Contemplating Cain
After watching the game tonight and really after watching Cain pitch all year I started to wonder about some things.
First and foremost is the notion that perhaps Cain should just pitch from the stretch period. I know we have all heard or seen the stats but they are worth repeating because they are quite frankly unbelieveable.
Bases Empty / From Wind-Up - .326/.384/.449/.833
Runners On / From Strecth - ..150/.250/.230/.480
What do you think? Should Cain go from the stretch?
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Nope.
Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.
by Anticon23 on Jun 5, 2009 12:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If Cain figgures out how to win he could win 300.
by ktice on Jun 5, 2009 12:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard to describe with statistics, but it seems like Cain bucks up with runners on and starts getting nasty. They say he’s mentally strong -dealing with his severe lack of run support and all- so this year he’s harnessing all his mental toughness this year in not leaving it up to the offense to play catch up and he’s stranding them runners.
I’m just stoked i got his rookie card signed this year at fanfest and now he’s 7-1. Matt Cain for All Star berth and Cy Young!
Keeping on SWOOPing in the free world! Also, by the reflexive property of the rubber/glue playground comeback, I enjoy wearing hats on my ass.
by SneakToBetterSeats on Jun 5, 2009 1:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
<It’s hard to describe with statistics, but it seems like Cain bucks up with runners on and starts getting nasty. >
He must be hanging out with Wilson too much.
The San Francisco Giants: Where old men go to die.
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jun 5, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will always cringe when a Giants’ pitcher is named to the All Star team. Nothing good ever seems to come from it.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 8, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
woah that line was a total accident, i just tried to make —
Keeping on SWOOPing in the free world! Also, by the reflexive property of the rubber/glue playground comeback, I enjoy wearing hats on my ass.
by SneakToBetterSeats on Jun 5, 2009 1:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Before anybody says anything
Matt Cain career with bases empty: 2.23 K/BB, .232/.307/.368.
Matt Cain career with runners on base: 1.70 K/BB, .235/.322/.372.
That’s not to say that he’s worse with the runners on, his splits are almost identical to the league ones. You’d expect pitchers to pitch worse with runners on, because when they pitch worse, they allow more base runners. It’s called selection bias.
It is to that this year’s splits are too small a sample size, and that his career splits don’t show any ability to throw better from the stretch/in the clutch. So no.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 5, 2009 3:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's not just stats, but mechanics too
I agree with everything you say, but if this season’s numbers continue to a big enough sample size where it’s significant, pitching from the stretch should be considered.
It comes down to his mechanics. The NPA teaches mechanics where the windup isn’t really necessary or even helpful. From the wind up or the stretch, you get to the same and stop before bringing your momentum toward home. There’s probably more things that can go wrong out of the windup than out of the stretch because there are more moving parts. I’m going to watch some tape of Cain (Goofus Jr. had a game yesterday, so I recorded the Giants game) and try to figure see how his two deliveries compare.
You’d expect pitchers to pitch worse with runners on, because when they pitch worse, they allow more base runners. It’s called selection bias.
In addition, with runners on base you have more to think about than just the pitch AND have an infield with more holes because of holding runners and covering on steal attempts. the fact that Cain is doing so much better so far with runners on is pretty remarkable, small sample size aside.
A lot of relievers pitch exclusives from the stretch; it’ll be interesting to see if starters do too.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 5, 2009 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything you say, but if this season’s numbers continue to a big enough sample size where it’s significant, pitching from the stretch should be considered.
First of all, it should be noted that Cain K/BB is still significantly better with nobody on, even this year. The main he reason he’s looked so good with the runners on so far is his .159 BABIP in those situations, compared to .398 with the bases empty. That is almost entirely due to luck.
Second of all, even ignoring the probable flukiness of his success from the stretch, it’s almost impossible for one year’s, let alone two months’, worth of splits to be that significant a sample size. These kind of splits really fluctuate from year to year. Take Lincecum, for example – in 2007 he was clearly better from the windup – 2.71 K/BB compared to 1.87 from the stretch, .619 OPS against compared to .752. Then in 2008 he was absolutely incredible from the stretch – 4.56 K/BB compared to 2.49 from the windup, .526 OPS against compared to .677 – that’s way better splits than what Cain has shown this year, and in a sample size 3 times larger. But now he’s back to 2007 mold posting better numbers from the stretch.
Even if this year’s splits mean something, which I don’t think they do, it’s still not enough for me to mess with Cain’s mechanic
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 5, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I’m not disagreeing, but will again point to mechanics.
Pitchers are always working to perfect their mechanics. Perhaps Cain has found a more consistent delivery or arm slot or whatever out of the stretch. I have no idea. My only point is that the notion shouldn’t necessarily dismissed outright. If Cain feels more comfortable out of the stretch, I’m sure he’ll consider it.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 5, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just something to throw out there – just because we know BABIP has a lot of variance and over time regresses to some mean doesn’t necessarily mean we really know how much of a pitcher’s performance over a given time period (with a BABIP much different than their mean) is due to luck. Like in Cain’s performance, we know his BABIP in those situations is unsustainable and will inevitably rise, and it may be it’s almost entirely luck, but we can’t definitively say how much is just plain luck (or defense or whatever other factor).
At least not right now, maybe someone can track all the pitches and balls in play, do a lot of research, and come up with some measure of it…
by Missing Barry on Jun 5, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If his walk rate were significantly higher (it may be, I don’t know) from the wind up you may have a point, but I still would hesitate to restrict him to pitching from the stretch. I think it’s as simple as he’s pitching to contact more with nobody on base.
I’d be curious what those numbers look like if you take the first inning out of the equation, Cain like most power pitchers is susceptible early and near lights out late.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Jun 5, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants need to stop worrying about whether he should pitch from the stretch or windup and start dangling him out there for someone like Corey Hart.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on Jun 5, 2009 6:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Never in a million years
I can’t imagine Hart wearing sunglasses at night would do anything for him other than make it harder for him to see the ball, both in the field and at bat. If they’re going to trade Cain they need to trade for someone who doesn’t wear sunglasses at night.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Jun 5, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Either you have fallen into the sarchasm or I want some of whatever rxmeister has been concocting for himself…
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by Johnny Disaster on Jun 5, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think you fell further down the sarchasm well. unless you were being sarcastic, which would then mean i’m the one…
well, you probably just missed the hart – sunglasses at night reference.
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
by tellusfrank on Jun 5, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My brain malfunctioned at the ‘trade Cain’ part.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 5, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t switch the blade on the guy in shades, oh-no
by jhiat00 on Jun 5, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lulz
GROUGTHINK ALERT
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by groug on Jun 5, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One Acronym
by FairweatherFan on Jun 5, 2009 8:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bay Area's Best Irish Pub?
That’s rather subjective
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by merkin on Jun 5, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Ass Bowl of Italian Pasta?
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by Johnny Disaster on Jun 5, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Annoying Bothersome Intentional Puppy
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 5, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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by Natto on Jun 5, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
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by walkoff baltimore chop on Jun 5, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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by NuschlerFace on Jun 5, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 5, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain’s career BABIP is .282. His BABIP this season is .285. His LD% says his BABIP should be up around .300, so it’s not like he’s do for an enormous regression.
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by Chulk on Jun 5, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His BABIP overall is where it should be – LD% isn’t a good judge since Cain, from all evidence, seems to be one of the few pitchers who actually can sustain a low BABIP.
I think Fairweather Fan was referring to BABIP with runners on…
by Missing Barry on Jun 5, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nobody on BABIP 0.387
runner(s) on BABIP 0.150
nobody on K/ PA = 18.5%
runner(s) on K/PA = 15.0%
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by merkin on Jun 5, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He meant his BABIP with runners on.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 5, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think more pitcher ought to try this on a game to game basis, especially if they are having better command from the stretch. I believe Lincecum did that a few starts ago.
I really like how Cain has been able to drop a occasional curveball in for strike one. Hitters rarely swing at it.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Jun 5, 2009 9:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Cain seemed to be really mixing up his pitches yesterday, which probably helped throw off the Nats. He also seems to be pitching a lot more aggressively this season, going after hitters, instead of nibbling. Better run support aside, I think his approach to games this year is largely responsible for his improved results (the vagaries of win totals reflecting pitching performance notwithstanding….)
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 5, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great comments
Great comments here on this topic. A few thoughts of my own.
First, Matt Cain’s amazing success thus far this season while pitching from the stretch will almost certainly decline over the rest of the season, with his ERA going in the opposite direction.
Second, perhaps the most exciting factor in Matt’s recent outings is that he hasn’t yielded a homer in his last four games and has yielded only one in his past six outings after giving up five homers in his first five games.
In three of those five outings, Matt actually induced more ground balls than fly balls, which is unusual for him. But last night he yielded 7 fly balls to only 2 grounders. And his line drive rate was high. An increase in his home run rate could be coming.
On the positive side, Matt equalled his season high in strikeouts with 7 — in only five innings. Matt has also walked only four batters in his last three games and 10 in his last five outings.
Regarding the stretch, I think if a pitcher is struggling with his control, it can be a good thing to switch up by going to the stretch. Pitchers don’t seem to do so very often, but Tim Lincecum has indeed done so on at least two occasions.
Getting that first pitch in for a strike is BIG. As was mentioned, it is hard to look for the curve on the first pitch, so if a pitcher can get it over, he’s ahead of the game as well as in the count.
By the way, for all the other things Tim Lincecum has been doing well, getting that first pitch over hasn’t been one of them. Tim has declined from 59.1% to 57.5% to 55.9% over his first three seasons.
And it isn’t as if hitters are killing Tim when he get his first pitch in. He’s getting up close to 2000 first pitches now, and only 8 of them (2 this season) have been hit for extra bases. I"m thinking Bengie should be calling for more first-pitch fastballs. After Tim has gotten batters 0-1, they are managing only a meager .439 OPS against him. When he has gotten behind, their OPS is .790. When they have put his first pitch into play (which they have done only 30 times this season), their OPS is .770.
Tim is throwing far more secondary pitches this season, with his fastball percentage having dropped down to 58% from about 67% in his first two seasons. I think that is the primary reason his strikeout rate is up — and helps account for how well he has pitched after getting ahead in the count.
By the way, a stat that is sure to shock you: 100%, yes 100% ,of Tim’s strikeouts have come after two strikes.
by sharksrog on Jun 5, 2009 2:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
Don’t try and frighten us with your sorcerer’s way Lord Sharksrog. I knew this was another Tim post disguised as a Matt post.
I’m onto you!
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 5, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It took him 11 sentences (and one fragment with a colon at the end) to mention Tim Lincecum
New record!
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by groug on Jun 5, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone!
In this and the other, older Cain thread (“consistancy”) should read this article:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-one-about-sample-size/
Also links at the bottom on regression to the mean.
I mean, unless you are already a stats whizzard.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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by zenbitz on Jun 5, 2009 3:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that reminds me of a story...
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by merkin on Jun 5, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're a cool dude(tte?)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Jun 5, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I mean, unless you are already a stats whizzard.”
Good thing I am, because I sure as hell don’t want to read anything!
by Missing Barry on Jun 6, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Prospectus did a piece a couple days ago that made some very interesting observations about how Cain was generating more movement on his pitches with runners on, helping him to get out of tough spots. This might be the statistical smoking gun that supports the claim that Cain “bucks up” with runners on — but it’s possible that it’s just another sample-size mirage.
I think an important thing to remember about pitching from the stretch, though, is that it’s supposedly more taxing on a pitcher because it requires more of the energy in a pitcher’s mechanics to be generated by fewer moving parts (specifically the arm). I say “supposedly” because I’ve never seen any statistical evidence to support this — I’m not aware of any sort of precipitous loss in velocity from the stretch vis-a-vis the windup. But that is what Krukow and other pitchers have said, so it has to be considered.
I say we hold off on any sort of dramatic “always pitch from the stretch” suggestions until Cain’s numbers have a chance to regress a bit — it’s true that his splits are dramatic, but it’s important to notice that he’s been almost exactly as (over)effective from the stretch as he has been (under)effective out of the windup. In other words, his numbers from the windup have deviated from his career bases-empty stats by a margin remarkably similar to the margin between his 2009 numbers from the stretch and his career numbers in the same context. We should expect regression to more sustainable levels in his numbers from the stretch, but we should also expect to see some reverse-regression (progression?) in his numbers from the windup. Does that make sense?
by Rick Parker (Lewis) Can't Lose on Jun 5, 2009 6:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not advocating for the permanent stretch but…
It may not be the stretch per se, but that with runners on you can’t take your time loading up. Less momentum generated by your legs/body means your arm needs to work more to achieve the same velocity (in other words, you’re replacing momentum with muscular effort). So going from the stretch with bases empty really isn’t the same as doing it with men on base.
The theory is that eliminating the wind up can potentially help you to find your rhythm or arm slot or whatever by simplifying your motion.
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by Johnny Disaster on Jun 6, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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