Frandsen wants out?
by russian.tank on Jun 7, 2009 9:48 PM PDT
178 comments
Reading Andrew Baggerly's blog and interesting quote by Frandsen: "The Giants don’t see me as an everyday player, but I see myself differently," Frandsen was quoted as saying. "At a certain point, you realize a lot more teams need help, no matter how much my heart is set on this team."
Personally, I think that he can be packaged with someone to get a good bat, maybe a Dan Uggla or a Paul Konerko?
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No way
His potential for us is worth more than what he would get on the trade market.
by thethrillisgone on Jun 7, 2009 9:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would give him one more shot, and depends on our position a month from now, I would make a decision.
by russian.tank on Jun 7, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We all know what the people here would do...
But the Giants seem hellbent on keeping Burriss and Renteria as the starters.
We could only hope for one of the two to get injured.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 8, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont want to trade him
Personally, I think that he can be packaged with someone to get a good bat, maybe a Dan Uggla or a Paul Konerko?
He could be a complimentary piece perhaps, but he would by no means he would be the center of a deal
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 7, 2009 9:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
no, I think that Sanchez would be the center. But I’d rather give up Frandsen, Bowker, and even some pitching to get a good bat instead of Bumgardner or Alderson
by russian.tank on Jun 7, 2009 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who wants Kevin Frandsen? What is the Giants’ selling point? He missed all of 2008 with an injury and he went hitless in his brief time up here. If they put him at second base for Burriss for a month and he lights it up he might have some value, but then again if he does that the Giants would probably want to keep him.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jun 8, 2009 4:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
by GameSix on Jun 8, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, at this point, I don’t blame him. It’s ridiculous that he hasn’t gotten a legitimate major league shot yet.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 9:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This.
The way he’s bounced around can’t be of any help to him. If the Giants don’t want to bring him up and give him a shot at being an every day player, I can’t hold it against him that he wants that chance somewhere else. I can’t really say one way or another whether he’s got the stuff of a starting player. But he should get the chance, if not here, then wherever we can get something in value in return.
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by can of corn on Jun 7, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's more unfortunate than ridiculous, IMO.
They’ve twice put Frandsen in a position to take the starting 2B job. The first time, he broke his jaw. The second time, he blew out his achilles. He was eclipsed by Burriss while on the the DL, it happens. Granted, Burriss has all but played himself out of the majors at this point, but the decision to go with him was at least moderately defensible at the time.
Now, if Frandsen doesn’t get another extended chance to “dethrone” Burriss right quickly, then I’ll call it ridiculous. Until then, Frandsen really can’t blame his lack of opportunities on anything but his all-out approach and its physical repercussions.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 7, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s pretty much inevitable that Burriss gets sent down and Frandsen gets a shot at the job before long.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 7, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it though? I feel like, in the media anyway, there’s barely been any acknowledgment of how bad Burriss has been.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And i don’t think that Bochy really thinks Burriss has been all that bad.
This team makes me sad sometimes.
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by groug on Jun 7, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s fast and he plays flashy defense!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, Wait a second
How is Burriss “BAD” and “played himself out of the majors”?
We want them to be patient with the kids, and now we pull the plug on Burriss who as of 1 week ago had a .277 average with a .339 obp. He’s been putting the ball on the ground and using his speed and although at times unsteady in the field, has shown very good range.
And for Frandsen?
As I recall, in his extended look in 2007 had more than his share of keystone cops moments and put up a line near to Burriss with more pop.
Sure, I like Franny and would like to see him get a chance, but I can’t get on board with this Burriss sucks bandwagon.
Sounds like a case of grass is greener to me.
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by merkin on Jun 7, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ily
The San Francisco Giants: Where old men go to die.
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 7, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss is hitting .262/.318/.295
That’s fucking awful. Matt Cain has a higher OPS than Burriss does.
What has Burriss ever done that makes you think he can be better than that? I mean, one time as a 22-year old in Low A-ball, he had a .750 OPS. That’s the best he’s ever done. Whereas Kevin Frandsen has hit at every stop in the minors he’s ever made. Kevin Frandsen has some power. Maybe Frandsen wouldn’t be better, but I would say there’s about a 90% chance he would be.
This team has the worst offense in the majors. Emmanuel Burriss has the worst batting line of any second baseman in the majors. The reason we think the grass is greener is that we’re looking at the grass and it’s pretty fucking brown.
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by groug on Jun 7, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s Manny’s line from before today’s game, by the way. So it’s a little worse now because he went 0-4.
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by groug on Jun 7, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good god, I don’t want to rehash the arguments I made in the other thread.
FACT: The only season Burriss has had of note so far in the minors was as a 22 year old in low-A ball (this is after he failed a trial at high-A ball). His career minor league OPS is
FACT: The grass IS greener. As of today, Emmanuel Burriss had the WORST OPS of all starting second basemen in the majors leagues.
How is Burriss bad? Look, I like the guy a lot. He’s likable. I want him to succeed. But the dude is hitting .262/.318/.295. That is BAD. That is actually more than bad, that is awful. That line is pitcher-esque. He has a .314 BABIP, so he has not even been unlucky (and honestly? the fact that he has something like the 4th worst bad speed/worst speed off the bat in the majors leads me to believe you should expect even worse than whatever is considered the average BABIP.)
As I said in the other thread… the fact that Burriss is not major league ready is nothing he should be ashamed of. Dude was rushed and he did a nice job holding his own for awhile. But it’s becoming increasingly clear that he’s just not ready yet. The guy is hitting like a pitcher and – frankly – not playing as good as defense as it seems like he is.
I’m not sure why people are getting so bent out of shape at people acknowledging how bad Burriss has been. I know he’s batting 8th, etc but this is an easy and obvious place we could upgrade offensively (and there’s an obvious solution) and yet…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*his career minor league OPS is .684
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may have been right the first time
As in, nonexistent.
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by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jun 7, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s ridiculous that an acceptable-fielding SS like Burriss should get switched to 2B….in the majors. I sometimes imagine the Keystone Cops bit playing in the background when the Giants have organizational meetings.
Frandsen should have gotten the 2B job out of Spring Training, based on his good ST performance AND his minor league history of competence. Whether he would have kept that job by now or not, I can’t say. But that would have been the right thing to do. Just as giving Schierholtz a good, long look last year was the right thing to do – and we didn’t. The fact that the Ginats Brasss doesn’t comprehend how you promote and evaluate young players is extremely frustrating.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Priceless!
I sometimes imagine the Keystone Cops bit playing in the background when the Giants have organizational meetings.
Though I would say most times.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 8, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry - I wasn't clear
I sometimes imagine that Keystone Cops bit playing in the background every time the Giants have organizational meetings… and sometimes I imagine Jessica Alba can’t stop thinking about me.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
At the meetings, the one you mentioned where the Cops were present, I’m sure they talked about not wanting to have an all rookie infield. In the AFL Burriss was just a bit less than horrific at SS for the Giants. So the Giants went out and got their new SS. Not my choice for SS but they seemed happy with a vet in the infield.
I love Franny. Believe he can be a ML 2b and 2-hole hitter for a long time. He was given a fair opportunity to win the 2b job. Believe the Giants made the right choice with Burriss. The infield of Ishikawa, Frandsen, Sandoval and Renteria lacks defensive skills and speed. Burriss was the better complement for this team.
And as for Franny, he has one of the biggest mouths for the least production of any player I know.
by wilriv21 on Jun 8, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa there, big fella
Only Renteria lacks defensive range in that group. Frandsen and Pablo look average and Ishikawa looks above average (these are my eyeball estimates only).
And this notion of Frandsen “losing” the 2B job to Burriss in Spring Training is crazy. Because of a handful of at-bats against widely varying levels of pitching…in a training environment? Frandsen has a much more solid resume as regards hitting. Now, can Burris cover more ground (at whichever position)? Yes, absolutely. But, can Frandsen more successfully hit his way out of a paper bag than Manny? Yes, absolutely. And it appears that Burriss cannot, and really has not in the past.
Now, if it had been me in charge, I never would have signed Renteria, and let Burriss at least start the season at SS. (I don’t see him having much value at any position other than SS). If Burriss were the starting SS hitting the way he is now, but with Frandsen at 2B hitting reasonably well in the 2-hole, and with Renteria’s money still in the bank available to spend on the draft or in the Dominican Republic, I’d feel much better.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now, if it had been me in charge, I never would have signed Renteria, and let Burriss at least start the season at SS. (I don’t see him having much value at any position other than SS). If Burriss were the starting SS hitting the way he is now, but with Frandsen at 2B hitting reasonably well in the 2-hole, and with Renteria’s money still in the bank available to spend on the draft or in the Dominican Republic, I’d feel much better.
This is all sound logic, but the timeline makes it easier said than done. Burriss had a strong ST long after the team had to make a decision about signing a FA SS. It appears the team didn’t have enough faith (offensively and defnesively) in Burriss as a starting INF to rely on him making the big team and felt they had to sign an established SS so as to not put a bunch of eggs in the Burriss basket.
Burriss’ solid ST meant he played his way into a starting middle-infield position, and it certainly wasn’t going to be SS after the money they spent on Edgar.
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by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I understand your point Goofus, and agree that that is what the front office was thinking. I just believe it was a bad decision. My preference is that you not spend a lot of money on a shortstop when your offense is already pitiably weak. Get somebody who can play defense there, and maybe hit a little – sorta like our good friend Emmanuel.
I get the sense they had this money burning a hole in their pockets, and nowhere else they could see to spend it. Saving it for the 2009 draft, or the next crop of Latin free agents must have seemed like too wacky an idea to even entertain.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I think they were trying to add offense with the Renteria signing. Vizquel/Bocock was a far bigger pile of suck than anything we’ve had to deal with so far this season.
We can all agree that the contract was too big in hindsight, but with SS as the most glaring offensive hole of 2008, signing someone with a track-record of hitting in the bigs was probably a safer than relying on Burriss to be an offensive upgrade at the position.
Again, I think Burriss’ strong ST surprised the team somewhat.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I think you’ve articulated what the brass was thinking; and again, I totally disagree. I thought Renteria was a bad bet going forward, offensively (I didn’t know about his diminished defensive range). Now, if we’d taken a gamble on him at 2-3mil a year, yeah, I suppose I could squint and see that as a reasonable gamble. Just not the 6mil a year he’s getting. For 6mil on the FA market, I’m expecting more of a Grudzielanek (I didn’t have to look it up either, Grant!) or DeRosa or Theriot offense (those are just names off the top of my head) – a BA of around .275-.280 with 8-10 HR’s a year. And acceptably average defense. I don’t think Edgar achieves either this year. A certainly not next year.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like many Giants-related arguments, I’m profoundly conflicted on this problem. On the one hand I really did think, having seen a bit of Renteria last year (wife’s a Tigers fan) that he was in free-fall decline and I was pretty heavily against the signing. On the other, I can’t say that I’d agree that Burriss that I’d have considered Burriss either an acceptably average defensive or offensive SS going into the year, and I don’t think he’s done anything so far to suggest that he would have been.
I guess mostly I was on the “offer Furcal a contract” wagon, and that doesn’t look all that great so far this year either.
What exactly do you do when all your options are crap? (this dilemma also applies at several other positions).
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by Roger on Jun 8, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have tried to scoop up a decent career backup or stalled ex-prospect (Zobrist, Keppinger, like that) in order to give Burriss a year in AAA. If Manny still doesn’t look like a legit starter a year later, then you look for a longer-term solution.
I actually would have been okay with a Vizquel/Ochoa platoon, but that might be too defeatist for a team desperate to convince people that it’s still relevant after Bonds.
by Evan on Jun 8, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not gonna make you feel any better...
…but Renteria’s actually getting about $9M a year (he’s on a 2-year not a 3-year deal).
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 8, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always look on the bright side of life (whistles)
We’re further through the contract now than we would be if it was a three year deal
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Team option, though
I think it’s unlikely they’ll exercise it and pay $10.5M for a 35 year old shortstop, unless he mysteriously reverts to 2003 form for the next year and a half.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 9, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bottom line
it sucks to have no position players in your system, eh?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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by zenbitz on Jun 8, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants priority
upgrading 8th place hitter. Gets on base more for pitcher to GIDP!
Seriously, a team running Molina out as cleanup, Ish at 1B, and Rowand at leadoff needs to replace a guy who can actually run and field? This team’s problems are not going to be solved by DeRosa at 2B, much less Frandsen who (as pointed out below) has basically posted the same MLB numbers in the same number of AB.
I agree that his development has been messed up by bringing him up, but I don’t see a lot of evidence that the Giants lower level coaches do much for position players anyway.
Maybe Burriss never hits well enough to be a regular at 2B or SS (and as you point out his MILB numbers suggest that might happen). At least he will ultimately still be able to pinch run off the bench and not embarrass himself in the field, which (cf. Velez experiment) should not be undervalued on this team.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 6:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that there’s an obvious solution to the 2B problem that is easy for the Giants to get up here in Frandsen (and his major league numbers are similar – spread out over 4 seasons but his minor league numbers are NOT) and yet there’s been no talk that we have a problem at 2B. The teams problems will not be solved but you can make a difference by upgrading at one position, especially if the answer to the problem is RIGHT THERE.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't get why
if his MLB numbers are similar, that he’s so obviously the savior.
And fair enough, there is a problem at 2B. Also, California’s legislature is debating many and sundry bills which might have some effect if the Controller finds some quarters in the couch in the next two weeks to fund any programs.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His MLB numbers have come from mostly sporadic playing time spread out over 4 seasons. In the year he got consistent PT, he OPS’d about .710… much better than what Burriss has managed. His minor league numbers are, as has been mentioned many times before, very good. His MLEs are not fantastic (.287/.328/.407) but much better than what Burriss has done this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is very much not “obviously the savior” but by now it is clear that Burriss is not the answer (at least not at the moment) so why in the holy fuck not give him a shot?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 8, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ish is not at first. That’s Pablo over there. And Uribe and Aurilia at third.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
by kennv on Jun 8, 2009 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry for getting the deck chairs wrong
I’m aware Pablo’s “injury” has temporarily put Ishi in a corner. There’s still, unfortunately, only one Sandoval on this team, wherever he’s standing in the field.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s still, unfortunately, only one Sandoval on this team
by The Double Deuce on Jun 8, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the cut of his jib
I’m going to make him the next Executive Vice President.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO ONE PUTS ISHI IN A CORNER!
’cept Bochy.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss is closing in on 200 at bats as pretty close to the worst hitting everyday player in the majors, that’s an awful lot of “letting the kid play.” His defense, by UZR at least, has been average. If that’s not sucking, then the definition must have been changed since the last time I looked it up. There’s a point at which giving Burriss some rope turns into letting him hang himself, and he’s dangerously close to that line. If the second option were Ray Durham or a similar washed up vet with no long-term future on the Giants’ roster, I would agree with you, but the replacement we’re talking about is also nominally a prospect, one with a much stronger minor league track record, and who is playing well in AAA right now.
Now, honestly, I think both players are future reserve at best, but so it’s not so much a “grass is greener” thing than “the grass is less brown and weedy, and there’s no rabid dog in that yard.”
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 7, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree with the spirit of the comment, but
Burriss’s UZR is actually -3.8. That’s bad. Really bad. Giving away a win per season bad.
There’s a very good case to be made that Emmanuel Burriss is the worst every day player in baseball.
by Steve on Jun 8, 2009 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
After Brian Giles, that is.
Jeepers, I hadn’t realized he was THAT bad this year.
by Steve on Jun 8, 2009 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
next time the Padres plays the Giants you can be sure Giles will get hot
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jun 8, 2009 4:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His high point is .277 and .339 OBP.
That is not a good high point.
The fact that the year Frandsen struggled he hit like Burris with more pop is self explanatory.
by DesertFox on Jun 7, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, seriously
Everyone was so disappointed in Frandsen that year and he hit for a .710 OPS, which would be almost 100 points better than Burriss is doing right now.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OBP is also traditionally inflated by hitting in front of the pitcher too isn’t it??
by SeeingStars on Jun 7, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
613
Wow, lots of pain there.
613…..OPS…the be all end all……
Everything I said stands, we want them to be patient except here because we are going to win it all this year……
Yes, we all know he flat out sucked in April, and since?
.308/ .352/ .702 OPS
Not a world beater to be sure, but sure seems like a strange time to send him down.
“Hey kid, thanks for putting the ball on the ground and using your speed, here’s a ticket to Fresno because you aren’t hitting for power”
So on that WORST regular in the NL?
Jordan Schafer .600
Emilio Bonifacio .588
Jimmy Rollins .576
Jason Kendall .572
Garrett Atkins .571
Brian Giles 557
Chris Young .557
Now you got a ton of “proven” players there, and “surely” they will around.
Schafer? Sent down after spending the last month with a .427 OPS
Atkins? Maybe sent down soon after a month of .482 OPS
Certainly comparing Burriss to the bottom of the league, ain’t exactly an endorsement……but he isn’t the second coming of satan with the bat and he looks to be improving.
We could go back and forth all day, and I know I am not changing anyone’s mind.
And honestly, I don’t think sending Burriss to AAA would necessarily be bad for his growth, I just don’t see why we have all this bile built up. Franny, yeah I would like to find out….but get rid of Uribe and get some time at 3rd
Uribe .678 OPS last year
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by merkin on Jun 7, 2009 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So on that WORST regular in the NL?
There are 172 players on pace to qualify for the batting title. Burriss’s OPS ranks 163rd.
Yes, we all know he flat out sucked in April, and since?
.308/ .352/ .702 OPS
Ahh, fun with Random endpoints. He’s hitting .174 in June. His career OPS is .654, shockingly similar to his .684 minor league OPS. Dude’s not a good hitter right now, and there’s a good chance that he never will be. Frandsen, for all his problems, might be. Both are under team control for a good long while.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 7, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fun with Random endpoints.
Oh come on, thats not the point, and you know that.
If I wanted to shade the stats, I could do better than that.
The point is he hasn’t nearly been as bad as April would indicate.
and yes 82 out of 89 for NL qualifiers.
Dude’s not a good hitter right now, and there’s a good chance that he never will be. Frandsen, for all his problems, might be. Both are under team control for a good long while.
Yes, and Ishikawa, and Guzman and another 100 players in the organization……so what the heck are we arguing about?
Like I said, I don’t mind giving Franny a chance…..but sending Burris down now doesn’t make sense….. and all the pent up frustration aimed in his directions doesn’t make sense…… especially when everytime I turn around I hear people saying “play the kids”…..well they ARE playing a kid for one, but apparently not the kid everyone likes
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by merkin on Jun 8, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sending Burriss down makes plenty of sense to me.
At least, compared to the only other likely alternative: sitting him on the bench.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 8, 2009 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
seconded
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 8, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, merkin
They are playing the wrong kid. Which is so typical of this organization.
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by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I had my choice out of spring
I would like to see Pablo at 1st, Franny at 2nd, Renteria at 3rd and Burriss at SS
Now considering it doesn’t look like the org intends on moving Renteria, Burriss, and Sandoval…..let Franny play 3rd
And he has impressed me at SS (in other words he’s looked decent), and of course he can play 2nd, so he can get some AB’s that way as well…
All that being said, getting back to the original post….I don’t think he is helping himself talking to the media… I’m sure the Giants would prefer to handle this in house….but then again, maybe he felt it was a last resort
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by merkin on Jun 8, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen has been tearing it up in Fresno. His MLE is respectable, but not awe inspiring. I got a chance to chat with him for about a minute when the Grizzlies were in Reno. He said fans continue to ask him “why” he has not been called up. He may think going to the media is his last resort.
At the very least he would be a nice choice for the utility infielder as opposed to Richie and Juan. To Merkins point, he has looked good at SS, and could fill at 3B.
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by nvsfg on Jun 8, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is he hasn’t nearly been as bad as April would indicate.
But nobody cited his April numbers, only his overall numbers. There’s no reason to use splits.
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by Cookyman on Jun 8, 2009 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does sending Burriss down make no sense? He’s been rushed, he hasn’t had much time in the minors and he’s showing that he’s not a major league quality player yet. Between his BABIP, his LD% and those numbers about how slow his batted balls are, I don’t think you can really expect him to improve much at this point in time. He has options. Seems to make perfect sense to me to send him down.
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by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, we all know he flat out sucked in April, and since?
.308/ .352/ .702 OPS
Ahh, fun with Random endpoints. He’s hitting .174 in June.
Lemmmi git this straight. You mock his random endpoint, then cite your own random startpoint, the last seven days?
I also don’t see the point in talking about Burris’ OPS, because he’s in the lineup to play good defense, get on base and score runs.
That .308/.352 is eerily similar to the .283./.357 he put up in 240 at bats last year in the majors.
Burris is 24 and he deserves patients just as we are when constantly reminded of our starting pitchers’ “tender” ages. I don’t see anything wrong with his defense right now that won’t be improved over time if he continues starting when September comes.
Once he is back in the leadoff role I would love to see him getting on base at a .350 clip (or better over time), stealing bases, and In general running the bases quickly and score lots of runs. Driven in by Rowand and others.
Schierholtz, Bowker and Guzman need to start getting enough at bats at the MLB level to complement or replace the regulars.
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by SneakToBetterSeats on Jun 8, 2009 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so basically the argument here is whether Manny is the worst player in baseball, or just one of the worst. Either way I think it’s time to give Frandsen a shot. Frandsen is hot at Fresno right now and it has to be frustrating to him to see Burriss doing absolutely nothing and still keeping his job.
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by rxmeister on Jun 8, 2009 4:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lemmmi git this straight. You mock his random endpoint, then cite your own random startpoint, the last seven days?
I don’t want to step in and speak for Bhaakon but from the tone of his post I’m pretty sure this was a mostly sarcastic response to choosing a random endpoint.
by paboperfecto on Jun 8, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can’t just remove his April because it was really bad and then act like the rest of his numbers are his true talent. APRIL HAPPENED. “OH HEY, IF YOU TAKE OUT THE PART OF BURRISS’S SEASON WHERE HE WAS BAD, IT DOESN’T LOOK SO BAD!” No shit. You could do this for any number of players. The fact remains that April happened and you can’t just throw it out. That’s not how the game works.
I really don’t understand why Burriss has become this sacred cow among this subsection of Giants fans. The guy is very likable. I like him a lot. But he’s not a major league quality player right now and I don’t understand why saying that is getting so many people riled up. I can’t believe I have to keep saying this but if we sent him down, that wouldn’t be the end of his career or something to be ashamed of … but it’s becoming increasingly clear that he’s just not ready and spending some time in Fresno (where he should have been in the first place, after spending all of last year in San Jose or Connecticut…) would not be a bad thing. It’s not a punishment. But when you have a guy who’s been the worst everyday second baseman in baseball in terms of OPS and you have someone else you can put in there who could outhit him, you should make the move. Especially if the first guy has had as wacky a development path as Manny has.
No one’s saying it’s going to save the team or turn things around but it’s well past time to admit that Manny just isn’t major league ready and could use some more time.
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PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that it doesn’t make sense to send him down NOW. It made sense to send him down a month ago when his numbers were even more terrible, but when a kid has shown signs of improvement it’d seem very strange to Manny that we would choose NOW as the time when he’s too bad to keep up here.
But I don’t really care about how Manny feels. Franny is obviously a better choice at 2B that they should’ve gone with from the beginning. sigh
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by lmaozedong on Jun 8, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s shown signs of improvement and then signs of regression all over again. His high water mark this season was May 10, when he had a .658 OPS (.287/.351/.307).
Since then, he’s hit .247/.286/.290 in about 20 MORE ABs than he had during April. Yes, he’s had a few hot streaks but hasn’t really shown any signs of sustained improvement.
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PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Eclipsed by Burriss"
This would really be unfortunate, if it were actually true.
Burriss is replacement level roster fodder. He should go play for the Royals or something. Oh, wait! The ROYALS have a 2B hitting .293/.346/.431 (woBA .337). That’s better than any infielder on the Giants except Sandoval! Their SSs suck though. I bet Burriss could play SS for KC.
Maybe the Pirates? Nope: Freddie Sanchez is raking at .311/.350/.468 (.358 wOBA). He’d pretty much be our best hitter (over replacement value). Burriss is also getting soundly out hit by Jack Wilson and his pathetic .302 wOBA.
In fact, not only is there no major league team for which Burriss could start, he’d probably be a back up on 1/2 the AAA teams.
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by zenbitz on Jun 8, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sure wouldn’t start him ahead of Downs, Frandsen, or Rohlinger.
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by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A: his opinion doesn’t really matter, he has no leverage here
B: he has very little trade value. He can be packaged with Madison Bumgarner to bring back every so slightly more than Madison Bumgarner alone would bring back
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 7, 2009 10:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
THIS +100000000000
K-Fran, I like you, but stfu. You have no leverage here.
by jctGamer on Jun 7, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He knows he’s better than Burriss, yet he continues to stay at Fresno. I certainly understand his frustration. He should be a little more patient though. He’ll be out of options next year, and the Giants will have to do something one way or the other.
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by rxmeister on Jun 8, 2009 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’ll also be too old to be a prospect next year. And his home organization would have played a .615 OPS guy all season rater than him. He needs to play NOW or he’ll be labelled a AAAA player, and then… well that’s it.
He may well be a AAA, but it seems like it is the organization and some bad injury breaks that are stymieing him. Not his play at AAA.
Repeat for Nate.
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by kennv on Jun 8, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not necessarily it. Though there are plenty of guys out there who never got a shot with their first organization and bounced a round a while until they were in the right place at the right time. During the St. Louis series Bags wrote a bit in his blog about how Joe Thurston strikes him as a future version of Frandsen — a guy who was a prospect but kept getting passed over and then after the options ran out finally surfaced somewhere else. In fact, the Cards are one of those organizations that seem to specialize in finding exactly these kinds of guys and plugging them in for some cheap production. It really is pretty easy to imagine Franny going that direction, opting for FA if they try to send him down next year, and hooking up with a San Diego or somebody and providing a couple years of nice cheap production for some team.
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by Roger on Jun 8, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand his frustration too
my whole point was that him “wanting out” is not anything to be concerned with because he can want out all he wants and he has no power to make that happen.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 8, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather see him at SS than Renteria. I think Frandsen can hit .300 in the majors, but I am uncertain about the power and OBP.
by Squire_Boone on Jun 7, 2009 10:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Frandsen can hit for decent power and get a decent OBP in the majors, but only average BA. Which is essentially Burriss with power.
by i wish we were good on Jun 7, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Major League Numbers
Frandsen AB 374/ .243 AVG/.248 slg/.311 obp/7 Hrs/ 4 SBs/26 BBs
Burris AB 427/ .272 AVG/ .311 SLG/ .338 OBP/ 1 HR/ 24 SBs/ 36 BBs
Burris has 50 more at bats, so similar sample size. Frandsen has power, but Burris gets in base more.\
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 7, 2009 11:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
hey
Burriss’s #s have come in pretty consistent PT. Frandsen’s have not, outside of 2007 (where, again, he outhit Burriss by a significant amount.)
How about their minor league numbers?
Burriss: .285/.347/.337
Frandsen: .328/.391/.461
Now, one can argue that Burriss’s minor league numbers aren’t very indicative of his talent level because of the lack of time he’s spent there and… EXACTLY. He needs more minor league seasoning and badly.
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PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 7, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good argument
for Frandsen to stay as Mayor of Fresno now that McClain’s gone
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by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 6:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Joe Borchard is running for Mayor of Fresno, and I for one hope he takes the office.
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by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also worth noting those minor league numbers for Burriss contain 62 at bats above AA level and that Frandsen’s contain 742 at bats above AA level. So Frandsen has consistantly outhit Burriss throughout their minor league careers and at a much higher level.
I really don’t see any possible logic for having Burriss on the team ahead of Frandsen at this point & it never made sense in the first place. When you’ve got a player performing at sub-replacement level over a long period of time & another player with a much better track record who’s almost certainly going to outperform him it makes no sense to keep carrying on as we are. Especially when we’re not talking about veterans here, we’re talking about 2 similarly rated “prospects”.
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by GiantFan on Jun 8, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JR Phillips had good minor league numbers too. They are irrelevant.
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by LargeFarva on Jun 9, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Phillips was terrible in the minors for a long time before putting together some good seasons in hitter's parks.
Frandsen’s hit everywhere.
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by Bhaakon on Jun 9, 2009 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except in SF
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Alex HInshaw "Why?"
Robby Thompson ,"You'll see...."
by LargeFarva on Jun 9, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss has hit nowhere, including SF.
I don’t see how he’s winning this competition.
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by groug on Jun 9, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sonofabitch…
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by JRPhillips on Jun 10, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t let the door hit your Franny on the way out, Kevin…
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by S.F. Giangst on Jun 8, 2009 12:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I said it in ST, I said it when Burriss was declared the starter, I said it all throughout April, and goddamnit, I’m saying it again:
As a Major League 2b, right now, Frandsen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Burriss.
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by Viliphied on Jun 8, 2009 12:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted Trade Frandsen purely for Frandsen. The guy is a good player and it’s pretty clear he’s not going to get a shot with the big league club. If we are going to get our starting 2B out of the system, it’s going to be Burriss. At this point it’s better for Frandsen’s future to get in another farm system.
by quincy0191 on Jun 8, 2009 1:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I want Frandsen to get playing time at MLB
because then we won’t have to hear anymore about what a marvelous wizard of hitting he is. I’ve seen people recently say Burriss is not a prospect because he’s 24… what does that make the 27 year old Frandsen? As noted above, they’ve had almost the same amount of playing time in MLB and posted pretty similar numbers. And he’s been injured, seriously, twice.
And I agree 100% with the idea (where have you gone, Brian Dallimore) that players should get a chance to succeed before they waste away. But no one has ever shown why Frandsen eats lightning and craps thunder, based on not much MLB playing time. Batting .300 in Fresno/PCL doesn’t quite impress me as much as it did when Ish, Niekro, Dallimore, and many others did it.
I’ve seen Burriss run and field, and while I don’t think he’ll ever hit the 45 water shots everyone demands of the 8th place hitter on this squad, he does both of those things better than Frandsen, or more likely everyone else in this system. Would he have been helped with more time with coaching in the minors? Probably, but unfortunately he’s in the Ginats system, so that’s not an option. He seems to be getting a lot of help from Kelly who was his manager in Augusta, and that’s probably more than he’d get in Fresno or CT.
Anyway, I’d be perfectly fine to see Aurilia run out of town or sent to Fresno (or better yet given a coaches’ jacket and assigned to work with Burriss) and have Frandsen split some playing time. Mostly so that all the many drinkers of Frandsenberry Kool-Aid can finally see their precious pretty Kevin in the fog. He deserves it as much as Ish or Fred or Niekro or Ortmeier or Linden or whoever- but not a whit more.
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by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 6:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice strawman arguments
No one has called Burriss “not a prospect”. In fact, a large part of the argument as to why he should be sent down is because he IS still a prospect and could potentially be a major league regular at some point but he’s not ready yet.
No one is demanding that Burriss hit 45 splash hit HR, but as I’ve said elsewhere, it’s a far cry between a sub-.300 SLG and a Bonds-ian one. I, for one, would be quite happy if he slugged like .350. I’m not sure that’s ever going to happen. The fact that Burriss hits 8th shouldn’t mean we shouldn’t be looking to upgrade at second base. You can always use upgrades, anywhere, especially on a team like this that has so much trouble scoring runs.
And no one thinks Frandsen is some special sacred cow who would hit .330 with power if he played in the majors. But it just doesn’t make much sense to have a guy who will more than likely outhit what you have rotting away in Fresno and seem to have no desire to do anything about it. As has been pointed out, in the one year where Frandsen got significant playing time, he had about 100 points of OPS on what Burriss is putting up right now. And that still wasn’t a very impressive line and most people were disappointed with it. At this point? I’d take it in a second.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
as above
I don’t see how the same averages in nearly the same number of plate appearance make everyone so convinced that Frandsen will suddenly step in and change something important (i.e. make Molina take a pitch or Renteria field or… etc.).
No one on a lousy offensive team (offensive offensive team?) deserves a pass, but the untold story of poor 8 hole production on the Giants is a lot less compelling to me than the untold story of having no cleanup hitter for the second year in a row. Or a 3 hitter, for that matter.
I’ve gotten the impression (even in this very thread) that others really do see him as a sacred cow. And that’s fine. I don’t, and would be more than happy to see him be promoted and do well, or Burriss go to CT and be taught to hit. I just seriously doubt that either of those things will happen, even if the Ginats did that. As you guys have amply documented, for whatever reason they’re really enamored with the A ball promotion thing although I think Pablo is the only solid evidence they have of that working.
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by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob one key fact is Frandsen has posted those numbers against more advance opponents. That is not just a big difference that is a HUGE difference. That difference does not guarantee greatness or even goodness but it does guarantee less severe concentrated suckage for a lesser amount of time. And sometimes less severe suckage is the best you can do.
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by daveinexile on Jun 8, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand...
Concentrated suckage can be quite enjoyable when done right.
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by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet...
This is the Giants Brass we ae talking about so what are the chances to do “it” right?
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 9, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Frandsen hits well enough, he can move up in the order, and move another player to the 8 hole.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Jun 8, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have several 8-hole hitters.
the untold story of poor 8 hole production on the Giants is a lot less compelling to me than the untold story of having no cleanup hitter for the second year in a row. Or a 3 hitter, for that matter.
So, what? The Giants shouldn’t bother to try to make an upgrade unless it’s to get a middle of the order hitter? That’s a pretty ridiculous argument. The Giants don’t lack for candidates to bat 8th. This is an awful offense. One of the easiest ways to make a huge positive impact on a weak lineup is to replace the worst hitter with a competent one. Turing worst hitter in the majors into a league average bat can have as much impact as turning league average into Chase Utley. The point isn’t to upgrade the 8th spot, it’s to reduce the number of 8-hole quality hitters in the Giants’ everyday lineup.
Is Frandsen a competent hitter? His minor league numbers suggest he is, but who really knows. We do know, however, that Burriss is not right now.
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by Bhaakon on Jun 8, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. If you’re looking at trading for a new 2nd baseman to bat 8th in the lineup, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. But for a completely free change, why wouldn’t you look at Frandsen at 2nd?
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by JRPhillips on Jun 8, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
baseball-reference actually HAS
these splits:
Our 7th place hitters have been above average (sOPS+ 110)
1st, third, and 5th place hitters have been average-ish (sOPS+ 94-99)
The bad ones:
2nd: sOPS+ 54
4th: 67
6th: 72
9th: 65 (our pitchers can’t even hit… like pitchers)
Ironically 8th place has a sOPS+ of 90… which I guess is above replacment level (ca 80-85?)
Total team OPS is .688 which I guess would put us between a 7th and 8th place hitters. Not sure it’s fair to include pitchers… oh, look at that. Giants 7-9th hitters (minus pitchers) have an OPS of .704, which translates to a sOPS+ of exactly 100.
So, the Giants (not including pitchers) are like an exactly average team of 7-9th (non pitchers) hitters.
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by zenbitz on Jun 8, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(our pitchers can’t even hit… like pitchers)
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by quincy0191 on Jun 8, 2009 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
make everyone so convinced that Frandsen will suddenly step in and change something important (i.e. make Molina take a pitch or Renteria field or… etc.).
y halo thar another strawman! No one is saying that he will do those things. ONLY THAT HE WILL BE AN UPGRADE OVER BURRISS. Come on, dude.
We can’t give Burriss a pass for truly horrible production simply because he’s an 8th place hitter, especially when we have a pretty obvious solution. Why is this so hard to understand?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would settler for the fact that he MIGHT be an upgrade over Burriss, it would be damn near impossible for him to be worse. Can anybody really argue that it’s not at least worth a fucking shot?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 8, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More than you’d think, apparently.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you, really
ONLY THAT HE WILL BE AN UPGRADE
That’s what I don’t get. I get that Burriss is not hitting. I don’t get that Frandsen WILL be an upgrade.
Might? OK. I actually went back to make sure: I didn’t anywhere in this thread say that Frandsen shouldn’t get to play, or even that I don’t want him to. I didn’t say anywhere that he’s a bad player, or not good enough to play in this sandbox. There’s certainly room for Renteria to “take a break”, as well as Burriss. I just don’t get that folks are convinced that he WILL be an upgrade. Or that replacing the guy who actually has a higher OBP than the regular catcher, and is .003 behind the $9M regular shortstop is anything more than fixing a leaky porthole on the bow end of the Titanic.
I appreciate having my say, and will shut up now. I didn’t get the groundswell for Frandsen in preseason and in the offseason, and I still don’t. Nobody here has explained why he went to the plate 16 times this year and did not get a hit, or why 25% of his MLB AB (i.e. his 06 season when he batted .215) should be ignored because they “skew” the sample, or why Burriss’ 24 SB are worthless compared to Frandsen’s 4. I promise to cheer wildly if he hits the 7 home runs he’s projected to hit over a full season based on his ML performance so far. He’ll probably lead the team, which would make me happy for him and very sad for the team.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I don’t get. I get that Burriss is not hitting. I don’t get that Frandsen WILL be an upgrade.
Burriss is hitting so badly, it’s phenomenally unlikely that Frandsen wouldn’t be an upgrade.
I just don’t get that folks are convinced that he WILL be an upgrade. Or that replacing the guy who actually has a higher OBP than the regular catcher, and is .003 behind the $9M regular shortstop is anything more than fixing a leaky porthole on the bow end of the Titanic.
The regular catcher has been godawful. The $9M regular shortstop has been terrible. But they are on free agent contracts and have to stay on the team. Burriss has been worse and doesn’t have to stay with the team. Burriss is still young and can go to the minors and work on his game and hopefully get better. Molina and Renteria, as bad as they’ve been (and they haven’t been worse than Burriss because they have actually been able to hit for some power at some point this year – slugging is really important too and just evaluating based on OBP is no way to look at a player – and Burriss has had power so bad that I don’t think the word abhorrent conveys a hundredth of how bad it’s been), also have been major league players at some point in their career and are much better bets to return to that level than Burriss, who hasn’t been even an okay hitter since he was a 22-year old in low A-ball.
Nobody here has explained why he went to the plate 16 times this year and did not get a hit
Bad luck. It happens.
or why 25% of his MLB AB (i.e. his 06 season when he batted .215) should be ignored because they "skew" the sample
Because his true talent level is much more likely to be closer to the season after that when he had an OPS in the .700s, which Burriss can only dream about right now
or why Burriss’ 24 SB are worthless compared to Frandsen’s 4
Because stolen bases are like nineteenth on the list of ways to evaluate players offensively, so they don’t really matter that much.
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by groug on Jun 8, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just wondering now
Because stolen bases are like nineteenth on the list of ways to evaluate players offensively, so they don’t really matter that much.
15 times (24 SB less his 9 CS) he got on first and ended up in scoring position. Taken with his 12 career doubles, that’s 27 times on 2B, compared to Frandsen’s 12 career doubles and 4 SB for 16 times on 2B. It’s got to count for something. I realize it’s not OPS, and it doesn’t make him a good hitter, but it got him to 2B more often than Frandsen has in similar MLB playing time.
If you count Burriss’ successful SB as 2B, his SLG goes to something like .339, which is still crummy but makes that number almost the same as Frandsen’s “true” 2007 season SLG. His career OPS becomes .677 to Frandsen’s career .658.
Also, FWIW, if one enters “Kevin Frandsen” in the Yahoo search box the most common search seems to have been “Kevin Frandsen girlfriend”. Hopefully she’ll be watching in SF soon enough.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 9, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Erm, that’s a pretty flawed way of doing it unless you’re also going to take away the 9 singles he got & then threw away by getting caught stealing.
And if you’re looking to add value due to his SB then you’ll find that he’s stolen them at a rate lower than the average break even point so he’s actually cost the team by attempting to steal bases & would have been more valuable if he’d not attempted any steals.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Jun 9, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
flawed way of doing it unless you’re also going to take away the 9 singles he got & then threw away by getting caught stealing.
Very right, s/b .325 career SLG (.006 below 2007 Frandsen) and .663 OPS (.005 above career Frandsen).
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 9, 2009 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007 Frandsen slugged .379.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 9, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The “average break even point” would only relate to the equally-fictional “average hitting club”. With a club like the Giants with no significant power threats, the break even point probably moves well above 80% and closer to 85%. That’s a function of the fact that with fewer baserunners, each baserunner becomes more precious if you hope to score the projected number of runs needed to win.
In a way it’s a bit of a value trap when you’re dealing with a club that needs to win with singles and walks. There’s always the temptation to try to manufacture runs with steal and sacrifices. But the only base that counts is the 4th one, so conserving outs is a huge key, since you need somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 on-bases before you tally 3 outs on a light-hitting team.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
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Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™
by S.F. Giangst on Jun 9, 2009 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it actually works the other way & the break even point gets lower on a poorer offensive team. Given that we don’t get many hits & don’t hit for much power, a runner on 2nd is worth more proportionately to the Giants than a better hitter team (as to score a runner from 1st you need 2 hits or an extra base hit)
it doesn’t make a huge difference to the break even point though & it doesn’t really matter as Burriss is still below it meaning he gains no value from his stolen base ability.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Jun 9, 2009 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, GiantFan, is right. The lower the run environment, the lower the break even point is. When you have a lot of power, you have a better chance of getting the runner home from first, so getting the runner to 2B isn’t as important as it is for a team that only hits singles.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 9, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On Sb’s.
I enjoy a well played small ball. I saw a good bit of growing up. (Yes, we would run zig zag patterns to on the way to school back then to avoid the T Rex; “they could not make rapid course adjustments”). But really what a fast base runner does is add a bump to the following hitter’s wOBA. The bump is only added if:
1. The Faster base runner is not allowed to run into outs.
2. The hitter is willing to work the count.
Since the ’07, ’08 & ’09 Giants are steadfastly against #2 SB’s are not that relevant in the short term for the Giants and probably as long as Big Head is the Giants’ manager I rather doubt the status of #2 will ever change if he can help it.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 9, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they aren’t nearly the same averages… in the season where Frandsen got significant PT, he out OPS’d Burriss by 100 points.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one on a lousy offensive team (offensive offensive team?) deserves a pass, but the untold story of poor 8 hole production on the Giants is a lot less compelling to me than the untold story of having no cleanup hitter for the second year in a row. Or a 3 hitter, for that matter.
Well, we unfortunately don’t have a replacement 3-hitter in Fresno. But we DO have a replacement 2B who would most likely out-hit the current 2B. And while the current 2B is perceived to be “great” on defense, most statistics that measure a players effectiveness on defense suggest that he is not. And considering that the replacement 2B was recently on the major league squad playing SS, I’m sure he can more than adequately handle the defensive responsibilities at 2B.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 8, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
The most we could get for frandsen would be a ok 23 year old prospect
we aren’t going to get any value from him
by lehmsbobby on Jun 8, 2009 8:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
in baseball mogul...in 2013 after i traded fransden he hit ..331 = dont trade him
yea right who cares, hes a bum that played at Bellarmine and cant hit MLB but sounds like a nice guy on KNBR
by cazzuno on Jun 8, 2009 11:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"cant hit MLB"
The argument isn’t about whether Frandsen can become a good hitting 2nd baseman.
It’s about who we prefer to have playing 2B, Burriss or Frandsen.
Neither look like fantastic options, but certainly one is better than the other.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 8, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Call it intuition...
But since the offseason, I’ve reeeeaaally felt that the Giants were going to trade Sanchez and Frandsen for Uggla…. And it had nothing to do with wanting it to happen, just that I thought it would for some strange reason.
Now it really seems like a strong possibility.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 8, 2009 11:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I love the intuition
but there is not fucking way the Marlins make that trade.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 8, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not after seeing him pitch two days ago
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt that really makes a difference
if he gets hot between now and the trade deadline.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 8, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly not just those 2...
Maybe a Henry Sosa, John Bowker or Nate Schierholtz thrown in.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 8, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coming out of Spring Training, the Giants could’ve avoided all the roster snafus they’ve had by simply giving Frandsen the 2B job, and having Burriss play SS everyday in Fresno.
Burris hit for a higher average in ST. So what? Frandsen was no slouch, and teams send down prospects who tear it up in ST all the time. It’s called being PATIENT, and using foresight to build a roster. Burris could’ve used the at-bats in Fresno, and if Frandsen was shitting on himself in the majors they could’ve made the switch very easily.
Now we have an old SS who isn’t hitting, and no upper-level replacement should they find it neccesary to DL, trade, or DFA him.
Make the switch, already.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 8, 2009 12:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t get the Renteria hate. I’ll gladly take the .240 average because he hits .300 with RISP. On a team with absolutely no offense that’s huge. In contrast, Burriss is a .270 hitter in his MLB stints and hits under .200 with RISP.
by SeeingStars on Jun 8, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One should not make any decisions based on BA w/ RISP. Renteria is barely outhitting Burriss at the moment and he’s currently playing below average D. There aren’t many positives to Renteria at the moment.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 8, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are a few positives
like the fact that his walk rate is the best of his career, or the fact that his BABIP is well below his career average, despite a pretty high LD%. At least there’s still a possibility for improvement this season, which is a lot more than I can say for Burriss.
by superk1ng on Jun 8, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was only referring to his hitting.
by SeeingStars on Jun 8, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he plays SS, so his defense cannot be ignored. My original comment was looking at his value to the team, even though I didn’t specifically refer to his defense.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 8, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case, I agree that defense has been too shaky.
by SeeingStars on Jun 8, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I call it the "Jerry Lee Lewis" defense
Between him, Burriss and Lewis, there’s been a whole lotta shaky goin’ on
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain wants in on it too
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by groug on Jun 8, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goodnes gracious!
I forgot about that
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 8, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, you are willing to forgive his .239/.318/.318/636-OPS line, with obvious sub-par defense, because he somehow bats .300 w. RISP? if he’s such a great hitter, why can’t he hit .300 in any other situation? BA w/ RISP is a pretty fluky stat.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 8, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, if he hits .000 with no one on and 1.000 with RISP then I’d be happy. I personally think situational hitting is important especially on a team without power. I think 1/2 our starting lineup is hitting below .250 with RISP which contribute to so many failed rallies. As to why he can’t .300 in any other situation, I obviously don’t know why he personally can’t but there’s several reasons why certain hitters function better in these situations (Windup vs. set or defense shifts).
Of course this isn’t taking defense into account since your original post revolves around his hitting.
by SeeingStars on Jun 8, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might agree with you if Renteria were batting 8th, but a .239/.318/.318 hitter sitting in the 2 spot kills a lot more rallies than he helps.
Even then, the argument could be made that the lineup would be more productive with Burriss and Frandsen in it. Either way, Burriss and Renteria need to pick it up or be replaced.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 8, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My one rationale for Renteria/Frandsen over a Burriss/Frandsen combination is that I’m seriously doubting if Burriss can hit anywhere other than in front of the pitcher. The RISP argument on Burriss is that I think his slap hitting approach is more likely to result to fielder’s choices than RBIs/Hits. Ideally, he’d make a great lead-off man, but I just don’t know will he ever be able to hit consistently when pitched to as opposed to around.
by SeeingStars on Jun 8, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.239/.318/318 hitter in the 2 spot.
That I would say is the Big Head’s fault more than Renteria’s.
But tten there is a lot about Big Head’s line up cards that not desirible. He still instists on managing the talent he does not have rather then working with what he has got on hand.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 9, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wtf happened here?
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 9, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That I would say is the Big Head’s fault more than Renteria’s.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 9, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone's arguing that situational hitting isn't important.
They’re arguing that situational hitting isn’t a dependably repeatable ability. Renteria’s current .300 avg w/ RISP has very little bearing on how he’ll hit with men on base the rest of the way. While we can take solace in the fact that he’s made up for a portion of his general suckitude with clutch hitting, there’s little reason to think that he’ll continue to do so. In fact, his overall struggles strongly suggest that he won’t continue to do so.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 8, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On this bunch of banjo swingers
you also have a small sample size problem. Like getting on Lewis’ case for “not driving in runs”. He’s driven in a billion ghost runners already!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
card carrying Bochy Hatter
by natteringnabob on Jun 8, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Driving in Ghost Runners
Sounds like a great name for the giants’ 2009 highlights DVD.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 8, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s such a great hitter, why can’t he hit .300 in any other situation? BA w/ RISP is a pretty fluky stat.
That’s what I’ve always wondered. I’m an admitted contrarian, but I’ve always wondered why we lionize the (mythical, IMO) hitter who performs substantially better in “clutch” situations, when we should really be asking why he’s dogging it in non-clutch situations. When a student procrastinates away a semester before finally pounding out a 20-page term paper the weekend before it’s due, we don’t go “wow, way to come through under pressure” we say “You could have earned an A if you’d gotten off your lazy arse two months ago.”
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 8, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and thus my sig.
Actually, the complete paragraph it’s taken from says this:
For me, Williams is the classic ballplayer of the game on a hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Baseball is a game of the long season, of relentless and gradual averaging-out. Irrelevance—since the reference point of most individual games is remote and statistical—always threatens its interest, which can be maintained not by the occasional heroics that sportswriters feed upon but by players who always care; who care, that is to say, about themselves and their art. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter’s myth, he is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 8, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. My personal favorite bit of baseball writing ever.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 8, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ignores all other comments
Would any team really give this guy a shot to start at 2B for them next year?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 8, 2009 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of ex-Giants currently on the A’s, Rajai Davis made a pretty sweet catch in CF yesterday.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 8, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a team would have to be in pretty sad shape for their brass to say “hey, you know who should be our starting 2B next year? Kevin Frandsen!”
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 8, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
however
there’s a bunch of teams in the same/worse shape than the giants who’d think something like “hey there’s this guy with a pretty good MiLB line, who’s available for pretty cheap, maybe we should give him a shot.”
It’s the kind of signing we’ve been clamoring for Sabean to make for God knows how long now. (and what we thought we were getting with Phelps/McPherson)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 8, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 8, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 8, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Would” not “should”
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 9, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/adds Manny Burriss to list of argument inducing Giants, right under Cain and Sanchez’s names.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 8, 2009 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fred Lewis dominates this list these days.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 8, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants' starting outfield
NOT THE GODDAMN PROBLEM.
(not that you were saying that)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 8, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/tips cap
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 8, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not in on the Lewis hate
but it’s not exactly part of the solution either. I’ll give it “tolerably mediocre!”
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Jun 8, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Klinesque in his okayness
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 8, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ding Ding Ding
though wished you would have added replaceable
by wilriv21 on Jun 8, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss is epically bad
That is a fact. Kevin Frandsen’s floor is just bad. That is an improvement.
Kevin Frandsen’s Minor league track record suggests that he has a pretty good chance of being ok, and potentially good.
Burriss’s minor (and major) league track record suggests that he isn’t very good at baseball.
I’m not sure why there is any argument at this point…
by FairweatherFan on Jun 9, 2009 9:53 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Sometimes you read the post you should have made and bang your head for not making it.
This is one of those times.
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by groug on Jun 9, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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