room to improve, it’s Ishikawa. We have a pretty good idea of what Garko is and he’s likely on the other side of his peak.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
I think we have a pretty damn good idea of what is Ishikawa is too
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 28, 2009 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I didnt regress Garko’s numbers because from his career it doesn’t look like he will seriously regress, maybe in the field. The difference between the two is Garko is a proven above average hitter, and Ishikawa is not. Ishi is playing way over his head. Is he really the best fielding first baseman in the game, and twice as good as every other player? Can he really keep up a .342 BABIP and sustain offensive value, I think he is due for a serious regression.
On Garko though his peripherals look sustainable, he will continue to produce at about this level, now in the field he might go down, but probably not by a whole lot, and UZR can be wonky with these SSS, last year Ish was below average in very few games so it all is very strange.
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
Garko’s defense at 1B has been 10-15 runs better than his previous performances, I’d say there’s some room for pretty serious regression there.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
His bat is below average for an MLB player, he plays the least most valuable position on the field that requires the biggest bat. He’s not mediocre if he continues to be 60% better than the next best fielder at 1B, who this year going by UZR/150 happens to be Ryan Garko. :)
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Holy smokes, I don’t hate this. I mean, I don’t know if it’s a good move, but it doesn’t make me throw up in my mouth.
Proud member of the Adopt-a-Giant program (Aaron Rowand)
Willingham for me
For me Willingham > Garko
Willingham = 1 career HR, per 22 ABs
Garko = per 27 ABs
[context Rowand = 32]
I think Barnes should have netted a better haul than Garko – if I was a Nats fan, I’d be kind of disappointed to not to have netted Barnes and maybe a smaller piece for Willingham……
I’d like that too. Doesn’t mean that trade was ever a possibility but let’s act like it was anyway.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I really really didn’t see the hype surrounding Donnie Darko. I was very disappointed
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 28, 2009 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I saw it before I was hyped up about it, and I enjoyed it, kind of.
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
that’s cool, your hate is like poision. it works. don’t ever change
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
My hate is like poisson.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jul 28, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
mega man 3...
had a level boss named spark man. lets make that into his nickname somehow…donnie darko doesnt get nerdy enough for this group, methinks
Les Plack = more chicks
my lead in dingerz.exe is shrinking...
by Headhunter Rollins on Jul 27, 2009 8:22 PM PDT reply actions
I like line drive hitters in AT&T, period. But the more I think about it, I actually do like the timing of the control as well.
Villalona is at least a couple years away at very, very best (and probably more), so a “nice” or “good” RH bat at that position under team control for a few years isn’t a bad move for that price. (I’d almost argue he could be the stopgap at C next year too, but his defense back there was apparently so bad that reconverting him would be suicidal.)
Ishikawa shouldn’t be terribly concerned either. He’ll still be seeing a lot of lefties in later innings on his normal off days, and it pretty much means they’ve settled on him for another year at the minimum.
Could they have done better for what they gave up? Maybe, but if you had made this trade for Nick Johnson I’d be throwing something at the wall, and apparently the Nats are asking for the moon and the stars for everyone right now.
Like it
I trust offensive metrics WAY more than defensive metrics at this point in their development stage. I’m sure Ishi is a better 1b than Garko but I’m not sure how much better he is (Fangraphs he’s more than twice as good as anyone else in baseball. I find that hard to believe). I KNOW Garko’s a much better hitter (VORP of 10.7 to 0.1). I’ll take the known over the unsure at this point.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 8:38 PM PDT reply actions
With the bat Garko should be worth at least a win more than Ishikawa. So the question is (and it seems a very difficult question to me) how much of a difference will their fielding make?
by Missing Barry on Jul 27, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
With 3 strike out/fly ball pitchers in the rotation (4 if Johnson comes back) I willing to sacrifice defense for the bat at this point.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 27, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Stop complaining
This trade is fine, and did it dawn on anyone that not every great player in the minors becomes a good major league player? Garko is a big upgrade offensively over Ishikawa and I doubt that this is the only trade that the Giants will make.
no, it didn't
thanks for enlightening us with that particular bit of wisdom. I’m confident the ESPN boards can appreciate your top-notch analysis.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
I'm not trying to be a huge jerk
But there’s alot of complaints about giving up Barnes. He’s not Alderson and he’s not Mad-Bum. Could Barnes be a good pitcher one day? Sure. Could he bad? Sure. But it feels like alot of fans are acting like he is already a sure thing. We just gotta calm down and realize we just got a very nice offensive upgrade at first as Garko has an OPS 94 points better than Ishi and more homers and RBI’s. Besides, it could have been alot worse, they could be giving up three top minor leaguer’s for Nick Johnson, which is apparently want the Nats want
I'm happy with this
Scott is good at the moment, and he may be great, but he may suck. One thing the giants do not suck at is developing pitchers, so…we basically trade from our strength for a cheap, multi year not anciant guy? I’m good on this.
Proud new co-dad of Travis Ishikawa. And ishikaBOOM Goes the Dynamite.
I’m not real enthused. I don’t think it’s a bad trade, but Garko isn’t likely to hit enough to be a real asset at first. He is, however, an upgrade over what was a major offensive hole.
I like Scott Barnes and think this was a great trade from the Indians’ perspective. They didn’t really need Garko anyway.
The problem:
In the post game interview, when asked where Garko will hit in the lineup, Bochy said:
He’ll hit 5th or 6th… somewhere around there…
/facepalm
Bengie Molina is still our cleanup hitter
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
So Many Bitching About This Amazes Me.
Come on, take your hate blinders off, this is a good move by the Giants.
Why?
Use facts, logic, and reason.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Because It Improves The Gaints Offense And Playoff Chances In 2009 (And 2010-2012 Too).
and does’t cost anyone that was likely to be part of the Giants future.
by giantsrainman on Jul 27, 2009 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I…agree with GRM?
I think I need a shower.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
A perfectly reasonable trade IMO.
I know Garko’s not perfect, but he is an upgrade to the Giants anemic offense. And with Bumgarner, Alderson, Wheeler, Sosa, etc., not to mention Lincecum, Cain and Sanchez in the big leagues, Barnes was fully expendable.
yeah, fuck it: Garko is not horrible, can sting the ball, and is instantly among the current roster’s best hitters (no great feat, but…). I’d rather give him a shot than put faith in Velez/Guzman or another round of Frandsen, etc to miraculously figure it out and help put the wheels back on.
I’m only sad that Victor is unlikely to move now. But hey, the future isn’t any dimmer now is it?
by KrazyKrabMeat on Jul 27, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone else intrigued by the timing of the Guzman call up?
Is this a potential show case? He has already indicated that another trade is in the works.
Cain is Able ...
My feelings about this deal.
I am outraged by this great move to acquire a player I’ve wanted all season that was not worth picking up for such a reasonable price of an irreplaceable pitching prospect who will never amount to much LIRIANO AIGH SOMETHING ABOUT VELEZ.
Just so we’re clear on the matter.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
The general feeling I’m getting from everyone here (except maybe Marcello) is “meh”. At least I can say it’s nice that none of you are throwing yourselves down the stairs.
I think I’ll wait and see how he plays before I pass judgement at this point.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
Well, with midseason trades, you never know when a player is going to suddenly go on a massive tear and really help the team he’s been traded to. With that said, you can’t be sure he won’t turn into Ricky Ledee, either.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 28, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
For the record, I’m not in throwing myself down the stairs mode. I hate this deal because it makes no sense to trade away an interesting prospect for a marginal upgrade, but it’s not like it’s franchise crippling. It’s just stupid.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
When Hunting The Post Season (Just One Game Out) It Makes Perfect Sense.
by giantsrainman on Jul 27, 2009 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess if you thought that we would be finishing one game out of the playoffs, this might be a worthwhile move. In reality, we’re still longshots.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
“Blind Eyes of Hater” is my favorite Rush song.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jul 28, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t like it. They’re basically giving up on Ishikawa who is only 25 and they’re trading away a good prospect for a guy who is probably only a small improvement over what we have now.
2nd base remains a black hole.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
Lets wait and see. If this turns out to be the second coming of Shea Hillenbrand, than by all means … feel free to gloat. I think we obviously needed the upgrade offensively and hopefully Garko provides it. How much fun would it be to see him go all Randy Winn circa 2005 and just blister the baseball for two months.
Cain is Able ...
by Norcalfan10 on Jul 27, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions
/ Throws self down stairs
but seriously, meh trade. Barnes was cool, but if we hang on to Garko for a while, it will have been worth it
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM PDT reply actions
For Barnes
Couldn’t Sabes just have gotten Josh Willingham (I know, this is pure rosterbatorical conjecture)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Josh Willingham Might Just Be The Next Shoe To Drop.
I am thinking (and hoping that two more shoes will drop (Freddie Sanchez as well Josh Willingham).
by giantsrainman on Jul 27, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Willingham makes zero sense now that Garko is on the team.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
Left Field
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I’m surprised to find that UZR doesn’t hate him in LF. I thought all of the natinals other than Zimmerman were butchers.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
Who’s to say that a Willingham deal isn’t in the works? Sabes did say that he’s looking at one more trade before the deadline. Certainly Garko doesn’t block Willingham since he plays 1B and Josh plays LF. One more thing, now way the Nats give up Willingham for only Barnes. We’re going to have to give up at least 2 guys, but most likely 3, to get him. Most likely 1 MLB-ready reliever (think Merkin or Romo), 1 type B (think Paterson or Tanner), and 1 type C prospect (think Surkamp or Pill).
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Pls not Romo. Pretty pls.
Rafael Rodriguez: #8 on our list and batting .326 in Scottsdale...which I believe has be renamed Rafaelsdale.
by BrianBokake on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, Merkin and Romo aren’t equivalent at all. Sadly, they’re probably both better than any relievers in the Washington pen. SO KEEP ROMO SABES! HE’S GOOD!
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
So 2 Grand Slams from Willingham
how much do we have to give for him now..
by i wish we were good on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM PDT reply actions
Give them Sanchez
Dude threw a non-hitter, FTW
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I’d give them Sanchez + ML Reliever + a C prospect(considering Barnes was a ‘C+’
by i wish we were good on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
HAH! No. That would not make us better. If you haven’t noticed, we already have ML pitching problems before you subtract our current #4 starter.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Dropping Shoes
Sanchez didn’t play 2nd base tonight for Pittsburgh. The acquisition of Garko renders Guzman far less useful, at least in terms of the Giants’ planning. Inference: Guzman and maybe Velez were being showcased—quite successfully, too—as part of a trade of Sanchez to us. Hence the willingness of the Giants to have no 2nd base back-up for Uribe, after the departure of Downs, since it’s highly improbable that Velez is looked upon as serving that purpose more than very temporarily. I will pass on what this means for Willingham or some other outfielder. Of course one could play Garko in the outfield and Ishi at first . . .
It just seems like Freddy Sanchez is going to be a Giant.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Sanchez would be nice
But why not Scutaro? I dont think he would cost as much, his OPS and power numbers are better than Sanchez and he’s more versatile.
Oh, I love the idea of Scutaro. He’s having a magnificent year. I would love to get Sanchez and Scutaro.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Since His Hot April/May Scutaro Has Returned To His Previous Meh Level - The Rainman ain't Interested.
by giantsrainman on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions
It Would Still Be An Improvement Over Renteria
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Also
He’s hitting .325/.391/.506 in July so far. His only mediocre month has been June. Plus he plays good D.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I Am Sure You Know That Only An Injury Could Bench Renteria.
The Giants would be looking at Scutaro to play 2B. Personally I think Sanchez is the better option but if the Pirates keep their price too high Marco makes am acceptable backup plan.
by giantsrainman on Jul 28, 2009 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions
ALERT ALERT ALERT
Did you all SEE WHUT HE DID THER
Since His Hot April/May Scutaro Has Returned To His Previous Meh Level – The Rainman ain’t Interested.
OH , ain’t HE???
You’re off your feed , pal!
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Jul 28, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I told this to groug, WalrusMan, and Howtheyscored. This it is inevitable.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
I couldn't believe how negative the reaction was
Then I realized it was just marcello being negative over and over and over again :(
Hopefully Garko makes it seem like marcelLOL
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
One sane voice in a sea of crazy. And I love that it’s “being negative,” I’m just actually looking at how much this improves our team (not much) and how much it cost (one of our top ~10 prospects).
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
how much it cost (one of our top ~10 prospects)
OMG CANCEL THE TRADE
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
I’m not sure what your point is here.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
And I’m not sure what yours is. You dropped “one of our top 10 prospects” as if it were some sort of a huge bounty we paid. It was crap for crap, does it really require GINATS BRASS hate?
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
Barnes isn’t crap, he’s a solid prospect. We have one of the best farm systems in all of baseball, a top 10 prospect is nothing to scoff at.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
i'm scoffing RIGHT NOW
come on marcello join the meh train! mehrcello!
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
The fact that Barnes is one of the Giants top 10 prospects is pretty arbitrary. Beyond the 4 premium prospects and perhaps Neal, Crawford, and Rodriguez, none of the rest of the prospects could be called anything better than decent. Trading a decent prospect for a marginal upgrade of the MLB team is about as standard as a baseball trade can get.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 28, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Along with the fact the author of said ranking pretty much made fun of how he came up with Barnes’ placement. The BA rankings are an interesting read and I respect Baggs a lot, but he has a day job and can often miss the non hyped players – Sandoval wasn’t ranked in 2008, and Sadowksi wasn’t this year. (You can argue with the latter a bit, but I do think he’ll hang around the majors for a while even if not with the Giants and that would put him in the top 40 of most teams.)
Here’s another way to look at it: If Barnes projects out to his full potential, he ends up as Lowry. I loved Lowry’s changeup, but if you told me that you were trading the 2006 Lowry for Garko straight up, I’d have considered it unbalanced but not a total ripoff – you’d have needed to add another decent or better prospect on the Indians side to fix it. Given we don’t know what Barnes will end up doing, it’s more or less an appropriate deal despite the home town bias on both sides.
Well then, either he wouldn’t bring a B or even C+ prospect back in a trade right now – which even after his last 3 starts I still think he would – or the Giants farm system is a lot better than I think it is. Either that, or you made my point, which is that even really smart people often get their rankings wrong.
Sadowski is a journeyman who got lucky, he will join the Aaron Small’s, Matt Palmer’s, Eric Stults of the world, trust me, he has absolutely no trade value and didnt even when he won his first two starts.
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
I can’t wait until I get to make wcw style “I told you so” posts over and over again.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Don't you think this trade was made with a platoon in mind?
I think one of the hidden messages this is saying is that we are not giving up on Ishi. If we would have traded for Nick Johnson then Ishi doesn’t even have a roll with this team. I think you have these guys split the starts at 1st base and bring in Ishi as a defensive replacement, and 1st base becomes a + position for us.
In the meantime you have two young, talented players in the primes of their careers. Who knows, maybe one of them puts it together and becomes a real great player for the Giants. What is the alternative? Sign an overpriced veteren? Continue you have bad production? This seems like the exact type of trade everybody wanted. Improve our team without giving up any of our top 5 prospects. Well, we just did that!
Remember our last big trade with Cleveland? Let’s hope Garko turns out like Kent, which was a VERY unpoplular trade at the time!
I think Ishikawa will see his ABs go down, but he’ll still get a good amount, certainly.
Of course, as someone pointed out above, Garko is out-OPS’ing him against RHP this year… ugh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Yeah, throughout this whole discussion, Barnes and Ishikawa have been REALLY overvalued. Ishi frankly sucks at hitting.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Seriously, Barnes’ FIP is in the mid 3’s and his tra is at 4.5 in A+. He’s not a bad prospect, but nothing too special in a pitching rich organization
by Lobsterkite on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
The platoon is what immediately came to my mind… I don’t know if the splits support that, but that’s what I thought too.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 28, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't have a problem with it
But I liked the Baron’s reaction: “I’m gonna kill myself.”
GROUGTHINK ALERT
I admit to knowing more about Basketball and Football theory than Baseball
But I do watch every Giants game, and it has been pretty painful recently watching this “offense”, if you can call it that. It sounds like Barnes was a decent LHP prospect, but pitching is the one thing we do have, so to get what looks like is now our 2nd best hitter ( at least a threat to go deep and drives in some runs) is nice to see and hopefully translates to a few more easy runs. Couple this trade with a trade for Freddy Sanchez and I think the Giants will have enough offense to let their pitching take the wild card. If we don’t make any more trades, I think the future is still bright, but we most likely will falter down the stretch and miss the playoffs.
by Pearlsofwisdom on Jul 27, 2009 11:40 PM PDT reply actions
Yea I agree I Pearl. At least this will hopefully keep us in the race into Sept.
Which will make the rest of the season enjoyable to watch.
"The big thing people say to me is, 'Why don't you ever smile?' Well, I'm too interested in trying to beat somebody right now to smile." Will Clark
"I'm close to six feet, I like to think." The Freak.
Kudos
Props to Sabean for making a move – this guy is not great but he is a good major league hitter and splitting time with Travis at 1st base will be an upgrade over the present situation. You have to give up to get and Barnes is a reasonable price. There are other minor league pitchers ahead of him and at his level – MadBum, Alderson, Sosa, Pucetas, Tanner, Clark, English to name a few. It is a position of strength that we had to weaken a bit to improve our offense. Now if only we can get a major league quality 2nd basemant – Freddy Sanchez, Adam Kennedy, Marco Scutero – someone.
I think one basement is enough for any team.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 28, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m pretty mixed on the deal overall which probably means it was a fair trade. I’m dissapointed about losing Barnes as i was one of his bigger fans & Garko isn’t that great so i’m not estatic about the deal. But then Garko is an adequate major league player at a position of need, isn’t a rental & it’s easy to over-rate prospects sometimes, especially when you’re a big prospect follower.
Overall i guess i’m ok with the move, not delighted but not ready to get the pitchfork out.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
It may not be over yet
From David White of the SF Chronicle (and SF Gate):
Well, the friendly neighborhood general manager finally has delivered, and another potential trade for an unidentified energy boost was in the works well into the night.
For the record, as howie checked this thread on his phone, we were appalled that there was filler.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
I like Barnes a lot but in this organization he is fairly expendable. I think Garko is a very fair return for him, and should be a useful player for the Giants. The loss of Barnes is certainly nothing to get even a little bit upset over (and I say this as a Barnes fan).
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 28, 2009 12:42 AM PDT reply actions
Agree
I’m also a Barnes fan – had him in my personal top-10. He’s had a great year in High-A and is a relatively high-upside lefty arm. But the Giants have quite a few of those, so he was expendable, even if he was the best of them. I think that the AA turn will tell us a lot next year, so I will hold off final judgement until then. Remember, Ben Snyder was tearing through high-A last year, putting up better numbers than Barnes. Now his stuff isn’t nearly as good (principally, his FB which is 5-6 MPH slower), but there’s a huge difference between the lower and upper levels of the minors. If I had to guess, I’d put the odds at around 50% for Scotty to ever be a useful part of a major league team. For that, we got Garko, who is definitely a useful part of a ML team for the next 3 1/2 years. How useful? We’ll see. I’m not super excited, but neither am I blinded by my rage over this deal. I will, however, miss Scott.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
Nothing to get upset about unless you have an interview with him scheduled for next week, that is.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 28, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Good news everyone (especially Marcello)! I’ve taken the time to do some actual research, and come to a few conclusions. First, let’s assume Barnes is a grade C prospect. According to the work done here, that’s worth $2.1M to the Giants. If he was a grade B prospect he’d be worth $7.3M. So the question is, is Garko worth that to the Giants? Research done here also shows each additional WAR a hitter provides the Giants is actually worth more than 1 win, because of the low run scoring environment we play in.
Let’s call Garko a 2 WAR player, and say he’ll contribute .5 WAR to us the rest of this season. We should be on the hook for about $.2M for Garko this season. Using 40%, 60%, 80% arbitration numbers (I believe those are included in one of the articles I linked), we should pay Garko about $4M, $6M, $8M in each of the next 3 seasons, so we’re at about $18M or so. He accumulates 6.5 WAR over that time, worth about $29M. This is without even taking the low run scoring environment adjustment into account. Garko provides us with an approximate $11M in value, far more than Barnes, even as a Type B prospect, is worth. Great trade, we win.
Just want to give credit to Beyond the Box Score for their work. I’d also like to hear any problems anyone has with my assumptions, if there are any.
by Missing Barry on Jul 28, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions
from the merc:
Bochy said Garko will play almost exclusively at first base and will hit fifth or sixth.
Ah, Giants baseball. MOLINA WILL C MOAR FASSBALLS
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
I was happy with the trade the second I heard it, but...
I am highly influenced by the opinions of STAT nerds like marcello and xnathan, so now I’m more ‘meh’.
Wilber Bucardo: Carlos Silva with a younger brother.
and pie
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 28, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry for misspelling your name..
Just noticed its xanthan not xnathan.
Wilber Bucardo: Carlos Silva with a younger brother.
Used to be Nathan
now he’s not
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Jul 28, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
also, America.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 28, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Listening to BP podcast this morning....
… and they’re claiming that there’s a PTNL in this Garko trade. This is the first I’ve heard of this, any confirmations?
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Jul 30, 2009 6:40 AM PDT reply actions
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