Trade Philosophies for the Giants: Rebuilding vs. Reloading
by Grant on Jun 26, 2009 1:27 PM PDT
214 comments
New feature: Explain to Grant Just How He’s Wrong, Stupid, and Ill-Informed. Today’s topic after the jump! Or you could just skip to the comments and explain away. Your choice.
Stipulation #1: Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Pablo Sandoval, Buster Posey, Angel Villalona, Madison Bumgarner, and Tim Alderson are off the table. Everyone else in the organization is fair game.
Stipulation #2: All or nothing. If the Giants can’t replace 3/8ths of the lineup, they shouldn’t give up any prospects for rent-a-players. If the Giants can make an honest-to-goodness major league lineup using rent-a-players, do it as long as it doesn’t violate stipulation #1.
Stipulation #3: For players who are not free agents for three years, Tim Alderson and Angel Villalona are back on the table.
I’m not going to go through a list of names and officially rosterbate, but I’m caught in the middle of two philosophies:
a. The Giants should focus on building a sustainable contender.
b. Any team that makes the playoffs has a chance to win the World Series, and the Giants have two top-o’-the-rotation-to-you starters right now. There are no guarantees the pitching situation will be the same in future years.
Stipulation #1 satisfies "a." for the most part. It doesn’t completely blow it out of the water, at least.
I’m worried about trading Nate Schierholtz and Jonathan Sanchez for Adam LaRoche, to give one awful example, not doing anything else, and falling short of the playoffs because this offense + LaRoche isn’t exactly an automatic contender. I’d rather fail spectacularly, whiffing on the playoffs after an honest attempt to add three hitters and build a lineup that doesn’t feature Bengie Molina as the cleanup hitter.
Now it’s your turn to Explain to Grant Just How He’s Wrong, Stupid, and Ill-Informed. You can also throw something in about my body odor, but that really wouldn’t be relevant to this specific post.
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I pretty much agree with you.
Uh, I mean
GRANT STINX!!!!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 1:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I want UGGLA!!!!!!!
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 26, 2009 1:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you're wrong
But I also don’t see any scenario where the Giants can replace 3/8 of their lineup without doing trades with three different teams. And while there’s still a month before the deadline, hasn’t the complaint the last few years among all the teams been that it’s really hard to make mid-season trades anymore?
Any team gutting their payroll and unloading their high-value players are going to want good/great cheap, young players who are controlled for the next few years. Guess who we have who meets that criteria? Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Pablo Sandoval, Buster Posey, Angel Villalona, Madison Bumgarner, and Tim Alderson. .So it doesn’t seem likely the Giants can be buyers, even if they want to be, without making a trade at least half of us will hate.
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 26, 2009 1:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think I would take Tim of that list, yeah he will be cheap next year but when he hits arb you better watch out!
Cole Hamels got a 3yr 20 mil contract for some decent pitching. Tim has a Cy Young! Has a Cy Young winner gone to arb recently?
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 26, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim’s almost certainly becoming arb eligible this winter as a Super 2. I wouldn’t be surprised if he exceeds $10 mil next year.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hamels was more than decent
Dude was the MVP of the World Series. That is pretty much on par with a Cy Young. Or, should I ask, would you rather Matt Cain was the Cy Young this year or the World Series MVP?
by FireBrianSabean on Jun 26, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Doyle was almost World Series MVP in 1978 and his pay was to be sent back to the minors the next year. Amazingly, the guy who beat him out for MVP of that series was Bucky Bleeping Dent, who hit .417/.440/.458.
But the illustrious list does include Scott Brosius, Bucky Dent, Ray Knight, Pat Borders, Rick Dempsey. It’s not exactly the best way to judge a player’s quality, and I don’t it’s ever been the #1 consideration for a player’s annual salary.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On par with a Cy Young?
Former WS MVP:
Livan Hernandez
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laughed Out Loud (in my imagination)
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
by bkrhater on Jun 26, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter what happens or (doesn’t), we’ll complain about it.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Paranthetical fail.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Matt Holliday?
I realize his contract is up after this year…but do the Giants want to contend with other teams and get into a bidding war for Holliday, or is it better to trade for him now, and retain his rights when he becomes a FA and sign him to a long term deal?
DECISIONS DECISIONS@*&#&*#@
by ramin on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would think that he’ll test the market if a team picks him up during a trade.
by xanthan on Jun 26, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh.. true, but I think Holliday will be an excellent asset to the Giants for the future. Hopefully he does well this year, but not well enough to get a huge contract. I think this year will determine if he gets a 4yr 80 million dollar contract or a 4yr 50 million dollar contract. Yikes
Cy Lincecain FTW
by ramin on Jun 26, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve jumped on the Holliday bandwagon as well…… would a package of Neal, Sosa, and one of Lewis/Schierholtz/Bowker get it done? Best case scenario we get to the playoffs with his help and sign him long term in the off season or we get two comp picks to replace Neal and Sosa
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Boras isn’t going to let a trade lead directly to a contract extension. Honestly, if you want Holliday, I say we’re better off waiting til the offseason and bidding with everyone else.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jun 26, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying we would sign him to an extension…. just that I wouldn’t mind a trade as long as we could get back some of the talent we lost by offering arbitration and getting a couple comp pics.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
didn’t there used to be some kind of Holliday/Cain beef a couple years ago?
by FPTV on Jun 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. I can’t seem to find it anywhere but, Cain hit Holliday with a pitch. Not intentional, but HBP. Holliday got his shorts in a twist anyway. I guess a 94 mph fastball would do that to you.
Anyway, Holliday was giving Cain the “Stank Eye” throughout the game, and finally homers off of him in the late innings to give the Rockies the lead. As he’s running around the bases he’s laughing at pointing at Cain.
I Have not been able able to get on the Holliday bandwagon since. I realize that is a stupid reason not to like a guy, but he just seems a little too douchey for me. In this case, emotion trumps STATS.
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 26, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a punk. Now he’s stuck in Oakland losing millions as we speak.
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like when the woman with the left field lower reserve tickets heckles him for his giant head.
Come to think of it, I like it when she heckles any visiting left fielder, for anything.
by FPTV on Jun 26, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Holliday is only a piece of the puzzle. I don’t think he can do it alone, nor do I think he’ll be able to ever reproduce his Colorado numbers in a park like S.F.
As for the A’s, I’m pretty sure they’re just waiting for the trade deadline to approach, so they can get better offers. The Giants have some good prospects to give them for him, despite being a rent-a-player or not, and still not violate stipulation #1.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im pretty much in this mindset also
Get a bat somehow though.
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 26, 2009 1:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Adam Kennedy might actually be a nice, probably low-cost guy to get. I can’t imagine Beane asking for much more than a C+/B- prospect for him. His prOPS is right around .844, so it doesn’t seem like what he’s doing is a mirage. I think he’d a be a great, cheap fit at second.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s funny to think that Ray Durham would also really help us out right now too. Most likely.
by xanthan on Jun 26, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I miss Ray Durham.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To say nothing of Mark Grudzielanek
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 26, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, both are sitting at home right now. A lot of decent baseball players never got deals this offseason. Jim Edmonds had a nice little resurgence last year and he’s still unemployed.
by xanthan on Jun 26, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know we wanted to play the kids, but imagine where we’d be right now with Edmonds at 1st and one of those other guys at 2B.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 26, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this would be ok, presuming Beane isn’t looking for more than a C+ type guy. As a recent fanpost argued, replacing our current second base production with someone who can just be average or slightly better than that could make a huge difference. This, plus maybe a Nick Johnson type deal is what I’d be looking to do. The corner OF situation, meanwhile, I think we should be more wary of… between Schierholtz, Winn, Lewis, and Bowker, I think we’ll be ok there, maybe not great, but ok.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jun 26, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy would be cool. He’s probably having the best year of his career. He’s already 33 though, and to me would be considered a rental, assuming we had a 2nd baseman that was ready to come up and play next year, which I don’t think we have (maybe Noonan if he’s ready). Kennedy would be a cheap addition to fill that void for a year or two, I would think… especially with his career .983 fielding percentage. I’d give up a couple mediocre prospects for him in a heartbeat.
Get him and Holliday in a packaged deal, and you’ve got a contending team for sure… look out Dodgers.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a whole thread on Holliday+Kennedy to the Giants
With both McCoven and AN’ers participating:
http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2009/6/23/922229/matt-holliday-to-the-giants
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Jun 27, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think after the next 4 weeks of play, settling back to our true talent level will convince most of us (but not necessarily Brian Sabean) that we should not be buyers at the trade deadline, thus rendering this speculation moot.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 1:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pessimistic whiner.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 26, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree with you Lyle, but I think even if our pitching dipped (which is certainly a possibility, especially in the bullpen) I still think we’re a good bet to stay in contention all the way through based not on our true talent but the rest of the league’s. There’s just not a team in this league outside of LA that I’d give a warm bucket of spit for. And even if our play declines, I don’t know who’s play is likely to pick up enough to run us out of wild card contention.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I agree there are no other super-teams in the NL this year – with the possible exception of Dodgers. Assuming Manny Ramirez returns, and does his usual thing, I just don’t see us beating them in the playoffs, were we to get that far. And I fear two things if we continue to “contend”:
1. Sabean will trade away a young player that we will need in a couple of years.
2. Sabean will trade for a player who will not be good in a couple of years.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that falls into the whole different discussion of should we be keeping a GM who we’re always afraid is one step away from doing something stupid. To be honest I think he’s going to get to the deadline and say he didn’t see any value deals (much as he after most of the recent trade times). Maybe that’s just me being optimistic? And I’m more than fine with that. The warm bucket of spit contention theory works with the mess of a roster we currently have as well as the one we don’t have, and it does less damage.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Traitor!!!
Roger would give a warm bucket of spit for the Dodgers!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant to… to the Dodgers.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought this was their true talent level
Who’s exactly playing above their norm? And even if Pablo starts swinging at balls in the dirt (and misses them) or Rowand falls apart in the second half again, we still haven’t seen Winn’s hot streak or Bengie’s.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 26, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain and the bullpen are probably play a bit over their heads. But mostly they’ve just been winning a lot of games that could go either way.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be fine with just adding one player
especially a 2B where damn near anybody would be an upgrade. Even if it doesn’t work out I’m not going to lose much sleep over giving up a couple of B or C prospects. I also think they should look to add somebody in a salary swallow kind of trade that won’t cost much talent (like Miguel Tejada).
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 26, 2009 1:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was just going to say I’d prefer to just be who we are and set up for something sustainable with the one exception of the possibility of bringing in a decent 2B. Actually I’d try to see if DeRosa could be had for something that didn’t hurt too badly. If a bidding war develops I’d back out, but you never know when somebody overplays their hand. He’d be a pretty good addition to this team.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa would be fine, if they didn’t want Jonathan Sanchez. I don’t like giving up talent for a rental player, unless the rental player was worth keeping longer than 3 years…. and Derosa is pretty old, I believe.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. I wouldn’t want ot trade Sanchez for him. In fact, I fall in line with the thinking that you just can’t trade Sanchez right now because you’re selling so low on him and the potential is just too high to sell low on.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A better way to get to Derosa would be a package around one of our relievers…. the Indians pen is terrible!
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You bring up a good point
What would you do with Sanchez? Let’s say suddenly you are the Giants GM and manager, all wrapped up in one. Do you remove him from the rotation? Do you send him to Fresno? Do you make him a reliever again? Do secretly hope he improves from one of those scenarios so that you can trade him?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would move him to the pen and make him our situational lefty for the rest of the year. He is lights out first time through the order but then falls apart. That way we could trade someone from our bullpen who does have value and we could see if Pucetas can keep winning games.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know. You can send him to Fresno, but can we bring anyone up and “know” that the new kid will pitch better? We have no clue how someone like Pucetas will pitch in the majors, and we’re not in a position where we have time to really find out and give someone else a chance. I don’t think Bumgarner or Alderson are ready yet. Their “stuff” is good enough, but I don’t want to throw them into a 5 man rotation so fast.
I’d probably send him to the bullpen or something, just for awhile and see how he responds maybe?
Another issue… can we afford to not have Brian Wilson on that list in stipulation #1? I was all for trading him if we could get a bat in return, but he’s finally putting a string of games together where he’s just flat out un-hittable… not to mention, no walks his last 7 appearances.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I’d keep sending him out there and have Rags and RJ and whoever keep working with him. As 5th starters go he’s really not that bad, and the front end of the rotation is eating up enough innings right now that the bullpen’s hardly overtaxed. Right at this moment I think people are making it into more of a problem than it really is. He’s a 5th starter and he’s pitching like a 5th starter. There are clubs with major aspirations (and I’m looking at you Philly) who are struggling to get Sanchez like performance out of the middle of their rotation, not to mention the back end.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Sanchez situtation
Is one of those The Devil you do know Vs. the Devil you don’t.
We know what he will do, and he could get better. I don’t see him getting worse.
Puceteas, etc – however could certainly be worse, or could be better – we really don’t know.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I’m hoping it’s maybe a mental thing for him, and maybe some tweaking here and there can turn him into a dependable pitcher. He needs to figure out how to get through a lineup the 2nd and 3rd time around.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa: 13HR, .270, 50 RBI
Yes, trade Sanchez for him! This guy can hit. What can Sanchez do? Throw ball 4 up at helmet-level…Of course Sanchez has to have enough value in teams’ minds to even trade for, I don’t know if that is the case.
by Great Success! on Jun 26, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Stipulations 1 & 2 are mutually exclusive. Seems unlikely to get three quality players without touching the untouchables. BUT- I think 2 upgrades would be enough. Frandsen/Downs at 2b is enough of an upgrade over what we had that addressing 1b and a power OF might be good enough.
by thethrillisgone on Jun 26, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they could. Conceivably they could get Josh Willingham (Nats), Nick Johnson (Nats) and either DeRosa, Felipe Lopez or Adam Kennedy without giving up any of our top prospects. except for Willingham, they’d all be rentals and if the team picked up all of the salary we certainly wouldn’t have to give up any of our main dudes.
We probably wouldn’t have to give up many of our B level prospects either. I’m thinking the best minor leaguer we’d trade would be Henry Sosa or Pucetas. We might have to part with some major league talent a la Schierholtz or Lewis or even Bowker, but those guys are sorta interchangeable anyway right now.
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Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 26, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you answered your own question...
when you have to pull off replacement of 3 positions, your only option is to stick with what you’ve got and hope things go as well the second half as they have the first.
1. There is no way the Giants could pull of getting 3 quality players that are going to make a difference. Past experience would indicate that at least two of the three would end up playing worse than what the Giants already have.
2. Kills any chemistry the team has now. I know some do not believe in chemistry but I do :)
3. Giants pitching is going to be good for awhile and I’d rather build up to a championship quality team than to sacrifice everything on one shot with this current team.
by nofreetime on Jun 26, 2009 1:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
While generally agreeing with you, the pessimist in me says that people who rely on #3 often find out they were wrong. Injuries, declining performance, FA departures, and the bizarre variances of bullpen performance seem to kill teams set up for long haul pitching dominance on a frequent basis.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would not not acquire someone b/c of chemistry reason.
Would you not trade for Miggy b/c the club leader was DFA’d or was traded?
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 26, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thinking was that to acquire 3 quality players that there would be significant changes to the roster, not just a single player being lost from the team. This would not necessarily be true if most of those traded were minor league players, however, it just doesn’t seem this could be done if all the quality minor league players are untouchable.
I think everyone agrees the Giants are overachieving right now and I think a radical change to the lineup could be a detriment to this continuing. Of course, there always is the possibility that chemistry improves with the new players…
by nofreetime on Jun 26, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the subtext of your posts
namely, a team that needs to replace 3/8 of its starting lineup probably shouldn’t be worrying about doing that at the trade deadline
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 26, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m really getting stuck trying to figure out who’s in the 5/8 of our starting lineup that doesn’t need to be replaced. Hm… Pablo, Rowand….. Pablo, Rowand….. Pablo, Rowand….
Yeah, this is hard.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 27, 2009 5:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that upgrading at 2B and SS would be enough.
Replacing 3/8 of the lineup would require replacing 1B or OF but we have some young players at those positions that have been producing lately. Conceivably it would take a marquee player to be considered an upgrade at one of those positions the acquisition cost would be more than a middle prospect.
If it would be possible to trade Frandsen and Lewis to OAK for Kennedy and then Villalona, Renteria and $$ to HOU for Tejada, that would make a solid lineup.
Rowand CF
Kennedy 2B
Sandoval 3B
Tejada SS
Schierholtz RF
Ishikawa 1B
Winn/Bowker LF
Molina C
I think that giving up Angel would be worth dumping Renteria and picking up Tejada for a playoff push. I have not been impressed with the reports on his defense and attitude. He could still turn things around and has huge power but that is why he still has a fair amount of value in a trade.
by VizquelQuest on Jun 26, 2009 2:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no reason to trade Villalona – he is only 18 years old playing at high A ball and performing well, even given his recent slump. He will hit with power in the bigs – I was impressed with Pablito in A ball a few years back and I have been just as impressed with Villalona when I have seen him play- Do Not Trade Him -
by APGiantsFan on Jun 26, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Refer back to stipulation #1
You can’t be serious! You wanna trade an 18 year old for a 35 year old? I mean, for someone who “says” he’s 35?
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did mention that the reports on Villalona’s defense and attitude this year have been far from complimentary. IMO he has fallen from the untouchable category and it might be time to sell while he still has a lot of value.
by VizquelQuest on Jun 26, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fool of a Took!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jun 26, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, but you don’t sell him for 35 year old, free agent to be, horrible defensive shortstop Miguel freakin’ Tejada.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis and Frandsen is a lot to give up for Kennedy
by Lobsterkite on Jun 26, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Villalona as part of a trade for Tejada would send the board into melt-down mode. Not even Sabean could be that shortsighted, right?
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jun 26, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus
you want to give up Villalona for Tejada?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 26, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t mind Tejada in a salary relief kind of move though. But Houston runs things so strangely they’re probably not thinking that way right now.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m a huge proponent of acquiring Tejada, but giving up Villalona for him would be criminally stupid. The Astros wouldn’t even ask for Thomas Neal with a straight face.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 26, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed and agreed.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It looks like I might be undervaluing Villalona a little here but I was assuming that Renteria has a negative value. I guess if we paid part of his next year’s salary though it wouldn’t be that negative.
I don’t really know exactly what it would take to get one of these deals done but generally it takes more than one would expect.
The after lineup looks like it could contend in the playoffs to me and we dump Renteria.
by VizquelQuest on Jun 26, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why not just offer the Astros something like Tyler Graham and Craig Clark and tell them we will pay the rest of Tejada’s salary. That would be a very fair trade for a half season of a grossly overpaid Tejada.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 26, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
is he really grossly overpaid this year though?
He is making $14M but he is 2nd in the league in batting average, has a .365 OBP and a .487 slugging. I am not sure on his defense at SS but those are very good numbers.
by VizquelQuest on Jun 26, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s bad.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He seems very likely to fall off in the second half.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that upgrading 3/8 is unnecessary
I don’t know whether I would go with the exact deal you mention, but I totally agree that we don’t have to upgrade 3/8 in order to make a realistic campaign for the postseason.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 26, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of thinking out loud type of players.....
Lyle Overbay and Jose Bautista,
if we offered the blue jays pitching + positional replacement. It will also free up salary for Blue Jays to resign Holladay.
by jctGamer on Jun 26, 2009 2:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Overbay would be interesting, but who would we send them to replace him?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Travis Ishikawa!
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s funny because I have always hoped Travis Ishikawa would develop into an overbay type of player that gets on base with some pop.
by jctGamer on Jun 26, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
people assume the bluejays will be sellers this year
I just don’t see. more likely they’ll be trying to add some power.
plus, they are very deep in the pitching department (though, less so in the bullpen..)
by bobnothing on Jun 26, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please no Holliday. He has a wOBA+ of 106.
Yuck.
Just for reference, Fred has a wOBA+ of 102. And you guys seriously want to give up prospects for a 2 month rental of this guy?
by Nibbler on Jun 26, 2009 2:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Fred strikes out a lot.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade I'd look to make
I’ve beat this one into the ground, but Tim Alderson for Kyle Blanks.
It is the perfect combination of improving in ’09 and beyond.
I know the axiom goes you can never have too much pitching, but you certainly can have tremendous depth at that position.
Blanks is a 1B that is 23 years old (just promoted from AAA) and has never posted an OBP under .380. On top of that, he has great power and even more tremendous power potential given his age, rates, and frame.
This guy is ready to play right now and contribute at a higher level than Ishii, and we’ll have control of him for the next 6 years. Alderson is still a pitcher, and thus carries a higher risk of injury, I think it’d be a great move for SF and it would fully exploit the Padres position of having a logjam at 1B and a lack of pitching prospects at higher levels.
by NeifiChicken on Jun 26, 2009 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In principal I don't hate this idea
But I’m not sold on Blanks.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MADBUM FOR JEYSON HAWARD
wait … what?
by jctGamer on Jun 26, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I can find to dislike about Kyle Blanks is that he’s a RH firstbaseman. But the dude is 6’ 6" and seems to hit everywhere he goes. Much as I love Alderson, I’d have to think about trading him for Blanks. Villalona is just too far off to to plan around.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could get on board with this
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
I don’t know too much about Blanks, but if he’s rated highly, then trading a pitching prospect for hitting prospect would be the best way to go. No more of these 34+ year olds for our 19 year old pitchers or hitting prospects.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s probably an irrational worry, but I have reservations trading for batting prospects for teams like the Padres. I can’t claim to know a whole lot about their farm system, but when was the last time a position player they developed amounted to anything (Greene was a flash in the pan IMO)? If we’re prospect exchanging I’d be much inclined to trade with the likes of Texas.
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoak gets in my eyes
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the season progresses
I am becoming more and more in favor of rent-a-players.
Certainly, if we can trade someone not in group 1. for a player that is around for a few years, that would be great
But going after someone like Nick Johnson would cost less and help more.
My #1 pref would be to trade a package of value (likely including some of the prospects grant mentioned) for a 2b like Freddy Sanchez.
However, if that is not possible – I really like the idea of Merkin for Johnson or something a long those lines.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 2:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Freddy Sanchez is my favorite target too…. He is young, under controll, plays great D and would be a huge upgrade to what we have now. It’s not like we have a bunch of middle infield prospects that he would be blocking in the next couple of years either.
Pittsburgh fire sale please!
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m a big fan of going after Sanchez. If I were Sabes, Pittsburgh would be the first I called. Middle infield is this team’s offensive black-hole and 2B shouldn’t be too hard to upgrade.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 26, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what they’d ask for? They certainly didn’t take Atlanta for much on the McLouth deal.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sancez IS the type of player I would build a package around Alderson for!
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pittsburgh would appreciate the cost savings of not having to order new names and uniforms for Sanchez.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 26, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our sanchez for their sanchez
Eh Eh Eh?
by jctGamer on Jun 26, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say no to Freddy Sanchez
a) owed 8 million dollars next year
b) BA dependent player, and while he hits for good average, he’s due to regress
c) he reminds me a lot of Frandsen (or visa versa) so why not give Franny a shot and save money
by NeifiChicken on Jun 26, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
is that worth 3 million in 08 and 8 million 09?
by NeifiChicken on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freddy Sanchez
a) won a batting title
b) been a two time all-star
c) and so far this year has an OPS of .832 while only making 1 error and playing great D
Sanchez is easily a top 5 player at his postion, and while I think Frandsen has a chance to become a league average player, he will never do any of the things listed above.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think keeping Frandsen at 2B the rest of the year (or even Downs) is such an easy and effective upgrade, that we should concentrate on upgrading LF and 1B. Bowker would be my first choice for LF, again because it’s easy – we don’t have to trade away anybody. But we have no answer for SS or 1B (sorry, Ishi, I like you, but..). Let’s concentrate on SS and 1B in our trade discussions.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We don’t have to trade anybody to install Bowker in LF, but the logistics make it highly likely that we’d have to expose either Lewis or Schierholtz to waivers which amounts in the same thing.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, my reply to you is below. Being home sick sucks.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Lewis would be my clear choice. And if we exposed Lewis to waivers, would any team REALLY pick him up?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yes
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves, for example
Current Corner OF OPS+
85
61
70
105 (Matt Diaz, who seems to play mostly against LHP)
You can’t tell me they wouldn’t want to add him to the mix.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I knew you’d say that. But seriously, which team needs a LF with almost no power, who’s inconsistent defensively, who isn’t hitting for average, and who is a terrific person?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raja Davis got picked up in about a week after we placed him on waivers didn’t he. Fred >>> Raja.
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's actually use Rajai a lot
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jun 26, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a useful player. Also one that’s not as good as Fred Lewis.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
not like losing Davis kept the Giants out of the playoffs or anything, but I’m not sure Velez or Torres is such an upgrade over a fast good fielder who was cast away for nothing.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 26, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said above, Fred would be a perfect platoon partner for Matt Diaz in ATL.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except he's note
He still has the 3rd highest OBP on the Giants (regulars), he’s actually a plus defender, and he’s one of the only guys on the damn team who’ll take a walk.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Jun 26, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Royals would probably love to have him as well.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your San Diego Padres would for sure.
by jctGamer on Jun 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Today's lineup
Rowand CF
Winn LF
Sandoval 3B
Molina C
Ishikawa 1B
Schierholtz RF
Uribe SS
Downs 2B
Cain P
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 2:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF
I’m so angry that I have nothing to complain about.
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I'm angry about Winn over Lewis
Why? Why the hell is Winn given a free pass?
Line this year:
Winn: .265/.314/.381
Lewis: .253/.341/.392
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis strikes out a lot.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3rd outfielder
AT BEST!!!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jun 26, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winn’s defense IS better.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd complain about Molina still cleaning up.
Would rather see:
Rowand CF
Winn LF
Uribe SS
Sandoval 3B
Ishikawa 1B
Schierholtz RF
Molina C
Downs 2B
Cain P
Status: So pissed that the Giants sold my wall of Ks to Johnsonville Sausages, that I'm boycotting purchasing anything at the park, or patronizing their sponsers.
by GiantBrass on Jun 26, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer
Rowand
Downs
Schierholtz
Sandoval
Winn
Molina
Ishikawa
Uribe
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Schierholtz makes a better 5th/6th hitter because of his lack of OBP.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I give Downs two weeks before McC break out the pitchforks.
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know about pitchforks, but I really don’t think he’s going to stick around.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jun 26, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the difference between Frandsen and Downs is so small that it really doesn’t matter.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like seeing Uribe at SS instead of Renteria.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a very round left infield
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 26, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BODY BIAS
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this line-up…. I want to see Uribe keep doing well. Maybe he could be our solution to second base for the rest of the year.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 26, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like it. But why is Ishikawa 5th instead of Schierholtz?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ishikawa is better.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we certainly disagree on Fred and Nate.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s close, but Travis has a much better OBP.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Nate would improve on that with consistent playing time, but I defer to Travis’ better OBP at this time.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way Nate hacks away at 1st pitches, his OBP isn’t going anywhere his BA doesn’t go. And that doesn’t have anything to do with playing time — his numbers have been BA dependent throughout 1700 minor league and 400+ major league ABs. He’s always going to be a hacker.
Also, for all the talk about Nate’s inconsistent playing time hurting him, it’s worth noting that it’s really his amazing success as a PH (again all BA driven and virtually all singles) that makes his season numbers look at all tolerable this year.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that he’s a bad player, though. He’ll get more .SLG then Lewis. I see them as very different players who give you almost the same value.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he might for awhile, but without a major change in his approach (on he’s been distinctly unwilling to make in his career) I think major league pitchers will eat him alive once they’ve seen him a bit. Which is perhaps the same thing that’s happening to Lewis this year.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m less sure of that skepticism. Schierholtz used to strike out a ton, and he’s cut down on that. I’m not sure he’s the kind of guy who will have the same approach his whole career.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not entirely true. He had one season (his third pro season) in which his K rate took an extreme spike upward. Take that season out of the mix and his strike out rates haven’t changed that much over the years. His strikeout rate as a major leaguer (44K in 305 PA) really isn’t that different from what he did in his first full season as a 20 year old (93K in 542 PA)
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this lineup
Therefore, the Giants will score at most one run today.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jun 26, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks to Matt Cain being in the lineup.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PRESCIENT!!!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Inhouse replacements
2b: Kevin Frandsen
LF: John Bowker
5th SP: Kevin Pucetas
SF can send down Downs. The Giants can they attempt to trade Lewis/Schierholtz. Send down Sanchez to work on command/mental approach.
If SF wanted to make a trade they could inquire on Jermaine Dye, Adam LaRoche, Howie Kendrick etc
by wilriv21 on Jun 26, 2009 3:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Bowker deserveth a shot
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jun 26, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, posted this in the wrong palce
Winn: .265/.314/.381
Lewis: .253/.341/.392
Why the heck does Randy get a free pass? Only on the Giants will the 35 year old get the benefit of doubt over the 27 year old.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Jun 26, 2009 3:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Winn is all but certain to get moved. They have to bring up Bowker and Winn is a pretty solid player so I assume (and hope) all this playing time is to build trade value.
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We can only hope.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 26, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
People have been saying that for years. Randy Winn didn’t get traded when the Giants weren’t contending. Why would he get traded now?
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the 09 situation is a lot different from prior seasons.
The big factors being:
1) the contract year
2) youth movement only really started last year
3) market demand for OFs
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not getting traded
He’s a Bochy and Sabean favorite. Plus, they’re sold on his “track record” of second half success. Dude’s always been a much better hitter after the All-Star break. This isn’t a defense of him, I’m just sayin’ he isn’t going anywhere.
by FireBrianSabean on Jun 26, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus all we’re hearing is that team’s can’t take on salary this year. And whatever Winn’s strengths, I don’t know that he’s a guy you go over your budget for. If you don’t want to take on salary, you don’t want to deal for Randy Winn.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 26, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1) Jason Schmidt in 2006
2) Jason Schmidt in 2006
3) Jason Schmidt in 2006
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jun 26, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
4) Ray Durham in 2006
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 26, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
even after his long slump, Winn is about 3rd on the team in WAR. His defense is good, very good.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For one, Winn is a helluva right fielder for us.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALL OUR PROBLEMS CAN BE SOLVED BY TYLER GRAHAM
I like cats. Wings is the greatest show of all time.
by Norm Median on Jun 26, 2009 3:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No huge moves
Maybe a tweak here or there. A small deal for a 2B upgrade maybe. No need to blow things up over this season.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 26, 2009 3:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
2B Trade idea
Kick the tires on Kelly Johnson.
He’s got this year and 2 year’s of arb left. He was disappointing last year and is tremendously disappointing thusfar this year. Prado and Infante have both spend some time at 2B this year and have been far better. ATL’s clearly got problems in the OF and we have some guys that could help them.
1) Schierholtz – seems exactly like the type of player the Braves would love. It not only helps them now, but also in the future. Probably a tough pill to swallow, but to me Johnson is a much better player, and we have plenty of young OF’s that are just as good, if not better, than Nate.
2) Lewis – Clearly would help them, don’t know if they’d value him properly as they don’t seem like an on base oriented team
3) Winn – least likely on both ends, especially due to salary. The dropoff of Winn to Nate/Bowker could negate any upgrade from Kelly Johnson
4) Bowker – I want him to play LF, so that’d likely be a no.
His walk rates and strikeout rates havent changed too drastically this year, nor has power. He will get back to the player he wasl ast year (probably isn’t the player he was in ‘07) and we’d have him through his prime years.
by NeifiChicken on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kelly, Madison, and Geraldine, FTW
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
what my nephew said the other day when we flipped past the Braves-Yankees game when she came to bat
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 26, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Kelly Johnson.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 26, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves are my 2nd favorite team so I will nudge into this topic.
The big problem with Johnson is that he’s an OF disguised as a 2B. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2234&position=2B#standard.
by SeeingStars on Jun 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Schierholtz
Stats Nazis be damned. I want him to play every day for a while.
I like cats. Wings is the greatest show of all time.
by Norm Median on Jun 26, 2009 3:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
hey look I’m a nazi.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Hitler
This is worth a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okhiJjuefPw
by FireBrianSabean on Jun 26, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love almost all of those.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
by oldjacket on Jun 26, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
those are hilarious! I wish someone would make one about this team.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 26, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think they’re ready to dump their players, but Toronto might be a team with some good players to look at, once the trade deadline comes around (assuming they’re out of the playoff race at that point). Adam Lind and Aaron Hill are quietly having breakout years… not to mention Overbay and Rios are decent as well. They’re a team that needs pitching help.
Lind for Sanchez might be worth looking into later down the road.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
MARCO SCUTARO!
he was on my fantasy team once
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
except he’s old…. no more trade proposals for guys 34 and over.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was referring to that, but wanted a separate discussion for Lind and Hill.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and this thread is exhausting to read all the way through.
by aBulldog on Jun 26, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
This is a slow day for us.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 26, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have
No confidence in this administration to make a move that improves the team – whether or not they actually trade a prospect.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Jun 26, 2009 4:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I want the Giants to pursue any 2 of 2b/ss/of if we still look like legit contenders in 2 weeks.
Yes, I agree to Stip #1 as Grant laid it out.
I don’t think we need to upgrade 3 places, though. I think upgrading 2b and either ss/of would do it.
I don’t think any minor leaguer is a reliable upgrade at any of these positions; apologies to Frandsvestites and Bowkerizers. I want ML players who are reliable as upgrades, not a near total gamble. (Yes, yes— some of you think [fill in blank] is a semi-sure thing; some don’t. No point debating it the 4,291st time.)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 26, 2009 4:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Grant smells good.....
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Jun 26, 2009 6:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I farted
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I actually farted as I typed that. awesome.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 26, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think you’re right. I’m worried that they’ll trade somebody like Cain or Bumgartner too. I think they should wait and see what they can do with Lincecum, Cain, and Bumgartner in the rotation at the same time. They can get hitting from free agency.
Maybe they can trade part of their bullpen to get hitting that can help them win next year.
I think they should be playing Andres Torres, Schierholtz, and Ishikawa a lot because we already know the other guys can’t hit.
I wouldn’t mind if they traded Molina and Winn. It seems like some other team might give a younger guy that can hit and be around for longer during the Lincecum, Bumgartner, Cain era.
I’d rather see them not make a trade though than potentially screw up something that seems like it’s getting better.
by parisspleen on Jun 27, 2009 12:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i wanna see john bowker in the lineup instead of randy winn cuz he’s been slumping all year.
by homer555 on Jun 27, 2009 10:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Matt Holliday is a Coors Field hitter. Move him to a pitchers’ park, and you’ve got Fred Lewis.
We’re not contenders. Not really. We’re still rebuilding, we’re still acquiring talent. We’re in the wild card, yes, because teams like the Mets and Cardinals haven’t gotten hot yet, but any talent we trade for is going to be flawed, a la Uggla, or Dunn, or Kennedy. If we need another bat, let’s look at Bowker. If we need a 2B, trot out Franny and give him 300 PA. If we could get some real prospects for Molina or Winn, sure, make those deals, but otherwise, let them go as free agents and see what John Barr can do with more draft picks. But have you seen Thomas Neal’s numbers? We’re going to contend in 2011. Let’s not screw it up now.
by Giantsfan4life on Jun 27, 2009 11:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have them contending in 2012. Unfortunately the world will end also.
by SeeingStars on Jun 27, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fortunately, the world ends in December, so we can get that World Series championship before then.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jun 27, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do it cheap this year; eyes on the future.
I really think we could make a big upgrade with two cheap moves..
1. Bring up Bowker to man one of the corner spots. Even if you don’t believe in him, we need to find out if he can be a major leaguer, and his AAA stats certainly warrant a look. He showed pop in his first go around. His power is still there, he’s still hitting line drives (25%). And for the FIRST time in his career, he’s showing discipline at the plate, and walking as much as he’s striking out. Also, using the equivalency tool at ‘minorleaguesplits.com’, Bowker’s AAA line translates to .299/.380/.498. On a team starved for OBP and power, I don’t know how you don’t at least audition the guy.
2. Get Nick Johnson from the Nats. He shouldn’t be expensive. We should be able to get him for a package that doesn’t include any of our blue chip prospects.
It’d be nice to have something at 2nd, but I think it’d be more expensive. And I think getting those two bats in the lineup would be a big upgrade. It helps us compete in the short term, and doesn’t mortgage our future at all.
Also, I haven’t poked my head in here much recently, but I just want to point out that I was 100% RIGHT about the Renteria signing. Terrible, terrible move.
by Gregjitsu on Jun 27, 2009 2:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why all the hate on Ishikawa?
Since May 10th, Ishikawa hit .320/.400/.520/.920 with 4 HR in 75 AB. And for the month of June, he has hit .250/.289/.556/.845 with 3 HR in 36 AB.
On top of that, he’s been providing good defense too.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 29, 2009 12:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would rather take my chances on the future
Why blow away value to try to win this season? Sure, we have a chance, but it’s not a realistic or good chance. We should look to build up for the 2010-2015 period and peak in there.
I mean, I’m enjoying watching Sandoval, Ishikawa, and Schierholtz get hot. I would like to see how long they all can do that. And remember, the Giants current record is a contribution from the offense, as well as the pitching, and while the offense has been lacking for the most part, we still have the second best record in the NL.
Why take away time from Ishikawa and Schierholtz, time so that we can know this off-season whether we really need a replacement via free agency, or whether they can be our answer for the next couple of years or so? Same for Lewis and Frandsen at 2B.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 29, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sadowski’s pitching makes me feel better about losing Sanchez, even though it was just one start
by HeMissedTheTag! on Jun 29, 2009 7:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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