Why hasn't Neal Been Promoted?!
I know this is a bit off topic with all the Deadline talk but I think it's something that needs to be discussed. Why haven't the Giants promoted Neal to AA? I will provide reasons and analysis to support this below...
1. Neal is tearing up the CAL League like Crawford was during the beginning of the year. His current line is .344/.430/.617 with 17 homers.
2. Some of you may say the power and average is aided by the CAL league. This is true but let me remind you that Neal put up a .800 OPS in Low A Augusta with 15 homers, so he's always had this power and he hit for a .276 average.
3. Posey who had .326/.428/.540 line was promoted all the way to AAA before him despite having slightly worse numbers. They are the same age and Posey actually has to learn a harder position. I don't know much of of Neal Defense, but Left Field isn't that tough of a position to learn and play.
4. Neal has improved his discipline from last year despite playing in a tougher league. He lowered his strikeout rate from 24% to 19% and kept his walk rate at 11%. Both of these are encouraging.
5. Also isn't a right handed powerful and patient outfielder what we need since we have Fred (no power) and Shierholtz (no patience) ? He is perfect for us and we need to move him up a level and see how he does so we know if we should sign Holliday or Bay this offseason. I think his promotion is long overdo and really can't understand the Giants reasoning behind not moving him up. Please discuss and thanks for reading.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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108 comments
Comments
I don’t know, he should be promoted
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by CB30 on Jul 23, 2009 6:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Well, that was easy.
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by Natto on Jul 23, 2009 6:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post....
Only answer I have is that the Giants are clueless when it comes to moving players around the Minor League system….I can assure you if Neal was a 1st round pick, he would have left San Jose a long time ago…It’s just a matter of reputation if you ask me…
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by Mordy From Monsey on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
on the other hand
you don’t see many 36th round picks get paid $220,000 bonuses. The Giants obviously saw something in him they liked from the get go and were willing to pay for it.
Neal before Zod!
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 23, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give the Giants credit for doing something right? NEVER!
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by Natto on Jul 23, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ve been discussing it in Minor Lines, btw.
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by Natto on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Neal is tearing up the CAL League like Crawford was."
and how’s Crawford doing since the promotion? Maybe that’s why.
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by rxmeister on Jul 23, 2009 6:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Neal’s been doing it for a lot longer than Crawford was.
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by jponry on Jul 23, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS?
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by Natto on Jul 23, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In absolute terms, sure.
In prospect terms, 2/3rds of a season is a pretty long time. Also, considering how well he’s hitting: the bigger the deviation, the smaller the sample needs to be before it becomes relevant.
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by Bhaakon on Jul 24, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
re
It is still pretty common for prospects to have fluky seasons, especially in a hitters league like the CAL. Combine that with a very high BABIP, caution might be the order of the day. Additionally, I player who had plate discipline issues the last couple years may very well benefit from the experience of being pitched around and learning to lay off the junk.
by irwin on Jul 24, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get this argument.
If it’s a mirage, it’s best to find out. If it’s for real, there’s no reason to keep him there. Promotion is the answer in either case.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jul 24, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might be that he has taken a big step forward, but not as big as his stats show and still has things to learn in the CAL. You are not going to hurt him by leaving him there the whole year and promotion might leave him overmatched like Crawford.
by irwin on Jul 24, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crawford was due for a big time regression
.478 BABIP + a ridiculous K rate. He had one hot, flukey month, you can’t even compare that to what Neals done.
Neals .396 BABIP is not ridiculous for cal league and his K rate isn’t horrible. He’s putting up better numbers than Crawford was, for a longer period of time and it doesn’t have the flukey peripherals like Crawford. And for the hitters league comment, he plays half his games in a big time pitchers park so it evens out.
by superk1ng on Jul 24, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Also, a top prospect should have a high BABIP because he should be scalding the ball against weaker competition.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 25, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, TWSS.
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by WalrusMan on Jul 26, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know!
The Giants outfield is loaded in AA!
No, actually I dunno.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 23, 2009 6:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I just looked at the team stats for the Defenders. It’s been a while since I looked at the offensive (that has two definitions right?) of that club. They stink.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 23, 2009 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that should read “offensive stats”
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 23, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Mooney needs more time!
no wait, he doesn’t. Neal should be promoted.
Neal before Zod!
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 23, 2009 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A spot opened up recently
With Antoan Richardson being released.
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by BruteSentiment on Jul 25, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no!
Antoan Richardson helped me almost get to the World Series like 5 times in Baseball Mogul.
Career Line: .282 / .372 / .430 in 10 full seasons out of CF.
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by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They know they aren’t going to be in Conn. next year and they don’t want to subject him to Dodd?
by OTTOMATIC on Jul 23, 2009 6:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting… I suppose this could explain Posey skipped a level. I always thought he should continue to work with the next wave of Giants pitchers (i.e. Madbum and Alderson), but this might mean that they are both in Fresno next year with him.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 23, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on promoting Neal
FWIW though, steve s posted this comment in one of the Minor Lines threads:
I know everyone wants to see promotions, but given Neal’s age and the time he’s missed, I think what he has still left to prove is that he can sustain his current performance over a full season. Given the jump from the Cal League to the Eastern League for hitters, I’d let him consolidate his success and make that jump next year. There’s a lot more downside to promoting a player prematurely than waiting too long. Plus, with Posey now promoted, there’s an opportunity for Neal to show what he can with one less potent bat in the lineup to protect him.
I’d still like to see him promoted, but I can see steve’s point.
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by marcello on Jul 23, 2009 6:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is along the lines with what I was going to post.
Neal is not the same age as Posey, as the OP put. He’s turns 21 in August, Posey is already 22. Posey and Crawford both were All-American collegians who played 3 years in college. Neal played 1 year of JC ball as a draft-and-follow and then missed time with injury early in his minor league career. He played a lot of first base last year and DH, and I have no problem with them taking his advancement a little slow, at least this year. He can move up to AA next year and still be pretty young for the league. There really is no huge rush to promote him IMO, plus I agree with that quote above that it will be nice to see what he can do without Posey around. So far he’s done well. I must say I will be excited to see what Kieschnick and Neal can do at AA once they get there.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 23, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+
The one thing that we don’t see is his defense. Could that be an issue?
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by Smotheredinhugs on Jul 23, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His defense is plus. He has an accurate strong arm. He makes outfield assists often.
I think he’s ready to move up.
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 23, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait, really?
First I’ve heard he has plus defense.
Why isn’t he in RF if he’s a plus defender with a good arm?
by wcw on Jul 23, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They stuck him at first in Augusta last season. They have him in left this year. I don’t know why they decided to put him at either position.
I’ve seen a lot of Neal this year in San Jose and all of it has been impressive. Kieschnick’s arm is better if you ask me, but that doesn’t take away from Neal’s ability.
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kieshnick is generally considered the better RF, not to say Neal can’t play it.
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by haverecords on Jul 24, 2009 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s ready too, but at the same time I have no problem with them taking it a bit slow. At least for this year. They can challenge him next year when there is much more expected of him.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 23, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. I’m not sure they gain much by bring him up to AA, though I do think he’s ready.
if he is promoted and does well: hey, a good prospect, but still shouldn’t be promoted to MLB level until sometime late next year at the absolute earliest. If not, and he continues to do well at A, he’s in much the same spot: at AA next year.
They’d learn more about his quality as a prospect, but they don’t really need to answer that this year.
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by haverecords on Jul 24, 2009 2:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Age
Neal turns 22 in August. He’s 5 months younger than Posey. Those 5 months fall in such a way to make their season age 1 year apart, but it’s reasonable to say that they’re about the same age.
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by Roger on Jul 24, 2009 5:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neal's baseball age is younger
Neal lost basically 1 whole season to the shoulder injury and rehab in 2007, so I believe the baseball age difference in comparison to Posey is even more than 5 months.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just correcting Hobbes comment that Neal was still only 20. Obviously Posey has more experience due to Neal’s two lost seasons (not to mention the disparity between Neal’s freshman year at a CC and Posey’s at the SEC). That said, it’s not a point in Neal’s favor, it’s a difficulty that he will have to overcome that his experience is behind other players his age.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jul 24, 2009 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
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by haverecords on Jul 23, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's still young
And the Giants don’t want to rush him. Crawford is older, and plays a position of extreme weakness throughout the upper levels of our minor league system. Also, Renteria will be gone after 2010, so the Giants were looking for any glimmer of hotness from Crawford to move him up to AA this year in the hopes of him being in AAA in 2010 then in SF in 2011.
That being said, I believe that if the Giants’ AA team played geographically closer to SF, and didn’t play in the hitter’s hell that is Dodd, that Neal would have been promoted to AA by now. I believe they just don’t want to chance popping Neal’s bubble by having him play at Dodd for 2 months. Next year (unless he absolutely shines in ST) he should start off at AA Richmond, with a chance of being promoted to Fresno if he stays hot for 2+ months.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 23, 2009 8:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Neal before Zod!
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 23, 2009 9:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno man
I saw Zod hit a homer 50,004 feet using Superman as a bat.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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by zenbitz on Jul 24, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The game plays faster
As one moves up to new levels, each new level should add
increased speed of play, and increased consistency at the
league level. If a 21 year old has mastered one level then
it would be nice to see if he moves up to a slightly faster
game, with more consistent pitchers, if that player could
handle it. For the mostpart, the younger one is when he
can master a level, the better that bodes for the organization.
He has very little yet to prove at single A, and should have
a shot at starting to develop in a league that is faster and
more consistent. And, in this case that plays in a park that
is a pitchers’ park.
by bradleybear on Jul 23, 2009 9:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you bring up a good point
When can one say that a player has “mastered” a level? Is a partial season’s performance, perhaps driven by a major hot streak, considered “mastery?”
That said, I think Neal is, and has been, ready for a promotion for some time. The Giants may speak of guys needing to be moved from level to level, but when there’s a need, guys like Rohlinger, Crawford, or even Sandoval last year are going to fly through the system.
My guess is that Sabean anticipates some sort of trade, and wants to see 1) who is still with the big club at the deadline; 2) whether a trade necessitates moving someone down; and 3) whether someone either with the big club or at AA or AAA – even if organizational filler – is moved. That way instead of moving guys up and down and all around, the org will know what levels need what guys, etc, and Neal can be moved with certainty.
Also, they may just want to keep him out of Dodd. Who knows.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 23, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neal needs to move up ala the Panda
Some last year were urging for the Panda’s promotion.
We heard all sorts of stuff about his fielding being subpar,
and that he needed to catch more, and the guy kept raking
the ball. Finally he was moved to double A. He started slow,
and then turned it up again and never stopped. Neal seems
to have some power at 21, lets see what he can do in a real
pitchers park in Conn.
by bradleybear on Jul 23, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dodd isn’t an issue this time of year. The A+ to AA jump might, i guess (still want the promotion though)
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
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by haverecords on Jul 23, 2009 10:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure what their reasoning is, and there could be loads of reasons for it, but i’m not overly bothered. If it were my decision i’d have promoted him but it’s not like he’s old for his league & whilst it’s understandable for us fans to want promising prospects promoted we generally get overly keen to promote prospects midseason.
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by GiantFan on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You didn’t type “whilst,” did you? Stiff upper lip, eh what?
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by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t San Jose headed for the playoffs? If there’s no pressing reason to promote, I don’t really mind that group of guys getting some experience in what it feels like to win, play in higher pressure games, etc… create an expectation of success.
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by Johnny Disaster on Jul 24, 2009 6:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Conn. is (most likely) headed to the playoffs too
In fact, it seems like every one of the Giants’ farm teams except Fresno (and maybe Augusta) will be in the playoffs.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, they are doing a lot better than I remembered… their pitching is pretty darn good, isn’t it?.
Still I’m not in a hurry to promote. I’m sure Neal feels differently.
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by Johnny Disaster on Jul 24, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Augusta is a half game back of the division lead in the second half standings. If they can win the division, they’re in the playoffs. I’m not sure how the PCL playoffs work, but Fresno has the best record of non-division leaders in their division so I think they’re in contention for a wild card spot.
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't know about the PCL wild-card
That would be cool if they did have one, because I noticed a few days ago when I looked at the standings for all the teams in our farm system that Fresno was very unlucky to be in the same division with Sacramento – which has by far the best record in the PCL – meaning Fresno has almost no chance to catch them. If Fresno was in any of the other 4 divisions they would be at, or very near to, the top.
As for Augusta, I saw that they were clinging to the 2nd half lead due to their recent hot streak (until Kannapolis). But I don’t have much faith in their ability to sustain it since their roster is quite weak (reference their dismal 1st half record) – unless they can get some of the top players from Salem promoted to their roster in the next few weeks.
I don’t know if you realize it, but when all the teams records are added together, the Giants have the best farm system of any team in terms of winning percentage and average team standings. Every one of their teams are either in 1st or 2nd place in their divisions, with 3 of the teams owning the best record in their entire league. Of course, it’s no barometer or guarantee of future success, but it is pretty cool. I believe it’s positive to inculcate the young guys in a winning atmosphere as they move through the system – getting them to expect to be successful and contenders all the time.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the Greenjackets can get Matt Dominguez promoted to them soon…
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by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously you meant Chris Dominguez
You must have the name Matt on your mind what with the big trade of Matt Holliday today.
I think that Drew Biery and a reliever (like Chris Gloor) to replace Runzler would be perfect additions for Augusta also.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having C Dominguez in Augusta for the playoffs would be awesome
Although SK is leading their division and has the best record in the NWL so there’s likely playoff baseball in their future.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a bad tidbit there, on the affiliates’ combined record. Really what is impressive to me is CT holding the division lead for so long. And not just by a game or game and a half.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 24, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check out their record
You’ll see that they’ve been a totally different team once MadBum, T2, and Crawford got there. Ever since those 3 showed up they went from below .500 to dominating the league.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expect the same results in SF beginning 4/2011
by m34josh on Jul 25, 2009 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My dream scenario: Neal get’s promoted (eventually) and DESTORYS DODD by hitting a buttload of dingers.
by xanthan on Jul 24, 2009 7:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DESTROYS DODD WITH A MADISON BUMGARNER FACE!!!
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by tedfordfan on Jul 24, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still in despair.
BRING BACK MARMOL!
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by Zetsuboushita on Jul 24, 2009 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
awesome!
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by say hey nation on Jul 24, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JUST LIKE PABLO
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 24, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
De-storys? He will remove stories with his dingers? That’s impressive.
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by groug on Jul 24, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have wondered what part of the promotion equation relies on how the team is doing and whether they are set to make the playoffs, as the SJ Giants obviously are. Moving Neal up would really take the heart out of the SJ offense and I imagine doing well in the playoffs is a bit of a consideration although probably pretty minor considering other factors – which all seem to point toward a promotion at any time. When I was at the Visalia game last night I saw a guy in a Fresno Grizzlies shirt and cap and a very large bag prior to the game and wondered what was going one – was another SJ Giant about to be promoted and was he there to pick up the player’s equipment – turned out it was Parker, the Grizz mascot who was there to entertain the crowd.
by APGiantsFan on Jul 24, 2009 7:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’d have to think the SJ Giants were already a bit miffed that the Giants promoted MadBum, Alderson, Crawford and Posey… taking Neal out of the equation too would probably make them all >:\
I mean, it’s not like they can complain because they know what they’re there for, but it would still suck.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 24, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SJ knew from the beginning that MadBum and Alderson we’re there for only 5 weeks while they waited for the weather to heat up in Conn., and that Posey would be gone after about 3 months (unless he totally stunk up the place), so there was no miff-factor there. Now Crawford had to have been a surprise, but every minor league team goes into the season knowing that they’ll lose a few players to promotion during the season. What’s surprising to me is how well SJ has done even after losing all of those all-stars. They fought back to win their division’s 1st half title after MadBum, T2, and Crawford left. Then, I thought for sure they would slump after Posey left, but they’ve actually gotten hotter – they’ve won more than 80% of their games to begin the 2nd half.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think she means the teammates not the FO
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jul 24, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even the teammates knew it – it was in the papers and on the net.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They haven't promoted him because
the longer he stays at San Jose, the more appealing he is to other teams this year. Other teams have asked about him as part of a package, and I’m afraid Sabean is thinking about sending him away.
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by Buck Henry on Jul 24, 2009 9:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That would be a huge mistake.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jul 24, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s funny. I was thinking the exact opposite — sending him to AA would raise his profile. Shows where amateur psychology will get.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jul 24, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when Neal was batting, like, 9th to start the year? :’)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 24, 2009 9:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I remember laughing at the opening weekend lineups.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andy Skeels makes the worst lineups ever. He apparently likes to put the two worst hitters in the lineup at 1 and 2.
by superk1ng on Jul 24, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speed and slappiness.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at a position to be determined.
@#$% Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
by marcello on Jul 24, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/sac bunt in the first inning
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jul 24, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crawford started the year hitting 2nd..
I don’t think he was one of the worst hitters
Brandon Crawford: Your SF Giants 2011 Opening Day starting SS!
by Azmanz on Jul 24, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s just auditioning for Bochy’s job.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
21 year old who hits with power and for average
Just the type of guy we need to trade! I imagine we could have
trade Pablo last year, for a can of beans, and a right wing bottle
of Coors.
by bradleybear on Jul 24, 2009 9:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The real reason Neal hasn't been promoted:
He acted as lookout while Kevin Frandsen peed in Sabean’s cheerios.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, on the Curacao-SF express (via Arizona).
by EliminateMe on Jul 24, 2009 9:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A longer explanation about why it'd be crazy to promote him
Having been to a bunch of games there when I lived back East, I can’t more strongly disagree on the Dodd being a “time of year” thing – in fact, the summer is often worse than the spring. There’s a common misperception about that park, which is that it’s death for hitters. That’s not entirely true, but I’ll explain exactly why you don’t promote Neal if you want him to continue his development.
For groundball hitters, it’s no worse to play than anywhere else. For flyball hitters, it’s bad, but the alleys are so crazy deep that you can still be a decent doubles hitter. Where it’s devastating is for young power hitters, because you have this ugly 1-2 combo of alleys that just balloon out from the temptingly close-in corners (just over 300’) and these nice cool evening breezes blowing in off the ocean from 15 miles south (for the same reason that they do here in California, because the ocean is cooler than the land.)
The latter makes it a surprisingly nice place to watch a game since you never really get roasted – I don’t think I ever bought an ice cream, but definitely did the fried dough – which in the inland part of the Northeast happens an awful lot in July and August. And conveniently they only play one day game a week (on Sundays) and start early for night games (used to be 6:05, now 6:35) for making sure the kids can get in bed by no later than 9:30, which means games start just about as the evening winds pick up.
Unfortunately, home plate happens to face due south, which means the hitters face the wind coming in from center, which means the combination of the deep alleys and wind means hard hit fly balls just go out there to die. (It’s not Candlestick windy by any means, but there’s often a good breeze.) Usually that results in one of two things if you’re a power hitter. Power guys either totally screw up their strokes trying to become dead pull hitters since aiming for the corners are the only way balls go out, or even worse, they try to hit the bejeezus out of the ball every time up. Both adaptations tend to turn someone into a strikeout machine.
Or to quote Steve Decker from Joe Perez’s (the Norwich Bulletin beat writer assigned to the Defenders when they play at home) blog , “Let’s start with Tuesday’s game. I’m glad I spoke with Steve Decker before the game because he was in a closed-door meeting much too long afterward for me to speak with him then. The conversation was foreshadowing. He told me that he thinks guys press too much at Dodd Stadium opposed to on the road. He added the one thing they don’t have at home is the three-run homer.” Amen.
Can’t find splits for home/away for the Dodd over the last few years, but I’ll give you two players numbers this year to really illustrate the points I’m making (you’ll figure out #1 very quickly, but may not know #2):
Player #1
SJG: .371/.445/.600/1.045, 10 BB, 32 K, 2 2B, 6 HR, 17 RBI
CT Overall: .238/.287/.333/.620, 16 BB, 70 K, 13 2B, 2 HR, 15 RBI
CT Home: .241/.280/.330/.610, 6 BB, 35 K, 7 2B, 1 HR, 5 RBI
CT Away: .234/.293/.336/.629, 10 BB, 35 K, 6 2B, 1 HR, 10 RBI
Player #2
Overall: .302/.339/.478/.817, 21 BB, 53 K, 29 2B, 11 HR, 69 RBI
Home: .307/.331/.458/.789, 7 BB, 25 K, 15 2B, 2 HR, 27 RBI
Away: .299/.345/.493/.838, 14 BB, 28 K, 14 2B, 9 HR, 42 RBI
Number 1 is of course Brandon Crawford, and his tough time adapting to AA neither surprised me nor worries me all that much. Two of the things that were known about him in the draft were that he a. chased a lot of offspeed stuff for strikeouts and b. was often pull happy. At AA he’s now consistently seeing guys with decent breaking stuff (=routine but reasonably tough adaptation for a guy like him if he wants to be a big leaguer), and he’s now in a home ballpark that I’m sure has him trying to pull the heck out of the ball every time he gets to the plate (=disaster and clearly affecting him outside of Dodd). I haven’t seen much video, but I’d wager good money he’s screwed up his stroke quite nicely. Get him to Richmond next year, get him to stop pressing, and we’ll get a much better sense of his true talent level.
Number would be Brett Pill, who I will now be paying a lot more attention to since what it tells me is that he’s really learned to adapt to where he’s playing. Remember, he led the South Atlantic league in doubles a couple years back – and continues to hit them. But he’s also showing me something else with those numbers, which is that he gets hits where he can, shows some patience (well, at least more than most Giants prospects), doesn’t worry if what he hits goes out of the park, but when given a neutral park still hits for a decent amount of pop. Rather different than #1, and to me a fairly important characteristic for a big league hitter. Still not really the plate presence you want for a corner infielder and I don’t know if he can play anywhere else, but someone I’m keeping a closer eye on going forward.
With the move to Richmond almost certain to be announced August 1 after a crazy long delay – the Eastern League’s been trying to get a new owner through some not-so-nice methods, the real estate market collapse blew up the deal for a new Richmond ballpark, and local ownership in Richmond backed out – why bother potentially blowing up someone’s development if you don’t need to? This incidentally, is why Posey was never going to AA even if they weren’t high on Williams since you didn’t want to risk him doing the same since you really need him in the bigs next year. My guess is the reason Sandoval did fine is that he a. rarely tries to hit for the fences b. hits ropes a lot more often than bombs which largely offset the fly ball issue and c. minor league pitchers just gave up throwing him breaking stuff since he hit it all over the park.
So that’s the extremely long version of why Neal isn’t getting promoted this year, since there’s no room for him at AAA and it’s too big a leap in terms of pitching talent, it doesn’t make sense to put him at AA if you don’t really need to rush him, and last but not least it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he’s being showcased and gaudy numbers make for a much better window.
by HaroldS on Jul 24, 2009 3:37 PM PDT reply actions 6 recs
great post
Thanks for that. It’s always helpful to me to get a lot of new, first-hand, information on our prospects.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 24, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the information on Dodd – that was the most cogent analysis of that stadium I have read and gives insight into the lack of power numbers for players there.
by APGiantsFan on Jul 24, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic
We all complain about Dodd, but that really explains why.
Thanks Harold.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 25, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AWESOME POST!!
As someone who is a regular at Dodd, I must say you sure hit the nail on the head. I do know that some of the Giants “brass” told a couple of the Defenders players that they needed to hit 20 home runs this year to be considered prospects. A few of them have been told that they need to pull everything to hit it over the fence. Just another thing to screw the players up. They call it an “invisible wall” at Dodd, wherein the ball looks like it is going out, and then just dies. The night games are nice, even cold at times. Hitting for doubles seems to be the way to go in that park, in my opinion. I think Decker has done a good job trying to get his players to adapt to Dodd Stadium. They definitely hit more HR’s on the road, although Pill did hit a 3-run bomb at Dodd last night in the first inning. Yeah, yeah, I’m always bringing up Pill. Sorry, I’ve seen him and think he is a very smart and talented player. If you can put up good numbers in Connecticut, imagine what a player would do in Fresno. Thanks for enlightening everyone on just what it is like to play in Connecticut.
by flyonthewall on Jul 25, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they’re doing such a good job of adapting to Dodd, then why do they have such a crappy record there this year? They’re almost the exact opposite of the SF Giants – mediocre at home, but great on the road. It seems counter-intuitive with the great pitching that they have. I wonder if opposing hitters play at Dodd so infrequently that it hasn’t had a chance to psychologically affect their hitting as it has the Defender hitters that play there so frequently.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 25, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks – it’s been a few years since I’ve been back, so I’m glad I didn’t forget anything. By the way, when did they change the starts to 6:35 or did I misremember driving through commute traffic to get there?
It’s disappointing but not surprising to hear the brass still pounding on kids to miraculously hit for power there and thus messing up their heads and stroke. Dumb. I suspect a number of key members of the front office have never set foot in the stadium, let alone watched prospects there live. The team’s come a long way in terms of its farm system and I’m not in the burn-Tidrow-at-the-stake-crowd, but it’s just one of several confirmations his job should be doing what he does very well (scouting and rating pitching) instead of still being allowed to run the whole thing.
By the way, the Dodd effect is also a good example of why I take pure statistical analysis – especially in the minors – with a big grain of salt. I use a lot of quant work professionally and am a big fan of finding new ways to crunch numbers and see what results, but it’s awfully hard to control for stuff unless you really know why else it might be happening.
by HaroldS on Jul 26, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, you even know how the Giants brass works! Actually, Sabean, Tidrow and Stanley have made appearances there this year. Have seen Stanley on more than one occasion. I have also heard there is some job confusion going on! LOL
Nice to see there are SOME intelligent people who don’t just look at the numbers, but the overall picture.
by flyonthewall on Jul 26, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, then it’s better than it used to be – I’d actually heard from someone at Dodd they’d never seen Sabean or Tidrow in person, and between that and the Lewis/Ortmeier teams was when I realized just how bad the big club was going to be in a few years. I guess the responsibilities mess is what happens when fire a bunch of your minor league staff without firing them.
Speaking of Lewis by the way, his experience down at AA is why I’m not convinced he’s completely done as a big leaguer, although I certainly think he is with the Giants. Had much the same thing happen in terms of being pounded over the head there and blowing up his approach – sound familiar to anyone hearing about how he was going to hit 20 HRs? – but he did eventually recover well enough to make it to the show. A second comeback to at least 4th outfielder status isn’t impossible, just not in SF.
It’s also why I’m still not giving up on Valdez, since if you saw him back then you know what he’s capable of, and by all accounts his arm’s back to where it was even if his mind isn’t. Again, of course, probably not with the Giants.
And as for Crawford, if the brass was smart they put him up because his need to audition consistently against breaking stuff outweighed the possibility of him screwing up his stroke. If they’re dumb they just wanted to push him up to see if he could put up power numbers in a park impossible in which to do so.
Based on your commentary, probably a bit of both.
by HaroldS on Jul 26, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You obviously know a lot more about past/current players and their situations than I do. I just know a little about some of the players that are, or have been, in Connecticut the past few years. In my opinion, they were smart to bring Crawford up to AA to see what he can do in a pitcher’s park. I can never quite figure out what labels a player a “prospect” anyway. Obviously, where they were drafted and how much money they received are huge factors. Since you mentioned Pill, for instance, he is one of the players I have been impressed with in Connecticut also. He has done very well this year – but according to most of the posters here, he’s not considered a “prospect”. What more does a player like him, in Connecticut, have to do to gain that status? Or are most of these comments just from people who don’t have a clue? Enlighten me….
by flyonthewall on Jul 26, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got me what they consider a prospect outside of signing bonus and internal political championing, except when the numbers are so good they basically get hit with a baseball bat if they don’t notice.
Incidentally, I’ve never understood why Sabean hasn’t made it out there at least for a week given his dad is in NH. Perfect way to get out of the office for a week – go see your AA team’s starting rotation one time through, take ill dad to Sox games, and if it’s a road trip then go see the big club back there too.
by HaroldS on Jul 28, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think signing bonus and internal political championing, as you said, are ALL the Giants look at to determine who their prospects are. I’m sure most of the players know they are also playing to be seen by the teams they are playing against, especially if you are in Connecticut. Seems like they send guys there to watch them fail, which is why I don’t know why they sent Alderson and Bum there.
That is interesting about Sabean – also very sad.
by flyonthewall on Jul 28, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What leads you to say that exactly? Certainly Ryan Sadowski’s promotion to the majors has nothing to do with draft status or signing bonus. I mean think of all the guys far far off the prospect charts who’ve been given significant jobs with this Giants organization — Ryan Jensen was a starter for over a year (temporarily holding off much higher profile pitching prospects); Jonathan Sanchez was 27th rounder who’s lightning rise seems to be related to nothing other than his lightning stuff; Jeremy Accardo went entirely undrafted; Joe Nathan was brought out of retirement as a SS to become a converted pitcher, his first promotion to the bigs was a bolt out of the blue, and his second came after most people had given up on his interminable TJ recovery.
Last year alone we saw the promotion (and very short major league opportunity) of Clay Timpner, Brian Horwitz, Travis Denker, Bocock, Rohlinger, Burriss, Espinelli, Hinshaw, Sadler, Matos, Misch, Ochoa, etc etc. I mean you can blast them for giving players such short windows of opportunity (and I do!), but I really don’t see the justification for slamming them for NOT giving players without pedigrees an opportunity. The history just isn’t with you on that criticism.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jul 28, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When was Sabean ever at Dodd????
http://gregsconnecticutdefenders.blogspot.com
adopted parent of Bond, Brock Bond...
by greg8370 on Jul 27, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry – correction on that. Don’t remember Sabean ever being there – just Tidrow and Stanley.
by flyonthewall on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I said was that Decker has done a good job “trying” to get his players to adapt to Dodd. It’s just tough to play there for any team.
by flyonthewall on Jul 25, 2009 4:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Naturally...
They’re holding him back so he can be the big name to headline the first Double-A team in Richmond!
J/K guys…
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Jul 25, 2009 10:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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