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Arguing the Call

I just wanted to know if ANYONE has EVER seen an ump reverse a call on ANY play (not involving instant replay). I've never seen it, and I've never seen any ump look like they might consider it. When the players/manager come out to argue, they usually end up yelling while the ump looks bored and annoyed.

My problem with it is that it NEVER seems to help, and if you get tossed for arguing, then you're hurting the team. I'm not saying some close calls don't deserve a good "Dude, seriously" but the in-your-face insanity that some players/managers seem to get into is just stupid. The ump isn't going to reverse the call, and then you're going to get tossed, which is less important for managers because a) they're pretty much a vestigial organ anyway and b) most of them sit in the clubhouse and send orders up, so tossing them doesn't do too much.

Does anyone think Carlos Zambrano's temper tantrum was actually going to make the ump go "Yeah, you're right, he was out, and I'm sorry"? Because I've watched a lot of baseball, and I've never seen a reversed call except on instant replay.

So I'd offer this piece of advice to all those players and managers out there: If you feel the call went the wrong way, politely, quickly, and quietly make your position known, don't repeat yourself for more than a minute, and don't expect to get your way, because if you get tossed the team is what gets hurt the most. I know tempers can flare, but goddamn it we're paying you millions of dollars to play this game.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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There was actually a Sunday Night Baseball game a couple weeks ago where Joe Mauer got hit by a pitch, but it was ruled that it hit his bat. Gardenhire came out to argue, and the home plate umpire reversed the call.

Mauer went to first base, the bases were loaded, then Morneau hit a grand slam.

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by groug on Jun 5, 2009 4:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I’ve seen plays like this. Also, if the runner running inside the line to first is a play that can be reversed possibly if the umpires collaborate after a manager argument.

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Wronghanded Affeldt pitches right

by Giant among Angels on Jun 5, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most famous of those

was in the ’69 World Series when Gil Hodges successfully pointed out the shoe polish on the ball from where it had hit Cleon Jones in the foot.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Jun 6, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Leading to one of the silliest memes that persists among fans to this day: "Check the ball for shoe polish!"

There hasn’t been shoe polish on shoes in 20 years. Yet fans still yell that on pitches close to their batter’s foot. It would show no polish. It’s like the “PITCHING IN NY MEANS YOU GET A CY YOUNG, BECUASSEE VOTERZ DON”“T KNOW BASEBALL WEST OF HUDSON RIVER.”

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 6, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some players still use shoe polish on their spikes.

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Wronghanded Affeldt pitches right

by Giant among Angels on Jun 6, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Support, please.

I have read on many occasions that this isn’t true, that athletic footwear isn’t the old style leather anymore, that it’s either the soft kind or that it’s synthetic.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 6, 2009 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I should have wrote “that I am sure some players still use shoe polish”. I obviously never played in the bigs, but I had teammates in college that would polish up their spikes before every game.

I thought it was stupid because as you said that they are synthetic.

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Wronghanded Affeldt pitches right

by Giant among Angels on Jun 6, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When in fact

Nobody in the National League east of Houston has won a Cy Young in the last ten years.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jun 8, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea, I was watching that game. Macha was livid after they changed it and he nearly blew a gasket after the grand slam.

by deuce deuce on Jun 6, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve seen umps persuaded to call a conference with the other umps, which has resulted in a reversal. I’ve never seen a ball/strike or balk call reversed.

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by Goofus on Jun 5, 2009 5:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea. This is the only situation I’ve ever seen. If it’s a single ump, you have to go with their call. If another ump had a good view on it and saw it different, then they can reverse it.

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by WalrusMan on Jun 5, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 5, 2009 5:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is incredible

by kimmyg on Jun 5, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This I like.

by SFGuy on Jun 5, 2009 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

omg

lol in my hotel room all by myself

by FairweatherFan on Jun 6, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i haz lol pain

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by S.F. Giangst on Jun 7, 2009 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have pain from trying not to lol at work.

by paboperfecto on Jun 8, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, it’s a game of emotion, and sometimes people flip out. I love that tantrums, and wish the Giants’ had a manager who would occasionally flip out, grab first base, then give it to some random fan on the 3rd base line. That would be great.

by tyrannoman on Jun 5, 2009 5:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I remember the umpire reversing a call (incorrectly I might add) in a UC Irvine vs. Wichita St. game during the college baseball super regionals a few years back.

by sunnyd100 on Jun 5, 2009 7:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

In many cases, they know they’re not going to get the ump to change their minds, but they’re hoping it will factor in to the next calls that they make, particularly when it comes to balls and strikes.

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by rxmeister on Jun 5, 2009 8:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ditto

I’ve never seen a reversal, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen hundreds of “make up calls”.

Not unique to baseball, either.

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card carrying Bochy Hatter

by natteringnabob on Jun 5, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tantrums will only lose your team calls later in the game, but a subtle comment as you suggested might gain an advantage. Players should control themselves, but it is an emotional and a tense game at times. I think a lot of managers get thrown out arguing calls to protect a player from getting into it with the ump and getting thrown out themselves. Better to have Bengie in the game than Bochy in the dug out.

by shaolinironlion on Jun 5, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ve seen the umpires reverse a balk call at what was then SBC Park. I don’t remember the exact game.

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by capnk on Jun 5, 2009 10:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think I remember this too

I recall being struck as it was the only time I’d ever seen a call reversed like that.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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by zenbitz on Jun 6, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

there have been plays where umps reversed their call

Merkel’s boner comes to mind. There are several plays a year where a call is reversed. Nevertheless, a manager may get irate and argue to decrease the likelihood of such a call again, ie; it has worked for years for Bobby Cox of the Atlanta Braves. Secondly it can send an emotional message to the guys in the dugout or in the field. For some teams and players this can be positive.

by bradleybear on Jun 5, 2009 11:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t doubt that plays involving MULTIPLE umpires get reversed, because I think the ump making the original call is probably far more likely to listen to the other umpires (they are slightly more impartial after all…).

The thing that pisses me off (unless it’s Bum getting tossed) is when they get thrown for arguing balls and strikes, which seems to me the most common. And it seems like (with the possible exception of the UC Irvine game) umpires just don’t go back on what they said. So I don’t see the point in arguing other than to let the fans know you think it was a shitty call and you’re willing to fight for them. Arguing because you get all hot and bothered is just stupid; emotional people rarely make good arguments, they just piss people off with their excessive intensity. And pissed umpires lead to players getting thrown out.

I would like to see more umpires actually listening to managers though, because sometimes it was obviously a blown call, and frequently in an important situation, and the manager handles it well and doesn’t get overexcited, but the umpire still brushes him off. You’d think he would go, “Fine, I’ll talk to the first and third base guys” because they can probably give some sort of opinion."

And they really need to extend instant replay use. I know they don’t want to be stopping the game all the time, so they could institute a challenge system, but IR can be put to much better use in getting it right. And that’s all that matters (unless it goes against the G-men).

by quincy0191 on Jun 6, 2009 12:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

1) arguing a call is definitely about getting the next halfsie call swung your teams way, not about the argued call which won’t swing no matter what

2) arguing a call to the point of ejection is definitely about firing up a moribund team and thereby getting them to post higher BABIPs and lower DIPSes and all the other shit that managers apparently have influence over

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Jun 6, 2009 3:05 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jermaine Dye

Did anyone see a couple weeks ago when he hit a weak grounder to 3rd and faked that it hit off his foot? They ended up looking at the ball and reversing the call, and then he hit a single.

I forget who the mlbTv host was, but they commented on a player who admitted to faking a foul ball off their foot after their game was over.

Pretty funny move. I think I’d try it as a play just to get a kick out of pulling it off.

by Fresburg on Jun 6, 2009 9:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Bud Black convinced the ump to reverse at least twice last year

I was impressed. There’s some managers who are better at this than others.

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Jun 6, 2009 10:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is funny

I am watching the CHI-A and LAA ALCS (game 5) this morning on MLB Network.
 Chone Figgins was batting, and Adam Kennedy was on first. Scoscia called a hit and run and Chone hit the ball down the RF line and the a fan reached over the fence and grabbed the ball. Initially, The umpire called it a GR-Double. Then Scoscia came out argued which forced the umpires to get together and they ruled it was fan interference and allowed Kennedy to score.

It looked like the umpires were going to stay with the initial call, but when Scoscia came out to argue (or at least ask the umpires to talk to one another about what they all saw) the umpires changed the initial call.
So there you go.

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
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by Giant among Angels on Jun 6, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Book rule double, not a ground rule.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 6, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rule relates to a ball which touches the ground, thus it’s a ground rule.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
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by S.F. Giangst on Jun 7, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If joking, that's quite funny.

If not joking… it’s still quite funny.

For everyone else, though: “Ground rule,” of course, refers to rules that are specific to those grounds (the ivy at Wrigley; the speaker cables at the old Kingdome; the catwalks in Tampa Bay; the vertical line on the brick wall in dead center field and the green metal on top of the right field wall in our own beloved ballpark, etc.). Book rules are, of course, rules in the book. For example, it is a book rule that a ball that lands fair and bounces out of play is a double— that’s not a ground rule, because it is true on all grounds throughout the universe. Jon Miller always gets this right; most announcers get it wrong. I think it’s just because the only way they know to describe something that wasn’t a natural double is as a “ground rule double.” It’s a book rule double. If it is dictated by the rulebook, it’s not a ground rule.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 7, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those should be known as “ground’s rules” since they pertain to the specific sporting ground on which the event is played.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™

by S.F. Giangst on Jun 8, 2009 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean like R’sBI?

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by Lyle on Jun 8, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen calls reversed

Didn’t the infamouns Molina/Burriss home run last year fall into this category ?

Also, arguing calls is about trying to get a make up call. The ump isn’t gonna change his mind but if he knows he is wrong he will make it up to you.

Players arguing balls and strikes is about their next at bat, and the next time that ump is behind the plate. The umpires review their games, and if Randy Winn argues a called 3rd strike (civilly) and the umpire later sees that he blew that call – then the next time that ump is behind the plate and Randy is up he might make it up to him.

In any business/aspect of life, it’s easy to wrong people who don’t speak up for themselves because there are no consequences. The umpires want to be fair, and if a player civilly tells them “Man, I don’t think that was fair” They are gonna think about it a little.

And they will remember it next time.

Antics like Zambrano’s I believe only have a positive effect if the umpire later views the play and see’s that he got it wrong. In that case, I believe that umpire would be more inclined to lean Zambrano’s way a little next time he is on the mound.

It’s politics.

by FairweatherFan on Jun 6, 2009 11:56 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

molina/burriss homer

That used instant replay didn’t it? Cause the OP said not counting instant replay.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
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by raisingcain on Jun 6, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only reason I don’t include instant replay is because if the manager calls for it there’s a MUCH better chance the call will be overturned. That’s an actual review of the play, not a reversed call.

by quincy0191 on Jun 7, 2009 2:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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