Matt Holliday Traded to the Cardinals
Brett Wallace, Shane Peterson and Clay Mortensen coming back.
According to Minor League Ball, the #2, #23, and #17 prospects in the Cardinal organization before the season started
4 months ago
ryanmiles
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A's win big on this one
This has to be better than the A’s could have hoped for. What were the Cards thinking for a 2 month rental?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 9:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
PLAYOFFS?!
Still in despair.
BRING BACK MARMOL!
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Jul 24, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But anyone can contend for the playoffs
You have to be a WORLD SERIES CONTENDER
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just anyone
Exhibit A: Washington Natinals.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jul 24, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d bet he signs an extension there.
Original member of the Van Buren Boys
by NuschlerFace on Jul 24, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But St. Louis is the best baseball town on Earth!
Original member of the Van Buren Boys
by NuschlerFace on Jul 24, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the color of money is green
No matter where you are
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Natasha?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dahlink!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jul 24, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moose and squirrel.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
by leftymalo on Jul 24, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sarah Palin?
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Presto!
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
by leftymalo on Jul 24, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re thinking they need to satisfy the greatest player in the game. They haven’t made the playoffs since 06, when they barely squeaked in and got lucky to win a World Series. Pujols can leave after next year if he wants to and he already expressed some reluctance to commit to staying just yet because management hasn’t exactly done a lot to help him of late. This is the REAL move behind DeRosa and now Holliday. They have to at least try to get him some help for this year so he’ll want to sign an extension and not test the FA market.
AND they’re in first place by only 1.5 games and need help behind Pujols. And all they gave up is a future DH, a back of the rotation sinkerballer or set-up guy, and an organizational outfielder. For it they get 2 1/2 months of a near elite level LF. Holliday could hit .100 for them and this trade is still a huge win because it will likely go a long way towards helping them to satisfy Pujols worries about the team’s future direction.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like when the Giants got Alfonzo to replace Kent as Bonds’ protection?
by seyheystretch on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoa
I’m sure glad we didn’t give up that much. Good timing on that post yesterday, Grant.
by BigO on Jul 24, 2009 9:56 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
If you’re going by BA, Wallace was #2, Mortensen # 6, and Peterson unranked, 5th in their depth chart for RF prospects.
I don’t think they are really getting a lot here. Just goes to show how much Holliday’s stock has kinda slipped over the course of this season. Plus the A’s are throwing some money the Cards way.
Wallace hasn’t exactly lit up the PCL. Mortensen got rocked by our own Giants in his only ML appearance, and has command issues. I just expected they could do a lot better.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 9:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s a pretty awesome deal for the A’s.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why? I mean, besides “I don’t think it’s very good”.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do the A’s win from this?
They’re giving the Cardinals a good portion of money, and they’re getting back 1 decent but not great prospect. Wallace can hit sure, but ALL his value is in his bat. The guy is going to end up being a DH in Oakland. That’s not exactly a huge value if the guy can’t play the field. Plus his season this year hasn’t exactly been very impressive for a hitter of his supposed caliber. Especially in a hitter friendly league.
Clayton Mortensen got rocked by the Giants, and he has big concerns about his command. And the Peterson kid, isn’t really a prospect.
Essentially they gave up Huston Street, Carlos Gonzalez, Greg Smith, and 1.5 million dollars for Brett Wallace, Clayton Mortensen and Shane Peterson.
How exactly do they win here?
I think Beane could have done better.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
They’re giving the Cardinals a good portion of money
$1.5M is not a lot of money.
Clayton Mortensen got rocked by the Giants, and he has big concerns about his command.
Obviously he’ll never be any good.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
$1.5M is not a lot of money
It is for the A’s.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
by leftymalo on Jul 24, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But generally I agree with Xanthan. You’re OK, computer.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
by leftymalo on Jul 24, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been waiting a long time to lower the Radiohead reference on xanthan. Crap.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably your favorite nba team as well HUH?!
ROWAND I LOVE YOU SON!
old signature:
"apparently the adoptive parent of the 2nd best hitter on the team.
/shrug"
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jul 25, 2009 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He profiles as a back-end rotation starter. Big fucking deal. And that’s IF he is able to locate his pitches in the strike-zone consistently. Otherwise he’ll end up as a middle reliever. Big whoop.
1.5 M over the remaining 6 for this year, is a pretty decent amount. The Cards are getting to satisfy Pujols that he SHOULD resign with them, an All-Star LF rental, 2 draft picks, and the BUDGET CONSCIOUS A’s are picking up part of the tab. All they give up is a back end pitcher, and a future DH.
I wonder who wins?? Hmm…
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get it. You hate these prospects, but I think you’re being overly negative here.
Really, if you haven’t, read the BtB article I linked to below. By value, the A’s got a ton back and the Cardinals aren’t getting nearly as much.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are taking that number as gospel when it’s really an estimate. There are too many factors that effect the final number to consider it very accurate. Say their calculation of prospect value is off somewhat, and instead of $22 million worht of value it’s $18 million. Or say their value of what a type-A FA is worth, or Holliday comes over and is on fire the rest of the year and actually makes a 3 or 4 win difference, or their chance of making the playoffs goes up 20% instead of 15%, etc.
Not saying these numbers aren’t useful and I’m a Joe Morgan type who hates sabermetrics. But it is still such a young science that to point to that post and say the final number is correct and the Cards got screwed is a big leap of faith.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are taking that number as gospel when it’s really an estimate
Silly me and my empirical numbers!
/rubs trade stone
OH TRADE STONE, SHOULD I TRADE FOR HOLLIDAY
/stone says yes
THE TRADE STONE HAS SPOKEN
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, because in my post I said all those numbers were stupid and wrong and math sucks and research sucks and those who do it are nerds. Very constructive response.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just like how I said I was taking those numbers as gospel!
You’re angering the trade stone.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said you were taking those numbers as gospel, not you! Don’t try to steal my accusations, pal.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They aren’t necessarily completely correct, and it’ll depend how the prospects work out anyway, but the fact that there’s a clear edge gives you a good idea which direction it’s going in.
Also, in my opinion it passes the eye test where the numbers with regards to the value of compensation picks match up pretty well with their expected values.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Jul 24, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a fun little tool, but it’s so full of approximations and estimates that I wouldn’t consider it anything more than a fun little tool.
by Evan on Jul 24, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s true, but no one seems to be offering a cogent alternative way of measuring this.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
xanthan is: trade stone.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
….where is your hand?
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 24, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/does not want to see Xanthan’s trade stone… let alone rub it
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does there have to be? I mean, that BtBS piece says Holliday gives the Cards a 15% improvement in their chance of making the playoffs, and that’s worth $4 million. Isn’t that a strange way to try to measure it? Cardinal fans are excited now. Cardinal players are probably fired up. Late-summer baseball just got a lot more exciting in St. Louis. Isn’t that what it’s all about? What difference does it make whether the Cards come out ahead or behind by a few million according to a hilariously crude dollar scale?
by Evan on Jul 24, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the whole reason the Cardinals FO is interested in contending/winning is because of the potential revenue. They aren’t doing it to get people fired up only in an altruistic sense. What BtBS is trying to do is to zero in on a closer estimation of what that revenue value actually is.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’s true that the Cardinals FO cares only about potential revenue. Baseball people love the game, they love to win, they love to have a reason to check the scoreboard every night.
More to the point, I don’t see why that’s all WE should care about.
by Evan on Jul 24, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a fan of neither the Cardinals nor the A’s, the less romantic aspects of baseball are all I am really interested when it comes to those teams.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and now Albert Pujols will resign with St. Louis. This is where they really win this trade. Some people probably think he was never leaving, but that team is not capable of having a huge budget, and the last 3 years they weren’t exactly as good as the early part of this decade and game’s greatest player seemed to considering exploring free agency. With these moves by the Cards, I think Pujols will stay.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and now Albert Pujols will resign with St. Louis.
Are you from the future? Tell me more!
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he has a “fried” in the Cardinals organization.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my fried Larry Bear he does!
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re just full of snarky comments today aren’t we?
The chances of him STAYING are much better with the Cardinals making this move. He wanted management to show some sort of commitment towards winning another World Series and he just got it.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not being snarky, honest!, but some of the things you’re saying seem to be pulled out of jcb9’s ass. That’s all.
So, Pujols will stay because they traded for Holliday? Or does the team also have to resign Holliday? I’m not sure I understand.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols said this in the off-season:
“It’s not about the money all the time,” the first baseman said Sunday in Jupiter, Fla. "It’s about being in a place to win and being in a position to win.
“If the Cardinals are willing to do that and put a team [on the field] every year like they have, I’m going to try to work everything out to stay in this town. But if they’re not bringing championship-caliber play every year, then it’s time for me to go somewhere else that I can win.”
The last 2 seasons, prior to this one weren’t exactly championship caliber. The year before they won the WS, but only won 82 games. This year they’re in first by 1.5 games but it’s pretty much all because of Pujols.
He’s wanted the front-office to get him some help or at least show their willingness to. Trades for DeRosa and Holliday should help IMO keep Pujols under the impression that the Cards are committed to having a WS contender every year.
I don’t really think it’s necessary they re-sign Holliday, nor can they probably afford him long-term anyway. They’ll take their 2 picks and be happy since Ankiel should be back healthy next year and Ludwick has struggled with injuries, plus they have an emerging young CF in Rasmus. Glaus has been out all year too.
The Cards are going to be in a great position pretty soon for the rest of the year. Glaus and Khalil Greene will be coming back, and they’ve just added Matt Holliday.
Even if they don’t get anything from Glaus or Greene, they’ll still have much better chances than they did by getting Pujols some help. This should mean no more Joe Thurston.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All correct observations. I think the Cardinals got the better of the trade, even though I think Wallace will be a perfectly good 3B for the A’s (or whomever). Just as it would have been if it had been the Giants who had traded for him, Holliday now gets a couple of months to test drive a city/front office that he might sign with over the winter. St. Louisans would likely believe that “if he got to know us, he’d love us.”
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also I read an interesting comment that everyone the Cards have traded for in the past have pretty much resigned in St. Louis. McGwire, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, etc. All guys who could have made more money elsewhere.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The value thing is weird
Several mediocre prospects could look like a high value, when in reality, they may not be worth much.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, occasionally it’ll miss low and occasionally it’ll miss high. The idea is a to get a good estimation of the future value founded in research and analysis of past prospects eventual value.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read the article.
Here’s my problem though, the package that the A’s gave up for Holliday was probably worth more than what they just got in return for him.
Carlos Gonzalez too was a top 30 prospect (doesn’t qualify anymore), and he actually brings + defensive value in right field. Huston Street is an inexpensive All-Star caliber reliever, and Greg Smith is a back of the rotation starter.
So again how did the A’s win by having Holliday and then trading him for this package they just received? If you’re going purely by the standpoint that Beane was able to GET value for Holliday, than sure he won out. But he was going to get some kind of value back for Holliday regardless. I just think he could have done a lot better. I don’t see how I’m being overly negative, when I am just of the opinion that the Holliday experiment was a failure for the A’s. The big thing about getting him was that he’d flip him for some huge haul and this is all he ends up with. Decent sure, but not good or great. Unless Wallace turns into Pablo Sandoval with a higher BB rate, but I don’t see that happening.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huston Street is an inexpensive All-Star caliber reliever
Wait, what?
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 24, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I miss Madtown Bomber. He was like the source of BIG OMG FREAKOUT news last season.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sick burn
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s been lights out this year. Much better than I thought he would be. And the perception of him has always been pretty good, no? Maybe not by me, but within baseball.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's impressive..
How did you remember he said that?
Brandon Crawford: Your SF Giants 2011 Opening Day starting SS!
by Azmanz on Jul 24, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you follow that subthread down a bit, you’ll notice I figure prominently in the discussion.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty clear who wins
Also, remember that the A’s got a full season of Holliday for Huston Street, Greg Smith, and Carlos González. They then traded 40% of a season of Holliday for this package, which is obviously much better.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the problem is Colorado didn’t get enough in return, not that the Cardinals gave up too much.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think both are true. It’s not like the Cards got destroyed, it’s just that Oakland came out on top on this trade.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything depends on Wallace
How good is he, and is he just a DH?
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most think he can play third base in the short-term.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I wouldn’t let this years numbers dictate opinion on him, he’s been promoted really aggressively and held his own.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s definitely the key question. I can’t see it, though. A big slow guy who can’t play defense and doesn’t have massive home-run power? Lot of problems there. He’s a good pickup for the A’s, but I wouldn’t hesitate to trade him in the Cards’ place.
by Evan on Jul 24, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if he proves he can’t stay at 3rd base and is only going to be Pujols back-up, the Cards would lose a lot of leverage in future trade negotiations, even if he does tear up AAA. This is probably a pretty minor factor but not something to be completely ignored.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The ‘budget conscious’ A’s also don’t have to pay Holliday for the rest of the year now, so $1.5 mil to cover Brett Wallace’s signing bonus isn’t a big deal. They got out from at least $5 mil owed to Holliday
They weren’t going to do anything the rest of the year, may as well save some cash and get a good prospect instead of taking the risk on drafting shitty guys with the picks
by m34josh on Jul 24, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They win because they get Wallace (and a couple of other prospects, but we’ll assume they’re worthless) who’s a lot more valuable than the 2 draft picks they would otherwise have had. Their previous trade is in the past so has no bearing on this one, but for the record i thought they were stupid to trade for him in the first place.
I doubt Beane could have done better as i can’t see any other team coming even close to matching that trade (i know i certainly wouldn’t) That’s the reason the trade was made now as opposed to nearer the deadline because Beane knew he wouldn’t get a better offer & so snapped the Cardinals hand off!
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Jul 24, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea... Wallace is going to be a beast
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jul 24, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More like Buzz’s girlfriend. Woof!
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 24, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the Cards will offer arbitration so St Louis will likey get some draft picks compensation.
Throughout the years the Oakland/St Louis trades have been for big name players. Once a player gets to St Louie they seem to enjoy their stay and will definitely consider signing an extension.
Bet Albert Pujols is happy
by wilriv21 on Jul 24, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly wil, this trade is all about making Pujols happy. Cards win big here. Not only will this satisfy Albert, but they get a good bat to help protect him down the stretch, AND the cheapass Oakland A’s are picking up part of the tab. And all they gave up was a future DH (who isn’t really raking it at AAA) and a pitcher who will probably end up in the bullpen down the line.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace is tackling AAA for the first time as a 22-year old. This isn’t 25-year old Jesus Guzman we are talking about.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a player who’s value is entirely in his bat, I would say his season has been a disappointment.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s arguably a top-30 prospect in all of baseball. Methinks you might be a tad negative on this one.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously they wouldn’t close a $15 million gap, but I wonder if they factor in the draft picks that the Cards would get (maybe that’s what they mean by salaries, prospects, wins, etc?)
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nevermind, they mention that being a Type-A is worth $5 mil.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ll see if he ends up being any better than Daric Barton. Beane hasn’t exactly knocked it out of the park in prospect trades lately.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen Barton play
I don’t know what people mean when they mention “a hole in the swing”, but I think he has it.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Win-Win
Good deal for both. Unlike the Giants, it is much more likely that the Cardinals were 1 player away from playoffs and possible World Series contention. With Puljos, Holliday, DeRosa and Molina, they have a pretty solid offense to go with Carpenter and Wainwright. They are now WS contenders, especially in a weak NL.
As for Wallace, there has been constant speculation that he can’t stick at 3rd, which means 1st is his only other option. With Puljos there, he isn’t getting a sniff of the ML club for years, at least not as a starter. So why not deal him to help the big club make a run at the title? Good move by the Cards.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 10:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I get that Wallace was probably superfluous given the Cards’ depth chart, but that doesn’t make him less valuable as a trade chip. I think they should have gotten more than just a good-not-great two month rental for him.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you might be underrating Holliday and overrating Wallace. He started slow but he’s been good since May and he already knows the league and pitchers, so I don’t expect he needs any time to contribute. I think he produces in line with the Matt Holliday of the last few years.
Wallace is a one-dimensional player probably stuck to a single position on the diamond. That’s not as valuable as many think. Plus the Cards get draft picks in return if he signs somewhere else, so they can attempt to replace the prospects given up through the draft.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace
I’ve seen Wallace play a good deal. He’s surprisingly good defensively at 3B. He won’t make us old-timers forget Brooks Robinson, but I’d welcome him with open arms to 3B at SF. It took him about 6 weeks to get adjusted to AAA pitching, but now he’s doing fine offensively.
In short, yes he can play 3B. I wouldn’t be shocked if he could play LF decently. And no, he’s not sucking in the PCL.
I think Wallace is better than some of you think, and I still think the Cards made the right call.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn
I just realized that now it’s either (a) more likely that we stand pat at the deadline, or (b) that we cough up way too much for a bat at the deadline. Thanks, Mozeliak.
by BigO on Jul 24, 2009 10:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Viva Gigantes said
So it appears the A’s bent the Cards over and sent Holliday over to St. Louis for a top prospect plus two. St Louis is probably a better fit for Holliday, since he’ll no longer be the center of attention and will be in a lineup that includes offensive firepower from Pujols, Luwick, and Rasmus to name a few. Holliday has also been decent at Busch, which can’t be said about his work at AT&T. So with Holliday off the table, I was wondering what folks thought of Josh Willingham from the Nats. I know they were down scouting the CT team recently, I wonder if he could be a possibility. I like him, I think we could get him cheap (maybe Lewis and an autographed Bill Swift rookie card), he hits for righthanded power, and he’s not a defensive liability like Dunn would be. I also wouldn’t be opposed to tossing in a Tim Lincecum autographed Rich Aurilia for Dunn. Thoughts?
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 24, 2009 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick, Rasmus and Holliday is a pretty bad ass outfield.
by deuce deuce on Jul 24, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad we don’t have to face the Cards for the rest of the season.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 24, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
Here is the lineup they could potentially roll out come mid to late August:
C Yadier Molina
1B Albert Pujols
2B Skip Schumaker
SS Khalil Greene
3B Troy Glaus
LF Matt Holliday
CF Colby Rasmus
RF Ryan Ludwick.
Good luck Dodgers. HA!
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they have DeRosa too if Greene or Glaus can’t go.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot about DeRosa, good point.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They have to be the favorites now right?
I just hope they kill the Dodgers.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on whether the Phils get Halladay.
by Evan on Jul 24, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if they get Halladay…I like the Cards pitching over them.
Especially when matching up the bullpens.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That left side of the infield is extremely suspect, but I get what you mean.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Schumaker is also really bad on defense.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Lincecum autographed Rich Aurilia for Dunn
do it.
by Unitard on Jul 24, 2009 10:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Git R Dunn
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this is what it takes to get the bat the Giants need...
Then I’d have to say the Giant cannot get the middle of the order presence they need to make a difference. Sure, the could still make the playoffs, but any hope of getting a real difference maker will have too steep of a price tag.
This was a very good deal for the A’s – the Bay Area will love both their portly third base-men!
by RUSirius on Jul 24, 2009 12:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
AN is having the “CAN FATTIES PLAY THIRD?!” debate that we had at the beginning of the season.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They can have their fatty playing third. I like ours a whole lot better.
A’s fans will be crying for Eric Chavez or even Jack Hannahan defensively.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FATTIES CAN NOT PLAY THE THIRD!
OR CAN THEY?!
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From BA Chat
JAYPERS (IL): Your thoughts on the Wallace/Holliday trade?
Jim Shonerd: The Cardinals needed an infusion of offense for their outfield. But their farm system was already on its way down our organization rankings, and now it’s gotten even thinner. Wallace steps in as the best lefthanded bat in Oakland’s system, and he’s no longer blocked from moving to first base or DHing should that need arise.
Jason (Chicago): How soon will Brett Wallace be playing in Oakland?
Jim Shonerd: I would expect him to come quickly, and certainly by September.
by Fresburg on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jaypers crapers look at those papers!
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coming by September certainly does not sound quick to me.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 24, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m probably in the minority on this but does anyone think Carlos Gonzalez ends up being the better player?
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he seemed pretty meh at Sacramento last year.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but he’s done well this year in the PCL and improved his BB rate, which is encouraging. He also brings fantastic defense to the OF.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would change things. I didn’t see anything that made me think he was more than one of those good in a corner/not good in center types.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scary thought: how many more pitches will Pujols see now if he’s batting in front of Holliday?
"He is Tim Lincecum...the Most Interesting Pitcher in the World."
by Kitspool on Jul 24, 2009 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Numbers brought to you by jcb’s ass.
Proud father of Barry Zito. As long as he keeps throwing strikes, that is.
by MonkeyChow on Jul 24, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just saw it on MiLB.com’s main page. That’s quite a coup for the A’s. Wallace is really good.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No Roy Halliday for StL...
That’s the bright side – One team off that list. Hey, I can dream can’t i? Wouldn’t it be unbelievable to have Halliday in our rotation? Who needs runs?
"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by Bobeau on Jul 24, 2009 1:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
who needs a farm system?
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides that
StL won’t be able to get Roy Halladay either.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
tonipeluso (Oakland, CA): Can you breakdown the Holliday trade. I love Wallace but don’t know anything about Shane Peterson or Clayton Mortenson.
Eric Seidman: Cardinals get 2 months of Holliday, As get two prospects (Peterson and Mortenson) that Kevin Goldstein likes but doesn’t love, and Wallace, who was likely a 1B in the MLB, and I’m pretty sure Pujols ain’t going anywhere. Billy Beane was able to trade Holliday for more than he traded to GET Holliday, and the Cardinals legitimately upgrade their outfield. Is it too cliche to say win-win?
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I still think Wallace is being overrated like no other. I fail to see how this package is better than what they gave up to get Holliday.
quality closer, top 30 prospect with elite level defense and big upside with the bat, and a back of the rotation starter
Or:
Top 30 prospect with below average defense but polished bat, probable 4th-5th starter if he can command his fastball/improve slider but most likely middle reliever, and a 4th OF or AAAA player in a Ben Copeland/Clay Timpner mold.
Again, how did they get a better package back? Other than extended service time, which the A’s probably won’t get to maximize because they’ll just trade Wallace (if he ends up being good) before he hits FA.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, another slant
Great reliever who is already getting expensive, former top 30 prospect who hasn’t hit anywhere outside of extreme hitters parks/leagues in the minors, and an organizational arm.
or:
Top 30 prospect with a great bat and the likely ability to remain at 3B in the near future (team controlled years), a potential #3 starter who throws strikes and gets groundballs, and a 4th outfielder.
I’ll take door #2.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not many people are sold on Wallace at 3rd base, and even if he sticks there it’s only because of his bat and you’re putting up with subpar defense. He’s going to have to rake from Day 1 to make it worth the A’s while to play him at third. Mortensen has to make a pretty big leap to have hopes of being a #3 starter. He gets groundballs but his command and ability to throw strikes isn’t good consistently enough to warrant that. Most of his projection is upside based and he’s been rushed considerably to start his career. The Cardinals track record with developing pitching prospects hasn’t exactly been good either. The ones who did succeed it only lasted about a year before they flamed out like Reyes and Ankiel.
When you are relying on guys who have a small probability of reaching their ceiling that’s not exactly a great idea. Wallace will be good for the A’s, he just likely won’t be able to do so while playing third base which will deflate his value a little bit.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Not many people are sold on …….. at 3rd base, and even if he sticks there it’s only because of his bat and you’re putting up with subpar defense. He’s going to have to rake from Day 1 to make it worth the ……… while to play him at third”
Not the first time its been said on this board in the last year about a 22 year old! Good stuff
by m34josh on Jul 24, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pablo has raked from day 1. Whether Wallace can do the same has yet to be seen. Pablo is a very unique player.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pablo has absolutely not raked since day 1. He was very ‘MEH’ in 2006 and 2007. He didn’t begin to rake until last year
Brett Wallace was winning triple crowns in the PAC-10 those years so we can’t really compare them to Pablo’s ‘MEH’ with a wooden bat, and he only has about 1/3 of the at-bats in the minors to compare, but nearly all of them were at a higher level than Pablo.
I think they are both going to put up awesome numbers in the next decade. A’s got the better end of this deal
by m34josh on Jul 24, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was talking about in the majors in relation to Pablo.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 24, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the Giants' equivalent prospect package?
Something like Neal, Barnes and Lewis? How many of you would have done that?
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can imagine Neal being, eventually, the hitting equivalent of Wallace. I value Barnes more highly than Mortensen. Lewis is an excellent comp, overall, to the Cards’ OF.
So maybe I’d say our equivalent would have been Bowker, Joe Martinez, and Lewis.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
God no
Wallace is a MUCH higher rated prospect than any of those listed. Alderson, Martinez, and [insert 4th OF type] is closer.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking less about reputation and more about minor league production. Bowker has hit well almost everywhere he’s been, including dominating the PCL this year. Wallace has hit well everywhere he’s been, although not yet dominating in the PCL but starting to assert himself. That’s as far as I went with the comparison.
I agree that Wallace is much higher rated by most, and I’d agree that Alderson would be fairly similar in prospect-goodness to Wallace (although I think Wallace would be ahead there), but I was trying to think of a hitter to pair up with Wallace.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both teams won. The point of having a farm system is to win a World Series int he future. But if you can get the World Series this year, then that point is mute.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Jul 24, 2009 2:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No, I can hear it.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate myself sometimes.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Jul 24, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
better that a moo point
A cow’s opinion means nothing.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially when you can’t hear it. A moot mute moo.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool deal for Brett Wallace. He gets to come back to the Bay and make the big leagues sooner. Wonder if he rooted for the A’s or the Giants as a kid???
by m34josh on Jul 24, 2009 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s why he waived the no trade clause.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Jul 24, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know if the rockies upset the phils and the cards upset the bums in the first round
its a long shot but matt holliday in coors was a scary thing and the cards might be thinking about that
Garlic fries 08
by operation carrot on Jul 24, 2009 3:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, if the Rockies win the Wild Card and the Cards finish with a better record than the Phillies, that works too.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Jul 24, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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