Rolen for prospects?
by Bobeau on Jul 13, 2009 12:39 AM PDT
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Printin Major League Trade Rumors on Friday there was this:
J.P. Ricciardi would like prospects in return for Scott Rolen, whose contract the Jays wouldn't mind shedding. Rolen's on a 25-game hit streak, with a .330 average and an .876 OPS, so the $16.5MM remaining on his deal before the end of next year is palatable, especially when you consider his strong defense.
Should we try to get Rolen? The Giants have a good team chemistry, would he fit in? And if yes, what prospects should we offer (besides our untouchables)?
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nah
upgrading one of the middle infield positions would be much easier and much more cost effective.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jul 13, 2009 1:55 AM PDT reply actions
2b is the new 3b
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™
No. Fanshot, yes.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Wronghanded Affeldt pitches right
by Giant among Angels on Jul 13, 2009 6:38 AM PDT reply actions
You beat me too it
I was just going to post on this when I saw yours. My thinking was that if we can’t find a decent upgrade at 2b or RF/LF that won’t cost us an arm & a leg, then Rolen would be a nice alternative. He plays great D, kills LH pitching (our weakness) and has a history of playing great in the postseason. We could give him enough days off to ensure that he doesn’t wear down.
He turns 35 next April. His career stats are: 284/.370/.500, and this year he’s hitting 320/377/.469. He is hitting much better against lefties: .351/449/.541 (OPS = .990)
My thinking was that Pablito would slide to 1B for the rest of this year, but he would spell Rolen at 3B once or twice a week (and Ishi would take over 1B) against a rightie. Then next year Pablito would mainly play C, while Rolen plays out his final year and we wait for Buster (Ishi or some FA takes over at 1B). I prefer him over Rios due to his proven postseason studliness and the shortness of his contract. IMO, Rios would just tie us down to another long-term OF contract like Rowand’s that would kill our flexibility.
Due to Rolen’s age and his big money contract I don’t believe the Jays will be able to ask for high level prospects. This is mainly a salary dump for them to free up money to sign Halladay or go for some young FAs in the offseason. My thoughts were that we offer them something like 3 of the following:
1. 1 out of: Merkin, or Medders
2. 1 out of Rohlinger, Jesus Guzman, or Matt Downs
3. 1 out of Darryl Maday, Ben Snyder, or Clayton Tanner
What do you think – too much, too little, or don’t want Rolen?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Moneywise he’s due $11M this year and $11M next year. We’re past the halfway mark, so the total would come to less than $16M if we complete the deal before the deadline. He does have a no-trade clause, so he’d have to approve the ttrade. Also, he gets a $4M bonus in 2010, but St. Louis agreed to pay that to complete the trade to the Jays 2 years ago.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think it’s safe to say that Sandoval will never go back to being a catcher.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
This wouldn’t be a bad plan at all. I presume his contract runs out after 2010? I would definitely trade as much as Medders, Downs, and Snyder (imho, the best of each of your groups) for 1+ yrs. of Scott Rolen. That wouldn’t derail the youth movement nor lose our best young prospects.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
I don’t really want Rolen, because I don’t want Ishi out of the lineup. He also seems to have lost his power, and since he’s hitting about 40 points higher than his career average, I expect him to slump the second half of the season. However, the one positive thing is that it would finally get Molina out of the cleanup spot. (I assume) I can’t watch him kill rallies anymore. I’m more intrigued by the Schulman rumor that he hears Freddy Sanchez and Zach Duke to the Giants. Don’t know what it would cost in terms of prospects, but it’s two all stars that would help the Giants now and in the future.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Without a doubt this is a better package than Rolen, but I think the players that we’d have to give up would be substantially more in numbers and much higher on our prospect list. The thing I like about Rolen is that he should be cheap in terms of prospect.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
This
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Jul 13, 2009 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions
/ starts smacking head on deck.
Not again. Please not again.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
He’s only 26. I don’t think it’s out of the question for him to maintain these numbers, or something close to them. I think he’d fit in just fine as a 5 starter, especially if he’s obtained along with Freddy Sanchez
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 13, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t see Rolen slumping that much as long as he’s well-rested and healthy. If you look at his record he usually hits well above his norm when he’s in a pennant chase. I believe that Rolen will hit as many HRs as Ishi will the rest of this season, with a much higher OB and SLG. And he won’t be god-awful on the road like Ishi has been. I also don’t want to write off Ishi yet. This scenario takes the pressure off him this year and lets him take over 1B again next year.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I don’t see Rolen slumping that much as long as he’s well-rested and healthy. If you look at his record he usually hits well above his norm when he’s in a pennant chase.
Oh no you didn’t!
(That sound you just heard was xanthan’s monitor exploding)
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
I also don’t want to write off Ishi yet. This scenario takes the pressure off him this year and lets him take over 1B again next year.
But I’d rather know if Ishi is a long-term solution at 1B this year as opposed to delaying that answer till next year. As much as I want TI to succeed, I still have plenty of doubts about his future success. I’d like to know whether we need to go out and get a 1B in the offseason this year as opposed to the middle of next year.
TI has been hitting better of late, but he has yet to have a month where he puts everything together. He hit for a good average and drew walks in May, hit for power in June, and seems to be hitting for power and average in July thus far, but with few walks. The only thing he has done consistently is strike out at a good clip. I wanna see a month where his walks and hits for decent power and average.
by Squire_Boone on Jul 13, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
one more rbi guy
That would be my argument for taking Rolen: RBIs! And getting Molina out of the clean-up spot. Even though I certainly hear the argument that Rolen would crimp Ishi’s or Pablo’s development. But maybe Rolen could play some first too, and have Pablo more regularly at 3rd. Hmm. Well maybe it is not so easy – unless Ishi is part of a trade. But I do think Rolen’s this year and next year contract is much better than Rio’s 2014 contract – and Rolen does hit for power and can drive in RBIs. Plus he will have a vengence factor with the Cardinals. It caught my attention as being a whole heck of a lot better than Sanchez at 2B though.
I forgot to mention that last time Sabean spoke on the matter, he said that he was no longer interested in players that were going to be free agents after this season. This might be why you hear the Jays talking to the Reds about Rolen, but not the Giants.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Rolen’s got another year left on his contract.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Rolen is in same contract situation as F. Sanchez
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
You guys are right, I just looked it up. That’s even worse, because he’s due 11 million for 2009, and the guy is rarely healthy. I guess acquiring Rolen would be the end of Travis Ishikawa, and I’m not sure the Giants want to go that route.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
No. Ishi would regain 1B in 2010 and Panda would slide to C for 1 year. We could get Ishi enough ABs the rest of this year by resting Rolen liberally. This would also help to keep him healthy.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
That’s not the plan though. The plan is for Buster to take over as catcher in 2010. I don’t want Sandoval to catch in 2010. I don’t want to see him jacked around. Put him at third and leave him there. He’s starting to pick up the position. If you get Rolen, Pablo will be a bad first baseman in 2009, a bad catcher in 2010, and then have to learn third base all over again in 2011. This could even affect his offense, and a year in the squat might affect his speed. I think the best thing to do with Pablo is leave him alone.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I don’t think anybody truly believes Buster will be ready at the start of 2010. I think it would be optimistic to expect him to be ready before the ASG next year.
As for Pablo, he’s not the ++ deender that Ishi is, but he’s above average at boyh C and 1B – nowhere near bad. Under this plan Pablo would still get time at 3B, so he wouldn’t go stale. He’s already shown that he can thrive while rotating between C, 1B, and 3B = last year he raked for 2 months splitting time at all 3 (but playing mainly C) and this year he exploded offensively during the 3 weeks that he was forced to play only 1B when his arm was hurt.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I agree with rx on this one.
Panda could slide back to C in 2010 but I’ll go on record right now saying " I don’t like that move." We finally have a hard to fill position filled and we shouldn’t mess with it. Well above average over all production from 3rd baseman is almost like finding a very good SS or very good Cf. Just dig through past rosters of different teams and look at what get marched out there year after year at third base once outside of the elite players. It is pretty dreadful. Sign a journeyman C and leave panda at third.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Well...
Unless he regresses, I’d say it’s a given that he gets at least a cup of coffee next year.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Agreed
But, I don’t think it’s wise to count on him starting full time to begin the year.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
And even Wieters has gotten off to a slow start in the majors so far… and though we all know the plan is for Buster to finish this year in AAA, he still has played the whole season (an impressive season, no doubt) as a 22 y/o in high-A ball.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I don’t know if I would call it a slow start. Obviously he can do much better than this, but he’s already hitting like a league average catcher.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
Well, he hit .247/.297/.388 in his first month and change, which I think I’d characterize as a slow start.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
clean up hitter!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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Well the Jays might be talking with the Reds because the E5 ( Encarncion) is seems to be entrenched in their dog house. Which seems silly to me because why not just shuffle E5 into the a corner OF spot and see what happens. It is not like their OF has a bunch of all stars or almost H.O.Fers in it.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Way too logical
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Lincecum for Rios!!!
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Jul 13, 2009 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I’d rather have Rolen than Rios — Rios just causes a complicated OF situation to get even worse. Even assuming an OF went the other way, you’re almost certainly limited ABs for Bowker and Schierholtz with a move like that. Bringing in Rolen limits ABs for Ishikawa, but I’m ok with that really. I’m not sure how much more ceiling he has at the major league level then what we’ve seen so far.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
You’re limiting Bowker too, with a Rolen acquisition. He’ll only be an outfielder after that. I would prefer to see Ishi continue to play first base, and if he can’t handle it you have Bowker and Guzman, who is heating up again at Fresno. This is why Rich Aurilia is such a waste of roster space. Guzman should have been here for two months already, getting starts at first base against lefties. It might have answered some questions about what you need to add.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I’d really prefer to limit Bowker’s D positions because he’s not a good enough defensive player to get any value out of moving him around, you’ve just got a mediocre defender worried about picking up the subtleties of multiple positions. If it were me I’d just stick him in LF and leave him there and watch how his bat plays. Nate, Randy, and Rowand can circle through the other two positions.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
But what happens next year?
Winn is gone, and probably, Molina so carrying Torres to back up Cf becomes a lot less efficient. Rois would also be far and away the best glove on the OF and more than capable of manning CF or RF. That is the real allure of Rios.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
I would much rather sign Winn for 1 to 2 more years (I’m sure we could get him for arouind $3 M per) as an insurance policy, than be stuck with 5 years of Rios. Next year we would have Bowker, Rowand, and Nate as starters, and could sign h Winn and Torres as backups unless we sign a beter FA or make a trade for a power corner OF bat.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
You are aware the main reason Rios plays RF for the Jay is because the insane amount of money they pay Wells? Rios played over 500 innings in CF just last year and had like UZR/150 of 23.8. Now I am aware that numbers shouldn’t be considered precisely gospel but it shows he is a ++ glove. He was rated highly in both Rf & Cf by the +/- system as well. The man can flat out pick it. Just getting that in CF with a .330 wOBA is extremely valuable.
Secondly not paying in the teens of millions for a player in his prime with above average overall production in an up the middle position is a freaking steal.
CF is settled for the forcible future with Rios.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
I’m not sure I understand your thinking here, Dave. For one thing, Rios wouldn’t play CF here either — at least not for the next three years while Rowand’s on the team. And by the time Rowand’s gone you will be paying in the teens of millions (Rios contract is $9.7 next year and then up to 12 in 2011 and 12.5 through 2014) for a player who’s close to past his prime.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I admit I would start him in CF but the Big Head probably would not. Big Head probably starts in Rf most games. But I think even the Big Head would be more then fine with moveing Rios to CF 1-2 days week when Rowand rests. And if Rownand gets hurt ( or fades) Rios would move right into CF. No need to carry a Torress type player then next couple seasons.
The way I see it not much is liekly to arrive out fo our farm for CF in the next 3 seasons. Rois covers that. Rios also opens the possiblity of moving Rowand in the final couple years of this contract if he is good well.
I also not so sure a $12.5MM is that much of an over pay for a 32 year old the is putting up better then 2.0 WAR.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Well that all depends on where the economy goes in the next few years and I don’t believe there’s a wise man on earth who could honestly say they know the answer to that.
I do agree with you that there’s no CF coming from our farm system in the next three years that I can see. But I also don’t see us being able to move Rowand’s contract, which means you’re paying a lot for a CF contingency plan (not that that would be unheard of for the Giants — how much are we paying Dave Roberts this year, again?).
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
The Roberts comparison is exactly why I never liked the Rowand contract. But I cannot put spilt beer back in the bottle and need to go from here on that one. I do think Rios age tends to, by and large, take him out of that category.
I am not saying the Giant would automatically trade Rownad. Just saying that could be feasible option down the road without have the throw up a white flag on that season if there is someone like Rios to candle the “D” in Cf. Right now no such option exists nor seems likely to.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
It makes no sense to pay Rios to play RF, when we’re stuck with Rowand in CF for the next 3.5 years. Sure, Rios can spell Rowand, or even take over his starting spot, but you would still have $24M + per year tied up in a 2-headed CF. We’re already stuck with Rowand, so what we should do is wait for a real RH corner OF with pop comes available via FA or a trade and use some of the $64M that would be due Rios to have a real solution to our OF situation. Getting Rios now just doubles down and ties us up for 5.5 years. What if he crashes and burns, or gets injured? It’s just too long of a contract to take a chance with.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
You realy think that Rownad will play ever inning in Cf the next 3 years?
He will not.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
don’t you think there’s a strong possibility Rowand will be a LF for the last year or two of his contract?
Thing A
I would guess RF myself. But i figured there is enough twists in this topic with me adding more.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
+1
Keep Bowker away from 1B – he’s a butcher. If you wan to go in that direction why not consider Jesus at 1B?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Because Bowker is a better hitter and less of a butcher?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 13, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I CAN'T STOP THINKING ABOUT ALEX RIOS !!!
UMm … I mean I find your idea intriguing.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
That's insane
Rios has a contract from hell – it’s even worse than Rowand’s. We’d be stuck with him until 2014! At least Rowand is off the books in 2012. If we had both Rowand and Rios our OF flexibility would be gone for 5 years. We would owe Rios about about $62.6M and he has a full no-trade clause through 2010, with a limited no-trade (6 teams) through 2015. The numbers are:
09 >> $2.9M (prorated)
10 >> $9.7M
11 >> $12M
12 >> $12M
13 >> $12.5M
14 >> $12.5M
15 >> $1M club-option buyout
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
If Alex Rios ever reaches his potential, you’ll be glad you’re stuck with him till 2014. Then again, you’re right that the risk is a great one if he continues to perform like he has this season. Hopefully if the Giants’ pick him up, they’ll have done their homework and are convinced he will return to form. I don’t see any great outfielders on the horizon in this organization that will make us sorry we acquired Alex Rios though. And I’m not sure you’re stuck with Aaron Rowand. With only three years left on his deal, if he continues to play like he has this season, I would think you could move him.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Have you ever heard of Thomas Neal, Roger Kiesnick, and RafRod? I believe 1 or 2 of them will be ready by at least sometime during the 2011 season – at which point we’d still be stuck with Rios for 3+ years. Hasn’t our experience with Rowand and Zito taught you anything? Any contract for more than 4 years is just too risky. And in this age they’re just not necessary to succeed.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I’ve heard of all of those guys, but am sold on none of them. Your concerns about Rios are completely reasonable, I don’t want him either, but I wouldn’t be wringing my hands if the Blue Jays were to give him away to us. By the way, Rafrod?? Are you kidding? The Giants’ are going to make decisions for the future based on him being a sure fire star who will be better than Alex Rios? He’s a teenager who just started in the rookie league.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I agree that in the normal swing of things you wouldn’t think of RafRod, but Rios’s contract goes on for so long that it forces them to consider even RafRod being blocked. I’m not saying it’s a huge consideration, but you stated that you saw no OF on the Giants’ horizon that would make us sorry we had Rios and his contract. I believe that the Giants’ front office does believe that RafRod needs to be considered as a future contributor. Otherwise, why else did they give him the huge signing bonus?
Two other things. First, IMO you’re selling Neal short – he’s the real deal. I see him being a legit starter for us in the LF/RF as soon as 2011. He’s finally healthy and he’s that good. Check out his swing – it has no holes. And his plate discipline is already well above average. Secondly, even if you think we have no home-grown OFs to worry about, taking on Rios and his contract would preclude us from signing a FA stud corner OF at least until 2013 (when Rowand comes off the books). I’m not a Matt Holliday fan, but I think we could sign him for 3-4 years at around $13 M per this offseason and still end up much better off than being stuck with Rios.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
when you factor in defensive ability is the older Holliday really an upgrade over Rios? I’m certain I’d rather trade for Rios than Holliday because of the likely huge difference in asking price. I’m starting to think I’d rather trade for Rios’ contract than sign Holliday to similar money in the offseason.
Thing A
this
Was the line of thought that first started me thinking about Rios. The more i looked at ti the more it makes sense. Holiday is pretty much going to have to play a Corner OF spot. Rios isn’t so limitted.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
On Rios:
1. He makes $12MM the year after Renteria is gone. After 2012 Rowand (who makes the same kind of money) is gone.
2. Neal & Kiesnick don’t play CF. Rios can and does so very well. He play when Wells is out. And him being able to play a good CF is the main reason to get him. How many good glove CF and play 1300+ innings and be a reliable threat to do a 340wOBA or better?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Good points
But all you’re doing is showing that we should wait until 2013 to trade for Rios. By that time we can afford him, his contract isn’t egregious, and we’ll know if he’s aged well. Until then his contract is way too big of an albatross. I ask you, if Rios’s contract is not a deal-killer, why is Toronto looking to trade him? From another perspective, Rowand’s contract is much more palatable than Rios’s, but do you think we could get any other team to take Rowand off our hands at this time? Now consider that Rios has 2 more years on his contract than Rowand.
Also, don’t forget that guys like Lincecum, Cain, and Sanchez can be FAs in 2013. We’ll need to use the money saved by not having guys like Rowand and Renteria (I know Rent is off in 2011, but I assume we’ll have a much lower cost SS after that and hopefully we can sign Cain and/or Lincecum to a long-term contract before they hit the FA market) on the books to make a run at re-signing them.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Rowand is older...
But he’s off the books in 2012. Now, I agree that I’d rather have Rios than Rowand, all things being equal. If we could trade them straight-up I might do it. But, what you’re advocating is for us to take on 2 egregious contracts at the same time, just when we’re starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel from the hell that has been Rowand’s contract.
Put it this way. If Rios were a FA right now, would you even consider for 1 second signing him to that contract that he has? If your answer is no, and I can’t believe it wouldn’t be, then why are you even thinking of trading away anybody for the chance to assume that contract.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
If Rios was a free agent would I sign him?
Yes, yes I would. The cream of next winters free agent CF’s is Coco Crisp, Ankiel, Paterson and olderr then dirt Cameron. If you could talk Cawford into being considered a Cf he goes straight to the head of class. Thats it.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
But would you sign him for 5 years at $12M per? If you say yes, then you should never complain about Rowand’s contract again. We don’t need a sllightly beter version than Rowand long-term. If we could get Rios for only 2 or 3 years then I’d agree with you – he’d be nice to have.
Also, don’t forget that FA is not the only way to get a legit corner OF. There will be teams wanting to trade for some of our surplus pitching in the next year. If we have all that money tied up in Rowand and Rios and Zito, then we won’t be able to afford an established masher. We’d be left looking for an unproven, low-paid prospect.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Also, don’t forget that FA is not the only way to get a legit corner OF.
Funny weren’t you the guy that named Roger, neal etc a bit ago? those guys was Corner Of prospects.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
How does that contradict what I wrote. I have no problem trading for an established corner OF power bat that would be under contract for the next 2-3 years. I don’t consider Rios to be a power bat corner OF – IMO he’s a good-hitting CF. But even if I agreed that he fit the bill, his contract is too long to be considered.
Saying this doesn’t contradict what I wrote about Kieschnick, Neal, and RafRod. I was responding to somebody that wrote “I don’t see any great outfielders on the horizon in this organization that will make us sorry we acquired Alex Rios”. I also wrote that I thought somebody from this group (most likely Neal) would be ready to start for us as a corner OF in 2011. Once again, that doesn’t mean that I would turn down the opportunity to get an established corner OF between now and then through a trade or FA, if they would come with a palatable contract – no more than 4 years and not more than about $15M per. You know, the old “bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush” principle.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
It contradicts because we have real posibilties of up gradeing a Corner OF spot in house over the next 3 years. The is no such chance of help for CF in that time frame. So then CF becomes the area of great need, no?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
But again, that all presupposes that we have an opening in CF. We don’t. We have a $48 million contract in CF. There is NO chance for upgrading CF in the next 3 years because there is NO chance of changing the CF we have. That really seems to me to be the fundamental flaw in your reasoning.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Rowand’s having a fine year — he might be tradeable again. But I don’t see any reason to think the brass wants to do that.
Well, perhaps I didn’t express myself right — yes, in theory he could possibly be dealt (though I don’t think there are a handful of teams right now that want to take on long term monies over their budgets — but in the offseason he might be dealt), but in reality — he’s the organization’s CF for the next several years, thus negating the need to go get another CF. It’s trying to fill a full hole.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Just for this topic on this thread I will say Rowand does not degrade enough to moved out of Cf the last couple years of his contract. ( You know how much I think the exact opposite but it simplifies the discussion so I will do it for now. I will also deny having said anything like this in the future if it is brought up). A team needs to take the field for ~1460 innings ( 9*162). Rowand has logged over 1300 innings only twice( ’05 & ’07). Over 1K for 2 more times ( ’04 &’08). Even in ’08 we saw he wore down and needed more rest. So someone has to be able to handle the Cf chores for at least a game a week. That is if there are no injuries or his legs not ageing too quickly.
Add to that the need to have a good glove with wheels in Rf at May Field ( which could also help aging legs on a CF) and Rios ( or similar player like maybe Crawford) becomes a lot less of luxury item. Again this is saying Rowand performs to his best case senerio.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Rios would be a good fit over the next 2.5 years, but after that you have no chance to get rid of him and still owe him 2.5 years and $37M right when the odds of him getting injured or seeing his production drop due to age increase dramatically. The length of his contract just skews the risk/reward way too much to the risky side to be considered. If we just wait I’m sure there will be a better deal for an OF on the FA or trade market over the next year. Teams are really beginning to hurt financially and there will be more fire sales.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Again I submit a very good gloved CF with a .330 wOBA is extremely valuable. One that is a threat to routinely do better than .340 wOBA is even more so. And in 2.5 year he would be the CF ( barring the Giants stumble upon a wonder kid for CF). So what is exactly the huge down side here? Are you going to argue he might get hurt? Fair enough but only if one compares that to the odds Rowand gets hurt in that same time frame.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
No, that’s not the comparison. You want to begin paying Rios immediately on the chance that Rowand gets hurt and then to finally take over for him in 2013. I ask you, who takes out an insurance policy and pays the same in premiums as the replacement cost of the actual item being insured (ie. their contracts are basically the same from 2010 through 2012? If Rowand gets seriously hurt between now and 2012, and Rios still looks good, we can always trade for him then. It’s not like the Jays are guarding him jealously or like other teams are lusting after him.
If Rios is still playing well in 2012, I have no problem trying to get him then as an eventual replacement for Rowand. Until then the length of his contract and his lack of power don’t make him a fit for our RF/LF. IMO, we should now be looking in-house and outside for a cheaper (in the long-term) player with more upside.
His numbers are not much different than Winn’s and his downward trend the last 2 years is troubling – especially when you want us to commit to paying him for the next 5.5 years.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
We disagree in that I don’t believe we have much of a chance of expecting any in-house corner OF to be ready before 2011. Therefore, I’m brainstorming for ways to improve the team and push for the playoffs between now and then, without crippling us long-term. That’s why getting a CF with a 5.5 year contract doesn’t help. It doesn’t measurably improve our corner OF or CF (because Rowand will be there for 3.5 years), and it seriously ties our hands in looking outside the organization for an answer.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
But would he be here in 2011 if there is a ready made solution for him in CF? We can’t assumme he would or wouldn’t.
And Nate looks real good in RF but either Bowker proves himself ( volia upgrades COF!) or the team uses Nates glove in LF and some comboe of Rowand & Rois for the other 2 spots. Then just keep having the corner guys out play Nate or using Nate as a late inning defensive replacement & pinch hitter.
As a post above the Cf Hole is not a filled as you are assumming. Not by a long shot.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Torres and/or Winn can be signed for 1 or 2 years in the offseason for very little money ($2-4M) if we want insurance for an extended absence by Rowand. The money saved between that and the cost of Rios’s contract could then be judicously spent on a short- (my preference), or long-, term upgrade at corner OF, 2B, or 1B.
If you don’t like Winn or Torres as insurance, then we should be able to sign somebody from this group of FAs as cheap, short-term insurance until something better long-term shows up (just to be clear I’m not advocating for any of these guys – although the thought of Jones collecting money form the Fodgers while sticking it to them on the field does make me feel warm all over):
Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu, Magglio Ordonez, Jermaine Dye, Rocco Baldelli, Mike Cameron, Scott Podsednik, and Andruw Jones
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I though you just seeded the aurgement for the next couple years?
But let us look at it any ways. You can sign Winn (who is showing sever signs of becoming a platoon players and will be age 36. Torress who will be age 32 and you hope he doesn’t regress to Tigers numbers. Cameron is not going to come here to play mostly RF – not likely at all. Now days Jones is like Lewis with a glove but with less speed ( age is a bitch). All these guy have huge issues that do not fit the ’10 Giants. They also mean the team has a "dead" roster space because none of them should be playing every day in RF. Or you pay $10 and use the 5th of spot tocreate completion at LF, carry an extra reliever or and extra infielder as the conditions demand.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
It may not be filled for every inning of the next 3 years, but it certainly has a body in it for the majority of those innings; and that body is being paid good money. I guess my issue is with needs vs. resources. We don’t have a very good internal solution for 1B over the next 3 years, or 2B, or SS. We could have continuing needs to fill out the rotation. Is CF really a position worth spending $24 million on for several years in the face of our other needs? I mean I agree that Rowand will likely degrade over the course of his contract, but I don’t think that makes him easier to move aside, it makes it harder. Heck Sabean’s publicly talked about how hard a decision cutting Roberts was this year based on the $$$; if Rowand plays himself back to untradeable (and in the current economic environment, I’m not entirely sure he’s played himself back to tradeable yet), I just don’t see how we move him — off the team or out of the lineup — and I sure don’t see him helping us much from a corner spot. So it still brings me back to a poor use of resources given our gaping IF problems and possible future pitching shortages.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I fully agree SS & 2nd are now the biggest issues. I just don’t free agent upgrades become available that would be much different than the Renteria contract.
The difference here is at least the Giants system has a Crawford or Adrainza that could be in the show, or near it, in the next 2 years. I don’t even see that kind of in house option for CF.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
But we clearly DO have an in house option for the next 2 years for CF and that option is Rowand. And whether you like him or not, or whether his production declines or not, the organization certainly likes him and there’s no reason to think they’ll do anything with him.
I’d have more confidence saying that he’ll be the starting CF for the next three years then I even would in saying Bumgarner will be a starting pitcher for the next three years.
And really, if Adrianza’s in AA in two years it’ll be a great thing, and while Crawford could be in the majors in 2011, I doubt he’ll be a more productive player than Rowand at that point (and I’m not that bullish on Rowand).
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
On Crawford & Adrianza my point is not that they will be more productive then Rowand. My contention is those 2 are far more likely to produce a viable team controlled SS in 2-3 years than anything the team has on the farm for CF.
I am pretty sure I am not letting my dislike for Rowand’s signing color my view here. The best case for Rowand is he plays decent CF for the next 2-3 years at say 120-130 games( ~1200 innings) a year , are we agreed with that? I would go so far as to say that is in the upper 90 percantiles best case for Scott in CF. That would be in line with his highest playing times, him not getting injured or going into a terrible funk. Also the team still needs a very good RF and to fill CF for ~250 innings a year. That leaves a team with 2 choices:
A. Get a scrub CF on the cheap (let us us call this one the Son of Torres). So now the team has a roster space used by a speedy slap hitter. So just exactly how does the Son of Torres fit on a post Molina Giants? Odds are Big Head uses him ( "To keep him sharp") instead ofone of the younger CI a decent amount of the time or else the son of Torress is just there being waited space, very much like a 3rd string catcher (2nd or when a team has a designated #1 catcher the does the bulk of the catching and a 3rd catcher is not carried).
B. The Giants get another player with the glove to play CF but hits well enough he is not a embarrassment in RF. ( We can call this guy the Son of Winn or the Son of Burks ). Such player would allow any younger C.O.F. guys to play to rest not only the Son Winn ( or Son of Burks) but Mr. Rowand as well. It would allow the Giants to use the #3  OF spots to as competition for evaluation for the graduate farm hands with out loss of Play time to Son of Torress.
To me choice B is the far better way for an NL team that thinks it should win 85 (or more games) to go. The 2010 Giants should be thinking of themselves as such a team.
Yes , I see Rios as more of a Son of Burks type then a Son of Winn. Burks had real bad knees by the time he left Boston (still he played good amounts of time in CF both in Coors and his first year in SF) were Rios doesn’t and Burkes was about 4-5 years older when the Giants’ got him. I think Rios has too much natural power to be a Son of Winn type.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
But all you’re doing is showing that we should wait until 2013 to trade for Rios
All you are showing is you think the Jays will be near bankrupt for the next 3 years. The cash crunch they are in will not last forever. Once it passes we will not get Rios without paying through the nose. In the next half year the Jays will make choices about keeping or moving Haliday and bye -bye chance.
As for up coming contracts with the young guys 2 farther points:
1. The team does need to show they are willing ti invest in upgraded help to encourage the likes of Tim & Cain to stay around. Rios does this.
2. The team will have to eventually bump payroll to over $100MM( more like $110MM) any ways to keep the core and keeps the bay area from treating them like the A’s get treated.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Yes, I believe that the Rays will be a marginal team for the forseeable future. I don’t think that they have to be near-bankrupt to be in dire straights.
You forget that they have the Vernon Wells contract (their version of our Zito contract) that they’ll never be able to get rid of. You also forget that they’re in a division where they can’t compete money-wise with the Yanks and BoSox (it will only get worse in the coming years) and the other 2 teams in the division (O’s and Rays) are already stacked with young and elite talent. They Jays won’t be able to compete with any of these teams, so their attendance will remain low (trading Halladay or let him go FA will further demoralize their fan-base), and their revenues will continue to suffer no matter how much the economy may pick up in the next 4 years (and that’s not a given with this congress and this president). The only chance they have to contend is to sell off all their high-priced players and go whole-hog rebuilding like the Marlins often do for the next 3-5 years. They’ll stink for several years, but they’ll get high draft picks, and if they can evaluate and stockpile young talent they have a chance to beat the big boys with a small payroll like the Rays did last year.
So, unless Rios morphs into ManRam or Jason Bay, I do believe that the Jays will be looking to trade him every year until his contract expires.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Dohhh
In my first sentence above “I believe that the Rays..” should obviouolsy be “I believe that the Jays…”
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Dude , I got what you ment. I am the Resident SLum Lord of theGrammar Sin Bin after all. You were just putting me at ease.
;)
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, in this down economy, the Giants can ink $63 M in contracts on other FAs, or in trades, much more wisely in the next few years than on Rios. Tim & Matt would be much more impressed by that.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
What the Jay will do, if they can’t free up the money, with start reloading. The can’t move Wells that is true. Haladay would bring back a price’s ransom ( and he should) and free up a lot of the crunch. The Jays are only on the hook for ~$44MM after next season So the shuffle around some of the Arb 3-4 guys to other teams and wait for the next wave to hit the MLB out of there farm.
Man ram? The guy that is strictly 1 dimensional player but to a get extreme? Even in his current slump Rios is that. It is just that slumping Rios’s 1 exception dimension is his glove.
As for spending on other free agents in the next 3 years name names were they are true up grades.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I didn’t mean to imply that Rios’s entire game would become like ManRam’s, rather I meant that if he started hitting like him or Bay, then his contract would be no problem for the Jays to keep on the books.
Also, I agree that Halladay should yield a cornucopia of delights, but that’s only if they trade him before this year’s deadline (no way he gets through waivers after that), or before the first month of next year. After that the return will diminish quickly due to teams worrying about losing him to FA after 2010.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I get what your saying about his Manram now. I would submit to you Rios contract vs his production is not that much of a problem for the Jays. It is Well’s contracts and what it would take to keep Haladay that is the problem. So they are left with a very bad choice Rios or Haladay.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
If they didn’t have Wells on the books then I believe that they would not be looking to give Rios away, although I do believe that they would be feeling antsy that they signed him for so many years, and would trade him if they could get what they considered at least fair value. As for Halladay, they would never trade him if they thought he would re-sign with them. However, I’m not sure that Halladay would sign an extension with the Jays even if the money was right. I believe that he wants to go to a team that he feels can compete for a championship over the next several years. If that is the case, then you can’t blame Wells’s contract on them losing Halladay – their problem is that they haven’t been able to develop the cheap young talent to compete with teams like the Yanks and BoSox.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Haladay is been very constant over the years in saying how much he enjoys Toranto. I could see him asking to get out if the team is on are build program (i.e. Schilling in Pilly circa 2000) but he has not yet and they are not yet.
That team has been crushed by a freak amount of pitching injuries and he has to know this. By next spring that team could very well offer 2-3 team controlled B.O.R (or better) to a team for a missing piece(s) as well. That franchise has a crap load of options which combination of options they choose will be very interesting. At any rate I think some team, or two, is going to be able to make a very fair trade with them to addresses each teams area of great need.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
but he’s also 28 with a much better better track record of health than Rolen and has posted WARs of 4.6 and 5.5 the last couple years. The contract is bad, but because of that he probably would cost us next to nothing in terms of prospects.
Thing A
Are those park-adjusted & league-adjusted?
Rios plays the vast majority of his games in hitter havens (Fenway, Trop, Camden, Yankee Stadium, and Toronto). Not to mention the pop he gets from having a DH. With us he would play the majority of his games in hitter-unfriendly parks (AT&T, PetCo, Chavez Ravine, Oakland). All of his hitting stats should drop more than a little. His D would also decline since playing RF/CF is much more challenging in AT&T than Toronto.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Oakland?
He’d play as many games in Oakland as a Giant as he would as a Blue Jay. And AT&T is not a pitcher’s park anymore either (heck, Toronto is way more of a pitcher’s park than AT&T is a hitter’s park.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
AT&T is hitter-friendly for a hitter like Rios. CF and RF are pretty fair (Rios is RH), and he’s much more of a doubles and triples hitter than a HR hitter, so Triples’ Alley should help him. And the non-existent foul territory helps a lot too.
Also, you can’t mention Petco and Dodger Stadium and just ignore Chase and Coors – two of the most extreme hitters’s parks in the majors. Overall, the NL west is pretty fair, or probably even hitter friendly.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
I wouldn’t go as far as saying the NL West is hitter-friendly, although I would agree that it’s fair for a RH hitter (but not for a LH). The point I was ineloquently trying to make is that the AL East is extremely hitter-friendly (the most of any division besides the NL Central, so in comparison hitters should have better numbers playing in the East (not to mention the advantage of having a DH).
Since the Rockies started using the humidor and the Yankees moved into their new park, Yankee Stadium is more hitter-friendly than Coors. In fact, since the humidor, even Fenway is slightly more hitter-friendly than Coors (especially for a RH). I believe that the mumbers will show that Camden Yard, the Trop, and the Dbacks Stadium are about equal. Therefore, IMO the rankings go like this (from most hitter-friendly to least):
1. Yankee Stadium
2. Fenway
3. Coors Field
4a. The Trop
4b. Dbacks
4c. Camden
5. Toronto
6. AT&T
7. Chavez Ravine
8. PetCo
So, I don’t see it as much of a contest.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
They actually measure these things, you know. You don’t have to guess. You can find park factors at ESPN, baseball-reference, and probably lots of other places.
It varies a lot from year to year, but Coors and Chase are consistently the top of the list as the hittingest parks in baseball. The new Yankee Stadium isn’t close, though it’s much too soon to tell, really.
In the past 10 years the only time that Rolen missed an appreciable number of games due to injury was in 2005 when he missed about 100. I have no problem with Rolen only playing 110-120 games a year. That would keep him fresh and give Pablito time at 3B. Also, don’t discount the effect on Rolen of playing in a pennant race again. He’s a big-time competitor.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
no vet looks that good. That’s gotta be an actress. Most vets look like the one on the left.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
the dog?
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
by Useful_Idiot on Jul 13, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
No thank you.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 13, 2009 9:04 AM PDT reply actions
Thank you, no.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 13, 2009 9:05 AM PDT reply actions
As a straight salary dump? For, like, Clay Timpner? Yes. He’s better than Ishikawa.
For Thomas Neal on up? No.
The correct play of course
is to put pablo at C , and leave TI at 1B. Unless you think Molina can out hit Ishikawa… actually I would do a “rotation” platoon
where Molina would play C against LHP and Pablo 1B, while Pablo would C and TI play 1B against RHP.
But yeah, I wouldn’t give anything but $$ for him…. and I don’t see any MIs who can hit like Rolen. HIs D used to be pretty good , too.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
I have no problem with that
I think that with a rotation at 3B, 1B, and C we can keep Pablito’s bat in the lineup almost all the time, while still giving Molina and Rolen the majority of ABs at C and 3B, respectively, AND allowing Ishi enough ABs at 1B to keep him sharp. Next year when Bengie is gone then Ishi has the chance to take over 1B full-time (if he can handle it), and Panda plays about 100 games at C, and 50 at 3B. It should be easy to find a low-cost veteran catcher in the offseason to spell Pablito for a year until Buster is ready to take over.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Say Rolen's a Giant?
Do we have to call a certain CF with a similar sounding lasting name Aaron now? Great Scott!
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
Whichever one has more gamery grittishness gets to be called Scott, the other will be Aaron. I guess this will be decided by which one runs full speed into fences and other players most often.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Scott Ishikawa?
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 13, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
perhaps he becomes Crash, Crunch or Air Bag?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
YES!!
And well he screws up we just call him Harvey the Rabbit?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
It’s a good point. If we get Rolen, Barry Bonds is going to be confused. “Why did they trade for a player they have already?”
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
When it come to baseball BLB is NEVER confused.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
MORE LIKE LOLEN
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 13, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
On a serious note...
Rolen is far too old and makes too much money for the Giants to even consider trading for him. I know Sabes loves his vets but he will likely pass on this one because Panda’s holding down at 3rd just fine while Ishikawa currently possesses more pop than Rolen with better defense at 1st.
I’m firmly against just keeping this team intact, they have shown to score more runs recently and Zito is likely going to be better in the 2nd half as he has been in the past 2 years. Winn and Rent have been disappointing thus far but if they can produce similar to this career averages then it’s as good as adding a new bat – 2 HRs a piece is quite sad.
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
by Scooter Ellis on Jul 13, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
“I’m firmly against just keeping this team intact” LOL I mean I’m firmly against trades but just keeping this team intact.
Case of the Mondaze…
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
by Scooter Ellis on Jul 13, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m with you on maintaining that the concept of “first do no harm” should be our guide right now. However, if Sabes can ferret out the right deal where we can get a proven bat without mortgaging the future, ruining the team defense, or screwing up the current postive inertia of the team then I think we should grab it.
That’s why I think Rolen would be a good move to consider – if we can get him for a few fringe prospects as a salary dump. Here’s the rest of my reasoning.
1. He only costs us about $16M over the next 1.5 seasons, and he’s off the books after 2010 when we really have to start saving money for arb-eligible players and in-house FAs to be.
2. Having Rolen at 3B and Panda at 1B is about the same defensively as the current Panda/Ishi combo. Rolen is a dinstinct upgrade over Panda, but Panda != Ishi. But,
Rolen is a distinct upgrade hitting-wise over Ishi, especially in high-pressure and post-season situations. Rolen also mashes LH pitching (a sore need for us) and has no problem hitting on the road like Ishi.
3. Rolen is a good guy in the clubhouse – steady and not demanding. He’s been to the playoffs and won a ring. He carried the Cards in that series against the Dbacks a few years ago.
4. We’d have the luxury of rotating Panda between 1b and 3b to give Rolen plenty of rest and Ishi a chance to get enough ABs to not go totally cold. Panda can also play some catcher this year to give Ishi more ABs (and Bengie less) if Ishi shows continued improvement with the bat.
5. It allows us to continue getting Nate and Bowker ABs in the OF to see if they’re viable options for the short-term and/or long-term.
6. It provides a good path for bridging the catching change from Bengie to Buster, without rushing Buster into the bigs next year, while simultaneously allowing Ishi another chance to nail down the starting 1b spot next year – he seemed to do better his 2nd go-round at most levels in the minors. I don’t want Pablito to be a full-time catcher his whole career, because I think his body will break down quickly that way and cause us to lose his brilliant bat. But I see no problem with him catching about 100 games next year (while spelling Rolen at 3b for about 40 game to keep Scott fresh), while keeping the position warm for Buster to come up sometime in the 2nd half of 2010 or the beginning of 2011. Normally, I wouldn’t suggest putting a young guy through all of these postion changes, but Panda is a different breed. He’s already proven last year and parts of this year that it doesn’t matter where he plays, as long as he gets to swing the bat he’s a happy camper.
Of course, I realize all of this hinges on Sabean still being able to swing a good trade, and Toronto being willing to give Rolen away for fringe prospects in order to save money. This could be a tall order on both counts.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I'm really not convinced that Rolen is that much of an improvement over Ishikawa
Especially when you factor in the loss of defense @ 1b w/ Pablo shifting over as well as the added cost.
It just seems like an expensive way to add talent. There are certainly lower hanging fruit than Ishikawa on this team.
If it was credible to move Pablo back to C for the remainder of the year, this looks a lot more interesting… But I don’t know how realistic that is.
I have always liked Scott Rolen however and the MO seems to fit into exactly what Sabean said he was looking to do @ the deadline…
by FairweatherFan on Jul 13, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I respect your opinion, but I think you’re selling short how much better D at 3B Rolen would be compared to Pablo. I believe that it would be almost comparable, but not quite equal to the difference in D at 1B between Ishi and Pablo.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Possibly
But at that point you are assuming significant cost (16m) on the hope that a 35 year old 3rd baseman in a likely decline outperforms a 25 year old 1b who is showing some signs of promise.
by FairweatherFan on Jul 13, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
The Giants should trade for Eric Young Jr
A good leadoff hitter, and a 2B. the Rockies have a logjam in the infield with Barmes and Stewart and Helton and Atkins and Tulowitzki. They seem to need pitching, which is what the Giants have.
Im not very knowledgable about this kinda stuff, maybe the Rockies have awesome pitchers in their farm system, but I dont know. just something to mull over.
Congratulations and Thank you Jonathan Sanchez.
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 13, 2009 3:40 PM PDT reply actions
The rockies and Giants will not be making any trades
by FairweatherFan on Jul 13, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s always hard to make a trade in your own division. Right now it would be near impossible, because the 2 teams are #1 and #2 (separated by only 2 games) in the NL Wild-Card race. It seems that, at most, the GMs would only trade low-minor prospects that are still > 1 year from making the big club. They wouldn’t want to be seen as the one that traded the other team the missing piece they needed to make the playoffs.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
oh ya
theres that little detail
Congratulations and Thank you Jonathan Sanchez.
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 13, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Atkins sucks and I think they are trying to dump him. He’s also a FA after the season.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 13, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s always hard to make a trade in your own division. Right now it would be near impossible, because the 2 teams are #1 and #2 (separated by only 2 games) in the NL Wild-Card race. It seems that, at most, the GMs would only trade low-minor prospects that are still > 1 year from making the big club. They wouldn’t want to be seen as the one that traded the other team the missing piece they needed to make the playoffs.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
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