Schulman says Giants chasing Duke+Sanchez?
I'm guessing the version of the deal Schulman keeps hearing involves Alderson...... I don't know enough about Duke to know if I like that or not, thoughts?
7 months ago
sam23
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Certainly makes you wonder about Johnson’s condition. If he’s out for longer than 2 or 3 weeks then I can see the motivation. At some point I’d like to see our rotation get a little more RH, though.
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by Roger on Jul 13, 2009 6:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If Pittsburgh trades its two all stars for prospects, I think their fans are going to be very unhappy, not to mention their players, but I sure like this deal. He didn’t mention Alderson, so I’m not sure where you got that, but some Pittsburgh writer mentioned a Sanchez for Sanchez deal though. However if Sabean is looking for MORE pitching, then putting Jonathan in this deal doesn’t make sense.
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by rxmeister on Jul 13, 2009 6:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was just guessing. I can’t imagine Pitt gives up both those guys without one of our top 4 prospects, can you? ……Figure MadBum and Posey are off the table and since Pitt seems to be seeking young arms Alderson seems like the guy…… you have a better guess at what it would take?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 13, 2009 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alderson is probably a good guess, but I would think the Pirates scouts are saying the same things about him that we are saying these days, and that is that his stuff isn’t that impressive. I would certainly hold out for Bumgarner if I were them, but the Giants’ won’t go that route. I think if the Giants are smart they can get Sanchez cheap, because I don’t see a big market for him, but if the Pirates want to move Zach Duke, they can probably get more elsewhere than the Giants could offer. The Giants’ have more of a carefree attitude to this deadline, because they want to be in it this year, but they don’t want to compromise the future to do so. If the Pirates are smart, they can probably find another team that’s a little more desperate.
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by rxmeister on Jul 13, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yuck. Duke sucks. I’m pretty sure Alderson could come up right now and post a similar <4 K/9 if that’s really enticing to the front office.
by KCE on Jul 13, 2009 7:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
no thanks to Duke. He’s having a nice fluky year but he’s only an All-Star b/c Cain got hit by a liner and Charlie Manuel is too lazy to look farther than the closest dugout to fine a replacement. I certainly wouldn’t give up Alderson for him.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 13, 2009 8:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
*fine = find
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 13, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s not just Duke you’re getting though, it’s also an all star second baseman. Don’t you think the bloom is off the rose with Alderson? He’s not going to be a big time major league starting pitcher with his stuff.
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by rxmeister on Jul 13, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a pretty ridiculous comment about Alderson, especially in support for a trade for Duke given his lack of “stuff”
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by GiantFan on Jul 13, 2009 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why would the bloom be off the rose?
After looking at what he’s done recently, he’s been fairly decent at worst and it doesn’t make me forget what he’s done overall. It isn’t enough for me to decide to deal him in a package for a no power 2b and a soft-tossing lefty.
I certainly wouldn’t Sanchez and Alderson for Sanchez and Duke. That’s not even close to a good deal (I’m not suggesting you’re saying it is, but that seems to be in the realm of what the deal might be.) Of course, I never thought Sanchez for Sanchez was a good deal either, and that was before the no no.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 13, 2009 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the deal would be Alderson AND Jonathan Sanchez. I would think Alderson is the substitute for Jonathan. If it’s true that Sabean is interested in Duke, it would probably because he thinks he needs extra pitching with the injuries to RJ and Cain. If he’s trading Sanchez for Duke, he’s merely making a lateral move of a starter for a starter. As for Alderson, his numbers are ordinary at Connecticut, and let’s not forget that Ct. is a pitcher’s paradise.
As for whether I’d make the trade or not, I would think it depends on what the Giants’ think of Alderson’s future. There’s a very good chance that they’ll be lucky if he’s ever as good as Zach Duke (or as bad depending on your opinion of him) And again, you’re also getting a .300 hitter back in the deal in Freddy Sanchez, who is a nice upgrade over Juan Uribe.
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by rxmeister on Jul 13, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt Sabes is thinking that Cain’s elbow is a more than 5-15 day concern. He certainly wouldn’t panic until he sees the results of his next bullpen session. As for Johnson, we have better in-house candidates than Duke to replace him over the next 6 weeks (if he’s out that long) in J. Sanchez and K. Pucetas. Lastly, I’m sure other teams are willing to offer much more for Duke than we would, unless we have a deal in place to immediatley flip him to another team that desires him but have a match-up problem with what the Pirates are looking for.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really, because I would think the opposite.
The addition of Zach Duke makes the most sense if Sanchez is the one being traded, because it would open another hole in the rotation.
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by Bhaakon on Jul 13, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Duke has lousy peripherals, but c’mon!! Kevin Pucetas, a mid level prospect in the minor leagues is a “better in house candidate than Duke?” I realize that Duke is a borderline all star who made it because Cain was injured, but the guy WILL be pitching in the major league all star game this year. Duke was also a terrific minor league pitcher who came up as a rookie and looked to be a phenom. You’re really overrating Giants’ prospects. I’m not saying that they won’t be any good, or even that you’re wrong about the kids you have specifically mentioned, but you seem to think that success in A ball is proof of major league success. There’s lots of guys flipping burgers that were successful in A ball.
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by rxmeister on Jul 13, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke from a couple of years ago is not the same pitcher as Duke now. The Pirates fucked with his mechanics way too much and it made him into a mediocre pitcher.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 13, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has been solid this year. I wouldn’t mind having him as a number 3 starter, I just don’t want Sabean to give away the farm to have him included in a Sanchez deal
by m34josh on Jul 13, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're selling Pucetas way too short
Sure, he’s not at Duke’s level just yet, but his overall minor league record now sits at a jaw-dropping 40-9! To say that he’s been only “successful in A ball” is a gross understatement. He’s won over 75% of his decisions at every stop.
He currently sits at 8-2 in the PCL this year with a very good 3.57 ERA and other peripheral stats. He’s 2nd in wins, 2nd in innings pitched, and 6th in WHIP in the entire league (16 teams). All this while pitching for a team that plays horrible defense behind him. The only blip on his screen is the 11 HRs he’s allowed so far. However, the PCL is a notoriously hitter-dominated league with many bandbox parks to launch HRs from.
His results this year do nothing to take away from the luster of his dominating performance last year in SJ.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should have clarified that I meant Pucetas was a better option when seen through the perspective of what we’d have to give up to get Duke. The main in-house guy that I was referring to was J. Sanchez. I still stand by my assertion that he’s a better option than Duke, especially when you consider that we’d probably have to give up J. Sanchez, Pucetas and 2 or 3 others to get F. Sanchez and Duke. That doesn’t add up for me. Oh, and to borrow your phrasing, there’s a lot of guys that were selected to the ASG that never amounted to much afterwards.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This would’ve been an interesting debate before the no-no. I wonder how many people would honestly have said they would prefer Dirty’s 5.30 era versus Duke’s 3.28. I can honestly say I would go for Duke, but sentimental value has now made it a coin flip for me. I think Duke will be a solid #3-4 start for years, still not sure Dirty will ever keep it together for a whole season
by m34josh on Jul 13, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To the best of my knowledge, nobody on this site ever mentioned trading Dirty for Duke, or any other pitcher, until the past 24 hours. Before the no-no it was always trading him alone or with others for a big bat.
To be honest, it wasn’t that I was adverse to trading Dirty, I just didn’t want to do it at a point that I perceived was a real low ebb in his intrinsic value on the market. To me it was analagous to buying high and selling low in the stock market – a real disaster move. I believed that he could go to the pen and work on his issues and if he could put together a string of good relief efforts at any time then his value would go up considerably.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WRONG
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by Natto on Jul 13, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, no real interest in Duke despite his good year so far. His career K/9 of 4.6 and WHIP of 1.45 are pretty ugly and he’s a pretty obvious candidate for regression back to an utterly uninspiring pitcher.
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by GiantFan on Jul 13, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the original deal was basically Sanchez for Sanchez and now our Sanchez’ value just went up, so Sabean is saying “I want a pitcher (not a belly-itcher) coming back in the deal.”
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by Goofus on Jul 13, 2009 8:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Know
Belly-Itchers are pretty nice when you get to be Sabean’s age – and we won’t even get into back-scratchers.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s a no brainer to trade Alderson for Sanchez and Duke…. but I don’t think that’s all we would be giving up. I’m sure the Pirates would want more coming back and i guess it depends on who else we would be sending their way.
by OTTOMATIC on Jul 13, 2009 8:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Unless the Giants are including J. Sanchez and 2 other pitching prospects this deal makes no sense for either side. The Pirates need SP. Why would they give up their best SP in any trade where they’re only getting one in return. The Giants don’t need SP – in fact they’re willing to trade it away. Why would the Giants want to trade for any SP that isn’t on the level of Cain/Lincecum – it fills no weakness.
The Giants only want F. Sanchez, and the Pirates could get much more from another team desperate for SP if they really want to move Duke. This isn’t the NBA where you have to match up salaries when completing any trade.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yooza not makin much sense
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by hairball on Jul 13, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re contradicting yourself here. Higher up, you said that Jonathan Sanchez is better than Zach Duke, but here you’re saying that the Pirates could get more than J. Sanchez if they want to move Duke. Which one is it?
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by rxmeister on Jul 13, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a contradiction
1. It’s all about supply and demand. Other teams want and need Duke more than we do, so they are willing to offer more for him. We have great pitching (both starting and relief) and our SP will be in surplus once RJ returns. But we desperately would like a RH bat (preferably with power), therefore we’re a good trading partner for F. Sanchez, but not Duke.
2. IMO, J. Sanchez is better than Duke, and his potential is much higher. I never once advocated trading him to Pittsburgh for F. Sanchez. I worded it awkwardly, but If you read my post above carefully you’ll see that I stated that from the Pirates’ perspective they want at least J. Sanchez and 2 pitching prospects for Duke and F. Sanchez, but from the Giants’ perspective they should only give up J. Sanchez if they’re getting back a SP on the level of Cain/Lincecum in return – Duke doesn’t come anywhere near to fitting this bill.
3. I’ve been on record in other threads saying that now is not the time to trade J. Sanchez (I wrote this after he was sent to the pen and before he pitched the no-no), because we would be trading from a position of weakness. Sanchez was at a low ebb in his value and it was likely to go up even if he could just be an effective reliever for the next couple of months. I turned out to be proven right much quicker than I expected, bedause of his no-no and RJ’s injury.
4. I have also gone on record in other threads saying that we should only offer 1 of our MLB relievers, and 2 or 3 B-/C level prospects for F. Sanchez. The Pirates are dangling F. Sanchez mainly as a salary dump, but also because they want to get something tangible for him before he’s a FA at the end of 2010. We hold the upper hand in this deal. We already lead the wild-card standings, and we’re playing better each month. Of course, that presupposes that no other team is competing with us to trade for him – which might be a faulty assumption. The longer the Pirates wait to trade F. Sanchez the less valuable he becomes to a trading partner. If they don’t trade him by the end of this month they’d have to wait until the offseason when his value would be much less. Of course, he could be traded in August, but I doublt he’d make it through waivers then. Certainly some wild-card contending team like the Rockies, Brewers, Cards would put in a claim if only to keep him away from the Giants.
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by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Sanchez is better than Duke, (and I agree completely about the higher ceiling) and the Pirates are asking for that much for Duke, then why aren’t we asking for much more than that for Jonathan Sanchez? Shouldn’t we be looking around the league for a better package? Why would other teams be willing to give more for Duke, knowing (as we do) that Sanchez is better?
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by rxmeister on Jul 14, 2009 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bloom off the rose?
Alderson is 20yrs old and pitching successfully at AA, and now he sucks somehow? He was never expected to be Porcello. He is perfectly on track to be just what he was expected to be…. a solid #2-3 starter.
BTW Alderson and little else for Duke and Sanchez is a trade I’d be cool with
by BigDaddyK on Jul 13, 2009 8:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Where have you been? Alderson sucks. NO SWINGTHROUGH STUFF
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 13, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe this should be a fanpost
b/c I didn’t get the memo
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 13, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't fall in
(hint: who also has NO SWINGTHROUGH STUFF!!!!!)
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by Viliphied on Jul 13, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is a pretty ridiculous thing to say about Alderson
why would the bloom be off the rose? if you look at his stats from Connecticut this year they are pretty close to what he did in San Jose last year, his K rate is down, but so is his walk rate (although not significantly) his ERA and FIP are up slightly (but had nowhere to go but up). Are people really overreacting that much to one unnamed scout in Baseball Prospectus who basically said “he is certain to pitch in the majors but he won’t be a number 1 starter?” He just made Baseball America’s midseason top 50 prospects list, so they obviously don’t think the bloom is off the rose.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 13, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alderson’s rose has been deflowered. Or something
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by Useful_Idiot on Jul 13, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame the Mayor of 311. We bring him a semi-willing subject to deflower once a week to appease him.
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by Goofus on Jul 14, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a bit concerned with his K-rate, tbh. I guess it does help that the walk-rate is so low though and I’m probably worried over nothing.
That said, I don’t think he’s got #1 or 2 starter potential and I’d probably be most willing to trade him, of all the big Four. Not for Zach Duke though.
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by jponry on Jul 13, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
when I say “the bloom is off the rose,” I’m not referring to his minor league stats, I’m referring to the scouting reports. If the guy is throwing fastballs at 88mph at this age, what will he be throwing five years from now, after a few hundred more innings in his arm? He’s going to have to win at the major league level with a Barry Zito fastball, and off speed stuff not even as good as Zito’s.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jul 14, 2009 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t believe RJ will be a regular contributing starter for the Giants in the 2nd half. Shoulder injuries at any age or worrisome. Shoulder injuries for 45-year old players with high milage are red flags, flashing red lights, the red scare, Red Skelton and Redd Foxx all rolled into one.
Bringing in another SP for the 2nd half is not the worst idea in the world depending on what the price is. You certainly can’t take anyone out of the current rotation to fill that need.
I think the Giants need to add a SP to their shopping list in addition to a 2B or LF. With that said, I really don’t want Duke.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 13, 2009 9:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A couple comedians, huh?
I didn’t realize that shoulder injuries were so funny.
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by thehavenot on Jul 13, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke is pretty mediocre, though at least his walks are low. I don’t mind the idea of picking up a SP but I’m meh on him.
I also am not all that high on Alderson at the moment, but I’d rather not give him up if that’s what it takes to go from Sanchez to Sanchez+Duke.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 13, 2009 9:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I wouldn’t mind dealing Alderson (obviously depending on what we’d get in return), but not if he’s packaged with Sanchez
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by Useful_Idiot on Jul 13, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember the Morris and Schmidt trades?
Those were funny.
by i wish we were good on Jul 13, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
MATT MORRIS AND BARRY BONDS FOR ADAM JONES AND WLADIMIR BALENTIEN
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jul 13, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GINATS BRAZS!!!!!!11!!!
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jul 13, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would we want Duke or Sanchez? I think Uribe will do a fine job manning second base in the second half. And if we needed to push him over to third while sending Pablo to first, Frandsen is a fine option once-or-twice a week option at second.
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by NateisGreat on Jul 13, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you meant to reply to me
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jul 13, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Juan Uribe is a career .255 hitter who is hitting .301 so far this year. If you expect that to continue, fine, but I expect him to revert to career form, which probably means he’ll hit about .220 the rest of the way.
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by rxmeister on Jul 14, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's not really how it works
If he reverts to form, he will hit about .255 the rest of the way
by FairweatherFan on Jul 14, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that is how it works
His “form” is to hit about .250 for a season. He’s hitting .301 after just 183 ABs. Looking at his gamelogs over the pasty two years:
- 2008 – Only 4 days with a BA over .250
- 2007 – Only 14 days with a BA over .250
The rest of the time is pretty ugly. Hitting .220 the rest of the way would hardly be surprising.
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by Goofus on Jul 14, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you meant to reply to me either
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jul 14, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did they already do I Can Has Cheezburger night there? How can we take WLOLdimir BLOLentien away from such an event?
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 13, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke is crap. No thanks.
I’d rather get Ian Snell and Sanchez. Snell is rotting in AAA right now because the Pirates are idiots.
The Pirates can pay most of his contract or they can get back a lot less for Freddy in the deal.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 13, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like what you're saying.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
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by baetown415 on Jul 13, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is with all the Zach Duke hate, his career FIP sits at 4.19, its not like his numbers are completely terrible. I think he would do very well on a good defensive team like the Pirates. And to all those who say a J. Sanchez trade makes no sense for the Pirates, this is exactly the kind of move Neal Huntington would pull. Trade an already useful piece without much upside (Nyjer Morgan) for a boom or bust player (Milledge). That is why he would trade Duke + Freddy for Jonathan + something else
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by TexasRanger on Jul 14, 2009 3:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the eipitome of buying high
Although Sabean has already showed in the past, it’s what he loves (Ponson, Rowand, etc.)
by NeifiChicken on Jul 14, 2009 9:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
(Trying to replt to Neifichicken)
In fairness, Sabean has done a lot of “buying low” too. (Yabu, Mohr, Herges, Uribe, Miller, Medders ,etc.)
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by Goofus on Jul 14, 2009 11:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs




















